Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!

[Yuna]

And... lots of games have only one character to play as. What then?

Then it boils down to what options you have in the game.

You know Halo? The FPS where there are no characters in Multi-player? Well, there are weapons. Some are good, others bad, others godly. The Tier List in Halo consists of the weapons you have at your disposal. Single Player game Tier List can revolve about what weapons you have (like Super Mario Bros. 3 and the different Mario costumes).

But Single Player games can also be void of Tier Lists if there's only one character and one single option.

Mario, Pikachu, Yoshi, Wolf, Toon Link, Luigi, Falcon --> All high tier

How is Yoshi a High Tier? I also don't really see Captain Falcon in there.

Dude...You just failed.

Real bad.

For presenting from what I can tell a valid argument? I haven't played TF2, but I see nothing wrong in what he posted. When flaming someone, please present a valid reason why.

You guys are just plain wrong. Give me a Starcraft tier list now. You can't because the game is perfectly balanced.

Only through constant patching. It's an exception to the rule through said constant patching and the fact that the units themselves are programmed to be Rock-Paper-Scissors. And it also only has 3 races. It's still an exception to the rule.

Also, I'm sure there's a tierlist if you delve deeply into tournament results. It's just much more balanced than the majority of games out there.,

 

[shadydentist]

You guys are just plain wrong. Give me a Starcraft tier list now. You can't because the game is perfectly balanced.

Wrong. You can't give a tier list for starcraft not because its perfectly balanced, but because through battlenet patching, Blizzard attempts to keep it balanced.

The TF2 example was bad. You can't really put tiers into a team-based game. Its like saying that Zealots are top tier in starcraft, or Marth's up-B is top tier. You have to consider the whole of the competitive entity, in which case would be the team.

 

[Yuna]

The TF2 example was bad. You can't really put tiers into a team-based game. Its like saying that Zealots are top tier in starcraft, or Marth's up-B is top tier. You have to consider the whole of the competitive entity, in which case would be the team.

Yes you can. Why can't you?

If there are characters who are less useful in said team, then there's a tierlist. If there are characters that are more useful, tierlist. If you have to use one of each but there's an extra slot where one extra of this or that character would be the best, then there's a tier list.

 

[shadydentist]

It doesn't apply because TF2 is a game based on teamwork. Similar to the Starcraft arguement, Valve is constantly releasing new patches to ensure that each class has a very clearly defined niche. At the highest level of playing,a class's utility depends upon the specific situation the team is facing. For instance, a defending team will naturally require a greater number of engineers than an attacking team, or if the entire enemy team goes heavy/medic, then a team would benefit from having more snipers and spies. The list goes on.

The point is, the usefulness of a character varies way too much for any kind of credible tier list to be formed. Whereas in Melee, you could point to certain characters winning tournaments, there is no equivalent in Team Fortress.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Backn on discussion please...seriously..>_>

And I'm starting to realise the balance in this game. It's not hard to completely own with one character, only to suck with another.

Still...tiers exist. I mean, look at Ganon..T_T He simply isn't on an even playing field with Marth.

 

[Jimiisama]

People who say tier lists have no place in a balanced game seriously do not understand what a tier list represents. We say that unbalanced games are "tiered", generally suggesting that the top tier characters completely outrank lower tier characters in most situations. Trying to use examples from other games, in MVC2, the "God Tier" (because they outrank top tier) characters are staples in any tournament team and almost MUST be incorporated into any team if you want to win with consistency. A game like GGXX:AC is far more balanced, where a top tier character and a low tier character can still have a decent matchup; this is a balanced game, but they still have tiers. Tiers indicate which characters generally do well (usually by summing up some kind of matchup points) in competitive play (i.e. based on how tourney players TYPICALLY play the given character.. not necessarily how you play with your friends); a well-balanced game doesn't mean it's "untiered" but rather that the tiers are more balanced (i.e. you don't have a handful of top and upper tiers with everyone else being mid to bottom).

I'm always amused about how offended people seem to get when referring to tier lists; it's as if people are almost in denial that their favorite character is low tier. If you like a character and it's working out for you, then a tier list shouldn't stop you from enjoying the game.

 

[Jimiisama]

It doesn't apply because TF2 is a game based on teamwork. Similar to the Starcraft arguement, Valve is constantly releasing new patches to ensure that each class has a very clearly defined niche. At the highest level of playing,a class's utility depends upon the specific situation the team is facing. For instance, a defending team will naturally require a greater number of engineers than an attacking team, or if the entire enemy team goes heavy/medic, then a team would benefit from having more snipers and spies. The list goes on.

The point is, the usefulness of a character varies way too much for any kind of credible tier list to be formed. Whereas in Melee, you could point to certain characters winning tournaments, there is no equivalent in Team Fortress.

Actually that's not a very good analogy. The tier list doesn't mean "higher tiered characters beat lower tiered characters". A tier list means "higher tiered characters generally have favorable matchups when compared to lower tiered characters." Just because a character is higher tiered than another character doesn't mean his matchup against him is favorable (think of Sheik vs Climbers in Melee). In a similar way, you could say specific team setups have favorable matchups against other specific team setups, but what the tier list is saying is that GENERALLY these classes are staples in any balanced team.

 

[Wingless Abaddon]

To put it simply, Tiers are there to show who is played more/wins more. Not to say that one character is better than another, just that people prefer that character and that character tends to win.

At the GS Brawl tourny by me, most people mained Samus. Samus made it to the finals but lost to a Mario. Though that may mean nothing in the long run, it might well put Samus in a higher bracket(if that one tourny counted more than the others) than Mario. Not because Samus was better(clearly) but because there were more Samus players and those players did well(kinda).

 

[Squadallah]

When have tier lists been relevant for any fighting game?

 

[Yuna]

To put it simply, Tiers are there to show who is played more/wins more. Not to say that one character is better than another, just that people prefer that character and that character tends to win.

At the GS Brawl tourny by me, most people mained Samus. Samus made it to the finals but lost to a Mario. Though that may mean nothing in the long run, it might well put Samus in a higher bracket(if that one tourny counted more than the others) than Mario. Not because Samus was better(clearly) but because there were more Samus players and those players did well(kinda).

Wrong. Tier lists show who's better. The fact that the best characters are also the most often used comes from the fact that people want to win and thus choose the characters with the greatest chance of winning. These characters' metagames thus evolve faster.

But if an underdeveloped characters' metagame is developed further and more is discovered about them to make them a good character, then their place on tierlist will rise. How popular a character is means squat if their potential is limited.

When have tier lists been relevant for any fighting game?

Since always?

 

[Soloman]

You obviously do not know what the meaning of the word "Tier List" is. Tier lists exist for all games (fighter or not). The only way for a game to not have a tierlist would to have all of the characters be exactly the same.

u are mistaken, friend.

aside from fighting games maybe wow (tier4-6.5)

But if u are talkin bout first person shooters? Tiers make absolutely no sense there. Tiers are only for fighting games based on the effectiveness several chars have over others.

and plz try to disagree with me on that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Where's my Team Fortress 2 tier list?

Well, no TIER LIST exists (that I know of anyway), but TIERS do.

It's there, just nobody (that I know of) put it on paper... yet. Tiers exist independently of somebody actually putting them on paper, because certain characters are better then others, that's what creates tiers.

u are mistaken, friend.

aside from fighting games maybe wow (tier4-6.5)

But if u are talkin bout first person shooters? Tiers make absolutely no sense there. Tiers are only for fighting games based on the effectiveness several chars have over others.

and plz try to disagree with me on that.

In FPS games it's generally the weapons, tell me that the Halo 2 Needler was more powerful then the Energy sword.


In strategy games it's units (Heroes 3 Vampire vs just about any level 4 unit) and factions.

Etc, tiers are simply something caused by the fact that perfect balance is near impossible (the "near" being of course, making everything the same).

 

[Folt]

u are mistaken, friend.

aside from fighting games maybe wow (tier4-6.5)

But if u are talkin bout first person shooters? Tiers make absolutely no sense there. Tiers are only for fighting games based on the effectiveness several chars have over others.

and plz try to disagree with me on that.

Weapons perhaps?

 

[ICE27]

cmon ppl i know there are some ppl that wanna play some one on ones hit me up

 

[Yuna]

u are mistaken, friend.

aside from fighting games maybe wow (tier4-6.5)

But if u are talkin bout first person shooters? Tiers make absolutely no sense there. Tiers are only for fighting games based on the effectiveness several chars have over others.

and plz try to disagree with me on that.

Maybe you missed the post in which I talked about how a lot of FPS games have tierlists based on weapons.

Not all games have noticable tiers, but they're omnipresent. There's no way to perfectly balance everything unless we're going to make everything the exact same. If a characters/weapons/whatever have the same strength, then the tiers will move onto what's the easiest to use.

 

[Fabrian]

Where's my sonic adventure 2 battle tier list...

 

[Yuna]

Where's my sonic adventure 2 battle tier list...

Tier list written down =/= Tier list existing.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Maybe you missed the post in which I talked about how a lot of FPS games have tierlists based on weapons.

Not all games have noticable tiers, but they're omnipresent. There's no way to perfectly balance everything unless we're going to make everything the exact same. If a characters/weapons/whatever have the same strength, then the tiers will move onto what's the easiest to use.

Maybe, but if you scrutinize every little thing into a tierlist for brawl. You're going to make alot of ignorant people all play the same character over and over and over.

A tier list is still unnessesary.

 

[Yuna]

Maybe, but if you scrutinize every little thing into a tierlist for brawl. You're going to make alot of ignorant people all play the same character over and over and over.

Those are called tierwhores, be they educated or uneducated. It's a necessary evil.

A tier list is still unnessesary.

How so? What about the people who wish to know whether their character just outright sucks (Yoshi) or if their character is really, really good (Toon Link)?

Maybe some people think their character's got a lot of potential and then, once they take a look at said potential, they'll realize their character is so limited that high level play as said character would be interminably boring because they'd have a constant uphill battle against everyone.

There are also lists for everything.

Tier lists are a necessary evil. Why is Brawl so special and different that a tier list is unnecessary? Because you think so?

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Those are called tierwhores, be they educated or uneducated. It's a necessary evil.

Actually most people in the world prefer to do what ever is easier. Not all...but most. And it spans way farther than videogames. Ugh.

How so? What about the people who wish to know whether their character just outright sucks (Yoshi) or if their character is really, really good (Toon Link)?

Because there are alot more factors to who wins, than the characters on a purely dissected level. Okay, a PERFECTLY played Link VS. a PERFECTLY played Yoshi, has a SLIGHT dissadvantage...well so what? You're gonna chicken out on playing your favorite character because in a perfect game he has a disadvantage? Its a videogame, try to enjoy it.

Maybe some people think their character's got a lot of potential and then, once they take a look at said potential, they'll realize their character is so limited that high level play as said character would be interminably boring because they'd have a constant uphill battle against everyone.

I played Ness in Melee, and i liked the constant uphill battle. Oh but maybe that's because I'm not a ***** about it. Also...It's a game, I have other things in life to be "THE BEST AT ^_^!!"

There are also lists for everything.

Thats because people can't keep their opinions to themselves. Or somthing is so misbalanced, people can all agree on it.

Tier lists are a necessary evil. Why is Brawl so special and different that a tier list is unnecessary? Because you think so?

Brawl isn't special, its a game, like skipping rocks across the water. Do you want to make a tier list for that? How about we make all of our own opinionated tier lists for EVERYTHING, so we can force our opinions on EVERYONE ELSE? ...Do you have to suck the fun out of everything and make it a science fair project?

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Maybe you missed the post in which I talked about how a lot of FPS games have tierlists based on weapons.

Oi. Did you read my post where I mention that TF2 character classes have different speed and hit point values, as well as having pre-set weapon configurations that cannot be changed? They have actual roles of play and such, and a tier list in TF2 would likely be based on what is seen in tournament teams most often (which would definitely be Soldiers, Scouts, and Medics).

 

[Yuna]

Actually most people in the world prefer to do what ever is easier. Not all...but most. And it spans way farther than videogames. Ugh.

So we shouldn't make tierlists because some people always choose the easier way? Good logic.

Because there are alot more factors to who wins, than the characters on a purely dissected level. Okay, a PERFECTLY played Link VS. a PERFECTLY played Yoshi, has a SLIGHT dissadvantage...well so what? You're gonna chicken out on playing your favorite character because in a perfect game he has a disadvantage? Its a videogame, try to enjoy it.

In a lot of matchups, it's not even about perfectly played X's vs. perfectly played Y's. Some characters are just so far behind everyone a perfectly played Y will lose against a sloppily played X.

I give you NTSC Melee Sheik vs. Anyone She Can Chaingrab. Or, for even more fun, I give you NTSC Melee Beta Sheik vs. Anyone She Can Chaingrab.

Beta-Sheik is just like NTSC-Sheik, only her upair is even stronger and her needles explode.

And sorry, this is Competitive Gaming. In Competitive gaming, we play to win. Sometimes, that means playing a character who's not our favourite character in a videogame (if said favourite character is reaally crappy). So what if someone's favourite character in Melee might be Mewtwo? Mewtwo's got the odds against him he's got an uphill battle in almost every single matchup there is. Sometimes, the uphill battle is so large it's virtually impossible for him to win.

A MewTwo player has to be leagues better than a Marth player to win.

If we're playing strictly "for fun", then, yes, if I really liked Mewtwo, then I might play as him. But in Competitive Gaming, in tournaments where there are prizes/money/both on the line, even if I loved Mewtwo, I wouldn't go for him. Because it's almost impossible to do well as him.

It might not be your cup of tea, but it is mine (and pretty much every single competitive fighting game players', you don't play Bottom Tiers just because you happen to like their playstyle, at least not in important matches... unless the game happens to be called Guilty Gear XX (any of them)).

Who are you to dictate what we can and cannot do because you perceive that it takes the fun out of things? Competitive gaming is still fun for those who choose to play competitively. Yes, there are those who choose to play Low Tiers either for the prestige (and I laugh at them - It's OK to play a Low Tier because you want to, it's not OK to think you're worth more than someone else for playing a Lot Tier) orbecause they just love their characters so darn much. But when was the last time you saw a Pichu place well in a tournament?

Our fun might not be the same and your fun (items/Final Smashes/Low Tiers/what have you). But it's our way.

I played Ness in Melee, and i liked the constant uphill battle. Oh but maybe that's because I'm not a ***** about it. Also...It's a game, I have other things in life to be "THE BEST AT ^_^!!"

Are you saying that those who take Competitive gaming seriously should just get a life? Classy.

Thats because people can't keep their opinions to themselves. Or somthing is so misbalanced, people can all agree on it.

O... K...

Brawl isn't special, its a game, like skipping rocks across the water. Do you want to make a tier list for that? How about we make all of our own opinionated tier lists for EVERYTHING, so we can force our opinions on EVERYONE ELSE? ...Do you have to suck the fun out of everything and make it a science fair project?

There's a tierlist for skipping rocks across water. What kind of water, what kind of weather, what kind of rock (size/weight/hollowness), etc. Not all rocks are made the same.

We're not forcing our opinions on anyone. We're presenting them to the public at large. People can choose whether or not to take part of them and if so whether or not to take heed to them.

No one takes a look at a tierlist and is forced into tierwhoring. Free Will - look it up. It's even got an angel (Tabris).

Oi. Did you read my post where I mention that TF2 character classes have different speed and hit point values, as well as having pre-set weapon configurations that cannot be changed? They have actual roles of play and such, and a tier list in TF2 would likely be based on what is seen in tournament teams most often (which would definitely be Soldiers, Scouts, and Medics).

Oi, did you see the part where the word "FPS" is not the same thing as "Team Fortress 2"? And the fact that not all FPS:es are like TF2?

And some other people's post about how not even TF2 (or Starcraft) is so perfectly balanced (if so, then why the constant patching?)? While it's very balanced, there are probably still tiers, just that the differences aren't that noticable. It's also a team-based game. What are the teams that win usually comprised of? You can build a tierlist off of that.

 

[xelad1]

=

Brawl isn't special, its a game, like skipping rocks across the water. Do you want to make a tier list for that? How about we make all of our own opinionated tier lists for EVERYTHING, so we can force our opinions on EVERYONE ELSE? ...Do you have to suck the fun out of everything and make it a science fair project?

Brawl isn't just a game, its a game that will probably see competitive play at some point. It also sports a huge character roster. Tier lists aren't even based on opinion, they are based on tournament placings. Albeit tiers can be initially biased since competitive players tend to pick characters based on ease of use and dominance, but eventually everything useful about every character will be balanced and there will be little fluxuation in rankings of the "best" or "most useful" characters.

Tiers (when made properly) are completely objective pursuits, which explains why they change over time. Once a tier list is established, however, you can be sure that it will give a good impression of which characters are in the "best" or "worst" categories. For instance marth is known to be pretty darn good competitively now... many arguing for him as the best character. Over time (like what happened with sheik) people will find new and more effective ways of playing characters which could make someone like marth much less dominant. This will cause a change in the tiers etc. etc...

The fact is that brawl is blatantly not a balanced game especially due to the removal of l cancelling where the characters with the most auto cancelled lag have a huge advantage. Unless you play games competitively you can't understand why tiers will exist and why people care about establishing them. You can't just argue against this as some sort of overanalyzation when people put down money on the line for "just a game". Basketball played at its base level is "just a game", but would you tell professional players to stop training so hard and to stop figuring out new ways to boost their performance because basketball is just like "skipping stones". I bet if skipping stones was done for money people would have a tier list for best stone etc too.

This is really long but its really dumb when people post anti tier list arguments that make no sense. I don't see how this sucks the fun out of anything, apparently the people who work on tier lists find it fun and if you let yourself have less fun by reading about tiers well then thats just sad.

 

[xelad1]

Also this is the team fortress 2 tier list

God:
Heavy because hes big and does a lot of damage

Good:
Demoman because he has one eye
Soldier because of crit rockets

Average:
Pyro because he has flame but is also bad
Sniper because he can snipe but is weak
Engi because he builds but has no other weapons

Bad:
Scout because hes fast but weak and annoying
Spy because he 1 shots people which is noob

Terrible:
Medic because he is a wimp and doesnt fight just heals.

 

[Umby]

Yuna wins thread. </discussion>

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Brawl isn't special, its a game, like skipping rocks across the water. Do you want to make a tier list for that?

If that's your mindset you shouldn't even be in this discussion.



All I want to say is that, quite simply:

There re always tiers, in most games you play.

I love Brawling mindlessly with items, don't get me wrong, but when you say there are NO tiers (competatively) for a game is when things get odd.

Of course there are tiers, and OP, you can't ever say that there's no place for a tier list in a fighter so diverse as Brawl. What I DO understand is that the tier list may be less defined, as many others as well as myself are realizing that Brawl seems a little more forgiving than Melee and perhaps even more balanced.

Foolish discussion IMO.

 

[Bendu]

Also this is the team fortress 2 tier list

God:
Heavy because hes big and does a lot of damage

Good:
Demoman because he has one eye
Soldier because of crit rockets

Average:
Pyro because he has flame but is also bad
Sniper because he can snipe but is weak
Engi because he builds but has no other weapons

Bad:
Scout because hes fast but weak and annoying
Spy because he 1 shots people which is noob

Terrible:
Medic because he is a wimp and doesnt fight just heals.

I really hope that was a joke post. I know how wrong that is and I don't even play TF2.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Anything can be "competitive"...I don't know why you use the word around here like a sword. Fine you devoted your entire being to a videogame.

When you make #1 best ever. You gimme a call, I will congratulate you on doing whatever it takes to win

 

[Yuna]

Anything can be "competitive"...I don't know why you use the word around here like a sword. Fine you devoted your entire being to a videogame.

Are you trying to sound condescending? Why is it so bad to devote your entire being to a videogame? Why is it worse than devoting "your entire being" to any other sport, like, high jumping or soccer? Because those sports have more "prestige"?

Also, why are you even participating in this discussion if you either look down upon or at least don't place that much value on Competitive gaming?! Anything can be competitive, it doesn't mean that it has competitive viability.

I'm sure people have held tournaments in Turtles Tournament Fighter. It doesn't mean the game is worth crap.

Okay dude. When you make #1 best ever. You gimme a call, I will congratulate you on doing whatever it takes to win

Wow, what an insightful post. So instead of trying to counter-argue my points/conceede defeat, you choose to employ the fr0st2k strategy (tm)? Ignore them all in favour of a desperate attempt to change the subject?

Why do I have to be #1 in the world in order to qualify myself to discussing competitive gaming? If that was the case, then only one person would ever be allowed to dictate how competitive Smash should be. Also, just because you're #1 does not mean you necessarily know more about the theory than someone who isn't. I'm not saying Ken, PC Chris, Mango, M2K and people on their level are ignorant of the inner workings of Melee (and now Brawl) but there are probably people who know more.

For one thing, for years Mew2King was one of the world's best at theory Smash... yet he wasn't even Top10 in the U.S. (though he was still good, of course).

You know all of those High School football coaches? Do you think they could do half as well as their players on the field? But do you doubt that their expertise exceedes that of their players?

No, really, either try to refute my arguments or conceede defeat (or run away with your tail between your legs by doing neither, I guess). But trying to change the subject (with a "joke"-ish attitude) is an too often-used strategy that's blatantly disrespectful.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Don't mind Yuna. He's just a really elaborate troll.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

If that's your mindset you shouldn't even be in this discussion.



All I want to say is that, quite simply:

There re always tiers, in most games you play.

I love Brawling mindlessly with items, don't get me wrong, but when you say there are NO tiers (competatively) for a game is when things get odd.

Of course there are tiers, and OP, you can't ever say that there's no place for a tier list in a fighter so diverse as Brawl. What I DO understand is that the tier list may be less defined, as many others as well as myself are realizing that Brawl seems a little more forgiving than Melee and perhaps even more balanced.

Foolish discussion IMO.

My problem is sharing the "tier list" why don't you just play and make up your own mind instead of mind hiving everyone into doing the same. I know it was neccessary with brawl, I don't fault you for it. But I don't think there needs to be a "tier list" for brawl, and if the characters ARE grossly misbalanced, there certainly dosn't need to be one yet.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

double post. <3

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Wow, what an insightful post. So instead of trying to counter-argue my points/conceede defeat, you choose to employ the fr0st2k strategy (tm)? Ignore them all in favour of a desperate attempt to change the subject?

Why do I have to be #1 in the world in order to qualify myself to discussing competitive gaming? If that was the case, then only one person would ever be allowed to dictate how competitive Smash should be. Also, just because you're #1 does not mean you necessarily know more about the theory than someone who isn't. I'm not saying Ken, PC Chris, Mango, M2K and people on their level are ignorant of the inner workings of Melee (and now Brawl) but there are probably people who know more.

For one thing, for years Mew2King was one of the world's best at theory Smash... yet he wasn't even Top10 in the U.S. (though he was still good, of course).

You know all of those High School football coaches? Do you think they could do half as well as their players on the field? But do you doubt that their expertise exceedes that of their players?

No, really, either try to refute my arguments or conceede defeat (or run away with your tail between your legs by doing neither, I guess). But trying to change the subject (with a "joke"-ish attitude) is an too often-used strategy that's blatantly disrespectful.

I'm not joking, I applaud your tenacity.

However I am not as passionate about the subject, and as this is a purely opinion based arguement. There will be no winner, despite how much you argue, or I argue with you.

 

[Yuna]

My problem is sharing the "tier list" why don't you just play and make up your own mind instead of mind hiving everyone into doing the same. I know it was neccessary with brawl, I don't fault you for it. But I don't think there needs to be a "tier list" for brawl, and if the characters ARE grossly misbalanced, there certainly dosn't need to be one yet.

See my edit of my last post. I edited it in response to your edit (to reply to it).

Why do you have a problem with us sharing the Tier list? It does actually help some people. It's like saying you should not share news about killings because there might be copycats. Or that you should not teach martial arts because some people might use it for evil.

The tiers exist whether you like it or not, at least in Brawl. It's blatantly obvious tiers exist in Brawl. Putting it down on paper will just help people differentiate better. Can you motivate why we shouldn't do it other than "I don't like it!" and "Some people tierwhore!"?

 

[MaximoSmasher]

See my edit of my last post. I edited it in response to your edit (to reply to it).

Why do you have a problem with us sharing the Tier list? It does actually help some people. It's like saying you should not share news about killings because there might be copycats. Or that you should not teach martial arts because some people might use it for evil.

Well put it this way. I like advance wars, im playing the new one online. But since people have been swayed into thinking picking "Tabitha" is an automatic win, I'm fighting ALOT of tabithas.....Which isn't a problem since I normally win, I actually get annoyed at all these people thinking the character will do the work for them. Uhhhgg just all the lazy useless people out there, it can get overwhelming. Winning or Losing dosn't come into it for me.

The tiers exist whether you like it to not. Putting it down on paper will just help people differentiate better. Can you motivate why we shouldn't do it other than "I don't like it!" and "Some people tierwhore!"?

It will help 13 year olds pick the same character over and over. Why not just figure it out for yourself if you're a pro gamer?

Growing up playing videogames I didn't have a tier list. Me and my friends just played until we were good at it, those were good times.

 

[Yuna]

However I am not as passionate about the subject, and as this is a purely opinion based arguement. There will be no winner, despite how much you argue, or I argue with you.

There's always a winner when someone is wrong.

Why is it wrong to write a tierlist? And who are you to say when a tierlist can be made. Of course, we can't made a definite or even reliable tierlist right now because the game is too new. But that doesn't mean it's wrong to make one if enough people can explore the game enough for an insightful view into the inner workings of the game. But your argument isn't that it's too soon, it's that there shouldn't be a tierlist altogether.

Who are you to dictate what we can and cannot do? I'm a big fan of Free Will. Look it up. You might not like it, but how the hell is it destroying your enjoyment of the game if somewhere along the line we create a tier list? If you do not wish to take part of it, ignore it. No one is going to be holding you down and forcing you to view it.

Well put it this way. I like advance wars, im playing the new one online. But since people have been swayed into thinking picking "Tabitha" is an automatic win, I'm fighting ALOT of tabithas.....Which isn't a problem since I normally win, I actually get annoyed at all these people thinking the character will do the work for them. Uhhhgg just all the lazy useless people out there, it can get overwhelming. Winning or Losing dosn't come into it for me.

As I already said, you only argument seems to be "There are tierwhores out there!".

Yes, and? People who just picks the best characters in the game without devoting time to become good with them will suffer for it. Those who invest a lot of time will win. What's your point?

Even without a tierlist, there are people will go for the character(s) they feel are the best in the game. That's human nature, especially in competitive fighting where you play to win.

It will help 13 year olds pick the same character over and over. Why not just figure it out for yourself if you're a pro gamer?

Growing up playing videogames I didn't have a tier list. Me and my friends just played until we were good at it, those were good times.

So your idea of fun is more important or valid than others' idea of fun (playing to win at all costs)? And your idea of fun should dictate how others are allowed to play/what they're allowed to do?

No really, your only argument seems to be "People tierwhore... in bad ways". Yes, and? People will still tierwhore, it's just that without a tierlist, people might tierwhore the wrong characters. But I guess you'd think that as a good thing.

You might not need or want a tierlist. Others do. Who are you to deny them that right?

 

[HaVoK x]

*sigh* i miss the shfflana

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Who are you to dictate what we can and cannot do? I'm a big fan of Free Will. Look it up. You might not like it, but how the hell is it destroying your enjoyment of the game if somewhere along the line we create a tier list? If you do not wish to take part of it, ignore it. No one is going to be holding you down and forcing you to view it.

Look at your last sentence, then tell me, why on earth you wtore the first sentence? You're trying to make me out to be a cruel dictator? lol...okay, I just don't think people should get wrapped up in tier lists.

Even without a tierlist, there are people will go for the character(s) they feel are the best in the game. That's human nature, especially in competitive fighting where you play to win.

Soooo...why make a list? Actually telling people whats best if they can figure it out on their own. I just think it enforces lazyness.

it's just that without a tierlist, people might tierwhore the wrong characters. But I guess you'd think that as a good thing.

Actually I think, if you can figure out how to win....you deserve to win. Rather than someone telling you how to win.

 

[Yuna]

Look at your last sentence, then tell me, why on earth you wtore the first sentence? You're trying to make me out to be a cruel dictator? lol...okay, I just don't think people should get wrapped up in tier lists.

Way to retcon yourself. According to your own past posts, you not only think people shouldn't get wrapped up in tierlists, you don't think they should exist at all.

There will always be tiers and people will always get wrapped up in tierlists if they want to play to win at all costs. If there's no tierlist to go by, they'll go by their own impressions, which character(s) they feel are the best. Sometimes they'll be right, sometimes they'll be wrong.

Soooo...why make a list? Actually telling people whats best if they can figure it out on their own. I just think it enforces lazyness.

Why teach? Why have schools at all if people can just read books and learn on their own? That kinda enforces laziness as well.

Why have public transportation, cars, trains and planes? That enforces laziness.

Because it helps people. It also prevents people from "figuring the wrong things out". Because less knowledgable people might not be able to work out that Fox and Falco are the best characters in Melee (trust me, very few Casual players I've ever met figured it out on their own).

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

God, I hate competitive Smash so much sometimes.