Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!

[MaximoSmasher]

God, I hate competitive Smash so much sometimes.

Don't hate competitive smash. Hate the few people with mental problems about it.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Because it helps people. It also prevents people from "figuring the wrong things out". Because less knowledgable people might not be able to work out that Fox and Falco are the best characters in Melee (trust me, very few Casual players I've ever met figured it out on their own).

Oh thank you great one. For making sure ALL people know to play "Super Final Destination Starfox Brothers" the game.

 

[Yuna]

Oh thank you great one. For making sure ALL people know to play "Super Final Destination Starfox Brothers" the game.

Aaah, fr0st2k's other tactic:
If you can't beat them, flame them (often illogically)

How does me talking about how people have the right to create a tier list for those who would choose to view it in any way equate to "No items, Stocks only, Fox only, Final Destination"? What we will be doing is point out what the community has determined is the best way to play the game Competitively/how to rank the characters.

What you are doing is rather much more close to "Fox only, FD". You're saying that your way is the best way and that no one should go against "that way". I'm just presenting an option. You're stating that it would be bad to do it any other way than yours (and also insulting anyone who thinks so in the process).

At least the Competitive Smash scene only presents guidelines for Competitive Smashers. If you do not wish to go to "our" tournaments, then you don't have to conform to our rules. You're talking as if your way should be everyone's way and insulting anyone who thinks differently.

People are free to choose whether to play by our standards or take part in our information or not.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

What you are doing is rather much more close to "Fox only, FD". You're saying that your way is the best way and that no one should go against "that way". I'm just presenting an option. You're stating that it would be bad to do it any other way than yours (and also insulting anyone who thinks so in the process).

Said the guy, who tells casuals how to play.

 

[Yuna]

Said the guy, who tells casuals how to play.

Quote me a single post where I've told Casuals how to play the game. Casuals are free to play the game however they want. I've never told anyone how to play the game "the right way" since there are many ways to play it.

However, the Competitive Scene has worked out rules on how to play the game Competitively. If you want to play it Competitively, then you have to follow "our" rules.

While a lot of Casuals have told me and others that we play the game "wrong", I have never told Casuals that they play the game the wrong way.

Seriously, find me a quote where I say it and I'll give you 100 bucks through Paypal. And I can't help but notice how you've ignored the majority of my arguments and tried to either change the subject of flame me to discredit me. It's the tactics of someone who's realized they're losing an argument.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

While a lot of Casuals have told me and others that we play the game "wrong", I have never told Casuals that they play the game the wrong way.

It also prevents people from "figuring the wrong things out". Because less knowledgable people might not be able to work out that Fox and Falco are the best characters in Melee (trust me, very few Casual players I've ever met figured it out on their own).

Yuna, you get so defensive. Pent up aggression much?

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Quote me a single post where I've told Casuals how to play the game. Casuals are free to play the game however they want. I've never told anyone how to play the game "the right way" since there are many ways to play it.

However, the Competitive Scene has worked out rules on how to play the game Competitively. If you want to play it Competitively, then you have to follow "our" rules.

While a lot of Casuals have told me and others that we play the game "wrong", I have never told Casuals that they play the game the wrong way.

Seriously, find me a quote where I say it and I'll give you 100 bucks through Paypal. And I can't help but notice how you've ignored the majority of my arguments and tried to either change the subject of flame me to discredit me. It's the tactics of someone who's realized they're losing an argument.

(trust me, very few Casual players I've ever met figured it out on their own).

Assuming you "educated" them.

While a lot of Casuals have told me and others that we play the game "wrong", I have never told Casuals that they play the game the wrong way.

I'm not telling you playing with the best characters is the wrong way to play, i think making a tier list THAT TELLS PEOPLE WHAT CHARACTERS TO PLAY. Is the problem....Guess you fail to see the irony.

Yuna, you get so defensive. Pent up aggression much?

Although it's totally in her right to get this angry about a videogame. It's still kind of sad. :\

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Actually, Yuna's just homosexual, not a her. He gets REALLY defensive if you use the wrong gender to describe.

 

[inl]

Brawl isn't special, its a game, like skipping rocks across the water. Do you want to make a tier list for that? How about we make all of our own opinionated tier lists for EVERYTHING, so we can force our opinions on EVERYONE ELSE? ...Do you have to suck the fun out of everything and make it a science fair project?

Actually, tier list isn't ALL opinion... I mean its not like "Oh man, did you see that? he can use fire; definitely top tier." It has to do with alot of factors, and im sure you know this. And as for the "science fair" comment, at competitive play, you wan't to know things like tier list, priority, lag time, start up time. and if you really do want to play for "fun" (Like competitive play is just 'work'¬_¬; Then ignore the tier list.

The point is, like it or not, there will be tiers. If you really don't like it, just don't make it your concern- that simple.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Actually, tier list isn't ALL opinion... I mean its not like "Oh man, did you see that? he can use fire; definitely top tier." It has to do with alot of factors, and im sure you know this. And as for the "science fair" comment, at competitive play, you wan't to know things like tier list, priority, lag time, start up time. and if you really do want to play for "fun" (Like competitive play is just 'work'¬_¬; Then ignore the tier list.

The point is, like it or not, there will be tiers. If you really don't like it, just don't make it your concern- that simple.

I know that it isn't all opinion. My concern is the emphasis players put on such things.
I can "ignore" the list all I want, but if I go to some tournaments for brawl and everyone is picking the same 3 characters, by god I will know the list.


I do learn lag time, priority and start up, but most of it i learned from picking a character and learning it....not printing out a data sheet and studying it for 3 years.

 

[Yuna]

Assuming you "educated" them.

That's not telling them how to play.

That's just telling what the tierlist is (if they ask or say "I think Roy is better than Marth!" or something, but then it's just correcting a mistakes). They are free to play however they want.

I'm not telling you playing with the best characters is the wrong way to play, i think making a tier list THAT TELLS PEOPLE WHAT CHARACTERS TO PLAY. Is the problem....Guess you fail to see the irony.

That's telling us what not to do. It's pretty much the same thing as telling us how to not play the game. The tierlist does not tell people how to play. It tells them how characters rank next to each other. People are free to make of this what they want.

Without the Tier list, some people will still play according to who they feel has the easiest way to victory! Not having a tierlist won't change that!

Although it's totally in her right to get this angry about a videogame. It's still kind of sad. :\

1) "By the way, I am a man."
2) Way to insult Competitive gamers everywhere. I'm also not angry. I'm saddened by how illogical you are.

I do learn lag time, priority and start up, but most of it i learned from picking a character and learning it....not printing out a data sheet and studying it for 3 years.

"People should figure out everything on their own"? Why try to discover everything on your own if you can easily read up on it? Why have schools at all if students can just read books and discover how science works on their own?

 

[Deleted member]

wow wtf is all these gamefaq nubs coming into swf saying sh*t like "wavedashing is a glitch" "tiers dont exist!" and the best one of all "brawl wont be competitive!!1111"


brawl is a new f*cking game, stfu and get over it

 

[MaximoSmasher]

That's not telling them how to play.

That's just telling what the tierlist is (if they ask or say "I think Roy is better than Marth!" or something, but then it's just correcting a mistakes). They are free to play however they want.

Well the way you put it, was pretty funny. I'm sure you don't go bossing casuals around, so don't get your panties in a knot.

That's telling us what not to do. It's pretty much the same thing as telling us how to not play the game. The tierlist does not tell people how to play. It tells them how characters rank next to each other. People are free to make of this what they want.

Playing the game and spreading information/misinformation are not the same thing. People are dumb and will overrate alot of things, you have the power to stop it before it starts, but I guess "winning" is the most important thing...right?

Without the Tier list, some people will still play according to who they feel has the easiest way to victory! Not having a tierlist won't change that!

And If Ike is on the top tier list, and everyday I play brawl online, and have to fight 97321896314965 Ikes I will blame YOU.

1) "By the way, I am a man."
2) Way to insult Competitive gamers everywhere. I'm also not angry. I'm saddened by how illogical you are.

A game is still a game even if it's competitive. I'm not against it, I'm against taking many things including games so seriously.

I couldn't figure out if your a man or woman, honestly.

"People should figure out everything on their own"? Why try to discover everything on your own if you can easily read up on it? Why have schools at all if students can just read books and discover how science works on their own?

Your metaphors REALLY suck. Stop using them.

With that ideal, Why not use steroids if they are legal? Because some things, like compition you should really EARN the right to compete, not just read a manual and then run around claiming your a "pro".

 

[inl]

I know that it isn't all opinion. My concern is the emphasis players put on such things.
I can "ignore" the list all I want, but if I go to some tournaments for brawl and everyone is picking the same 3 characters, by god I will know the list.


I do learn lag time, priority and start up, but most of it i learned from picking a character and learning it....not printing out a data sheet and studying it for 3 years.

Yeah, you can just pick your character and learn it. But see, some, and i mean some people like to look at list like that, they dont have the skill or time to put into finding out that stuff out, or simple cant decide who they want. People play to win. I don't care who says they play for "fun", sure you 're having fun playing, but you're playing to win. So why not have a tier list?

Melee had tier list, and I never saw everybody just playing Marth, Shiek, and Fox. Hell, I mained Pichu. Why, cause he was low tier; it gave me the challenge. So, tier list may influence people, but the tier list isnt primarily made to make people pick "the best" character. cause in the end, you'll pick who you want.

 

[KevinM]

I enjoy this thread, i like watching Maximo continue to fail.

Someone grab me popcorn.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Yeah, you can just pick your character and learn it. But see, some, and i mean some people like to look at list like that, they dont have the skill or time to put into finding out that stuff out, or simple cant decide who they want. People play to win. I don't care who says they play for "fun", sure you 're having fun playing, but you're playing to win. So why not have a tier list?

If someone doesn't have the skill or time, why would they be competitive?

Melee had tier list, and I never saw everybody just playing Marth, Shiek, and Fox. Hell, I mained Pichu. Why, cause he was low tier; it gave me the challenge. So, tier list may influence people, but the tier list isnt primarily made to make people pick "the best" character. cause in the end, you'll pick who you want.

Well I pick characters that are fun to play, you have a right to do it your way, but the majority of players will be influenced by a list, instead of playing. Don't you think?

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

And If Ike is on the top tier list, and everyday I play brawl online, and have to fight 97321896314965 Ikes I will blame YOU.

He's got a point with this one. Heck, friends of mine and myself are already bumping into WAY too many FINAL DESTINATION matches on Wifi with ANYONE.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Don't worry too much guys, I only offer my opinion on rare occasions. So I'll just go back to posting art only soon

Still I there are people who feel this way, and all I am doing is showing my support.

 

[BigRick]

lol you dudes are just mad cause theres so many noobs that got influenced by the elite?

just find friends (not too hard to find I hope?) that play the game with items and stuff like that... Maximo and Terrorcon you could just play each other and get over that ****

just tryin to help yall

 

[inl]

If someone doesn't have the skill or time, why would they be competitive?




Well I pick characters that are fun to play, you have a right to do it your way, but the majority of players will be influenced by a list, instead of playing. Don't you think?

You don't need to dedicate your life to consider yourself a competitive player. Ive played people in tourney's who are novice when it comes to smash, doesn't me they aren't playing competitively. since they ARE competing.

 

[shadydentist]

Well I pick characters that are fun to play, you have a right to do it your way, but the majority of players will be influenced by a list, instead of playing. Don't you think?

I'm absolutely positive this doesn't ever happen. Nobody gets influenced by a list *instead* of playing. What happens is that they try some characters, and find out that they win more with the higher tier ones.

People are just trying to be as good as they can be.
Is this such a bad thing?

 

[Deleted member]

-a tier will exist
-you will accept it
-you will stop crying
-if you have a main now, you wont change it to the char on the top of the tier list


thread is over, everybody go home

 

[Remian]

I didn't want the thread to come to this...Smash forums are so...

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

lol you dudes are just mad cause theres so many noobs that got influenced by the elite?

just find friends (not too hard to find I hope?) that play the game with items and stuff like that... Maximo and Terrorcon you could just play each other and get over that ****

just tryin to help yall

Oh ho, sneaky insult there.

I'm just saying that it's a little bit unsettling that the most casual of casual play is getting tournament trickle down. I never said I was mad.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

You don't need to dedicate your life to consider yourself a competitive player. Ive played people in tourney's who are novice when it comes to smash, doesn't me they aren't playing competitively. since they ARE competing.

I compete, but not to the point where I make playing the game into work...I just play it alot, and get good by playing with friends. Do you kind of see what I'm getting at?

People are just trying to be as good as they can be.
Is this such a bad thing?

No, I'm just worried I won't get to experience MOST people playing the whole roster to its potential. I feel as soon as a tier list is made, more people will spend less effort learning many characters, eventually making it so i play the same 4 characters over and over...which...kind of gets boring.

 

[inl]

He's got a point with this one. Heck, friends of mine and myself are already bumping into WAY too many FINAL DESTINATION matches on Wifi with ANYONE.

that probably cause, nobody wants lava hitting them or, levels flipping up-side down when there playing a match. Final D. is one of the few levels, that have no interruptions.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

that probably cause, nobody wants lava hitting them or, levels flipping up-side down when there playing a match. Final D. is one of the few levels, that have no interruptions.

From one extreme to the other. Whatever happened to "midway".

 

[inl]

This is never going to end...

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

It never ends. Welcome to Smashboards.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

that probably cause, nobody wants lava hitting them or, levels flipping up-side down when there playing a match. Final D. is one of the few levels, that have no interruptions.

I like suddenly adjusting to the enviroment. ( yes i play on final destination ) but I really enjoy stages to help shift the tide of the battle back and forth. Instead of a series of minor errors on each players part to do it.

But, I've said my stance. Now I'll be on my way.



(swear to god, about those 4 same characters happening over and over, I will come after you Yuna)

 

[inl]

Okay, so basically you like casual play, regardless, there will be tier; that will never change. So, complaining isn't gonna change that, so just stop?

 

[xelados]

I'm not sure about Maximo, but I understand where he's coming from and agree, to a point. Sure, tiers can exist all they want, and you can make a list, too. The way it's presented, however, is what convinces people to use different characters. SWF claims authority and thus whatever tier list this site publishes gets followed by hundreds of gamers. That's a hell of a lot of influence, and it takes a lot of spirit out of the game. Many people will take one look at the tier list and automatically start putting time into one of the top 5 characters. Why? Because SWF tells them that they win more often. I'm aware that research goes into it, but it doesn't make it right to publish it like it's law.

Before you go and defend the tier list writers, think about what happens when the tier list from Melee (and eventually Brawl) is challenged. People jump all over it and support the status quo. "SWF said X is better than Y, so it must be true. You're an idiot," etc.

That's the only thing that bugs me. If the difference in tiers is smaller here in Brawl than it was in Melee, then any tier list that gets published should include such a notice to really drive the point home.

Personally, I'd leave the tier crap to those who like to research priority, weight, frames, etc. If everyone plays the top characters, the competitive scene takes longer to flesh out because people are devoting their time and attention to only a fraction of the cast.

Why do you act so much like a victim, Yuna? It seems like you're just taking everything that Maximo said personally. You seem to be making competitive gaming out to be some sort of great thing. The idea is novel, but based on what I've seen in the personalities of competitive people, it's an aggressive, caustic atmosphere unfit for any normal person. I think the idea of winning at all costs is a sign of an inferiority complex, what with all the trash talking, personal challenges, and other behavior.

Summary: Make a tier list all you want, but put some consideration into your audience, especially if your word pulls a lot of weight in the community. It'll never happen, though. The same thing will happen to Brawl that happened to Melee; people will only play what SWF deems the best characters and leave the rest to die, even if Brawl turns out to be more balanced and tiers less important. I don't know about you, but that's what makes me not want to get competitive. The need to be right, blind following, and tempers are a total turn-off.

</$0.02>

 

[Deleted member]

That's a hell of a lot of influence, and it takes a lot of spirit out of the game. Many people will take one look at the tier list and automatically start putting time into one of the top 5 characters. Why? Because SWF tells them that they win more often.

T!mmy
T0mmy
Bombsoldier (G&W)
Jash
Taj (M2)
Gimpyfish

and thats just a few great bottom tier smashers, the tier list doesnt say that you will win, it says you have a greater chance of winning

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I'm not sure about Maximo, but I understand where he's coming from and agree, to a point. Sure, tiers can exist all they want, and you can make a list, too. The way it's presented, however, is what convinces people to use different characters. SWF claims authority and thus whatever tier list this site publishes gets followed by hundreds of gamers. That's a hell of a lot of influence, and it takes a lot of spirit out of the game. Many people will take one look at the tier list and automatically start putting time into one of the top 5 characters. Why? Because SWF tells them that they win more often. I'm aware that research goes into it, but it doesn't make it right to publish it like it's law.

Before you go and defend the tier list writers, think about what happens when the tier list from Melee (and eventually Brawl) is challenged. People jump all over it and support the status quo. "SWF said X is better than Y, so it must be true. You're an idiot," etc.

That's the only thing that bugs me. If the difference in tiers is smaller here in Brawl than it was in Melee, then any tier list that gets published should include such a notice to really drive the point home.

Personally, I'd leave the tier crap to those who like to research priority, weight, frames, etc. If everyone plays the top characters, the competitive scene takes longer to flesh out because people are devoting their time and attention to only a fraction of the cast.

Why do you act so much like a victim, Yuna? It seems like you're just taking everything that Maximo said personally. You seem to be making competitive gaming out to be some sort of great thing. The idea is novel, but based on what I've seen in the personalities of competitive people, it's an aggressive, caustic atmosphere unfit for any normal person. I think the idea of winning at all costs is a sign of an inferiority complex, what with all the trash talking, personal challenges, and other behavior.

Summary: Make a tier list all you want, but put some consideration into your audience, especially if your word pulls a lot of weight in the community. It'll never happen, though. The same thing will happen to Brawl that happened to Melee; people will only play what SWF deems the best characters and leave the rest to die, even if Brawl turns out to be more balanced and tiers less important. I don't know about you, but that's what makes me not want to get competitive. The need to be right, blind following, and tempers are a total turn-off.

</$0.02>

Thank you.
Really. You said it better than I could.

and thats just a few great bottom tier smashers, the tier list doesnt say that you will win, it says you have a greater chance of winning

Consider the audience, you think all massive amount of kids, and easily influenced people will REALLY understand the diffrence between "will" win, and "greater chance"?

 

[E P I C]

Because the game sux. But is fun....

 

[Sandwich]

Man Shoryuken never has all of this.

 

[quinn95]

Yeah i hate the fact of only some of the characters being used. and in brawl everyone should have an equal chance.

 

[Umby]

Consider the audience, you think all massive amount of kids, and easily influenced people will REALLY understand the diffrence between "will" win, and "greater chance"?

Doesn't matter, as "kids" don't generally try to look up tiers or advanced techniques anyway. This is true, for the most part in the Pokemon community, and can stay solid in the Smash community as well. Fact of the matter is, when it comes to competitive smashing, those who don't understand the analytical concept can fall short of doing well in tournaments. Aka, kids are not a legitimate factor in "considering the audience". Most of those guys are just playing with their local friends for fun. They aren't out to make appearances at out-of-state tournaments or MLG venues.

Come to think of it, you don't even need to consider the audience when making a tier list. What, bump up Kirby in the Melee tier list because people like playing with him?

And really, this argument that just EVERYONE will pick high tier is flawed. People are most willing to play whoever they're most comfortable with or whoever they like the most. Those that do understand that their character might not be the greatest, and the tier list is there to help them understand just how much they have to work if they want to win against most other people playing higher tier characters. This is coming from a Link main who prefers Roy over Marth.

Now let's take it into the case that the tier list generally "governs" every player's decision to choose a high tier character. Want to know why that would happen? Well let's look at the Melee tier. Let's take me, being a Link main, and match me up with some of the higher tier characters that I've played before.

Marth: Cuts through my projectiles, outspeeds me, screws up my recovery. Even if I managed to sweetspot the ledge, almost the only thing I can do is roll, in which he can read and Fsmash.

Fox: He can waveshine me of the edge and shinespike me to death if I can't stop his approach.

Falco: His lasers + my weight = immobilization.

Shiek: Can chaingrab me up to around 90%

Capt. Falcon: Can outrun me, combo me easier the most people, etc.

Jigglypuff: My projectiles can take better control of the match, but Jiggs' style of play cuts my KO potential down.

Hell, even Ganondorf has an advantage over Link, and this ***** carries a Boomerang around all day. Now keep in mind, Smash is a VERY competitive game. That means EVERYONE wants to win. If they keep losing, and find the reason is because their character is really just not as good as the other, they can do one of two things:

1) Get even better with their character.
2) Switch to a higher tier character.

Now, getting better with their low-tier character is plausible, and is a path I chose. However, there are only so many people that have gotten good with low-tier mains to even have a chance to beat higher tier consistently, like Skler, Neo, Germ, etc. Since the success rate with this path isn't very high for average players, there's a good chance that they'll attempt to learn how to play higher tier characters. Now, just because everyone flocks to Fox, does that mean there's going to be a lack of diversity in character usage? Hell no. Too many people, play the game, and the range of the tier list allows for a good number of characters to do well over all. Look at Ganondorf, for example. Sure, he has his disadvantages to most characters above him, but he gives enough trouble as a force to be reckoned with, and actually wins a good percentage against the characters above him. And he's only like 2 or 3 slots above Link.

And all of this says nothing about the fact that people pick up other low-tier characters for fun, like KDJ's Pichu or my subpar Roy. Meaning there's still alot of diversity in casual play.

And that even further says nothing about the fact that the majority of smashers are actually ignorant of SWF's existance, and will use certain characters with ignorance to what a tier list even is.

Yeah i hate the fact of only some of the characters being used. and in brawl everyone should have an equal chance.

Even if tiers no longer influenced how often certain characters are used, general popularity will still skew your "equal chance" theory.


</tl;dr>

 

[adumbrodeus]

For the overall conversation...

Stop just attempting to spread the flow of knowledge Maximo, if not here then somewhere else, Brawl is popular enough that it will spawn a tier list, and since the game itself already has the tiers pre-set (based on advantages and disadvantages) you're just attempting to stop the flow of knowledge, and failing.

Laughable really, information age in the US, talk about your doomed endeavors.

God, I hate competitive Smash so much sometimes.

Don't mind Yuna. He's just a really elaborate troll.

Ummm... stop flaming and try adding something to the discussion...

 

[Yuna]

Playing the game and spreading information/misinformation are not the same thing. People are dumb and will overrate alot of things, you have the power to stop it before it starts, but I guess "winning" is the most important thing...right?

Why spread any information at all?! Somewhere someone will use it the "wrong" way. We should close down Smashboards at once!

And If Ike is on the top tier list, and everyday I play brawl online, and have to fight 97321896314965 Ikes I will blame YOU.

I tire of this.

A game is still a game even if it's competitive. I'm not against it, I'm against taking many things including games so seriously.

Why is a game different from a sport? Because sports take place outdoors? Welcome to Chess. Because sports have more prestige? Hello, cleaning ladies without whom your schools and offices would smell like crap and look like crap.

Why are you even on a forum dedicated to a videogame if your video of videogames is so low?

I couldn't figure out if your a man or woman, honestly.

Because so many people make it obvious which gender they belong to based on what they say? I don't know what you are, I don't care.

Your metaphors REALLY suck. Stop using them.

Umm... metaphors? It's simply summarizing what you're saying. And I doubt anyone's gonna contest my interpretations of what you're saying.

With that ideal, Why not use steroids if they are legal? Because some things, like compition you should really EARN the right to compete, not just read a manual and then run around claiming your a "pro".

Wow, are you even listening to yourself? Do you think all pro athletes do everything on their own? That they started out knowing nothing and figured it all out themselves? No, you nutbag! They have coaches and books and online homepages to teach them what the best way to go about what they do is!

I enjoy this thread, i like watching Maximo continue to fail.

Someone grab me popcorn.

Here! *throws you a bag of popcorn*

If someone doesn't have the skill or time, why would they be competitive?

It does not require skill to discover techniques or what character's better on your own. It just takes a lot of time. Why should someone spend maybe years discovering something they could get an answer two by 5 minutes of browsing on SWF?

And why should it even be a requirement?! When was the last time you heard a rocket scientist say "I never went to school. Nobody ever taught me anything. I've never read a book. I just figured it all out on my own!"

Well I pick characters that are fun to play, you have a right to do it your way, but the majority of players will be influenced by a list, instead of playing. Don't you think?

So do I. So do most people. People also have a right to be influenced by the tier list. Who are you to tell them what they cannot do?

Still I there are people who feel this way, and all I am doing is showing my support.

You're hardly just showing your support. You're practically dictating what you feel should be universal law.

I compete, but not to the point where I make playing the game into work...I just play it alot, and get good by playing with friends. Do you kind of see what I'm getting at?

There you go again insulting Competitive Smashers (and gamers in general, I believe).

No, I'm just worried I won't get to experience MOST people playing the whole roster to its potential. I feel as soon as a tier list is made, more people will spend less effort learning many characters, eventually making it so i play the same 4 characters over and over...which...kind of gets boring.

Consider the audience, you think all massive amount of kids, and easily influenced people will REALLY understand the diffrence between "will" win, and "greater chance"?

Yes, because so many of the "kids" playing Smash actually go onto SWF to find out what the ATs and what the Tier List are. And so many of the skilled Smashers will play 2 minute FFA's online with you. The majority of the people who play With Anyone will play random characters (or ***** the "cool" ones, I guess, like Snake and Sonic).

And why must we govern our conduct according to what idiots do and don't do? "You can't do this because some idiots are going to misunderstand! Wah wah wah!".

Well some idiots are going to watch an action movie and think it's OK to kill people. Or maybe it's from playing fighting games! GASP! B4N SSBB NAO!

The world is and should not be governed by idiots. Everything in the world does not have to be made idiotproof.

I like suddenly adjusting to the enviroment. ( yes i play on final destination ) but I really enjoy stages to help shift the tide of the battle back and forth. Instead of a series of minor errors on each players part to do it.

You do. We don't. Live and let live.

(swear to god, about those 4 same characters happening over and over, I will come after you Yuna)

Swear to god, Maximum Tomato, I don't care.

Man Shoryuken never has all of this.

It's times like these that I wish we had draconian moderation like on some forums. Heck, even quasi-draconian will do.