Why L-cancelling shouldn't be in Smash 4.

[Browny]

Imagine if every time you had to jump, you have to press L and then Z within 3 frame windows of each other before hitting jump, otherwise your character trips.

THE DEPTHS. ITS UNHOLY.

 

[gnosis]

I don't know if I agree. FADC comes to mind.

I don't play SFIV, but I'm vaguely familiar with the technique.
Are there times where you would want to cancel a special into a focus attack without the dash cancel? Are there balance reasons for why you should have to enter a focus attack into a dash to be able to cancel a special and not just be able to say, press a button (such as the increased amount of frames it takes to follow-up, or the forced amount of movement it adds to the technique, etc.)?

If so then I'd say it's not really comparable to l-canceling. Even then I bet the technique could be simplified without really hurting the game depth.

I don't know if there's a way to reconcile this argument. It's just two different tastes in gaming, and it's not just about l-canceling. Some people are gonna love a game to be obnoxiously, needlessly technical; they're just satisfied by finally nailing what they've practiced at, combos mean more to them when they know they really performed a physical feat to do it, etc. Others think grinding away hours practicing tech skill is really boring and are just there because they love the cerebral aspect of it, so they want the game as streamlined as possible.

Personally I'm all about the 'feel' of the game, its kinaesthetics; whatever technical hoops are there should be justified by 1) only being as hard as they need to be and 2) providing enough utility (whether strategic or kinaesthetic or whatever else) to justify that difficulty. And really I'm undecided about l-canceling on that front.

 

[PiGuy]

This is ridiculous.

L-Cancelling is like dribbling in basketball. The existence of dribbling arbitrarily makes the game more difficult. Wouldn't it be easier to just run with the ball, pass it, and shoot? It's not a decision either. You don't choose to dribble, you have to just like you have to L-Cancel. But the application of both skills makes the game deeper. Learning to L-Cancel when you connect coming down, going up, with a fast-fall, without a fast-fall, coming through a platform, coming up onto the stage, etc. takes years of practice and make the plays the pros do actually impressive. The moves the pros can do with their dribbling compared to your typical casual pickup basketball player are amazing just like the moves the pros can do with their shield pressure, tech chases, and combos because of L-Cancelling.

I see where you're coming from. I get the idea that automatic L-Cancelling would shrink the skill gap. But without L-Cancelling, a lot of the "wow" factor that comes from how much faster the pros can play than you is lost.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

I find it funny that you're addressing one of the best Peach players in the existence of Melee's history (EdreesesPieces) without knowing.

http://goo.gl/jciPe

If I'm playing basketball I have no option but to dribble the ball for movement.

This sets up a perfect analogy. Having to manually L-cancel every aerial attack in Smash is like having to manually dribble the ball in a basketball video game. That would be stupid, because you can't move without dribbling.

 

[jerflip]

You guys are arguing in circles and drawing false comparisons

 

[fabulouspants]

we should be able to macro preset combos onto buttons in games like sf4. yes even 1 frame links. everytime i punish my opponent's whiff i should get max damage. **** the arbitrary tech skill requirement. if i see you do unsafe pressure 1 button macro should DP>FADC ultra for me.

 

[JOE!]

@Dribbling

It's be good if it weren't for one detail: Grounded moves. In basketball you have to dribble to get around and do pretty much everything (as well as make the game playable to let other people get the damn ball), in Smash Lcancels only come when you've already committed yourself to aerial movement + aerial attacking near the ground. Should we then have to Lcancel tilts? Jabs? Smashes? Grabs? Throws? Specials? It's like if you have to dribble only if you are gonna try and dunk the ball, but shooting/passing/running it's whatever.

As is, I am in favor of there being a dynamic to landing aerials but Melee's Lcanceling is poor design for the laundry list of reasons we've given. It works in melee because it's had so much time to be adapted to, but that isn't a great excuse for the questionable design of it. Say if moves had landing hitboxes like Pika's Dair that went away if you Lcanceled to trade damage for speed, that would add substantially more depth and decision making into it than "do it or suck".

Alternately, there could just be different landing lag if you hit or miss.

 

[Mahie]

@Dribbling
Say if moves had landing hitboxes like Pika's Dair that went away if you Lcanceled to trade damage for speed, that would add substantially more depth and decision making into it than "do it or suck".

Alternately, there could just be different landing lag if you hit or miss.

Having some sort of an advantage in doing it either way would be pretty good, actually.

Different landing lag depending on whether you connected or not is already kind of the case. Since you add hitlag to the overall time, it changes the landing timing, albeit not lag.

 

[DefenseTech]

As is, I am in favor of there being a dynamic to landing aerials but Melee's Lcanceling is poor design for the laundry list of reasons we've given. It works in melee because it's had so much time to be adapted to, but that isn't a great excuse for the questionable design of it. Say if moves had landing hitboxes like Pika's Dair that went away if you Lcanceled to trade damage for speed, that would add substantially more depth and decision making into it than "do it or suck".

This.

The fact remains...It is something that will NEVER leave you at a disadvantage. A mechanic that offers no choice or autonomy in how you play does not add depth, it adds repetition

Look at my beloved SSF4:AE and the FADC, you have to option of canceling lag frames in a similar way to L-canceling...The difference? In SSF4:AE you lose meter each time you execute a FADC! Bringing a decision into the process rather than a non-autonomous execution

 

[JOE!]

Right, but I mean like you would Lcancel (1/2 lag) automatically if you connect the hit, and you take full lag if you miss (making spot dodges riskier but more rewarding for punishes).

 

[Sedda]

Please stop trying to say things like "a lot of the "wow" factor that comes from how much faster the pros can play than you is lost." or that "it's satisfying" as if those were good enough reasons to prove that it's a GOOD mechanic.

It would be satisfying to have an L cancelling mechanic that actually has pros and cons, but that isn't a good argument. I have to tell you why that is (As we've been doing this whole thread).

 

[Mahie]

Yeah, Brawl has no Lcancel and it doesn't prevent pros from being much faster than your average bloke. This isn't the nature of the technique.

I think we all agree that Lcancelling per se is superfluous and the only interesting part about it is how your opponent can interact with the application of the technique. For that to happen though, the technique in itself has to exist in general, hence why it was good in Melee.

It should come back as something entirely different imo, in Smash4. It's a bit complicated to teach noobs how to Lcancel, and making sure they don't fully press the trigger while doing it either, something that requires finesse beginners aren't able to bring into the mix.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

This is ridiculous.

L-Cancelling is like dribbling in basketball. The existence of dribbling arbitrarily makes the game more difficult. Wouldn't it be easier to just run with the ball, pass it, and shoot? It's not a decision either. You don't choose to dribble, you have to just like you have to L-Cancel. But the application of both skills makes the game deeper. Learning to L-Cancel when you connect coming down, going up, with a fast-fall, without a fast-fall, coming through a platform, coming up onto the stage, etc. takes years of practice and make the plays the pros do actually impressive. The moves the pros can do with their dribbling compared to your typical casual pickup basketball player are amazing just like the moves the pros can do with their shield pressure, tech chases, and combos because of L-Cancelling.

I see where you're coming from. I get the idea that automatic L-Cancelling would shrink the skill gap. But without L-Cancelling, a lot of the "wow" factor that comes from how much faster the pros can play than you is lost.

This x100.

It is silly to argue that, since L-canceling is always desirable, it should be automated or removed. Believe it or not, L-canceling adds depth. Your timing changes based on whether opponent shields your attack or sidesteps your attack. You have to be aware of it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/l-cancelling-does-add-depth-to-the-game.337350/

 

[DefenseTech]

This x100.

It is silly to argue that, since L-canceling is always desirable, it should be automated or removed. Believe it or not, L-canceling adds depth. Your timing changes based on whether opponent shields your attack or sidesteps your attack. You have to be aware of it.

Being aware of something and having to make a choice are two different things...

Changing your timing due to connecting or whiffing is not a choice.

Having multiple options (FADC) adds more depth than adapting within ONE option (L-canceling)

 

[JOE!]

If they sidestep it is the same as doing an empty Lcancel

 

[z-axis]

While we're shooting down anti-L-canceling arguments, the "there's never a reason to not L-cancel" one can go. A player needs to be aware of their positioning when preparing to L-cancel. If an edge cancel happens and the player is blindly pressing L because "there's never a reason not to!" then an air dodge will happen, which will either kill you or drop your combo.

Also, "artificial difficulty" is one thing, and it's definitely not L-canceling.

 

[JOE!]

so, if they happen to be using an aerial so close to an edge they might fall off, it is clearly an l-canceling issue, not a spacing one.

 

[yahyakun]

in my opinion, i wont play the game if it doesnt has L cancel. ill stick to pm.

-------
someone should make some kind of voting or poll
1- L cancel Melee like
2- Brawl like
3- Automatic L cancel

 

[DefenseTech]

While we're shooting down anti-L-canceling arguments, the "there's never a reason to not L-cancel" one can go. A player needs to be aware of their positioning when preparing to L-cancel. If an edge cancel happens and the player is blindly pressing L because "there's never a reason not to!" then an air dodge will happen, which will either kill you or drop your combo.

Also, "artificial difficulty" is one thing, and it's definitely not L-canceling.

Once again, being AWARE of when to L-cancel is not a compelling argument in my opinion.

Options create depth regardless of a players awareness

 

[Mahie]

While we're shooting down anti-L-canceling arguments, the "there's never a reason to not L-cancel" one can go. A player needs to be aware of their positioning when preparing to L-cancel. If an edge cancel happens and the player is blindly pressing L because "there's never a reason not to!" then an air dodge will happen, which will either kill you or drop your combo.

Also, "artificial difficulty" is one thing, and it's definitely not L-canceling.

That only happens if you don't soft cancel, meaning you need to use the light part of the trigger to Lcancel.

If you don't do that, and instead make the trigger click, you will airdodge during an edgecancel, and you won't be able to tech for the next 40 frames either, so if you trade, or if the opponent crouch cancels or something, you're ****ed.

 

[yahyakun]

different likes, different needs, different opinions.
what do u guys want the game to be? hardcore or casual?
i want it to be hardcore, thus i want l cancel.

 

[DefenseTech]

different likes, different needs, different opinions.
what do u guys want the game to be? hardcore or casual?
i want it to be hardcore, thus i want l cancel.

Head on over to SRK and see how all the hardcore street fighter players get along without a mechanic that every character MUST do to be successful...

L-cancel is dated...Thankfully there are ways to implement a "hardcore" lag cancel mechanic that is not repetitive and non autonomous

 

[yahyakun]

L-cancel is dated...Thankfully there are ways to implement a "hardcore" lag cancel mechanic that is not repetitive and non autonomous

which ways?

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

which ways?

Currently, for L-canceling, the outcome is one of two things:

You do it, and you halve your landing lag from an aerial.

You don't do it, and you don't halve your landing lag from an aerial.

That's it. Nothing else happens. Either you do it and get the benefit, or you don't do it and don't get the benefit. Thus, the only sensible option is to always do it.

All we're asking is to either not have it or make it more interesting than "if you don't do it, you don't get its benefit." One way is to add diminishing returns to it like Brawl's moves have. The more you L-cancel, the less effective it gets as the match goes on. So you would have to pick and choose when you're going to L-cancel vs when you aren't. Are you gonna save it for aerials with lots of lag to make them safe? Or are you gonna use it to do combos for high damage? Suddenly, L-cancels are extremely interesting.

Another change would be to add a reason not to always want to L-cancel. Each aerial can be given a property that only triggers on land. A character with a sword down-air might leave his sword out as he lands, and get an additional combo option out of that "stance" if he doesn't L-cancel.

These are a couple really easy examples on ways L-canceling could be made not to be completely arbitrary, even though the easiest solution is to just not have them, since their effect really isn't that interesting to begin with.

 

[DefenseTech]

which ways?

Landing hitboxes, diminishing returns, some kind of meter that is directly tied to your ability to di, etc etc

It is not up to me (or you) to come up with a solution that will make the game better...

That responsibility lies on the shoulders of those who..."make the big bucks"...over at nintendo

 

[JOE!]

which ways?

1) Make it so you give and take. For example, aerials have landing hitboxes that are removed if you L-cancel, exchanging damage for speed.

2) Make landing lag dynamic based on how or what you hit. Full lag on miss, half lag if you hit someone, etc.

 

[yahyakun]

Currently, for L-canceling, the outcome is one of two things:

You do it, and you halve your landing lag from an aerial.

You don't do it, and you don't halve your landing lag from an aerial.

That's it. Nothing else happens. Either you do it and get the benefit, or you don't do it and don't get the benefit. Thus, the only sensible option is to always do it.

if they put it auto cancel, the game will be like "hit any bottun after u air land and ull make a cool combo" or "face roll at shields without being so pro".
if they do add l cancel, the game will be like "never air attack him if his shield is active" or "no more ken combos"
if they put it melee like game will be like "practice, practice and practice if u want to make good and beautiful combos"

now for the ways to make l cancel better, i think its a lil bit ridiculous. just get l cancel, makes profesional pros and new comers noobs. its good for the porpouse of hardcore and shffl-ing.

 

[yahyakun]

1) Make it so you give and take. For example, aerials have landing hitboxes that are removed if you L-cancel, exchanging damage for speed.

actually thats a good idea lol. dmg for speed. weather u make shield pressure with high speed attacks and lots of l cancels or u are sure u will knee himand not press L, making it a critical knee. sounds good and i can still continue with shffling.

 

[JOE!]

So, you want l-cancel to stay to separate pros and noobs, and just to Shffl?

What is the downside then, to having more "pros" if Lcanceling is (auto)?

 

[Sedda]

I don't get how you people don't see that AT LEAST having an L cancelling mechanic with a trade off is better than what we have now. It would make you think harder about strategy and about your opponent, it will also involve timing when you DO see it fit to L cancel (not that I think that timing adds depth, as I've said, but since you guys do there it is!).

The point is to not make a mechanic difficult for the sake of it being difficult. There has to be knowledge of when to use and not use (I'm talking about using or NOT using the mechanic, not how early or how late you L cancel depending on your opponent's shield) the mechanic depending on the situation for the mechanic to be considered deep and worthy of player consideration.

 

[DefenseTech]

if they put it auto cancel, the game will be like "hit any bottun after u air land and ull make a cool combo" or "face roll at shields without being so pro".
if they do add l cancel, the game will be like "never air attack him if his shield is active" or "no more ken combos"
if they put it melee like game will be like "practice, practice and practice if u want to make good and beautiful combos"

now for the ways to make l cancel better, i think its a lil bit ridiculous. just get l cancel, makes profesional pros and new comers noobs. its good for the porpouse of hardcore and shffl-ing.

Da fuq?

 

[Sedda]

shffling already doesn't divide the "pros" from the "noobs." It divides the people who know about it and the people who don't.

I play ssb64 online and get my ass handed to me all the time, not because I can't Z cancel, because I can. It's because my spacing isn't too good, my matchup knowledge isn't very high yet, and I'm simply playing people with way more experience.

 

[yahyakun]

So, you want l-cancel to stay to separate pros and noobs, and just to Shffl?

What is the downside then, to having more "pros" if Lcanceling is (auto)?

the downside of not having l cancel is that combos will be easier to perform and that Dark (the fastest fox in the world) wont be so impressive, or any other pro.

 

[Vkrm]

I'm gonna run through this one more time and then be done with it. What do you guys have to say about players deliberately tilting shield to alter the expected hitlag?

 

[DefenseTech]

I still have not seen one single compelling argument for the inclusion of L-canceling (as we currently know and understand it)

Saying that it is impressive is an opinion
Arguing for its inclusion to protect the reputation (and possible e-peen) of the current top players is not a compelling argument in my opinion
Saying that those who argue against L-canceling, simply cannot L-cancel is an opinion
And this...

if they do add l cancel, the game will be like "never air attack him if his shield is active" or "no more ken combos"
if they put it melee like game will be like "practice, practice and practice if u want to make good and beautiful combos"

I dont know what to even say about this...

 

[yahyakun]

I still have not seen one single compelling argument for the inclusion of L-canceling (as we currently know and understand it)

Saying that it is impressive is an opinion
Arguing for its inclusion to protect the reputation (and possible e-peen) of the current top players is not a compelling argument in my opinion
Saying that those who argue against L-canceling, simply cannot L-cancel is an opinion
And this...



I dont know what to even say about this...

if they dont add l cancel, the game will be like "never air attack him if his shield is active" or "no more ken combos"
if they put it melee like game will be like "practice, practice and practice if u want to make good and beautiful combos"
ops, my bad XD

 

[JOE!]

the downside of not having l cancel is that combos will be easier to perform

Give me 3 reasons why this is a downside.

and that Dark (the fastest fox in the world) wont be so impressive, or any other pro.

They will still be impressive due to their mindgames, matchup knowledge, experience and other things. If you think just being able to Lcancel consistently is godlike than you have some damn low standards.

I'm gonna run through this one more time and then be done with it. What do you guys have to say about players deliberately tilting shield to alter the expected hitlag?

If it is something you can react to then it isn't that big a deal, especially considering there is no actual fail window beyond "too early".

 

[Mahie]

Ken combos have nothing to do with Lcancels.

Speed is not a result of being able to Lcancel. That's like the easiest part. Timing everything close to frame-perfection, however, that's what's difficult. Knowing exactly when you can start moving after a move, and doing it right then. That's how you speed up.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

if they dont add l cancel, the game will be like "never air attack him if his shield is active" or "no more ken combos"
if they put it melee like game will be like "practice, practice and practice if u want to make good and beautiful combos"
ops, my bad XD

Why are you a thing? No seriously, your arguments make my brain hurt. What is it with you people and your exclusionary arguments? It's like you DON'T want more people playing competitively...

 

[yahyakun]

Give me 3 reasons why this is a downside.



They will still be impressive due to their mindgames, matchup knowledge, experience and other things. If you think just being able to Lcancel consistently is godlike than you have some damn low standards.

game wont be that hype. combos wont be that hard.
game wont requiere much practice. i enjoy practicing.
ppl new to the game will be closer to ur lvl, it will be harder to 4 stock them.
shffl wont be anymore, it will just be shff. and i love to solo play in an stage and practice shffling.

----
being able to l cancel consistently makes the game harder to play and more complex to make combos. i dont want DMC combos or SSF combos. i want to feel im actually making them, not just getting help be the game it self.