why is samus only middle tier?

[Corigames]

i was talking about her fmash/dmash(kinda)
also her projectile game gets somewhat shut down if the opponent gets close.

I think you are right. If Samus had faster moves, or, at least, they paid off more when you actually landed them, then she would probably higher in the tiers. However, I think that's about one of the only things that you could do to her without making her broken. If she got any og those "higher tiered perks," then she would be a bit overpowered in her current state. By increasing general aspects of the moves, instead of the moves themselves, you would have a solid idea on your hands.

 

[Dew Rag]

if only she had crazy combos that are inescapable like some characters....

 

[bahamutz69]

if only she had crazy combos that are inescapable like some characters....

agreed
10agrees

 

[otg]

I think the question should be, why is "samus even in mid tier". Put that ***** where she belongs.

 

[Corigames]

Has the melee Samus boards become the spam hole for the other boards or something?

 

[Tyser]

Has the melee Samus boards become the spam hole for the other boards or something?

That's what it feels like. This topic shouldnt even be discussed. Let's not turn this into a gay ass Brawl thread.

 

[Geist]

Has the melee Samus boards become the spam hole for the other boards or something?

We're the most active, so they're jealous. They just need a home.

I also whole-heartedly support everything that coreygames has said in this thread. Samus is top of the mid because she isn't as good as the characters above her, but she's better than the characters below her.
HugS needs to do more stuff and raise her a few more tiers up again IMO.

 

[puckgood]

LOL at all of these Samus mains pointing out why their character isn't that great. If someone came along and said that Samus deserved to be lower in the tiers (in another thread), they'd all attack him and say that Samus "IS GREAT!" Just for the record, Samus is exactly where she needs to be...,<.< >.> <.<

 

[Corigames]

Just for the record, Samus is exactly where she needs to be...,<.< >.> <.<

Uh... that's exactly what we've said... so... uh... learn to... um... read? Maybe?

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Fine I'll say it: Samus is only middle tier because there's not enough *smart* smash players out there who care enough to main samus and make her do well enough in tournaments so that they'll change the tier.





<_<

 

[KIngGerudo]

I use samus in teams :3 shes only mid because well, shes good but not great. she has crazy matchups that are just stupid. she is top tier in teams though

 

[Tyser]

Samus isnt higher because if she does anything but tilt and shoot, she gets ***** :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

You forgot Up+B.

 

[Tyser]

Oh yeah! That also.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

We're the most active, so they're jealous. They just need a home.

I also whole-heartedly support everything that coreygames has said in this thread. Samus is top of the mid because she isn't as good as the characters above her, but she's better than the characters below her.
HugS needs to do more stuff and raise her a few more tiers up again IMO.

Why depend on HugS? We all can try to push Samus to her limits.


Coreygames pretty much stated the "official reasons" why Samus isn't top tier, however, there are subtle reasons why she isn't top as well.

First one being that Samus doesn't possess anything overpowering like the rest of the cast. Almost everyone above her has a certain gimmick which solid players can abuse (CF/Knee, Marth/Tipper, Space Animals/Shine etc...) Samus has a balanced set of techniques but nothing to put her over the threshold.


The second reason is her power ratio. Compared to the top tiers it's quite poor. Samus' Smashes are quite weak compared to much of the cast, and easily DI'd. Most of your kills with Samus are gained by well timed projectiles and smart gimping. Usually, when you use F/D Smash a good DI-er can survive 135%+ depending on the character (Gannon is a prime example of a character that's extremely hard to kill with power alone).

The final reason is the lack of vertical killing power. A significant portion of the cast are weak to vertical kills (Jiggs/Peach/Marth) but Samus has no efficient vertical KO move. This can make certain characters very hard to kill because they can stall for exceptional periods of time while you slowly get peppered with random aerials. So if you're a stock below they can stall until they die and continue to be at an advantage percentage~wise.

 

[Forcystus]

I agree with the Red Sparrow's first reason, i think Samus just lacks in brute force compared to the top tier characters, this doesn't mean her tilts or smashes suck, they're just not as strong as for example Marth's F-smash.

And she's a well balanced character without a particularly strong move like the shine or Marth's F-smash, then again Sheik doesn't either but I guess she has speed or something else, what is her strong move exactly ?

@ Red Sparrow: for your second reason. What difference does it actually make if the opponent can DI your f-smash for example, when normally high level players can make a certain edgeguard kill ,(which they can I assume...), or if the opponent can't recover anyway (very likely after a close DI)?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

And she's a well balanced character without a particularly strong move like the shine or Marth's F-smash, then again Sheik doesn't either but I guess she has speed or something else, what is her strong move exactly ?

Sheik's most broken move is probably her dthrow. Her grab range is great, her speed allows her to get grabs easily, and then each grab leads into at least a free hit on every character, even KO move(s) at high percent? WTF.
Though I guess you don't have to worry about that with the PAL version.

 

['Fro]

Yup.... Samus suffers from typical mid-tier syndrome. I've always thought that she could be higher if she was given one tool comparable to those of the characters above her. Anything would have worked, really. As it stands, there' very little that she does that another character can't do better. Staying power and edge-gaurding are, for me, her strongest points, but some match-ups can render either one oboslete. Hell, some match-ups make both of those points seems less useful.

@ KinGerudo: Samus isn't great in teams at all. She tanks stocks really well, but her projectiles are risky and she can't help her teammates out enough. She can't head into the fray, especially when a bunch of high-priority hit-boxes are getting thrown around. It destroyed our team in the last tourney I played.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

I@ Red Sparrow: for your second reason. What difference does it actually make if the opponent can DI your f-smash for example, when normally high level players can make a certain edgeguard kill ,(which they can I assume...), or if the opponent can't recover anyway (very likely after a close DI)?

Samus' main smashes hits up/forward, which is very easy to DI compared with say, the Knee which is just a forward DI'd move. The power of Forward Smash is more like a slightly powerful tilt rather than a killing move, it's priority is also not overwhelming.

 

[Mars-]

Im not a tournament goer unfortunately but i know my stuff.

This is where I stopped reading this stupid question.

 

[JELLYHEAD]

Samus seems great on paper, I found the same thing when I started out with her; why does this character with so many great aspects come so low on tiers?

Basically it comes down to a few things, samus can't really shield grab. That may seem minor but it's actually pretty significant, yes she can UP B out of shield but the inability to shield grab attack leaves her at a substantial dis advantage.

Another factor is her seemingly amazing projectiles, the top 6 have methods of dealing with them. Marth/Sheik can easily swat them away, Fox/Falco can reflect, Peach can clank them with turnips and Falcon struggles more at a distance but if you are mid range from falcon shooting missles it's an invite for him to approach you.

Also when you start playing higher level players you wil get combo'd, she's actually really easy to combo because of her floatiness, just not in the same way as say Fox/Falcon is easy to combo.

I hope that clears things up a bit for you? I don't know whether people would agree...but anyway just btw I mained Samus for a long time but I found her really tough to take on the higher standard players with and switched to fox/peach.

I most definately agree with this, (samus actually has the matchup advantage against peach) the reason she's at the top of mid-tier and no higher is due to her lack of shieldgrab but also the fact that her roll doesn't go very far and does so very slowly, compare this to shiek who's roll is useful or peach perhaps and lets place them against a fox who's drillshining the crap out of their shield, samus can shield upB really easily to deal with shield pressure like this... but fox will hit the ground first meaning she can usually get punished without ledge cancelling or landing on a platform etc.
Peach on the other hand could roll, short hop an nair or shield upB or if she has inch-perfect timing perform a shield grab

In this instance Samus has only ONE option to avoid punishment and when your opponent knows your only option it's easy to bait and easy to punish, her lack of shield tactics are what push her down in the tier list - Samus has extreme capability in every aspect of the game other than this, she is the 3rd heaviest character (4th in Pal) has the most versatile recovery (which unfortunately can be gimped by jigs and occasionally sheik or peach) she is floaty and therefore extremely hard to combo (falcon gets auto combos on her cuz of this) and even has an auto escape method from the IC's chaingrab (not edgechaingrab nobody can get away from that) So she's great on paper... but oh what's all that in the brackets up there the exceptions to the rules which make her so wonderful, yeah she has good matchups against peach and IC's goes alright against jigs but most of the top 8 characters have something they can exploit, Samus who is used to control the stage and force people to approach loses this edge against fox, falco, sheik, link and younglink all of whom can force HER to do the approaching, against peach or jigs they can simply avoid all her projectiles all day long and outdo her on aerial mobility and recovery speed...

The tier list is in place to demonstrate character potential, the potential to be awesome with that character and how much ease one can do it with; the higher the character the less gaping flaws they posess or the more auto-combos etc. to quote a famous Samus player "tiers don exists" Samus is as good as you'll make her; she has all the right tools to **** around with anyone and win but you have to play it smart and compensate for her flaws (use her broken backward wavedash out of shield) if you've ever seen HugS play then you know that this can be done and used to beat the top players of any character... except Mango

But to address the topic of the thread once more her position on the tier list is where it should be, it does not indicate her worth rather her relative ease of use at a high competitive level as opposed to the characters above her if you've ever seen Taj or Axe play then you'd know that a character is only as good as you make them.

 

[Pi]

did you juss say samus does better vs. jiggs & peach than she does vs. falco, fox, and marth?
also
tiers are stupid
matchups are stupid
everyone is fallible

 

[Tyserification]

YAY FOR POSTING 10 MONTHS AFTER THE LAST POSTER! BRAVO TO YOU! BRA-FUCKING-VO!

Spoiler

sorry, had to do it.

 

[Dogysamich]

This dawn-of-the-year nonsen~~~

*close*

~~get this the **** outta here.

Talk about it in the general discussion thread