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Why I'm not an Atheist

GwJ

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There you go again with the whole "claim" thing. Atheists aren't making a claim. I need JUSTIFICATION to reject the claims of theists, but I don't need EVIDENCE.

And the JUSTIFICATION is that theists haven't proven a god is necessary. Because of that, I have no reason to believe in god. There is absolutely nothing illogical about that.
 

john!

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oh i see. wasn't sure how you were using those terms.

so why are you evaluating a claim to be false when you have no information about the truth of the claim? would you say that the claim "intelligent life exists on another planet" is false because we have no information about the truth of that claim?
 

GwJ

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I never said it was false. I said it is not proven. And since it is not proven, I not believe it until it is.

would you say that the claim "intelligent life exists on another planet" is false because we have no information about the truth of that claim?
When people ask me if I think intelligent life exists on other planets, I tell them "I don't know. But if they do, they sure as hell haven't visited us."

By that, I mean that it is not proven that they exist, so I act as if they don't until I know they do.
 

john!

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you act as if all claims are false until they are proven to be true? that's a very poor way of viewing things.

at what point is something "proven"? how much evidence do you need?

for instance, if i make the claim that i am human, would you think that's true? what evidence do you have? how sure are you?

your worldview is so binary. you say "false" until you deem there to be enough evidence, then you switch directly to "true". why not start in the middle and look for evidence for either side?
 

kataklysm336

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your worldview is so binary. you say "false" until you deem there to be enough evidence, then you switch directly to "true". why not start in the middle and look for evidence for either side?
Does an agnostic believe in God?
 

GwJ

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you act as if all claims are false until they are proven to be true? that's a very poor way of viewing things.

at what point is something "proven"? how much evidence do you need?

for instance, if i make the claim that i am human, would you think that's true? what evidence do you have? how sure are you?

your worldview is so binary. you say "false" until you deem there to be enough evidence, then you switch directly to "true". why not start in the middle and look for evidence for either side?
Did you read anything I wrote?

The question of existence is ALWAYS binary. However, if the evidence is not there to prove that it exists, we must not believe it until it is proven.
 

Holder of the Heel

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Oh for the love of... NO ONE IS SAYING ONE DOESN'T HAVE A BOP! Atheists don't have an answer! They are still working on it. Ironically, they can still explain what they have more than a theist who claims to actually HAVE one.

And you didn't even explain why one is less inductive, and you did not show how both are illogical, you did not explain why one was more logical or less logical than then the other. Also, saying that none of them are certain does NOT equal it being illogical to believe. Just because we can't ****cking prove Abraham was assassinated right in this thread with 100% certainty (even if we all went out questioning and looking at documents) that does NOT mean it is absurd to believe it happened. It is actually LOGICAL to do so because the probability that it happened as opposed to being some hoax or massive conspiracy is so freaking low and unnecessary in comparison that you'd be illogical to believe OTHERWISE.

You have failed to do anything. I am officially retiring from this.
 

john!

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Did you read anything I wrote?

The question of existence is ALWAYS binary. However, if the evidence is not there to prove that it exists, we must not believe it until it is proven.
i wonder if you even realize that, not only is this statement wrong, but you also have given me literally zero reason to believe that it is true.

unlike you, i don't believe things on faith alone, so you need to give me a reason to accept your statement here.

Oh for the love of... NO ONE IS SAYING ONE DOESN'T HAVE A BOP!
yes they are. atheists believe that they don't have a burden of proof. you're going to refute that? because i've heard it from almost every one i talk to.

are there any atheists here who think that their atheist views have a burden of proof?

And you didn't even explain why one is less inductive, and you did not show how both are illogical, you did not explain why one was more logical or less logical than then the other.
i think atheism and theism are roughly equally logical. they are also equally illogical.

it's like saying two candles are equally bright, or equally dim. it's the same thing.

Also, saying that none of them are certain does NOT equal it being illogical to believe. Just because we can't ****cking prove Abraham was assassinated right in this thread with 100% certainty (even if we all went out questioning and looking at documents) that does NOT mean it is absurd to believe it happened. It is actually LOGICAL to do so because the probability that it happened as opposed to being some hoax or massive conspiracy is so freaking low and unnecessary in comparison that you'd be illogical to believe OTHERWISE.
that's because you have evidence that he was assassinated. all i ask of atheists (or anyone else) is evidence.

This thread hurts my brain. So does John.
John, please never apply to the debate hall.
Thanks.
lol, my thoughts hurt your brain? is this the typical reaction when a closed-minded person is shown reasoning that contradicts their worldview?
 

GwJ

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i think atheism and theism are roughly equally logical. they are also equally illogical.

it's like saying two candles are equally bright, or equally dim. it's the same thing.
And yet you can't back it up.

that's because you have evidence that he was assassinated. all i ask of atheists (or anyone else) is evidence.
Evidence of what?

lol, my thoughts hurt your brain? is this the typical reaction when a closed-minded person is shown reasoning that contradicts their worldview?
Lol
 

Chuee

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lol, my thoughts hurt your brain? is this the typical reaction when a closed-minded person is shown reasoning that contradicts their worldview?
No, because you're trying to tell atheists what they believe, then when we say no that's not quite what we believe, you say that we're wrong.
Sorry, I can tell myself what I believe regarding God. So stop trying to tell me what I believe, it certainly isn't what you say I do.
 

john!

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i do that because almost every atheist i talk to believes that they don't believe anything.

if you can see the irony in that statement, then you know why atheists make me laugh.
 

Sucumbio

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Alright, I'll bite, john! ... but ... ugh. There's problems with your approach, your framework, which is going to make this difficult. I'll do what I can, but I cannot promise you'll agree with my criticisms of your statements, so just to forewarn, I'm not trolling you or anything. ^_^;

to say that "i have no reason to believe in god" is to make a judgment about the evidence currently available for and against the god proposition. since the judgment is not certain, the act of making the judgment requires a certain amount of faith, inversely proportional to the amount of evidence that supports your judgment.
For this we'll assume the most ideal situation. We'll assume that the person making this judgement - the one who holds this opinion - is fully aware of all the science up to date regarding the origins of man and the universe. They are also fully aware of all the various religious interpretations of said origins. They're google, basically, they know it all (all that can possibly be known). What they are NOT doing (yet) is assuming anything to be true. They simply are aware of all the possible stances that have come to people's minds and been recorded as such. Based on this, they will make a decision. Either it is more likely or less likely that God exists.

For this person, what happens next is categorization. Of all the information compiled, everything will fit into one of two categories: 1.) Provable (science) 2.) Unprovable (superstition/theory/opinions).

To decide whether or not God exists, one would have to decide what is important. It's true that either category would be huge. In fact, it's arguable which one would have more than the other. This is the key.

It's not important which is larger.

To the Atheist, category 1 is all that really matters. Category 2 could well be much larger - but so long as "God exists" is not -scientifically- provable, it doesn't matter. I'll say it again... all that matters, is what is scientifically provable.

Now this is where things get difficult. You have made it clear that you feel as if this stance is in itself, a belief. An opinion. I would like to challenge this by citing an example[a]:

[a] 1+1=2

This example is not stating an opinion. If we can agree on this, then we're getting somewhere.

Taking that example, the scientific category, category 1 from above, ONLY contains information similar to the example[a] given.

The opinion on whether or not God exists comes in when a person decides which Category is more important.

For the atheist, Category 1 is more important. For the Theist, Category 2 is more important. For the agnostic, neither Category is enough to decide.

I realize that this whole diatribe could be easily summarized by any number of nifty graphics found on the webs. But I felt it necessary to spell it out in this particular way, because I feel as if it will help untangle thoughts, and provide a better framework with which this debate could actually proceed.
 

john!

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nice post, sucumbio. but my position is that the god question is a scientific question. i think the scope of science is large enough that someday we will be able to determine what lies outside our universe (if anything) and if there is any sort of consciousness responsible for our universe.

so i would put the god question in category 1. in fact, i'm not sure i would put anything in category 2.

i simply don't think i am in a position to say that the god question is unprovable.

then the ones you talk to are idiots
in a sense. i believe that it's smarter to be aware that you don't know something than to be unaware that you don't know something.
 

Sucumbio

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nice post, sucumbio. but my position is that the god question is a scientific question.
Well then as of Today, March 7, 5:03PM CST, the answer is no, there is no God. Science has yet to prove he exists.

i think the scope of science is large enough that someday we will be able to determine what lies outside our universe (if anything) and if there is any sort of consciousness responsible for our universe.

so i would put the god question in category 1. in fact, i'm not sure i would put anything in category 2.
I agree science will someday answer questions that it currently cannot. This doesn't count, though, as a proper basis for putting the God question in the category of science (category 1). By definition of our agreed upon framework, category 2 is reserved for theories, opinions, and superstitions. When things become provable, they migrate from Category 2 to Category 1. So, when God's existence is as 1+1=2, it can be put into the scientific category.

Just to clarify, even scientific theories are not proven (hence why they're theories) so they too are considered Category 2. They also cannot be used as a basis for not believing (if you're an Atheist) in God. This includes the Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution, etc etc etc.

i simply don't think i am in a position to say that the god question is unprovable.
Well, no one is asking you too, lol. One day we may have scientific proof of his existence. But what people do in the meantime is take a leap faith in the absence of such proof, if they believe in God.
 

Dre89

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I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet.

Anyone wanna make a bet with me as to who can guess how many more people come in and say 'religion debates are pointless etc.'? I will also bet that none of them have educated themselves in the topic either.

Science won't answer the question absolutely of whether God exists or not, it will just strengthen arguments for or against God, unless we get scientific evidence of him doing a miracle or something like that.

John- The BoP goes to the person who makes the first claim.

So if an atheist goes up to a theist and says 'there is no reason to believe in God' then he has made the first claim and thus has the BoP.

Now of course this means the BoP shifts from conversation to conversation. But if you think of theism and atheism as two entities in conversation, then theism is the one with the BoP because theism makes the positive claim.

A clearer example of the principle in practice is the question of unicorns. If I go up to a person and say 'there is no reason to believe in unicorns' then I have made the first claim and thus have the BoP. However, in the general debate of unicorns vs no unicorns, the BoP is clearly on those who believe in unicorns.
 

Holder of the Heel

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He.... he... there is something wrong with him. @_@ What is wrong with him?

Just stop everyone, he wants to believe in a God like I pointed out before. Mura and him are like this, but John has to be the best at it though, by far.
 

john!

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He.... he... there is something wrong with him. @_@ What is wrong with him?

Just stop everyone, he wants to believe in a God like I pointed out before. Muro and him are like this, but John has to be the best at it though, by far.
i don't know how many times i have to say that i'm an agnostic before you people will catch on. do you have short-term memory loss?

John- The BoP goes to the person who makes the first claim.

So if an atheist goes up to a theist and says 'there is no reason to believe in God' then he has made the first claim and thus has the BoP.

Now of course this means the BoP shifts from conversation to conversation. But if you think of theism and atheism as two entities in conversation, then theism is the one with the BoP because theism makes the positive claim.

A clearer example of the principle in practice is the question of unicorns. If I go up to a person and say 'there is no reason to believe in unicorns' then I have made the first claim and thus have the BoP. However, in the general debate of unicorns vs no unicorns, the BoP is clearly on those who believe in unicorns.
i'm not sure i buy this. why does it matter who talks first? what if two people formulate opposite claims in their minds independently? which one has the burden of proof if they talk at the same time?
 

Teran

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MuraRengan

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He.... he... there is something wrong with him. @_@ What is wrong with him?

Just stop everyone, he wants to believe in a God like I pointed out before. Muro and him are like this, but John has to be the best at it though, by far.
You're a really stubborn person, it's like you stopped listening a long time ago. I pointed out multiple times that my intent wasn't to assert a proof of God. I've said multiple times that the arguments I've given go only to show where how there's no good enough foundation for atheism, and I never once claimed that anything I said was a proof of God's existence. All of this has very little to do with why I believe in God, in fact, there's much that I withheld because I felt it was irrelevant to the conversation.

At some point, john!, Dre, and I have all gotten at the same point: That atheism is not completely logical (or rational). Hell, that was the point of the entire topic, not proving God.

At any rate, as much as I "want to believe in God," your obnoxious ignorance (or incomprehension) of all the good points brought about by your opposition shows that, even more, you just "want to be an atheist." That is, you aren't really concerned with the truth, you just want to believe what's convenient to you. You stopped accurately responding to arguments pages ago, and I know it's not a problem with the arguments themselves, because people like Chuee and GwJumpman were more than able to respond ot the arguments themselves, whether it was me, Dre. or john! You're the only one here who's not on the same page.

As for me, I currently don't have the time for this thread. I'll return later, but right now life is more important.
 

Holder of the Heel

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That matters very little as to what is being said John. ._. I suppose you is a troll I guess. There's no way someone can do this without doing it on purpose.

As for Mura... I don't really know what you're talking about. You're kind of just saying things. That doesn't bode well if you're trying to assert something and be taken seriously. I don't see how I am the only one not on the same page. It is as if you just wanted to say that because you are bitter, which is seemingly the case because of how salty you seem in your post. D:

As for how the thread has been going, you must not have read your own blog (not too surprising, considering how long and dull it has been), but it hasn't been decided atheism isn't logical.. no one has said that. Except John!, which everyone has been trying to fix in his mind. I'm surprised YOU feel the same way as him. How is atheism illogical? Because it doesn't have an answer yet? That means it is agnostic atheism. That does not mean it is illogical. It IS more logical to believe that than theism, as been discussed to the point of ad naseam. Just about everyone in here has put in there 2 cents as to why you are wrong, read up my friend. Yes, there has even been people who'd pop in here and post directly to you, and not even to the trivial banter that has consumed this thread some time ago.

As for opposition that has somehow not been contested with... if I recall correctly no one has that in their minds, and I don't remember that either. You just stopped showing up in here and a bunch of people who were less articulate with their beliefs showed up and hadn't done very well in your stead.

Also:

That atheism is not completely logical (or rational). Hell, that was the point of the entire topic, not proving God
Isn't that the same thing? Am I missing something? I also do recall you defending the idea of a God being necessary in our discussions. Look back at your own words. ^_^; Did you forget what you believed back then or something?
 

john!

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a thought experiment...

suppose i dial a random 10-digit number on my phone, and before pressing send i say "the person who answers the call will be female". is that a logical belief?

suppose i am about to flip a coin, and before i flip i tell you "this flip will come up tails". is that a logical belief?

when someone tells me "god exists" or "god doesn't exist", they are doing the same thing as the phone caller and the coin flipper. they are making an assertion without evidence.

now, gwjumpman says that any claim should be considered false before any evidence is given. suppose one person says "the coin will come up heads" and another person says "the coin will come up tails". what would gwjumpman say about those claims? they can't both be false, and neither person has evidence for their claim.
 

MuraRengan

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That matters very little as to what is being said John. ._. I suppose you is a troll I guess. There's no way someone can do this without doing it on purpose.

As for Mura... I don't really know what you're talking about. You're kind of just saying things. That doesn't bode well if you're trying to assert something and be taken seriously. I don't see how I am the only one not on the same page. It is as if you just wanted to say that because you are bitter, which is seemingly the case because of how salty you seem in your post. D:
Well, I tried being civilized with you for a pretty long time, but clearly it wasn't working. Bitter? Hardly, I'm just calling it as it is, and you're further proving my point by continuing to act like a child. I'm sure you're familiar with ad hominem attacks, and how, specifically, they don't really work for argument. Calling me salty, making jokes about theists, etc, just shows that you can't comprehend or just don't wish to respond to the real points. Instead, you misconstrue points to make them seem ridiculous, and attack a strawman (another term I'm sure you probably know about.) So I'm not going to entertain you (and I'd advise, john!, that you do the same) anymore, because you stopped contributing anything of any worth a long time ago, and you clearly have no intent on doing so anymore.

I'll summarize why you're the only one not on the same page:

You consistently misunderstand pretty much every non-atheistic argument. Pretty much every argument with you is just a series of restating and clarifying premises because every response you give is inaccurate or irrelevant to the actual argument. You don't even know what most of the non-atheistic arguers' beliefs are, yet you continue to assume and ridicule them for the beliefs you think they have (most recent offense: assuming that john! believes in God when he made it clear already that he's agnostic). In short, you don't really argue, you just mangle up arguments and give inaccurate replies while believing to yourself that the people you're arguing with are just stupid delusional people. You're the ONLY one doing this.

I'm not really concerned with you admitting it yourself though, I just want to point out what you're doing to people like john! or Dre so that they can recognize that you're not worth responding to.

As for how the thread has been going, you must not have read your own blog (not too surprising, considering how long and dull it has been), but it hasn't been decided atheism isn't logical.. no one has said that. Except John!, which everyone has been trying to fix in his mind. I'm surprised YOU feel the same way as him. How is atheism illogical? Because it doesn't have an answer yet? That means it is agnostic atheism. That does not mean it is illogical. It IS more logical to believe that than theism, as been discussed to the point of ad naseam. Just about everyone in here has put in there 2 cents as to why you are wrong, read up my friend. Yes, there has even been people who'd pop in here and post directly to you, and not even to the trivial banter that has consumed this thread some time ago.
Whether or not atheism is logical is part of the argument. If it had been decided already, then I'd have no reason to argue. As I've said before, the problem with atheism is not just that science doesn't have the answer yet, but that it assumes that science can find the answer. Verm and I both argued to the point that it may be impossible for humans to comprehend the most important truths about the universe. (For instance: How do we know that it is even possible for science to understand how and why virtual particles come in and out of existence?) Assuming that science can explain everything also assumes that humans can comprehend everything, which is definitely an incorrect assumption. Verm and I also argued toward the likelihood of there being things that can't be comprehended. The responses to those arguments was to reject philosophy, not to actually show a flaw in the arguments themselves. It's not enough to use science to conclude atheism, because not only is our scientific understanding incomplete, it will likely never be complete.

The point has been made that atheism is more logical than theism. I can accept that. But atheism itself is still a conclusion based on incomplete knowledge and faulty assumptions, and that's not much better.

Isn't that the same thing? Am I missing something? I also do recall you defending the idea of a God being necessary in our discussions. Look back at your own words. ^_^; Did you forget what you believed back then or something?
Nope, not the same thing. I said it before, and clearly you missed it. The "god" proven by philosophical necessity cannot be known to have any of the properties associated with a traditional deity. The furthest we can know is of the existence of a metaphysical entity and its influence in our reality, because both of those characteristics are evident. Describing it as "God" is highly presumptuous and misleading. Yet again, you've made me repeat something I've already said.
 

Holder of the Heel

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No, because those decisions are entirely arbitrary, there is no system used to pick them, whereas with theism and atheism, there are various tools and knowledge we can use systematically to figure out the most likely possibility (until it is proven with certainty).

MuraRengan:

I'll reply anywhere from 20-60 minutes, busy until then.
 

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No, because those decisions are entirely arbitrary, there is no system used to pick them, whereas with theism and atheism, there are various tools and knowledge we can use systematically to figure out the most likely possibility (until it is proven with certainty).
here's a better example:

i give you an extremely complicated algebra equation (beyond the understanding of anyone not trained in advanced mathematics) and ask you to solve for the variable x. is it logical to believe that x is positive? how about negative?

if one person claims x is positive, and another claims x is negative, which belief is more logical? both are assertions without evidence. what would gwjumpman say? they can't both be false (assuming you know beforehand that the answer is not zero)
 

Chuee

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a thought experiment...

suppose i dial a random 10-digit number on my phone, and before pressing send i say "the person who answers the call will be female". is that a logical belief?

suppose i am about to flip a coin, and before i flip i tell you "this flip will come up tails". is that a logical belief?

when someone tells me "god exists" or "god doesn't exist", they are doing the same thing as the phone caller and the coin flipper. they are making an assertion without evidence.

now, gwjumpman says that any claim should be considered false before any evidence is given. suppose one person says "the coin will come up heads" and another person says "the coin will come up tails". what would gwjumpman say about those claims? they can't both be false, and neither person has evidence for their claim.
That's not the same thing.
The coin flip is an event that hasn't occurred, therefore you base your judgments off of probability.
The phone call depends on multiple somewhat random factors and probability too. However regarding the phone call itself you have no knowledge that would hint towards it being a male or female unless you knew the number.
We don't apply probability to God's existence because his existence is not an event that hasn't yet occurred. All we can do is examine the evidence and lean towards one side or the other with varying degrees of strength.
 

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At some point, john!, Dre, and I have all gotten at the same point: That atheism is not completely logical (or rational). Hell, that was the point of the entire topic, not proving God.
Wait a minute I never really said that. I'm a D(r)eist so I believe atheism isn't the most logical position, but that's different from saying it is irrational to hold that position, and I never said that.

What I said that technically atheism is equally metaphysically positive as theism, although that isn't the general consensus in contemporary philosophy of religion.
 

Holder of the Heel

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I'm a D(r)eist
Haha I liked that. XD

Well, I tried being civilized with you for a pretty long time, but clearly it wasn't working.
So, at one point you are like, "Well, trying to win this argument normally isn't going to convince him, time to attempt being an ***hole to him. Yeah that'll work! :D" Don't worry, I don't mind if you do, I won't do it back, I'll only comment on how I don't find it very sensible.

Bitter? Hardly, I'm just calling it as it is, and you're further proving my point by continuing to act like a child. I'm sure you're familiar with ad hominem attacks, and how, specifically, they don't really work for argument. Calling me salty, making jokes about theists, etc, just shows that you can't comprehend or just don't wish to respond to the real points. Instead, you misconstrue points to make them seem ridiculous, and attack a strawman (another term I'm sure you probably know about.)
First of all, those aren't hominem attacks, "I'm just calling it as it is". See how I can use that too? And funny how what all of this says doesn't address anything that I said requesting you to point out the evidence of what you mean. I don't think you can, the fact you didn't immediately do so reassures me even more. I haven't seen anyone else point this out as well, just John! just now.

So I'm not going to entertain you (and I'd advise, john!, that you do the same) anymore, because you stopped contributing anything of any worth a long time ago, and you clearly have no intent on doing so anymore.
Have you seen what John! has been saying thus far? I highly doubt you are aligned with the things he has said thus far, I'd put you a good deal of levels above him in terms of how well you post here. Anyways, again, as mentioned above, please point out the derivatives you speak of.

I'll summarize why you're the only one not on the same page:

You consistently misunderstand pretty much every non-atheistic argument. Pretty much every argument with you is just a series of restating and clarifying premises because every response you give is inaccurate or irrelevant to the actual argument. You don't even know what most of the non-atheistic arguers' beliefs are, yet you continue to assume and ridicule them for the beliefs you think they have (most recent offense: assuming that john! believes in God when he made it clear already that he's agnostic). In short, you don't really argue, you just mangle up arguments and give inaccurate replies while believing to yourself that the people you're arguing with are just stupid delusional people. You're the ONLY one doing this.
Can you say anything more than that example right there? You said I did a lot of things here, but didn't really provide any evidence. Quote some things, I don't mind if you put me on the spot. ^^

As for me thinking people are delusional, I am DEFINITELY not the only one. Are you sure you read your blog? D:

I'm not really concerned with you admitting it yourself though, I just want to point out what you're doing to people like john! or Dre so that they can recognize that you're not worth responding to.
Yikes. O_o Must you be so hurtful?

The point has been made that atheism is more logical than theism. I can accept that. But atheism itself is still a conclusion based on incomplete knowledge and faulty assumptions, and that's not much better.
Ahhh I love that! This is what everyone is saying! Everyone, look at this and rejoice! This is what we were going for, that was IT. At the very least that was my goal.

As a result, it is more illogical to believe in any form of theism, but not 100% guarenteed to be false. Thank you MuraRengan. <3 I don't wish to debate against anyone here anymore, you have finally ended me. (Not sarcasm, this is serious.)


Nope, not the same thing. I said it before, and clearly you missed it. The "god" proven by philosophical necessity cannot be known to have any of the properties associated with a traditional deity. The furthest we can know is of the existence of a metaphysical entity and its influence in our reality, because both of those characteristics are evident. Describing it as "God" is highly presumptuous and misleading. Yet again, you've made me repeat something I've already said.
Who said I was talking about any specific deity? (What are you getting this from Mura? D: ) We've been over this in the thread already, there are types of atheism, postive and negative. Negative means disbelief in any deity, positive means the disbelief in a deity figure AT ALL. That was what I was defending. People didn't start talking about specific Gods like the Christian one until much later, like when Verm came in (Which I took part in as well, but that was a separate tangent).
 

john!

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As a result, it is more illogical to believe in any form of theism, but not 100% guarenteed to be false. Thank you MuraRengan. <3 I don't wish to debate against anyone here anymore, you have finally ended me. (Not sarcasm, this is serious.)
oh heeellllllllll no! :smirk:

i mean you don't HAVE to answer my question about the algebra equation (although you should) but you should at least admit that agnosticism is more logical than atheism (since you seem to agree that atheism is not completely rational and is hardly better than theism)
 

MuraRengan

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I agree that agnosticism is more logical and both atheism and theism. That is, given that "logic" is deemed as conclusions based solely on universally valid empirical and/or philosophical truths. Yeah, if all I had to go on were science and philosphy, I'd have to be agnostic. But there are other factors that convince me not only to be a theist, but specifically a Catholic Christian. Those things aren't useful to this conversation though, because I can't definitively validate them.

But no, simply because atheism is more logical than theism doesn't mean I should choose to be atheist, because atheism has some pretty irreconcilable flaws as well.
 

Holder of the Heel

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Ah, glad we can mend the hard feelings. Sorry for making you angry before Mura. :D I agree, all have flaws. We usually pick the one with the least amount of flaws, but you have things separate to the debate that convinces you as well (the title is a bit misleading then! Eh, whatever).

We were discussing prior about the the status of agnosticism, and it was pointed out that it isn't really existent on its "own", but rather applies to an atheist or theist point of view. The only other slots are an apatheist (apathetic to the whole topic), like someone so aptly pointed out, and someone who simply hasn't heard of the debate before.
 

GwJ

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a thought experiment...

suppose i dial a random 10-digit number on my phone, and before pressing send i say "the person who answers the call will be female". is that a logical belief?

suppose i am about to flip a coin, and before i flip i tell you "this flip will come up tails". is that a logical belief?

when someone tells me "god exists" or "god doesn't exist", they are doing the same thing as the phone caller and the coin flipper. they are making an assertion without evidence.

now, gwjumpman says that any claim should be considered false before any evidence is given. suppose one person says "the coin will come up heads" and another person says "the coin will come up tails". what would gwjumpman say about those claims? they can't both be false, and neither person has evidence for their claim.
here's a better example:

i give you an extremely complicated algebra equation (beyond the understanding of anyone not trained in advanced mathematics) and ask you to solve for the variable x. is it logical to believe that x is positive? how about negative?

if one person claims x is positive, and another claims x is negative, which belief is more logical? both are assertions without evidence. what would gwjumpman say? they can't both be false (assuming you know beforehand that the answer is not zero)
I LOVE how you're making it sound like the existence of god is a 50/50 issue.

Either god exists or he doesn't, right? Either you're right or I'm right, so we have an equal chance of being correct, right?

Let me revise your first example.

Suppose I dial a random 10-digit number on my phone, and before pressing "send" I say, "The person who answers the call will be from Allentown, Pennsylvania. Zip code is 18106."
This is not a logical belief because the chance of it being true is slim because since it is random, there is no reason to believe the area code will be the area code of said area.


Suppose I am about to roll a 2,000-sided die, and before I roll it I tell you, "This die will come up as 1,362." This is not a logical belief, because there is literally a 1:2000 chance of you being correct.


Suppose I am thinking about the existence of god, and before I come to my conclusion I do research and discover that there is no scientific evidence of god and I said, "I believe there is a god despite there being no scientific evidence for it yet." That is illogical, because there is no evidence to support it and he have no prior evidence for anything supernatural happening.
 

Dre89

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John by your own logic you have a BoP too. You said the atheist has a BoP because they deem current arguments/evidence for God unsatisfactory. However, you also deem that to be the case, because if you did find it satisfactory you'd be a theist.

As an agnostic you're basically saying 'I don't know if this evidence is enough to make belief in God rational' which is just as much a position on the issue as saying 'I don't believe this evidence is sufficient'.

You're still commenting on the evidence, so by your own logic you would have a BoP too.
 
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