Why isn't auto L Canceling an option?

[Bleck]

glass cannons

Fox and Falco are widely considered to be the best characters in Melee not only because they have the best offensive options by a wide margin but also the best defensive options and the best recovery

Falco is considered to be weaker in PM because he has a lot more awful matchups, but Fox is still basically the best character because he's still the most powerful character in all aspects - saying that these characters are "glass cannons" is pretty disingenuous

 

[Foo]

Oh, so now you want landing lag to be increased?

Not to talk about fox in this thread, but I don't want more lag, I want less damage on fox moves.

 

[Quillion]

Fox and Falco are widely considered to be the best characters in Melee not only because they have the best offensive options by a wide margin but also the best defensive options and the best recovery

Falco is considered to be weaker in PM because he has a lot more awful matchups, but Fox is still basically the best character because he's still the most powerful character in all aspects - saying that these characters are "glass cannons" is pretty disingenuous

The Star Fox duo are actually considered to have really **** recoveries. Congrats for doing no research.

They're also really juggleable by all characters. Even the bottom tier characters could trap them in an endless juggle if Star Fox players are nowhere near high skill level.

 

[GP&B]

Saying Fox (because Falco's is debatable) has a **** recovery tells me you really don't know much about Melee. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's amazing but it's almost certainly in the top half of recoveries in the game and improves even more when the stage has platforms to work with (ie. anything except for FD which Fox strikes). Between a highly variable angle Up B with extremely low landing lag and a quick, ledge-cancelable Side B (that can be shortened as well), Fox has a lot of options above the ledge. He's much worse below the ledge, but welcome to a majority of the cast.

So yeah, maybe you should do research.

Even the bottom tier characters could trap them in an endless juggle if Star Fox players are nowhere near high skill level.

Which is entirely irrelevant.

 

[Foo]

The Star Fox duo are actually considered to have really **** recoveries. Congrats for doing no research.

They're also really juggleable by all characters. Even the bottom tier characters could trap them in an endless juggle if Star Fox players are nowhere near high skill level.

Ugh, I don't want to get dragged into this but I can't leave this uncorrected. Fox recovery is amazing, and falco recovery is ok. If you put their recovery on character's that didn't fall so quickly, it'd be the best recovery in the game. They have next to no landing lag, sweet spots from anywhere in range and pretty good distance. Falco does suffer from badish recovery due to his weight, fall speed, and up-b distance, but fox makes up for it with his insane up-b. If they are coming from below, it's not too tough of an edge guard, but if they are above stage... forget it.

As for the juggle part, no. Spacies fall so quickly that it is rarely possible for most characters to combo them at lower and mid %s (or you could be someone like zss who can't combo them at all) which means you have to rely on tech chases, but they have good tech rolls, so... (I mean, if they don't tech and have awful DI, sure, but that is true of literally anyone.) To ammend your statement, characters with good vertical launchers across multiple moves in their kits can juggle spacies very well, and you see those characters higher on the tier list soley because you need to be able to do that to be viable in tourney. Spacies aren't actually glass cannons. They are less durable than most of the cast, but (fox in particular) have such good defensive and offensive options backed up by a good (or eh recover in falco's case) recovery that they more than make up for it. They have a weakness or two, but they are also the best in the game at several things and are at least good at pretty much everything (especially fox).

Also, idk if you said it before or if it was someone else but lasers, falco dair, and fox upsmash were barely nerfed. Lasers still serve the exact same purpose, they just do slightly less damage. Upsmash kills like 8% later which will almost never matter and falco dair isn't really a nerf since you just have to time the dair better.

Falco isn't too much of a problem, but fox is soooooooo busteddddd.

 

[Ajred]

If I haven't answered after previously being tagged and asked, it's probably because I don't want to answer and have no obligation to. Sorry bro.

Not to pry more, but is that purely personal preference, or does the PM team at large generally try to stay out of this discussion? I ask because if it's the latter case, I think this thread may as well be closed. It's already been largely agreed upon that L-cancelling's presence at the level of a mechanic affecting gameplay is arbitrary but based on player preference. Any further debate on this particular point seems futile.

However, I think larger-scale considerations (e.g. to what extent removing L-cancelling might alienate incoming melee players vs how likely it would be to draw and retain players) are still debatable, and I feel that the dev team's insights could be really helpful with working out these considerations. @FireBall Stars made a great start towards this early on in the thread along with a couple posts beyond that one as well, but I feel like there should be more discussion on the points he brought up.

Crucially, most of this is moot without data to back up either side. I think auto L-cancelling should be added as a well-advertised option, as has been noted earlier in the thread, so that a large number of both newcomers and experienced players can try it out and provide feedback. Until this happens, and data can be collected on it for a while, the debate is probably at a stalemate regardless of any further contributions to the discussion by dev members.

 

[Frost | Odds]

The Star Fox duo are actually considered to have really **** recoveries. Congrats for doing no research.

If you're going to be unbelievably patronizing and rude, at least have enough basic self-respect to be right.

Fox has one of the best recoveries in Melee. And no, some PM characters have a much harder time comboing fastfallers than floaties. Toon Link, ZSS, Meta Knight, and Squirtle all immediately spring to mind.

 

[Quillion]

If you're going to be unbelievably patronizing and rude, at least have enough basic self-respect to be right.

Fox has one of the best recoveries in Melee. And no, some PM characters have a much harder time comboing fastfallers than floaties. Toon Link, ZSS, Meta Knight, and Squirtle all immediately spring to mind.

Fox's recovery has to pause before moving. Recovering using Up-B is discouraged except as a last resort because it's redonkulously easy to intercept before it moves. It's best to save yourself the misery and just take the fall.

Also, idk if you said it before or if it was someone else but lasers, falco dair, and fox upsmash were barely nerfed. Lasers still serve the exact same purpose, they just do slightly less damage. Upsmash kills like 8% later which will almost never matter and falco dair isn't really a nerf since you just have to time the dair better.

Falco isn't too much of a problem, but fox is soooooooo busteddddd.

Of course it's not going to matter. The Star Fox duo are the definitive characters of Melee. PMDev raised all the cast to Fox's level by giving him marginal nerfs while giving massive buffs to everyone so that everyone's meticulously equal. What do you think the point of continuous updates are for?

Melee SD Remix does the same; some consider it to be better balanced because the top six are unchanged and everyone else is changed as little as possible.

 

[GP&B]

Fox's recovery has to pause before moving. Recovering using Up-B is discouraged except as a last resort because it's redonkulously easy to intercept before it moves. It's best to save yourself the misery and just take the fall.

And yet top level tournament play consistently shows that it's nowhere near as free as you make it sound. There's plenty of ways to mix it up without even factoring the use of Illusion into play (which is something you have to account for when positioning to edgeguard). If Fox's recovery was as awful as you say it is, Fox users should rarely if ever recover when put off stage. This is not the case.

 

[Bleck]

Fox's recovery has to pause before moving. Recovering using Up-B is discouraged except as a last resort because it's redonkulously easy to intercept before it moves. It's best to save yourself the misery and just take the fall.

the combination of you accusing me of not doing "research" and your disregard for what actually happens when people play the game (i.e see GP&B's above post) leads me to believe that you don't actually play this game

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Being challenged is what makes things enjoyable. The technical "barriers" are something fun to practice. You get to watch yourself get better and also develop a mindset of executing successfully to win but also putting in work learning nuances of the game. It is not enough to simply SHFFL as quickly as possible or at a certain timing out of dash over and over. Many times you want to delay the input, or not FF and instead drift inward or away, and so on and so on. These extra inputs key you into those nuances, and because they come so often really keep you immersed in the game.

 

[LancerStaff]

Being challenged is what makes things enjoyable. The technical "barriers" are something fun to practice. You get to watch yourself get better and also develop a mindset of executing successfully to win but also putting in work learning nuances of the game. It is not enough to simply SHFFL as quickly as possible or at a certain timing out of dash over and over. Many times you want to delay the input, or not FF and instead drift inward or away, and so on and so on. These extra inputs key you into those nuances, and because they come so often really keep you immersed in the game.

For everything but L-canceling, yes. There's no immersion or any complex imputs to it. Just press L, done. Just because it becomes second nature does mean it was good in the first place.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

For everything but L-canceling, yes. There's no immersion or any complex imputs to it. Just press L, done. Just because it becomes second nature does mean it was good in the first place.

I literally just copy and pasted what PPMD wrote, and I agree with him.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, but you're ignoring the context of his whole post where he admitted that L-Canceling is indefensible.

 

[LancerStaff]

I literally just copy and pasted what PPMD wrote, and I agree with him.

I don't care about famous smashers' opinions, I care about smart smashers' opinions.

Edit: Didn't know that he said that L-canceling was indefensible, so eh.

 

[platologic]

Crucially, most of this is moot without data to back up either side. I think auto L-cancelling should be added as a well-advertised option, as has been noted earlier in the thread, so that a large number of both newcomers and experienced players can try it out and provide feedback. Until this happens, and data can be collected on it for a while, the debate is probably at a stalemate regardless of any further contributions to the discussion by dev members.

This. Barring technical limitations, there's no practical reason not to include auto L-canceling as an option. The codes are available on /r/SSBPM for 3.5 so it should be a matter of being able to add an option to the same menu as Input Assist.

In fact, I challenge anyone who disagrees with auto L-canceling to download the codes and try it out for a few matches. Make the effort to not L-cancel and see how much (or how little) it changes your experience. I'm not saying you'll change your mind, but there's nothing wrong with seeing things from a new perspective.

 

[Jaedrik]

L-canceling is indefensible, yes.
But, now we have the matter of changing things.
If Isaac Asimov taught me anything, it's that there's social inertia to things.
Hopefully, some day, all Melee tournaments will be 20XX modded with auto l-canceling, and Project M will be auto-l-cancel by default. This might be far in the future because of the inaccessibility of Melee mods, and many players won't want to practice with something that won't be what they work with in tournament. But, that can be overcome, since they don't have to change their muscle memory at all, and if they can be convinced that it's just them playing at an automatically slightly higher level, it's just that all missed L-cancels will become successful, so they can just not worry about that.
That would mean those with access to Melee mods be at an advantage, however slight, since what they practice with be entirely consistent with the tournament experience.

Edit: There are two small fears, though. It may shift the favor too much in offense, for even the highest of players can be forced to miss l-cancel. How exactly, I don't know, it's just a vague fear.
The second is it could cause a division in the community, however slight, since some tournaments might be running it and some wont, so those who want to go to other regions / larger tournaments might not be used to having to l-cancel, thus just straight not want to go. Note, there's no need for a hostile cultural divide, it'd just be that players would lose passion for playing more broadly due the difference.

 

[McWaffles]

I understand the developers want the skill gap between casual and hardcore players to be as drastic as possible, but why not include an option to have L Cancelling be automatic? It doesn't sound like there's ever a time where you don't want to L Cancel, which makes me question why this mechanic is part of the game instead of just making it automatic by default. With this in mind, why can't Project M make it optional for players who don't want to deal with this annoying mechanic? I have very lousy finger joints, which makes it difficult enough to play Smash 4 competitively. With Project M in its current state, it's too demanding for my hands to consider playing it competitively. I find wave dashing difficult as well, but its existence in Project M doesn't bother me anywhere near as much because wave dashing is added depth that doesn't feel pointless and it creates unique gameplay opportunities otherwise not possible.

Well, there is auto lcancelling, in the apex build lol

 

[Rawkobo]

oh boy more opinions from a random incoming

I can't really see myself defending L-Cancelling. While I could defend wavedashing, because I find that having it as a movement option is superb, there's really not that much preventing all aerials from being auto-cancelled.

The thing about bringing up Melee in this context is that PM is (theoretically supposed to be) less technically demanding, while still having a decently high skill ceiling. The skill floor itself should in fact be a bit lower, mostly because stuff like dashdancing doesn't have technical limitations on the controller itself. So whenever somebody says something in PM is hard, I'm like, "But have you played Melee?" It's not to say the game is loads easier, per se, but despite the 1 frame physics delay, PM gives you everything out of the gate to fool around with without forcing you to grind out your hands most of the time. Which actually makes it sound like auto-L-cancels would fit naturally.

The only counterargument I could possibly think of at this point is that, personally, it prevents my hands from being lazy, which I've noticed is a huge thing for gamers in general. As long as your hands are doing something and you're moving, you're actively at the ready to respond to something. So proposing the removal of something that keeps my hands moving is not actually something I'm a huge fan of. It's the one reason I'm not big on Smash 4; I like the game, but I'm not moving my hands a lot more like I've adjusted myself to doing, which makes me feel like I'm doing a whole lot of nothing, even if that can happen regardless of pressing buttons.

Though, now that I think about it, if I'm learning the fundamentals of gameplay and suddenly the option gets removed at tournaments, how will I know that my practice will have paid off if I lose to somebody who's put less time into the game to get to basically the same place? Maybe it's reading too much into it, but how much of a demotivator would it be if you put 3+ years to start taking off at your locals/regionals, and the guy who's only played for a week and is completely new to Smash as a fighting game beats you? Maybe he's a natural, but that's rare.

I'm making it sound like L-Cancelling is a representation of skill with that paragraph. It's not, but whenever I think about "removing something to raise the skill floor," I always consider the people who put in time and effort to get to where they are.

 

[Bleck]

if you practice for three years and some person picks up the game in a week and beats you, it's not because of l-canceling, it's because you're bad

 

[Rawkobo]

if you practice for three years and some person picks up the game in a week and beats you, it's not because of l-canceling, it's because you're bad

1) A week was a drastic measure as I just woke up. Let's say two years with L-Cancelling as legitimate tech compared to 6 months/a year with automatic L-Cancelling. You still have to incorporate everything, even if it's "easy."

2) The example was made as more of a gesture to if we proposed more lazy overrides to tech that doesn't even create that big a divide in the first place.

 

[Ningildo]

Yeah, divides need to be there, but it needs purpose other then "bcuz melee". Other tech give you options that require experience to master....

No, I can't, I'm sorry. Please read the thread for arguments both pro and contra, because I'm tired of saying the exact same **** to some guy who decided to enter the discussion and state points that might have already been made, but he wouldn't know because he didn't read the thread before hand.

If I sound generalizing/ignorant/like an asshole, then I apologize, but I'm tired of seeing circles in a discussion (which usually mean a discussion has died or is close to it) mostly because of people described above.

Gonna try and wait for the next L-cancelling thread before making another post regarding this subject. I wish I was joking, but we'll see one a month later after this one gets locked/dies, probably.

 

[platologic]

1) A week was a drastic measure as I just woke up. Let's say two years with L-Cancelling as legitimate tech compared to 6 months/a year with automatic L-Cancelling. You still have to incorporate everything, even if it's "easy."

Time doesn't matter, be it a week, a year, or a decade. If you lose to a player who has spent less time playing than you, it means they know how to practice better than you.

2) The example was made as more of a gesture to if we proposed more lazy overrides to tech that doesn't even create that big a divide in the first place.

If it doesn't create that big of a divide, then why does it exist? Your argument is self-defeating.

I don't get why people don't see this. People make the argument, "If you remove L-canceling then we'll start losing to scrubs and noobs." No, you'll start losing to players who, instead of grinding out meaningless tech skill, are actually playing the game. All the time they would have spent learning how to press a button within 7 frames of landing can be spent learning spacing and punishing, learning matchups, learning which stages to ban/counterpick, not to mention all the other tech skill this game has to offer that actually makes a difference (e.g. wavedashing).

If that bothers you, if you're honestly worried that auto L-canceling means you're going to lose more, the solution is simple: get better.

If I sound generalizing/ignorant/like an *******, then I apologize, but I'm tired of seeing circles in a discussion (which usually mean a discussion has died or is close to it) mostly because of people described above.

This.

 

[Rawkobo]

If it doesn't create that big of a divide, then why does it exist? Your argument is self-defeating.

I don't get why people don't see this. People make the argument, "If you remove L-canceling then we'll start losing to scrubs and noobs." No, you'll start losing to players who, instead of grinding out meaningless tech skill, are actually playing the game. All the time they would have spent learning how to press a button within 7 frames of landing can be spent learning spacing and punishing, learning matchups, learning which stages to ban/counterpick, not to mention all the other tech skill this game has to offer that actually makes a difference (e.g. wavedashing).

If that bothers you, if you're honestly worried that auto L-canceling means you're going to lose more, the solution is simple: get better.

The point of it was supposed to be self-defeating, though. The benefits are clear and I agree with them completely.

But I will say I don't agree on forcing people to adhere to either.

 

[Bleck]

1) A week was a drastic measure as I just woke up. Let's say two years with L-Cancelling as legitimate tech compared to 6 months/a year with automatic L-Cancelling. You still have to incorporate everything, even if it's "easy."

you can change either period of time to any possibly length and my response would still be the same; if someone beats you at the game, it's because they were better than you (barring something like latency issues online)

 

[platologic]

Just read an excerpt from an interview with ex-Capcom designer Seth Killian. Thought I'd share.

Emphasis mine.

"I think there are a lot of fighting-game mechanics that are physically harder than they really need to be," said Killian.
<<snip>>
"Fighters will always have a high skill cap, but I’d like to see less emphasis on that stuff so more people can discover the real magic behind the games. Depth and complexity aren’t the same thing," said Killian.

Source: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...mechanics-are-physically-harder-they-need-be/

 

[QuickRat]

I don't know why some people say this is indefensible. I like it, I find it maybe the easiest technique in the game and I enjoy that, if failed because you lose concentration, you are going to be exposed to your enemy. I understand some arguments supporting auto-L-cancel, but I don't see it as a good option.

 

[robosteven]

To reply to the OP, I'd personally love for there to be an auto l-cancel option like there is with the input assist option.

The point made about input assist not really being requested as official for tournaments was solid and reminds me how little chaos would actually result if an auto l-cancel option were added.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

If only certain non l cancelled moves had special landing hitboxes or something, it would add some depth to the mechanic and give players more options and control.

Hey I can dream can't I?

 

[robosteven]

If only certain non l cancelled moves had special landing hitboxes or something, it would add some depth to the mechanic and give players more options and control.

Hey I can dream can't I?

Kirby's dair in 64 had something like that.

The issue there is that the hit was useless and the endlag for not l-cancelling dair was massive.

 

[Quillion]

Challenge for everyone here:

Find a replacement for L-cancelling that maintains the speedy flow of this game. Auto-L-cancelling will lead to lame play, so find a way to replace it that doesn't cause lame play.

Because even though Brawl/SmashU's slowness and Melee/PM's speed are opposites, they both lead to the same outcome if they're mastered. It's just happens that it takes longer to master Melee and PM and therefore it's much more rewarding and satisfying.

 

[Bleck]

Auto-L-cancelling will lead to lame play, so find a way to replace it that doesn't cause lame play.

no it won't

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Challenge for everyone here:

Find a replacement for L-cancelling that maintains the speedy flow of this game. Auto-L-cancelling will lead to lame play, so find a way to replace it that doesn't cause lame play.

Because even though Brawl/SmashU's slowness and Melee/PM's speed are opposites, they both lead to the same outcome if they're mastered. It's just happens that it takes longer to master Melee and PM and therefore it's much more rewarding and satisfying.

Why do we need one on the first place? I'd be willing compromise if it added more gameplay, real interaction and all that like a meter so it had choice.

 

[GP&B]

If the meta is already at a state which you consider "lame" (which is extremely subjective and also ignores that 99% of fighters boil down to safe approaches into optimized punishes), auto L-canceling wouldn't have any effect on this. Players will continue to play in such a fashion whether or not some flimsy button press is in the way of that.

 

[QuickRat]

Auto L-cancel as an option could be valid outside competitive play. But begging for putting it as standard is like eliminating bouncing the ball in basket. It's something that requires you to be concentrated, to be inside the game. If you fail, you are going to be punished. Coordination can be a good skill floor.

 

[Quillion]

(which is extremely subjective and also ignores that 99% of fighters boil down to safe approaches into optimized punishes)

If you really think this…

Well, why are you even here?

What's your point in even sticking with Project M if you think this? If you really consider PM to be no different from any other Smash game, just

video removed by shadic, the jerk.

 

[GP&B]

If you really think this…

Well, why are you even here?

What's your point in even sticking with Project M if you think this? If you really consider PM to be no different from any other Smash game, just

still removed by shadic. yup

Are you seriously going to disagree with that notion? It's astounding how consistently you demonstrate your lack of knowledge in general fighting game meta. Even significant differences in mechanics does not change the nature of how a fighting game is ultimately played when performed at the highest level. Bait and punish, proper spacing, and throwing out your safest moves to attack your opponent are all components of being successful any fighting game. How it's done is what really separates games from each other, but it's unbelievable that you think this is somehow exclusive to PM or even Melee.

Also, that's a pretty rude video coming from the guy who says the community is worse than MLP and Sonic combined. Maybe you should do some introspection and see that you're probably the one contributing to it.

 

[robosteven]

I didn't think this thread would get any worse but then someone just has to come in and prove me wrong

 

[himemiya]

I wouldn't think there'd be more to discuss on "why can't pmbr make lcanceling eaiser for n00bs to do," Because melee thats why!

 

[robosteven]

I wouldn't think there'd be more to discuss on "why can't pmbr make lcanceling eaiser for n00bs to do," Because melee thats why!

Well, the original post is about making it an option, some of us (myself included) replied with full-on discussion about the mechanic itself. Bcuz maylay is more or less the actual reason.

If all moves had half landing lag by default in Melee and there was no way to increase/decrease the lag via a button press, nobody would suggest adding the mechanic in.

If l-cancelling wasn't in Melee we wouldn't be discussing how dumb a mechanic it is in PM.