Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ChikoLad]

The boost moves in both Sonic Rush and the "Modern" games are Sonic breaking the sound barrier.

He could also do it in the Sonic Advance games (when you accelerate really fast in those games, a ripple effect flashes by and after images of Sonic trail behind him).

His special move in Sonic Rivals was also called Sonic Boom IIRC, and it simply made him go really fast and break through obstacles.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm Pretty sure its in Colors and Unleashed.

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Just wasn't sure.

Anyway, new things about Sonic! Yay!

Allow me to introduce the Wisps. The Wisps are power-ups in the form of aliens, originating in Sonic Colors and returning in both Sonic Generations and Sonic Lost World. They're basically the equivalent to Mario's power-ups. These guys allow Sonic to take on various forms, including:

- A laser that can pierce through enemies and obstacles, as well as bouncing off surfaces
- A drill that can burrow through soft material and damage enemies/obstacles, as well as giving better underwater mobility
- A rocket that can shoot up into the sky, as well as breaking obstacles and harming enemies
- A spiked ball that can cling onto walls/ceilings, as well as breaking obstacles and harming enemies
- A cube that sends out a shockwave that damages enemies and obstacles, as well as toggling blue rings/blocks
- A hovering green thing that can fly through the air, as well as harm enemies
- A nightmarish giant chomping head thing that grows in size when it eats things, such as obstacles and enemies
- A black hole that can fly, as well as sucking in obstacles and enemies
- A fireball that can fly with explosions, as well as blowing up obstacles and enemies
- A different black hole that creates an asteroid belt with the enemies and obstacles it sucks up, as well as jumping higher with a bigger belt
- An eagle that can soar through the skies, as well as attacking obstacles and enemies
- A music note that can... flop around. (And damage obstacles and enemies!)
- A lightning bolt that can move very quickly and travel through conductive substances, as well as attacking obstacles and enemies
- An iron ball that can climb walls, as well as creating shockwaves when it lands, damaging obstacles and enemies
- A bomb that can explode on obstacles and enemies

And when Sonic combines the Laser, Drill, Rocket, Spike, Cube, Hover, and Frenzy Wisps, he can use the Final Color Blaster, which is a super attack that combines Sonic's already powerful Spin Attack with the Hyper-Go-On energy of the Wisps to create a spinning ball of destruction that can knock out the Nega-Wisp Armor and send Dr. Robotnik flying. (Imagine what it would do if he was Super Sonic while doing that.)

With these fifteen transformations and super attack at his disposal, along with his standard techniques and the Chaos Emeralds, Sonic is looking as formidable a fighter as ever, and then some.

Still can't beat Rosalina though; she's sort of a universe-resetting deity.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Just wasn't sure.

Anyway, new things about Sonic! Yay!

Allow me to introduce the Wisps. The Wisps are power-ups in the form of aliens, originating in Sonic Colors and returning in both Sonic Generations and Sonic Lost World. They're basically the equivalent to Mario's power-ups. These guys allow Sonic to take on various forms, including:

- A laser that can pierce through enemies and obstacles, as well as bouncing off surfaces
- A drill that can burrow through soft material and damage enemies/obstacles, as well as giving better underwater mobility
- A rocket that can shoot up into the sky, as well as breaking obstacles and harming enemies
- A spiked ball that can cling onto walls/ceilings, as well as breaking obstacles and harming enemies
- A cube that sends out a shockwave that damages enemies and obstacles, as well as toggling blue rings/blocks
- A hovering green thing that can fly through the air, as well as harm enemies
- A nightmarish giant chomping head thing that grows in size when it eats things, such as obstacles and enemies
- A black hole that can fly, as well as sucking in obstacles and enemies
- A fireball that can fly with explosions, as well as blowing up obstacles and enemies
- A different black hole that creates an asteroid belt with the enemies and obstacles it sucks up, as well as jumping higher with a bigger belt
- An eagle that can soar through the skies, as well as attacking obstacles and enemies
- A music note that can... flop around. (And damage obstacles and enemies!)
- A lightning bolt that can move very quickly and travel through conductive substances, as well as attacking obstacles and enemies
- An iron ball that can climb walls, as well as creating shockwaves when it lands, damaging obstacles and enemies
- A bomb that can explode on obstacles and enemies

And when Sonic combines the Laser, Drill, Rocket, Spike, Cube, Hover, and Frenzy Wisps, he can use the Final Color Blaster, which is a super attack that combines Sonic's already powerful Spin Attack with the Hyper-Go-On energy of the Wisps to create a spinning ball of destruction that can knock out the Nega-Wisp Armor and send Dr. Robotnik flying. (Imagine what it would do if he was Super Sonic while doing that.)

With these fifteen transformations and super attack at his disposal, along with his standard techniques and the Chaos Emeralds, Sonic is looking as formidable a fighter as ever, and then some.

Still can't beat Rosalina though; she's sort of a universe-resetting deity.

So whats the whole thing with Rosalina then?

 

[Munomario777]

So whats the whole thing with Rosalina then?

She can reset the universe (sonicbrawler explained in some of his previous posts). She's basically the "god"/deity figure of the Mario universe.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

But couldn't one with time travel abilities go back and prevent that or what?

And if Rosalina could prevent anyone from doing that... does that make her the most powerful, or one of the most powerful characters then?

 

[Munomario777]

But couldn't one with time travel abilities go back and prevent that or what?

And if Rosalina could prevent anyone from doing that... does that make her the most powerful, or one of the most powerful characters then?

Well, she could theoretically reset the universe to a state where her opponent doesn't exist. Unless, of course, someone freezes time before she can even think about resetting the universe.

Either way though, if we're talking pure power rather than who would win in a fight, she wins by a long shot, with that universe reset and all (Shulk needed Alvis's help to do that thing at the end of Xenoblade).

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So... what character have been talked about much?

 

[Crystanium]

When I call her "god-like", I refer to her power and role. I mean, it seems to surpass a known goddess (Palutena), so I don't think there is anything wrong with using the term descriptively. Plus, when it comes to Rosalina, Miyamoto did have a huge bias against her, so I wouldn't be surprised if he actively went against her being outright calling her a goddess, so it didn't feel like she was surpassing his characters in importance (Miyamoto did not create Rosalina).

Interesting. Do you have any citations for Mr. Miyamoto's bias against Rosalina and that he isn't the creator of her?

In Street Fighter X Tekken, Mega Man and Pac-Man are DLC characters and are rivals under the game's rival system, so this is hardly news that they are rivals.

Hm, I do recall that.

Pac-Man is literally the most recognisable game character in the world. For context, Sonic the Hedgehog is considered more recognisable than Mickey Mouse (and has been for a few years at this point). So if Sonic is more recognisable than Mickey Mouse, and Pac-Man is more recognisable than any other game character, that kind of makes him a huge deal in the gaming industry. The original Pac-Man also holds the record for the Most Successful Coin-Operated Video Game in the world.

I read somewhere that Mario is more recognized than Mickey Mouse, too. Sure, Pac-Man is one of those classical characters and iconic, too. I guess I just don't see him as all that great. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy playing Pac-Man.

But does it protect her from zero gravity, which is also achievable for Rosalina? That would greatly hinder Samus' mobility no matter how you swing it.

It does, actually. As Samus is leaving Sector Zero in Metroid: Other M, something suddenly happens to the ship behind her where the door blows open and she's being pulled out into the vacuum of space. You can continue to make her run, but getting sucked out of the ship is inevitable. It is at this point that Samus activates the Gravity Feature (that's what they call it in MOM, rather than Gravity Suit; same with Varia Feature) and drops to the ground unaffected while the Space Pirates are being sucked out.

And of course there is more to Rosalina than control over gravity as I previously descried many times, I was just giving one example of an ability that greatly hinders pretty much every projectile ever, among other things (in Smash, the only projectiles Rosalina cannot manipulate are ones related to Final Smash attacks, for obvious game balance reasons, so even there they imply she can manipulate pretty much anything with it).

In Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Other M, Samus' missiles are affected by Nightmare's gravity, but her beams are unaffected. The only time Samus' beams are affected is when Nightmare creates a black hole. It's at that point that Samus has to rely on a strategy where Nightmare is around the black hole so that the beams will hit it. I recall the other things you brought up for Rosalina, but I still can't say I see them being a problem for Samus.

Her reaction time also seems fine. She has one of the best rolls and air dodges in Smash, and has a lot of moves with fast start up. And she's able to keep up with the extreme work I put her under when speed running in 3D World. Just the fact that she is a platforming player character alone means she has to have perfect reactions.

Well, the way to determine reaction time would be to see what Rosalina reacts to. I cannot say she's ever dodged bullets or missiles (Bullet Bills are pretty slow, but I don't know if they're in SMG or in games where Rosalina's present.)

Unbiased as possible? A bit offensive I would say. You confirmed half of the information I wrote to be true yourself. Things I said were omitted changing the concept of what I described. And at the end I stated that she may not be the strongest, but she is being underestimated. Now I think all the details you said were great and true, even cleared some things out from what I knew, but at the same time, you just gave out proof of how powerful she is and make me consider she's even stronger that I thought.

I didn't intend my post to be offensive towards you, nor did I mean to say that you were being biased. I said that my post is as unbiased as possible because as a Metroid fan, and the fact that Samus is my favorite character of all fictions (I like her more than the Flash, who is my favorite DC character, and Iron Man, who is my favorite Marvel character) is meant to demonstrate that I don't inflate Samus' abilities. I was even one of the people who pointed out that Zebes' gravity isn't actually 960 g and that Retro Studios likely meant "4.8 billion teratons", not "trillion teratons", since "billion teratons" shows Zebes' gravitational acceleration to be 9.4 m/s^2, which is not far from Earth's 9.81 m/s^2.

OK, I'll admit, this is valid. She may travel at light speed but only with the Light Shaft. Never the less, the Light Suit protects her from the huge G Force and inertia she should be passing because of the speed of light.

Samus can take a good amount of g-force. Using the shinespark, she would actually experience 42 g's from what I calculated. Well, that's if she's traveling Mach 1.2, but I think it's Mach 2. At Mach 2, that would mean Samus would be experiencing 69.93 g.

Although Speed Booster does stop when crashing. It can also destroy enemies in concact with this state. Also, when mastering Shinespark, she can use it multiple times and avoid it from stopping if using it right. Since in Metroid Fusion there's a secret message where Adam (computer) states that her trick with the Shinespark was impressive, we can assume she has already mastered it. Although Zero Mission contradicts this theory since she never knew about the Shinespark until Super Metroid, yet she was able to use it in Zero Mission to get multiple items.

Yep. F = ma tells us that Samus is producing 30,870 newtons, which is equal to 3.47 tons. Using the shinespark, since the shinespark doesn't even take a second, gives us 61740 newtons (6.94 tons). Not even Sonic traveling at Mach 5 would harm Samus. He'd push her around with that force, but if she can withstand that much force, then Sonic will have to rely on other means.

Still offended by that whole "unbiased as possible" comment. Right here! Right here you just described her with even things I didn't consider. So she might have the power of the sun, the power of a dark hole, mini nuke bombs and she can distort time and space. This description not only helps my debate, but it also adds proof. Is there really a Smash Bros. character capable of doing this?

Not that I know of, but Samus' weaponry is pretty powerful. Of course, the fact that Samus' Annihilator Beam fires blasts of matter and anti-matter, we shouldn't assume that this anti-matter is going to produce a yield equal to the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Visual evidence shows us that the attack is powerful, but not enough to produce an explosion. If we say Samus' charged Annihilator Beam produces energy equal to a large grenade (130 kJ, according to Wikipedia), then the amount of anti-matter would only be 723 picograms.

I wrote on the comment all this. She didn't destroy the planets with her own weapons, she did it through different reasons. Never the less, it was her fault, she, smart enough, strong enough, or lucky enough, destroyed cores, crashed stations, removed enough energy to destroy planets. She was the cause of the destruction.
In Super Metroid, there's many theories to why Zebes exploded. In Zero Mission a self destruction sequence had already been done, yet the planet didn't seem to take massive damage after the detonation. Why did it blow up this time in Super Metroid? Mother brain had nothing to do with it, unless it was because of those hyper beams she kept shooting at Samus. If we consider that a sole Hyper Beam shot hits Samus (with all three power suits) with 300 of damage, we can easily assume that the Hyper beam had something to do with the destruction of Zebes pirecing through the tunnels Tourian Brinstar and Crateria, and since Samus did in fact use it multiple times, this might just be true, yet not official. We could use Other M to see if the Hyper Beam caused any damage, but the scene from Other M has multiple mistakes. She was wearing the Varia Suit or Power Suit, she didn't have the same amount of Energy Tanks from Super Metroid, the Baby's size was Smaller, etc.

Metroid: Other M's cut-scene takes precedence as far as canon goes. Samus was wearing the Varia Suit because Yoshio Sakamoto, the director of Super Metroid and the storywriter of MOM thought Samus looked silly in purple. That's why her armor is the Varia Suit color. We see later on that the Gravity Feature produces a purple aura around Samus and on her visor and glowing designs when she's in altered gravity or water.

In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, when fighting Gandrayda, she was able to use the Zero Beam against Samus. The artstyle of the beam is extractly the same as in Brawl or Smash Bros. 4. It has never been used by Samus, but Gandrayda used it multiple times. It couldn't of been the Hyper Beam because Metroid Prime 3 takes place before Super Metroid where she got it and there's no other beam that fits the description.

Retro Studios had fun with things like this. They mention "Project 'Metroid Dread'", which people said was going to be a Metroid game for the Nintendo DS. In Metroid Prime, there is a container in one of the Space Pirate bases that says "Metroid ds" or something. They intended that. Did you know Dark Samus was inspired by SA-X from Metroid Fusion? Yeah, so I wouldn't take that seriously. Besides, when Gandrayda transforms into Rundas, her attacks are electrically charged, and when Ghor, she fires purple beams, rather than plasma.

Mother Brain's lifespan might not give Samus extra years, but she did give her the Hyper Beam. So Samus does have things she obtained from her.

If Yoshio Sakamoto continues with the whole Chozo longevity, it would be nice if he mentions that because of Samus' Chozo DNA, her longevity is greater than any human.

I really enjoyed reading your post. I think that by the end, both me and you taking a second view through Samus's arsenal, we can understand that she at the very least, is top five of the strongest in Super Smash Bros. Yet I haven't read anybody's character description that might encounter all these things. Yet again, I haven't read all 76 pages XD

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Samus has been my favorite character since 1994. (A friend of mine from daycare brought Super Metroid.) That was 20 years ago. So it would be normal for me to defend Samus, except when I know she'd lose.

Well, she could theoretically reset the universe to a state where her opponent doesn't exist. Unless, of course, someone freezes time before she can even think about resetting the universe.

I know there are interpretations about Rosalina and the universal reset, but I wouldn't say even theoretically. We need something that suggests or outright states Rosalina reset the Universe. And even if she could, how would it aid her here? We've never even seen her reset the Universe on demand.

 

[GunGunW]

Are we all still in agreement that Shulk is top dog or?...

 

[Kryver98]

If the capabilities of each character were going by how canonically powerful they are, would be bottom tier. ^_^

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Are we all still in agreement that Shulk is top dog or?...

From the last page of discussion, Sonic and Rosalina seem to be pretty damn close to Shulk.... he might be top dog tho.

 

[Munomario777]

Are we all still in agreement that Shulk is top dog or?...

Actually, it's Rosalina atm, since Shulk basically "told" Alvis to do that that thing at the end of Xenoblade. However, that may change as well...

If the capabilities of each character were going by how canonically powerful they are, would be bottom tier. ^_^

That's actually what the topic is supposed to be.

I know there are interpretations about Rosalina and the universal reset, but I wouldn't say even theoretically. We need something that suggests or outright states Rosalina reset the Universe. And even if she could, how would it aid her here? We've never even seen her reset the Universe on demand.

Hmm, true. Rosalina seems to be more of a caretaker of the universe rather than the person who resets it, now that I think about it. Let's recap the final cutscene of Galaxy, from an objective point of view: The Galaxy Reactor implodes to form a black hole, and everything gets sucked in. The Luma waves at Mario, and he and all the other Lumas throw themselves into the black hole. The black hole seems to be overstuffed/out of control, and this causes a Big Bang-esque explosion. Then, Mario is seen floating in space with a giant Rosalina in front of him, who explains that the crying sounds are baby Lumas, and that the universe never resets itself in quite the same way. Then Mario wakes up on his home planet (which has many enemies/characters from the game), and welcomes the new galaxy. Zoom out to see various planets from the game all jumbled up together.

So, it seems that the Lumas purposefully sacrificed themselves to create the explosion, which "reset" the universe. Note that Rosalina says that the universe never resets "itself" in quite the same way, implying that she didn't trigger the reset. Since the Lumas create stars and the like, it makes sense that Rosalina would refer to them as "the universe." In fact, all she actually does here is get big and explain things to Mario (and the player), possibly through some sort of dream, since Mario wakes up after this happens.

Also, as a side note, the music for that cutscene is Luma's Theme, hinting that the Lumas had a major role.

Point of view = changed. * waits for sonicbrawler's reply *

 

[Etc_Guy]

If the capabilities of each character were going by how canonically powerful they are, would be bottom tier. ^_^

Well, him, , Dixie, Chunky, Lanky, and Tiny did go against a psychopathic Krok King that can be what ever he wants and win is rather unusual for Monkeys to have for a villain.

also had dual pistols in the beta version of DK64 so your argument is invalid.

 

[ChikoLad]

So, it seems that the Lumas purposefully sacrificed themselves to create the explosion, which "reset" the universe.

Except I already went over how there is no basis for that statement - the one Luma we get to see directly and personally, who for some reason people believe "sacrificed" himself, blatantly did not sacrifice himself. He is still the exact same Luma after the rebirth of the universe. He doesn't become a galaxy, a planet, or anything. And he even re-unites with Mario in Galaxy 2 (and later with Rosalina).

Therefore, it's illogical to make the assumption that any Lumas were sacrificed. Rosalina simply explains that the "cycle" (universe is born, people live and die, universe goes to utter chaos and is completely unstable, universe is reborn) is never repeated in "quite" the same way. Many things are shown to lose their memory and see changes, however, nothing associated with Rosalina changes remotely, even herself.

I can't respond to everything else in full as I am busy, but I just wanted to clear this up, and also wanted to clear up that I have already went over these points and shown how they cannot be true and don't make sense. They are as flimsy as the Game Theory episode on Rosalina.

 

[Munomario777]

Except I already went over how there is no basis for that statement - the one Luma we get to see directly and personally, who for some reason people believe "sacrificed" himself, blatantly did not sacrifice himself. He is still the exact same Luma after the rebirth of the universe. He doesn't become a galaxy, a planet, or anything. And he even re-unites with Mario in Galaxy 2 (and later with Rosalina).

Therefore, it's illogical to make the assumption that any Lumas were sacrificed. Rosalina simply explains that the "cycle" (universe is born, people live and die, universe goes to utter chaos and is completely unstable, universe is reborn) is never repeated in "quite" the same way. Many things are shown to lose their memory and see changes, however, nothing associated with Rosalina changes remotely, even herself.

I can't respond to everything else in full as I am busy, but I just wanted to clear this up, and also wanted to clear up that I have already went over these points and shown how they cannot be true and don't make sense. They are as flimsy as the Game Theory episode on Rosalina.

I'd say throwing themselves into a black hole counts as a "sacrifice," even if they did get brought back afterwards. After all, I'd imagine spaghettification would be pretty painful, and even if it wasn't a sacrifice per se, the Lumas still did something inside that black hole.

Mario is the same. Peach's castle is the same. Everything else is pretty much the same, but their roles/locations aren't "quite" the same (Bowser doesn't kidnap Peach, and everything is close together). This could be said for Rosalina as well; in Galaxy, the Observatory serves as the main hub for the game, and Rosalina is the person who assists Mario throughout his adventure. In Galaxy 2, Rosalina only comes in towards the end, and has a minor role in the game. Rosalina herself is the same, but her role (major -> minor character) and location (whole game -> end of game) are the same. On the subject of memory loss, that's never really seen, since Mario welcomes the "new galaxy" (you'd think he'd have to see an old one to welcome the "new" one), the Baby Luma in Galaxy 2 likes Mario (perhaps recognizing him), and even the storybook remembers the events of Galaxy, since in Galaxy 2, it states that the Star Festival has "come again."

 

[Little_Dragon34]

I like being Yoshi

 

[Etc_Guy]

I like being Yoshi

Alrighty then.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'd say throwing themselves into a black hole counts as a "sacrifice," even if they did get brought back afterwards. After all, I'd imagine spaghettification would be pretty painful, and even if it wasn't a sacrifice per se, the Lumas still did something inside that black hole.

Mario is the same. Peach's castle is the same. Everything else is pretty much the same, but their roles/locations aren't "quite" the same (Bowser doesn't kidnap Peach, and everything is close together). This could be said for Rosalina as well; in Galaxy, the Observatory serves as the main hub for the game, and Rosalina is the person who assists Mario throughout his adventure. In Galaxy 2, Rosalina only comes in towards the end, and has a minor role in the game. Rosalina herself is the same, but her role (major -> minor character) and location (whole game -> end of game) are the same. On the subject of memory loss, that's never really seen, since Mario welcomes the "new galaxy" (you'd think he'd have to see an old one to welcome the "new" one), the Baby Luma in Galaxy 2 likes Mario (perhaps recognizing him), and even the storybook remembers the events of Galaxy, since in Galaxy 2, it states that the Star Festival has "come again."

At what point are they thrown in? All I saw, as a first time player, was them being sucked in, and that's still all I see. The whole point of the ending was meant to make you think "...oh no, everyone is gonna die?" as a first time player, but then Rosalina fixes it. The Lumas are none the wiser.

All that happened to the Lumas is that they died and were reborn. Recall Rosalina saying to Mario "do you hear the baby stars?", before she explains what happens when a Luma dies.

Actually, the Mushroom Kingdom is not the same. It's layout changes in the reset, and new inhabitants are there, as well as being part of a new galaxy. Also, Mario and Peach count as associates of Rosalina, as they are her friends. Same with Bowser, he is someone she had established a connection to in Galaxy since they were enemies (though Bowser is not pure evil, so leaving him the same is reasonable - especially since he has a child, something she can relate to).

And the "come again" quote is said in Galaxy 1 as well. It's referring to how the Star Festival comes every 100 years.
You basically just tried to imply that 100 canonical years passed between Galaxy 1 and 2. That is impossible, as Mario characters can age, as proven by Baby Mario and the other baby characters from Yoshi's Island (which is canon). The universe simply was reborn into not long before another Star Festival.

Also meta parallels between Galaxy 1 and 2 (such as how you tried to compare Rosalina's role in both games) don't mean anything. They exist between every Mario game. Yoshi was a major character in Super Mario World, became a cameo in 64, was pretty major in Sunshine again, was a cameo again in Galaxy, and was major again in Galaxy 2, and has been completey absent in every 3D Mario since, but has been present in the NSMB series. That doesn't mean there is a hidden meaning to that.

Galaxy 2 is literally Miyamoto's version of the game, since his vision for Galaxy 1 was basically Galaxy 2 minus Rosalina and the Lumas. Yoshi was gonna be in Galaxy 1 as a major character, and Starship Mario was originally it's Hub World, but Koizumi and other members of the staff wanted to incorporate Rosalina and all of the stuff associated with her (she was originally a minor character for one level or something), so they had to cut quite a bit of planned content for Galaxy. Miyamoto didn't like the idea at first, but was convinced when he saw the premise of Rosalina's backstory.

So Rosalina's "minor role" isn't so for plot reasons - Miyamoto stated outright that he wanted to keep storytelling to a minimum in Galaxy 2. Incorporating Rosalina in a major role would require giving her a story to go along with it. But they couldn't just not include her at all, as that would upset her fans. So they just made her the narrator of the game's simplified plot, built off of the 120 Star ending in Galaxy 1 and making Young Master Luma be separated from Rosalina in Galaxy 2 (meaning returning him to Rosalina was an objective of the plot - it referenced her without needing to make her presence major or terribly important), and made the final unlockable of the game to have her grace the presence of your ship forever. Rosalina's incorporation in Galaxy 2 is nothing more than shoe horned fan service when you break it down, but it was necessary to include her in some form considering how you can't just make a sequel and not have arguably the main character of that game's story based content not appear in some capacity (a similar thing happened with Olimar in Pikmin 3).

 

[Etc_Guy]

At what point are they thrown in? All I saw, as a first time player, was them being sucked in, and that's still all I see. The whole point of the ending was meant to make you think "...oh no, everyone is gonna die?" as a first time player, but then Rosalina fixes it. The Lumas are none the wiser.

What kind of Rosalina fan would f******* call lumas stupid?!

And the "come again" quote is said in Galaxy 1 as well. It's referring to how the Star Festival comes every 100 years.
You basically just tried to imply that 100 canonical years passed between Galaxy 1 and 2. That is impossible, as Mario characters can age, as proven by Baby Mario and the other baby characters from Yoshi's Island (which is canon). The universe simply was reborn into not long before another Star Festival.

Now you say Yoshi's Island is canon but not Mario Party? How dare you.....

So Rosalina's "minor role" isn't so for plot reasons - Miyamoto stated outright that he wanted to keep storytelling to a minimum in Galaxy 2.

Miyamoto said that he didn't want story elements in Sticker Star... In a RPG of all genres, so don't expect a story heavy Mario game from him anytime soon.

Incorporating Rosalina in a major role would require giving her a story to go along with it.

Alrighty then.

 

[Crystanium]

Hmm, true. Rosalina seems to be more of a caretaker of the universe rather than the person who resets it, now that I think about it. Let's recap the final cutscene of Galaxy, from an objective point of view: The Galaxy Reactor implodes to form a black hole, and everything gets sucked in. The Luma waves at Mario, and he and all the other Lumas throw themselves into the black hole. The black hole seems to be overstuffed/out of control, and this causes a Big Bang-esque explosion. Then, Mario is seen floating in space with a giant Rosalina in front of him, who explains that the crying sounds are baby Lumas, and that the universe never resets itself in quite the same way. Then Mario wakes up on his home planet (which has many enemies/characters from the game), and welcomes the new galaxy. Zoom out to see various planets from the game all jumbled up together.

So, it seems that the Lumas purposefully sacrificed themselves to create the explosion, which "reset" the universe. Note that Rosalina says that the universe never resets "itself" in quite the same way, implying that she didn't trigger the reset. Since the Lumas create stars and the like, it makes sense that Rosalina would refer to them as "the universe." In fact, all she actually does here is get big and explain things to Mario (and the player), possibly through some sort of dream, since Mario wakes up after this happens.

Also, as a side note, the music for that cutscene is Luma's Theme, hinting that the Lumas had a major role.

Point of view = changed. * waits for sonicbrawler's reply *

That's pretty interesting that you pointed out what Rosalina says about the Universe and not about herself.

Though sonicbrawler is trying to defend Rosalina being the one who reset the Universe, there's no evidence for it. We never see Rosalina do this again, nor does she state that it was her doing, nor have we observed her do it on command. The abilities she has are pretty clear by her demonstrating them. We actually see A causing B in these instances. The Big Bang? We have nothing.

What you will notice, however, are these glowing orbs and you see Lumas flying right into the black hole while everything else is already gone. Non-stop Lumas flying into the black hole. The reason why this kind of interpretation is accepted by most, even at Mario Wiki, is because it's something we observe. We don't see Rosalina. Now, what would really be the best way to show it was all Rosalina's doing was if in the background we saw a giant Rosalina who was translucent. Sure, it would be implied, but it would be better than nothing.

Even if it was Rosalina's doing, though, she never does it on command, and if she could do it on command, it doesn't seem to be in her character to do so, unless the Universe is in danger, being a watcher and protector of the cosmos and all.

 

[ChikoLad]

That's pretty interesting that you pointed out what Rosalina says about the Universe and not about herself.

Though sonicbrawler is trying to defend Rosalina being the one who reset the Universe, there's no evidence for it. We never see Rosalina do this again, nor does she state that it was her doing, nor have we observed her do it on command. The abilities she has are pretty clear by her demonstrating them. We actually see A causing B in these instances. The Big Bang? We have nothing.

What you will notice, however, are these glowing orbs and you see Lumas flying right into the black hole while everything else is already gone. Non-stop Lumas flying into the black hole. The reason why this kind of interpretation is accepted by most, even at Mario Wiki, is because it's something we observe. We don't see Rosalina. Now, what would really be the best way to show it was all Rosalina's doing was if in the background we saw a giant Rosalina who was translucent. Sure, it would be implied, but it would be better than nothing.

Even if it was Rosalina's doing, though, she never does it on command, and if she could do it on command, it doesn't seem to be in her character to do so, unless the Universe is in danger, being a watcher and protector of the cosmos and all.

Her ability to reset the universe or do whether or not she would do it on command (I don't believe she would) is irrelevant to why I think she is the most powerful, FYI. She has it, but it's irrelevant to why I think she is the most powerful of these Smash characters.

Also, there were other stuff there when the Lumas were being sucked in. You can see Lumas being sucked in even before Young Master Luma gets sucked in, and other stuff gets sucked in even afterwards. Mario himself is actually one of the last things to go in.

Also, exactly what you described happens after this:

After a big explosion of light (many of Rosalina's abilities have a "light" effect, like her protective barrier around herself and the Observatory), this scene follows directly after. A giant, ominous Rosalina, having personally saved Mario, emerges from the light, and speaks to him about what is happening. And after telling him how the "cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way", she knowingly says, with a smile:

As if she knows what's going to happen. As if she's done this before, so she can assure that things will be stable once more.

I'm sorry, but the "Luma Sacrifice Theory" has too many holes. No Luma is blatantly shown to be sacrificed (and the one Luma you say was never turned into a planet, i.e. no sacrifice happened, he simply died and was reborn like everyone else). It would leave Rosalina, the supposed guardian of the universe, at the mercy of a natural cycle, which defeats the purpose of the role, and we see that she always retains it anyway, so she mustn't be at it's mercy. On top of that, everything associated with her, even her original home, remains the same. If she wasn't in control, how could this one cottage and it's planet always remain? The planet has clearly aged, as she can only afford to visit every 100 years to check on it (and that amount of time likely does not even pass between resets). But the cottage remains in perfect condition.

Also, it would be out of character for Rosalina to intentionally raise Lumas to effectively kill them all on purpose.

And now, you can see how, by virtue of Rosalina's demonstrated power, self-stated role as "watcher and protector of the cosmos", problems with the "Luma Sacrifice" theory, confidence in the notion that the universe will be fine, her everlasting "memorabilia", and even by virtue of the very process that takes place in the ending, that she is very heavily implied to be the godly powerful, mother of the cosmos.

And if that's not enough:

She can communicate with us, and claim to, watch over us.

Yes, Mario says "THANK YOU SO MUCH, FOR PLAYING MY GAME!" at the end of the credits in some games, including Galaxy. But that's without context. Without even seeing him. And it's just a cute, funny thing.

This happens at the beginning of the elusive 120 Star Ending that you have to work so hard to see, and reveals other plot points too (she finally gets to visit her home, Young Master Luma stays behind, and she flies off). And it's completely poignant and sincere in it's tone.

Also one more thing:

"Even at Mario Wiki"

Mario Wiki is not a reliable source when it comes to ambiguous and implictive story elements. I have read their policies on the subject, but they are not followed at all.

Neither is SNN, it's Sonic counter-part, who are arguably worse (have made fanon articles and also steal writing).

 

[Etc_Guy]

Also, it would be out of character for Rosalina to intentionally raise Lumas to effectively kill them all on purpose.

Wait, if she didn't need them then why did all the lumas jump into the floating hole of deathness? Why kill your only family members just to ditch them for the Mario cast? Why bring them to get pummeled by everyone they do and don't know?!









Rosalina more krool than K. Rool konfirmed.

Do I win now?

VS!

This:

What kind of Rosalina fan would f******* call lumas stupid?!



Now you say Yoshi's Island is canon but not Mario Party? How dare you.....



Miyamoto said that he didn't want story elements in Sticker Star... In a RPG of all genres, so don't expect a story heavy Mario game from him anytime soon.

Well, him, , Dixie, Chunky, Lanky, and Tiny did go against a psychopathic Krok King that can be what ever he wants and win is rather unusual for Monkeys to have for a villain.

also had dual pistols in the beta version of DK64 so your argument is invalid.

 

[Pallex]

Out of the big four in this game, the only pair that haven't crossed paths officially before Smash 4 are Mario and Mega Man, to my knowledge:

I looked it up for you.

Source

Mega Man's first appearance in Mario-related media is in the German Club Nintendo magazine comic "Super Mario: Die Bescherung". The comic shows him with several other characters at Mario and Luigi's Christmas party.
Mega Man's first appearance in Mario-related media is in the German Club Nintendo magazine comic "Super Mario: Die Bescherung". The comic shows him with several other characters at Mario and Luigi's Christmas party.

His first and only major appearance was in the 1993 comic "Super Mario: Die Verwandlung", where he serves as Dr. Light's assistant. Besides taking care of the doctor and welcoming his visitors, Mega Man also drives the car they use for catching Wario.

Mega Man is also mentioned in the comic "Super Mario: Mario im Wunderland". When Mario and Toad meet Kirby, the latter explains that he wants to see the wizard so that he can wish to look like Mega Man.

You're welcome.

 

[ChikoLad]

I looked it up for you.

Source

You're welcome.

I knew there was something somewhere. I've seen that before, but I forgot all about it.

Thanks!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is Wario faster then a Car in that comic?

 

[warionumbah2]

Also explains why MM gets more love than Pac-Man and Sonic(Most remixes,big HD trailer) outside of staying by Nintendo's side during the 90's.

 

[Munomario777]

At what point are they thrown in? All I saw, as a first time player, was them being sucked in, and that's still all I see. The whole point of the ending was meant to make you think "...oh no, everyone is gonna die?" as a first time player, but then Rosalina fixes it. The Lumas are none the wiser.

They're thrown in when we see the black hole being sucked in, in the forms of the trails of light.

All that happened to the Lumas is that they died and were reborn. Recall Rosalina saying to Mario "do you hear the baby stars?", before she explains what happens when a Luma dies.

Key word being "died." AKA a sacrifice. This can be seen when the Luma, after waving to Mario, spins around, and then lets out a noise and throws himself into the black hole, along with all the other Lumas.

Actually, the Mushroom Kingdom is not the same. It's layout changes in the reset, and new inhabitants are there, as well as being part of a new galaxy. Also, Mario and Peach count as associates of Rosalina, as they are her friends. Same with Bowser, he is someone she had established a connection to in Galaxy since they were enemies (though Bowser is not pure evil, so leaving him the same is reasonable - especially since he has a child, something she can relate to).

Exactly. The elements are the same, just in different roles and locations. The castle, the buildings, everything that was rearranged. Same objects, just in a different place. If Mario and Peach count as Rosalina's "associates," then Rosalina is no more special than them in this regard. Also, how do you explain every other character/enemy in the game going unchanged?
EDIT: Plus, if "they're enemies, but he's not 100% evil" somehow excludes Bowser from the reset, then any other protagonist (Link, Sonic, etc.) she faces in a battle would be excluded from the reset as well.

And the "come again" quote is said in Galaxy 1 as well. It's referring to how the Star Festival comes every 100 years.
You basically just tried to imply that 100 canonical years passed between Galaxy 1 and 2. That is impossible, as Mario characters can age, as proven by Baby Mario and the other baby characters from Yoshi's Island (which is canon). The universe simply was reborn into not long before another Star Festival.

My apologies, I forgot it was in Galaxy 1 as well.

Also meta parallels between Galaxy 1 and 2 (such as how you tried to compare Rosalina's role in both games) don't mean anything. They exist between every Mario game. Yoshi was a major character in Super Mario World, became a cameo in 64, was pretty major in Sunshine again, was a cameo again in Galaxy, and was major again in Galaxy 2, and has been completey absent in every 3D Mario since, but has been present in the NSMB series. That doesn't mean there is a hidden meaning to that.

Thank you for the Yoshi example to back up my explanation. Yoshi himself is the same, but he has a different role. It's likely that every game/group of games is a different cycle, in fact, since they don't usually connect to each other. This explains why sometimes Bowser kidnaps Peach, and other times they all go karting together.

Galaxy 2 is literally Miyamoto's version of the game, since his vision for Galaxy 1 was basically Galaxy 2 minus Rosalina and the Lumas. Yoshi was gonna be in Galaxy 1 as a major character, and Starship Mario was originally it's Hub World, but Koizumi and other members of the staff wanted to incorporate Rosalina and all of the stuff associated with her (she was originally a minor character for one level or something), so they had to cut quite a bit of planned content for Galaxy. Miyamoto didn't like the idea at first, but was convinced when he saw the premise of Rosalina's backstory.

So Rosalina's "minor role" isn't so for plot reasons - Miyamoto stated outright that he wanted to keep storytelling to a minimum in Galaxy 2. Incorporating Rosalina in a major role would require giving her a story to go along with it. But they couldn't just not include her at all, as that would upset her fans. So they just made her the narrator of the game's simplified plot, built off of the 120 Star ending in Galaxy 1 and making Young Master Luma be separated from Rosalina in Galaxy 2 (meaning returning him to Rosalina was an objective of the plot - it referenced her without needing to make her presence major or terribly important), and made the final unlockable of the game to have her grace the presence of your ship forever. Rosalina's incorporation in Galaxy 2 is nothing more than shoe horned fan service when you break it down, but it was necessary to include her in some form considering how you can't just make a sequel and not have arguably the main character of that game's story based content not appear in some capacity (a similar thing happened with Olimar in Pikmin 3).

Except according to you, development history doesn't matter (coughSonic3&Knucklescough). And even if this was the reason, it's not in Mario canon. In Mario canon, Rosalina just didn't help Mario throughout the game. However, the theory I presented explains this.

Her ability to reset the universe or do whether or not she would do it on command (I don't believe she would) is irrelevant to why I think she is the most powerful, FYI. She has it, but it's irrelevant to why I think she is the most powerful of these Smash characters.

It's debatable.

Also, there were other stuff there when the Lumas were being sucked in. You can see Lumas being sucked in even before Young Master Luma gets sucked in, and other stuff gets sucked in even afterwards. Mario himself is actually one of the last things to go in.

Yes, but the Lumas do it willingly (explained above).

Also, exactly what you described happens after this:

After a big explosion of light (many of Rosalina's abilities have a "light" effect, like her protective barrier around herself and the Observatory), this scene follows directly after. A giant, ominous Rosalina, having personally saved Mario, emerges from the light, and speaks to him about what is happening.

Key word here being "after." The big bang happens, and then Rosalina comes in. There's no association implied here.

And after telling him how the "cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way", she knowingly says, with a smile:

As if she knows what's going to happen. As if she's done this before, so she can assure that things will be stable once more.

Knowing that the universe will reset and actually resetting it are two different things; I could predict the moon cycles, but that doesn't mean I'm the one doing it.

I'm sorry, but the "Luma Sacrifice Theory" has too many holes. No Luma is blatantly shown to be sacrificed (and the one Luma you say was never turned into a planet, i.e. no sacrifice happened, he simply died and was reborn like everyone else).

Died, sacrifice. Moving on.

It would leave Rosalina, the supposed guardian of the universe, at the mercy of a natural cycle, which defeats the purpose of the role, and we see that she always retains it anyway, so she mustn't be at it's mercy.

Being the guardian of the universe (assuming there's some sort of deity at work here, and that said deity appointed Rosalina) would presumably mean you get some sort of special treatment, wouldn't it?

On top of that, everything associated with her, even her original home, remains the same. If she wasn't in control, how could this one cottage and it's planet always remain? The planet has clearly aged, as she can only afford to visit every 100 years to check on it (and that amount of time likely does not even pass between resets). But the cottage remains in perfect condition.

Because renovations. Good housekeeping =/= immunity to universe resets.

Also, it would be out of character for Rosalina to intentionally raise Lumas to effectively kill them all on purpose.

Unless she knows they'll be reborn, and/or she doesn't know about the incoming reset (but the latter is a bit unlikely).

And now, you can see how, by virtue of Rosalina's demonstrated power, self-stated role as "watcher and protector of the cosmos", problems with the "Luma Sacrifice" theory, confidence in the notion that the universe will be fine, her everlasting "memorabilia", and even by virtue of the very process that takes place in the ending, that she is very heavily implied to be the godly powerful, mother of the cosmos.

No, not really.

And if that's not enough:

She can communicate with us, and claim to, watch over us.

Yes, that's usually what guardians do. It doesn't indicate that she resets the universe, however; police in real life can use security cameras and phones.

Yes, Mario says "THANK YOU SO MUCH, FOR PLAYING MY GAME!" at the end of the credits in some games, including Galaxy. But that's without context. Without even seeing him. And it's just a cute, funny thing.

It's in the context of the game being over.

This happens at the beginning of the elusive 120 Star Ending that you have to work so hard to see, and reveals other plot points too (she finally gets to visit her home, Young Master Luma stays behind, and she flies off). And it's completely poignant and sincere in it's tone.

Yeah, that is a really good ending.

Also one more thing:

"Even at Mario Wiki"

Mario Wiki is not a reliable source when it comes to ambiguous and implictive story elements. I have read their policies on the subject, but they are not followed at all.

Neither is SNN, it's Sonic counter-part, who are arguably worse (have made fanon articles and also steal writing).

Which policies? Also, fanon articles and plagiarism don't necessarily mean that the articles don't have correct information; the former would most likely be marked as such, and the latter is mainly from individual users. Every Wiki in existence is pretty much going to have less-than-stellar content.

Still not seeing any concrete proof that Rosalina is the one who reset the universe.

 

[ChikoLad]

They're thrown in when we see the black hole being sucked in, in the forms of the trails of light.

Key word being "died." AKA a sacrifice. This can be seen when the Luma, after waving to Mario, spins around, and then lets out a noise and throws himself into the black hole, along with all the other Lumas.

Exactly. The elements are the same, just in different roles and locations. The castle, the buildings, everything that was rearranged. Same objects, just in a different place. If Mario and Peach count as Rosalina's "associates," then Rosalina is no more special than them in this regard. Also, how do you explain every other character/enemy in the game going unchanged?

Yoshi himself is the same, but he has a different role. It's likely that every game/group of games is a different cycle, in fact, since they don't usually connect to each other. This explains why sometimes Bowser kidnaps Peach, and other times they all go karting together.

Yes, but the Lumas do it willingly (explained above).

Key word here being "after." The big bang happens, and then Rosalina comes in. There's no association implied here.

Died, sacrifice. Moving on.

Being the guardian of the universe (assuming there's some sort of deity at work here, and that said deity appointed Rosalina) would presumably mean you get some sort of special treatment, wouldn't it?

Because renovations. Good housekeeping =/= immunity to universe resets.

Unless she knows they'll be reborn, and/or she doesn't know about the incoming reset (but the latter is a bit unlikely).

Yes, that's usually what guardians do. It doesn't indicate that she resets the universe, however; police in real life can use security cameras and phones.

The above quotes are all examples of you completely ignoring evidence presented in order to push fanon on people, many of which grasp at straws (for example, sacrifice =/= death. They are not even inherently linked concepts). None of them seem directly implied in the slightest.

That's all that needs to be said about these and so I won't waste anymore time than the time I spent reading it all, so moving on.

Which policies?

http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Canonicity

They basically contradict this all of the time.

Also, fanon articles and plagiarism don't necessarily mean that the articles don't have correct information; the former would most likely be marked as such, and the latter is mainly from individual users.

"Most likely" is what they would sensibly do, but they don't.
Also, plagiarism is still an ugly practice and ruins your credibility. It means you cannot do competent research, but feel the need to leech off of others in order to look credible.

These Wikis are fine for objective information, such as when a game released, or a very obvious and simple plot point like "In Super Mario Bros, Bowser kidnapped Peach". However, anything with the slightest bit of ambiguity (Rosalina in general being a big example of this) is something they will always make poor assessments of, either ignoring subtext or just nudging in pure speculation.

Except according to you, development history doesn't matter (coughSonic3&Knucklescough).

Yes it does.
Super Emeralds were originally going to be canon. But plans changed that made that not the case, and the games reflect this.

Rosalina and Peach being related, Yoshi, and Starship Mario were all things that were going to be a canon part of Galaxy 1. But plans changed, and the games reflect this.

History is just that - history. The past. Something may have been the case in the past, but that does not mean it is the case now. Games have tons of ideas before they are finished, does not mean the scrapped ones are canon based on the fact they were considered at one point.

 

[Munomario777]

The above quotes are all examples of you completely ignoring evidence presented in order to push fanon on people, many of which grasp at straws (for example, sacrifice =/= death. They are not even inherently linked concepts). None of them seem directly implied in the slightest.

That's all that needs to be said about these and so I won't waste anymore time than the time I spent reading it all, so moving on.

They sacrificed their lives by dying. Also, I'm not ignoring evidence. I'm explaining why it's wrong. If I was ignoring it, I wouldn't quote/refute it at all.

http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Canonicity

They basically contradict this all of the time.

The policy says that they shouldn't say what games/etc. actually happened in continuity with the other games (like a timeline), since there's no official word on that. It doesn't apply to a single game's story arc, like what happened in Galaxy.

"Most likely" is what they would sensibly do, but they don't.
Also, plagiarism is still an ugly practice and ruins your credibility. It means you cannot do competent research, but feel the need to leech off of others in order to look credible.

These Wikis are fine for objective information, such as when a game released, or a very obvious and simple plot point like "In Super Mario Bros, Bowser kidnapped Peach". However, anything with the slightest bit of ambiguity (Rosalina in general being a big example of this) is something they will always make poor assessments of, either ignoring subtext or just nudging in pure speculation.

I'll give you the fanon/plagiarism points. However, taking things at face value (Lumas go into the black hole, Rosalina explains) isn't inherently a bad practice. They're just stating what the game showed happening. They're not speculating; they're just taking the most obvious answer and putting it on the page.

Yes it does.
Super Emeralds were originally going to be canon. But plans changed that made that not the case, and the games reflect this.

Rosalina and Peach being related, Yoshi, and Starship Mario were all things that were going to be a canon part of Galaxy 1. But plans changed, and the games reflect this.

History is just that - history. The past. Something may have been the case in the past, but that does not mean it is the case now. Games have tons of ideas before they are finished, does not mean the scrapped ones are canon based on the fact they were considered at one point.

I was thinking more along the lines of you saying that Rosalina's role and the like were invalid points because they were caused by the game's development. What I meant by you essentially saying that development periods don't matter is that scrapped ideas don't matter (such as the Starship Mario originally being in Galaxy 1).

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

On the subject of emeralds, is sonic restricted to only using Chaos emeralds? Is the Master emerald out of the question?

 

[Munomario777]

On the subject of emeralds, is sonic restricted to only using Chaos emeralds? Is the Master emerald out of the question?

That's more associated with Knuckles, so I'd say no (he has enough as is, to be honest).

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So it seems that Sonic, Rosalina and Shulk are pretty much top dog around here. Is there anyone else that could come close?

 

[Munomario777]

So it seems that Sonic, Rosalina and Shulk are pretty much top dog around here. Is there anyone else that could come close?

Well, Shulk isn't exactly a deity, more like the administrator account on a computer with the ability to reset the universe. No one really comes to mind as being able to really compete with Sonic and Rosalina, at least off the top of my head.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Still can't beat Rosalina though; she's sort of a universe-resetting deity.

No she's not. It was in fact all along who was responsible for the Galaxy generator in the first place, and without it the game would have ended like a normal Mario game.

Also:

Wait, if she didn't need them then why did all the lumas jump into the floating hole of deathness? Why kill your only family members just to ditch them for the Mario cast? Why bring them to get pummeled by everyone they do and don't know?!









Rosalina more krool than K. Rool konfirmed.

Do I win now?

Sadly, Sonic has bigger kompetition than you think. You know ? If you do then he won't even kare about this until there is treasure involved. That's were things go down a volkano with the Emeralds. I'm no expert in valuables but aren't emeralds a type of jewel? If yes then say good by to 's only way of not being E tier.

+:

also had dual pistols in the beta version of DK64 so your argument is invalid.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

No she's not. It was in fact all along who was responsible for the Galaxy generator in the first place, and without it the game would have ended like a normal Mario game.

Also:


Sadly, Sonic has bigger kompetition than you think. You know ? If you do then he won't even kare about this until there is treasure involved. That's were things go down a volkano with the Emeralds. I'm no expert in valuables but aren't emeralds a type of jewel? If yes then say good by to 's only way of not being E tier.

+:

Sonic could, I dunno run away at the speed of sound, away from wario. Or he COULD freeze time. So Wario really can't compete with Sonic then anyway.

 

[Munomario777]

No she's not. It was in fact all along who was responsible for the Galaxy generator in the first place, and without it the game would have ended like a normal Mario game.

Yeah, I'm debating that now, and I've changed by viewpoint on the subject.

Sadly, Sonic has bigger kompetition than you think. You know ? If you do then he won't even kare about this until there is treasure involved. That's were things go down a volkano with the Emeralds. I'm no expert in valuables but aren't emeralds a type of jewel? If yes then say good by to 's only way of not being E tier.

Except greed =/= being able to get what you're greedy for. Also, what @ CyberHyperPhoenix said.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Gonna make a note that the Master Emerald can control the Chaos Emeralds. But usually only Knuckles can do that. But since the ME and Knuckles isn't really in Smash or take a huge spotlight it's a nonissue.

 

[ChikoLad]

They sacrificed their lives by dying. Also, I'm not ignoring evidence. I'm explaining why it's wrong. If I was ignoring it, I wouldn't quote/refute it at all.

But they didn't. They just died independently of any motive to die. They got sucked into a black hole. That's what happened at face value. Again, picture a first time player - they see Lumas being sucked into a black hole, along with everything else. OK. So they died. And later were reborn. No mention of the word sacrifice anywhere, and nothing blatantly resembling a sacrifice. Dying does not equal sacrificing yourself.

And you didn't explain why it's wrong. You simply made a statement that opposes it, but didn't do anything to back it up, like so:

They're thrown in when we see the black hole being sucked in, in the forms of the trails of light.

Opposes a view point, but does so by ignoring the evidence provided in said viewpoint.

The policy says that they shouldn't say what games/etc. actually happened in continuity with the other games (like a timeline), since there's no official word on that. It doesn't apply to a single game's story arc, like what happened in Galaxy.

This is more the part I am referring to:

"Essentially, it is perfectly fine to include disagreements created by different media products and it is not the responsibility of the writers to fix continuity errors. The wiki's goal is to cover the entire Mario series, not to resolve discrepancies between different sources of information."

They actually make assumptions in the same vein as solving continuity errors all of the time.

Granted, we are somewhat doing that here, but that's OK, since we are not intending to be a source that will be quoted for years to come. We're just a bunch of gamers rambling on about the characters and which ones we think are stronger, so a little bit of interpretation is fine.

However, taking things at face value (Lumas go into the black hole, Rosalina explains) isn't inherently a bad practice.

You're right, it isn't. But it's me that's actually practicing this. At no point am I told at face value, by Rosalina, the Lumas, or any character, that the Lumas sacrificed themselves. Other elements of the game that are pretty at face value also contradict the notion that they did.

I was thinking more along the lines of you saying that Rosalina's role and the like were invalid points because they were caused by the game's development.

I meant that how you were trying to make some strange connection with Galaxy 1 as to why Rosalina has a minor role in Galaxy 2, was going way out there and is not even remotely implied.

You tried to suggest that Rosalina's role being more minor in Galaxy 2 is the result of the "cycle not repeating itself in quite the same way". But it has absolutely nothing to do with it. You can adopt that as a fan theory, sure, but that's all it would ever be, pure fanon. Because at the end of the day, there is no in-universe reason for Rosalina not showing up as a main character. The reason she doesn't is strictly development related. Miyamoto wanted to make a sequel to Galaxy that incorporated many of the ideas he couldn't implement in Galaxy 1. So that is exactly what he did. It just so happens that one of those ideas was "a Mario platformer with virtually no story elements in space". In Galaxy 1, Koizumi and co's wish to make Rosalina a big part of it completely got in the way of that. Miyamoto has outright stated that he was jealous of how Rosalina was being implemented in Galaxy 1 while he had to put some of his ideas to the side, so he phased her out a bit in Galaxy 2, and also stated that he even initially intended to not have her show up AT ALL in Galaxy 2, or in any other game:

Miyamoto
When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I was a little hung up on why Rosalina was showing up when Princess Peach was already there. I thought it was fine as long as it was only Super Mario Galaxy, and we made her design so she's a little bigger. But all of a sudden she was a regular character in Mario Kart as just a regular girl, even her size turned to normal.

Iwata
As they say, time solves all things.

Miyamoto
If I think about it now, I'm like, "What was I so hung up on?!" I guess I was still green. (laughs)

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wiiu/super-mario-3d-world/0/3

To "be green/feel green" is an expression that means "jealous", as the colour green's associated emotion is jealousy in the language of colours.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Sonic could, I dunno run away at the speed of sound, away from wario. Or he COULD freeze time. So Wario really can't compete with Sonic then anyway.

The only problem is he can care less about god-things! because he killed two with his fist. (Not kidding.) Even if the slightest mention of them is heard he's off to take them for himself pummeling anyone in his path. If you are so reliant of some gems then if they're gone were will Sonic be? Running from a fat man to prevent being his new punching bag would count as a forfeit too.

Take away the Kong Family's guns and your still in lots of trouble. Take away Wario's hat and there is still his Safari cap. If one character only uses melee moves would be unfair. The only time it would be fair is if it's someone has a large variety of attacks. (Ex. .)

 

[Munomario777]

But they didn't. They just died independently of any motive to die. They got sucked into a black hole. That's what happened at face value. Again, picture a first time player - they see Lumas being sucked into a black hole, along with everything else. OK. So they died. And later were reborn. No mention of the word sacrifice anywhere, and nothing blatantly resembling a sacrifice. Dying does not equal sacrificing yourself.

The Luma waves, makes a noise, spins, and launches himself into the black hole.

And you didn't explain why it's wrong. You simply made a statement that opposes it, but didn't do anything to back it up, like so:

Opposes a view point, but does so by ignoring the evidence provided in said viewpoint.

Typo, my apologies. Black hole sucking them in * Also, you didn't exactly provide evidence for me to ignore. You said the ending was supposed to be tragic, and then said that Rosalina reset the universe and the Lumas were none the wiser, with no evidence to back up the claims.

This is more the part I am referring to:

"Essentially, it is perfectly fine to include disagreements created by different media products and it is not the responsibility of the writers to fix continuity errors. The wiki's goal is to cover the entire Mario series, not to resolve discrepancies between different sources of information."

They actually make assumptions in the same vein as solving continuity errors all of the time.

Yes, but that policy has nothing to do with Galaxy's story arc (which is one game, not multiple sources of information).

Granted, we are somewhat doing that here, but that's OK, since we are not intending to be a source that will be quoted for years to come. We're just a bunch of gamers rambling on about the characters and which ones we think are stronger, so a little bit of interpretation is fine.

Yeah, pretty much.

You're right, it isn't. But it's me that's actually practicing this. At no point am I told at face value, by Rosalina, the Lumas, or any character, that the Lumas sacrificed themselves. Other elements of the game that are pretty at face value also contradict the notion that they did.

At no point am I told that Rosalina reset the universe. Also, the Luma spinning and such is seen when a Hungry Luma spins around, lets out a noise, and shoots off into the distance in the same way that the Luma spins around, lets out a noise, and shoots off into the black hole, both doing this at their own will.

I meant that how you were trying to make some strange connection with Galaxy 1 as to why Rosalina has a minor role in Galaxy 2, was going way out there and is not even remotely implied.

You tried to suggest that Rosalina's role being more minor in Galaxy 2 is the result of the "cycle not repeating itself in quite the same way". But it has absolutely nothing to do with it. You can adopt that as a fan theory, sure, but that's all it would ever be, pure fanon. Because at the end of the day, there is no in-universe reason for Rosalina not showing up as a main character. The reason she doesn't is strictly development related. Miyamoto wanted to make a sequel to Galaxy that incorporated many of the ideas he couldn't implement in Galaxy 1. So that is exactly what he did. It just so happens that one of those ideas was "a Mario platformer with virtually no story elements in space". In Galaxy 1, Koizumi and co's wish to make Rosalina a big part of it completely got in the way of that. Miyamoto has outright stated that he was jealous of how Rosalina was being implemented in Galaxy 1 while he had to put some of his ideas to the side, so he phased her out a bit in Galaxy 2, and also stated that he even initially intended to not have her show up AT ALL in Galaxy 2, or in any other game:

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wiiu/super-mario-3d-world/0/3

I'm taking an in-universe explanation (the universe resetting in different ways) and applying it to an in-universe question (Rosalina appearing in different ways). Also, the reasons you just listed are developmental reasons (as in, Miyamoto wanted to develop Galaxy 2 without as much story as Galaxy).

The only problem is he can care less about god-things! because he killed two with his fist. (Not kidding.) Even if the slightest mention of them is heard he's off to take them for himself pummeling anyone in his path. If you are so reliant of some gems then if they're gone were will Sonic be? Running from a fat man to prevent being his new punching bag would count as a forfeit too.

Take away the Kong Family's guns and your still in lots of trouble. Take away Wario's hat and there is still his Safari cap. If one character only uses melee moves would be unfair. The only time it would be fair is if it's someone has a lot of variety of attacks. (Ex. .)

Except his fists can't do anything if time is frozen.