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They're only a fun reference as much as the fandom nods in My Little Pony are to the adult fans. They can never "build" the game around it and they're incredibly minor. Fitting for a periphery, but nothing more.
It truly saddens me to hear you say that. I hope one day you'll come to realize how your elitist opinion is a periphery to the rest of the Smash community.
This fact is not exclusive to L-Cancelling therefore should not be used as a viable argument supporting the removal of L-Cancel. There are many technical inputs that effect the flow of movement to a much greater extent than L-Cancel, and it doesn't matter if these other techniques possess more mental depth it's not relevant to this argument.
There is one difference between my argument, and this argument. I argue that removing L-Canceling would be directly counterproductive towards point 3 of Project M's goal. However in your argument, keeping L-Cancelling in Project M would in no way interfere, reduce, or hurt the mental game Project M wants to emphasize for combos. Project M wants to incorporate both technical prowess and superior intellect into their game, removing L-Cancelling would reduce technical demands without adding anymore strain toward the mental game in return. I see no way how this benefits any of Project M's main goals.
The reason you keep hearing the same arguments is because you keep making the same bad points. Your reasons for wanting L canceling don't amount to anything logical for the game. Can you give me a solid reason why we should have to press L to half landing lag of A button attacks but not B button attacks? Or why there is no L cancel to halve ending lag on ground moves? Grabs? Why does the game not require you to hit a button 7 frames before grabbing the ledge or you fall to your doom? I could go on and on. All of those things would serve as technical barriers to the game and require more button presses, why not start adding them? We don't add things like this because they are meaningless barriers that serve no purpose other than mitigate the game's competitive (and casual) following. Also the established community would be livid that arbitrary nonsense is being put in the game simply for the reason of raising its "raw technical execution". The only thing that separates L-canceling from these other hypothetical barriers is Melee, and the only reason its in the game is because Melee, something you have failed to address.
Well, I forward the notion that the PM community should be separate from the greater Smash community. At least cross contamination won't happen that way.
This is exactly the type of thinking that holds Smash back and is completely baseless. Every competitive Smash player, including you, started off as a casual. Ostracizing yourself from others who love the same game simply because they don't go to tournaments is bigoted and elitist. Your opinion does not speak for the community as a whole.
I never argued for the removal of L-canceling. I simply refuted your arguments.
Who says I care for this community? I think this community is as bad as the Sonic and Pony fandoms combined.
Who ever said I want L-Cancelling in Project M? I don't ever recall stating my opinion on this matter. When people put words into my mouth they tend to lose credibility in my eyes. All I have been doing on this thread is trying to explain the purpose L-Cancel has (Yes it has a purpose) in Project M and how removing it would be counterproductive based on Project M's own goals for the game. I have never admitted any personal opinion on whether or not I myself wish for L-Cancel to stay, but I could see how you could infer that.
Design choice on PMDT's part. I am not obligated to answer those questions personally as I do not know why specifically PMDT chooses to keep L-Cancelling.
I've failed to address this because it's hugely irrelevant. To accuse Project M of keeping an arbitrary input in this case L-Cancel solely based on the fact that it was in melee is just blind ignorance.
I made a previous comparison between L-Cancelling and Powershielding in order to explain how both were always optimal choices to perform. Many were claiming that L-Cancel should be made automatic because it was always optimal. In the same sense L-Cancel is always optimal, it is always optimal to Powershield in the instance you decide to shield. These are both timing oriented actions and both are always optimal to perform in their respectful situations.
This is by far the greatest benefit from removing L-Cancel anyone has mentioned . I completely agree, it most likely would bring a greater population into the competitive scene. But is this what Project M wants? It's always important to balance your game design to appeal to both casuals and hardcore fans. However Project M has made it quite clear that this mod is much more geared toward the competitive scene. Casuals not seeking to become high level competitive players can simply resort to the original Super Smash Bros. Brawl game. Project M does not want to lower the level of the skill floor, the mod is designed to appeal to competitive players. The re-balanced character roster, further developed character design, and new stage choices are all nice touches for both casual and competitive play.
Your right this point is laughably simple. No amount of meaningless button presses will ever make a game better. Games must be built on a much more sound basis. Though this thread isn't for discussing the quality of games. Now, do extra tech barriers make the competitive scene for a game better? Arguably, yes.
This is the point I take issue with.
Remember Sturgeon's law. A greater amount of players will simply make it harder to find the good players.
Not really.
If you don't care about this community (and are going to generalize it and other communities), you really shouldn't be here.
Believe me I ask myself why I'm still here all the time. Either I'm masochistic or sociopathic.
It depends what your tech barrier is doing and what value that tech brings to the game.
I don't know if you've played Street Fighter... but that game is pretty hard. Marvel vs Capcom is even harder than Melee. Blazblue is also pretty rough.
The issue isn't difficulty, it's that isn't not needed.
Dribbling is a part of how basketball gets played, it's not just a tech skill. Otherwise people would just run the ball down like in football or soccer.
Yes, the core mechanic behind which basically all strategy in basketball is based around is totally comparable to being forced to hit an extra button that isn't needed because reasons. Can you imagine how ******** basketball would be without dribbling? You could just tuck it and walk calmly up to the hoop and boom. Nothing they could do without fouling you. Now, let's imagine competitive smash without L-canceling. Now that would be absolutely ridi- wait, no it would be exactly the same. Yep, nothing different.
Wow. Continuing with basketball analogies, that'd be like saying everyone needs to play on regulation sized hoops because children are just periphery to pro basketball. Like, bro, do you think competitive smashers just pick up a gamecube controller and are instantly awesome?
Your completely right and if you read my previous post then you'd know I agree with you. Removing tech barriers would definitely open the door to more players within the competitive scene. But as you've mentioned, it's a tradeoff. It is just not in Project M's interest to make this technical sacrifice to the game as I stated earlier:
Also removing L-Cancel alone would not make any drastic changes to the game in terms of difficulty of execution or tech barriers. There are still plenty other techniques new players would fumble on when being introduced to the competitive scene. In order to make a significant change in the skill floor you would ultimately need to remove a much greater pool of techniques than just L-Cancelling.
I don't understand what you're getting at here. You say that casuals can stick with Brawl, then say that Project M has features that appeal to casuals. Could you clarify what you meant?
The PMDT has plainly stated time and again that manual L-canceling will always be the standard. I disagree with their decision, but I understand their intent and I don't have an alternative that is strictly better in all cases.
so did you type this up thinking that nobody had possibly previously said this asinine bull**** previous to you or what
I'm saying Project M is not a mod designed to cater to casual players, but a mod designed to appeal toward competitive players. That even though many changes and additions improve casual player experience when compared to Brawl, Project M's goals are centered around improving the competitive value of the game.
Well perhaps Project M does not want to promote "bad practice" by implementing automatic L-Cancelling options. Maybe PMDT feels that if a option like that were created players would be less inclined to join the competitive scene. This is why an in between option isn't likely to form, but if such an option were to arise it would likely be an unofficial addition.
I never used the Project M goals to justify the existence of L-Cancelling, I only discussed how it benefits the goals of Project M and how it would be outside of Project M's interest to create an option for automatic L-Cancelling.
Also not targeting you specifically Ningildo, but I would greatly appreciate it if people would stop accusing me of fallacies and the sort. I take time typing my well thought out responses and explanations, I don't need to waste time proving my logic isn't fraudulent. Plus it's just rude.
I use the same argument to to refute these claims, because these points are continually being reused after I refute them. If you've been paying attention to this thread then you already know my counter argument is a very valid one. It doesn't matter if L-Cancelling does not increase the mental depth of the game as long as it contributes toward the technical side of the competitive scene. When confronted with the argument of "why isn't there any other arbitrary inputs necessary" I properly addressed it stating that it was design choice and that I cannot answer that question. That doesn't prove yet in any way that L-Cancelling should be removed, it simply means you will have to ask someone in PMDT directly if you want an answer to that. I cannot speak for others.
Yet again completely true. If you read more of my explanation than I hand feed you, you would have realized I already openly admitted to this flaw.
Point being if L-Cancelling is to remain in Project M this should be fixed.
This sounds like a personal quarrel to me. You can cherry pick games design choices all you like, it doesn't mean they have to conform to you. I have already proven L-Cancel's purpose in Project M to a certain extent, how you interpret the value of that is irrelevant. The point is L-Cancel has purpose and no one has been able to refute that.
It's not what I beleive, or what anyone else believes on this thread: It's what PMDT believes. When it comes down to it that's all that matters, I don't think anyone here has been able to truly come up with a valid and significant enough reason for Project M to seriously consider making L-Cancelling automatic. Sure it may have already been present in melee, but it was still a choice to retain it. Why it hasn't been reworked at all yet (Z button spam) I don't know, but I believe it was part of the bigger picture of what made melee so successful in the competitive scene and that's why it's in Project M. Of course I can only make this assumption according to the information they've posted on their about page, I can still not speak for PMDT themselves.
Well that's the problem. A game cannot make everyone happy, but I know PMDT is trying their hardest to regardless (They're a good team). This is why I brought up the point that Project M is a mod geared toward improving the competitive value of Super Smash Bros. and if that means upsetting a large portion of casual gamers in the process then that is unfortunate. Who knows, maybe one day we will see automatic L-Cancelling as an option.
The points I want to bring up from this are:
Foo
mentioned (among others), it can serve as a frustrating barrier for many people, especially if they already realize how arbitrary the mechanic is, and it probably persuades some to give up on learning the game before they truly get into it. Some of you might argue that if they give up on L-Cancelling, then they would eventually give up on the game anyway because of other technical skills that are required to play at a higher level. I would argue that these people would be much less likely to quit due to tech requirements if they already had understanding of and experience with the fast-paced gameplay that we love from this game, which is just not possible to achieve WITHOUT L-Cancelling. However, there is plenty of other tech skill that newer players can work on developing but that isn't such a possible barrier to newcomers gaining more interest in the faster gameplay. Special mention to @
platologic
for bringing up an excerpt from David Sirlin about easier controls for Super Street Fighter 2 HDR which I feel exemplifies some logic to support removal of this barrier (I can't link to his post, so here's the direct excerpt):The idea here is that removing L-Cancelling increases the game's accessibility, encouraging more people to play the game, enhancing both the meta game as well as the game's real-world visibility and success. Obviously, just about everyone participating in this thread has vested interest in the game and wants this end result. And so just as obviously, the question here becomes, does removing L-Cancelling increase the game's accessibility in a noticeable or significant manner?
Let's also not forget that many competitive Project M Players migrated from melee, and many tournaments host both iterations of the game. A major factor towards keeping mechanics the same as melee was for this very reason. If L-Cancelling were to be removed from Project M many competitive melee players would still find themselves automatically hitting that L button (Or Z button probably) out of sheer muscle memory. This of course could lead to many problems during the heat of a match.
I do agree that differences between melee and PM must be deliberately decided and well-thought because of this reason. However, from my understanding, inputting an L-Cancel wouldn't have an effect unless a new/different mechanic was introduced to actually REPLACE the L-Cancel. Otherwise it would just be an input that can't cause any affect and thus is ignored. However, the converse can be argued in that removing it from PM might cause players that then play melee to miss their L-Cancels because they're no longer as used to doing it.
The strawman is too real
No strawman or sarcasm here, I am 100% serious. Competitive games should be about reads and intuiton, not stupid from speicifc tech barriers
