Why does samus give falco a hard time?

[ADHD]

And why doesn't she give fox such a hard time as falco? i've been wanting to know this for a while

 

[Eggm]

Theres no real good way to attack samus, and if the samus is good at pressuring/power shielding she is goin to put you into bad situations if all you do is spam. Up + b out of shield and cc (insert attack) or wd back (insert attack) makes it nearly impossible to approach. Samus however also sucks at approaching, so its kinda a battle of position and tricking your opponent. IMO samus has the advantage cause if she gets tricked shes not necessarily dead so fast like falco is. My chances vs my crewmate treble's samus on recovering once knocked off are worse than when i fall off against m2k's marth. Also i'm no newb at recovering anyone in my area would vouch for that. Not to be cocky but i'm probably the very best falco at getting back to the stage once knocked off. Anyways. i don't feel like explaining anymore. Oh wait. The fox/falco thing. IMO shes just as good vs fox. But fox is slighty better at Koing her than falco is, so fox is slighty better vs samus which makes it seem like shes not as good vs fox. But IMO falco is at a 45 55 disadvantage with samus and fox vs samus is about 50/50.

 

[JonaDiaper]

i think fox is better not becuase of the ko'ing but becuase his recover is like twice as good as falco's. falcos recovery sucks badd. fox gets some major distance with his.

 

[Winston]

Fox just has lots of things Falco doesn't have in that matchup - a recovery that's bit harder to gimp, a MUCH easier time KOing, a slightly easier time comboing, better edgeguarding. Probably the most important thing is that he's much faster, letting him get around Samus' defensive abilities better.

 

[bahamutz69]

ide say its mostly in the approach.
also if the samus powershield then the task becomes much easier.
even with samus' godly WD some simple mindgames can get falco inside, but then theres always the problem of samus' weight class/floatiness. im not sure how others feel but samus is slightly awkward to combo, especially with shines since she goes to high and falls so slowly. if you can get her off the ground and off guard then falcos lasers can truely devour her.

fox probably has an easier time because hes much faster on his feet than falco, also with his lasers acting as a distracting its easy to get in a nair > shine. but im not exactly sure how effective fox's grounded shine is on samus. and just the fact that fox is broke.

 

[Mogwai]

I find Fox vs. Samus way harder to play, but that's partially cause I suck with Fox. I dunno, Lasers control space very well vs. Samus, and Fox doesn't have that luxury, so I find that matchup to be a huge pain in the balls, even if Fox has an easier time killing Samus.

As Falco, I just shoot teh lazers at Samus and eventually she dies. I dunno, the only Samus I ever felt like I was at a disadvantage against was HugS and I really just felt it was cause he's a better player, not cause Falco has Samus trouble. You just need to be smart about stuff and not get hit by the things that lead to you getting killed. Getting hit by an upB out of shield is not as bad as getting CC dsmashed or daired while you're stuck in shine from stupidly reflecting a missle, so don't get upset when she gets her free couple %s from upBing out of shield, because in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't make terribly much of a difference.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

^^A def agree w/ mogwai here, both space animals have very limited options for approaching samus, but falco has lasers... so he can just... laser.

Spoiler

"this ***** got 76% dmg from ****in lasers!" fc3 crews 2good lol

I hate fighting samus with anyone tho, you can't combo that ***** lol.... uthrow->uair doesn't work with fox >.> I hate that. Nair doesn't work either, it just gets CC'd. Only things that work are uppsmash and drillshine. No wait if you uppsmash at to low % she can nair you before the lag ends LMAO.

cool that you've played hugs tho mogwai, i remember him saying in some thread that samus has the advantage over falco (despite the lasers)... It sort of surprised me, but hell we all know he knows what he's talking about when it comes to samus. Was there anything different in how he handled the lasers or something else about the matchup that he did differently?

 

[Mogwai]

^^A def agree w/ mogwai here, both space animals have very limited options for approaching samus, but falco has lasers... so he can just... laser.

Spoiler

"this ***** got 76% dmg from ****in lasers!" fc3 crews 2good lol

I hate fighting samus with anyone tho, you can't combo that ***** lol.... uthrow->uair doesn't work with fox >.> I hate that. Nair doesn't work either, it just gets CC'd. Only things that work are uppsmash and drillshine. No wait if you uppsmash at to low % she can nair you before the lag ends LMAO.

cool that you've played hugs tho mogwai, i remember him saying in some thread that samus has the advantage over falco (despite the lasers)... It sort of surprised me, but hell we all know he knows what he's talking about when it comes to samus. Was there anything different in how he handled the lasers or something else about the matchup that he did differently?

He spaces wavedash out of shield into ftilt really well to hit you out of short range SHLs and recovers intelligently, without using bombs. Other than that, not really. He doesn't powersheild abnormally well or anything, he just sorta gets his hits in and then has superb edgegaurding.

I did shine him off the top of yoshi's story at like 50%ish twice in one match though, lol.

 

[AXE 09]

i think it's just samus's up b. falco players love to pressure shields, but samus can just up b out of it :/

 

[westbankboi89]

Ok nub to the server here, but out of my 3 thousand matchs so far as falco, i would say all of them have been three way matches with fox, samus and falco. The thing is samus has the natural ability to give and take damage way more easily than falco. Its mainy because she's heavier and she doesn't get launched as far. she has the natural upperhand for that. and fox is just overall better than falco, but still has the same problems that falco face's when fighting samus.

 

[Mogwai]

Ok nub to the server here, but out of my 3 thousand matchs so far as falco, i would say all of them have been three way matches with fox, samus and falco. The thing is samus has the natural ability to give and take damage way more easily than falco. Its mainy because she's heavier and she doesn't get launched as far. she has the natural upperhand for that. and fox is just overall better than falco, but still has the same problems that falco face's when fighting samus.

Welcome to the boards, I'm glad to see new faces on smashboards.

That being said, please don't try to judge matchups based on 3-for-all play, as the game dynamics are highly different in one on one matches on tournament stages. The fact of the matter is that Falco is much better at dealing damage than samus, but has control issues in the matchup, since most Falcos rely heavily on sheild pressure to limit their opponent's options and Samus can up B out of sheild through the most popular form of Falco sheild pressure (pilaring). Falco also has some serious problems killing Samus as he can't easily combo floaty characters into kill moves or edgeguard an intelligent Samus.

 

[W.Jr]

The reason is, because samus is sick as hell. lol

 

[xMosmo]

utilt.

i ****ing hate samus' utilt.

 

[Big_R]

yo just play them a lot and its boring but u will know what to do when the time comes young padiwans

 

[Razor]

wow, i'm really surprised eggm thinks falco is at a disadvantage against samus.

i'm not sure why everyone things falco and fox have no good approach against samus. falco has lasers to grab and fox can nair or use the running upsmash. it's not the best approach but i'd say they have better approaches than most.

the way i look at it is this: falco can rack up damage faster but fox can kill samus quicker. upsmash and upairs **** samus. falco doesn't really have a solid kill move on samus.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So you're saying Fox should spam Nair vs Samus?

Wouldn't that get us ***** by CC and Up+B?

If Falco loses, IMO, it's mostly because his risk/reward is crap vs Samus. He doesn't get a large reward for anything. Neither does Samus, really, but she's used to that, and it's easy to cheat and get large rewards vs Falco because he's easy to gimp.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

wow, i'm really surprised eggm thinks falco is at a disadvantage against samus.

i'm not sure why everyone things falco and fox have no good approach against samus. falco has lasers to grab and fox can nair or use the running upsmash. it's not the best approach but i'd say they have better approaches than most.

the way i look at it is this: falco can rack up damage faster but fox can kill samus quicker. upsmash and upairs **** samus. falco doesn't really have a solid kill move on samus.

nair will get you cc ***** (yes i know you beat me to this kirbykaze <3)

usmash is only good if you're sure it's gonna hit, otherwise she can easily punish you. It's harder to punish then most attacks of that strength sure, but it still isn't hard to punish.
it can't combo it into anything anyway on samus, she goes to far at to low % (so she can jump away or nair before you can hit her with anything). In PAL usmash atleast, but I doubt thats different in NTSC

 

[KirbyKaze]

nair will get you cc ***** (yes i know you beat me to this kirbykaze <3)

usmash is only good if you're sure it's gonna hit, otherwise she can easily punish you. It's harder to punish then most attacks of that strength sure, but it still isn't hard to punish.
it can't combo it into anything anyway on samus, she goes to far at to low % (so she can jump away or nair before you can hit her with anything). In PAL usmash atleast, but I doubt thats different in NTSC

Even with massive NTSC power it's possible to punish. If spaced it's hard, sure, but I'm pretty sure Samus and Sheik can WD OoS and D-smash against Fox U-smash. Or at least it seems that way. Sometimes it doesn't work for me but I assume that's me messing up. I'm sure other characters can do other stuff. I think ICs can get a grab or F-tilt or Jab if they do it fast enough which in itself is pretty awesome, and their jump isn't particularly fast...

 

[Watty]

I agree with Eggm falco is at a disadvantage simply because of the gimp factor and the up b. Samus to me has a better approach if they samus player is able to missile through the lasers. this makes the falcostop shooting shield or reflect the missile, giving the samus the chance to apply the shield pressure.

fox because the lasers dont stun its easier to get close and the up throw up air is hard to do on samus but its still a better match up. Fox is extremely hard to gimp shield pressure is a must but if the fox is smart (no offense but most arent) they will play a defensive style and not bank on there technical skill to not get the CC (insert move) But thats the problem with fox and falco players they think because there technical they cant get punished or dont realise u can l cancel perfect do everything perfect samus can still shield up b ur *** back to corneria.

its match up u have to learn u cant just go in and play it like ud play another floaty samus is her own thing. so every1 find a good samus player and learn up but not really cause that would make things harder on me=)

 

[Eggm]

Laser to grab is a horrible approach option vs samus btw lol. Good explanation watty.

 

[W.Jr]

If you want to own a samus player you got to camp alot for one, also got to mindgame them. Usually going in and then wavedash back, most likely works, the samus player should attack. If that doesn't work fox/falco have so many fake out to use. You should also be trying to out space samus with each of your moves, and you most use laser vs samus with falco/fox. Everyone knows to laser with falco it like a second nature, but on the other hand ppl who use fox hardly ever laser samus. Lasering with fox vs samus is a must, because you want the samus player to come to you and not the other way around. You'll notice that must samus players sit there waiting for you to make the first move, that is your opportunity to be use lasers, try to make them come to you. Got to space when using the laser so you dn't get owned by whatover the samus may use against you.