Why L-cancelling shouldn't be in Smash 4.

[DefenseTech]

I dont think anyone is advocating landing delay...We are mostly in agreement that the full delay system of brawl was NOT good

But this is not about brawl or melee, this is about ssb4 and what we think the developers should do

I would love for someone to come in here and convince me that L-canceling (as we now know and understand it) would add to the depth of ssb4

We need a system of reducing delay that introduces advantages and drawbacks

 

[Sukai]

It makes you feel better and some snip about hating casual/less skilled players.

That's it.

 

[nLiM8d]

I would love for someone to come in here and convince me that L-canceling (as we now know and understand it) would add to the depth of ssb4

I sincerely doubt that's going to happen, the only thing I can think of is how taking to the skies is somewhat of risky choice.

You jump out of the way to counter an oncoming attack and now you need to defend yourself offensively. With every execution of an attack there are cool down frames, while the scenario might be different in the case of L cancels, its like performing an aerial has its own set of consequences.

The funny thing is, a lot of the included nuances in Brawl had myself and many others asking things like "what is this Smash Bros Real Life?" If you were to drop kick someone in a real scenario, you would need some time to gather your bearings. How much of that type of realism needs to be included in a game?

 

[[Corn]]

I dont think anyone is advocating landing delay...We are mostly in agreement that the full delay system of brawl was NOT good

But this is not about brawl or melee, this is about ssb4 and what we think the developers should do

I would love for someone to come in here and convince me that L-canceling (as we now know and understand it) would add to the depth of ssb4

We need a system of reducing delay that introduces advantages and drawbacks

Or we could just cut the middleman and just reduce the delay automatically which is what this thread is suggesting.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

What do you think about simplifying tech'ing? I would certainly like it if I could just hold the R-trigger down and auto-tech any chance I get.

 

[[Corn]]

What do you think about simplifying tech'ing? I would certainly like it if I could just hold the R-trigger down and auto-tech any chance I get.

This is a terrible comparison, absolutely terrible.

No one has even tried to state why making it auto cancel will be detriment to the comp scene.

The only responses so far have been either vague answers that completly dodge the overall point or sarcastic questions that make us seem like elitist pricks.

Its not going to be Brawl, its not going to be Melee, its going to be a new game.

This isnt the type of support for an upcoming game that Im sure that all of us would like to be big in both the casual and competitive areas.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

This is a terrible comparison, absolutely terrible.

No one has even tried to state why making it auto cancel will be detriment to the comp scene.

The only responses so far have been either vague answers that completly dodge the overall point or sarcastic questions that make us seem like elitist pricks.

Its not going to be Brawl, its not going to be Melee, its going to be a new game.

This isnt the type of support for an upcoming game that Im sure that all of us would like to be big in both the casual and competitive areas.

It was a serious question.

 

[DefenseTech]

What do you think about simplifying tech'ing? I would certainly like it if I could just hold the R-trigger down and auto-tech any chance I get.

A good question...

If by holding the R/L-trigger you restrict your OTHER options I would be fine with that

The point is that you have a multitude of options to choose from when tech'ing, it isnt an non-autonomous execution

 

[[Corn]]

It was a serious question.

It obviously isn't if you cant see the difference in usage.

Teching is much harder then L canceling and entire strategies revolve around your opponent missing a tech for a follow up, Teching isn't required nearly every time you attack, Teching is something that if made nearly auto would drastically change the game.

L canceling is basic and required to even start playing seriously, L canceling is required in every single air attack that lands, L canceling is something that wouldn't change the game at all if made auto exept for lowering the skill floor, which is a good thing.

 

[Sukai]

What do you think about simplifying tech'ing? I would certainly like it if I could just hold the R-trigger down and auto-tech any chance I get.

It's a good mechanic, because it balances itself in certain games, in persona 4 arena and the upcoming BBCP, you can hold a button to tech as soon as you can, in UMVC3 you tech automatically without any player input, this way you can avoid getting caught up in fake or dropped combos, but at the same time, if your opponent is aware , they can reset you or run an oki tech that relies/depends on the auto tech. In persona's case, you can choose to not hold to tech and get out of such planned oki techs. It doesn't take away from the depth, it's adds functionality and adds a bit of depth as well.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It obviously isn't if you cant see the difference in usage.

Teching is much harder then L canceling and entire strategies revolve around your opponent missing a tech for a follow up, Teching isn't required nearly every time you attack, Teching is something that if made nearly auto would drastically change the game.

L canceling is basic and required to even start playing seriously, L canceling is required in every single air attack that lands, L canceling is something that wouldn't change the game at all if made auto exept for lowering the skill floor, which is a good thing.

What is your problem? Others are responding just fine. Just you, however, have a meltdown every time I speak and assume I am participating in a grand conspiracy of some kind. I'm asking questions to draw boundaries around your position and understand what your stance is on other techniques. Instead, you insist on making a personal attack and avoiding the question. Also, I said nothing about comparing it to L-canceling. I was asking about tech'ing to gain some context.

 

[nLiM8d]

If by holding the R/L-trigger you restrict your OTHER options I would be fine with that

As in how long you hold the trigger? Like you can't automatically transitions into a shield?
(It helps if I actually read the original suggestion XD)

Just you, however, have a meltdown every time I speak and assume I am participating in a grand conspiracy of some kind.

I recognize that as well

 

[[Corn]]

What is your problem? Others are responding just fine. Just you, however, have a meltdown every time I speak and assume I am participating in a grand conspiracy of some kind. I'm asking questions to draw boundaries around your position and understand what your stance is on other techniques. Instead, you insist on making a personal attack and avoiding the question. Also, I said nothing about comparing it to L-canceling. I was asking about tech'ing to gain some context.

If I come across as harsh, then so be it.

I came into this thread because I wanted to see opposing views as to why or why not it should be made auto, whilst being on the pro auto side. For the first few pages it became more and more of an execution barrier and ego booster then anything else with some interesting definitions on what and what is not depth. Eventually it debunked into a Brawl vs Melee mechanics argument with people randomly reading the thread title and making misinformed posts on what this thread actually stands for.

I also assume that anything not related to the thread or stuff that can be interpreted as being sarcastic or trolling is, cant have emotions on the internet and based on like every thread that involves someone wanting to change something that a previous game had is usually heavily trolled upon.

 

[nLiM8d]

Being kind of possessive don't you think? You've told us what you've came here for but is there something in particular that you hoped to gain from these opposing views?

I personally would like to get a better idea of what auto L canceling would look like from your perspective. Every time I read into something that catches my interest here I get excited and want to respond to it, so I apologize if I have overlooked a few posts of yours were you've have already detailed what you want.

 

[[Corn]]

Being kind of possessive don't you think? You've told us what you've came here for but is there something in particular that you hoped to gain from these opposing views?

I personally would like to get a better idea of what auto L canceling would look like from your perspective. Every time I read into something that catches my interest here I get excited and want to respond to it, so I apologize if I have overlooked a few posts of yours were you've have already detailed what you want.

My vision of auto L cancel is simply not needing to do an input for the cancel. All you would need to do is land during an air attack and the lag would be canceled exactly like melee's is except you dont need to press anything.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

If I come across as harsh, then so be it.

I came into this thread because I wanted to see opposing views as to why or why not it should be made auto, whilst being on the pro auto side. For the first few pages it became more and more of an execution barrier and ego booster then anything else with some interesting definitions on what and what is not depth. Eventually it debunked into a Brawl vs Melee mechanics argument with people randomly reading the thread title and making misinformed posts on what this thread actually stands for.

I also assume that anything not related to the thread or stuff that can be interpreted as being sarcastic or trolling is, cant have emotions on the internet and based on like every thread that involves someone wanting to change something that a previous game had is usually heavily trolled upon.

Even if I was trolling, the proper response to ignore the troll. I'd be jumping for joy at your responses and how aggravated you were becoming.

 

[[Corn]]

Even if I was trolling, the proper response to ignore the troll. I'd be jumping for joy at your responses and how aggravated you were becoming.

Difference to being aggravated and getting annoyed explaining the same thing 5 times, and even responding to a troll with logical responses is better then letting it fester.
Well my 2 cents, any feedback on my previous post?

 

[nLiM8d]

As I view that, the game would need to change in such a way that just about every move is distinct. It emphasizes the necessity for precise reads, yet the task is clear and accessible because its easy on the eyes.

That's what you'll be focusing on instead of the task of reading your opponents landing frames or your own. It speeds up the gameplay in a way that's reasonable, because the only thing you need to focus on is being a good interpreter, not a better button presser. This is becoming very Halo 2 to Halo 4 ish.

There isn't a single player that will ever be able to L-cancel consistently without focusing on it, so if anything I think it can just be viewed as a way of preventing approaches from becoming too complacent of an activity.

Thanks Bones0

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

My vision of auto L cancel is simply not needing to do an input for the cancel. All you would need to do is land during an air attack and the lag would be canceled exactly like melee's is except you dont need to press anything.

I would definitely prefer this over everyone having so much lag on landing.

 

[[Corn]]

I would definitely prefer this over everyone having so much lag on landing.

If SSB4 hopes to be a middle ground for Melee and Brawl, this would help it out on that path as well.

 

[nLiM8d]

Are there any places where landing lag might be appropriate? Like in a scenario where you landed a hit on someone who properly executed a powersheild?

On a side note, I don't see any landing lag in the Developer Direct vid.

 

[grandmaster192]

It's easy enough to L-Cancel just as it is. Even the most casual of players should be able to simply press one button upon landing. With the newer games being slower in gameplay, it would theoretically make it even easier than it already is. I don't see why people are so against it. I could see if the execution were extremely difficult and that it did serve as an actual barrier, but the fact is that it's not. It's really not even something worth debating honestly. I think the majority of the community agrees that the aerial lag in Brawl has to go. L-cancel is a proven mechanic serves it's purpose fine, and it would do so in Smash 4 as well. If you made everything auto-cancel, same thing.Who cares? However, my mind set is that we're either going to get the return of L-cancels or Brawl lag. This is where there should be some unity here in our community. No one wants Brawl lag, right? What's the alternative? L-cancel. This auto-cancel mechanic that people are suggesting is so unlikely that it's just not worth arguing or supporting.

 

[[Corn]]

It's easy enough to L-Cancel just as it is. Even the most casual of players should be able to simply press one button upon landing. With the newer games being slower in gameplay, it would theoretically make it even easier than it already is. I don't see why people are so against it. I could see if the execution were extremely difficult and that it did serve as an actual barrier, but the fact is that it's not. It's really not even something worth debating honestly. I think the majority of the community agrees that the aerial lag in Brawl has to go. L-cancel is a proven mechanic serves it's purpose fine, and it would do so in Smash 4 as well. If you made everything auto-cancel, same thing.Who cares? However, my mind set is that we're either going to get the return of L-cancels or Brawl lag. This is where there should be some unity here in our community. No one wants Brawl lag, right? What's the alternative? L-cancel. This auto-cancel mechanic that people are suggesting is so unlikely that it's just not worth arguing or supporting.

Its not at all unlikely to suggest that they reduce landing lag on air attacks.

You know what was unlikely? Mega Man and Wii Fit Trainer as characters.

Are there any places where landing lag might be appropriate? Like in a scenario where you landed a hit on someone who properly executed a powersheild?

I would probably be just guessing, but applying hitlag to your opponent when they hit your powersheild would be a suggestion of mine.

Remember, we will still have ending lag, just like l canceling doesnt remove all lag.

 

[grandmaster192]

Its not at all unlikely to suggest that they reduce landing lag on air attacks.

It's very unlikely that they reduce it down to L-cancel levels.

 

[[Corn]]

It's very unlikely that they reduce it down to L-cancel levels.

Assuming they are trying to make a faster game that appeals to casuals and comp players, its not at all out of the realm of possibilities.

 

[nLiM8d]

So what's up with megaman?

 

[DefenseTech]

What would you guys think about being able to DI while experiencing landing animations?

I watched the game play video a bunch of times, landing delay seemed to have a slippery effect

Hard to tell by that video, maybe im just crazy...

Any thoughts?

 

[nLiM8d]

I definitely think that it makes me think and I can't wait to hear some scenarios on the execution to get a better idea of how to envision that.

If you continue to watch the video up until you get to see the Wiii Fit trainer's aerials, it would seem that she doesn't have the same slippery affect. This leads me to believe that some moves have you landing harder (have more endlag) than others. So maybe there's no difference at all, but I can see how you would get that idea by watching Megaman. I think its just part of his profile to have a lack of expression, he doesn't bounce around during his idle animations the way mario, fox, or other characters do.

Personally, I have a hard enough understanding what DI is than to think of it in a any other light than for recovery . Doesn't mean the idea hasn't got my intrigue.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

I don't see anything wrong with L-canceling. The vast majority of people who will buy Smash 4 don't know what it is, and won't even notice whether it's in or out anyway. For competitive play, it's great - it demands your attention and is rewarding. Even the best melee players occasionally miss L-cancels, because of the different timings that certain situations present.

From what I understand, there are two main arguments against L-canceling:

1. They may as well just cut all aerials' lag to what they would with L-canceling, thus removing this arbitrary button input. I can respect that perspective, but in the competitive community I'm pretty sure far more players favor L-canceling as it rewards you for staying focused. It especially makes shield pressuring more difficult, rewarding, and ultimately more interesting. Casual players, on the other hand, will largely remain unaware and unaffected, as I said. With auto-canceling (done universally, and not selectively as it is in Brawl), they would indeed find themselves moving faster after landing aerials, but wouldn't notice and would be just as happy otherwise. In fact they might even find the game uncomfortably fast. Imagine if at the end of Melee's development, they suddenly decided to apply auto-canceling, so that all aerials were automatically as fast as they are now with L-canceling. Well, they didn't, and the vast majority of casual SSBM players are still happily unaware or uncaring. No casual players complained about Melee being too slow, even with moves like Link and Ganon's dairs.

2. It gives a tangible advantage to people who practice such things over those who would rather simply play the game without turning it into a matter of study/work. That's true, but why would casual players want to play with competitive players anyway? (And vice-versa.) Sure, the average casual might come across a competitive player once or twice during the entirety of their time playing Smash; they will lose hard, and the competitive players' use of L-canceling (among other things) will contribute to that end. But a person who practices hard will generally be able to easily beat someone who doesn't practice, regardless. The experience for the casual player will only show them what the game is like at a competitive level. Some casuals in this situation will become upset and want nothing more to do competitive play (except to complain about it online). More reasonable casuals will look at that level of skill with respect and acknowledge it for what it is, and can then choose whether they want to pursue that route themselves.

And really, competitive players have no interest in actually competing against casual players. This is obvious to many who will read this, but it seems like most of the people who complain have this notion that competitive players are all sadistic freaks who only want to get freakishly good at the game so they can put regular players to shame. They think we exist simply to make them feel bad. This misconception is paramount to this whole issue, I think. Competitive players just want to play competitively, among ourselves; and we see the whole of casual players as potential competitive players. We'll introduce you to our world if you give us a chance, but if it's not for you then it's not like we're going to keep seeking you out in an attempt to humiliate you.

In my opinion, the divide between casual and competitive play has nothing to do with the issue of including individual mechanics such as L-canceling. The root of that issue lies in the fact that some people are going to apply themselves to the game, study it, and practice it. They will become better no matter what.

Melee was great as a casual game AND a competitive game. There's no reason the new smash can't or shouldn't aim to accomplish this as well.

In conclusion, the techniques that competitive players happen to use are not important, because people who apply themselves to the game are going to get good regardless. Despite Brawl's overt efforts to "level the playing field," competitive players still rose way above casual players in terms of skill. When the developers try to do this, it accomplishes nothing except irritate and discourage the competitive community, as minor as we may be.

 

[[Corn]]

I don't see anything wrong with L-canceling. The vast majority of people who will buy Smash 4 don't know what it is, and won't even notice whether it's in or out anyway. For competitive play, it's great - it demands your attention and is rewarding. Even the best melee players occasionally miss L-cancels, because of the different timings that certain situations present.

From what I understand, there are two main arguments against L-canceling:

1. They may as well just cut all aerials' lag to what they would with L-canceling, thus removing this arbitrary button input. I can respect that perspective, but in the competitive community I'm pretty sure far more players favor L-canceling as it rewards you for staying focused. It especially makes shield pressuring more difficult, rewarding, and ultimately more interesting. Casual players, on the other hand, will largely remain unaware and unaffected, as I said. With auto-canceling (done universally, and not selectively as it is in Brawl), they would indeed find themselves moving faster after landing aerials, but wouldn't notice and would be just as happy otherwise. In fact they might even find the game uncomfortably fast. Imagine if at the end of Melee's development, they suddenly decided to apply auto-canceling, so that all aerials were automatically as fast as they are now with L-canceling. Well, they didn't, and the vast majority of casual SSBM players are still happily unaware or uncaring. No casual players complained about Melee being too slow, even with moves like Link and Ganon's dairs.

2. It gives a tangible advantage to people who practice such things over those who would rather simply play the game without turning it into a matter of study/work. That's true, but why would casual players want to play with competitive players anyway? (And vice-versa.) Sure, the average casual might come across a competitive player once or twice during the entirety of their time playing Smash; they will lose hard, and the competitive players' use of L-canceling (among other things) will contribute to that end. But a person who practices hard will generally be able to easily beat someone who doesn't practice, regardless. The experience for the casual player will only show them what the game is like at a competitive level. Some casuals in this situation will become upset and want nothing more to do competitive play (except to complain about it online). More reasonable casuals will look at that level of skill with respect and acknowledge it for what it is, and can then choose whether they want to pursue that route themselves.

And really, competitive players have no interest in actually competing against casual players. This is obvious to many who will read this, but it seems like most of the people who complain have this notion that competitive players are all sadistic freaks who only want to get freakishly good at the game so they can put regular players to shame. They think we exist simply to make them feel bad. This misconception is paramount to this whole issue, I think. Competitive players just want to play competitively, among ourselves; and we see the whole of casual players as potential competitive players. We'll introduce you to our world if you give us a chance, but if it's not for you then it's not like we're going to keep seeking you out in an attempt to humiliate you.

In my opinion, the divide between casual and competitive play has nothing to do with the issue of including individual mechanics such as L-canceling. The root of that issue lies in the fact that some people are going to apply themselves to the game, study it, and practice it. They will become better no matter what.

Melee was great as a casual game AND a competitive game. There's no reason the new smash can't or shouldn't aim to accomplish this as well.

In conclusion, the techniques that competitive players happen to use are not important, because people who apply themselves to the game are going to get good regardless. Despite Brawl's overt efforts to "level the playing field," competitive players still rose way above casual players in terms of skill. When the developers try to do this, it accomplishes nothing except irritate and discourage the competitive community, as minor as we may be.

I dont think you understand the issue of L canceling. It adds no depth and serves only as an execution barrier to those wishing to join a high level smash community. It doesnt reward you for staying focused, it is required to not be punished. The casual players we are reffering to arent people that barely play the game, its ones that would eventually be interested in joining the community. You need to adress why keeping it adds/removes anything for the comp community. L canceling isnt a technique that only comp players use, its a basic execution barrier needed to be past to even consider getting better. Making it auto cancel would have no effect on the comp community whatsoever whilst at the same time lowering the skill floor.


If you can name reasons why L canceling, an extremely required and basic thing, adds depth or how making it auto would detract from the game besides a technical standpoint I will consider this reasoning.

 

[nLiM8d]

Forgive me if this is a hard read, I'm a bit tired (meaning lazy) which makes me less concise.

L canceling isnt a technique that only comp players use, its a basic execution barrier needed to be past to even consider getting better.

When I read the post by TheCatPhysician, it seemed that the point that he was trying to convey is that the L-canceling mechanic was something that for most players, they're oblivious. In that sense, sure the competitive community are particularly the ones who utilize it because its an integral part in the meta-game (their meta-game). It's Definitely an execution barrier, for that sect of the community.

Imagine if two competitive players decided to make a vow to not use L-cancels for just one match, merely to see how differently the game played. I believe that they'd certainly need to compensate for certain shortcomings that have to do with what character they were playing and in the long run that aspect of the match would change the game for them.

When Brawl made the shift in air dodging mechanics, I think that players that didn't fully understand the new setup automatically transitioned their understanding of air cancels from Melee into the new game. This is something I've proved actually, I used to play Melee with a particular group of friends. I noticed that one of those friends wasn't air dodging in situations where he could have recovered. The point is that he had already established that air dodging off stage was a detriment so he had no incentive to explore (exploit) the change. Why would he?

Had I not noticed myself, the state of the game would be no different from what we were used to. Our matchups would carry on as they did in Melee, save for the different physics. So the deal is, the aspects of any meta game are in play when players choose to entertain them, if you're focused on these techniques you're leaning towards the competitive camp.

It doesnt reward you for staying focused, it is required to not be punished.

In collegiate wrestling, they teach athletes that if your aim is to execute a reversal from the set position, you need ready, willing, and able to do it ad infinitum until you can confirm the upper hand. The philosophy behind that stems from the idea that while you might be capable in pulling one off, you have no idea how capable your opponent is in countering (reswitch) your reversal (switch). The person who wins points is the person who is certifiably better. You could not do it, and that part of match will be pretty stale, but the option is there for those skilled enough to make use of it.

So you'll be punished for not staying focused for the execution, that's how I interpret that quote from TheCatPhysician

Edit- The lingo was SWITCH not reversal. I knew I was saying wrong.

 

[Sukai]

I'm pretty sure that no one was speaking in context to or about casual players, but rather less skilled ones who may not have the dexterity to hit that l cancel everytime.

Obseletizing l cancelling would make the game more accessible on a competitive level and allow for more players to compete, closing the skill gap that melee suffers with.

In this case, it allows the player to focus on other things in game.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

I dont think you understand the issue of L canceling. It adds no depth and serves only as an execution barrier to those wishing to join a high level smash community. It doesnt reward you for staying focused, it is required to not be punished. The casual players we are reffering to arent people that barely play the game, its ones that would eventually be interested in joining the community. You need to adress why keeping it adds/removes anything for the comp community. L canceling isnt a technique that only comp players use, its a basic execution barrier needed to be past to even consider getting better. Making it auto cancel would have no effect on the comp community whatsoever whilst at the same time lowering the skill floor.


If you can name reasons why L canceling, an extremely required and basic thing, adds depth or how making it auto would detract from the game besides a technical standpoint I will consider this reasoning.

The problem here is that you're being one-sided, refusing to acknowledge any merit to the perspective which is counter to your own.

It doesnt reward you for staying focused, it is required to not be punished.

In this statement, you're comparing two perspectives but blatantly discrediting the first. The second part is true: it is required to not be punished. But it is no less true that it rewards you for staying focused. Why would you say it doesn't? That doesn't even make sense.

You need to adress why keeping it adds/removes anything for the comp community.

I gave my reasons clearly in my last post. In essence, it is exactly what you said with one word changed:

"It DOES reward you for staying focused, and it is required to not be punished."

The fact that it it's required to avoid being punished is both good and bad. I think it's bad to a degree, because of the aforementioned execution barrier issue. But I think it's good to a degree, because of my aforementioned reasons. I think it's more good than bad, and you think it's more bad than good. But we can't get anywhere in this discussion if you pretend that there's nothing good about it in the first place.

The barrier argument is perfectly valid and I don't deny that it's a con to keeping L-canceling. Personally, I feel that it isn't too great a barrier to new players because anyone who is willing to play competitively is by necessity down for practicing extensively, knowing that technical proficiency is going to take considerable time. L-canceling, in regards to all the other things one must practice, isn't overly complicated and comes pretty naturally and steadily as you are working on all the other skills. So there is my argument for why the "bad" isn't so bad.

We do want more competitive players, and while making the game easier is an effective solution to that, I don't think it's worth it. You do, and I don't expect to change your mind. Obviously, what matters is what the majority of us want.

 

[grizby2]

landing lag is one way of balancing a move concerning the risk and reward factor. link's Dair is a prime example.

if you connect it, you either did ALOT of damage or perhaps even KO'ed your opponent. but if you miss? when you land, you need to take some time to get back up, too bad for you.

L-canceling cuts that time in half, and sorta removes the balance in a move such as the one in my example.
yes, l-canceling does make melee more competitive, that's because it turned into something everyone needed to do JUST so they were on par with their opponent.
its like the cold war. the U.S. made a missle, so the ussr made a missle to match the U.S. (that's probably a bad analogy!)

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I think the biggest issue here is the fact that there are too many people who don't want the skill floor to be lowered at all because then they wouldn't feel as 'hardcore.' They don't want a lower skill floor, they'd most likely in fact would love a HIGHER skill floor. Which makes no sense to me, because that's just making sure that no one in their right mind would want to waste their time to become competitive at that rate.

Then again, when you're fighting for cash, the less people you have competing against you, the better chance you have of winning... >_>

 

[TreK]

What do you think about simplifying tech'ing? I would certainly like it if I could just hold the R-trigger down and auto-tech any chance I get.

I figured you hadn't got an actual response to this.

Even if you are able to tech constantly, you still have to choose between tech right, left, in place or purposely not tech. Picking an option that your opponent decided to cover will get you punished. Decision making is still involved, outside of the whole technical aspect of it.
Such a thing cannot be said about L cancelling.

But I guess you were talking about stage spike teching. There's also the tech in place/tech jump choice to be made here, even though neither of those will get you punished very often. Here, the arguments I gave about the powershield/L cancel analogy also apply : it's a tech barrier on the defensive part of the game, making it fairer to the attacker, and it gives audio and visual feedback that you actually did something, enhancing the hype of the action. The post is somewhere last page.

 

[Sedda]

I don't see anything wrong with L-canceling. The vast majority of people who will buy Smash 4 don't know what it is, and won't even notice whether it's in or out anyway. For competitive play, it's great - it demands your attention and is rewarding. Even the best melee players occasionally miss L-cancels, because of the different timings that certain situations present.

From what I understand, there are two main arguments against L-canceling:

1. They may as well just cut all aerials' lag to what they would with L-canceling, thus removing this arbitrary button input. I can respect that perspective, but in the competitive community I'm pretty sure far more players favor L-canceling as it rewards you for staying focused. It especially makes shield pressuring more difficult, rewarding, and ultimately more interesting. Casual players, on the other hand, will largely remain unaware and unaffected, as I said. With auto-canceling (done universally, and not selectively as it is in Brawl), they would indeed find themselves moving faster after landing aerials, but wouldn't notice and would be just as happy otherwise. In fact they might even find the game uncomfortably fast. Imagine if at the end of Melee's development, they suddenly decided to apply auto-canceling, so that all aerials were automatically as fast as they are now with L-canceling. Well, they didn't, and the vast majority of casual SSBM players are still happily unaware or uncaring. No casual players complained about Melee being too slow, even with moves like Link and Ganon's dairs.

2. It gives a tangible advantage to people who practice such things over those who would rather simply play the game without turning it into a matter of study/work. That's true, but why would casual players want to play with competitive players anyway? (And vice-versa.) Sure, the average casual might come across a competitive player once or twice during the entirety of their time playing Smash; they will lose hard, and the competitive players' use of L-canceling (among other things) will contribute to that end. But a person who practices hard will generally be able to easily beat someone who doesn't practice, regardless. The experience for the casual player will only show them what the game is like at a competitive level. Some casuals in this situation will become upset and want nothing more to do competitive play (except to complain about it online). More reasonable casuals will look at that level of skill with respect and acknowledge it for what it is, and can then choose whether they want to pursue that route themselves.

And really, competitive players have no interest in actually competing against casual players. This is obvious to many who will read this, but it seems like most of the people who complain have this notion that competitive players are all sadistic freaks who only want to get freakishly good at the game so they can put regular players to shame. They think we exist simply to make them feel bad. This misconception is paramount to this whole issue, I think. Competitive players just want to play competitively, among ourselves; and we see the whole of casual players as potential competitive players. We'll introduce you to our world if you give us a chance, but if it's not for you then it's not like we're going to keep seeking you out in an attempt to humiliate you.

In my opinion, the divide between casual and competitive play has nothing to do with the issue of including individual mechanics such as L-canceling. The root of that issue lies in the fact that some people are going to apply themselves to the game, study it, and practice it. They will become better no matter what.

Melee was great as a casual game AND a competitive game. There's no reason the new smash can't or shouldn't aim to accomplish this as well.

In conclusion, the techniques that competitive players happen to use are not important, because people who apply themselves to the game are going to get good regardless. Despite Brawl's overt efforts to "level the playing field," competitive players still rose way above casual players in terms of skill. When the developers try to do this, it accomplishes nothing except irritate and discourage the competitive community, as minor as we may be.

All of these have already been discussed here. There are still other things that require timing but actually give you options and are good for the metagame, such as the airdodging mechanic (and all that comes with it).
The difference with L cancelling is that it works as a division and nothing else. You actually get rewarded by learning how to wavedash because it's useful in different situations and it gives you options, while not being necessary ALL the time. Its use is up to the player's discretion. L cancelling can be a little bit difficult at first, but once you get good at it, it's more of something you've memorized and that's that.

As I've said before, competitive players are not good because they can L cancel consistently. Noobs can do that to (I can do it, for god's sake). They're good because they're smart players with experience. L cancelling is this initial technical wall that keeps some players out, and I really think that the community would be bigger if that particular skill barrier wasn't there.

 

[nLiM8d]

I think it there was a post on the 3rd page or so that defined the difference between Noobs and Newbies. Which leads me to wonder if Smart Players share a similarity to Smart People. There's a sect of individuals out there that will not have experienced this game up until the Wii U version. Among that group could be a fair amount of smart persons who will recognize these nuances rather quickly.

Now when you say 'experience' I believe that you're referring to an arbitrary accumulation of competitive matchups. This is a very specific branch of experience, seeing as the competitive essence is defined strictly by your tenacity to win at matches where the people involved have the same mindset. Thing is, the same spirit can be found in the casual sector as well, so it sounds to me that from where you're concerned it really matters who you're up against.

There is a problem with that viewpoint because, as you may well know, there is a difference between experience and skill. There is also a difference between intelligence and capability. What you're prescribing are individuals who, in certain circumstances, are forced to explore different options in an effort to gain the upper hand. That class belongs to both the experienced and the inexperienced and again, there will be very intelligent inexperienced players, so I'm not particularity 100% on who you're referring to when you say 'good players'.

If you mean Skilled players, that's a different animal. Its those players who have practiced sub-tasks to gain proficiency in an effort to create opportunities that provide different options. So in a sense this conversation is more about keeping pace than it is about maintaining the edge which is entirely dependent on the players skill, not experience.

So sure, there are players that can learn how to wave dash in order to explore different options, but if they aren't adept at interpreting different scenarios, they're no better off than focusing on other techniques.

I suppose that what you're saying is that L-canceling is an action that adds to the heap of techniques that players must learn in order to keep pace.

 

[[Corn]]

I would like to add that lowering the skill floor whilst maintaining a high skill ceiling is a very good thing. I dont understand the hate for lowering the floor.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Or we could just cut the middleman and just reduce the delay automatically which is what this thread is suggesting.

OR we can implement a new system, similar to one I mentioned previously which doesn't have the 'always l-cancel' mentality.

I agree with OP, I think L-cancel as we know it doesn't promote real skill, it just makes a barrier between those who do know how to use it and those who don't.

I'd be in favor of a system of L-canceling that promotes risk and reward. Instead of L-canceling on landing, you input it into the aerial, giving less damage allowing for strings of damage to be done in addition to juggling, and if you don't L-cancel it, it will be more powerful and provide more hit stun. If a player chooses the second option, it would put them in a much riskier situation but providing a much better reward. I think a system like this would be best complimented with an aerial tech system, which if timed corrected would allow players to tech weaker, L-canceled aerials.

This system isn't perfect and I'm by NO means an expert or any sort of skilled player, or someone who truly knows balance, but I feel this would provide for the best skill while providing fast paced gameplay. In this sort of system, you can have your bread and butter combos, those which can be broken out of my more skilled players. Also in this system is place for creativity, not choosing to L-cancel certain moves to place opponents in situations where they cannot tech and they are forced to follow up on it. Given mechanics like Smash-Di which we already have, no 2 encounters will ever be the same despite the same approach. It promotes skill among better players, doesn't make L-canceling just a thing you always have to do, rewards creativity and provides more interesting matches to watch on a spectator level.

Just some thoughts really, I personally think this would work, but again, I'm far from an expert.