Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

[Fandangox]

Nah, I think Tom has a chance to be town, as does Ryker/Kevin. They're just harder to define and again, one of them has equity to be scum eating up this false directive

Am I scum, or town?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I do not understand how my reasoning for townreading Kary could have been any more clearer in that post. It's little to do with the direction of the thread, I just saw Kary had scumhunting intent, that's all.

I'd say Pythag is the scumlean/read I'd agree with you on, but your reasonings kind of lack substance.

Has Marshy played like this as town before?

I glanced over that opinion about the contradiction, but what does it say about Tom for Kary calling it out? Like..did it make you dislike Tom more cause of it? I'm honestly more interested in sorting out my nulls than my scumreads because yes as marshy obnoxiously points out two of them are on me right now.

I understand it lacks concrete, hard proof. I think the timing and necessity of his posts are telling, and if you want I can try to articulate what I mean by this.

Has marshy played like this before as town? I think he's more consistent, not shifting styles from ball out to wall out if that makes sense.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Am I scum, or town?

I like you interacting with me honestly, maybe it's your way of neutrality but I'm not pinged by it. I wouldn't vote you anytime soon.

 

[Fandangox]

It's...all right there man. I know it's trouble, but in my walls I described why I dislike the gamestate or think it's wrong.

A reason for why you disagree with Ran is not really stated there. And as for Lore, sure, but there's a reason why I want you to bring at least 2 posts that make you townread the slot, and expand on why.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

A reason for why you disagree with Ran is not really stated there. And as for Lore, sure, but there's a reason why I want you to bring at least 2 posts that make you townread the slot, and expand on why.

I feel like it is but maybe you don't see it. I think this is a matter of perspective and disagreeing on it. Can I ask why specifics are so important to you and why my word can't be a bond?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure you just responded in antagonistic way when I was already pissed off. I also don't understand how you said I'm only taking a **** on my wagoners, given 3 of them are slotted as null lol

i gave you **** but i did ask you to contribute. i appreciate the effort here lately but whyd it take this long for it?

2/3 of your scumreads are wagoners and you listed the others mostly as null. makes me wonder if youre actually trying to solve the ppl on you

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i gave you **** but i did ask you to contribute. i appreciate the effort here lately but whyd it take this long for it?

2/3 of your scumreads are wagoners and you listed the others mostly as null. makes me wonder if youre actually trying to solve the ppl on you

I think there's plenty of solve or attempt to, but hey I'm biased.

Because I didn't want to play like this, I don't enjoy being in the spotlight as much as it seems like I do. I like popping in and saying something that I feel others are neglecting. I don't see how you have problem with my 2/3 scumreads being wagoners when everything I described about gamestate plays into it. Obviously you disagree because youre going to regardless of alignment, but let's assume despite your own judgment we are both town here. Why is my perspective on the wagons wrong, and if I'm falsely accusing you two, then where else? Your only other thought is Lore and I want to see how this ties in with me.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I don't understand why he's being looked at. Refer back to what I said in my huge wall (if you read it) if you're not clear on my stance about this. Gorf's interpretation is solid, but I disagree with it because of the context that I have given about the gamestate. Spak doesn't fit the bill here, and I don't know what's inherently scummy about him either?

so from what i gathered, your view of the gamestate, in short, is that the general overcentralization of you and lore has caused a majority of town to choose sides between you two, and that scum are riding that momentum and just blending in with that direction. therefore, you give credence to the notion that players not primarily involving themselves with yall arent doing the best sort of scum play, therefore are less likely scum. if im wrong feel free to correct this because that interpretation is what is motivating my rebuttal here.

its usually pretty ballsy/foolish for all of scum to be in the same area and have the same direction. i do think theres good reason to take the pool of ryker/marshy/tom/kevin/kary (the pool you listed as being unsure why theyre being townread) into consideration based on your interpretation of the gamestate, because as a whole, they all fall into that. the problem is, your back and forth with lore was INCREDIBLY overcentralizing, to the point where its admittedly difficult for anyone to make branching paths. for example one of the reasons i feel good about someone like kary, at least for now, is because of initiative ive seen from him to put focus elsewhere while still keeping me up to date with his take on the whole ordeal. but thats tough to do.

when in a scumteam, being close to your scummates in thread is not comfortable. last game, mac and i strongarmed town by taking two very different sides of D1 and D2 but playing solid town games, only interacting with eachother enough and primarily bussing different scummates (me with doop, him with jtb). we actively involved ourselves with differing topics in the thread. because its ****ing uncomfortable being close to your scummates.

orange said that he doesnt read either of you as scum, and iirc it took him a bit after coming back with that to finally put a push in on pythag. if you v lore was tvt, him defending you two gives him a decent looking paper trail for when one of you two inevitably flip at the end of the Day (because at that point in the game, theres a strong chance one of you two were getting lynched). but better yet, he avoids a BAD paper trail upon either of your town flips.

plus, if he has mates involving themselves in that wagon, he has motivation to steer away from his scummates and scum around within a different part of the game. scum dont like being next to eachother if they can help it. that, on top of the fact that his reasonings for townreading you and lore are shallow and phoned in reasons, tells me that his means of backing off the lore + soup situation can be there to keep his hands really clean upon either of, or both of, your flips.

When I see opinions about him, they are often made in the context of Me/Lore, moreso how he has reacted to both of us. Fanny, you said I'm playing reactionary (and this is not to shove it in your face) but wouldn't you say your way of reading Spak inherently is reactionary as well due to his stances on Me/Lore? If I may interject about this as well, if Spak/Lore are both scum here (which is something I'm hearing a lot), their acting early on is reminiscent to really bad porn acting. Not in a scum way, more like two townies who awkwardly were trying to do the same exact thing (which was to end RVS) and ended up meeting halfway about it. When it comes to the rest of what he's done, I'd say it's about 50 explaining himself/defending and then 50 pursuing his reads like Pythag. Is there any other context surrounding him besides circumstance to be scumread outside of what I described?

i look at the beginning of the game and i just think its awkward. i think it can be any combination of t's and s's, but the fact stands that spak's initial coming onto lore after tom is a spitting image of doop coming onto marshy after maven from last game, and spak took the initiative to backpedal from it when he saw he was getting pushback from it. remember what i said about scum not wanting to be around their mates? that doesnt quite apply as strongly at the VERY beginning of the game (which it pretty much was at the time) because the games just starting and the mood is generally more casual. but then they do the dance, they back off from eachother, and they pretty much dont interact for the rest of the game. again, im not sitting here saying svs. im sitting here saying their early game interaction doesnt really have a strong pull for alignment in any which way.

I'm not getting the full picture, but my memory fails me about what Gorf said as I don't think it was all circumstantial. I attribute tone into my reads heavily and I don't think the tone he's presented is easily faked either, which is why I mentioned he left gracefully wrt Spak/Lore. Not the play unless you are looking at this game like setting up a bunch of bowling pins and knocking them down. What I mean by this is that I get a feeling people are less interested in the idea of Spak possibly being town and just stubbornly wanting to have a lynch decide for them. Town lean.

all of his play has been really safe. he townread the two top wagons, but his reasoning is incredibly fallible. theyre gut and meta. ez pz. he votes pythag for reasons i criticize in my 373, and seems intent on ignoring a discussion with me about it and sticking his heels down with his 560. he says kary is a scumlean because his direction of "lynch lore or soup" is bad, and when asked about it, just reiterates his soup and lore town reads and doesnt explain how kary's pulling for that is scummy. when asked about it again, he just... brushes it off. hes phoning reads in. hes skating by. hes letting the thread play itself. he was the first person to vote pythag but he wasnt the first person to voice criticism against the slot, and his reasoning is ****ing trash. i cant possibly understand what tonal read youre getting from the slot cuz what i see is a guy thats just playing it safe and clean and not interested in hunting scum.

 

[Fandangox]

I feel like it is but maybe you don't see it. I think this is a matter of perspective and disagreeing on it. Can I ask why specifics are so important to you and why my word can't be a bond?

Soup this is why you are still being voted over, people may start to feel better about your recent posts, but how many times have I had to ask on this page alone to estate why you disagree with Ran's reasoning? There really isn't a specifc reasoning there that doesn't rely on meta, I want you to lay out Ran's out reasoning and why you disagree.

And because I still think Lore is scum, I don't like Lore disappearing after the pressure was off them, and I think town tends to gain a lot from getting to know specifically why you read that slot, and bringing a specific post and expanding on it should be easier for everyone to see where your head is at.

 

[Lore]

Lore You are not voting yet, who is scum?

I was unvoted on Soup due to wanting to hear from the rest of his wagon. I'd rather not risk a hammer while we were discussing the pros and cons. Now that #HBC | FrozeηFlame has stated his thoughts, he needs to unvote since he sounds like he believes the claim. Will reread his big post and ask some questions, I've got some gut feelings on it.

If he doesn't unvote (or state he's keeping his vote) by the time of his next post, I'll be voting again.

Soup is repeatedly inconsistent, as I've stated before. His outburst was one big pile of miserable AtE (legit frustration or not), and if he's a scum PR (as I currently believe, as stated), the Oracle role was the single best one he could pick to fake claim. A role that only gives results upon death means that Town is more likely to let him live another day, confident that he can just be lynched after he gets a result. The fact that he claimed super early just makes me feel more confident that this is the case.


After that, I will be diving into Ran D2. His sudden turn towards me after I brought up the weirdness of his setup (and how it relates to a scum!Soup flip) was extremely oddly timed. I'd like to figure out if it was OMGUS or a scum action.

I also feel similarly to Tom about FF and Pythag's reaction to Gorf's joke. Those are two slots I'll be looking into as well.

Spak, I'm pretty 50/50 on. I think the early game actions were still pretty weird, and Soup bringing him up repeatedly feels odd to my gut. But everything past the beginning of the game seems decent, and I have no clue about this slot.

All other slots are pretty null, with various small things either as pros or cons. We've had a pretty narrow focus this game so far, which leads to less info on many slots. The only exceptions are two town slots, and since I haven't actually given town reads yet this game, I'll share them.

Kary and Ryker. I firmly believe that their early D1 reaction to me was meant to convey that their reasoning-light votes were done for the sake of pressure, and if they were scum, I feel like it would have instead been a great opportunity to push my lynch. I already had heat on me, and they could just go "so now you're suspecting people due to pressure votes?" and shifted the pressure from Soup to me.

For that, I'm currently reading them as town. I'd dearly love a correction from either slot if I am incorrect in my interpretations of their actions.

 

[Lore]

And because I still think Lore is scum, I don't like Lore disappearing after the pressure was off them, and I think town tends to gain a lot from getting to know specifically why you read that slot, and bringing a specific post and expanding on it should be easier for everyone to see where your head is at.

I was literally at a baseball game with family and can share pics if absolutely necessary. I'll be very frustrated if that proof is deemed necessary. I still tried to get in here and post despite the circumstances.

I also can't help being sick, but I'm still trying to pop in and keep discussion going when I can.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

EBWOP:

Do you really think me and me alone could get marshy/Kary lynched? That's just like, not even possible. By all means, put some PRs on them (I already said I wanna oracle Kary) but Pythag is more reasonable, it's about priority sometimes too.

That's not my problem.

You didn't change the gamestate at all here. You're sitting here and looking for whatever people will hop onto to latch yourself to. You've just set out feelers and you're hoping someone will bite on a line so you can reel it in.

I don't like it. There's no reaching out to people. There's no campaigning. There's no actual effort to net one of those lynches.

In fact, in your posts you went and wrote out an excuse to AVOID trying to get someone who could get you out to work with you (me). The route out, if you can't lynch the guy you want is to get someone who can to see your angle. Instead, you look to be trying to get someone to bite on something.

Make people second guess town reads? Check.

Offer about 3 completely new options? Check.

Try and actually push a scumread? Missing.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Soup this is why you are still being voted over, people may start to feel better about your recent posts, but how many times have I had to ask on this page alone to estate why you disagree with Ran's reasoning? There really isn't a specifc reasoning there that doesn't rely on meta, I want you to lay out Ran's out reasoning and why you disagree.

And because I still think Lore is scum, I don't like Lore disappearing after the pressure was off them, and I think town tends to gain a lot from getting to know specifically why you read that slot, and bringing a specific post and expanding on it should be easier for everyone to see where your head is at.

Then you disagree with me and that's it? I know that sounds a bit snooty after opening up but we're not in agreement and it's fine. I gave you my reasoning, I swear on my momma's life. What is wrong with it? You see things different than I do and you respond to things differently. Dynamics are good, if everyone played the same it'd be boring. If you think the reason I am scum is because I'm not playing the way you expect a townie to play from your perpsective then the least I can do is give you my reads and my own interpretations. We don't see eye to eye on how we come to them, but I don't see how that's a problem.

I know it sounds ****ty but we're just at two opposite ends on how we're reading this game and it's affecting each other to meet halfway. I see your point on Lore, but I'm frustratingly stubborn as some have been on me to decide whether or not my read on the situation is correct. Do you believe that yours is more objective and I am merely theorizing? I get the vibe you believe that's all this is, but I assure you it's not.

 

[ranmaru]

I am ready to vote soup in my next post unless anyone has any objections.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

That's not my problem.

You didn't change the gamestate at all here. You're sitting here and looking for whatever people will hop onto to latch yourself to. You've just set out feelers and you're hoping someone will bite on a line so you can reel it in.

I don't like it. There's no reaching out to people. There's no campaigning. There's no actual effort to net one of those lynches.

In fact, in your posts you went and wrote out an excuse to AVOID trying to get someone who could get you out to work with you (me). The route out, if you can't lynch the guy you want is to get someone who can to see your angle. Instead, you look to be trying to get someone to bite on something.

Make people second guess town reads? Check.

Offer about 3 completely new options? Check.

Try and actually push a scumread? Missing.

I disagree entirely. I'm campaigning the **** out of this thread right now lool. I seriously don't understand what you mean 'latch yourself to', like genuinely.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Pythag is a good play because of what I said about how I feel about the gamestate. How is Gorf like the only person to get it, even if he disagrees. Ryker's assumption is just confusing.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

I think there's plenty of solve or attempt to, but hey I'm biased.

Because I didn't want to play like this, I don't enjoy being in the spotlight as much as it seems like I do. I like popping in and saying something that I feel others are neglecting. I don't see how you have problem with my 2/3 scumreads being wagoners when everything I described about gamestate plays into it. Obviously you disagree because youre going to regardless of alignment, but let's assume despite your own judgment we are both town here. Why is my perspective on the wagons wrong, and if I'm falsely accusing you two, then where else? Your only other thought is Lore and I want to see how this ties in with me.

its convenient. i know im town. i dont think ANYONE wants to go kary today other than you. i am interested in exploring pythag tho so im all ears if you have more on that

also cant help but feel its fairly arbitrary how i ended up in scum pile as opposed to tom/kevin/ryker. like do you really see my slot/play as so different from theirs? it seems like you just picked my name out of the hat and used my meta against me to shade me

gotta do some **** but ill b around sporadically while i think **** over. were spose to do a fireworks thing tonight but its raining and were waiting to see if itll b delayed to tomorrow

 

[Fandangox]

I am ready to vote soup in my next post unless anyone has any objections.

Wait for Kevin and FF to weight in.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

#HBC | Gorf

I wanna delve deeper in your post but what's like, stopping Pythag and Spak's name being slotted into your opinion of Spak? Like, what I mean by this is that you say Spak is being the way I feel about Pythag, but admittingly your reasoning is a bit more solid. Do you think that both Pythag/Spak can be scum and this is a case of scum just ****ing off entirely?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Wait for Kevin and FF to weight in.

I don't understand what you want from me, same goes with Ryker.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Wait for Kevin and FF to weight in.

spak too plz. would b nice to hear from pythag too but i dont expect it at this point

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

its convenient. i know im town. i dont think ANYONE wants to go kary today other than you. i am interested in exploring pythag tho so im all ears if you have more on that

also cant help but feel its fairly arbitrary how i ended up in scum pile as opposed to tom/kevin/ryker. like do you really see my slot/play as so different from theirs? it seems like you just picked my name out of the hat and used my meta against me to shade me

gotta do some **** but ill b around sporadically while i think **** over. were spose to do a fireworks thing tonight but its raining and were waiting to see if itll b delayed to tomorrow

How is it arbtirary? I chose you because I know you better and we've been playing more off-site. I even mentioned it in my argument. Your play is definitely different and you know it, and if I were taking the whole 'lol prove it' angle Fanny keeps giving to me, tell me why Lore/Me makes sense if that's what you think it is.

 

[ranmaru]

I think there are plenty of reasons to believe Spak and Lore are scum and it is absurd to disagree without a reason or post in mind.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

The only thing I can feel from the judging eyes is too little too late. That's my guess about Ran/Fanny/Whatever. I again say that I didn't want to play like this, this wasn't on my agenda. If you think I'm scum then I've pretty much given you a whole textbook on how I feel towards the game, how people are behaving, all of it. I could've just hoped you guys either lynched me and said nothing or got bored and picked someone else. Is this a defense? Probably but look at all the votes on me!

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I think there are plenty of reasons to believe Spak and Lore are scum and it is absurd to disagree without a reason or post in mind.

...What happens if they're not?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

ive got my curiosities on pythag brewing but him being v/la for the rest of the Day bores me so id rather develop my read toMorrow. idk about them being scum together cuz i ususally dont give a **** to think that deep about it at least on d1 but i feel like the case on spak is a looooot more concrete than pythag atm given what we have.

 

[Lore]

I am ready to vote soup in my next post unless anyone has any objections.

I'd rather wait for FF to solidly put down their vote or unvote if they have objections. I feel like he shouldn't be allowed to skate through on it. Pythag gets a pass atm because irl stuff.

 

[ranmaru]

...What happens if they're not?

Then you should be able to determine that since you believe they are not.

 

[Fandangox]

I was unvoted on Soup due to wanting to hear from the rest of his wagon. I'd rather not risk a hammer while we were discussing the pros and cons. Now that #HBC | FrozeηFlame has stated his thoughts, he needs to unvote since he sounds like he believes the claim. Will reread his big post and ask some questions, I've got some gut feelings on it.

If he doesn't unvote (or state he's keeping his vote) by the time of his next post, I'll be voting again.

Soup is repeatedly inconsistent, as I've stated before. His outburst was one big pile of miserable AtE (legit frustration or not), and if he's a scum PR (as I currently believe, as stated), the Oracle role was the single best one he could pick to fake claim. A role that only gives results upon death means that Town is more likely to let him live another day, confident that he can just be lynched after he gets a result. The fact that he claimed super early just makes me feel more confident that this is the case.


After that, I will be diving into Ran D2. His sudden turn towards me after I brought up the weirdness of his setup (and how it relates to a scum!Soup flip) was extremely oddly timed. I'd like to figure out if it was OMGUS or a scum action.

I also feel similarly to Tom about FF and Pythag's reaction to Gorf's joke. Those are two slots I'll be looking into as well.

Spak, I'm pretty 50/50 on. I think the early game actions were still pretty weird, and Soup bringing him up repeatedly feels odd to my gut. But everything past the beginning of the game seems decent, and I have no clue about this slot.

All other slots are pretty null, with various small things either as pros or cons. We've had a pretty narrow focus this game so far, which leads to less info on many slots. The only exceptions are two town slots, and since I haven't actually given town reads yet this game, I'll share them.

Kary and Ryker. I firmly believe that their early D1 reaction to me was meant to convey that their reasoning-light votes were done for the sake of pressure, and if they were scum, I feel like it would have instead been a great opportunity to push my lynch. I already had heat on me, and they could just go "so now you're suspecting people due to pressure votes?" and shifted the pressure from Soup to me.

For that, I'm currently reading them as town. I'd dearly love a correction from either slot if I am incorrect in my interpretations of their actions.

Do you still go for Ran on Soup scum flip?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Then you should be able to determine that since you believe they are not.

I did determine it. You just don't like the outcome. I think you and much like everyone else just want the lynch to solve their problems, which is fine and good but I'd rather get it right the first time.

 

[ranmaru]

When I say determine I mean using reasoning or quotes that would prove me and others wrong.

 

[Lore]

Do you still go for Ran on Soup scum flip?

I feel that I was unclear here, my Ran flip is explicitly for post scum!Soup flip.

Soup's earlier post about me being a bit self assured here is valid (even if it's born of some salt imo), but I find it hard to find it reasonable that Soup is town at this point.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

When I say determine I mean using reasoning or quotes that would prove me and others wrong.

I've given you so much reasoning I might as well be a ****ing author. I don't like quoting specific instances, I paraphrase my thoughts about certain dialogue and go from there. Is it Spak/Me/Lore in your mind?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

It's getting to the point where you'd rather be right than be wrong. I will not make you townread me and I did this because I just like being town and enjoy posting my thoughts. I'vve done all I can from a self-perspective to show why I'm town, but what I find a bit yknow uhhh

Hypocritical? Is that I write droves of text on my opinions and why they make sense and nobody has yet to combat them. I don't like giving people the same treatment they gave me, but you wanted this and I can't make you pleased with the outcome. If you want to read me on who I scumread or don't, then that's fine. I have a feeling that's what most of what this is anyways, the lot of you just can't believe I have the opinions I do.

 

[ranmaru]

It is.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Last thing cause I'm tired of writing now.

I'm not indifferent to compromise. I will look more into the arguments of Spak as they are presented or even what he does. I know this sounds kinda mean but I've genuinely filitered out Lore and it's like he doesn't even post in my mind, to some extent Ran too. I'm defaulting on my opinion of him and assuming you'll all shout me down about it regardless. If you think he's scum then it's gonna be your problem cause I can't be ****ed to try and consider that when it really is a too scummy to be scum situation.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

It is.

Posts like these are why I townread you

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Actually **** it I'm here--

Want more opinions on my nulls. I want them to not nulls. Null does not mean i don't care about them, in-fact I'd say I care about them way more because I am unable to determine how I feel about them. If you don't wanna read they're Kevin/Tom/Ryker/Frozen

thx

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I disagree entirely. I'm campaigning the **** out of this thread right now lool. I seriously don't understand what you mean 'latch yourself to', like genuinely.

You aren't actually progressing toward a course of action. You STILL don't have a preferred course of action other than "not me." Instead, what you're doing is laying out a whole bunch of options and hoping someone will pick one up and you can ride that instead.

You're not trying to find a scumbag right now. You're trying to find an agreeable lynch.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

You aren't actually progressing toward a course of action. You STILL don't have a preferred course of action other than "not me." Instead, what you're doing is laying out a whole bunch of options and hoping someone will pick one up and you can ride that instead.

You're not trying to find a scumbag right now. You're trying to find an agreeable lynch.

I was trying to leave the thread and u pull me back in..

I laid out the options bare and center. I have my vote on one of them. I feel you're trying to speak down to me with semantics, and of course people will eat it up because you're Ryker.