Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ChikoLad]

anyone can cripple Rosalina quickly by taking away the lumas.

Actually, that's not the case. At all. None of what she does in other games relies on or incorporates Lumas beyond aesthetics.

However, even in Smash, this isn't even the case. Rosalina's pretty solid even without Lumas. And she utterly disrespects Master Core:

She be cherry picking those projectiles like it's nothing.

-------------

This might be relevant to Link fans (not a big fan of Game Theory anymore but this one doesn't seem too bad). It's literally this thread, applied to the various Links:

 

[Meta-Kraid]

I think the pokemon would come first, then maybe samus / starfox characters

Mewtwo can't even touch Ganondorf, most other characters can't either. The Pokemon are really hard to place Jigglypuff can not only survive a meteor shower, but she doesn't even feel it. Greninja can alter his body to any state that his body has even a trace of and dish out a disturbing amount of damage. Lucario's aura abilities are a little confusing, but no doubt are extremely powerful. Samus makes sense being up that high though.

Actually, that's not the case. At all. None of what she does in other games relies on or incorporates Lumas beyond aesthetics.

However, even in Smash, this isn't even the case. Rosalina's pretty solid even without Lumas. And she utterly disrespects Master Core:

I wa under the assumption that most of her powers used lumas as a vessel.

 

[ChikoLad]

Nah, Lumas are not always inherently linked to Rosalina. She adopts them if they want to be with her, but some Lumas are independent. Lubba seems like he once knew Rosalina, but had at some point, decided to go his own way. And he has his own crew of Lumas that he looks after, independent of Rosalina.

Rosalina doesn't depend on them for power at all, she just adopts many of them and treats them as if they were her own. The fact she uses Lumas at all in Smash is a nice reference to the bond she shares with Lumas.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I'm not trying to disrupt any discussions here, but which characters haven't had any substantial rating done to them yet?

Villager and Pac-Man seem right on the mark for that.

 

[Crystanium]

All right, I read your arguments for Rosalina, but none were convincing. I would have replied, but Smash World Forums acted up on me again, so I don't feel like typing all that all over again. Moving along . . .

It isn't an identity disorder, Sonic just has been under many different writers, even within the main series, which has led to some inconsistent portrayals at times. The current writers of Sonic games (who debuted in Colours) have actually fully admitted to not playing or experiencing much of Sonic before, hence why some of their poor decisions for the character (such as his over-exaggerated arrogance in recent games) exist in the first place.

Feel free to provide the interview of this.

Sonic has been hinted at being able to move faster than the speed of light in his default form ("Light Speed Dash", and "Light Speed Attack" are two of his named abilities, for example).

Also Super Sonic is literally invincible. Sonic cannot be damaged within his Super form.

Also, he survives being within the Earth's core even in his normal form.

Yeah, I am doubting those because for Shadow, it's what, Air Speed Dash? Taking that literally would mean Shadow is traveling at whatever speed air travels, which varies.

Saying Super Sonic is literally invincible and cannot be damaged is a no-limits fallacy. In the Super Metroid manual, it says the Speed Booster makes Samus invincible, but really? And besides, if Super Sonic hasn't demonstrated the ability to survive a nuclear explosion, then chances are he's vulnerable.

As for this Earth's core in his normal form, do you have a link? I can't just accept what you say without any evidence.

 

[Trisongs]

I am surprised that you guys aren't talking about the that exists in real life. If this robot was able to reprogram video games it would be able to nerf each individual character home game as well as smash faster then any human could dream. He also has an army of fellow rob the robots(from his production line). In my opinion nothing in a video game can beat real life and literally breaks the third wall in mario kart and smash bros

 

[IvanQuote]

All right, I read your arguments for Rosalina, but none were convincing. I would have replied, but Smash World Forums acted up on me again, so I don't feel like typing all that all over again. Moving along . . .



Feel free to provide the interview of this.



Yeah, I am doubting those because for Shadow, it's what, Air Speed Dash? Taking that literally would mean Shadow is traveling at whatever speed air travels, which varies.

Saying Super Sonic is literally invincible and cannot be damaged is a no-limits fallacy. In the Super Metroid manual, it says the Speed Booster makes Samus invincible, but really? And besides, if Super Sonic hasn't demonstrated the ability to survive a nuclear explosion, then chances are he's vulnerable.

As for this Earth's core in his normal form, do you have a link? I can't just accept what you say without any evidence.

Pretty sure Shadow's is the Light Dash as well; the equipment needed to use it is called "Air Shoes" and "Air Chip", probably due to his jet skates.

You're right about Super's limited invincibility tho, but it appears as if he has gotten (obviously) stronger as he grows older. Ex. In Sonic 3, he could be knocked out of super form by being slammed hard enough into a platform. In '06, everything the final boss does hurts you, but it was a god controlling time and required 3 super beings to even incapacitate it. Same with the Sonic Unleashed one. In Rush, the final (robot) boss could harm him with missiles (this has never happened before or after with missiles, so god knows what they were made of), tearing a rift in space, or by slamming him between two hands. Also there's the intro cutscene to Unleashed where Eggman electrocutes the chaos emeralds out of him. In short, it appears as if he's given significantly increased resistance, but strong enough attacks will harm or revert him.

With regard to the Earth's core, that was from Unleased (tho admittedly it looks more like the mantle). I can't find a clear picture of it, but it is worth noting that he never actually comes in contact with the magma. Even still, surviving the convection would be impressive, so I'd say in that he has the resistance in that regard to a Varia Suit (though convection is always a screwy topic in games, so it could go either way.)

 

[ChikoLad]

All right, I read your arguments for Rosalina, but none were convincing. I would have replied, but Smash World Forums acted up on me again, so I don't feel like typing all that all over again. Moving along . . .

There's not much convincing to be done, since I'm just stating the facts from the games, which are commonly accepted by the fandom. And not even all of them at that.

Feel free to provide the interview of this.

http://www.tssznews.com/2013/11/12/...writer-pontac-knows-nothing-of-sonic-history/

Yeah, I am doubting those because for Shadow, it's what, Air Speed Dash? Taking that literally would mean Shadow is traveling at whatever speed air travels, which varies.

The Light Speed Dash is always called the Light Speed Dash, or at least "Light Dash". Shadow is granted the move in SA2 by equipment called "Air Shoes" while Sonic gets the "Light Shoes", but the name of the move itself is the same.

Both Sonic and Shadow can do it naturally in Sonic Heroes. Shadow can also do it naturally in his titular game. And since then, Sonic doing it naturally or needing an upgrade to do it has changed regularly, but it's just obvious gameplay-story segregation at that point. Especially since, for example, Sonic Unleashed had an Xbox 360/PS3 version, and then a separate Wii/PS2 version. The storyline is identical in both versions of the game, but for some reason, Sonic needs to gain some abilities over the course of the game in the Xbox 360/PS3 version, including the Light Speed Dash. However, in the Wii/PS2 version, he has all of his moves from the beginning, including the Light Speed Dash.

The Light Speed Dash is not the only evidence of Sonic's ability to run past the speed of light, there are many instances that evidence it. For example, he outruns a black hole for a roughly 30 seconds during an in-game sequence at the very end of Sonic Colours. He did get caught by it, but the key thing here is that it's an in-game sequence, and Sonic Colours is FAR from the fastest Sonic has been able to move in-game, let alone in cutscenes. Also, in CGI cutscene beforehand, he casually stands there as the black hole is only a few metres away from him and sarcastically comments that "this might not end well", and darts way ahead of it the moment after.

Saying Super Sonic is literally invincible and cannot be damaged is a no-limits fallacy.

...No. Super Sonic is literally invincible. This is a form that is in nearly every main Sonic game ever. Sonic does not take damage in his Super form. He can be knocked around and disoriented, but his body will be unharmed. Also, when he comes back out of his Super form, he is always in peak physical condition, regardless of what condition he was in beforehand.

Considering how the Super form tremendously enhances his natural abilities among other things, this phenomenon is likely the enhancement of Sonic's natural ability to quickly heal his wounds. It's an often overlooked detail, but in Sonic Battle, one of the game's mechanics is that the characters can heal themselves. However, the game goes a step further than that, giving each character an individual explanation for how they do it, and in Sonic's case, he "heals damage with supersonic speed" (the animation for it implies it involves him vibrating his quills to do it). For other examples, Tails uses a healing device, Knuckles uses "earth elementals", Shadow's healing ability is powered by Chaos Control, or for the most bizarre one, Amy Rose heals simply by "thinking about Sonic".

Also, healing in Sonic Battle also fills up a second gauge, called the "Ichikoro" gauge. When full, this gauge makes the characters next attack a one-hit KO. "Ichikoro" in English means "to beat hands down". So Sonic also has the natural ability to empower his attacks to a fatal level as he heals himself.

And Sonic Battle is unquestionably canon since it ties together a multitude of games in the series, both ones that exist before and after it. And Sonic's healing ability can be seen in any game where he gets beat up like crazy (such as the cutscene from Sonic and the Black Knight that I posted earlier), and seems all better moments later.

As for this Earth's core in his normal form, do you have a link? I can't just accept what you say without any evidence.

Lava Reef Zone from Sonic 3 & Knuckles is literally an entire level set inside the planet.

Alternatively, the entire finale of Sonic Unleashed takes place inside the Earth's core.

Also Sonic jumped into a volcano in Sonic '06 and screamed excitedly, as if having fun, as he did so.

 

[Crystanium]

You're right about Super's limited invincibility tho, but it appears as if he has gotten (obviously) stronger as he grows older. Ex. In Sonic 3, he could be knocked out of super form by being slammed hard enough into a platform. In '06, everything the final boss does hurts you, but it was a god controlling time and required 3 super beings to even incapacitate it. Same with the Sonic Unleashed one. In Rush, the final (robot) boss could harm him with missiles (this has never happened before or after with missiles, so god knows what they were made of), tearing a rift in space, or by slamming him between two hands. Also there's the intro cutscene to Unleashed where Eggman electrocutes the chaos emeralds out of him. In short, it appears as if he's given significantly increased resistance, but strong enough attacks will harm or revert him.

With regard to the Earth's core, that was from Unleased (tho admittedly it looks more like the mantle). I can't find a clear picture of it, but it is worth noting that he never actually comes in contact with the magma. Even still, surviving the convection would be impressive, so I'd say in that he has the resistance in that regard to a Varia Suit (though convection is always a screwy topic in games, so it could go either way.)

Well, it could just depend on what form of damage he's receiving. Force from blunt objects could be the same as force from sharp objects, but because the blunt object has a wider surface area, the pressure won't be as significant, for example. Same with heat damage. One could be harmed by heat while being durable to force.

Video games tend to ignore convection, just like how a lot of platformer games ignore damage from great falls.

Both Sonic and Shadow can do it naturally in Sonic Heroes. Shadow can also do it naturally in his titular game. And since then, Sonic doing it naturally or needing an upgrade to do it has changed regularly, but it's just obvious gameplay-story segregation at that point. Especially since, for example, Sonic Unleashed had an Xbox 360/PS3 version, and then a separate Wii/PS2 version. The storyline is identical in both versions of the game, but for some reason, Sonic needs to gain some abilities over the course of the game in the Xbox 360/PS3 version, including the Light Speed Dash. However, in the Wii/PS2 version, he has all of his moves from the beginning, including the Light Speed Dash.

If the 360/PS3 games are the same as the Wii/PS2 versions, but introduced at a later date, chances are, the 360/PS3 are the current kinds and what the developers retconned, which means Sonic would need to acquire these Light Speed Boots.

The Light Speed Dash is not the only evidence of Sonic's ability to run past the speed of light, there are many instances that evidence it. For example, he outruns a black hole for a roughly 30 seconds during an in-game sequence at the very end of Sonic Colours.

The problem with that is black holes don't behave in fiction the way they do in reality. This was addressed in previous posts in this thread.

He did get caught by it, but the key thing here is that it's an in-game sequence, and Sonic Colours is FAR from the fastest Sonic has been able to move in-game, let alone in cutscenes. Also, in CGI cutscene beforehand, he casually stands there as the black hole is only a few metres away from him and sarcastically comments that "this might not end well", and darts way ahead of it the moment after.

Yeah, that's definitely not how a black hole works, especially since being a few meters away would mean Sonic was in the event horizon and would require to travel faster than light, which he's never demonstrated. Furthermore, even with the Light Speed Boots, if we said that allowed Sonic to run 299,792,458 m/s, that would be too slow to escape a black hole.

...No. Super Sonic is literally invincible.

That's a no-limits fallacy. Repeating this assertion won't make it truer than before.

This is a form that is in nearly every main Sonic game ever. Sonic does not take damage in his Super form. He can be knocked around and disoriented, but his body will be unharmed. Also, when he comes back out of his Super form, he is always in peak physical condition, regardless of what condition he was in beforehand.

The problem is, Sonic never demonstrated surviving temperatures exceeding the core of the Sun in that form, so the burden of proof is on you.

Considering how the Super form tremendously enhances his natural abilities among other things, this phenomenon is likely the enhancement of Sonic's natural ability to quickly heal his wounds. It's an often overlooked detail, but in Sonic Battle, one of the game's mechanics is that the characters can heal themselves. However, the game goes a step further than that, giving each character an individual explanation for how they do it, and in Sonic's case, he "heals damage with supersonic speed" (the animation for it implies it involves him vibrating his quills to do it). For other examples, Tails uses a healing device, Knuckles uses "earth elementals", Shadow's healing ability is powered by Chaos Control, or for the most bizarre one, Amy Rose heals simply by "thinking about Sonic".

In spite of it being a game mechanic, the way Sonic would heal reminds me of how the Flash can heal, simply because the atoms in his body are probably forming blood platelets and all that jazz. I made a thread at FactPileTopia about game mechanics and how we should extract/draw out the canon from it while discarding the mechanic itself. But, even if Sonic's super form allows this, how would this be fast enough to prevent him from dying?

Not even Wolverine's accelerated regeneration (which is one of the best forms of regeneration in fiction allow with the Hulk's and Cell's) can survive that. The only reason why Wolverine would even regenerate from that is because of his adamantium skeleton.

Also, healing in Sonic Battle also fills up a second gauge, called the "Ichikoro" gauge. When full, this gauge makes the characters next attack a one-hit KO. "Ichikoro" in English means "to beat hands down". So Sonic also has the natural ability to empower his attacks to a fatal level as he heals himself.

Interestingly, Samus can do this. Kind of. Using Crystal Flash, she drops a power bomb and then uses that energy and the missiles/super missiles to restore all of her energy tanks. But, restoring health can also be perceived as vigor, just how it is for Link when he sits, rests, eats, or drinks. So, Sonic could just feel rejuvenated with this new energy when he transforms. Keep in mind what I'm saying here is not to contradict what you're saying, but to expand on what you presented here.

Lava Reef Zone from Sonic 3 & Knuckles is literally an entire level set inside the planet.

Alternatively, the entire finale of Sonic Unleashed takes place inside the Earth's core.

Also Sonic jumped into a volcano in Sonic '06 and screamed excitedly, as if having fun, as he did so.

While that's interesting, even accepting these won't help Sonic. Keep in mind that cores of planets are only on a level of temperature with the surface of the Sun. Impressive, but yeah.

 

[kataridragon]

My two cents on super sonic:

Nothing is faster than the speed of light therefore super sonic can't escape a black hole by speeding away. That's easy and to the point. (See chaos control below)

Super sonic can withstand extreme heat. Friction from air itself would disintegrate him if he wasn't resistant to a degree. Can you imagine 100 lb objects traveling at the speed of light through air? Even normal sonic goes through earths atmosphere outside of a space ship.

Supersonic doesn't take physical damage at all but is stunned by strong impacts... Like rockets or whole battleships. However sonic himself never takes damage either he only loses rings until he has no more.

Chaos control allows at least teleportation, time stop, and energy blasts. With that he can probably teleport out if a black hole or a sun.

I hope this clears the air in here for a few pages. My points are sound and valid with easy to understand proofs.

 

[IvanQuote]

...No. Super Sonic is literally invincible. This is a form that is in nearly every main Sonic game ever. Sonic does not take damage in his Super form. He can be knocked around and disoriented, but his body will be unharmed. Also, when he comes back out of his Super form, he is always in peak physical condition, regardless of what condition he was in beforehand.

Considering how the Super form tremendously enhances his natural abilities among other things, this phenomenon is likely the enhancement of Sonic's natural ability to quickly heal his wounds. It's an often overlooked details, but in Sonic Battle, one of the game's mechanics is that the characters can heal themselves. However, the game goes a step further than that, giving each character an individual explanation for how they do it, and in Sonic's case, he "heals damage with supersonic speed" (the animation for it implies it involves him vibrating his quills to do it). For other examples, Tails uses a healing device, Knuckles uses "earth elementals", Shadow's healing ability is powered by Chaos Control, or for the most bizarre one, Amy Rose heals simply by "thinking about Sonic".

Also, healing in Sonic Battle also fills up a second gauge, called the "Ichikoro" gauge. When full, this gauge makes the characters next attack a one-hit KO. "Ichikoro" in English means "to beat hands down". So Sonic also has the natural ability to empower his attacks to a fatal level as he heals himself.

And Sonic Battle is unquestionably canon since it ties together a multitude of games in the series, both ones that exist before and after it. And Sonic's healing ability can be seen in any game where he gets beat up like crazy (such as the cutscene from Sonic and the Black Knight that I posted earlier), and seems all better moments later.

True, Sonic can heal. The only problem is that is that his heal is the 2nd/3rd worst in the next to Shadow and Vanilla Emerl (maybe Rouge?), in both Ichikoro and health. Assuming his attacker won't give him a break, this will not help him much, as Sonic presumably has to focus solely on healing and cannot move when doing so.

As for oft overlooked stuff, there's the final battle sequence of that game. He has 30 seconds to beat the final boss (10 ko's) to stop a doomsday cannon, but there is no time limit to the battle (thank goodness.) I haven't looked up any speed run of the game, but I highly doubt the battle can be completed in that timespan.

Since this is a story element, that means the gameplay is slower than what actually happened. We can gather one thing from this:

Sonic gauges his power based on the direness of the situation at hand (assuming this example is the very extent of his power). Furthermore, since he isn't shown using this most anywhere else, it can be assumed that he loves toying with his opponents and limiting himself accordingly. This just about certain that Sonic is cocky and hasty as demonstrated in both older and newer Sonic games, and due to Lost World, it is shown that this could be exploited against Sonic.

The problem with that is black holes don't behave in fiction the way they do in reality. This was addressed in previous posts in this thread.

Yeah, that's definitely not how a black hole works, especially since being a few meters away would mean Sonic was in the event horizon and would require to travel faster than light, which he's never demonstrated. Furthermore, even with the Light Speed Boots, if we said that allowed Sonic to run 299,792,458 m/s, that would be too slow to escape a black hole.


The problem is, Sonic never demonstrated surviving temperatures exceeding the core of the Sun in that form, so the burden of proof is on you.

While that's interesting, even accepting these won't help Sonic. Keep in mind that cores of planets are only on a level of temperature with the surface of the Sun. Impressive, but yeah.

That "black hole" is probably just something that looks like one and isn't actually having all the properties, so that probably explains why Sonic was also able to temporarily outrun it.

Also, while this this is 2 Super Sonics, they actually do ram through a sun like fire ball (whether it's the same temp is debatable, but it's just floating around in a limbo time rift for most of the fight, so a sun may have been sucked in there at one point.).

Also in Rush Adventure, the final boss gets a scepter that allows it to control "The Power of the Stars" which is apparently some power that allows the existence of parallel universes. Oddly enough, nothing he does can hurt you (you fight in the mantle of the planet no less), and the power certainly is not exaggerated (Eggman becomes hysterical when his partner tries to do kamikaze with the power, assumed to blow up the planet had it not been interrupted), so this either means that Super Sonic is the strongest thing ever (doubtful) or Eggman wasn't using the full power/wasn't using it correctly (probable). In either case, it just begs the question of what those missiles in Rush were made of to hurt Super Sonic.

 

[liets]

I'm not trying to disrupt any discussions here, but which characters haven't had any substantial rating done to them yet?

Villager and Pac-Man seem right on the mark for that.

I did something concerning Villager's strength a while back; I'll get back to you on that

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

Okay, I don't know anything about Shulk, but can someone explain to me as to why he's considered top tier? I'm quite curious over this character I know nothing about.

 

[Brickbuild101]

Uh, I suggest Miis get removed from Tier X. :T

 

[ChikoLad]

Okay, I don't know anything about Shulk, but can someone explain to me as to why he's considered top tier? I'm quite curious over this character I know nothing about.

I haven't actually played Xenoblade Chronicles, but (end game spoilers ahead):

Spoiler

The gist is that the Monado has three forms. The first allows him to dispatch mechanical creatures. The second allows him to take on all kinds of organic lifeforms, and is also the one he uses in Smash.

The third form, however, grants him all kinds of abilities, on par with gods. In the end, he defeats a demi god and being dissatisfied with the concept of Gods ruling all life, Shulk rebirths the universe, removing gods in the process. Including himself.

Basically he ended up doing exactly what Rosalina did at the end of Galaxy. Except he chose to get rid of himself too.

 

[Brickbuild101]

I haven't actually played Xenoblade Chronicles, but (end game spoilers ahead):

Spoiler

The gist is that the Monado has three forms. The first allows him to dispatch mechanical creatures. The second allows him to take on all kinds of organic lifeforms, and is also the one he uses in Smash.

The third form, however, grants him all kinds of abilities, on par with gods. In the end, he defeats a demi god and being dissatisfied with the concept of Gods ruling all life, Shulk rebirths the universe, removing gods in the process. Including himself.

Basically he ended up doing exactly what Rosalina did at the end of Galaxy. Except he chose to get rid of himself too.

Spoiler

Then how would he be in Smash? *ignores that smash isn't canon*

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I did something concerning Villager's strength a while back; I'll get back to you on that

Oh, I might remember. It was something about how he can chop a fully matured tree in 3 axe swings. Seems like physics exaggeration, but if we take it for what it is, he might be able to stand against at least Little Mac.

Knowing Animal Crossing, Villager isn't a very featful character. Also, someone should really vouch for Pac-Man.

 

[Crystanium]

Also, while this this is 2 Super Sonics, they actually do ram through a sun like fire ball (whether it's the same temp is debatable, but it's just floating around in a limbo time rift for most of the fight, so a sun may have been sucked in there at one point.).

Using color temperature, I'd say about 800 K (526.85°C; 980.33°F) for the temperature with respect to the red portion. Assuming underneath is yellow, since that's what the other color is, I'd say 2,000 K (1,726.85°C; 3,140.33°F).

 

[Putuk]

I don't know how strong the Psychic boys are (Ness and Lucas), but Mewtwo is able to destroy whole buildings with just a mere thought, he is also able to teleport a whole mountain to another location so...

PK Flash can one-shot the Porky statue in both MOTHER 3 and Brawl, so I'd figure they'd be a force to reckon. Mewtwo's psychic abilities are probably more potent though.
Not to mention Mewtwo AND the PSI kids can also use their powers to restore, as opposed to destroy (Recover for Mewtwo and PSI Lifeup/Healing for Ness/Lucas). Power shouldn't just be measured in how much you can break, but also in how it can be used constructively, so that should be taken into account.

EDIT: I realized that I quoted a post from Page 1, while not realizing there were a good 50 pages to this thread. That's a little embarrassing.

 

[liets]

Oh, I might remember. It was something about how he can chop a fully matured tree in 3 axe swings. Seems like physics exaggeration, but if we take it for what it is, he might be able to stand against at least Little Mac.

Knowing Animal Crossing, Villager isn't a very featful character. Also, someone should really vouch for Pac-Man.

Actually, it was concerning his ability to effortlessly carry around with him 26 couches made of solid gold. That ways incredibly many tons and proves extreme muscular strength.

 

[josh bones]

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[IvanQuote]

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I'm assuming the reason Game&Watch is at the top is due to his flatness and the ability to produce Shadow Bugs, yea? I agree with it mostly, except Pika should be lower and the other Pokémon bumped up a tiny bit (1-2 spaces?) Also, Captain Falcon is listed twice?

 

[egaddmario]

Wouldn't ROB be the strongest Smash character because he actually exists outside the game?

Jokes aside, Shulk is god-tier.....

Spoiler

literally.

 

[GunGunW]

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I really wouldn't put Luigi above Mario... especially not to that degree.

 

[Pega-pony Princess]

Wouldn't ROB be the strongest Smash character because he actually exists outside the game?

Jokes aside, Shulk is god-tier.....literally.

Spoilers.

 

[egaddmario]

Spoilers.

I was debating putting it in a spoiler tag, but figured people were already talking about it. I edited it and threw it back in one.

 

[Crystanium]

I don't see the purpose of putting things for Shulk in spoilers. No one does that for any other character and the game has been out for a few years.

Anyway, I haven't seen any reason as to why Shulk is above everyone else.

 

[yurikos]

I don't see the purpose of putting things for Shulk in spoilers. No one does that for any other character and the game has been out for a few years.

Anyway, I haven't seen any reason as to why Shulk is above everyone else.

Spoiler: for all of xenoblade

Shulk is the vessel of the god who created and destroyed his universe countless times. He possesses the Monado, a sword that is said in-game to be capable of warping the fabric of reality. The previously mentioned god Zanza created said sword, and takes another one from another god Meyneth after killing her, which allows him to control the passage of fate. After Shulk was backstabbed to near death Zanza split from him and started an apocalypse to rain death down on all life. At the end of the game an ordinary Shulk defeats Zanza with his own power and his very own ability to influence the future - gaining not Zanza's, not Meyneth's, but his own Monado. With that, the entity of the Monado recognizes him as the new god of the universe. He takes that power and wishes for a world where there are no gods, so that everyone can live their lives without a higher being deciding their fates for them. Shulk births a new future in which you can visually see the universe which had gotten stagnant under Zanza's rule collapsing on itself and a Big Bang reforming the entire cosmos.

That is why a lot of people consider Shulk to be near the top in terms of canonical power.

I still put that in spoiler tags because even though the game has been out for years, the screwed over distribution in the US means not a lot of people have actually played Xenoblade.

 

[RoflMaster]

Sonic, he's fast enough to literally run around the competition and his smash attacks are still good enough to get by.

 

[liets]

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I think Villager should be considerably higher considering he can push upwards of 50,000 pounds (gold sofa) effortlessly while weighted down by over 1.3 million pounds (inventory full of gold sofas) and while wearing heavy armor, again all effortlessly

 

[warionumbah2]

Shulk was a vessel for God and overthrown his creator with his own power, Rosalina, Palutina can all stand in the corner they can't beat Shulk who slayed a God who wields another Gods power ontop of his own.

Sonic in base can break the sound barrier he's never surpassed or reached the speed of light, i need evidence if he has done so. We don't know how fast Super Sonic can go but its obvious Sonic can't handle such speed as he never breaks the sound barrier in any game other than Sonic CD.

Super Sonic is invincible...but at the end of the final boss in unleashed he failed to slay Dark gia on his own and passed out after using his power.

As of now Shulk is the top of the food chain.

SSS:

Stopped reading at this point, they shouldn't be on the same tier Shulk literally slayed a God who was using another Gods power ontop of his own power. Shulk ended up bringing out a new Monado which isn't the 2 Gods it was his, which confirms that he's a God just because characters are labelled as Gods doesn't mean they're on the same wavelength as Shulk demonstrated as he beat 2 Gods using his own power.

Actually, that's not the case. At all. None of what she does in other games relies on or incorporates Lumas beyond aesthetics.

However, even in Smash, this isn't even the case. Rosalina's pretty solid even without Lumas. And she utterly disrespects Master Core:

She be cherry picking those projectiles like it's nothing.

-------------

This might be relevant to Link fans (not a big fan of Game Theory anymore but this one doesn't seem too bad). It's literally this thread, applied to the various Links:

anyone can beat master core....

 

[Crystanium]

Spoiler: for all of xenoblade

Shulk is the vessel of the god who created and destroyed his universe countless times. He possesses the Monado, a sword that is said in-game to be capable of warping the fabric of reality. The previously mentioned god Zanza created said sword, and takes another one from another god Meyneth after killing her, which allows him to control the passage of fate. After Shulk was backstabbed to near death Zanza split from him and started an apocalypse to rain death down on all life. At the end of the game an ordinary Shulk defeats Zanza with his own power and his very own ability to influence the future - gaining not Zanza's, not Meyneth's, but his own Monado. With that, the entity of the Monado recognizes him as the new god of the universe. He takes that power and wishes for a world where there are no gods, so that everyone can live their lives without a higher being deciding their fates for them. Shulk births a new future in which you can visually see the universe which had gotten stagnant under Zanza's rule collapsing on itself and a Big Bang reforming the entire cosmos.

That is why a lot of people consider Shulk to be near the top in terms of canonical power.

I still put that in spoiler tags because even though the game has been out for years, the screwed over distribution in the US means not a lot of people have actually played Xenoblade.

I suppose I'll reply with a spoilers tag. I personally don't mind reading what happens, though because I won't be playing the game. I'm not huge on JRPGs.

Spoiler

While Shulk created and destroyed his universe countless times, this is only his universe, not anyone else's. Perhaps because this takes place in a neutral field, this power can be applied. If so, then yes, I can see Shulk being at the top.

Concerning Monado, it should be more than to be said to be capable of warping the fabric of reality. Again, this is applicable to his universe, but this being a neutral field, that rule may very well change. My only problem with this is that in a universe with two, omnipotent beings, this won't get us anywhere, so perhaps it shouldn't be applicable, even if there is only one person who is omnipotent, or at least has a high level of reality warping.

Going back to the idea of the Monado being said to be capable of warping reality is pretty much the way the Pokedex entries use "it is said", suggesting that this isn't known for certain. (A lot of people dismiss the Pokedex because a lot of it is ridiculous and contradicts the very games.) So we'll need to observe the feat, not take someone's word for it.

It's interesting how Shulk wishes for a world without gods. I know people might say Shulk can wish things to occur this way or that, but that's like saying Ganondorf can wish for things to work this way or that. This is why I said before that a character's personality is also important. To use Ganondorf again, he doesn't go around, wishing one thing after another. Perhaps this wasn't something you were going to use as an argument, but I wanted to address it anyway.

Anyway, I think this really falls back to whether or not Shulk's ability to destroy and create universes on this neutral field is applicable. If not, then that brings Shulk down, but I doubt by a significant amount.

Sonic, he's fast enough to literally run around the competition and his smash attacks are still good enough to get by.

Sonic is pretty fast, even considered "the hypersonic hedgehog", meaning he can run at least Mach 5.

Previous posts were addressing Sonic's speed to travel at light, which if he can, fine. It just looks like he can only do that in short bursts, however. Sure, that won't make him any lower on the tier list. After all, he could just run Mach 5 and then use his light speed when he's close enough. So yeah, Sonic is up there, but I doubt in his super form, he can withstand temperatures exceeding the core of the Sun.

I say this because Samus' power bombs are nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons typically have temperatures exceeding the core of the Sun, at least the fireball. And I assume TNT as the explosive for Samus' power bombs because TNT is a common explosive in the military. (So is C4, but I don't think that's what Samus is using.) The explosive velocity for TNT is 6,900 m/s, or 20 times the speed of sound.

 

[yurikos]

I suppose I'll reply with a spoilers tag. I personally don't mind reading what happens, though because I won't be playing the game. I'm not huge on JRPGs.

Spoiler

While Shulk created and destroyed his universe countless times, this is only his universe, not anyone else's. Perhaps because this takes place in a neutral field, this power can be applied. If so, then yes, I can see Shulk being at the top.

Concerning Monado, it should be more than to be said to be capable of warping the fabric of reality. Again, this is applicable to his universe, but this being a neutral field, that rule may very well change. My only problem with this is that in a universe with two, omnipotent beings, this won't get us anywhere, so perhaps it shouldn't be applicable, even if there is only one person who is omnipotent, or at least has a high level of reality warping.

Going back to the idea of the Monado being said to be capable of warping reality is pretty much the way the Pokedex entries use "it is said", suggesting that this isn't known for certain. (A lot of people dismiss the Pokedex because a lot of it is ridiculous and contradicts the very games.) So we'll need to observe the feat, not take someone's word for it.

It's interesting how Shulk wishes for a world without gods. I know people might say Shulk can wish things to occur this way or that, but that's like saying Ganondorf can wish for things to work this way or that. This is why I said before that a character's personality is also important. To use Ganondorf again, he doesn't go around, wishing one thing after another. Perhaps this wasn't something you were going to use as an argument, but I wanted to address it anyway.

Anyway, I think this really falls back to whether or not Shulk's ability to destroy and create universes on this neutral field is applicable. If not, then that brings Shulk down, but I doubt by a significant amount.

Spoiler: more endgame spoilers

Shulk's world is revealed at the end of the game to originally be the one we live in now (because we can see Earth in the background when it happens). Zanza, initially a scientist named Klaus, completed an experiment in space to wipe out the universe and recreate it so he could put himself in power as a god. Meyneth was another scientist who tried to stop him but ended up getting dragged in because she was in very close vicinity when he launched it. All humans except those two are gone and they become the Bionis and Mechonis respectively, two humongous titans established at the beginning of the game where the people they each created live on (you are actually standing on the Bionis' Leg in Gaur Plains and can see the Mechonis from there). It really depends on how you related you consider various worlds that appear in Smash, but it could be argued that Shulk's universe is the very distant future of everyone else, and that Zanza's advent included those in the wipeout as well when he reconstructed everything in Xenoblade.

About the Monado - it is seen manipulating reality in game by giving Shulk foresight. It manipulates ether, the building block of life in Zanza's universe. It calculates the ether in the past, present, and future and by changing the future Shulk does alter the reality of what should have happened. Perhaps it is applicable only in his home world but I wanted to mention it anyways, as his moveset still lets him use Vision in Smash outside of that stage.

I'm hesitant on calling Zanza and Meyneth truly omnipotent. At the end of the final fight, the Monado tells Zanza "This is the providence of the world. Even gods are merely being restricted to the limited power determined by providence. That power, although great, is not unlimited. I am Monado. I was here at the beginning, and I shall proclaim the end." So even though both are beings of unimaginable power, there is an eventual limit. It's a power much greater than gods such as Palutena and Viridi in Kid Icarus, because it's enough to reshape the universe an unimaginable amount of times, but it still runs out eventually.

Both Zanza and Meyneth are dead when Shulk takes over the position. When Shulk wishes for a world without gods at the end of the game, it is because the entity of the Monado (Alvis), the program that reformed the universe in the first pace, recognizes that he has the power to do so (calling him "Creator") and entrusts him with the fate of everything. The ending does confirm that Shulk's desire for a peaceful world is turned into reality.

I'm not trying to argue he's the strongest because it really is up for debate if he is. I simply wanted to give you facts about what happened in Xenoblade, so you can get a more accurate gauge of his character.

 

[GunGunW]

I'm gonna make a tier list based on characters I know only:

S:

How'd I do?

No, but seriously...
SS: (Miis repersent real people and R.O.B. actually exists in a sense)
S:
A: (@ liets makes a convincing argument for their case)
B:
C:

I don't know everyone else well enough.

 

[Digital Hazard]

SSS:
SS:
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

The characters in each row are in no particular order.

 

[Crystanium]

Spoiler: more endgame spoilers

Shulk's world is revealed at the end of the game to originally be the one we live in now (because we can see Earth in the background when it happens). Zanza, initially a scientist named Klaus, completed an experiment in space to wipe out the universe and recreate it so he could put himself in power as a god. Meyneth was another scientist who tried to stop him but ended up getting dragged in because she was in very close vicinity when he launched it. All humans except those two are gone and they become the Bionis and Mechonis respectively, two humongous titans established at the beginning of the game where the people they each created live on (you are actually standing on the Bionis' Leg in Gaur Plains and can see the Mechonis from there). It really depends on how you related you consider various worlds that appear in Smash, but it could be argued that Shulk's universe is the very distant future of everyone else, and that Zanza's advent included those in the wipeout as well when he reconstructed everything in Xenoblade.

About the Monado - it is seen manipulating reality in game by giving Shulk foresight. It manipulates ether, the building block of life in Zanza's universe. It calculates the ether in the past, present, and future and by changing the future Shulk does alter the reality of what should have happened. Perhaps it is applicable only in his home world but I wanted to mention it anyways, as his moveset still lets him use Vision in Smash outside of that stage.

I'm hesitant on calling Zanza and Meyneth truly omnipotent. At the end of the final fight, the Monado tells Zanza "This is the providence of the world. Even gods are merely being restricted to the limited power determined by providence. That power, although great, is not unlimited. I am Monado. I was here at the beginning, and I shall proclaim the end." So even though both are beings of unimaginable power, there is an eventual limit. It's a power much greater than gods such as Palutena and Viridi in Kid Icarus, because it's enough to reshape the universe an unimaginable amount of times, but it still runs out eventually.

Both Zanza and Meyneth are dead when Shulk takes over the position. When Shulk wishes for a world without gods at the end of the game, it is because the entity of the Monado (Alvis), the program that reformed the universe in the first pace, recognizes that he has the power to do so (calling him "Creator") and entrusts him with the fate of everything. The ending does confirm that Shulk's desire for a peaceful world is turned into reality.

I'm not trying to argue he's the strongest because it really is up for debate if he is. I simply wanted to give you facts about what happened in Xenoblade, so you can get a more accurate gauge of his character.

Spoiler

It seems a lot of fiction takes place in our universe, but I'd say it's more derivative if anything. The Metroidverse also has Earth and I believe originally, prior to the Metroid Prime trilogy, planet Zebes was in our solar system because in Super Metroid, the Ceres Station is surrounded by an asteroid belt, which I'd presume to be the same asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, where the dwarf planet Ceres is located.

Vision affects ether from what I've read and I did address this before by saying that it's the source of life. If we introduced characters where ki, or chakra, or midi-chlorians are the source of life, then we have a variety of life sources. We would say that ether affects Shulk, but not anyone else, unless they were the same. I'm referring to the law of identity. So they'd all agree on being the source of life, but anything else that makes them different would mean they're not the same.

I did say that ether would be permissible for Shulk, however, otherwise characters like Goku, or Naruto, or Darth Vader would be heavily crippled. The thing is, if Shulk can use it, so can anyone else, unless it's restricted to him at which point would only dwell in himself. But because this is a neutral battlefield, ether would affect everyone. It becomes a problem when there are two forces contradicting each other, if I am making any sense at all.

While Vision can calculate things and alter the outcome, it's not perfect. For example, let's say Shulk faces off against Samus and has a vision of her using a power bomb. How would Shulk avoid this? Monado Shield? If that's transluscent or transparent, then a wave beam would work through that. (I argue that most of Samus' weapons can travel at light speed, as if the wave beam fires beams of radio waves, and since radio waves travel at the speed of light, any character who tries to avoid it would need to predict that attack and avoid it or have nanosecond reaction time.)

So it would seem Shulk would have some forms of avoiding injury or death at his disposal. I'm just wondering how powerful the Monado Shield is and how fast Shulk can run.

We could avoid saying Monado grants omnipotence, but only in the sense of infinite power. You could use omnipotence as providence, as it appears to be the case. In other words, one would have sovereignty over the Universe. We can say the physical law is omnipotent because things obey it. Otherwise, we can say Zanza and Meyneth have vast power. Viridi is a force to be reckoned with, however. She has Reset Bombs that turn everything into a natural forest. It's not recreating the Universe, but it's still worth noting.

I don't mind if you're arguing for Shulk or not. He is pretty formidable from what I've read so far.

Anyway, I'd like to form a tier list of my own, but I don't know where to put characters. In terms of speed, Sonic wins against everyone, so he can very well be above the rest. I've noted at FactPileTopia that Samus' low-end speed should be Mach 2, since both the Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission says "supersonic speeds", rather than "speed". If it said "supersonic speed", we'd say Mach 1.2, since that's the low-end of supersonic speed, but to say "supersonic speeds" implies higher than Mach 1.2.

The Arwings can fly Mach 4.2, but this is in the atmosphere, which means at higher elevations, the speed of sound can be as fast as 660 mi/h. So 660 mi/h * 4.2 would be 2,772 mi/h. A lot of the other characters have an unknown speed, but haven't demonstrated supersonic speeds. All right, Captain Falcon can travel under the speed of sound, so perhaps subsonic until he starts using boost power. So, yeah. Speed really trumps a lot.

 

[josh bones]

I think Villager should be considerably higher considering he can push upwards of 50,000 pounds (gold sofa) effortlessly while weighted down by over 1.3 million pounds (inventory full of gold sofas) and while wearing heavy armor, again all effortlessly

He is outclasses by everyone in the tier above him, and I don't want to put him In his own tier.

 

[Nekoo]

Well, it could just depend on what form of damage he's receiving. Force from blunt objects could be the same as force from sharp objects, but because the blunt object has a wider surface area, the pressure won't be as significant, for example. Same with heat damage. One could be harmed by heat while being durable to force.

Video games tend to ignore convection, just like how a lot of platformer games ignore damage from great falls.



If the 360/PS3 games are the same as the Wii/PS2 versions, but introduced at a later date, chances are, the 360/PS3 are the current kinds and what the developers retconned, which means Sonic would need to acquire these Light Speed Boots.



The problem with that is black holes don't behave in fiction the way they do in reality. This was addressed in previous posts in this thread.



Yeah, that's definitely not how a black hole works, especially since being a few meters away would mean Sonic was in the event horizon and would require to travel faster than light, which he's never demonstrated. Furthermore, even with the Light Speed Boots, if we said that allowed Sonic to run 299,792,458 m/s, that would be too slow to escape a black hole.

Acording to the Sonic Wikia " It is unknown how much faster Sonic can run beyond Mach 1, though it is on various occasions assumed that he can. In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and when the Final Egg Blaster was about to fire, Sonic defeated Ultimate Emerl in less than 30 seconds. It is also believed that Sonic can move faster while in spinball form than running, possibly even reaching the speed of light as seen in Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes where he could utilize the Light Speed Attak and the Light Speed Dash to achieve light speed movements. Also, in Sonic Unleashed, the Chekpoint, which measure his speed (SPD) in-game, can clock Sonic going over 2,800 SPD; in comparison, the Light Speed Dash measures 396 SPD. This may suggest that Sonic can move at speeds far greater than the speed of light. "

So , Sonic even in his normal form can escape a black hole ?

 

[liets]

He is outclasses by everyone in the tier above him, and I don't want to put him In his own tier.

Well I mean I kinda doubt he is outclassed physically by Diddy Kong. Well maybe I'm a bit ignorant but it just seems that way

 

[josh bones]

Well I mean I kinda doubt he is outclassed physically by Diddy Kong. Well maybe I'm a bit ignorant but it just seems that way

diddy has a pistol that shoots peanuts at high speeds, his guitar that can destroy enemies in an area by playing it, can jump great hights using his tail alone. VIllager can lift stuff