Why is everyone so opposed to having Smash Balls in competitive play?

[Ban3]

hey you know, like buy now with all this frying, that he might just get the point that the idea was....not that brilliant lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

He was saying that Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat is an idiot, not that casual players in general are idiots. Most reasonable people would understand why we don't want smashballs in our tournaments after reading just about any of the arguments in this thread. They may prefer to play with smashballs, but at least they'd understand where we're coming from.

He's saying that anyone who's not able to see something from the other side's point of view has no reason to be debating, and certainly should not have influence on how they run things on that side. Now, if Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat actually planned on going to tournaments, and made a compelling arguement that including smashballs (or items in general) would drastically improve turnout, as well as enhance the metagame, then we'd be much more willing to listen than when he said "I think it would make more entertaining games."

Yuna has a tendency to be a little harsh, but primarily when the opponent starts posting illogical arguements, or ones that have been refuted. Yuna stops being civil when the opponent starts acting stupid (a lot of people do that actually, including myself). Generally we calm down if the opponent starts responding with logical arguements again (or agrees with us. Whichever comes first).

 

[Yuna]

So anyone who does not wish to play a game at a competitive level is an idiot? That is a pretty stupid thing to say.

Hey! You have different tastes than I! Therefore, you must be inferior to me in mental capacity....

Pretty stupid logic there.

I said that while almost all of us (not me myself) all started out as casual Smashers at one point, not all of us started out as idiots.

"By the way, I am a man." - Haku of the Snow
(Despite the fact that I look like a girl and has been mistaken for one on sight)

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wait a minute, isn't Yuna a guy?

Sorry about that, I just used the pronoun that the previous poster used.

My bad.

 

[Anklez15]

For example if u are up 2 stock and vrsing a wolf he get smashball kills u with the ship then when u come back he uses the ship and raises u all the way to the top till u die. Smashballs are gay for competitive play.

 

[blakinola]

I hate what SmashBoards has become.

 

[Sariku]

Snake. Space animals.

 

[virtuososteve]

stupid noobs...smash balls in competitive play, pfffttt

 

[dj_pwn1423]

I hate brawl because it brought the noob flood and makes smashboards crash =(

other than that its meh.

 

[Justpeachey1029]

Ok, OP. (sorry, I didn't take time to take your name down and I'm too lazy to scroll up.)



How would you feel if you entered a tournament?

You're doin' pretty well. You advance a couple matches. (As you suggest, we'll have Smash Balls on random.)


You get to the final match of the tournament. During the match, all of the smash balls spawn in the vicinity of your opponent. Any time you are far away. How is that fair for you? You would honestly agree to joining a contest where the opponent will have access to something that you never have access to?

Honestly, I don't think this is a valid argument. The Smash Ball appears at random. It could be closer to your opponent, it could be closer to you, and it could be right in between you, you never know. I think that most people that complain about smash balls are not very good about getting them, and therefore have a grudge against them. As to randomness being bad in Brawl, without randomness, the game would get boring really, really fast. If the same thing happened ever time, ever match, then we would stop playing. The reason we all keep playing is because it keeps changing. It's always new, it's always different. There are so many ways to play, it never gets boring.

 

[Justpeachey1029]

For example if u are up 2 stock and vrsing a wolf he get smashball kills u with the ship then when u come back he uses the ship and raises u all the way to the top till u die. Smashballs are gay for competitive play.

At the same time, you could be the one to get the ball as bowser, KO him, then bring him up really high to ko him when he comes back. You can't win every time.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

justpeachey Im sorry but you dont know what you are talking about.
also did you just ignore every other post in this thread?

we banned items and stages in melee so the randomness would be minimal, 7 years later people are still playing.

we are talking about tournaments here not about how people should play the game in the comfort of their own home.

 

[thesage]

Originally Posted by Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat :
It's true that I'm new, and it's true that I play Brawl for fun and not to win tournaments. But all competitive players were casuals at one point, right?

Wait, if u don't play in tournaments why do u care about the tournament settings? It's not like tournaments dictate how u play at home.

 

[M@v]

This topic isnt about casual play...its about competition. Sure whenever I do a basic brawl, I ususally use smash balls, since im just messing around. But whenever I 1v1, All items OFF. As stated, competition is about making things as even as possible, smash balls definately dont do that. Where they show up, when they show is is completely random, and could change the tide of a battle. A lot of people have serious issues with tripping too. I'm not EXTEMELY mad about it...but more than once its screwed up my combos and edgeguarding. Also, some final smashes are WAY stronger than others as mentioned. And if someone has a movable final smash(ex. pikachu, sonic.) They are pretty much guaranteed a kill.

FS for fun=
for competition=

 

[Wolfang]

This is a weird thread question, it's like asking why people are opposed to major league players using steroids. I mean, I K.O'd someone three times with the same Landmaster tank, and I got zero satisfaction out of it. People don't like it in competitive play because they don't like large sums of money to rely on luck, duh.

 

[WuTangDude]

Because the Smash Ball, when it pops up, and how it moves around is totally random.

Not to mention it becomes the center of the match. The fighting doesn't matter, only the smash ball does.

And characters with the best Final smashes would automatically nab the best tier spots. Bowser, Sonic, Pikachu, the space furries, et. all nab high tier while Zero Suit Samus and Donkey Kong, etc. are left cold.

Much too unbalanced and overpowered for comptetive gameplay.

 

[Master Peach]

Excuse me while I p0wn you.


Said random attacks do not randomly come out without the opponent being able to stop you. If they simply keep the pressure up, you won't be able to pull them out. No one can stop an FS from spawning if it's turned on.

Also, you can dodge said random-based attacks, they only hit once and are over fast. And they are also not broken (I'll go more into that later)... the randomness does in no way unbalance the game so that people have to play as the "random" characters to win.

The most important part is: What else are we going to do, ban the characters?

If a stage is too random, we ban it. Short of banning characters, there's nothing we can do with random moves. But again, they're just minor. The effects of the random moves are not that large. Why was Game & Watch still so low on the Tier List despite having a killer random attack? Because it just wasn't that good.


Some characters' Final Smashes are just so good if we allow them, tournament play would literaly devolve into only 3 or so characters being played in tournaments (or at least standing even a remote chance at winning).

I'll use Marth's FS as an example. I does 70% of damage (70% of damage) and then finishes with a super-strong move with a huge knockback. That means that on any given stage that's not banned because of size, you'll die at 0%! Not bad enough? It's also got everything else that Final Smashes have (specified later) and you can combo into it from at least 5 different moves!

And don't give me the bull crap of him dying if he's in the air. No Marth worth his salt should use it in the air when there's a risk of it whiffing.


We can't, move on.


The game would revolve around Final Smashes. People would pick characters with the best Final Smashes and once they spawned, it would be all about who gets it. Tournaments would literally be decided by Final Smashes alone most of the time.

There are many other possible (and stupid) scenarios as well. You and me are fighting. I knock you off stage. A Final Smashes appears right above me and I have enough time to get it before you even make it back on stage.


The best way to assure that your opponent doesn't get it so to actually go and get it. Samus players would be screwed. What if they just don't want to learn ZSS? Too bad, they have to since they'll need to grap that Smash Ball and use it to prevent their opponent from using it.


So you're basically advocating camping and Smash Ball camping, having games and tournaments decided primarily by FS:es? Good show.


One actually is; Ice Climbers'. Unless you have frame-perfect timing and are camping the edge (at which point you're susceptible to the IC's edgeguarding you), you're going to take damage from it. Some FS:es also damage you even if you don't get hit by the opponent (Peach, Meta-Knight).

Also, some of them, some of which kill at 0% can be comboed into (Marth, Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, among others).


It's painfully obvious you haven't researched how FS:es work in the least.

This is how FS:es work. For every single character in the game, from the frame you Hit B and 'til at least once the FS:es hitbox has disappeared, you're complete invincible (save for Pit, who is only invincible while activating his FS, which is actually worse than if he were to just stand around while Palutena's Army attacks since now you'll have to dodge the army and Pit). Wario and Sonic are prime examples of this. They can lunge at you quite a long period of time and all you can do is do your best to avoid them!

Final Smashes are also unblockable (except for a handful, but they just break your shield really fast).

This means that once your opponent has an FS, approaching him is out of the question! If you try to hit him, he can just B and kick your *** into infinity! Some people have huge hitboxes on their FS:es like Ike's. If you go anywhere near him, he can just B you. Zero Suit Samus' sucks you in (but the hit isn't very strong). Even if you throw out a move before he hits B, your move might not activate in time to hit him before his FS activates and even if you hit him, it might not even knock the FS out of him, giving him another shot in the air (since this game has next to zero hitstun) while you're still lagging from your attack!

Heck, even if you manage to get an attack out, they can just shield it and then drop their shield and B you in the face since there's no shieldstun in this game!

For a good number of FS:es, you literally can't go anywhere near your opponent past a certain damage percentages without a serious risk of losing a stock.

And while you can't approach your opponent safely, they can still approach you. So the opponent just crippled you! He can still rush you down and try to beat you to death but if you leave even the smallest opening, he can kill you (most of the time)! That is if he can't just combo you into it!

Then there's the part where if they manage to knock you off the stage, you'll have to recover onto the ledge. While on the ledge, you'll be susceptible to edgeguarding. If you make it back, chances are, you'll be at a huge disadvantage. They can either grab you, jab you, poke you or FS you. What are you going to do? You're going to eat it! If they Smash or poke you hard enough, you'll drop down back to the edge and be forced to try to make it back onto the stage unharmed. If they time their FS, you won't be able to sidestep or spotdodge it if you got up by rolling, simply getting up or attacking. If you mistime a spotdodge or a roll, they can FS you.

The FS is the ultimate camping tool. Ahead in stocks? Just camp with it and wait for your opponent to dare to approach you and screw up and wham, they're dead. Heck, since this game's got buffed rolls and spotdodges, you can even spotdodge and roll attacks into Final Smashes!

Competitive gameplay would devolve into nothingness. The game already promotes camping. Competitive Brawl is already largely about camping. With FS:es involved, camping would be all competitive Brawl consisted of! And then whoever grabs the most FS:es will win!

We'll see less characters being used (much, much, much less). Pikmin & Olimar are Top Tier-material normally. But with FS:es turned on, he pales in comparison with Marth and Toon Link. Hence, he's out of the question.

Marth and Toon Link are Top Tier even without FS:es. With FS:es, they're beasts. Tournament play would devolve into people whoring Marth, Toon Link and a small handful of other characters. Those who play as other characters wouldn't stand even a remote chance of making Top15!

Even on the lowest setting, FS:es also spawn way too often!

What kind of games would this spawn? I'll tell you what kind of games:
Games where people camp back and forth and then one side grabs a Smash Ball. He'll either start camping or the opponent will start camping in order to somehow open up the opponent enough to try to knock the Smash Ball out of them. The one without the Smash Ball would be at a severe disadvantage as any player worth their salt won't easily let the opponent knock the Smash Ball out of them.

Camping on both sides. If the one without the Smash Ball is lucky, he'll knock it out of his opponent. If he's not, he'll lose a stock. Then the opponent gets another Smash Ball. And the game has pretty much been lost.

No, FS:es cannot and will not be allowed in tournaments. If you analyse how they work (which you and many others in this thread and others obviously haven't), you'll see why!

I'm going with Yuna on this one. Before I thought Smash balls would be fine... until I Got pwned by Supa Sonic (Misspelling intended)

Have you ever played a match against a Fox or sonic or Lucas with Smash balls on. Trust me not fun and completely gay!!

 

[DTKPch]

Pretty much everything Yuna said, and a bit more:

Look to Yuna's post for how too many smashballs turns the focus of the game solely onto smash balls.
Lower the item setting then? Fine, then those 1 or 2 smash balls will be more game changing. Pick your poison. Either focus too much on all of those smash balls, or have one or two smash balls that pretty much decide the game.

For the argument about randomness:
We say: the smashball can spawn right next to your opponent, which isn't fair.
You say: well, the smashball can spawn randomly anywhere, next to your opponent, next to you, or in between.
Oh yeah? Well then for that specific game, whoever the smash ball spawned by will have the advantage! It doesn't matter if it all balances out in the end! It's like this: go flip a coin. If it's heads, I win, if it's tails, you win. Lets say on the first flip, you win. Maybe after 100 flips of that coin it'll balance out to 50-50, but the fact is for that one round, you won by luck, and it's very evident.

Oh, and I don't know if you've seen it yet, but there's a video up on youtube of a falco playing a yoshi. The yoshi actually seems better, and it's doing more damage and they're tied, stock-wise. Then the falco happens to get the smashball (both people hit it almost at the same time) and proceeds to kill the Yoshi twice in 5 seconds... The yoshi (being a better player in that match) attempts to make a comeback, but a two-stock lead is tough to overcome, no matter how good you are.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Granted, I haven't read through the rest of the thread (it's way too late for that much reading here), but I have to wonder how much work has really been done with Smash Balls in competitive play. I've done testing (scientifically based, btw; testing should be all about the numbers, not 'well, that looks broken') into FS's in 2v2, and it looks really promising, especially thanks to team attack. I try to lurk the tactical and tourney disc. boards, and I always see thread with arguments about the subject... but I never see anyone really trying to see if they'd work (it's all hearsay and anecdotal evidence). So, while I agree with a lot of what people like Yuna say about Smash Balls... I just can't help but think that we are just so biased due to out ~7 years of Melee that we aren't really giving them the chance they deserve.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Granted, I haven't read through the rest of the thread (it's way too late for that much reading here), but I have to wonder how much work has really been done with Smash Balls in competitive play. I've done testing (scientifically based, btw; testing should be all about the numbers, not 'well, that looks broken') into FS's in 2v2, and it looks really promising, especially thanks to team attack. I try to lurk the tactical and tourney disc. boards, and I always see thread with arguments about the subject... but I never see anyone really trying to see if they'd work (it's all hearsay and anecdotal evidence). So, while I agree with a lot of what people like Yuna say about Smash Balls... I just can't help but think that we are just so biased due to out ~7 years of Melee that we aren't really giving them the chance they deserve.

I dont want to host a tournament with smashballs just to see what happens...
if you host a tourney and theres time left you can do a doubles tourney with SBs on,.thats how people ususally try the wacky stuff

 

[Bocom]

I am hosting a small tournament today for Brawl.

Items won't be on. Final Smashes won't lead to unpleasant things during it.

 

[Yuna]

Granted, I haven't read through the rest of the thread (it's way too late for that much reading here), but I have to wonder how much work has really been done with Smash Balls in competitive play. I've done testing (scientifically based, btw; testing should be all about the numbers, not 'well, that looks broken') into FS's in 2v2, and it looks really promising, especially thanks to team attack. I try to lurk the tactical and tourney disc. boards, and I always see thread with arguments about the subject... but I never see anyone really trying to see if they'd work (it's all hearsay and anecdotal evidence). So, while I agree with a lot of what people like Yuna say about Smash Balls... I just can't help but think that we are just so biased due to out ~7 years of Melee that we aren't really giving them the chance they deserve.

Smash Balls in Team Attack can be just as broken. And gameplay will still devolve into people choosing the characters with the best Smash Balls. People will still camp for Smash Balls, which will still spawn way too often.

You can even team combo into Smash Balls. Fthrow into Marth's FS? Sure! People can abuse Super Armor attacks to stun opponent while their teammates FS.

Just because certain FS:es carry a greater risk in Teams doesn't mean Toon Link's, Link's, Zelda's, Sheik's and Marth's won't be just as broken. You just need more skill with them now so you won't inadvertedly hit your teammate as well.

And, yes, gameplay will devolve into people whoring Top Tier FS:es. That or they'll lose. Excuse me while I and Armada destroy you all as Double Marths.

So basically, if you plan on keeping the skill level low for Teams with FS:es on, by all means, try it out. If you plan on not restricting it to a certain skill level, then it will devolve into what I just said. At least when it comes to the very best.

 

[Jack Kieser]

See, I'm not disagreeing with you... but that is all conjecture. The fact of the matter is that we don't, 100% for certain, know if you're right or not. We can guess. But we've never tried anything like this before (no, early item tournaments don't count; Smash Balls are a completely different beast). I can't, as a logician and a scientist, accept conjecture and anecdotes as concrete evidence to be used to make a decision. The sad thing is that I know that even though I'm doing my part to at least try to help, I can't make anyone else do the logical thing and hold tournaments to test this stuff out, and, to be frank, change never comes from the actions of one person, no matter how persistent or passionate; you have to have a group to do anything. So... I kind of have to resolve myself to the fact that, because everyone here is so biased (regardless of whether or not its justified or not), nothing will ever progress (at least in this particular instance).

 

[itsameSMB]

See, I'm not disagreeing with you... but that is all conjecture. The fact of the matter is that we don't, 100% for certain, know if you're right or not. We can guess. But we've never tried anything like this before (no, early item tournaments don't count; Smash Balls are a completely different beast). I can't, as a logician and a scientist, accept conjecture and anecdotes as concrete evidence to be used to make a decision. The sad thing is that I know that even though I'm doing my part to at least try to help, I can't make anyone else do the logical thing and hold tournaments to test this stuff out, and, to be frank, change never comes from the actions of one person, no matter how persistent or passionate; you have to have a group to do anything. So... I kind of have to resolve myself to the fact that, because everyone here is so biased (regardless of whether or not its justified or not), nothing will ever progress (at least in this particular instance).

I now that thos doesn;t contribute anyrhing to the conversation (and I'm sorry for that), but I couldn't agree more.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

It turns into a "Who can get the smashball" contest instead of 1 V 1 fight...

...

It requires completely different skills than normal

 

[itsameSMB]

It turns into a "Who can get the smashball" contest instead of 1 V 1 fight...

...

It requires completely different skills than normal

...But it does require skill nonetheless, right? (Oh God, now I've gone and done it)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

...But it does require skill nonetheless, right? (Oh God, now I've gone and done it)

A different KIND of skill...

It would have completely different tiers and everything...

It's not the type of competition most competitive players want to do

Why don't people construct their own Smash ball tournaments and create their own tiers and everything?

 

[Yuna]

See, I'm not disagreeing with you... but that is all conjecture. The fact of the matter is that we don't, 100% for certain, know if you're right or not. We can guess. But we've never tried anything like this before (no, early item tournaments don't count; Smash Balls are a completely different beast). I can't, as a logician and a scientist, accept conjecture and anecdotes as concrete evidence to be used to make a decision. The sad thing is that I know that even though I'm doing my part to at least try to help, I can't make anyone else do the logical thing and hold tournaments to test this stuff out, and, to be frank, change never comes from the actions of one person, no matter how persistent or passionate; you have to have a group to do anything. So... I kind of have to resolve myself to the fact that, because everyone here is so biased (regardless of whether or not its justified or not), nothing will ever progress (at least in this particular instance).

We can almost certainly know because we know how Final Smashes work.

We also know how people and competitive fighting work. When there's money at stake, people will do everything that's not banned to win. And at the highest level of play, playing to win and all that, competitive teams with Final Smashes will devolve into what I just told you!

The people who choose not to do it that way will undoubtedly lose if the people who do it "my" way are any good. You don't have to physic to foresee what will happen if FS are left on. I've been playing fighting games competitively for years. I know how to works. I know how FS:es work. I know how Smash works. I.e., I can predict with 99% certainty what will happen.

Trust me on this, please.

 

[Jack Kieser]

A different KIND of skill...

It would have completely different tiers and everything...

It's not the type of competition most competitive players want to do

Why don't people construct their own Smash ball tournaments and create their own tiers and everything?

Because most times they are shot down by, oh, the majority of the respected community for even considering trying such a bold (and obviously doomed) prospect. Not many people can maintain the drive to do something when they are constantly told that not only are they destined to fail miserably, but also when the majority of the people they are trying to do it for (their fellow players) are constantly reminding them that they are against them every step of the way.

EDIT @ Yuna: Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I agree with a lot of what you say... but I'm not willing to apply logic (well, sort of) like that to this (or any) situation. Maybe I'd be more willing to be inactive on this if A ) Brawl wasn't designed from the ground up to be as different from Melee as it could while still being Smash and B ) if there wasn't such a sudden influx of less competitively-experienced players wanting to join in. Times (and the community) are changing, and I just don't think that conjecture (even well rooted conjecture) is a good enough reason to just not try something different. Really, what have we lost if we devote time to trying to make Smash Balls (or anything else: Heavy Brawl, fast Brawl, anything) competitively viable? A month? Two? You can't possibly say that's not worth it to try something different.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Because most times they are shot down by, oh, the majority of the respected community for even considering trying such a bold (and obviously doomed) prospect. Not many people can maintain the drive to do something when they are constantly told that not only are they destined to fail miserably, but also when the majority of the people they are trying to do it for (their fellow players) are constantly reminding them that they are against them every step of the way.

Well they should stop caring what some random nobody says than...

 

[itsameSMB]

^
Much easier said than done.

(Wow, that was a shallow post...)

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well they should stop caring what some random nobody says than...

That's the thing. It's not always just random nobodies. Sometimes (actually, a lot of the time) its really well respected people who are saying this. Maybe they are more respectful than I implied in my post, but the fact remains that an outstanding majority of respected members of the community (comparatively speaking) don't even support the concept of trying.

 

[Bocom]

...But it does require skill nonetheless, right? (Oh God, now I've gone and done it)

Not competitive skill. Stop coming with useless arguments.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

That's the thing. It's not always just random nobodies. Sometimes (actually, a lot of the time) its really well respected people who are saying this. Maybe they are more respectful than I implied in my post, but the fact remains that an outstanding majority of respected members of the community (comparatively speaking) don't even support the concept of trying.

...I would continue and talk about how it doesn't really matter if they support it as long as they don't outright fight against it...than they wouldn't really be worthy of any kind of respect

But quite frankly, I wouldn't participate in this hypothetical type of tournament anyway...

 

[westtk40]

Smash balls would give weaker players a much better chance at winning matches they would have no chance in otherwise... who wants that? (aside from the weaker players but their opinion doesn't count)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Smash balls would give weaker players a much better chance at winning matches they would have no chance in otherwise... who wants that? (aside from the weaker players but their opinion doesn't count)

If the opponent was better, they would be able to get the smash ball first anyway, wouldn't you think?

Unless they aren't as good as they think

 

[h1roshi]

cuz they don't belong there.

-hiro

 

[Jack Kieser]

cuz they don't belong there.

-hiro

Case in point.

 

[Yuna]

If the opponent was better, they would be able to get the smash ball first anyway, wouldn't you think?

Unless they aren't as good as they think

All I'm going to say is:
PsychoIncarnate
Smash Master



Join Date: Jul 2007
Brawl FC: 1203-9314-6835
Location: Hell
Posts: 8,878

 

[Spellman]

Ice Climbers have a really easy time collecting the Smash Ball compared to some of the other characters thanks to being able to hit it twice. I get the Smash Ball in any particular match, whether it's 4 player free for all or 1 on 1, like 85% of the time. The consequence for that is that I get a Final Smash that kind of blows compared to the others especially on certain stages. This is an example of a balancing factor. It's not completely unreasonable to choose the Ice Climbers if your only reason is to keep someone else from getting the Smash Ball. Whilest playing as Sonic, with the lack of range and awkward third jump, it's easy to miss out on the opportunity of having one of the best Final Smashes in the game. That is why, after playing a lot of the Ice Climbers, I've become less afraid of fighting Sonic in closed quarter areas. Admittedly though, he does kind of dominate the Smash Ball in large levels like The Bridge of Eldin, but even then, I'm not completely down and out because once again, gotta refer to his sloppy jumps and weak air game.

Like I say, this is only an example of how weak Final Smash characters are viable when playing matches with Smash Balls on.