Why is Ness so bad?

[platiepoos]

Although I am very new to the Melee scene, playing against some of my close friends I have taken a very strong liking to Ness. I absolutely destroy all of my friends, even though they play just as much and just as frequently as I do. And yet, Ness is located at the very bottom of the tier list! (My friends and I are not yet what is considered tournament viable yet however.)
Some things that IMO make Ness good:
-Very powerful aerials, made better with DJC
-UpB is versatile, albeit difficult to control and doubles as a projectile.
-Experienced players can control Ness at incredible speeds comparable to some of the cast due to low startup of his aeials and DJC
-Semi decent projectile in PK Fire that sets up for combos
-PSI Magnet makes lazors useless
-Juggles fast fallers with ease
-Better than average WD (I think...)
-Sweetspotted dash attack sets up for edgeguarding, juggling, and bairs
-Powerful throws

My guess is that what really hurts Ness is his abysmal range on most of his attacks, and the fact that his grabs are some of the shortest in the game. Please elaborate masters of Ness, and what can I do to overcome his said disadvantages?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

pikachu has the shortest grab range and most ness's smashes suck and it's harder to play as him compared to falco and other people and his B sucks and down B is rarely useful and dude ness doesn't suck it's there are much better moves like marth's fair and fox's down B and does ness have anything that useful?

 

[victra♥]

Ness is pretty dominate in Low Tier tournaments usually, but his recovery is easily gimpable, it's impossible to grab (which in turn, wastes his fairly powerful throws.) A lot of his moves are pretty useless as well, and it's just too difficult of a match up against characters like sheik and marth.

 

[The Phenom]

Poor Ness ='(

I didn't know Ness was/is dominant in low-tournies!

 

[KHON™]

ness's baseball bat is ftw tho

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i think lucas is a bit better than ness

 

[Miggz]

Its because Ness doesn't have that many kill moves. I mean, I don't hate him or anything but that is just my guess...

 

[Dogysamich]

ness isnt really as "dominant in lowtiers" as people make him out to be, it's just that going off of the old-as-hell matchup chart that many tried to live by, and by some statistical list somebody made for lowtier matchups, ness came out on top by a landslide.

That stuff doesnt factor in theblaringly obvious like ness gets counters by Yoshi's Story by itself.

--

but why ness isnt good.

yeah, his recovery gets *****.

pk magnet doesnt REALLY stop lasers, what it does is set you up to get ***** when they approach, gaining a small bit of % back as they come in, or not using it (which is the better option)

DJC is double edged. Sure ness's aerials are good (they actually are), but spamming double jump is never a good idea. So the common answer people give is "so dont djc often". That means DJC isnt really that good.

*sidenote* Something that gets lost in translation is the concept of a good move. You dont use good moves sparingly unless they HAVE to be used sparingly because of how they work (i.e. jiggs rest, cause realistically alot of characters cant do heavy punishment to jiggs anyway).

anyway, more ness stuff.

Edgeguarding is not that hot. tailwhipping just pisses alot of characters off, that's about it.

Air speed is horrid. Period.

___

Even with all this, ness isnt really bad.

Another thing a lot of people dont tend to understand (read: fanboys) is that if a character is placed low, it doesnt specifically mean they're all-in-all "bad", it just means the characters above them are better.

Ness falls under that category. He's not specifically a bad character, but other characters can just do so much more.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

So i didn't realize how bad ness gets ***** on yoshis story until I played there recently. It is one of the saddest things about smash, when one of the shyguys edge guard me I feel so dejected and hopeless.

 

[Miggz]

So i didn't realize how bad ness gets ***** on yoshis story until I played there recently. It is one of the saddest things about smash, when one of the shyguys edge guard me I feel so dejected and hopeless.

Lol. Shyguys ftw.

 

[Games'n'Music]

Its the player themselves who supposed to make the character good. Sure Ness may have some downfalls, but you learn how to work around them. And it also depends on the fighting style you use. If you plan on using Ness like you would Falco then of course he's gonna suck.

 

[ExCeL 52]

i think lucas is a bit better than ness

I think this is the Melee forums

Say anything related to brawl, and people will cut your ballsack off here.

 

[Riku00]

i think lucas is a bit better than ness

We are talking about Melee here. And Ness Wrecks Lucas, i don't know who you've been playing.

 

[Miggz]

I think this is the Melee forums

Say anything related to brawl, and people will cut your ballsack off here.

Lol. Nice. =P

 

[Dogysamich]

macman knows exactly where he's at.

But yeah, ness "statistically dominates the low tiers by calculation", yet he's the only character in the game who literally gets by a stage alone (yes, moreso than ICs and moving stages)

not to mention it's a neutral stage, so there's a high chance you'll see it no matter how you look at it.

**edit**

everytime I see this threadhead, I just want to burst in here like "DO YOU REALIZE HOW BIG THIS N****'S HEAD IS?"

Is that wrong?

 

[thesage]

everytime I see this threadhead, I just want to burst in here like "DO YOU REALIZE HOW BIG THIS N****'S HEAD IS?"

Is that wrong?

No, not at all.

Ness is really hard to play as, so you're usually better off picking another character. He has good things, but the level at which you have to be in order to use them is like way up there. Like it's easier to main fox lol.

 

[Dogysamich]

that's the american standard for character selection.

I wouldnt go as far as to tell people not to main ness, but i'm not going to lie and say it's as easy as alot of other characters.

Cause yeah, ness has a steep *** learning curve.
​

 

[Miggz]

Pretty much. =P

 

[platiepoos]

everytime I see this threadhead, I just want to burst in here like "DO YOU REALIZE HOW BIG THIS N****'S HEAD IS?"

Is that wrong?

:o I was just saying I seem to do well against by friends, who are no means top players, I realize that. My aim for this thread was honing in on Ness' weaknesses so I could improve, not talk about how good I am. Sorry if I ticked you off.

Edit: So to summarize, Ness has poor range, can be punished easily, has horrible air speed, and has a gimpable recovery while not having many edgeguaring options to top it off. Is that accurate?

 

[Miggz]

:o I was just saying I seem to do well against by friends, who are no means top players, I realize that. My aim for this thread was honing in on Ness' weaknesses so I could improve, not talk about how good I am. Sorry if I ticked you off.

Edit: So to summarize, Ness has poor range, can be punished easily, has horrible air speed, and has a gimpable recovery while not having many edgeguaring options to top it off. Is that accurate?

Your summary sounds pretty accurate. But by all means, play Ness if you really want to. If anything you can use those flaws and use it as a motivation to be the best you can be. At least Ness has a cool taunt. ^^"

 

[thesage]

Ness has ok range and good edgeguarding options. People don't usually make it back unless I mess up...

 

[Metà]

He also has the sexiest glitch in the entire game.

YYG fo' life

 

[indie_dave]

DogySamich is mod!!
hey man i'm looking to move to GA sometime soon, hopefully
i heard Merc (Ryan) beat XIF!! gg

ontopic:
i'll read the whole topic and get back with my responses later, but nutshell stuff that's probably been said already...

• fatty startup on too many moves
• bad range/wind-down on fast moves
• easily gimpable recovery
• canNOT beat tourney sheik (which basically means he's screwed by default on tierlist)
• countered to all hell by highs+ (marf, spacies, cf, etc), and probably most mids
• NO ANSWER to crouch cancel and projectile spam, imo :< (somebody teach me how to powershield EVERYTHING plz)
• gets shutdown by fast aggression...ness has to slow the other chara down to be effective
• steep learning curve (PC Chris told me IRL that he thinks ness is the techiest character ingame...and he's good friends with MOFO)
• argue everything i posted but ness is too fun to NOT use regardless of many flaws...maybe this is ness's biggest weakness? :>

 

[Deleted member]

any char that moves fast and has a simple throw combo is a **** in a box to ness.

 

[indie_dave]

^mow is always right (rule #1).

re: yoshi's story discussion,
my favorite stage period (including as ness)
harder for campers to hit and run
easier for you to go crazy with speed.
i beat a WA marf on that stage with my ness, and he's part of Combo Status's circle (FDT crew)
<3 WA

i think the dL64 tree actually screws me over more than shyguys do :<
it's not too hard to avoid shyguys, just be extra careful around them
(pkt recovery ness does NOT like whispy willow or w/e that blowing tree is)

 

[thesage]

Yoshi's Story isn't that bad, I just can't think of another stage to ban as Ness except for like Mute City, but then I can just go Peach...

 

[Dogysamich]

how do you people play yoshi's story with ness?

Like, seriously. That stage can beat ness by itself. I've never seen 5 random NPCs do such a good job of removing a character's options in any game in my life. But then there's this situation. >.>

 

[Deleted member]

YS is my favorite stage for ness actually. nowhere to run from me. combos still work, or are helped by wavelanding. you can recover from anywhere with just 2nd jump to air dodge (his best recovery anyway IMO). backthrow kills people with good DI lower than expected.

for the same reasons, I hate DL64.

 

[Levitas]

You don't like DL64 because there's nowhere to run from you, combos still work or are helped by wavelanding, you can recover from anywhere w/ 2nd jump plus air dodge, and backthrow kills earlier?

 

[thesage]

You don't like DL64 because there's nowhere to run from you, combos still work or are helped by wavelanding, you can recover from anywhere w/ 2nd jump plus air dodge, and backthrow kills earlier?

I think he meant those things don't work on dl64.

 

[Levitas]

he said it.

 

[teeman92]

PK "get better" *runs*

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ness needs PSI Rockin and Lifeup. And Paralysis.

 

[Deleted member]

You don't like DL64 because there's nowhere to run from you, combos still work or are helped by wavelanding, you can recover from anywhere w/ 2nd jump plus air dodge, and backthrow kills earlier?

/sigh

only ness players do this crap, yet another reason why I don't talk to any despite knowing the character so well.

*returns back to divinity of pro status fox*

 

[Miggz]

PK "get better" *runs*

LOL! Nice one.

 

[thesage]

/sigh

only ness players do this crap, yet another reason why I don't talk to any despite knowing the character so well.

*returns back to divinity of pro status fox*

Wait... You talk to me... =(

Oh I double main Ness/Peach...

 

[Miggz]

Wait... You talk to me... =(

Oh I double main Ness/Peach...

Ness/Peach?

That's different

I don't recall every hearing that pair of characters before.

I'm sure its nowhere near as common as Marth/Fox mains. lol

 

[indie_dave]

i play ness and peach

but more fox than either lol

man i really hope MIKE G vids go up after the tristate tourney this weekend :V :V :V

 

[jugfingers]

ness isn't bad, anyone who says otherwise is a stark raving liar.

 

[Skrlx]

ness *****.. in ssb64 that is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidpxgzP6fc

alot of things can be done in ssbm like djcing A attacks really close to the ground