Why L-cancelling shouldn't be in Smash 4.

[JOE!]

What the **** are you talking about? I need my frame advantage more then ever after hitting a shield.

Said yourself that shielding opponents can mess with Lcancels, this does the same thing.


@Costanza:
isn't there no actual fail window for Lcancelling?

 

[210stuna]

ITT: People who are saying L-cancelling is "useless" because they can't L-Cancel.

 

[-TAG-]

It saddens me that some people are more worried about L-cancelling not returning than what Smash 4 will offer, maybe Smash 4 will bring in new techniques, who knows.

 

[jerflip]

Said yourself that shielding opponents can mess with Lcancels, this does the same thing.


@Costanza:
isn't there no actual fail window for Lcancelling?

In SSB64, you can mash Z while landing to L-cancel. In Melee, if you press L slightly early, you can't press L again for a certain time period. So it actually requires precise timing in Melee.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Melee is not the only game where there are cancel mechanics, by the way. Have you guys ever tried to pull off a False Roman Cancel in Guilty Gear? Well, that **** is way harder than Lcancelling, that's for sure.

I know we're in agreement, but just to clarify for people who might point at his as an argument for L-Canceling: FRCs are different in that you don't *always* want to do it because it costs meter.

Also, for anyone complaining about changes in Brawl, keep in mind that it was specifically designed in such a way to actively discourage competitive play.

 

[Sedda]

Yeah, blah blah, people who don't want L cancelling don't know how to do it.... it adds depth because of timing... blaah

If you guys are going to defend L-cancelling, at least read what we've been saying.

 

[jerflip]

people who don't want L cancelling don't know how to do it

it adds depth because of timing

 

[JOE!]

I can L cancel and I recognize it's a dumb mechanic.

It adds a 0.1mm layer of depth because the window to do it is rather easy once you know about it and can't fail like a tech can.

 

[Chiroz]

I know how to L-Cancel and always do it yet I find the technique stupid.

After you've been playing all it is is a mechanic reaction with no cognitive side to it. In Melee there is never any reason not to L-Cancel, there is no thought put to it, it is mechanical and it doesn't show knowledge or cleverness to use it.

Things like wavedashing are very good because of the options it opens up and the wide arrange of things you can do with it. Things like L-Cancel hold no meaning. I would rather they reduced all landing lag to what it would be if it were L-Cancelled and just for-go the button press.

Why do you want there to be L-Cancel anyways?

The only real reason I can see L-Cancel being wanted is so that you have an edge against players who don't know about it or can't consistently do it, and quite honestly you shouldn't need an edge against these players to beat them.

If all you are better at than your opponent is being good with timing and you are not a smart player or don't have as much knowledge about the game as him then you shouldn't win, you just shouldn't. If you have more knowledge and you are smarter than your opponent then you shouldn't need a timing trial that shows no skill or merit apart from hours of practice in order to win.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Still not understanding why its a bad thing that you need to practice your timing to be good. So in the next Zelda, should you always be able to damage the boss no matter how bad your aim is? Why is it a bad thing to require technical skill for reward? It is the basis of all video games. In zelda, it is never a good option to MISS with your sword. Should the A button be removed and link automatically get a perfect hit on all enemies with his sword for walking up next to them?

 

[Sedda]

Still not understanding why its a bad thing that you need to practice your timing to be good. So in the next Zelda, should you always be able to damage the boss no matter how bad your aim is? Why is it a bad thing to require technical skill for reward? It is the basis of all video games. In zelda, it is never a good option to MISS with your sword. Should the A button be removed and link automatically get a perfect hit on all enemies with his sword for walking up next to them?

You're doing the same thing Mr.C was doing. The difference between L cancelling and aiming in Zelda is that aiming with the sword gives you options. You could slash left/right, I guess thrust (?havent played SS) depending on the situation. They're all options based on that one mechanic, but the situation makes you have to choose options.

L cancelling doesn't do that. There are no options for L cancelling. You don't have to think about whether you should L cancel or not depending on the situation. Timing doesn't apply here because timing is not an option depending on the situation. It's a requirement on any situation.
As I've said before, if there was an advantage to NOT L cancelling depending on the situation, this would be fixed. That's where the real/smart players shine. Now you have to decide whether, in a specific situation, it's a better idea to L cancel or to not L cancel because of what you're opponent is doing.

EDIT- practicing your timing to get good is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, but wouldn't the option of not having to L cancel depending on the situation also require timing practice?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I love how someone suggests making things easier for casuals and half of you suddenly start chomping at the bit and frothing at the mouth. Smash Bros. is not an exclusive club and to be fair, neither is the competitive scene. I hope they do make things easier for newbies and casuals, just so you all can get off your high horses. I swear, it's like dealing with a bunch of rich arses who don't want the unwashed masses in their personal yacht club.

 

[Chiroz]

Still not understanding why its a bad thing that you need to practice your timing to be good. So in the next Zelda, should you always be able to damage the boss no matter how bad your aim is? Why is it a bad thing to require technical skill for reward? It is the basis of all video games. In zelda, it is never a good option to MISS with your sword. Should the A button be removed and link automatically get a perfect hit on all enemies with his sword for walking up next to them?

Oh by that logic then, lets make jumping a mandatory 5 button sequence. In order to perform a smash attack we should have to tilt our controller downwards and then do a circle motion with it before the character actually performs the attack. This is what you want, no?

Arbitrary things don't add anything to a game, controls should always be simple, complexity should come with options and meta game, that's the right way to design a game.

BTW aiming is a skill which enforces fun and good design, mechanically learning a timing is not a skill, if you are actually thinking about L-Cancelling then you are doing it wrong.

Quite honestly, if L-Cancelling made it back or not I could care less, I know how to L-Cancel consistently and I will learn this new Smash's timing and keep doing it, but I would much rather it stayed out. Pressing an extra button input every time I do an aerial close to the ground is not in any way skill and it serves no purpose it is just an extra button input I do at an specific time after I perform my aerial.


To the above poster: For me it is not a thing about making it easier for casuals. It is the fact that we should remove arbitrary things that add nothing to the game.

 

[JOE!]

Lets look at this from the reverse:

how would it hurt more advanced players if more people could compete competently / there being less landing lag without needing to Lcancel?

 

[Sedda]

Lets look at this from the reverse:

how would it hurt more advanced players if more people could compete competently / there being less landing lag without needing to Lcancel?

This. M2K isn't going to suddenly start losing against the people who "Can't L cancel" because of no landing lag. The top players are SMART players. Technical aspects of the game are simply vehicles to allow your mind to do all the work.

 

[Mr.C]

You're doing the same thing Mr.C was doing. The difference between L cancelling and aiming in Zelda is that aiming with the sword gives you options. You could slash left/right, I guess thrust (?havent played SS) depending on the situation. They're all options based on that one mechanic, but the situation makes you have to choose options.

L cancelling doesn't do that. There are no options for L cancelling. You don't have to think about whether you should L cancel or not depending on the situation. Timing doesn't apply here because timing is not an option depending on the situation. It's a requirement on any situation.
As I've said before, if there was an advantage to NOT L cancelling depending on the situation, this would be fixed. That's where the real/smart players shine. Now you have to decide whether, in a specific situation, it's a better idea to L cancel or to not L cancel because of what you're opponent is doing.

I find it funny that you're addressing one of the best Peach players in the existence of Melee's history (EdreesesPieces) without knowing.

You're still not getting the fact that something giving no options is irrelevant. If I'm playing basketball I have no option but to dribble the ball for movement. Dribbling adding a dynamic towards the game that requires practice and finesse, is an empirical fact. Just because something doesn't give options does not make it bad. I see that you're saying Lcanceling could be improved, but at the same time the current iteration is also fine.

EDIT- practicing your timing to get good is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, but wouldn't the option of not having to L cancel depending on the situation also require timing practice?

I get what you're saying but those options already exist. Whether it's through floaty characters not wanting to SHFFL, Samus, Peach, Jiggly, Marth, Mario, Luigi, etc. Or through the option of doing aerials with a double jump. What makes Melee so special is the options the game provides. You can't look at Lcanceling in a vacuum, you must look at it in the context of it's game, on both a beginner level and a professional level.

Lets look at this from the reverse:

how would it hurt more advanced players if more people could compete competently / there being less landing lag without needing to Lcancel?

Better players will still be better. That is a given. What matters is which is more gratifying when playing at a top level. Getting everything given to you due to water-downed game play or actually practicing to achieve technical finesse.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Better players will still be better. That is a given. What matters is which is more gratifying when playing at a top level. Getting everything given to you due to water-downed game play or actually practicing to achieve technical finesse.

So it's a matter of "I worked this hard to get here so the rest of you have to as well."

I guess the competitive scene really is some sort of yacht club. Only the special people who can do the special complicated handshake (See: button presses) can join it, huh?

Screw that noise.

I want them to make things simpler. I want their to be more competitive players. I want the game to be based off of knowing the characters, not annoying mechanics and dull repetitive practices. I loved Smash Bros because it was a simple fighting game, something that didn't require all sorts of absurd infinitesimally split second timing and complicated finger maneuvers, like 90% of other fighting games out there, but you guys INSISTED that it had to have it in Smash Bros too! And now that someone suggests that we go back to making things simple so more players can play competitively and we have people ******** about it like they suggested we shoot their cat.

I hate to dumb myself down to this level, but I'm pissed enough to do so. Screw you.

 

[Bones0]

Anyone implying you don't need conscious thought for each L-cancel obviously doesn't know what they are talking about. Even the best players in the world have to focus on whether they are hitting their opponent or not in order to get the right timing. You simply cannot passively react to things like spotdodges, rolls, or WDs backwards OoS in the split second after your aerial but before you land.

 

[Chiroz]

You're still not getting the fact that something giving no options is irrelevant. If I'm playing basketball I have no option but to dribble the ball for movement. Dribbling adding a dynamic towards the game that requires practice and finesse, is an empirical fact. Just because something doesn't give options does not make it bad. I see that you're saying Lcanceling could be improved, but at the same time the current iteration is also fine.

Dribbling has a ton of options, whether you will dribble, whether you will stay put, whether you will dribble through the back or through your legs or on the left or right hand. But the main reason for dribbling is inhibiting free movement with the ball so it is fair as if you were able to grab the ball freely it would be incredibly hard for anyone to take it away from you. L-Cancelling has no relation with the opposing player whatsoever except maybe for psychological effects your opponent might have on you causing you to miss L-Cancels.

Anyways, fact is Dribbling does create options.

L-Cancelling would be like going to first base after having hit a ball in baseball.

If every single person who trained for 4 hours ran at the exact same speed and they also had the ability to never tire at all. Now lets assume this speed is 10 seconds, they can each get to first base in 10 seconds after hitting the ball. Lets also assume the only way to make an out is by touching the base (not the player). Now would it be that crazy to just make a rule that if the ball doesn't make it to first base in 10 seconds the hitter automatically gets first base?

It has already been proven that each of them will ALWAYS make it in 10 seconds, not more and not less so what would the difference be? Just watching them run, just like the difference between 2 people who know how to L-Cancel is pressing the button and hearing the sound.

I feel the only thing about removing L-Cancel that will change is that people who can't L-Cancel will start to play at a better pace and I welcome this.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

You're doing the same thing Mr.C was doing. The difference between L cancelling and aiming in Zelda is that aiming with the sword gives you options. You could slash left/right, I guess thrust (?havent played SS) depending on the situation. They're all options based on that one mechanic, but the situation makes you have to choose options.

L cancelling doesn't do that. There are no options for L cancelling. You don't have to think about whether you should L cancel or not depending on the situation. Timing doesn't apply here because timing is not an option depending on the situation. It's a requirement on any situation.
As I've said before, if there was an advantage to NOT L cancelling depending on the situation, this would be fixed. That's where the real/smart players shine. Now you have to decide whether, in a specific situation, it's a better idea to L cancel or to not L cancel because of what you're opponent is doing.

EDIT- practicing your timing to get good is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, but wouldn't the option of not having to L cancel depending on the situation also require timing practice?

I already explained that I miss L cancels on purpose to make people try to punish me. That post has been conveniently ignored by everyone in this thread because it destroys the entire basis of your argument. You can find vids of me doing this probably. Removing L canceling has removed one of my options, therefore it is preferable for it to exist. I can't speak for how others play, but I did play this way, so your argument that always L canceling is the right choice has been negated. It is a pretty legit strategy to make someone think you are worse than you are, then surprise them. Having the option between L canceling and not using it lets you use such a strategy. A lot of my game is based on baits, including missing aerials at just the right spacing, and missing L cancels at just the right spacing is one way to punish someone who is being too aggressive and not thinking with their brain. The strategy especially works well in teams when people see you lag and don't have time to really evaluate if they can punish you, but they go for it anyway because things are so intense.

 

[gnosis]

I already explained that I miss L cancels on purpose to make people try to punish me. You can find vids of me doing this probably. Removing L canceling has removed one of my options, therefore it is preferable for it to exist. I can't speak for how others play, but I did play this way, so your argument that always L canceling is the right choice has been negated.

That's an option, but it's completely a sub-optimal gimmick that relies on your opponent being bad. Games generally aren't hurt by removing those sorts of things since they're a non-factor in play where both players are trying to win and aren't awful.

Also removing options doesn't mean it's a bad idea - giving everyone unlimited jumps sure would give people a lot of options, it would also be a really bad game.

people who don't want L cancelling don't know how to do it

it adds depth because of timing

Yeah man M2K can't l-cancel for ****, what a scrub noob for realizing it's a technical hoop to jump through of little value and saying it shouldn't be re-added... oh wait...

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Uh no, that's not true. I used this technique to help me beat a lot of good players. Mango tried to rest me once because he thought I missed my L cancel but I spaced it so my shield would come out before he could. I do this kind of stuff, it is legit strategy. Ask anyone who played Melee and even Brawl with me about my bait game. Of course this can't be your only strategy but you said it yourself, it gives you an OPTION. And let me reiterate, the bait game is much more viable in teams than it is in singles. You can DEFINITELY rely on "opponents being bad" in teams because they are distracted by 2 other players on the field, you can beat people make way more mistakes and have less time to think it through.

Someone else also brought up that there are ways to mess people's L cancels up, like powershielding, so this gives opponents multiple options to combat your strategy and envoke extra strategies on the opponents parts. If the L cancel was automatic, someone powershielding wouldn't mess them up, therefore the opponent would have one less option to fight back. (Again, i emphasize the word MORE OPTIONS). There is a lot of strategy, thought and options that result because of L canceling.

Hey Mr C - thanks for the kind words man. Hope you have been well! The new smash game has got me excited so I've been posting here again after years away

 

[Sedda]

I find it funny that you're addressing one of the best Peach players in the existence of Melee's history (EdreesesPieces) without knowing.

I've been arguing against one of the best Peach players in existence? Well, holy ****. I must leave and not argue about L cancelling because that makes my arguments invalid.

I understand that it says that I joined in January, so I'm an easy target, but why don't you tell that to the others who are with me? What about Strong Bad? he's not in this thread, but he was saying how terrible L cancelling was in a different thread about Smash 4. Does that mean that one of the best Peach players gets points but one of the best DK players doesn't?
What about, umm idk, Mew2King. I guess his opinion doesn't matter either.
The only opinions by good players that matter to you are the ones that are directly against mine. I've only brought up other player's opinions because you did it. I was trying to defend my argument by coming up with my own reasons to not defend L cancelling. Please stop bringing other people into this as good evidence for me being wrong.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I'm 14 and what is this?

 

[gnosis]

Uh no, that's not true. I used this technique to help me beat a lot of good players. Mango tried to rest me once because he thought I missed my L cancel but I spaced it so my shield would come out before he could. I do this kind of stuff, it is legit strategy. Ask anyone who played Melee and even Brawl with me about my bait game. Of course this can't be your only strategy but you said it yourself, it gives you an OPTION. And let me reiterate, the bait game is much more viable in teams than it is in singles. You can DEFINITELY rely on "opponents being bad" in teams because they are distracted by 2 other players on the field, you can beat people make way more mistakes and have less time to think it through.

Someone else also brought up that there are ways to mess people's L cancels up, like powershielding, so this gives opponents multiple options to combat your strategy and envoke extra strategies on the opponents parts. If the L cancel was automatic, someone powershielding wouldn't mess them up, therefore the opponent would have one less option to fight back. (Again, i emphasize the word MORE OPTIONS). There is a lot of strategy, thought and options that result because of L canceling.

Hey Mr C - thanks for the kind words man. Hope you have been well! The new smash game has got me excited so I've been posting here again after years away

It's still a gimmick at best, but that's besides the point - merely giving more options doesn't justify a move. Games are nothing more than a list of rules, they are defined by the options they take away.

I think l-canceling is a poor mechanic because the depth it adds is marginal at best while mostly just being a big technical burden. I think all technical burdens must be justified. If they're good in and of themselves like Mr.C seems to be arguing, why not make it so every jump requires you to press 4 buttons in a precise order and timing? Or why not make every action require the use of every button on the controller? I think it's clear that there comes a point where no one really wants there to be more technical skill required to even play the damn game.

The technical burden you must learn before being able to even play the game is kinda like learning the language before being able to speak it. How complex should that language be? If your real goal is to have people speaking the language, actually playing the game, then it should only be as complex as absolutely necessary to create the desired experience for the players. But if your goal is to make the language a monstrously difficult thing to learn, then you're not even really looking to make a good game, since you've come out and admitted you just want people spending countless hours learning how to play it - that's the experience you're really going for.

I'm not actually sure how I feel about l-canceling. The only argument that convinces me it has much merit is the visceral feeling of pressuring a shield it adds, I'm not sure that outweighs the hoop jumping it adds to the game.

 

[Uffe]

There really wouldn't be a barrier if players were told about it in-game. I remember knowing a guy who thought the technique was cool in Melee, but didn't like the fact that it wasn't something that was taught to be used in the game. But the thing is, L-canceling is nothing like Shoryuken, and it only requires pressing one button. Even if returning to a stage required a Shoryuken motion to come back, it would become second nature. I believe you fear having to get technical and would rather play a game where it was simple. That is the feeling I had after jumping back into Melee and making an attempt to learn L-canceling and wavedashing. Both were difficult for me, but they're not impossible. In any case, it most likely isn't coming back.

 

[Ruthy]

people want L cancelling back

they want them to intentionally bring back a glitch

 

[gnosis]

There really wouldn't be a barrier if players were told about it in-game. I remember knowing a guy who thought the technique was cool in Melee, but didn't like the fact that it wasn't something that was taught to be used in the game. But the thing is, L-canceling is nothing like Shoryuken, and it only requires pressing one button. Even if returning to a stage required a Shoryuken motion to come back, it would become second nature. I believe you fear having to get technical and would rather play a game where it was simple. That is the feeling I had after jumping back into Melee and making an attempt to learn L-canceling and wavedashing. Both were difficult for me, but they're not impossible. In any case, it most likely isn't coming back.

Are you talking to me or the OP?

If me, just note that I may be a lowly Idahoan, but I hate Brawl and have been playing Melee competitively for years. My tech skill is about as good as it gets among us potato farmers. That said, my comfort with l-canceling doesn't mean I can't step back and assess its value as a mechanic.

So even if you are talking to OP, just because someone doesn't like l-canceling doesn't mean they're afraid of having to learn it or anything - they could already be proficient at it.

edit: Also, l-canceling is NOT a glitch. It was intentionally placed in 64 and mentioned on the official 64 site as an advanced technique. It was kept intentionally in Melee but toned down some (64 removed all, Melee removed half).

Also, it doesn't matter at all if a mechanic is a glitch or not. Does the mechanic add enough value to justify its inclusion is the only relevant question, not whether we want to label it intended, a glitch, an exploit, or whatever else.

 

[Uffe]

Are you talking to me or the OP?

If me, just note that I may be a lowly Idahoan, but I hate Brawl and have been playing Melee competitively for years. My tech skill is about as good as it gets among us potato farmers. That said, my comfort with l-canceling doesn't mean I can't step back and assess its value as a mechanic.

So even if you are talking to OP, just because someone doesn't like l-canceling doesn't mean they're afraid of having to learn it or anything - they could already be proficient at it.

edit: Also, l-canceling is NOT a glitch. It was intentionally placed in 64 and mentioned on the official 64 site as an advanced technique. It was kept intentionally in Melee but toned down some (64 removed all, Melee removed half).

Also, it doesn't matter at all if a mechanic is a glitch or not. Does the mechanic add enough value to justify its inclusion is the only relevant question, not whether we want to label it intended, a glitch, an exploit, or whatever else.

I was talking to the OP, I have no clue who you are, and I never said L-canceling was a glitch. If it was, I couldn't care less. Maybe I'm just looking at a fighting game such as Street Fighter where they have the basic techniques and advanced techniques. Yes, I know this isn't Street Fighter, but I do believe most fighting games have their basics and their advanced.

 

[gnosis]

I was talking to the OP, I have no clue who you are, and I never said L-canceling was a glitch. If it was, I couldn't care less. Maybe I'm just looking at a fighting game such as Street Fighter where they have the basic techniques and advanced techniques. Yes, I know this isn't Street Fighter, but I do believe most fighting games have their basics and their advanced.

You responded right after me in a way that could've been addressed to me.

The glitch talk was to someone who posted after you.

 

[jerflip]

people want L cancelling back

they want them to intentionally bring back a glitch

L-cancelling isn't a glitch

 

[Vkrm]

Said yourself that shielding opponents can mess with Lcancels, this does the same thing.


@Costanza:
isn't there no actual fail window for Lcancelling?

But in your scenario player skill doesn't play a part one way or the other. It cuts into player interaction. Plus if I was able to make contact with someone's shield, I should be rewarded with pressure.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

L-cancelling: Not a Glitch

Wavedashing: ...Let's not get into that.

 

[Mr.C]

people want L cancelling back

they want them to intentionally bring back a glitch

Lcanceling was added purposely and explained in the game manual. Definitely not a "glitch".

@Edreeses, hope you've been doing well also. Yeah, pretty much afk'd from the Smash community after Brawl came out. Coming back for the new game to see whether I'll be playing competitively again.

 

[JOE!]

L-cancelling: Not a Glitch

Wavedashing: ...Let's not get into that.

Wavedashing isn't a glitch either, well at least not a "real" glitch. It's more of just the physics behaving as it should as you move diagonally towards a flat surface: you slide with momentum.

But in your scenario player skill doesn't play a part one way or the other. It cuts into player interaction. Plus if I was able to make contact with someone's shield, I should be rewarded with pressure.

It doesn't really take much skill to L-cancel in the 1st place, which is half of why I think it's silly. Second, shouldn't the shield-er be rewarded for successfully blocking an attack? Why should you be rewarded for being blocked? In the example your lag is still lessened, just not as much.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't think we should reward the shield that much. Especially considering shield is the choice you make when dodging an incoming attack isnt an option. I would think that since side steping someone's attack is a harder read you should get more out of that. And if you see how easy it to cancel as a strike against L cancelling, how can you advocate removal of landing lag all together? We won't ever have a clear cut answer. You either like coordination or you don't. It's preference. The argument will go on forever if we let it.

 

[JOE!]

I don't think anyone is arguing for SSB64 0-lag canceling

Yes, spot dodge will be rewarded more as they would take full lag (missed).

Seeing how easy it is leads more into the discussion of whether or not it should be automatic: it is easy to do and out of 100 times, about 0.7% of the time is there an actual relevant choice in the matter (be it to bait somebody (in teams/being mindless), on a certain character's specific move, or the person being messed up psychologically). If the vast, vast majority of the time it won't be missed for the majority of players I don't see why a universal landing lag reduction, or better yet variable landing lag based on hit/miss wouldn't be just as good if not better. And from the looks of it smash4 seems to just have less landing lag on most stuff.

 

[Ghostbone]

In SSB64, you can mash Z while landing to L-cancel. In Melee, if you press L slightly early, you can't press L again for a certain time period. So it actually requires precise timing in Melee.

There's no fail window in melee

/why do people spread misinformation since they have no clue about the topic.

 

[MuraRengan]

As a melee player who enjoys l-cancelling, i realized that l-cancelling was stupid when i started trying to teach my friends, and for the first month ir so of training i had to keep telling them, "I cant help you learn your character better till you can solidly l-cancel". Once it becomes muscle memory, it seems like it's not a big deal, but somrthing so universal to gameplay shouldn't be a technical aspect. If it's something that needs to occur to play the game at even the most basic competitive level, it should be granted to the player.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't know if I agree. FADC comes to mind.