Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ChikoLad]

along with 's light gun likely did get the Euros and Muricans to get the NES since the console had different controllers to use instead of just one. Don't forget that canonically saved the industry by being the villain of Super Mario Bros.

And now for the post I've wanted to make for a while. Time to tip the scales!

If you want to use the logic that real life is canon, then the strongest Smash character canonically is, in fact, .

R.O.B saves the industry.

Nintendo goes on to be a successful company.

They eventually hire one Masahiro Sakurai to create a video game series known as Super Smash Bros.

Fast forward to Smash Wii U, R.O.B is a playable character, and real-life events and dates are referenced in Palutena's Guidances, as well as the trophy gallery.

Since reality is now an official part of Smash canon, and since Smash is also officially linked to other games (mainly Kid Icarus: Uprising, which also references reality and has unexplained questions of it's canon answered in Smash's Palutena's Guidance dialogue), this means that the strongest Smash character canonically is the one that's currently viewed as the strongest overall in competitive play by the Smash community IRL.

And currently, that's .

And as a bonus award, the character who canonically has the most powerful attack would then be . Because her Final Smash can do a total of 300% damage if you connect the Power Star properly on top of your opponent, with the surrounding Stars also dealing damage, and with the Power Star making a high launching explosion. No other attack comes close to this level of potential devastation in Smash:

 

[MagiusNecros]

That's the Power Star though. Not Rosalina. Power Star = 1 Rosalina = 0 Also Smash noncanon. Making it rather irrelevant. Sorry guy.

 

[ChikoLad]

That's the Power Star though. Not Rosalina. Power Star = 1 Rosalina = 0 Also Smash noncanon. Making it rather irrelevant. Sorry guy.

And the Power Star is something she literally just summons, being an ability associated with her. Like how Link can pull out bombs. It's a point in her favour, as she carries out the attack.

And Smash is canon, as I pointed out. No matter what way you swing it - Kid Icarus: Uprising questions get officially answered in Smash 4, linking the two canonically (they are made by the same person, after all). Smash 4 also references SSE, confirming that it has links to Kid Icarus' universe.

If Pit remembers all of this (such as still viewing Mario as a friend), and Palutena and Viridi are then able to talk about all of the fighters like they do, that means Nintendo, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man characters exist in the same universe. It would also explain the various other cross overs and Easter Eggs involving these characters (such as M&S at the Olympic Games, or Olimar's Ship appearing in Super Mario Galaxy).

And since people genuinely believe we should consider real life, that makes it even more canon than it already is implied.

 

[Crystanium]

Monado Shield takes any sort of force and counteracts it somehow. Tbh, it's an impenetrable, magical shield.

Is this the wave beam?

If so, that's definitely not like any sort of wave that is in real life. You really ought to just treat it as it is in the game otherwise you're making it into something it isn't.

Well, no, in reality, a wave would be invisible and you'd only see the effects. However, I suspect the weapons portrayed in the Metroid series are just a visual interpretation. Another example is the Light Beam. You can observe that as well. The only way you'd be able to see anything like these is if they were very powerful. In any case, the wave beam's properties are penetrating solid objects and translucent/transparent objects. To say that the Monado Shield is an impenetrable shield is a no-limits fallacy. If light can pass through it, then the wave beam should be able to as well.

Never said defeating Bowser is impressive (it is to a degree, but not entirely), but people seem unwilling to accept that she can't even take him, when she clearly with her 3D World limitations alone.

Sure, but that doesn't say much, since she never directly attacks him from what I've observed.

No, by regular he means she is not portrayed with her god-like powers in Mario Kart as it's unnecessary to show them off there (they don't factor into the game because it's a racing game). They try to make her a little more upbeat too in Mario Kart and 3D World, because they are fun multiplayer games for the family, while Super Mario Galaxy was a much deeper single-player, story driven game by comparison. She's no different to many other characters who have a limited amount of power depending on the context of the game (for example, Sonic running at the speed of a human athlete in the Olympic Games and other similar situations in those games), or who have tweaked personalities for the purpose of fitting into the game (Shadow would never participate in something like the Olympics in a canon game), even though Rosalina's personality isn't actually different in Mario Kart, they simply show a different side of her as stated in the manuals. Miyamoto is saying that "if you're character is super powerful and mysterious and is showing up in a party game, there is no need to be referencing that".

I'm not convinced with the given context from the quote you provided in your previous post. Sure, Rosalina isn't going to be like how she is in the games where she plays an important part of the story. You and I both agree that much. Our understanding of the quote you presented is where the difference is. She was large in Mario Kart Wii and made more appearances in the other Mario Kart games without being large. I think my interpretation makes more sense in light of the context. You shouldn't speak on behalf of Mr. Miyamoto.

However, Rosalina is still portrayed with her great power in Mario Golf and Smash, since it's appropriate to show it off there.

And that great power would be?

It's not that he has a death wish. Considering that Rosalina is his mother figure, he could have easily known the universe would be saved by her. Rosalina acts as if she has done it before too. So yeah, he accepted the inevitable - this universe is dying, and I'll see you again in the next one.

Considering that Rosalina is his mother figure and considering that he bonded with Mario, the best thing one could do to show his love is self-sacrifice. If the Luma knew the Universe would be saved by Rosalina, I see no reason for him to dive on into the supermassive black hole. That just doesn't make sense. It wouldn't even be inevitable.

In the 120 Star ending of Galaxy 1 (which takes place after the universe's rebirth), the Luma Mario had with him throughout the game (Young Master Luma, as he is referred to in Galaxy 2 by Lubba) appears out of the broken ship on the Gateway Planet, after Rosalina flies off in her Observatory. He then jumps into the air and disappears.

Fast forward to Galaxy 2, and Mario finds a lost Luma with memory loss at the beginning. He looks just like the Luma from Galaxy 1, and immediately takes a shine to Mario, and sits under his cap and grants him the spin attack, just like Galaxy 1.

So an ending similar to Ocarina of Time. It would seem the Luma in SMG would not have this memory loss. You could liken this to Majora's Mask where Tatl joins Link. It would seem to make sense, especially with Mr. Miyamoto part of these games. To be fair, the ending in SMG is unusual, but we never see Rosalina actually resetting the Universe. If this were the case, we should at least expect this being stated, even if implicitly.

Fast forward to Galaxy 2's ending, and Young Master Luma is re-united with Rosalina. Rosalina thanks Mario for "bringing back my lost child".

Considering Rosalina is a mother figure, this could very well just be another Luma, since all Lumas would be Rosalina's children. Unless this Luma is explicitly stated to be the same Luma from SMG.

The Luma said goodbye to Mario, accepted the fate of the universe, awoke in the new one but Rosalina had already left the planet so it was separated from her, he meets up with Mario again albeit with memory loss in Galaxy 2, and re-unites with Rosalina in Galaxy 2.[/quote]

Interesting thesis. I am expecting you to be true in what you say so there isn't any hidden motive. There are things that are unanswered in SMG, which we are trying to figure out.

So, the Luma didn't wave goodbye to Mario because he was sacrificing himself (because he never actually did), he was just waving goodbye, knowing they would meet again in the next universe.

You cannot speak on behalf of the Luma.

While I could make the argument that it is to some degree (though that's a whole other discussion), it doesn't really matter. As stated before, as long as something does not contradict canon, it's a natural extension of the character, and that's how we have been treating this discussion (it was agreed upon a few pages ago). Mario Golf is not canon, yet that's viable for Rosalina, as are many other non-canon games people are discussing here, so why shouldn't Smash be? Both were approved by her creators who also made her this god-like being in Galaxy, and her reasoning for being portrayed with more normalcy in Mario Kart has been officially explained.

Plus, Smash is the first game where we are expected to see beneath Rosalina's gown regularly (since she kicks a lot to attack, leading to it's exposure), and this is what they did with it, so as far I'm concerned, that's how her creators say it looks. Other games just fill it out with a black void or make it look like a cheap McDonald's toy, but you either can't see under it without taking her model to a 3D modelling program, or you inevitably end up seeing it under very specific camera conditions.

Sticking to "what the characters did in cutscenes" exclusively is terrible for the discussion, as a lot of it is context sensitive.

Some people might accept the standard you work with, but I haven't. We can only work with what is adapted from non-canon games when they are made canon. For example, Samus being the sole survivor of K-2L was never canon. It started in the Super Metroid comic from Nintendo Power. It wasn't until Metroid Prime used this tale that it became canon.

Seeing under Rosalina's dress and having a universe or whatever is hilarious, but I suspect it's because Nintendo still aims towards kids that they prevent seeing up the dress. Zelda wears tights and Peach wears some conservative looking pair of panties.

I also don't stick to what characters do in cut-scenes. Contrary to what people might think of my views, I take every form of data from the original source material and go from there. If cut-scenes make more sense, I'll use those. When it comes to characters being harmed in a game, even if this is during game play, I take it as, "The developers might not make a character die instantly, but the developers at least intended that this character can be harmed by -insert hazardous material-."

I meant without her suit. That's why I chose zero suit instead of normal.

Then no, but the Power Suit is part of Samus.

 

[MagiusNecros]

And the Power Star is something she literally just summons, being an ability associated with her. Like how Link can pull out bombs. It's a point in her favour, as she carries out the attack.

And Smash is canon, as I pointed out. No matter what way you swing it - Kid Icarus: Uprising questions get officially answered in Smash 4, linking the two canonically (they are made by the same person, after all). Smash 4 also references SSE, confirming that it has links to Kid Icarus' universe.

If Pit remembers all of this (such as still viewing Mario as a friend), and Palutena and Viridi are then able to talk about all of the fighters like they do, that means Nintendo, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man characters exist in the same universe. It would also explain the various other cross overs and Easter Eggs involving these characters (such as M&S at the Olympic Games, or Olimar's Ship appearing in Super Mario Galaxy).

And since people genuinely believe we should consider real life, that makes it even more canon than it already is implied.

Poor poor Ganondorf. Now that I know Smash is canon to all the Nintendo games I'm kinda sad. I wish Jiggypuff's Rest worked the same way in the Pokemon games too.

 

[Etc_Guy]

And as a bonus award, the character who canonically has the most powerful attack would then be . Because her Final Smash can do a total of 300% damage if you connect the Power Star properly on top of your opponent, with the surrounding Stars also dealing damage, and with the Power Star making a high launching explosion. No other attack comes close to this level of potential devastation in Smash

's waft can kill most medium weights at 70%. No Final Smash needed so it's viable in tournaments.

That's the Power Star though. Not Rosalina. Power Star = 1 Rosalina = 0 Also Smash noncanon. Making it rather irrelevant. Sorry guy.

That got back for her too.

I bet @ ChikoLad ignored my post about being more powerful than . I also knocked out 's only way of not being E tier. The reality benders look like a bunch of jokers to the Rool and there is nothing they could do about it since they're dead forever.

And the Power Star is something she literally just summons, being an ability associated with her. Like how Link can pull out bombs. It's a point in her favour, as she carries out the attack.

And Smash is canon, as I pointed out. No matter what way you swing it - Kid Icarus: Uprising questions get officially answered in Smash 4, linking the two canonically (they are made by the same person, after all). Smash 4 also references SSE, confirming that it has links to Kid Icarus' universe.

If Pit remembers all of this (such as still viewing Mario as a friend), and Palutena and Viridi are then able to talk about all of the fighters like they do, that means Nintendo, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man characters exist in the same universe. It would also explain the various other cross overs and Easter Eggs involving these characters (such as M&S at the Olympic Games, or Olimar's Ship appearing in Super Mario Galaxy).

And since people genuinely believe we should consider real life, that makes it even more canon than it already is implied.

You say that when Mario Kart isn't.
P.S: is far from broken than or sad to say.

Poor poor Ganondorf. Now that I know Smash is canon to all the Nintendo games I'm kinda sad. I wish Jiggypuff's Rest worked the same way in the Pokemon games too.

To 's defense, some people want him to use his Smash move-set in a Zelda game. But yea, if Smash was 100% true to everyone's source then we wouldn't have , ,,,,,,,,,, and . (I doubt that's all of them.)

 

[Los4Muros]

I'd say it's Samus.

Samus is light speed. Remember the light suit? It turns her into light, drops her down and she maintains the reaction time necessary to catch herself. She also casually creates sonic booms, light blasts comparable to a projectile miniature sun, pure dark matter, and miniature black holes all out of her arm cannon. She has unlimited jumps and causes immense damage to anything she comes into contact with,; vaporizing anything upon impact.

The power bomb itself aside from size is far significant to our nukes. If a human was dead center in the blast of some of the most intense nukes, they would be vaporized almost instantly. Their body would have to be engulfed. If the blast of a power bomb however touches a single atom of that human whether skin hair or clothes, his entire being will be vaporized instantly. It isn't instant in the games, but it's described as such in Metroid lore. The game is definitely slower paced than what Samus really moves at, so maybe they're implying she can react within an instant. Then again it could just be game limitations, but you distinctly see the body slowly evaporate and this begins from a single point and spreads to the whole body from that point so that representation seems fairly intentional to me. She's infused with Chozo DNA so she's technically a hybrid being, which is why she's capable of insane acrobatics and agility and superhuman strength and the morph ball and screw attack and all that good stuff. Mewtwo can destroy buildings with his mind? Funny, considering Samus has destroyed four planets, three space stations and practically every planet she visits and doesn't like.

Need more? Samus has three weapons completely forbidden by the Galactic Federation. The Zero Laser that's shown in Smash Bros is one. Samus requires concentration to sostain her suit. Fans believe Super Metroid Samus (Brawl) couldn't keep concentration which is why her suit fell. But the new Smash Bros 4 Samus (we think she's from Metroid 5) can, so she doesn't lose it anymore. After all, she did learn to deal with PTSD in Other M, where she can also put and take her suit on and off with just thinking about it.

But hey, don't forget the Omega Cannon from Metroid Prime Hunters. The cannon uses Gamma radiation to attack the enemy. But at explotion, all that has contact with the light it shoots, get's vaporized, including Samus. And the Hyper Beam. The Hyper Beam is used in Super Metroid. Which is thought to be her strongest weapon. Considering that even Power Bombs wouldn't tickle Mother Brain and the Hyper Beam kills her with just a few shots, we can guess the power of it. Some also theorize that the destruction of planet Zebes had something to do with the Hyper Beam mixing with the self destruction sequence. In the manga we can see that the Hyper Beam pierced many of the tunnels. Which would be Crateria, Brinstar and Torrian falling over Marridia and Norfair.

By the way, Samus has destroyed four planets and counting. Dark Aether being her first. That's right, she's able to enter the Higg's Field. Phaaze in Metroid Prime Corruption. Destroying the core, she broke the chain that kept the planet and Dark Samus in existence. Zebes using the Hyper Beam. SR388 using the BLS Station to crash on the planet. And the last planet I can't remmeber the name from Metroid Prime Hunters. And we're not counting the Bottle Ship or the Space Station where the Queen Parasite was found.

Then she has:
Chozo Blood
Metroid DNA
Mother Brain's Life Span.
Was Corrupted with Phazon.
Infected with X-Parasite
And a Power Suit which has biologically adapted to Samus.
And thanks to the Fusion Suit, her suit can absorb information to adquire new abilities.

I can't say she's the strongest of all time, but please do consider you're deeply underestimating her as you might be doing in this new Smash Bros. 4

And about the Monado Shield. The Monado Shield is a great defense, but Samus has two great weapons. First the Plasma Beam from Super Metroid can pierce any type of mass. He weapon is described to penetrate multiple enemies because of the capacity to go through armors and walls. But if this doesn,'t work. She could use her Nova Beam fom Metroid Prime 3. The Nova beam passes through any type of energy shields like the Phazite being the strongest one ever to exist in Metroid series. The Monado Shield also describes that it's power has a limit. If the attack is tronger than the shield's level, it won't be able to defend itself. In any case, if it blocks energy, the Dark Beam usses Black Matter, which isn't energy, in fact it's composed of anti-energy if we stick to science.

 

[ChikoLad]

She was large in Mario Kart Wii and made more appearances in the other Mario Kart games without being large.

She did continue to be large in future Mario Kart games. Miyamoto meant she is "not as large in Mario Kart as she is in Galaxy", which is true (same with Smash). However, Rosalina has been a heavyweight in every Mario Kart game she has been in. Her vehicles are still physically bigger than Peach's because of it, and she's still noticeably bigger than Peach, just not to the same degree as in Galaxy. She's always in the same class as Donkey Kong.

And that great power would be?

She demonstrates her "I'm a god" side in that to celebrate scoring a Birdie, she teleports into space and summons a rain of shooting stars. Also does the same but summons Lumas instead in her Eagle animation.

Considering that Rosalina is his mother figure and considering that he bonded with Mario, the best thing one could do to show his love is self-sacrifice. If the Luma knew the Universe would be saved by Rosalina, I see no reason for him to dive on into the supermassive black hole. That just doesn't make sense. It wouldn't even be inevitable.

So you're trying to say he wouldn't inevitably get sucked into a black hole that he is actually relatively close to?

It would seem the Luma in SMG would not have this memory loss.

It did, it was stated that it was "confused", didn't know where it was (it should have if it didn't have memory loss - Young Master Luma was on the Mushroom Kingdom at the beginning of Galaxy 1 too, in Peach's arms - he was the "surprise" she had for Mario) and it didn't actually know who Mario was at the time. Seeing Mario probably evoked a vague sense of familiarity for him, though (as that would happen if you saw somebody you used to know after losing your memory).

Considering Rosalina is a mother figure, this could very well just be another Luma, since all Lumas would be Rosalina's children. Unless this Luma is explicitly stated to be the same Luma from SMG.

No, because there are never any other White Lumas besides Young Master Luma. He's a one of a kind, special Luma.

You cannot speak on behalf of the Luma.

I guess you cannot speak on behalf of Samus either, or we can't speak on behalf of anyone and this thread should be closed.

but I suspect it's because Nintendo still aims towards kids that they prevent seeing up the dress. Zelda wears tights and Peach wears some conservative looking pair of panties.

Peach has her legs censored by a void in Smash 4 (which goes away in Metal form). If it was just a simple matter of censorship, Rosalina would have just had that too. But no, they explain something big about the character, and show that she incorporates it into combat.

Poor poor Ganondorf. Now that I know Smash is canon to all the Nintendo games I'm kinda sad. I wish Jiggypuff's Rest worked the same way in the Pokemon games too.

Master Hand is the embodiment of creation in the Smash Bros world.

As such, powers being "different" than normal is easily explained by that.

 

[Reila]

At this point, I think one of the mods should change sonicbrawler's username to rosalinabrawler

I mean, seriously lol

 

[MagiusNecros]

Master Hand is the embodiment of creation in the Smash Bros world.

As such, powers being "different" than normal is easily explained by that.

Uh....huh. Sounds like a cop out answer.

 

[ChikoLad]

At this point, I think one of the mods should change sonicbrawler's username to rosalinabrawler

I mean, seriously lol

Rosalina wasn't in Brawl tho??????????

Also I like how I'm singled out when everyone is doing the exact same thing as me.

Samusryn
MunoSonic
Etc_K.Rool_Guy

etc, etc.

Not to mention that people generally just try to argue against characters they barely took the time to research and as such, use faulty, repetitive arguments or pull cheap "HIS AVATAR IS ROSALINA DON'T LISTEN TO HIM HE CLEARLY WOULDN'T KNOW". Of course I have more to say on Rosalina, Sonic, Kirby, than say, the Fire Emblem characters, as I research those characters myself all of the time and play their games, while I have yet to touch FE beyond the Awakening demo.

I haven't been trying argue against Samus' standalone power (I think Rosalina would beat her largely for the same reasons Samus mains would hate fighting Rosalina in Smash though, only to an even worse degree).

My favourtie part is my interpretation is far from uncommon amongst people who put time into this character.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You are getting singled out because of your high horse Rosalina the best I am flawless attitude. While downplaying any slur against her and your only defense is thing happens in Smash and I deem it canon because it suits my agenda and Sakurai the god that dictates my reason said stuff so it must be true. Because apparently Rosalina is the Universe. Grumpity grump grump.

 

[Etc_Guy]

I haven't been trying argue against Samus' standalone power (I think Rosalina would beat her largely for the same reasons Samus mains would hate fighting Rosalina in Smash though, only to an even worse degree).

Wait a second. I doubt 's standalone power can compete with anyone. Even Cloud 'n Candy, one of the easiest bosses in Nintendo history would be able to one shot her without a spiffy "shield."

You are getting singled out because of your high horse Rosalina the best I am flawless attitude. While downplaying any slur against her and your only defense is thing happens in Smash and I deem it canon because it suits my agenda and Sakurai the god that dictates my reason said stuff so it must be true. Because apparently Rosalina is the Universe. Grumpity grump grump.

He's right. If Smash is the only place to get info then why bother. Almost all of 's attacks are directly from, or inspired by the G&W games. There for Mr. Game and Watch is more worth defending.

 

[ChikoLad]

You are getting singled out because of your high horse Rosalina the best I am flawless attitude. While downplaying any slur against her and your only defense is thing happens in Smash and I deem it canon because it suits my agenda and Sakurai the god that dictates my reason said stuff so it must be true. Because apparently Rosalina is the Universe. Grumpity grump grump.

Accept I have pointed out flaws in her character.

How am I on a high horse? You are literally just getting grumpy with me and saying anything I say is a "cop out" and what not because you can't take someone actually fleshing out a decent point, while you sit there passively disagreeing with everything because you feel like it, because you cannot comprehend the idea of anything other than a monster, big bad power suit, or JRPG anime style ****boy being strong or powerful (which seems to be a prevalent mindset in the gaming community), and then make brash assumptions about me. And I am the one who has an agenda?

Also, the whole point about "real life is easily canon if people want it to be" was said because I saw many people suggesting it on my many periods of visiting this thread, and despite the fact I don't give two craps about Diddy Kong, I said he'd be the most powerful right now in that scenario. Again, what agenda?

And while I said Rosalina would also have the strongest POTENTIAL in an attack in that scenario, "potential" is the keyword, as getting the move to work like that takes some skill and precision (and maybe a degree of luck). Again, pointing out a flaw.

Having an agenda would be literally chasing down everyone I see who speaks against Rosalina. I don't. People keep quoting my posts to try and counter my points, and I point out flaws in their theory when I see them. If one were to say to me "I disagree with your point, but I see the truth in it and see your point, and I think it's OK for you to continue thinking that", I would be leave it at that and return the same to them. Heck, often times I don't come back to this thread for a while even when someone quotes me because I'm not bothered. Again, what agenda?

Also, Rosalina is not the only character I have vouched for or spoken up against to point out a flaw (like when MunoMario mistook my point on Lumas being able to generate Star Bits as being indefinite, and me correcting him and saying that it wasn't the case and was on a much smaller scale). I have been doing the same with Sonic, Kirby, Mario, etc.

And finally, everyone has been using their own different logic and terms in this thread, including you, which is why there are disagreements to begin with. Dryn just explained his line of logic above. MunoMario doesn't regard developer interviews and believes they are irrelevant, even if a developer straight up says something is not canon. You explained your own terms. Some people want to take real life as part of canon. And I have a mix and match of pretty much what everyone else has, just never to an extreme. Again, why am I being singled out?

 

[warionumbah2]

You are getting singled out because of your high horse Rosalina the best I am flawless attitude. While downplaying any slur against her and your only defense is thing happens in Smash and I deem it canon because it suits my agenda and Sakurai the god that dictates my reason said stuff so it must be true. Because apparently Rosalina is the Universe. Grumpity grump grump.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think the point is all things considered Rosalina is apparently the strongest. So basically the question has been answered and there is no merit in any further discussion.

 

[ChikoLad]

It should also be noted that I actually initially was saying Rosalina and Shulk were about equal for the longest time and had stuck with that (and again, I don't give a crap about Shulk since I've not played Xenoblade and merely see his Smash memes as funny right now, yet I was still willing to consider him as powerful as a character who just so happens to be one I really love even without her powers, so again, what agenda?), but when @ warionumbah2 was trying to say "lol rosa is weaksauce and shulk is beast", he actually put forward points that backed Rosalina up and made Shulk seem weaker than I initially interpreted, and more people have started pointing out more problems for Shulk since then (like the limitations of Shield).

So I don't see where you get off acting as if I'm in the wrong, and trying to silently single me out by agreeing with someone who was making a completely misinformed/biased observation about me, when I actually viewed another character as equal to her until you made a very poor case for Shulk. I know you've said you don't like me for whatever reason in another topic (I've barely interacted with you so I don't know why, and quite honestly it's not really my concern - if people choose to dislike me as a person based off of a few forum posts about video games, that's m'kay), but c'mon, that's just low.

People are free to believe what they want, I'm merely posting what I think, just like everyone else. It just so happens that people love to quote my posts about Rosalina, and choose to ignore me when I talk about any other character (I've tried engaging in conversation about other characters multiple times and even suggested organisational changes to the thread because I am sick of having to repeat my thoughts on Rosalina), hence it always comes back to her (I was absent from this thread for weeks at least twice, and only came back because I got an alert from someone quoting an old post of mine about Rosalina). If you're trying to get my approval on your favourite character being strong or something, you don't need it. If you're trying to convince me Rosalina is weaker than I think she is, don't bother, because my opinion is not going to change with that, as I have went over every relevant detail about her with a fine toothed comb to come to my conclusion on the character, and I believe my case is solid. One of the best things about her as a character though, is that she is open to interpretation. She's mysterious, but we know just enough about her to get a solid idea of what she can do and how she is in general, but also form varied interpretations on the character. Which is why you can always just say "I agree to disagree" to my points. The same applies to a lot of other characters honestly (I think I need to totally re-evaluate Yoshi, for example).

And once again, everyone seems to view the topic differently, but enforcing one way of looking at the thread would not only create a lot of bias in favour of certain characters, but it would also make the discussion much more shallow.

------

And with that, I have a Kirby question that I don't think I've seen people talk about.

I have not completed Kirby 64, but in that game, Kirby had the ability to mix and match the copy abilities he was using. If there was nothing explicitly explaining in canon why he doesn't have that ability in other games, should it not factor in to this topic? He was able to do some really interesting stuff with that.

 

[Etc_Guy]

And once again, everyone seems to view the topic differently, but enforcing one way of looking at the thread would not only create a lot of bias in favour of certain characters, but it would also make the discussion much more shallow.

Well, you did only totally only defended and absolutely not even looked at anyone else. Meanwhile, is still waiting to be shined on from the beginning of the thread.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well, you did only totally only defended and absolutely not even looked at anyone else. Meanwhile, is still waiting to be shined on from the beginning of the thread.

I talked about Sonic, Kirby, Mario, and more too.

And much earlier in the thread, I made a tier list that defended multiple characters people wanted to pass off as weak (Pit and Captain Falcon, for example).

 

[warionumbah2]

Apparently being number 2 is weak sauce, that's a hard blow to beta males that's not nice sonicB.

 

[ChikoLad]

Apparently being number 2 is weak sauce, that's a hard blow to beta males that's not nice sonicB.

Except it was you who more or less said it in a "it doesn't mean much" sense.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

All of the characters' moves are referenced in the instruction booklet of the game, and in the tips.

True, but I don't think galaxies are actually that small, so perhaps the "cosmos" are just a sort of mini-galaxy-explosion-thing generator.

That would sort of work against it being the actual cosmos the way I see it, since I can't imagine how that would work anatomy-wise. I think it's more of a layer of some sort of galactic material that her legs are passing through.

I think the simpler solution is that that cosmos/galactic material (or whatever you want to call it) exists around her legs. Unless that's what you were trying to say.

 

[Crystanium]

I'll reply to you tomorrow, sonicbrawler. For now, everyone should observe how a Metroid fan, whose favorite fictional character is Samus Aran, is as unbiased as possible.

Samus is light speed. Remember the light suit? It turns her into light, drops her down and she maintains the reaction time necessary to catch herself.

She drops out of the Energy Controller, but that doesn't mean she has nanonsecond reaction time. For all we know, once she's reached her destination through the use of a light shaft, she's already stationary and proceeds from there. If we take just the Metroid Prime trilogy alone, all the data demonstrates that Samus does not have nanosecond reaction time.

At best, she has improved reaction time to where she can dodge bullets. Turning at the right time when using the Speed Booster would require for her to avoid crashing, so we can establish that much. Consider also the Alpha Blogg, which fires "sonic stun blasts". This would seem to at least suggest these are traveling at the speed of sound, but in water, sound travels faster than 343 m/s (768 mi/h). Though Wikipedia has no citation for seawater speed, it says it travels 1,560 m/s (3,492.94 mi/h), but in freshwater it's 1,497 m/s (3,351.88 mi/h).

She also casually creates sonic booms, light blasts comparable to a projectile miniature sun, pure dark matter, and miniature black holes all out of her arm cannon. She has unlimited jumps and causes immense damage to anything she comes into contact with,; vaporizing anything upon impact.

Sonic booms are created by Samus' speed booster, yes. Her Sunburst is probably supposed to be a miniature star based on the fact that the Light Beam's color is white (white light is approximately 5,000 K; the surface of the Sun is actually white and 5,778 K). The word "Sun" probably also suggests this as well. Perhaps the Darkburst is supposed to be a black hole, if not just a vortex of some sort, as it sends people into a dark dimension. If anything, though, the Sonic Boom is more impressive (this is what you must have meant). According to Mark Pacini, who worked on Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, the Sonic Boom "distorts time and space".

The game is definitely slower paced than what Samus really moves at, so maybe they're implying she can react within an instant.

We don't need to assume that everything moving at a slower pace is just how Samus sees the world around her. It's just how the game engine works. We know from cut-scenes that Samus jumps higher, runs faster, and shoots faster. Heck, in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, an uncharged power beam in the cut-scenes knock Pirate Troopers back around 3 meters away. Bullets cannot even do that to humans. They just drop.

Funny, considering Samus has destroyed four planets, three space stations and practically every planet she visits and doesn't like.

Samus didn't destroy four planets. In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Dark Aether was destroyed because it lost all of the energy, making it unstable. Sure, Samus played a part in this, but she only set it off. The rest was just a chain reaction. In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Samus defeated Dark Samus after she merged with the Aurora Unit, who was connected to planet Phaaze. Again, not a direct thing, only setting the sequence. In Super Metroid, planet Zebes blew up because Mother Brain was defeated. Once again, Samus only started the sequence. Finally, in Metroid Fusion, Samus used the ship's propulsion sequence to send it to planet SR388. Samus played a direct part there, but the destruction wasn't by her own weaponry.

The Zero Laser that's shown in Smash Bros is one. Samus requires concentration to sostain her suit. Fans believe Super Metroid Samus (Brawl) couldn't keep concentration which is why her suit fell. But the new Smash Bros 4 Samus (we think she's from Metroid 5) can, so she doesn't lose it anymore. After all, she did learn to deal with PTSD in Other M, where she can also put and take her suit on and off with just thinking about it.

The Zero Laser has never been demonstrated in any of the Metroid games, only Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Wii U.

But hey, don't forget the Omega Cannon from Metroid Prime Hunters. The cannon uses Gamma radiation to attack the enemy.

The Omega Cannon is a WMD and probably the source of the gamma radiation Samus' gunship detects. Makes sense. It would be one of the more powerful weapons Samus has ever used, but I think the power bomb is the most destructive of them all.

And the Hyper Beam. The Hyper Beam is used in Super Metroid. Which is thought to be her strongest weapon. Considering that even Power Bombs wouldn't tickle Mother Brain and the Hyper Beam kills her with just a few shots, we can guess the power of it. Some also theorize that the destruction of planet Zebes had something to do with the Hyper Beam mixing with the self destruction sequence. In the manga we can see that the Hyper Beam pierced many of the tunnels. Which would be Crateria, Brinstar and Torrian falling over Marridia and Norfair.

The Hyper Beam is thought to be Samus' most powerful weapon, sure, but as for power bombs not even tickling Mother Brain, chances are it doesn't affect Mother Brain for the same reason it doesn't affect Ridley, who is vulnerable to the plasma beam. Of course, there are enemies in the Metroid series who can withstand power bombs. These are Desbrachians, who are awakened by power bombs. They retreat into their shells if Samus uses another power bomb.

By the way, Samus has destroyed four planets and counting. Dark Aether being her first. That's right, she's able to enter the Higg's Field. Phaaze in Metroid Prime Corruption. Destroying the core, she broke the chain that kept the planet and Dark Samus in existence. Zebes using the Hyper Beam. SR388 using the BLS Station to crash on the planet. And the last planet I can't remmeber the name from Metroid Prime Hunters. And we're not counting the Bottle Ship or the Space Station where the Queen Parasite was found.

Then she has:
Chozo Blood
Metroid DNA
Mother Brain's Life Span.[/quote]

There's no evidence of this. However, should Yoshio Sakamoto accept the Chozo having extended longevity (which he does), then the fact that Samus is integrated with Chozo DNA would probably mean she'll live longer than the average human.

And about the Monado Shield. The Monado Shield is a great defense, but Samus has two great weapons. First the Plasma Beam from Super Metroid can pierce any type of mass.

The plasma beam cannot pierce any type of material. Maybe in Super Metroid. Who knows? But if the wave beam is supposed to be an actual electromagnetic wave of some sort, then objects with high density (like lead) would protect them from Samus. The plasma beam pierces enemies. The wave beam pierces most solid objects.

The Nova beam passes through any type of energy shields like the Phazite being the strongest one ever to exist in Metroid series.

This is what further makes me suspect the wave beam is some sort of electromagnetic weapon. The Nova Beam takes the design that the Wave Beam has in Metroid Prime. The Nova Beam fires "high-frequency" beams. This is a "range of radio frequency electromagnetic waves (radio waves) between 3 and 30 MHz". (High frequency - Wikipedia)

 

[Munomario777]

I think the simpler solution is that that cosmos/galactic material (or whatever you want to call it) exists around her legs. Unless that's what you were trying to say.

I was thinking more between her legs and her dress, since Mario Kart has her without the dress, and the galactic material isn't present (it's arguable that the white layer in that game could be a form of the material, as well).

 

[ChikoLad]

I was thinking more between her legs and her dress, since Mario Kart has her without the dress, and the galactic material isn't present (it's arguable that the white layer in that game could be a form of the material, as well).

The cosmos beneath her gown clearly has depth to it though. It's like looking through a window, and her legs fade into it. It's deliberate, and has been referenced by the director. Also, the cosmos does not bend when the dress does. It's not simply magic material she has under there, it's straight up a portal to another universe, so to speak.

The white material in MK8, is just an untextured part of her model, as described previously.

 

[Munomario777]

Well the developer of Smash himself outright said it could. But that's right, you don't listen to "Word of God", I forgot (yet I am the one twisting things).

Smash is canon because it has story elements with a definite link to various other games. Mario Kart does not, it's a party game with no given context or in-universe reason for existing. At the very least, you cannot deny that Smash has a canon. And you cannot deny that it has ties to Kid Icarus canon or real life (since people were bringing up that "R.O.B is the strongest because he saved the industry IRL" point).

I didn't use a glitch as an argument, merely to further prove something that was already proven. Rosalina's legs are implied to be fading into the universe beneath her gown:

But you can mess around with the dress physics to make it go awry, to show that the model for her legs literally is separate to her dress and that it doesn't go past the fade.

Also, I never said the MK8 thing was a glitch. It isn't. It's just a part of her they lazily modelled in because, as basic game design theory states, if something is not going to be seen by the player or is not intended to be, you generally don't model it in. Similar to how only the visible side of the various buildings in the background of a level would be modelled in. Doesn't actually mean they are supposed to be like that in-universe.

The only "in-universe", official explanation for what's under Rosalina's gown is that she has a cosmos under there. So that's what it is.

At least I'm not contradicting an earlier statement of mine.

Mario Kart links to the Mario and DK franchises (and R.O.B. links it to real life as well).

Glitches are not canon. If glitches are canon, then many characters can clip through solid objects. If glitches are canon, then Mario can travel at extreme speeds by sliding up some stairs on his bottom (Mario 64 backwards long jump). If glitches are canon, Sonic can do all this crazy stuff. Glitches are not canon; thus, they have no authority in this thread.

I was referring to your argument that Galaxy's lack of cosmos was irrelevant because it was unintended by the developers for players to see it. Then you use the dress physics glitch as an argument/support/whatever. The backs of buildings, which are normally out of sight, aren't modelled in, just like Rosalina's upper legs, which are normally out of sight, aren't modelled in.

The cosmos beneath her gown clearly has depth to it though. It's like looking through a window, and her legs fade into it. It's deliberate, and has been referenced by the director. Also, the cosmos does not bend when the dress does. It's not simply magic material she has under there, it's straight up a portal to another universe, so to speak.

The white material in MK8, is just an untextured part of her model, as described previously.

The End Portals in Minecraft have depth too, yet they're paper-thin (if you break the portal frames in Creative you can see this). I agree with the portal thing, as I said previously. I meant "material" as the substance used to make the portal/the portal itself.

I was thinking it would be more of the portal becoming white, maybe to restrain her powers during kart racing? Other than that, yeah, I'd say it's just untextured.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Unigown pretty much means Rosalina never has to use the Bathroom. But then again she is letting out Andromeda farts left and right. So don't take my word for it.

 

[warionumbah2]

Except it was you who more or less said it in a "it doesn't mean much" sense.

I said "2 is not a winner" and "3 no one remembers". You literally took out your BB gun and fired shots at Beta males and anyone who isn't number 1. That my friend is mean.

 

[ChikoLad]

At least I'm not contradicting an earlier statement of mine.

Mario Kart links to the Mario and DK franchises (and R.O.B. links it to real life as well).

Glitches are not canon. If glitches are canon, then many characters can clip through solid objects. If glitches are canon, then Mario can travel at extreme speeds by sliding up some stairs on his bottom (Mario 64 backwards long jump). If glitches are canon, Sonic can do all this crazy stuff. Glitches are not canon; thus, they have no authority in this thread.

I was referring to your argument that Galaxy's lack of cosmos was irrelevant because it was unintended by the developers for players to see it. Then you use the dress physics glitch as an argument/support/whatever. The backs of buildings, which are normally out of sight, aren't modelled in, just like Rosalina's upper legs, which are normally out of sight, aren't modelled in.

The End Portals in Minecraft have depth too, yet they're paper-thin (if you break the portal frames in Creative you can see this). I agree with the portal thing, as I said previously. I meant "material" as the substance used to make the portal/the portal itself.

I was thinking it would be more of the portal becoming white, maybe to restrain her powers during kart racing? Other than that, yeah, I'd say it's just untextured.

It's not a glitch though, it's just imperfect cloth physics. A glitch is something that is not working as intended by the code. Rosalina's dress physics are, they just are not coded with 100% realism. Because cloth physics take a huge amount of work to perfect, and don't matter much in a game as hectic as Smash. I referred to it as a glitch by mistake.

Rosalina's legs fade into the cosmos. That is explicitly how it's supposed to be as I showed in my close up. But if for some reason you don't believe that, just make her dress move extremely out of the way, and the fade effect is still there. Therefore, the legs are fading into the universe beneath her gown, with the gown being like the TARDIS.

Again, Sakurai said that's how it is, it's the only official explanation behind what is under there (keeping in mind that if she was just a normal gal with a normal dress, they would never highlight this topic, as we would just assume it's a regular dress), and Koizumi gave him approval on the matter. So it's canon.

Also Mario Kart merely has aesthetic references to other games, and even contradicts those games (such as location appearances). It doesn't have any story based link to the other games, unlike there being a vague timeline between Mario and DK, or how Pit remembers Subspace events in Smash 4, but then we also have Palutena and Viridi having knowledge of the other characters, and an unexplained point in Uprising being explained in Smash 4.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The Kid Icarus stuff was already explained. Phosphora was already holding onto the Chariot which was mentioned ingame. And KIU breaks the 4th wall a lot so them knowing about Smash isn't that Farfetch'd. And Dark Pit is the opposite of Pit so obviously he sides with the person in the best seat against Palutena. Which right now is Viridi. Since Hades is without a physical body.

 

[ChikoLad]

The Kid Icarus stuff was already explained. Phosphora was already holding onto the Chariot which was mentioned ingame. And KIU breaks the 4th wall a lot so them knowing about Smash isn't that Farfetch'd. And Dark Pit is the opposite of Pit so obviously he sides with the person in the best seat against Palutena. Which right now is Viridi. Since Hades is without a physical body.

The Dark Pit point was not explained at all in Uprising, and the last interaction between Pit and Dark Pit we saw was a friendly one, so at the time, assuming Dark Pit wanted to take down Pit would not make sense to assume. In the ending, he flew off without a word, and then Smash 4 explains to us where he actually went and why he went there.

Not to mention that the Metroid series has always been linked to Kid Icarus even before Uprising. A staple enemy of the Kid Icarus franchise is the Komayto, which bares a striking resemblance to Metroids, and in Uprising, behaves exactly like them too. However, it doesn't just stop there. Komayto comes from the Japanese "Kometo", which is short for "Kometoroido", which literally translates to "Metroid Child". Furthermore, there is a scene in Uprising where Pit says that Komayto "look an awful lot like Metroids". Viridi then tries to tell him to keep his voice down and that she can't hear him, and makes a transparent, poor attempt at covering up the fact the two universes are connected.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's actually just a reference because Sakamoto was the Game Designer for the Original Kid Icarus and Metroid.

 

[Munomario777]

It's not a glitch though, it's just imperfect cloth physics. A glitch is something that is not working as intended by the code. Rosalina's dress physics are, they just are not coded with 100% realism. Because cloth physics take a huge amount of work to perfect, and don't matter much in a game as hectic as Smash. I referred to it as a glitch by mistake.

Rosalina's legs fade into the cosmos. That is explicitly how it's supposed to be as I showed in my close up. But if for some reason you don't believe that, just make her dress move extremely out of the way, and the fade effect is still there. Therefore, the legs are fading into the universe beneath her gown, with the gown being like the TARDIS.

Again, Sakurai said that's how it is, it's the only official explanation behind what is under there (keeping in mind that if she was just a normal gal with a normal dress, they would never highlight this topic, as we would just assume it's a regular dress), and Koizumi gave him approval on the matter. So it's canon.

Also Mario Kart merely has aesthetic references to other games, and even contradicts those games (such as location appearances). It doesn't have any story based link to the other games, unlike there being a vague timeline between Mario and DK, or how Pit remembers Subspace events in Smash 4, but then we also have Palutena and Viridi having knowledge of the other characters, and an unexplained point in Uprising being explained in Smash 4.

Glitches are unintended features. The dress physics messing up is an unintended feature. Backwards long jump is to Mario's long jump as the fade effect dress thing is to the dress physics.

I never said it was a normal dress. I said it was a dress with a portal inside of it (which isn't a feature of normal dresses, as far as I'm aware).

Mario Kart has many connections to Mario games (for instance, Luigi's mansion in Double Dash's Luigi Circuit). Pit remembers Subspace in a Smash game, not a Kid Icarus game (AFAIK). Therefore, there's no crossover there between Subspace and Kid Icarus.

Anyway, I'm dropping the subject, since it's going around in circles at this point.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Not to mention that the Metroid series has always been linked to Kid Icarus even before Uprising. A staple enemy of the Kid Icarus franchise is the Komayto, which bares a striking resemblance to Metroids, and in Uprising, behaves exactly like them too. However, it doesn't just stop there. Komayto comes from the Japanese "Kometo", which is short for "Kometoroido", which literally translates to "Metroid Child". Furthermore, there is a scene in Uprising where Pit says that Komayto "look an awful lot like Metroids". Viridi then tries to tell him to keep his voice down and that she can't hear him, and makes a transparent, poor attempt at covering up the fact the two universes are connected.

By that logic the Kirby and Mario verse are connected too. Gordos appeared in Super Mario Land 2: The 6 Golden Coins acting exactly like they did in Dream Land.

 

[Munomario777]

By that logic the Kirby and Mario verse are connected too. Gordos appeared in Super Mario Land 2: The 6 Golden Coins acting exactly like they did in Dream Land.

Samus appears in Mario RPG. Samus also appears in Kirby Super Star. Thus, they are connected.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Samus appears in Mario RPG. Samus also appears in Kirby Super Star. Thus, they are connected.

Forgot about RPG, but did also appear in DL3 along with .

 

[ChikoLad]

Glitches are unintended features. The dress physics messing up is an unintended feature. Backwards long jump is to Mario's long jump as the fade effect dress thing is to the dress physics.

I never said it was a normal dress. I said it was a dress with a portal inside of it (which isn't a feature of normal dresses, as far as I'm aware).

Mario Kart has many connections to Mario games (for instance, Luigi's mansion in Double Dash's Luigi Circuit). Pit remembers Subspace in a Smash game, not a Kid Icarus game (AFAIK). Therefore, there's no crossover there between Subspace and Kid Icarus.

Anyway, I'm dropping the subject, since it's going around in circles at this point.

No it isn't. Cloth physics are just impossible to get perfectly correct in a game like Smash, which can lead to the fade effect being clear as day, but you can still see it even when it's working properly, as I posted an image of above.

Then why does Pit remember Smash in Uprising too ("I used them in the last brawl" "Super Bash Sisters? I think you mean Super Smash Bros")? Why does he also have Palutena's Bow in Uprising, which debuted in Brawl (and was given to him by Palutena during the Subspace Emissary)?

Furthermore, how come Mushroomy Kingdom is World 1-1 after many years of time has passed?

There are so many elaborate links between Nintendo's games, including Smash, that it's kind of nonsense to deny their connections. It's different when it's a cute subtle reference, but when characters are appearing in other games (Samus in Mario RPG, a biological relative of Metroids in Kid Icarus), iconic things associated with characters appearing in other games (Olimar's Ship as a mandatory, traversable planet in Space Junk Galaxy, Samus' Ship in DK: Tropical Freeze), and Smash outright disclosing unanswered questions about other games, and characters from those games remembering Subspace (it's referenced multiple times), there is no way you can deny the events of Smash actually taking place.

And the Luigi's Mansion in Mario Kart isn't like the real one at all, therefore it's not canon. Layout is totally different and it's smaller. Like I said, Mario Kart is just a game that bases it's appearance off of other games, yet has no story based link to even a main series Mario game. I'm pretty sure Rosalina doesn't have an Ice World at all, and I'm pretty sure the Comet Observatory is not stuck in ice.

I mean, it wouldn't even make a difference if it was canon anyway, because as I've already pointed out, Rosalina's dress is like that in Mario Kart because you were never intended to see up it or in other Mario games either, while you are in Smash. I don't doubt that Mario and friends go kart racing, but it doesn't have any relevance to any timeline as it never goes out of it's way to fit in anywhere, especially since paradoxes like the babies exist.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So Tabuu. How high up is he on the List of Power? As a one off villain he controlled even Master Hand.

 

[ChikoLad]

So Tabuu. How high up is he on the List of Power? As a one off villain he controlled even Master Hand.

Well it only took Sonic's Spin Dash to take out his wings which power his ultimate attack, and you can even defeat him just fine in the game, even though a lot of characters are limited in power to make Smash as fair as possible.

So not that great honestly. He's more of a strategist.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Next up is Mr Resetti. With the ability to wipe your save data and being completely invincible and walls of text over both his game he heirs from and in Smash he's basically unbeatable.