Why L-cancelling shouldn't be in Smash 4.

[JOE!]

No reason to get so mad dude, lol. But I do share the sentiment of "why would it be bad that more people can jump past a hurdle?" thing.

game wont be that hype. combos wont be that hard.

Subjective. THink about this from an outside view: auto l cancel and Manual L cancel when you watch them look the same.

game wont requiere much practice. i enjoy practicing.

I got L canceling down in about 15 minutes when I first heard of it. There will still be tons of practice needed for more fundamental and more complex activities.

ppl new to the game will be closer to ur lvl, it will be harder to 4 stock them.

shffl wont be anymore, it will just be shff. and i love to solo play in an stage and practice shffling.

This point loops back to what else I've said: there will still be tons of practice to be had, and what is specifically wrong with more people to play against?

being able to l cancel consistently makes the game harder to play and more complex to make combos. i dont want DMC combos or SSF combos. i want to feel im actually making them, not just getting help be the game it self.

You will still be the one doing the comboes because movement and DI dictate combo options 5x more than lcanceling does.


Still waiting on 3 objective reasons here.

 

[yahyakun]

what i want is that ppl EARN what they have. i want that skilled ppl are skilled because of their practice and their brain. i dont wanna c a newbie ****** ppl who have practiced for years.
thats why i love meele cuz i have tons of experience and practice, and if i for example want to be a good fox, i have to start practicing hard in other to be a fox.
#justice

 

[DefenseTech]

i dont wanna c a newbie ****** ppl who have practiced for years

This will never happen regardless of game mechanics

I am still waiting on a compelling argument for the inclusion of L-canceling...

 

[Mahie]

Thing is, Lcancel is just a noob hurdle. No one cares about it once you reach even the deepest of depths of competitive play, because it's mandatory and you should be doing it.

Granted, it's hard to learn, but not hard to master at all. There are a few tricks that make it harder, but compared to everything else in the game, it's not much at all.

Thus, we can wonder, is it something that a newbie needs to learn in order to even start learning the game ?

I would say no. Technicity should come from the fact that you need technique to master more options. With everything else in the game, it's the case. You need wavedashing to punish things that you can't punish otherwise, you need walljump techs to survive certain edgeguards, and so on. You learn something because it allows you to prevent more situations.

Lcancelling ? Why would you not do it ? It's only hard when you suck, and then it becomes nervous stimulation. You need to pay attention to your opponent, but your argument, yahyakun, was not about that, as you were just happy to shffl around on your own.

I don't know. I really don't think it's a mechanic that needs to come back. Is it a good mechanic ? I guess so. There's some interaction between the players around that, so it's pretty cool.

Is it the best mechanic possible? No. Definitely not.

 

[clubbadubba]

The beauty of smash is that everything, with the sole exception of z-canceling, is the simplest input it can be. The control system of smash is not meant to make the games more difficult, it is meant to give the player absolute and complete control over their character in the simplest way possible. The difficulty in smash comes in stringing together all of the techs as quickly as possible, but all of these techs, except for L-canceling, have their own individual purpose. Any number of "advanced techs" could be added to the game in order to make it more difficult. For example:

-Jumps could require multiple inputs as Browny said. But there's no depth in that? Okay, jumps could only require multiple inputs whenever an opponent is within a certain distance of you. Now you've got difficulty and player/player interaction! Does that make it a good tech? I think most players would say no, because it is unnecessary and doesn't add any functionality to the way your character moves or attacks.

Just because something adds depth and difficulty, doesn't make it a good tech. It should also coincide with the general principle of the control system that makes every input be purposeful while being as simple as it can possibly be.

 

[JOE!]

Just saying, how would a newbie be beating people with more experience if they both have the "advantage" of Lcanceling automatically? They'll be swatted down because they're new, as always.

People who are skilled because of practice and their brain are truly skilled, not because they can Lcancel. Thats why you will never see a newb destroy veterans with years worth of experience all things being equal.

 

[yahyakun]

Still waiting on 3 objective reasons here.

ill give u 3 great reasons:
melee like.
project m like.
ss64 like.

 

[JOE!]

Look up "objective" and get back to me.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

So far, it has been deliberately put into two out of the three titles in the series. Sakurai did not remove it because "there isn't a reason to ever not do it". Instead, he left us with no way to reduce lag because he specifically wanted to reduce the skill gap between players. The result? The majority of Brawl characters are no longer competitively viable. Meanwhile, NintendoDJ used Bowser to roflstomp Fox at Zenith 2013 in Melee.

DefenseTech, there isn't much incentive to argue with you. You signed up two days ago, and you will likely disappear once the game comes out. The same thing happened with Brawl. We had a huge influx of members to talk about Brawl, and everyone complained about competitive play.

 

[JOE!]

True (also that vid is so awesome). But didn't he admit at one point that l-canceling was meant to help players bring shield up faster or something? Seems like just hastening landing lag overall would do the same amount of work with less hurdles

 

[yahyakun]

Look up "objective" and get back to me.

cant find objective reasons. i just love to l cancel and hate the idea of auto l cancel cuz game will be more simple. i want to hit L and make loud sounds with my gc controller. i want to master hard combos and actually feel im making them. i want smthg like melee again.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

cant find objective reasons. i just love to l cancel and hate the idea of auto l cancel cuz game will be more simple. i want to hit L and make loud sounds with my gc controller. i want to master hard combos and actually feel im making them. i want smthg like melee again.

Obvious troll sounds obvious.

 

[Mahie]

cant find objective reasons. i just love to l cancel and hate the idea of auto l cancel cuz game will be more simple. i want to hit L and make loud sounds with my gc controller. i want to master hard combos and actually feel im making them. i want smthg like melee again.

If you're making loud noises when you Lcancel, then you're doing it wrong. Trigger shouldn't click.

 

[gnosis]

I'm gonna run through this one more time and then be done with it. What do you guys have to say about players deliberately tilting shield to alter the expected hitlag?

edit: Rethinking this.

It's marginal depth at best and I don't think it's enough to justify the technique.

There's still no decision making being made, you just hope your opponent isn't very good.

So far, it has been deliberately put into two out of the three titles in the series. Sakurai did not remove it because "there isn't a reason to ever not do it". Instead, he left us with no way to reduce lag because he specifically wanted to reduce the skill gap between players. The result? The majority of Brawl characters are no longer competitively viable. Meanwhile, NintendoDJ used Bowser to roflstomp Fox at Zenith 2013 in Melee.

DefenseTech, there isn't much incentive to argue with you. You signed up two days ago, and you will likely disappear once the game comes out. The same thing happened with Brawl. We had a huge influx of members to talk about Brawl, and everyone complained about competitive play.

Shouldn't the incentive to argue be whether or not the arguments are compelling? You don't argue on the internet to convince other people, you argue on the internet to explore your own thoughts and make sure you're actually as grounded as you think you are. Or at least that's what I've always thought...

 

[number90901]

Yes! Please don't have L-Canceling in SSB4. Sounds like a pain. How could having to press a button right before landing have any effect on the "fun-ness," or even "competitive-ness" of a game.

 

[DefenseTech]

DefenseTech, there isn't much incentive to argue with you. You signed up two days ago, and you will likely disappear once the game comes out. The same thing happened with Brawl. We had a huge influx of members to talk about Brawl, and everyone complained about competitive play.

Not asking for someone to argue with me...

I am asking for a compelling argument, as I (and others) demand to be convinced of the plus sides of L-canceling (as we currently know and understand it)

My join date and post count are irrelevant, I have lurked these boards and gleaned information from these boards for YEARS

I learned about DI and Z-canceling from these boards...Yes Z-canceling

I have participated in tournaments for Ssb64, Melee, and Brawl

The news for the new game has re-ignited my interest in the smash series and the smash boards (as it has for others)

All of that is irrelevant to the topic at hand...

If your post count and join date somehow make your opinion more relevant than mine...Please, put your 9k posts and 2005 join date to good use and enlighten us with a compelling arguement

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Shouldn't the incentive to argue be whether or not the arguments are compelling? You don't argue on the internet to convince other people, you argue on the internet to explore your own thoughts and make sure you're actually as grounded as you think you are. Or at least that's what I've always thought...

I am addressing the arguments too. I'm just giving it less weight because I will fight and fight and fight and then... he'll just be gone. And I disagree. I very much strive to change people's minds. I'm not worried about how grounded my own ideas are. I'm worried about how grounded others are in theirs. :]

My argument is not necessarily that "L-canceling should stay". I'm pointing out that those so vehemently opposed to it have a fantastical view of the landscape without it. People need to stop calling it "artificial". It was put there on purpose. So, I have to make a conscious decision to L-cancel. So what? I have to make a conscious decision to attack too. Personally, I certainly wouldn't mind not having to think about it anymore, but I have no preference that it "should not" be in the next game. I'd much rather have to L-cancel than have stupidly laggy aerials on the majority of the cast.

 

[gnosis]

I am addressing the arguments too. I'm just giving it less weight because I will fight and fight and fight and then... he'll just be gone. And I disagree. I very much strive to change people's minds. I'm not worried about how grounded my own ideas are. I'm worried about how grounded others are in theirs. :]

My argument is not necessarily that "L-canceling should stay". I'm pointing out that those so vehemently opposed to it have a fantastical view of the landscape without it. People need to stop calling it "artificial". It was put there on purpose. So, I have to make a conscious decision to L-cancel. So what? I have to make a conscious decision to attack too. Personally, I certainly wouldn't mind not having to think about it anymore, but I have no preference that it "should not" be in the next game. I'd much rather have to L-cancel than have stupidly laggy aerials on the majority of the cast.

I don't think many anti-l-cancel types want full lag aerials and no l-canceling. Most want the lag on aerials to be balanced individually, ending with the vast majority having l-cancel like speeds afterwards, hence 'auto l-cancel'.

And attacking is a different beast; it has much more situational responsiveness (aka gameplay opportunities) than l-canceling. The only situational responsiveness with l-canceling is timing, and only slight differences there. Attacking has different spacing, different moves, different timing, based on every factor in the game - both you and your opponent's percents, character, positioning, and the stage. It's much deeper and if it was automatic you wouldn't even be playing anything at all, you'd be watching a movie.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Not asking for someone to argue with me...

I am asking for a compelling argument, as I (and others) demand to be convinced of the plus sides of L-canceling (as we currently know and understand it)

My join date and post count are irrelevant, I have lurked these boards and gleaned information from these boards for YEARS

I learned about DI and Z-canceling from these boards...Yes Z-canceling

I have participated in tournaments for Ssb64, Melee, and Brawl

The news for the new game has re-ignited my interest in the smash series and the smash boards (as it has for others)

All of that is irrelevant to the topic at hand...

If your post count and join date somehow make your opinion more relevant than mine...Please, put your 9k posts and 2005 join date to good use and enlighten us with a compelling arguement

Good for you. So, you mean to tell me you had no opinion on L-canceling until now? It doesn't matter whether you lurked. Why didn't you speak up last year when smash was announced?

I like what someone said earlier in the thread: it could easily be given more depth by having hitboxes for non-canceled aerials. L-canceling was actually healthy as a mechanic because it overlapped with tech'ing in that you always wanted to "cancel" as you came in contact with any surface in any direction.

 

[Mahie]

I don't see them adding additional hitboxes to EVERY aerial in the game. That would be really weird.

However, you could see Lcancel being a Speed/Power mechanic. It would have to occur right during the startup of the move though, before you connect with it. In a sense, no different than the 3 versions of each special in most SF game.

You could start an Aerial, and go into Ver.A or B (Regular, powerful; or faster, not as laggy) depending on the button press, or lack thereof, that follows.

 

[DefenseTech]

I'm pointing out that those so vehemently opposed to it have a fantastical view of the landscape without it. People need to stop calling it "artificial". It was put there on purpose.

An excellent point

So, I have to make a conscious decision to L-cancel. So what?

You mean there is no other option?

I don't think many anti-l-cancel types want full lag aerials and no l-canceling. Most want the lag on aerials to be balanced individually, ending with the vast majority having l-cancel like speeds afterwards, hence 'auto l-cancel'.

A good point, having L-cancel like speed would be a plus in my opinion.

Good for you. So, you mean to tell me you had no opinion on L-canceling until now? It doesn't matter whether you lurked. Why didn't you speak up last year when smash was announced?

Doh! Irrelevant, not about me (or you)

I like what someone said earlier in the thread: it could easily be given more depth by having hitboxes for non-canceled aerials.

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea (at least in one for or another)

 

[Mahie]

Yeah, the debate was never about whether the aerials should have low or high landing lag. That's pretty obvious.

Btw, another idea would be to allow for each character to have 2 modes : Power / Speed.

You could switch between them, and your moves could, I guess, glow accordingly in their animations. (Red/Blue)

Power mode would make your moves stronger, Speed mode would reduce the recovery time. If you can switch mid combo really fast, it's even better, and would create a ton of variations/styles.

But let's be honest , Nintendo will change the gameplay that much.

P:M devs if you read this, however...

 

[Mr.Showtime]

I understand both sides and I can see total fanboy-isms to some of these responses. People are either thinking too hard on the subject or not at all. Think of L-Canceling being brought to a game you wanted to create. Let's place it in a normal 2-D fighter (will not use names, because we are creating our own game, remember?). Say we wanted to have Robert Speakerphone be required to press a certain button input every time when using an aerial attack the second he lands to reduce lag time after an attack.

What does this offer to the game?
You can argue that adding an extra input makes a game more complex. Sure, this is true. It can add some complexity since it is something that requires timing. Also, a professional player at the game DOES have a chance to not correctly press the input button at the right time, thus changing the flow of the game due to a mistake.

What does removing this do to the game?
It removes the complexity of a simple mechanic, but improves the fun factor. I wouldn't quite say that it is hard to time this button input, but not easy either. Removing this mechanic will make everyone able to recover at the same speed without a chance of error. This makes the game more fun and balanced.

Let's try to throw this idea in another genre. First-person shooters. You can only get so good at shooting, such as you can only get so good at L-Canceling. Once you reach a prime, you can't advance. Humans are prone to mistakes and errors happen. Eventually one person will screw up. No one is perfect. So there is a chance that you can screw up an L-Cancel. There is a chance you can screw up your aim even though you are really good at it. So does that mean that its up to chance?

The most important thing to look at here is which of these pros outweighs the cons. I honestly do not have an opinion on which I prefer, so please don't think I am biased towards a certain side. These are some things that are going around in my head while reading this discussion. If we want, we can develop a pros and cons list of "reasonable" results to both sides rather than have a fan-boy fest of which is better.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

At least we can agree on one thing: not having a form of lag reduction (manually canceled or otherwise) hurt Brawl drastically. Basically, it made you a fool for using certain aerials. At best, they were huge gambles that were easy to defend against and easy to punish. If a character has tons of landing lag, it needs to be made up in other areas. I loved fans' earlier ideas on how to reimagine Bowser, for example. He should have lots of landing lag, but he should have a ton of super armor to compensate. So, sure, you punish him by dealing damage, but his position is unaffected, so he is free to continue his assault. He'd basically be a specialized counter for characters who do really well at punishing those aerials in other characters.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but what if they made L-canceling simpler. Say, you do an aerial, and any time after you input the aerial you can press either L or R to install an L-cancel. This would mean that you could essentially do it whenever minus the timing. It's similar to how Jump Installs work in Guilty Gear. While this does eliminate the timing aspect, it does make it easier and still gives you the option to opt out of doing it. Personally, i'm fine with L-canceling in Melee/64, but I figured since Sakurai is trying to strike a point of balance for competitive and casual players this wouldn't be a bad route. Thoughts?

 

[Sedda]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but what if they made L-canceling simpler. Say, you do an aerial, and any time after you input the aerial you can press either L or R to install an L-cancel. This would mean that you could essentially do it whenever minus the timing. It's similar to how Jump Installs work in Guilty Gear. While this does eliminate the timing aspect, it does make it easier and still gives you the option to opt out of doing it. Personally, i'm fine with L-canceling in Melee/64, but I figured since Sakurai is trying to strike a point of balance for competitive and casual players this wouldn't be a bad route. Thoughts?

I wouldn't say that fixes the problem with it. What do you mean by "gives you the option to opt out of doing it?" Wouldn't there be landing lag if you didn't do it?

The issue with L cancelling is not the timing. The timing is easy to learn over time. The problem is the need to do it every time because it's the best option every time. The time window could be as large or as small as it likes, but the problem would still be the same.

 

[felipe_9595]

As long as there is a way to reduce landing lag, i am ok. I always prefer manual Lcanceling, but if the game has automatic Lcancel, i am ok too (Automatic Lcancel >>>>>>> No lag redution at all)

Also, people should stop using the "You should always Lcancel so its a useless techskill barrier". You should always Powershield, and that doesnt make it an useless techskill barrier.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I wouldn't say that fixes the problem with it. What do you mean by "gives you the option to opt out of doing it?" Wouldn't there be landing lag if you didn't do it?

The issue with L cancelling is not the timing. The timing is easy to learn over time. The problem is the need to do it every time because it's the best option every time. The time window could be as large or as small as it likes, but the problem would still be the same.

Precisely. Because like many others have mentioned, not doing it is still an option, and there is nothing wrong with choosing to not do it. L-canceling is good but it isn't always the best option. It's been said several times, even by very experienced players.

 

[DefenseTech]

He should have lots of landing lag, but he should have a ton of super armor to compensate. So, sure, you punish him by dealing damage, but his position is unaffected, so he is free to continue his assault. He'd basically be a specialized counter for characters who do really well at punishing those aerials in other characters.

This is a great idea...

 

[Ghostbone]

Precisely. Because like many others have mentioned, not doing it is still an option, and there is nothing wrong with choosing to not do it. L-canceling is good but it isn't always the best option. It's been said several times, even by very experienced players.

Wut

I mean if you said Z-cancelling, this statement might make sense. You at least have two circumstances in that game where you don't want to z-cancel because you'll get rid of your aerial landing hitbox.

The only reason not to l-cancel is if you're Peach and float cancelling instead, or G&W and incapable of l-cancelling with 3 aerials.

There's no downside to less lag, rofl.
There's like, Ice Climbers who might get desynced, but that's still fixed by waiting a few frames, and having control over popo > having control over neither.

I don't think anyone's arguing over whether l-cancelling is always the best option, it's more about whether it really adds anything to melee as a mechanic.

 

[Sedda]

Precisely. Because like many others have mentioned, not doing it is still an option, and there is nothing wrong with choosing to not do it. L-canceling is good but it isn't always the best option. It's been said several times, even by very experienced players.

Then there's no point in trying to make it easier if there's a mechanical need to do it. And yes, apparently there are times when you don't want to L cancel, which brings up an interesting point. Every time someone has tried to claim that you don't have to L cancel all the time (let's face it, that rarely happens) they come up with really creative reasons as to why you shouldn't L cancel, and that is exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time. The VERY few times you shouldn't L cancel (more like the very few times you DON'T want to, because doing it is never a disadvantage) require creativity, and L cancel as a mechanic would be better off if it required creative used 50% of the time.

Once again, L cancelling isn't difficult. It doesn't require thought. It's funny how NOT using L cancelling does, which influences and deepens the metagame more than having to L cancel all the time.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wut

I mean if you said Z-cancelling, this statement might make sense. You at least have two circumstances in that game where you don't want to z-cancel because you'll get rid of your aerial landing hitbox.

The only reason not to l-cancel is if you're Peach and float cancelling instead, or G&W and incapable of l-cancelling with 3 aerials.

There's no downside to less lag, rofl.
There's like, Ice Climbers who might get desynced, but that's still fixed by waiting a few frames, and having control over popo > having control over neither.

Yeah, I should have been more specific. I was actually referring to what Edreese was saying earlier. Regardless, I stand by what I said.

Either way having the option to do it or not is still beneficial to the player, which is why I am also in favor of having the half-landing lag L-cancel vs the SSB64 Z-cancel. Characters like Mario and PIkachu were still able to use the aerial landing hitbox with greater lag reduction. Hell, if any for of aerial canceling existed in Brawl Zero Suit Samus' Dair would be an amazing move.

@Sedda: I see what you mean, but what's wrong with getting creative. It is very important to stick to staple tactics, but being creative is very beneficial to any player, especially if you are veering towards being an autopilot. though one could argue that it is much more difficult to be creative without canceling, it's still possible.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Jeez did everyone just skip what I said? I guess we like to have an endless battle. Whatever......

 

[Sedda]

Jeez did everyone just skip what I said? I guess we like to have an endless battle. Whatever......

I just didn't get your analogy wit FPS and aiming. I don't think we should be comparing it with anything outside of Melee because everything outside of Melee is subjected to outside influences and rules within their own games/environments, but even so, aiming is much less of a skill barrier than L cancelling, and it's not even something that needs to be consciously addressed. Either way, I don't think it helps to compare it with fps' or BASKETBALL like some have been doing

 

[sushifreAk]

I think we should all stop arguing about it since it's never gonna happen.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

L-Canceling is absolutely necessary in Smash Bros. Why?

Because Sakurai will not cut landing lag for everyone. Characters with high landing lag will not be competitive. Balance becomes as horrid as it was in Brawl. Simple as that.

Casuals shouldn't care that people playing at a level they'll never reach are L-canceling. Catering to inexperienced players is a stupid reason to get rid of any mechanic in general.

 

[Sedda]

Removing L cancelling WOULD help casuals only in technical terms, you're right, but we're arguing against it because it's an outright bad mechanic, not because we're thinking about "casuals."

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I understand the point you and the OP are making, and it's a good one. However because of Sakurai's design decisions L-canceling must come back.

 

[Sedda]

I understand the point you and the OP are making, and it's a good one. However because of Sakurai's design decisions L-canceling must come back.

Why shouldn't we push for less landing lag automatically instead of L cancelling making it back? It sounds like it would be an easier battle to fight

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Why shouldn't we push for less landing lag automatically instead of L cancelling making it back? It sounds like it would be an easier battle to fight

I don't think asking for competitive and balanced landing lag across all characters is more reasonable than bringing back L-canceling. It may be a repetitive and unnecessary mechanic but it's better than the alternative.

Edit: I think I misread your post. On the other hand the laggy attacks make the game look more fluid, L-canceling looks a bit jarring to be honest. It's much better for competitive play though, so I think it's a good compromise.