Why Melee is the perfect "kind" of fighting game

[red stone]

Okay, so i've looked over the reasons that I like melee and why it is better than other fighters. Now I"m not saying that melee is the perfect fighting game. That would be a flawed statement because melee has many balance issues. But isn't the ideal fighting game be very balanced while providing diversity, you may ask? This is very true which is why games such as virtua fighter gain much respect from me.

Melee excels in another area however which I think all games should have. That trait is its easy controls. Nearly anyone can pick up the controller and play this game. However, here comes the twist. The game leaves the option to become exceptionally skilled at it. This is what a fighting game should be. It should draw as big an audience as it can by having people have fun while playing it. However, players who practice more or have more skill should always and without doubt be able to beat casual players.

Melee I believe is the pinnacle of the above ideal that i've seen so far. I mean, i have not met one person who owns melee who thinks themselves as inferior at the game. In fact, over 90% of those people actually think they are extremely good at the game. This shows that the game has done its job of attracting and easing players into the game. However, if you've been on these boards long enough, you should know that melee also offers a ridiculous deep gameplay experience to those looking for it.

Melee is one of the few fighting games with easy to pick up controls, yet still offering unparalleled depth. There are many games which offer extremely technical gameplay, but only melee offers it as a separate path. You can choose the "easy" path or the "technical path" in melee. most good fighting games only offer the latter.

 

[Zjiin]

Are you talking about balance issues in YOUR version of Melee, or balance issues in the final PAL release? The two are very different.

 

[cykofox]

orly?




i agree.

 

[TheManaLord]

Yep, it's a winning equation. It's a wonder why other developers don't use it (except for old ****ty *** only ones or the upcoming TMNT one). I was hopeing it'd get spammed until another good one came out. Hopefully TMNT has shelldashing or something.

 

[neous]

Melee with ninja turtles and co op side scrolling would be great.

 

[AKARed]

I think a difference is that TMNT will have life bars although you can still ring out.

 

[rehab]

over 90% of those people actually think they are extremely good at the game

I am part of the other 10% lol

What I enjoy about melee is the freedom of movement, which you generally don't get from other fighting games, good though they may be. I would think melee is its own breed because of that.

Melee is supposedly very "option select" for some peoples' tastes at high levels. I wouldn't know because I'm not there yet, ha.

 

[LLDL]

Are you talking about balance issues in YOUR version of Melee, or balance issues in the final PAL release? The two are very different.

the list of differences between melee 1.2 and Melee pal isn't that extensive. There are like 15-20 differences in all -_- Still roughly the same EXACT balance *issues*. And while there are un-even balances, i wouldn't say they are issues. There is no game where every character roster is balanced OR is even closed to being balanced, although some people may think it. In fact, once a game is out for long enough, there will always be Top tier and Low tier. And there will never be perfect balances. Which is WHY, melee IS the perfect fighting game. Nobody has unlocked the games FULL potential, which is why it's so perfect. Not even Mew2king is frame perfect. Tech skill and mindgames keep going, even farther than what can be obtained through human practice. It'd take a super computer for us to see exactly how perfect the game REALLY is.

 

[TheManaLord]

also rofl at pal pal just sucks sorry.

 

[theONEjanitor]

the controls in fighting games are never really that hard.
Melee's simple move scheme does work well to attract casual players
but from a competitive standpoint, moves that are harder to do simply widen the skill gap, which in most cases is a good thing

 

[Darkman.exe213]

the controls in fighting games are never really that hard.
Melee's simple move scheme does work well to attract casual players
but from a competitive standpoint, moves that are harder to do simply widen the skill gap, which in most cases is a good thing

But at the same time, having hard-to-enter commands adds "fake" depth in most cases. Once you actually get into higher levels of play, inputs for attacks shouldn't even matter. What makes Melee interesting is that most of the skill doesn't come from using the"best" attacks, but rather, using the best tricks to counter your opponent's strategy.(in other words, it involves more analysis than actual skill at fighting games) I think it can be compared to Tennis, in a way. The rules are fairly simple, but learning the technical skill in the game is more important than simply learning a few good moves. I think Melee is generally pretty well-balanced in terms of mechanics, because this allows you to always find room for improvement, no matter which character you use. I think that with "perfect" players who rarely make any mistakes, Melee would actually be extremely balanced.(this does not necessarily mean top-level players; they still make plenty of mistakes, really)

 

[Eggm]

All the best answers to life's hardest questions are simple yet elegant and seem so simple once you look back at it. Melee is simple yet elegant and very simple in and of itself but is still brilliant and deep.

But anyway melee has quite a few reasons that make it an awesome fighting game. Because in traditional fighters once a player hits that first hit during a combo and doesn't mess up its 100% guaranteed were going to see that SAME combo that we ALWAYS see and do nothing about it. It gets old. In melee not only do you have to space/zone/trick to get that first hit like you do in every other game but then you have to play a whole new game to keep a combo. The player comboing has to predict DI and get creative with move choice to keep it going and use tricks. And the guy getting comboed has to read ahead and choose the right DI and smash DI to get out. Its an extra element. Not only that, but theres the whole tech chase thing which adds another layer of depth to it.

The next thing is stage in other games hardly matter other than if the background looks pretty or the song is cool. In melee it makes a gigantic difference as you can jump around platforms (melee exclusive) and there may or may not be edges (another melee exclusive thing edge guarding etc..).

I don't know some people might like spacing around getting that 1 hit then hitting their preset button sequence and seeing the **** occur the exact same way over and over and over but I like the feeling of having to react and predict throughout my combo and have it always be slightly different its more satisfying.

Those are the reasons I find it perfect since its so deep/different than any other fighting game.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I think I like melee most because of how much freedom we have over the characters. Generic fighting games feel too limited in a sense, simple things like not being able to turn your back on your opponent are what bothers me about those kind of games. I like, in melee, how you have so much control, and it seems as though it's possibilities are endless.

 

[Eaode]

I agree on the simplicity issue, It's so hard to get someone into, say, GG, because you have to sit there for like 30 minutes explaining everything, the bars, the moves, the characters, the combos, the mechanics. Smash is so simple to pick up and play that you can just explain a few little things while letting someone play it and they'll be playing in no time and start developing their own strategies.

Smash also has the freedom of movement thing going on (along with combo variation). The one big reason I can't get that into traditional fighters is the restriction of movement. The only one that comes close to smash in mobility is GG, hence it's the only traditional fighter I play extensively. The dynamic spacing game in smash makes it a lot better than most traditional fighters imo.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

also rofl at pal pal just sucks sorry.

stop being dumb

 

[TK-12]

melee is the best fighting game ever thats period!!!!!!

 

[slartibartfast42]

Melee with ninja turtles and co op side scrolling would be great.

Well, there's a certain other game similar to melee with side scrolling co-op, and look how it turned out...

 

[Metà]

stop being dumb

Oh no, you play using PAL, therefore it must be good, right? Sorry, PAL blows, and I can say this without ever having played it. The only good thing they did was nerf Fox and turn Marth's d-air into a meteor smash, but it still sucks.

Anyways, I agree with pretty much everything in this thread, and have been voicing that opinion for a while now. Melee is a perfect balance of simple, elegant controls and deep, precise gameplay mechanics.

 

[tubes]

Oh no, you play using PAL, therefore it must be good, right? Sorry, PAL blows, and I can say this without ever having played it. The only good thing they did was nerf Fox and turn Marth's d-air into a meteor smash, but it still sucks.

Anyways, I agree with pretty much everything in this thread, and have been voicing that opinion for a while now. Melee is a perfect balance of simple, elegant controls and deep, precise gameplay mechanics.

So what about it sucks? I've never heard anything bad about the game at all.

 

[Miggz]

Melee is a pretty awesome game.

I must say, I've never practiced so much in a game before before I played melee.

 

[EPsilon933]

So what about it sucks? I've never heard anything bad about the game at all.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Version_differences_(SSBM)

Also, I think PAL runs at 50 frames per second instead of 60.

 

[SyOn]

^

You can change it to 60.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Sorry, PAL blows, and I can say this without ever having played it.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Version_differences_(SSBM)

Also, I think PAL runs at 50 frames per second instead of 60.

not if you have the right cables.

 

[TheManaLord]

So what about it sucks? I've never heard anything bad about the game at all.

You go to play your fav chars and they are mad lame.

Nerfing to balance always sucks. They gave random buffs and nerfs, it's a silly version of the original it's no better.

 

[tubes]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Version_differences_(SSBM)

Also, I think PAL runs at 50 frames per second instead of 60.

not seeing whats so bad about it other then the removed extender and a few other removed tricks for low tiers. I can understand why people don't like it though as the characters that got nerfs happen to be the ones most people play as. The version does seem more balanced to me and it's no where near a World of Warcraft "this character is now a steaming pile of **** and this one is invulnerable" level of stupidity. Personally, I play C. Falcon and from what I've heard he got buffed in the pal version with a not ******** gentlemen and his knee hits strait sideways instead of up and away.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

i am dumb and ignorant.

that is true

 

[Metà]

So, what about PAL is so good, Mike? Your responses say nothing, you're just throwing out meaningless insults. Manalord is completely right, nearly all of PAL's nerf's are completely un-needed, and buffing is generally a better (though not easier) solution to the character balance issue.

Why PAL < NTSC (keep in mind that many of these are only small changes):
* Ganondorf blows
* Sheik's up-air doesn't KO reliably (yet Fox's up-air remains untouched, to my knowledge)
* Falco's d-air is nerfed (no reason to nerf him when he was already not as good as Fox or Marth)
* Marth cannot be shine comboed
* Samus has no homing grapple
* Sheik's d-throw game is pretty much trash

Most of these are small changes, but what really bothers me is that they were clearly attempting to balance the cast by nerfing some over-powered attacks, yet left so many things unfixed. Double standards ftl

Buffing > nerfing

 

[HT F8]

Alright guys, way to take the thread completely off topic.

Go make a PAL vs NTSC thread and whine there, please.

 

[ES Lite]

Yeah melee is fast, cool looking, and very competitive. I love melee.

 

[Skrlx]

WOW i totally didn't know about the PAL and NTSC issue.. i need to go check my melee disc RIGHT NOW

 

[TheManaLord]

I hope that's a joke... I really really really really really really really do.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

So, what about PAL is so good, Mike? Your responses say nothing, you're just throwing out meaningless insults. Manalord is completely right, nearly all of PAL's nerf's are completely un-needed, and buffing is generally a better (though not easier) solution to the character balance issue.

Why PAL < NTSC (keep in mind that many of these are only small changes):
* Ganondorf blows
* Sheik's up-air doesn't KO reliably (yet Fox's up-air remains untouched, to my knowledge)
* Falco's d-air is nerfed (no reason to nerf him when he was already not as good as Fox or Marth)
* Marth cannot be shine comboed
* Samus has no homing grapple
* Sheik's d-throw game is pretty much trash

Most of these are small changes, but what really bothers me is that they were clearly attempting to balance the cast by nerfing some over-powered attacks, yet left so many things unfixed. Double standards ftl

Buffing > nerfing

so if the differences are small, how the hell can pal be thrash if ntsc is great? that doesnt make sense (last time i checked the gap between great and thrash isnt small)

the majority of the changes are good. sheik is broken as hell so why is the dthrow and uair a bad thing? its even better then changing marths dair to a spike or nerfing fox's usmash in terms of balancing
and you can still sdi out of fox's uair so i dont see the need of changing fox's before sheiks

marth not being able to get shine-combo'd is good as well since it makes marth more of a fox counterpick which evens things out (in ntsc fox doesnt really have a counter)

in the beginning of the metagame ganon was considered one of the best chars, so i guess nintendo thought it would remain that way and nerfed him slightly
who gives a **** about ganon anyway, in pal the top tiers are more even which matters infinetly more. (marth vs sheik is more even, fox vs marth is more in marth's favor, and all 3 top tiers are generally less overpowered, etc)

calling falco's pal dair a nerf is beyond a stretch, ive explained why to *******es like you a billion times i dont wanna do it again. do you even know the differences between them? and if you do and you call that "a nerf", i really doubt you've even played pal (ive played ntsc several times fyi)

and if nintendo wanted to buff everyone instead of nerfing they'd have to buff way more stuff then they'd have to nerf. why would they waste time on that when they can get the nearly the same results through nerfing a few things?

but since pal isnt from **** yhea america it must suck mirite guys. god bless america

 

[tubes]

so if the differences are small, how the hell can pal be thrash if ntsc is great? that doesnt make sense (last time i checked the gap between great and thrash isnt small)

the majority of the changes are good. sheik is broken as hell so why is the dthrow and uair a bad thing? its even better then changing marths dair to a spike or nerfing fox's usmash in terms of balancing
and you can still sdi out of fox's uair so i dont see the need of changing fox's before sheiks

marth not being able to get shine-combo'd is good as well since it makes marth more of a fox counterpick which evens things out (in ntsc fox doesnt really have a counter)

in the beginning of the metagame ganon was considered one of the best chars, so i guess nintendo thought it would remain that way and nerfed him slightly
who gives a **** about ganon anyway, in pal the top tiers are more even which matters infinetly more. (marth vs sheik is more even, fox vs marth is more in marth's favor, and all 3 top tiers are generally less overpowered, etc)

calling falco's pal dair a nerf is beyond a stretch, ive explained why to *******es like you a billion times i dont wanna do it again. do you even know the differences between them? and if you do and you call that "a nerf", i really doubt you've even played pal (ive played ntsc several times fyi)

and if nintendo wanted to buff everyone instead of nerfing they'd have to buff way more stuff then they'd have to nerf. why would they waste time on that when they can get the nearly the same results through nerfing a few things?

but since pal isnt from **** yhea america it must suck mirite guys. god bless america

No matter how reasonable it is, nobody likes having their character nerfed. Go to the WoW forum and you'll see what I mean. half the **** threads are balance johns. One of the many reasons I don't play that game.

 

[Miggz]

Melee is simply the bets game ever because it NEVER ceases to amaze people.

I bet if you played that game for two or more hours straight, you'd see something you've never seen before. It doesn't even matter how long you've been playing either. The game is just so good.

 

[TheManaLord]

Mike is region elitist, that's all.

A nerfed game is a worse game, flat out. It's not balanced, it's nerfed.

 

[NES n00b]

Smash also has the freedom of movement thing going on (along with combo variation). The one big reason I can't get that into traditional fighters is the restriction of movement. The only one that comes close to smash in mobility is GG, hence it's the only traditional fighter I play extensively. The dynamic spacing game in smash makes it a lot better than most traditional fighters imo.

You should check out Melty Blood Act Cadenza if you haven't. Movement is fast and has a lot of freedom with it, and there are *some* combo variations like some are for more damage, some are for a better position but not as much damage, etc.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

No matter how reasonable it is, nobody likes having their character nerfed. Go to the WoW forum and you'll see what I mean. half the **** threads are balance johns. One of the many reasons I don't play that game.

the difference is that pal is original version for me. if you dont wanna play pal cuz youre used to how ntsc is thats fine, but according to that logic ntsc sucks for me since it isnt the original version for me and the chars have changed to something im not used. and that logic is pretty ****ing stupid, and you know it

manalord - they didn't nerf the game, they changed/nerfed certain moves with certain chars to balance the game. if they would've done something like nerf the graphics or the framerate then it would've been a nerfed game, but they didn't. there's a pretty huge difference between that and balancing the game.

im the region elitist? because i dont falsely agree that pal somehow sucks?

although, if its not from america and if its not what americans are used to and comfortable with it must suck. i shouldve realized that my bad

 

[-ACE-]

if its not from america and if its not what americans are used to and comfortable with it must suck. i shouldve realized that my bad

Making generalizations like this based on a few comments seems like a waste.

I've never played PAL, but there's no way it could flat out suck. It's still Melee! It can't be that bad. As long as you can play it at 60 frames with the right cables I wouldn't mind. Plus I play Ganon and let me just say Sheik's dthrow in PAL is AWESOME!

Seriously, this is worth a discussion, but definitely not worth arguing over...

 

[Eggm]

Hey Mike H. What in pal makes ganon suck? I'm not familiar with all the differences and am interested. Or if anyone has a link to ALL the differences that'd be cool that other link to wiki doesn't work.

 

[voilentjack]

haha NTSC is too broken for me

what makes melee so cool than any other fighting game is the different versions , so there will always been different styles to playing

i recently played a american jiggs was amazed how different he played from euro jiggs

<3 melee