Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

[#HBC | Gorf]

yea just saw it. super big oof right there ngl

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

If you are gonna do another wall at least then bring up specific posts from that slot then.

I never do that, mostly because I like getting the bigger picture and because I'm lazy. Shameless self-meta.


Spak -

I don't understand why he's being looked at. Refer back to what I said in my huge wall (if you read it) if you're not clear on my stance about this. Gorf's interpretation is solid, but I disagree with it because of the context that I have given about the gamestate. Spak doesn't fit the bill here, and I don't know what's inherently scummy about him either? When I see opinions about him, they are often made in the context of Me/Lore, moreso how he has reacted to both of us. Fanny, you said I'm playing reactionary (and this is not to shove it in your face) but wouldn't you say your way of reading Spak inherently is reactionary as well due to his stances on Me/Lore? If I may interject about this as well, if Spak/Lore are both scum here (which is something I'm hearing a lot), their acting early on is reminiscent to really bad porn acting. Not in a scum way, more like two townies who awkwardly were trying to do the same exact thing (which was to end RVS) and ended up meeting halfway about it. When it comes to the rest of what he's done, I'd say it's about 50 explaining himself/defending and then 50 pursuing his reads like Pythag. Is there any other context surrounding him besides circumstance to be scumread outside of what I described? I'm not getting the full picture, but my memory fails me about what Gorf said as I don't think it was all circumstantial. I attribute tone into my reads heavily and I don't think the tone he's presented is easily faked either, which is why I mentioned he left gracefully wrt Spak/Lore. Not the play unless you are looking at this game like setting up a bunch of bowling pins and knocking them down. What I mean by this is that I get a feeling people are less interested in the idea of Spak possibly being town and just stubbornly wanting to have a lynch decide for them. Town lean.

Lore -

This slot is confusing, I settled on him once myself but I think I was probably just pissed and all bothered with my own biases. I think if I read Lore individually, like on a content given level? I'd probably still scumread him because he is so quick to defend himself and then make half-hearted accusations for someone reaching (see: reaching is not always something you disagree with). It's probably a case of too scum to be scum, and I dunno why people feel it's not. I get it kinda, I get that if it quacks it must be a duck, but if I'm wrong about this he's just going to keep playing the way he has because there are certain players who are attributing his style as town, so trying to read him on provisional outbursts is faulty, rather I'm reading him on what's going on right now and he hit fits in all of it. Not the play.

Gorf -

Gorf's playing a solid tonal game, stop me if you've heard that one before. I think Gorf's push on Spak is misguided but does not fit with what I assume is the scope of scum right now. Gorf's first post about not needing to fake **** just felt like a sigh of relief on his end, and I imagine with his past success in the last game he would be more than happy to push the same kind of style before. I skimmed last game a bit but you could definitely tell Gorf was more interested in discussing the nuances of play instead of like, actually playing. Gorf's been getting into it and getting dirty for a change, and with the current state I'm more than happy to townread him because of it. This read is a bit more reliant on meta than the others, but with a game that has been so how do you say? Railroaded? I have to rely on it more because even if Gorf was scum here he doesn't have to do ****. Not the play. Gut town.

Ranmaru -

His new style is annoying, I talked about this before many times before. I still stand it's not that scummy however and I think he is literally falling into the traps being set by scum right now like he usually does. Sorry bro, but you're easily influenced and Irecall X-site where you townread me for a bunch of bull**** that happened to agree with you. We fight more often when we're same alignment, but that's not entirely why I'm townreading you. I refer back to what I said about Ran before in that him stepping back and this playstyle is less about being safe and more about being...helpful. Ran believes his own posts can be a detriment, but even through this veil you can see that he still has a knack to be genuine. I don't doubt his thoughts on Lore, even if I disagree with them. I think if Ran (or scum) do not benefit by pivoting in the way he did so dramatically, because if both Me/Lore are a mislynch there's no need to be choosy. I think my Ran read is probably the most confident I am in this list honestly, and maybe yeah lot of it seems superlative and more like muh feelings but Ran is a feelsy player so reading him on that is usually good! Not the play. Town-lean.

--

Town reads end here. I thought about slotting Frozen in there too but I'm not confident on him entirely. Null coming next.

 

[Tom]

This version of soup is 100x better than the other version

 

[ranmaru]

He is still scum though. He could have done that without the explosion.

 

[ranmaru]

I mean he cared to go into town leans rather than Pythag, who is he voting.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

hey ran remember when i said i liked you more when you were quiet? yea plz and ty

 

[Tom]

I imagine he is going to continue into null reads and end with scum reads, burying the lede like any cutie would

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

this is in dedication to my boy soup, get those reads out brother

 

[#HBC | marshy]

This version of soup is 100x better than the other version

just think of how lit its gonna b when we get scumread boi

 

[#HBC | marshy]

this reminds me of when a top smasher drops a tier list only for everyone to argue about it after the fact

 

[#HBC | Kary]

1 i look for outliers when hunting scum. townies tend to react to things in similar ways. most of the players were focused on lore or soup to an extent, then spak came in and said he didnt find much of soups posts scummy and talked about some meta with lore that gave him doubt with regard to lore being scum. so it made me wonder if he was scum who knew both were town cuz it was hard seeing a townie handwave those two so easily. its like last game when i made my big post at the start, no one gave a ****, except doop who acted differently (and i guess mavens vote but even his was different from doop). so his upside in doing this as scum is keeping his hands clean of the lore/soup thing while just letting town dogpile them. stuff like that can come from a scum mindset cuz some scum feel the need to make unique pushes that most of the town arent really feeling or paying attention to

2 i think its reasonable. like i said i havent been the biggest fan of spak so i dont mind gorf pushing there and it started a wagon. gorfs been poking at both lore and soup in a way that spak hasnt so i dont see him avoiding lore/soup. like yeah he didnt vote them or call them scum but reading his posts i can tell hes taking them into consideration cuz he has pointed out things he takes issues with that could lead to discussion

3 scum hunt prs. when soup claimed my thought just went to 'well if hes town hes outed, scum prolly kill him' cuz that role is strong. i agree theres leeway for scum to fakeclaim now that weve had time to think things thru but that was my reaction in the moment. i just had the thought i listed out on my mind as opposed to 'well okay, were in a semi open, and theres multiple power roles, so maybe scum can do x y z, blah blah blah'

youre welcome xoxo

1. Ya this all makes sense, but do you really think a scum Spak would see a TvT Lore/Soup happening and decide to avoid it completely? "Keeping his hands clean" seems like such a weak upside.

2. hmm okay

3. So your gut reaction to soup's claim was you thought it was legit?

 

[ranmaru]

Finally FrozenFlame is here.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

1. Ya this all makes sense, but do you really think a scum Spak would see a TvT Lore/Soup happening and decide to avoid it completely? "Keeping his hands clean" seems like such a weak upside.

I'll respond to this after him.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Here are people I'm more null on. I might not be able to talk as much about them but I think their spot matters. Anyone complaining about my walls btw -- I don't like doing these but I haven't been able to spread out my opinions as much as I want to; I guess I'm J this game.


Tom -

Tom has probably been the most patient with me and he didn't deserve to have me yell in his face. I think a lot of my frustration was kinda like, he just happened to be there so he got it. My trouble with reading Tom is the frustration I have though, I dunno where his head lies entirely. I get he's cool with lynching Spak/Me/Lore but I don't know to what end. Different play styles reap different results, but I guess I don't know what type of player Tom is. Is he more in lieu of Ryker who baits reactions? I don't know if that fits the description because he seems willing to give his opinion, albeit sparingly. That hesitance to fully get involved is why he's null. Null-town.

Kevin -

Maybe close to Tom but I do have varied experience with Kevin and I think the best way to catch him as scum is his voting patterns. Kevin won't waver and he probably knows himself exceedingly well, there are bits and pieces I'm kinda ??? at and I guess a little bit this segues with Tom too but didn't you say Tom you dislike when people just call themselves town? I get Kevin is Kevin but perhaps he'd be doing it more periodically to get on your side? I'd probably trust you the most on this Kevin read and guess what? I'm interested in hearing more about it, otherwise just sitting null for me. I know what I said about you two and the fact you're both on me, and maybe you're both swagging me but I have no basis for that and I'm not willing to stake my read on that. Null.

Ryker -

Kevin/Tom are kind of a duo but then you have Ryker who will play frustratingly null regardless of alignment. I think that plays to this advantage as scum and what's kinda funny about these 3 listed is that I get a feeling they know themselves really well. I can't tell if he's pissed about me almost hammering him or just trying to do that bait crap he does. I would say 'talk to me u ****' but everytime he does it's like with a holier than thou approach that both pisses me off and makes me think he knows exactly what he's doing. I think the key of catching Ryker here especially in this game is if everything he's done just leads to nothing. Showboating and thread flexing, being blunt, whatever. Those are things that exude confidence but my question to you or perhaps my rebuttal is that your confidence is misplayed, and if you really wanna read me I've been here this whole time. ******. Null.

I get these are nulls, but I think I have the capability to be wrong on them. There's a lot of ways I could consider this: Kevin/Tom are fake sucking up to each other to be townread and just coast on bad wagons. Ryker is playing off the negative energy of the town to make himself look better. I don't want to sold on either and I'd much rather for them to respond to these individually and then we can actually talk like proper gentlemen.

Frozen -

I leave Frozen off here because I think he was close to a townread but felt I was being preemptive. My reasons aren't nearly as detailed either. He came into the game with white hot fire and seemed really keyed up. I liked it. What more do you want from me? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[#HBC | marshy]

1. Ya this all makes sense, but do you really think a scum Spak would see a TvT Lore/Soup happening and decide to avoid it completely? "Keeping his hands clean" seems like such a weak upside.

2. hmm okay

3. So your gut reaction to soup's claim was you thought it was legit?

1 its a possibility. another option is that one of them (or both if were really lucky but prolly not) and he could avoid commenting altogether for the time being

2 k

3 it was more 'oh ****, he claimed pr. if hes town, he prolly dies cuz its strong.' it gave me pause and i sat on it. then the thread devolved and things played out

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Frozen -

I leave Frozen off here because I think he was close to a townread but felt I was being preemptive. My reasons aren't nearly as detailed either. He came into the game with white hot fire and seemed really keyed up. I liked it. What more do you want from me? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

what gave you the impression that frozens entrance was hot fire? whatd you like so much about it?

 

[Fandangox]

Fanny, you said I'm playing reactionary (and this is not to shove it in your face) but wouldn't you say your way of reading Spak inherently is reactionary as well due to his stances on Me/Lore?

What read of spak have I brought up before? Aside from having to clear Pythag's misunderstanding of why I was pushing Pythag.

Lore -
This slot is confusing, I settled on him once myself but I think I was probably just pissed and all bothered with my own biases. I think if I read Lore individually, like on a content given level? I'd probably still scumread him because he is so quick to defend himself and then make half-hearted accusations for someone reaching (see: reaching is not always something you disagree with). It's probably a case of too scum to be scum, and I dunno why people feel it's not. I get it kinda, I get that if it quacks it must be a duck, but if I'm wrong about this he's just going to keep playing the way he has because there are certain players who are attributing his style as town, so trying to read him on provisional outbursts is faulty, rather I'm reading him on what's going on right now and he hit fits in all of it. Not the play.

So you are town reading the slot, because of other players' meta and because he is, in your own words, too scum to be scum.

Ok.

What type of scumhunting intent have you seen from Lore? Give me specific examples.

Ranmaru -

His new style is annoying, I talked about this before many times before. I still stand it's not that scummy however and I think he is literally falling into the traps being set by scum right now like he usually does. Sorry bro, but you're easily influenced and Irecall X-site where you townread me for a bunch of bull**** that happened to agree with you. We fight more often when we're same alignment, but that's not entirely why I'm townreading you. I refer back to what I said about Ran before in that him stepping back and this playstyle is less about being safe and more about being...helpful. Ran believes his own posts can be a detriment, but even through this veil you can see that he still has a knack to be genuine. I don't doubt his thoughts on Lore, even if I disagree with them. I think if Ran (or scum) do not benefit by pivoting in the way he did so dramatically, because if both Me/Lore are a mislynch there's no need to be choosy. I think my Ran read is probably the most confident I am in this list honestly, and maybe yeah lot of it seems superlative and more like muh feelings but Ran is a feelsy player so reading him on that is usually good! Not the play. Town-lean.

What do you think of Ran's reasoning for you and Lore being scumbuddies.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Are you still with me? No? I forgot Fanny but it's probably just 'dunno lol'.

The time has come for my scumreads. I'm like honestly laughing that for some reason some of you have been anticipating them like some holy decree.

Kary -

Call it OMGUS, Call it '**** you', whatever. Do not like Kary's play this game at the slightest. I think Kary plays close to how Ryker plays, but where I give Ryker null and I give Kary scum is that Kary tries to subtle and it backfires. Ryker is unabashedly Ryker while Kary as scum will just be really snide and pretend he knows better than everyone else while failing to explain it. Separate from this however I think Kary's behavior is closest to scum, especially how I'm reading the game. Context matters, it's why I gave it, and he plays closest to how I feel this game is being directed. He picked something easy to hop on and all he has to do is feign ignorance. I probably would be falling for it too had it not be on me. What has Kary done besides mildly interject, make some snide remark, and then continue to keep his vote on me? I don't think the idea of town is that you're self-assured to the point where you never need to answer for your own actions, so the stage is set for you Kary now that I've revealed my hand to reveal yours. Scum.

Marshy -

Weird vibes this whole game and still have them. Marshy tries to play close to the nulls I mentioned but I think his playstyle has developed from his time away. I think it's made him more definable but also that is a downfall because his cracks are more easily shown. I remember before the game Marshy was trying to say he was gonna swag out yet he's been writing paragraphs and whatnot, and something I know about marshy is that he doesn't like wasting space in his posts. He sees necessity in things and doesn't get too entangled on the what ifs, it's either this way or that way. Marshy's genuine insight and ability to see the right thing at first glance is a huge boon, but I don't think he's really seeing anything or even has much focus. You could argue his focus is Lore, but if that was his focus, perhaps he'd be looking into the people who have interacted with Lore or even prodding them more, but instead he hopped onto me because I had a so-so bad wagon and that just like defeats the purpose for him seemingly 'ballin out' on Lore in the first place. I've been kinda skimming a few of his posts but I have to stop and think if they like, mean anything. When marshy is town, it's obvious what he wants and he goes out to get it. Right here? I'm not as certain, and I get the vibe he's definitely a huge possibility for that whole 'playing with their food' symbolism I was trying to give earlier. Thunderdome bro? Scum-lean.

Pythag -

The man himself I'm voting. My reasons honestly aren't that fleshed out other than I think his sidestepping and impartial takes on the whole game is troubling. When Spak/Lore got into what they did, Pythag took the wiser choice, but I think the wiser choice here is..concerning. Think about how everyone else reacted to Spak/Lore, and where the wagons are now. You ever get the feeling someone knows more than they lead on? That is most definitely Pythag. I think that Spak/Lore interaction is not as telling as people take it as, and where I feel people are going wrong is not how Spak/Lore acted there rather the ensuing reactions to it. Call it a hunch, call it some kind of gut but Pythag feels more fitting than Fanny for example (not entirely comparing) as a scum mate who just wants nothing to do with the thread.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

1. Ya this all makes sense, but do you really think a scum Spak would see a TvT Lore/Soup happening and decide to avoid it completely? "Keeping his hands clean" seems like such a weak upside.

Iirc, didn't he actually interact with both wagons. Concluding that Soup looked fine and Lore was less likely to flip scum than people thought.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So, Pythag has weak reasoning. "Call it a hunch," but that's where you're voting instead of Kary or Marshy?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

What type of scumhunting intent have you seen from Lore? Give me specific examples.

Lore is a reactionary player, his idea of scumhunting is not similar to you or even me. Lore scumhunts by interaction, and quite frankly, when he's scum he sucks at faking it. I think what tips me the off most about this is the very thing people are hard on him for, which the hypothetical shooting he gave to Pythag. I really see that less as scum trying to fake content and more like town trying something different. As for other instances? His self-assured responses to me. I don't think Lore is a type of person who likes to be wrong when they're town, but the idea of being wrong means they never waiver. I say this outside of Lore as a player entirely that I don't see scum thinking it's a good idea to double-down on say, a vote on me. I think there's some weird spots yes, but I think that he would be I dunno, more obviously conscious about it.

What do you think of Ran's reasoning for you and Lore being scumbuddies.

He's just being Ran. Ran follows dead ends all the time but he's harmless.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

So, Pythag has weak reasoning. "Call it a hunch," but that's where you're voting instead of Kary or Marshy?

It looks weak but my gut says it's not. Kary is harder to sell as is Marshy for obvious reasons.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Just caught up pages 11-17, only skimmed the last few pages because I'm low on time on my lunch break

I buy soups claim, comes off as kneejerk dumbass frustrated townie **** but I get where people are coming from saying hes floundering scum. I still say we give him a night to try to get us something and see what he can provide. Obv if he comes back RB'd or other useless **** then we take a good hard look at that lynch D2

Haven't been able to process everyone else's content too well given my rush in reading. Gonna try to go thru it all again tonight and see how these developments affect my current reads. But yeah the short version is I dont think soup is the play here, def go with theory here and wait and see

If people have specific questions just @ me and I'll try to get you something on mobile while Im at work, otherwise expect some more from me later tonight

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

#HBC | ѕoup

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ninja'd

10char

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It looks weak but my gut says it's not. Kary is harder to sell as is Marshy for obvious reasons.

Bro, you're so deep in the **** that "hard to sell" doesn't mean ****. You're going to have to climb Everest to get out of this pit. I don't like the weak take here when you've just outlined that you think the slot is more likely to be scum than Pythag.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Just caught up pages 11-17, only skimmed the last few pages because I'm low on time on my lunch break

I buy soups claim, comes off as kneejerk ******* frustrated townie **** but I get where people are coming from saying hes floundering scum. I still say we give him a night to try to get us something and see what he can provide. Obv if he comes back RB'd or other useless **** then we take a good hard look at that lynch D2

Haven't been able to process everyone else's content too well given my rush in reading. Gonna try to go thru it all again tonight and see how these developments affect my current reads. But yeah the short version is I dont think soup is the play here, def go with theory here and wait and see

If people have specific questions just @ me and I'll try to get you something on mobile while Im at work, otherwise expect some more from me later tonight

If you like Soup, how do you feel about those wagonning Soup?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Bro, you're so deep in the **** that "hard to sell" doesn't mean ****. You're going to have to climb Everest to get out of this pit. I don't like the weak take here when you've just outlined that you think the slot is more likely to be scum than Pythag.

I don't do detailed quote by quote, I follow off my instinct and fit things in-between that makes sense. If it's a matter of disagreement now that I've laid out all my thoughts, now would be the time to tell me what and why you disagree.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

EBWOP:

Do you really think me and me alone could get marshy/Kary lynched? That's just like, not even possible. By all means, put some PRs on them (I already said I wanna oracle Kary) but Pythag is more reasonable, it's about priority sometimes too.

 

[Fandangox]

Kary -

Call it OMGUS, Call it '**** you', whatever. Do not like Kary's play this game at the slightest. I think Kary plays close to how Ryker plays, but where I give Ryker null and I give Kary scum is that Kary tries to subtle and it backfires. Ryker is unabashedly Ryker while Kary as scum will just be really snide and pretend he knows better than everyone else while failing to explain it. Separate from this however I think Kary's behavior is closest to scum, especially how I'm reading the game. Context matters, it's why I gave it, and he plays closest to how I feel this game is being directed. He picked something easy to hop on and all he has to do is feign ignorance. I probably would be falling for it too had it not be on me. What has Kary done besides mildly interject, make some snide remark, and then continue to keep his vote on me? I don't think the idea of town is that you're self-assured to the point where you never need to answer for your own actions, so the stage is set for you Kary now that I've revealed my hand to reveal yours. Scum.
.

I don't think Kary is playing that much different from Revival of Dgames mafia where they replaced Ryker. They were town. Like to mind, Kary's post where they point out Tom's contradiction on wanting to lynch spak or not makes me townread the slot at the moment. Sure, anyone can point contradictions, but one that specifically made see Kary was at least re-reading the thread, trying to poke other poster's on questions they didn't initiate themselves, which shows to me scumhunting intent.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I don't think Kary is playing that much different from Revival of Dgames mafia where they replaced Ryker. They were town. Like to mind, Kary's post where they point out Tom's contradiction on wanting to lynch spak or not makes me townread the slot at the moment. Sure, anyone can point contradictions, but one that specifically made see Kary was at least re-reading the thread, trying to poke other poster's on questions they didn't initiate themselves, which shows to me scumhunting intent.

Can I ask you if your Kary townread is biased because you think the direction of the thread is right? That is the crux of my argument, in which I think it's all wrong. What do you think of my other scumreads?

 

[Fandangox]

Lore is a reactionary player, his idea of scumhunting is not similar to you or even me. Lore scumhunts by interaction, and quite frankly, when he's scum he sucks at faking it. I think what tips me the off most about this is the very thing people are hard on him for, which the hypothetical shooting he gave to Pythag. I really see that less as scum trying to fake content and more like town trying something different. As for other instances? His self-assured responses to me. I don't think Lore is a type of person who likes to be wrong when they're town, but the idea of being wrong means they never waiver. I say this outside of Lore as a player entirely that I don't see scum thinking it's a good idea to double-down on say, a vote on me. I think there's some weird spots yes, but I think that he would be I dunno, more obviously conscious about it.

I think this relies too much on meta for my taste, can you please show me at least two specific posts that made you townread/townlean the slot.

He's just being Ran. Ran follows dead ends all the time but he's harmless.

Ok, but you disagree right? Can you tell me why do you disagree with their reasoning?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I think this relies too much on meta for my taste, can you please show me at least two specific posts that made you townread/townlean the slot.

I rely on tone/meta and then I fill the blanks based on how the thread is going. I am a player who looks into intent and ulterior motives. You can interpret this however you want.

Ok, but you disagree right? Can you tell me why do you disagree with their reasoning?

It's...all right there man. I know it's trouble, but in my walls I described why I dislike the gamestate or think it's wrong.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

dont like how soup implies im lazily hopping his wagon like i wasnt trying to draw out responses from him then voted him when i got fed up with his ate bull**** last night. i would blame no one for voting soup after his debacle let alone right in the middle of it

feels like hes just taking a **** on his wagoners

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

EBWOP: I rely on tone/meta and then I fill the blanks based on how the thread is going. I am a player who looks into intent and ulterior motives. You can interpret this however you want.

Here I'll even quote the tidbit for you:

I think what has me most puzzled is the fact people have been one of Lore/Spak should be scum, but this just confuses me. I don't feel scum have felt anything close to pressure right now and correct me if I'm wrong-- there's not many powerwolves in DGames. I think the typical norm and the reason town loses so much is that in-fighting happens and all scum has to do is write agreeable posts. This can be attributed to how people felt about Gorf in the last game, to which he admitted to the same effect.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

itt

no one whos voting soup is town

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

dont like how soup implies im lazily hopping his wagon like i wasnt trying to draw out responses from him then voted him when i got fed up with his ate bull**** last night. i would blame no one for voting soup after his debacle let alone right in the middle of it

feels like hes just taking a **** on his wagoners

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure you just responded in antagonistic way when I was already pissed off. I also don't understand how you said I'm only taking a **** on my wagoners, given 3 of them are slotted as null lol

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

itt

no one whos voting soup is town

Nah, I think Tom has a chance to be town, as does Ryker/Kevin. They're just harder to define and again, one of them has equity to be scum eating up this false directive

 

[Fandangox]

Can I ask you if your Kary townread is biased because you think the direction of the thread is right? That is the crux of my argument, in which I think it's all wrong. What do you think of my other scumreads?

I do not understand how my reasoning for townreading Kary could have been any more clearer in that post. It's little to do with the direction of the thread, I just saw Kary had scumhunting intent, that's all.

I'd say Pythag is the scumlean/read I'd agree with you on, but your reasonings kind of lack substance.

Has Marshy played like this as town before?