Why is online in this game so bad?

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Coolboy

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no, I cant, because any match that is not 1v1 is super lagged to me, this includes 2v2 and FFA that has 3 other players, not counting me. Also, this that you are talking about is not a thing about "being good at", is what I (or any other person) like to play. I'm also very far from being good at competitive 1v1 matches, it doesnt mean I enjoy the crazyness of free-for-all with items, specially when I dont want to play this way. This is also not the first Smash game of most people here probably, people already know which modes they like and how they like to enjoy Smash, just saying "Play more FFA" or "get better in these modes" is just irrelevant, cause people probably already gave a lot of chances for all these modes, and they just already know what they like. If the developers dont provide a good space for competitive Smash, players are just on their right to be disappointed by that.

Today I had an almost excelent experience with Online Tournament. It was set to 2-Stock 1v1 battles with no items or FS, and it was just the most fun I had with Smash Ultimate online since release date, cause it was like having a "For Glory" button there, that I could click and I would find a simple 1v1 stock match in omega stages, with almost no lag too because it was just 1v1 matches. I just wanted that to be avaiable to me forever, but I dont know when this will return because the rulesets has some rotation.
ah that makes me understand it better! i know we all got preferences, i do like FFA but i play it more without items then with,
my wifi extender works good enough other then communication error sometimes kicking me out of the loading screen..sometimes twice in a row,
but i can really recommend a good wifi extender, solves 90% of the internet problems.. (i don't do old school so no wired connection for me lol) you still get communication errors but now if i am in a laggy match i know it's not me at least haha and FFA matches i rarely have lag i would say if i play 20 FFA matches i think 2 or 3 could be laggy..
it's just people like to **** on FFA because it's not 1v1 and i got that vibe from your previous comment but now i understand what you meant ^^''
 
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lucasla

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ah that makes me understand it better! i know we all got preferences, i do like FFA but i play it more without items then with,
my wifi extender works good enough other then communication error sometimes kicking me out of the loading screen..sometimes twice in a row,
but i can really recommend a good wifi extender, solves 90% of the internet problems.. (i don't do old school so no wired connection for me lol) you still get communication errors but now if i am in a laggy match i know it's not me at least haha and FFA matches i rarely have lag i would say if i play 20 FFA matches i think 2 or 3 could be laggy..
it's just people like to **** on FFA because it's not 1v1 and i got that vibe from your previous comment but now i understand what you meant ^^''
I have one, it helps a bit on 1v1 games, but games with more players are always lagged anyway, so I dont play them. This is sad because I also downloaded Brawlhalla, a game that I dont like, but is at the same style of Smash (just more simple), and it run flawless with any ammount of players online. The difference is that this free, small, indie, irrelevant game to me, has dedicated servers, while the $60+$25(dlc)+$10(online) superproduction doesnt provide dedicated servers to us, and is the only game here that doesnt work properly. Coincidence? I dont think so.
 
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Kiligar

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Oh yeah, I want to talk about an aspect of Quickplay I call, the “Low GSP Monster”. Basically a serious player with mad skill and a low GSP, which means if you lose, which is likely, your GSP is going down hard. I really don’t even want to touch Quickplay, I feel like I’m gambling whenever I get ready for a match. Addicting in a bad way.
 

J.I.L

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Just played 8 games of quickplay, made me remember how much of an disgrace the creators of this game are. I have to deal with hero players, rage quitters because when they rage quit you don’t get any gsp (a dumb mechanic instituted by probably very stupid people), other cheap chraracters like Zelda and the bloody awful gsp system.


The creators of this game really went out of their way to make the most putrid online system I’ve ever seen. Beating a dead horse here, but people need to be reminded how trash this game is. The most overrated smash game in history.
 

TheDuke54

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I barely touch Smash Ultimate online and when compared to Smash4 (and even Brawl/Melee/and 64 although those were strictly with friends most of the time) it'd probably show up as 1%(or singles) to their 99%. Can't remember the last time I actually played the game besides recently because my young cousin came over and really wanted to play it.

The last time I played online was when Hero dropped and everyone was using him almost. Occasionally I'd be thrown into 1v1 even though I didn't want it and it'd always be Hero. I usually floored all of them and if I was going to win they ragequit lol. Twice they won thanks to critcs only and for a random low percent they managed to dish it out for three stocks.
 
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Coolboy

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i am having a much more fun time gaming if i don't play Smash ultimate online..i swear i been focusing on FE Three Houses alot lately and it's such a fun game and it's also frustrate/stress free.
maaaaan even Splatoon 2 isn't that frustrating as smash (sometimes you got bad days you get chaotic teams or just bad teammates alot but meh it's what it is)

you know when you don't play smash online you start to remember how fun a game actually is because Smash feels like it's not fun anymore after 1 or 2 matches because of that matchmaking >~>
and after going through Hero hell multiple times with sometimes winning and sometimes losing i just kinda had it with the game..a very cheap character for people to use whoohooo -.- *obviously sarscasm*
 

J.I.L

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I barely touch Smash Ultimate online and when compared to Smash4 (and even Brawl/Melee/and 64 although those were strictly with friends most of the time) it'd probably show up as 1%(or singles) to their 99%. Can't remember the last time I actually played the game besides recently because my young cousin came over and really wanted to play it.

The last time I played online was when Hero dropped and everyone was using him almost. Occasionally I'd be thrown into 1v1 even though I didn't want it and it'd always be Hero. I usually floored all of them and if I was going to win they ragequit lol. Twice they won thanks to critcs only and for a random low percent they managed to dish it out for three stocks.
I barley play quickplay anymore. But I still do play a lot of smash. I usually only play on tournaments (I’ve won over 20 of them) and battle arenas.
 

TheDuke54

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lol I never said that Hero was cheap. He is too random at times. It's just annoying about the critical smash attacks. Especially when it's supposedly random and hard to get and I lost all three of my stocks that way.

I tried battle arenas. But it's probably only good if you have a group you know to join. I've wasted too much time waiting for a match to start to realize it's a taunt party, quickplay cheese matches disguised as BA, or I was kicked/the game ended. I haven't tried the tournament mode yet, but I've heard mixed reviews. Considering how QP and BA are, my hopes aren't that high.
 

Grimel

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i am having a much more fun time gaming if i don't play Smash ultimate online..i swear i been focusing on FE Three Houses alot lately and it's such a fun game and it's also frustrate/stress free.
maaaaan even Splatoon 2 isn't that frustrating as smash (sometimes you got bad days you get chaotic teams or just bad teammates alot but meh it's what it is)

you know when you don't play smash online you start to remember how fun a game actually is because Smash feels like it's not fun anymore after 1 or 2 matches because of that matchmaking >~>
and after going through Hero hell multiple times with sometimes winning and sometimes losing i just kinda had it with the game..a very cheap character for people to use whoohooo -.- *obviously sarscasm*
Same. The online makes me not want to play Ultimate and I don't have anyone to play with in real life anymore. Offline the game is great. Been playing Fire Emblem Three Houses and just finished my first playthrough with the Golden Deer. Now I am on my second playthrough with the Black Eagles.
 
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The only good thing about online, specifically Quickplay, is that it's likely to put you up against players near, on, or above your level. That's it. The downside to it is constantly having to work for GSP just to maintain an abstract status that is Elite Smash.
 

TheDuke54

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^ That and matches start very quickly, hence the name lol. I tried BA and it took too long to wait for one match every 3-5 minutes that I just decided to deal with QP's crap.
 
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^ That and matches start very quickly, hence the name lol. I tried BA and it took too long to wait for one match every 3-5 minutes that I just decided to deal with QP's crap.
I tend to find better players in QP than in BA. Lately, people in BA have been kicking me out and I'm not sure why. Or, in Veteran or Glorious Smash, people are setting up rooms with things like Hazards On, Final Smash meter on, Custom Stages on, or a mix of those three. I find it strange because there are other areas where you can have all of those set up and those would be preferred. I like to think of Veteran and Glorious Smash as more serious places, but with these preferences, I'm questioning it now.
 
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TheDuke54

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Sounds more like people are abusing the system to troll. For example I don't know what playground's settings were intended for, but it's where taunt parties are.
 

Xelrog

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I don't really get the complaints, at least relative to other Smash games. 9 out of 10 Quickplay matches for me are perfectly playable--tolerable lag, reasonably competitive ruleset (no items or non-BF/O). In Smash 4, I found 9 out of 10 matches were unplayable because of the delay. For Fun/For Glory isn't even a factor if I can't play the game.

Even compared to other fighting games I'm not sure I understand the hate. Any game this precise is going to require a very high standard for online responsiveness and Nintendo could've done way, way worse. In fact I've seen way, way worse from them since this game, that being Mario Maker 2.
 

TheDuke54

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What I liked about Smash4 for fun was that items were set on to a default drop rate. They couldn't be changed to say only pokeballs or assists dropped on the highest drop. You knew what game you were going to come into. For fun was items and normally casuals. 4glory was no items and usually more on the competitive side. It wasn't the best, but it was still playable and enjoyable. I don't really find myself having fun like I did on the other versions when it comes to Ultimate.

Granted towards the end 4fun became taunt parties only and that was annoying.

And again if you're just doing 1on1 that's the reason they seem fine to you.
 
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I don't really get the complaints, at least relative to other Smash games. 9 out of 10 Quickplay matches for me are perfectly playable--tolerable lag, reasonably competitive ruleset (no items or non-BF/O). In Smash 4, I found 9 out of 10 matches were unplayable because of the delay. For Fun/For Glory isn't even a factor if I can't play the game.

Even compared to other fighting games I'm not sure I understand the hate. Any game this precise is going to require a very high standard for online responsiveness and Nintendo could've done way, way worse. In fact I've seen way, way worse from them since this game, that being Mario Maker 2.
Quickplay is usually decent, but lately I've been having some latency issues, and this is something I would expect from bad weather, not weather during summertime. In SSB4, latency became a problem if the weather was poor, such as rain or thunderstorms, or if the player was from a particular location, which I won't say because people are sensitive. Spring and summer were fine, and it wasn't until autumn might pose a problem. Yet, even on cloudy days, I was able to play without noticeable latency for the most part.

When it comes to SSBU, I've experienced more latency problems by comparison to SSB4. Things seem to run smoother in Public Arenas for some reason, even if I'm unable to get into Elite Smash at the time due to connection. My biggest issue is Elite Smash. Now, I've been in it since the day I started playing online, but I find it rather disrespectful to those who have tried to enter Elite Smash and have had no success. I also don't see why it couldn't be removed, since it honestly doesn't serve a purpose. If there is a purpose, such as collecting information, this can be done without Elite Smash.

Both GSP and Elite Smash has made SSBU a chore for me. It's no fun and it's tedious, due to the Elo ranking system. What I work for can easily be lost in less than an hour, even though I could be spending a couple of hours a day trying to reach where I was before. One might ask, "Why not just quit?" Because I've owned this game since its release and have invested too much time and have gotten too far to just drop it now. When I began playing SSB4, I was two years behind compared to the rest of the world, but I had fun competing.

Should SSB6 ever happen, I'll decide whether or not it'll be worth purchasing. If there are too many characters, or if there is another ranking system that relies on the Elo ranking system, I'll be sure not to purchase the next game. It's not worth my time, money, nor the stress and anxiety that comes with it.
 

Xelrog

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Both GSP and Elite Smash has made SSBU a chore for me. It's no fun and it's tedious, due to the Elo ranking system.
By that reasoning, then, would not Smash Ultimate be no worse than any of the other multitude of online games that use this rating system? For that matter, what's a more functional alternative? It's not that I don't understand that people have problems with Ultimate, it's the hyperbole I don't understand. As if it's so much worse than other online games, which all seem to have a multitude of imperfections.
 
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By that reasoning, then, would not Smash Ultimate be no worse than any of the other multitude of online games that use this rating system? For that matter, what's a more functional alternative? It's not that I don't understand that people have problems with Ultimate, it's the hyperbole I don't understand. As if it's so much worse than other online games, which all seem to have a multitude of imperfections.
I've heard other fighting games have better online services. I can only take their word because I don't play other fighting games. I heard Tekken 7 has the best ranking system, but it doesn't seem the developer or company has revealed how the ranking system works. Instead, it seems players have figured it out. The Elo ranking system punishes you harshly for losing to someone who doesn't have as many points and rewards you with very few points for winning against someone who doesn't have similar or equal points. The hours you spend gaining 10k GSP, for example, can be lost in minutes. I don't understand why I have to play against people with GSP that's about 20k or 30k lower than my own, yet you'd think I'd be playing against those with 20k to 30k higher than me, since I'm lower than them.
 

TheDuke54

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I don't play a lot of online games with ranking systems, but the fact that winners don't get their share that they deserve if someone ragequits is bull. I can't imagine that being common for all online games since I'm pretty sure I would hear about it through the grapvine.
 

boysilver400

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Some idiot came into my arena picking mementos when I clearly put “legal” on my title(probably should’ve added stages, though.) and I kicked him out of my arena, only for him to barge back on in. This stupid *** mode needs to disallow people to go back into lobbies once they’ve been kicked. Maybe not forever but for at least as long as they have the arena up.
 

J.I.L

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Some idiot came into my arena picking mementos when I clearly put “legal” on my title(probably should’ve added stages, though.) and I kicked him out of my arena, only for him to barge back on in. This stupid *** mode needs to disallow people to go back into lobbies once they’ve been kicked. Maybe not forever but for at least as long as they have the arena up.
The "Kick" option is stupid. If you wanted only legal stages, you should put it on random so you only get LEGAL stages.

Battle arenas should be public instead of private made by owners. Then in each arena mode, have a standard ruleset that is compabtile with most of the player base. This would literally elimnate abuse from owners who kick people like warlord-complex deliquent children. And in this public areanas, you have basic cutomizble rulesets.

This is apart o the many reason why this online system is literally dog waist made by people who are a disgrace. WE HAVE probably come up with 100s of REASONABLE ways on this forum alone how this online system could have been better. And we are just commenters on a online forum, they are millionare corparte bodies. It's just a shame. Stinking snake oil men. Their revenues from this online stream should be confiscated, and compensated back to the unfortnate victims who had bought and suffered in this atrcious excuse on an online.
 
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Noss92

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Some days ago i had the occasion to try to play Smash connecting 2 different Switch and... Here where the Smash 4 friend lobbies went. It works exactly like that. You create a room, the other switch joins and gives you a notification if you want to let them play. You can quick change rules, set CPUs players, change characters whenever you want... If only this was possible online....
 

lucasla

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I don't really get the complaints, at least relative to other Smash games. 9 out of 10 Quickplay matches for me are perfectly playable--tolerable lag, reasonably competitive ruleset (no items or non-BF/O). In Smash 4, I found 9 out of 10 matches were unplayable because of the delay. For Fun/For Glory isn't even a factor if I can't play the game.
For me, 9 ou of 10 games are fine, but only in 1v1 matches. I can only play 1v1, cause 2v2 or FFA (any game with 3 or 4 players) are unplayable because of lag. This alone restricts the content I can enjoy of the game to less than half of the content the game provides.

Even compared to other fighting games I'm not sure I understand the hate. Any game this precise is going to require a very high standard for online responsiveness and Nintendo could've done way, way worse. In fact I've seen way, way worse from them since this game, that being Mario Maker 2.
Other fighting games are just 1v1 games, Smash can be up to 4 players (and could even be 8 if they had a decent online infrastructure). There are a lot of precise games out there. Any shooter requires a lot of precision, and there are games already with 100 players in a single match. Smash is not special or complex enough to justify the lack of a good online system, cause it is the only - THE ONLY - online game I have today that runs terribly. Even Brawlhalla works better, being an indie and free game. I dont think that "could be worse" is a good metric.
 
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I understand that I'm losing today, but this is the problem with Elite Trash. I ended up having to fight a Cloud who had his preferences set at 3-stock, 3 minutes, with Final Smash meter on. That's completely and utterly unacceptable. Had I lost, I would have much to lose. I didn't gain anything from winning, except a few, measly points. Oh, wow. :rolleyes:
 

lucasla

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If we also think about how many Nintendo games need dedicated servers.. well.. for some reason, Splatoon and Mario Kart 8 works super fine. The other relevant online games they have are Smash, Mario Maker 2 and Mario Tennis Aces. These three games run very poorly.

Even Mario Tennis Aces.. jesus.. I remember playing Wii Sports Club online on my old WiiU with no problem at all most of the matches, but Mario Tennis Aces, a 1v1, $60 game, I was never to play a match with no lag since release date, and the Tennis game of Wii Sports Club was only $10 and used motion controls, while Mario Tennis is just the regular digital button input! I already passed this game to someone else, cause I was just not playing it enough to keep it instead of trade for another game.

When we look to the ammount of online games they should have to support with dedicated servers, it's 3. Just three games. And their games basically never drops the $60 price and they have the yearly charge now for the online service. Many online games from other companies dont have this yearly money. Overwatch, Rainbow Six Siege, PUBG, you pay one time and never more, and these games are already avaiable for years and had a lot of price drops and promotions. All these games are competitive games that require precision and that run with at least 10 players (from 5v5 of Rainbow Six and 6x6 of Overwatch and 100 players of PUBG).

If we consider the price of Smash alone, this game is $60, +$25 from the character DLCs (or $30 if you buy them separetely), +$20 for year for the online subscription.

This is not a low cost enough to justify the bad services.
I bought Overwatch for $20, and a similart price to Rainbow Six Siege, and I can play it properly, with dedicated servers, with no lag, until only god knows. This is the price I pay for the online service alone for only one year in the Switch, that should only provide servers for 3 nintendo games, since the others are ok.
 
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Sucumbio

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I played 1v1 tournament for an hour and loved it. Intense matches when did dk get good lol man he's unforgiving.
 

J.I.L

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I played 1v1 tournament for an hour and loved it. Intense matches when did dk get good lol man he's unforgiving.
The tourney was an good addition to online. They need to expand it to 64 players though during 1v1 sessions. And include team battle tourneys.
 

Predatoria

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I've heard other fighting games have better online services. I can only take their word because I don't play other fighting games. I heard Tekken 7 has the best ranking system, but it doesn't seem the developer or company has revealed how the ranking system works. Instead, it seems players have figured it out. The Elo ranking system punishes you harshly for losing to someone who doesn't have as many points and rewards you with very few points for winning against someone who doesn't have similar or equal points. The hours you spend gaining 10k GSP, for example, can be lost in minutes. I don't understand why I have to play against people with GSP that's about 20k or 30k lower than my own, yet you'd think I'd be playing against those with 20k to 30k higher than me, since I'm lower than them.

You're playing at the very top of the bracket. The game does not have an infinite amount of people queuing. It has to match you against players that are both close to you in rating and close to you geographically. The opponent it finds is a compromise of the two.

Given you're at the point where you're gaining few points for wins and taking big hits for losses, it means you have a high win / loss ratio, which means the game is incapable of finding you an opponent it deems both reasonably close geographically and close to you in skill level.

Elite Smash, by definition, is an Elo barrier defined as the upper 3.5% of players. That alone, despite what many say otherwise on these forums, is a very exclusive pool of individuals.

Here's a graphic describing this, below.

You are not just in Elite Smash. I just started hitting ES, and I get about 30-50k per win. You're getting a few k per win or less. You are probably deep in Elite Smash, and would probably destroy me online in a set. I'd likely lose to you 3 out of every 4 matches or worse, so you're absolutely at least 1, probably 2 or more standard deviations into Elite Smash.

Elo ratings, by definition, mean that one standard deviation of Elo represents 200 rating. Players that differ by 200 Elo rating, by definition, will have a 3:1 win loss rate against one another.

If the game is incapable of finding players around your Elo rating due to just how high it is, it will start pairing you against players lower than you. If you're fighting an opponent who is one standard deviation lower than you, you will beat them 3 times out of every 4, and you will lose 3x the points for each loss against this person. If both of your Elo ratings are a true reflection of your skill, you will, by the very definition of the Elo system, go 3-1 against each other, and net 0 points long-term as you perform an infinite number of matches. If your skill goes up and you can prove it, you'll go 4-1, and, at infinity, you'll gain a few points until the win / loss ratio reflects your proper Elo ratings, and you'll end up with a higher Elo score (GSP is a proxy for this), and you'll start losing 4x the points you gain against this person as your new Elo rating stabilizes.

This is going to be an issue with any matchmaking system. Players at the very top of the pool just are very few and far between. Your rating, by definition and by how Elo systems work, is high enough to where you don't get many more points pummeling the same players that are one or more standard deviations below you in Elo. When you occasionally do lose to them, you take a huge hit. If you didn't, your rating would inflate to infinity and the entire system would break down. No matter how big a player pool is, there will be people at the upper tip of the distribution who cannot often be paired against other players of similar Elo ratings.
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Wigglerman

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I typically just use the arena system. I don't use 'Elite Smash' or anything else because it's hot garbage. Arena Matches are the best way to get what you are looking for without lame players or risking getting put in a type of match you didn't want to begin with,
 

Steelmullet

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I literally had a match where before the word "GO" appeared, the other player began moving on my screen and attacked me. I couldn't move until "GO" disappeared, but they had already walked right up to me while I couldn't play.

The the actual hell is that about?

Is there so much of a lag advantage that ppl even get to start matches sooner than you? I tried playing again today after about a month hiatus, and IDK, after the hero update, the game seems about 50% worse for me.

Maybe my switch is defective. Nobody I play against seems to have the issues with the game I do...

EDIT: Also, my switch gets really hot when playing. Anyone else relate?
 
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TheDuke54

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I haven't played Smash in a while, so I can't say. I do play other games and it gets a little warm if I play for an hour or more in one sitting, but not so hot to the touch that it's uncomfortable or hurts. You might want to get that fixed if that is the case. Sounds like a fire hazard if it's getting that hot.

Also did you save any footage of these instances? Even though the games usually only save replays when Go! commences you would still capture video of them already smacking you down when they should be at their spawn point.
 

DeDeDIke

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If the game is incapable of finding players around your Elo rating due to just how high it is, it will start pairing you against players lower than you. If you're fighting an opponent who is one standard deviation lower than you, you will beat them 3 times out of every 4, and you will lose 3x the points for each loss against this person. If both of your Elo ratings are a true reflection of your skill, you will, by the very definition of the Elo system, go 3-1 against each other, and net 0 points long-term as you perform an infinite number of matches. If your skill goes up and you can prove it, you'll go 4-1, and, at infinity, you'll gain a few points until the win / loss ratio reflects your proper Elo ratings, and you'll end up with a higher Elo score (GSP is a proxy for this), and you'll start losing 4x the points you gain against this person as your new Elo rating stabilizes.

This is going to be an issue with any matchmaking system. Players at the very top of the pool just are very few and far between. Your rating, by definition and by how Elo systems work, is high enough to where you don't get many more points pummeling the same players that are one or more standard deviations below you in Elo. When you occasionally do lose to them, you take a huge hit. If you didn't, your rating would inflate to infinity and the entire system would break down. No matter how big a player pool is, there will be people at the upper tip of the distribution who cannot often be paired against other players of similar Elo ratings.
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I have two mains, and one of them is close to Elite Smash (I don't actually care about ES, since my preferred playstyle is free for alls, but that doesn't mean I avoid 1 v 1s (which I don't)). I find it funny how my two mains gain and lose different amounts of GSP even when they are very close (well they were close at one point but now there's a reasonable gap between them) on the ladder. For example, a few weeks ago both my mains were at around 4.8 mil GSP, yet when I win one match with one I only earn 35k but if I win another match with my other main, I earn 70k instead of 35k (and this is around the same GSP ballpark, my playtime and usage percentage with both are roughly equal). Weird. My King D3 is up at 5.15 mil GSP now, and it's really hard to be paired up with ppl with 5.1+ mil GSP nowadays (I usually get matched up with ppl between 4.3~5 mil GSP). I win one round, and I only get 6k~8k GSP (I believe most ppl in this range get 13~16k per win), but if I lose one round, I drop by 12k~16k. Conversely with Ike, I get 50k~60k per win at 4.9 mil GSP and lose ~80k to 100k per loss.
 

Predatoria

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I have two mains, and one of them is close to Elite Smash (I don't actually care about ES, since my preferred playstyle is free for alls, but that doesn't mean I avoid 1 v 1s (which I don't)). I find it funny how my two mains gain and lose different amounts of GSP even when they are very close (well they were close at one point but now there's a reasonable gap between them) on the ladder. For example, a few weeks ago both my mains were at around 4.8 mil GSP, yet when I win one match with one I only earn 35k but if I win another match with my other main, I earn 70k instead of 35k (and this is around the same GSP ballpark, my playtime and usage percentage with both are roughly equal). Weird. My King D3 is up at 5.15 mil GSP now, and it's really hard to be paired up with ppl with 5.1+ mil GSP nowadays (I usually get matched up with ppl between 4.3~5 mil GSP). I win one round, and I only get 6k~8k GSP (I believe most ppl in this range get 13~16k per win), but if I lose one round, I drop by 12k~16k. Conversely with Ike, I get 50k~60k per win at 4.9 mil GSP and lose ~80k to 100k per loss.
There's a wall in the system there. Basically, people in Elite Smash cannot match up against people outside of it. People outside of it cannot match up with people inside of it (or it's quite rare, not sure if it truly never happens but from my experience it seems to never happen). This is not a characteristic of a typical matchmaking system and is unique to Smash Ultimate, and it has some interesting side-effects.

If you're right below the threshold for getting into Elite Smash, you will be almost guaranteed to be fighting people with a lower Elo rating than you are. That's why you win few points, but lose many.

Take a look at the attached image. In my previous post, I stated two players who differ by 200 Elo rating will see a 3:1 win / loss rate against one another. Notice that the point the plot below crosses a 25%, or 75% win probability are at -200 and +200.

elo-curves.png


One interesting thing that can be observed here is that one may be able to deduce the actual Elo ratings from GSP by using the points gained / lost from multiple data points.

Let's say your GSP is right at 5.2 million, for example.

You lose a game against someone at 5.0 million GSP. You lose 25,000 GSP.

You again get to 5.2 million GSP and again match up against someone at 5.0 million GSP, but this time you win. You gain 11,000 GSP.

Take the ratio of the two. The game expects you to have a (25,000 / (25,000 + 11,000) = 69.44% chance of winning. Here's why, and here's where the numbers come from.

If your Elo ratings are a true reflection of your relative probability of beating this player, if you face off against each other an infinite number of times, your ratings will not change at all. They will stay entirely the same.

You have a 69.44% chance of winning. Every time you win, you receive 11,000 GSP. Every time you lose, you lose 25,000.

Perform 10000 matches.

You win 6944 of them, and lose 3056 of them.

You gain 6944*11000 GSP and lose 3056*25000 GSP.

You gain 76,384,000 GSP. You lose 76,400,000 GSP (they should be the same, but there's a bit of rounding error, since you really had a 69.44444444 repeating chance of winning).

Notice that you will stay at the same point forever if you keep winning 69.4% of the time.

Your Elo rating is thus, at 5.2 million, just by eyeballing the chart I posted, about 150 points higher than they are, or almost a standard deviation.

This is why the ratings and the GSP numbers behave as they do. All matchmaking systems do this.

I do think it's a bit silly that you can't pair up against ES members while not in it though, as having to sustain a win rate of nearly 3-1 or better to get in there is a bit annoying (and once you get in, you're almost guaranteed to fight a player with a higher Elo rating, of whom you have a <50% shot at winning against getting boot right back out!), but do keep in mind you are also fighting opponents with much lower Elo ratings than you have, and you have gotten skilled to a point where you can do that 2-1 or 3-1 win rate and succeed.

All the numbers here make sense if you look at your GSP, their GSP, the amount you won, the amount you lose (though getting a win / loss pair of data is a bit of a pain here since you'll be unlikely to match up with identical values for testing purposes).

In fact, if you want to get the best possible win / loss rate, your best bet is to deliberately stay right before Elite Smash and fight opponents who are guaranteed to be a lower Elo than you. When I was trying to build up to getting into Elite Smash, I was stuck right before it for several play sessions. My win rate was around 69% or so (which is between a 2:1 and 3:1 win ratio), pairing mostly up against upper 4m's or low 5m players. My example above may not actually be that far off from the true values.
 
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TheDuke54

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I fought a few people who were definitely in Elite Smash when one of my fighters is not. One that I am remembering right was around the 6mil area and I think that is elite smash territory. They were also really good, but they got paired with my 3mil fighter and two other guys who were in the 1 or 2mil area who got curb stomped by him.

It's an interesting system, but it's also very janky.
 

Noss92

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The recent datamine looks promising for the online mode, with 3 new modes spotted. Probably squad strike, smashdown and an unknown one. Still ridiculous since these modes should have been avaiable since Day one lol
 

Predatoria

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I fought a few people who were definitely in Elite Smash when one of my fighters is not. One that I am remembering right was around the 6mil area and I think that is elite smash territory. They were also really good, but they got paired with my 3mil fighter and two other guys who were in the 1 or 2mil area who got curb stomped by him.

It's an interesting system, but it's also very janky.
I suspect the player pool for competitive free for alls is substantially lower than that for 1v1 ranked matchmaking queuing.


Predatoria Predatoria a more sophisticated online system then smash 4s for glory yet it is much worse in actual enjoyment and approval. Ridiculous.
What positive experiences did you have with Smash 4's For Glory Mode in regards to matchmaking?

How were they different than the current matchmaking system?

I'm not talking about being paired against players with differing rulesets. I think we can all agree that's annoying, and that most players would prefer to have a longer queue time or be paired with less ideal opponents than they would to be paired against someone with a ruleset they deem unacceptable.

I am discussing strictly match-making. I would suspect the caveats of the system to be similar, though I never played Smash 4 online.
 
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