Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ChikoLad]

You're going to have to post it again. I have no clue what page it was when you "proved" this.



I wrote this for a reason^



It's not my job to prove to you that she can't, it's your job to prove to me that she can. Show me an instance where she HAS created a blackhole & show me me an instance where she HAS recreated the universe by will. I already established and explained that she didn't create the one at the end of Mario Galaxy and she wasn't responsible for re-creating the universe. That was the lumas' doing.

If you're going to pit characters against each-other, you need to provide the feats as counter-argument. I admit I don't know everything about Rosalina, it's you that needs to correct me when I'm wrong.

Right now, Paluentena has the stronger feats.

Read back through the topic, I made a post detailing much of her powers, and explained how she is in fact the one who controlled the universe reboot (it's a plot hole if she isn't the one who did it).

 

[RGXZERO]

Read back through the topic, I made a post detailing much of her powers, and explained how she is in fact the one who controlled the universe reboot (it's a plot hole if she isn't the one who did it).

I'm not going to search through the entire topic, if you know where you posted it, you quote it.

As far as I'm aware, at the end of Galaxy we do not physically see Rosalina do anything except appear before Mario right before the universe resets on itself. However, we DO see the lumas controlling the blackhole and causing the universe reset by collapsing on itself. So it's not Rosalina's doing.

(if timestamp doesn't work go to 15:13)

To say...

"she is in fact the one who controlled the universe reboot"

...is merely speculation and should be considered "hyperbole." If by chance, she is responsible due to a plot-hole, it's never established nor stated, so you can't treat it as fact.

I stand by my statement,

To clear a misconception, "Rosalina cannot create blackholes or re-write reality by will":

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not going to search through the entire topic, if you know where you posted it, you quote it.

As far as I'm aware, at the end of Galaxy we do not physically see Rosalina do anything except appear before Mario right before the universe resets on itself. However we DO see the lumas controlling the blackhole and causing the universe reset. So it's not Rosalina's doing.

To say...

...is merely speculation and should be considered "hyperbole." If by chance, she is responsible due to a plot-hole, it's never established nor stated, so you can't treat it as fact.

I stand by my statement,

--------------------------

Now to provide images and what not of all of those abilities of Rosalina I pointed out before, where I can, and a more detailed explanation where I can get no image:

Platforming Prowess & Spin Attack

Protective Shield

She also does it in the Galaxy games when you attempt to jump, spin, or shoot Star Bits at her.

Teleportation

Also, see her roll animation in Smash.

Control over gravity
I don't know where I can find a video of an LPer doing it in Galaxy so I can't provide an image in this, but most people know how when you jump off the Observatory in Galaxy, Rosalina pulls you back to safety. Also, her control over gravity is implemented into her Smash moveset in a few different ways, such as her down special, "Gravitational Pull".

Self levitation and flight
We all know how she generally levitates for her "standing" animation in pretty much every game she's in. No need to explain that part.

For flight though:

Can create doppelgangers of herself (Cosmic Spirit)
I want to go into some detail on this point:

Spoiler

Some people like to claim that the "Cosmic Spirit" is not actually Rosalina, and instead is Rosalina's equivalent to "Cosmic Mario/Luigi". These guys are the result of Prankster Comets causing havok.

However, three key things disprove that theory, and prove it's actually Rosalina:

1) The Cosmic Spirit doesn't show up when Prankster Comets are present, it appears independently of them. It specifically shows up when Mario is struggling in his mission, and offers assistance. Cosmic Mario, on the other hand, only shows up when a Prankster Comet is present, and is mischievous and wants to get in Mario's way.

2) Compare the appearance of Cosmic Mario with the Cosmic Spirit:

Cosmic Mario is completely featureless, and it's even difficult to differentiate it's clothing.

The Cosmic Spirit is more clearly shaped like Rosalina. And notice how it has Rosalina's genuine crown, earrings, broach, and wand. Not only that, but it, again, only seeks to help Mario, like a friend.

3) Cosmic Mario speaks gibberish, and has an extremely high pitched, distorted voice. He sounds absolutely nothing like Mario. However, the Cosmic Spirit can speak proper English:

Not only that, but it's voice clips are identical to Rosalina's voice. Has the same echo Rosalina's voice has and all (something Cosmic Mario does not have).

--------------------

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that Cosmic Mario is an abomination - an unnatural, inaccurate clone of Mario. He has a completely off personality, voice, and rough appearance.
The Cosmic Spirit, on the other hand, is a deliberate clone, and even features Rosalina's genuine accessories. And since we know she possesses control over cosmic elements, it's not far fetched to believe it was her who made it. Who else would have made such an accurate clone, featuring her seemingly real accessories?

Mind control
Since we've already disclosed that the Cosmic Spirit is indeed a clone of Rosalina created by herself, that means the Cosmic Spirit's manner of helping Mario - taking control of his mind to help him where he fails - is an ability Rosalina has command over.

Can change size at will

Control over the universe's rebirth
The visual implications of Mario Galaxy's endings are pretty clear cut, so I'm not going to explain that.

Instead, I will make the assumption that Rosalina is not in control of the rebirth of the universe. Now, let's talk about the gaping plot holes that come from such a viewpoint:

-Rosalina herself states that whenever the universe is reborn, "the cycle repeats itself, but never in quite the same way.". If this is the case, why is it that Rosalina herself, and everything she cherishes, remains unchanged? Why does specifically everything related to her remain the same after the universe's rebirth (this includes Mario and his friends)? If you believe this is a completely natural, indiscriminate process that Rosalina has absolutely no control over, how do you explain Rosalina and her most dearest friends and locations remain completely unchanged?

-Rosalina's knowledge of this cycle in the first place proves that this isn't the first time she's been through it, and that she hasn't lost her memory from universe rebirth to rebirth.

-Whether you want to believe Rosalina is a goddess or not, she describes herself as "watcher and protector of the cosmos". That's a pretty important role. It seems a bit uncharacteristic for someone of such a position, to be left to the whim of a natural, indiscriminate process, therefore, potentially losing this role and having it passed on to someone less suitable (or nobody at all). Which could potentially leave the next incarnation of the universe in an unruly state.

-She willingly lets this process happen. As if she has confidence things will be fine in the next universe, that things won't be out of hand, and that she will still be there to watch over the cosmos. If she had no control over the process, she would not display such confidence, especially since Lumas are essentially dying as all of this is happening, and potentially Mario's friends too. We outright watch as everything turns to nothing, while a small, contained area with Rosalina and Mario exists, and later, Mario finds himself waking up from an unconscious state, along with everyone else - except Rosalina, who is conscious throughout this entire process. Another hint she drops is when she says, "Yes....all life carries the essence of stars...even all of you...". All life carries the essence of stars. Rosalina has control over cosmic elements and a whole lot more. Stars are a cosmic element. Anything that contains it's essence is something Rosalina can control the creation of.

As for "the Lumas did it", she never says this. She simply states that they are reborn in the new world.

The Lumas jumping into the black hole in the ending was them basically abandoning ship.

 

[RGXZERO]

--------------------------



As for "the Lumas did it", she never says this. She simply states that they are reborn in the new world.

The Lumas jumping into the black hole in the ending was them basically abandoning ship.

1. She doesn't have to say this, in fact no one has to say this, we actually SEE them purposely jumping into the blackhole to control it. The video/ the game itself I provided speaks for itself.
2. Purposelessly hurdling themselves into a blackhole is not the same as "jumping ship". If you're "jumping ship", you're avoiding a danger, not throwing yourself into it. What you said is absolutely incorrect.

Your theory on the cosmic spirits sounds good however it's never established in the games that it's indeed her. Which again, it's more hyperbole. You can't provide theories or speculations, we have to know damn well it's her controlling that Cosmic entity. In the end, we don't. All we can do is "speculate". If you can't prove it's her controlling the cosmic entiety, then your feats of "mind-control" & "creating doppelgangers" breaks completely apart.

I apologize on the fact that I forgot to mention her ability to control gravity to a degree, it completely left my mind but I didn't think her spin attack/ platforming abilities were all that necessary to mention.

 

[ChikoLad]

1. She doesn't have to say this, in fact no one has to say this, we actually SEE them purposely jumping into the blackhole to control it. The video/ the game itself I provided speaks for itself.
2. Purposelessly hurdling themselves into a blackhole is not the same as "jumping ship". If you're "jumping ship", you're avoiding a danger, not throwing yourself into it. What you said is absolutely incorrect.

Your theory on the cosmic spirits sounds good however it's never established in the games that it's indeed her. Which again, it's more hyperbole. You can't provide theories or speculations, we have to know damn well it's her controlling that Cosmic entity. In the end, we don't. All we can do is "speculate". If you can't prove it's her controlling the cosmic entiety, then your feats of "mind-control" & "creating doppelgangers" breaks completely apart.

I apologize on the fact that I forgot to mention her ability to control gravity to a degree, it completely left my mind but I didn't think her spin attack/ platforming abilities were all that necessary to mention.

They're "jumping ship" because they know their Mama is going to rescue them (as she does) and give them new life in the new world. Instead of prolonging the inevitable and trying to resist the black hole and stay in the old universe that is basically broken, they fling themselves into the black hole because they know their Mama.

If you don't believe that the Lumas are reborn and Rosalina is still the same, the Silver Luma that follows Mario in Galaxy 1 is the exact same one that follows him in Galaxy 2. However, in Galaxy 2, he cannot recall meeting Mario, and never regains recollection of Galaxy 1. Rosalina can, however. The Silver Luma, otherwise known as Young Master Luma, is the only one of it's kind, and is shown to have been separated from Rosalina in the 120 Star Ending of Galaxy 1. Leading into Galaxy 2.

What I'm presenting isn't some wacky Game Theory episode (funnily enough they just finished making a really silly theory about Rosalina). It's very simple stuff that the majority have accepted, even if they don't particularly like Rosalina.

 

[RGXZERO]

They're "jumping ship" because they know their Mama is going to rescue them (as she does) and give them new life in the new world. Instead of prolonging the inevitable and trying to resist the black hole and stay in the old universe that is basically broken, they fling themselves into the black hole because they know their Mama.

If you don't believe that the Lumas are reborn and Rosalina is still the same, the Silver Luma that follows Mario in Galaxy 1 is the exact same one that follows him in Galaxy 2. However, in Galaxy 2, he cannot recall meeting Mario, and never regains recollection of Galaxy 1. Rosalina can, however. The Silver Luma, otherwise known as Young Master Luma, is the only one of it's kind, and is shown to have been separated from Rosalina in the 120 Star Ending of Galaxy 1. Leading into Galaxy 2.

What I'm presenting isn't some wacky Game Theory episode (funnily enough they just finished making a really silly theory about Rosalina). It's very simple stuff that the majority have accepted, even if they don't particularly like Rosalina.

That still doesn't make sense. For argument's sake, let's say they did know Rosalina would protect them. Correct? They have nothing to worry about since their mother would protect them. (Also, technically, she didn't protect them because they still all died. Except for that one luma that got seperated.)

So the question I raise is,

if that's truly the case, why leave the ship at all? If Rosalina had the situation all under control then there was truly no reason to dive head-first into the blackhole in order to stop/control it.

Rosalina carrying knowledge of the previous reality doesn't prove she has full control over the universe. What if she's just immuned to memory wiping during a universe reset?

 

[Ravio_Yo]

I just want to point out that the Villager can chop through extremely thick trees with a few swings of an axe. That's definitely above normal human level.

 

[ChikoLad]

That still doesn't make sense. For argument's sake, let's say they did know Rosalina would protect them. Correct? They have nothing to worry about since their mother would protect them. (Also, technically, she didn't protect them because they still all died. Except for that one luma that got seperated.)

So the question I raise is,

if that's truly the case, why leave the ship at all? If Rosalina had the situation all under control then there was truly no reason to dive head-first into the blackhole in order to stop/control it.

Rosalina carrying knowledge of the previous reality doesn't prove she has full control over the universe. What if she's just immuned to memory wiping during a universe reset?

The protection comes in Rosalina being able to create a new world for people to thrive in. The Lumas trust that they will be fine in the new world and will one day be reunited with their mother.

This is not only the obvious, simple explanation for what is going on in Galaxy's ending, it's the very foundation of Rosalina's story in general, the key theme that's built up to in her storybook - an undying trust and love between Rosalina and the Lumas. The Lumas need Rosalina to tend to them, and the Lumas give Rosalina hope, joy, and a reason to live, despite the tragedies she has faced and the inherent loneliness she always feels.

And Rosalina remembering the previous universe is not the only proof I provided of her control over rebooting the universe.

 

[Shog]

Duck Hunt Dog gets only a broken leg if you shoot in its face. I say it is the strongest

 

[RGXZERO]

The protection comes in Rosalina being able to create a new world for people to thrive in. The Lumas trust that they will be fine in the new world and will one day be reunited with their mother.

This is not only the obvious, simple explanation for what is going on in Galaxy's ending, it's the very foundation of Rosalina's story in general, the key theme that's built up to in her storybook - an undying trust and love between Rosalina and the Lumas. The Lumas need Rosalina to tend to them, and the Lumas give Rosalina hope, joy, and a reason to live, despite the tragedies she has faced and the inherent loneliness she always feels.

And Rosalina remembering the previous universe is not the only proof I provided of her control over rebooting the universe.

I believe you're looking into it too deeply than what was actually portrayed in front of us. There's too much speculation and not enough hard facts/evidence.

We can go back and forth, back and forth on this but In the end, Rosalina didn't conjure up that black hole nor did we see her do anything to stop it. We clearly saw the lumas jumping into the blackhole in order to control/stop it on their own free will.

I'm tired, so I'm ending this debate right here still sticking with my original statement while adding some more new info to it.

Rosalina:

• Can not create black-holes nor re-write reality willingly.
• Can not control minds nor create cosmic doppelgangers.
• Immune to losing memory during reality reset.

Sorry, I like the character but she's not as powerful as you're making her out to be. She lacks the hard evidence in those feats.

 

[ChikoLad]

I believe you're looking into it too deeply than what was actually portrayed in front of us. There's too much speculation and not enough hard facts/evidence.

We can go back and forth, back and forth on this but In the end, Rosalina didn't conjure up that black hole nor did we see her do anything to stop it. We clearly saw the lumas jumping into the blackhole in order to control/stop it on their own free will.

I'm tired, so I'm ending this debate right here still sticking with my original statement while adding some more new info to it.



Sorry, I like the character but she's not as powerful as you're making her out to be. She lacks the hard evidence in those feats.

I didn't say she made the black hole. She hijacked it.

And I did provide hard evidence but you are glossing over it and not giving it the time of day.

 

[Greda]

I didn't say she made the black hole. She hijacked it.

And I did provide hard evidence but you are glossing over it and not giving it the time of day.

Also I would like to state out there that Rosalina cannot use all the abilities you tell us she can in Smash, as Palutena has most if not all of the abilities she grants Pit throughout his journey, excluding Power of Flight, because Pit still uses that in smash.

 

[kataridragon]

Duck hunt dog is best. He can't be killed by gunfire... Ever.

(Hijacks an already hijacked thread)

Edit: Duck Hunt Dog laughs at your feeble attempts to defeat him. This reminds me of like every villain in DBZ.

 

[ChikoLad]

Also I would like to state out there that Rosalina cannot use all the abilities you tell us she can in Smash, as Palutena has most if not all of the abilities she grants Pit throughout his journey, excluding Power of Flight, because Pit still uses that in smash.

She can use her Smash abilities because it doesn't contradict anything. Pit can't use the Power of Flight on his own in his own games so him using it in Smash doesn't mean anything for his canon strenght (and I could rationalise that Viridi is lending him a hand in most cases, or even Palutena herself when she's not present in a match).

 

[Crystanium]

Since I've noticed Shulk as a playable character when looking through the character forum for SSB4, I returned here. I've noticed that people are saying Shulk is a god. Let's remember that this doesn't mean anything and never should. Only feats matter. Kratos is a god. Fierce Deity is a god. These don't mean anything and for anyone who says, "Well, Shulk is different", you'll likely explain the differences with feats.

Another thing is about black holes. I personally don't care because in fiction, black holes do not behave how they should in reality. So the burden of proof is on anyone who thinks black holes behave like the kinds in reality and to demonstrate every little detail about said black holes. I treated this the same way with Sonic supposedly outrunning a black hole.

I'd also like to point out that being capable of creating universes is meaningless. A creator god can only create a new universe. It doesn't mean it can do anything else. A factory can mass produce cars, but that's all it's good for.

Next is the mention of Visions. From the Xenoblade Wiki, we are told,

"Using the Monado, Shulk is able to predict the future, a skill that is activated when a monster is going to use a battle art that will incapacitate or heavily injure the party member that currently holds the aggro of the monster."

I noticed that it was said in here that Visions can see the future and alter it. Well, to see what would happen in the future, the future must be linear, meaning Xenoblade is under hard determinism, the notion that everything in the future is already determined. Free will doesn't exist. To alter it means that this is a possible future, or it's simply contingent. Contingency means "a future event or circumstance that is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty".

This would mean that the Xenoblade universe probably works with hard libertarianism. So Visions can only predict what's going to happen. To predict something doesn't mean the outcome will occur. That involves whether or not there's a high or low probability for an event to occur. For example, I can judge based on the clouds outside that it will rain tomorrow. I'd say it's a low probability, however, considering there weren't many clouds. I could be wrong, though.

Next, what is mentioned is battle arts, which the Wiki defines as "attacks that do more damage that a regular attack." What is a regular attack? And not all attacks can be avoided, despite being predicted. Let's say Samus' power bomb is used. The explosive velocity would be 6,900 m/s, which is a little over 20 times the speed of sound. There is also an area of effect, meaning that whatever is caught in that explosion is vaporized.

There's also this thing about the Monado Shield being capable of withstanding a planet exploding. I'd like to see that. I'm sure there's a lot more to be said, but there are plenty of pages I'd need to go through and skimming just looked like it was a match between Shulk and Rosalina, which hey, I agree Rosalina isn't as powerful as many are making her out to be.

 

[GunGunW]

I love Captain Falcon, but outside Smash and the anime he's just a muscular non super powered dude. (and for the record: I like that better)

I just want to point that out because some think he's on a much higher tier than he actually would be...

 

[HipsandChips]

I say Wii Fit Trainer.
Yes Palutena and Rosalina are essentially goddesses, but they have some big weakness:
Emotion. Values. Friends.
Wii Fit Trainer has no morals, (besides a tight fitness regimen), and nothing to lose. and thus can not be emotionally swayed.

 

[Khao]

Guys guys.

Stop this.

Pit is the most powerful Nintendo character of all time.

It's totally canon:

 

[Xzsmmc]

I love Captain Falcon, but outside Smash and the anime he's just a muscular non super powered dude. (and for the record: I like that better)

I just want to point that out because some think he's on a much higher tier than he actually would be...

Captain Falcon smacktalked the creators of the universe, and found the notion of them beating him laughable. He then proceeded to defeat them.

 

[GunGunW]

Captain Falcon smacktalked the creators of the universe, and found the notion of them beating him laughable. He then proceeded to defeat them.

He beat them in a race, he didn't physically defeat them.

Although, I think that settles it: he's Batman.

 

[Xzsmmc]

He beat them in a race, he didn't physically destroy them.

Yeah, I know. Still a pretty impressive feat. Though it makes me wonder why they acted like were destroyed. Guess they're sore losers.

 

[Zink Imp]

Actually after playing Triple Deluxe, I might have to also vouch for Kirby.

 

[Crystanium]

Actually after playing Triple Deluxe, I might have to also vouch for Kirby.

Is it because of Hypernova? That should allow for Kirby to inhale taller opponents just by observing him inhaling a tree much larger than him. It took a while, but that's because it was rooted into the ground. I haven't played the game, but by searching for the Crash ability, I found Hypernova as well. So I wonder what else he's capable of doing. However, there are large, heavy blocks that cannot be inhaled, only drawn toward Kirby, so it might not work on everyone.

In previous pages, I mentioned that Kirby's Jet ability allows him to fly Mach 5. But without knowing his mass, I cannot find the amount of energy he'd produce. It also takes a short charge and doesn't last long. As for Crash, we went with 2.99 gigajoules of energy because that's the amount of energy necessary to vaporize humans. That's equal to 0.71 tons of TNT. Then he has Supernova, which is stronger. I suppose we could go with 1 ton of TNT.

 

[Super_Queijo]

Little Mac beat Mike freaking Tyson, there's no one better than him.

 

[Ravio_Yo]

Little Mac beat Mike freaking Tyson, there's no one better than him.

Can't even Falcon Punch, 0/10 Mike Tyson bottom tier.

 

[kataridragon]

Can't even Falcon Punch, 0/10 Mike Tyson bottom tier.

Captain falcon for punchout 2016!

 

[Link Sharingan]

Samus fully upgraded probably the most powerful.

wile not the most powerful Ganondorf can only be hurt by the Master Sword and can't die unless he lose the Triforce of Power.

 

[Muster]

Next is the mention of Visions. From the Xenoblade Wiki, we are told,

"Using the Monado, Shulk is able to predict the future, a skill that is activated when a monster is going to use a battle art that will incapacitate or heavily injure the party member that currently holds the aggro of the monster."

I noticed that it was said in here that Visions can see the future and alter it. Well, to see what would happen in the future, the future must be linear, meaning Xenoblade is under hard determinism, the notion that everything in the future is already determined. Free will doesn't exist. To alter it means that this is a possible future, or it's simply contingent. Contingency means "a future event or circumstance that is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty".

You don't seem to understand.
From the Monado page on the same wiki.
"The Monado grants its elected wielder the power of foresight. It is said that foresight is possible because all of the ether in the world is calculable in its changes. This allows the user to see where every ether particle is, was, and will be."
The Monado doesn't see the future, it calculates it. The only way the future changes from the way it is calculated is if the wielder of the Monado changes his actions. Unlike some kind of weather equipment or a person calling a coin toss, the Monado's calculations are 100% accurate. The future changes because these calculations are shown to the person wielding the Monado, and not because of an inaccuracy in the sword itself.

And for feats, well.
"He explains that Shulk is a god now because he has found his Monado, and that he can decide the fate of all the universe."
This isn't just creating the universe, deciding the fate of meaning that the universe is in his hands, he can create, destroy, and recreate as he pleases. As Zanza said, "The True Monado, instrument of destruction and rebirth"

Not trying to argue anything, just fixing some inaccuracy.

 

[Crystanium]

You don't seem to understand.
From the Monado page on the same wiki.
"The Monado grants its elected wielder the power of foresight. It is said that foresight is possible because all of the ether in the world is calculable in its changes. This allows the user to see where every ether particle is, was, and will be."
The Monado doesn't see the future, it calculates it. The only way the future changes from the way it is calculated is if the wielder of the Monado changes his actions. Unlike some kind of weather equipment or a person calling a coin toss, the Monado's calculations are 100% accurate. The future changes because these calculations are shown to the person wielding the Monado, and not because of an inaccuracy in the sword itself.

And for feats, well.
"He explains that Shulk is a god now because he has found his Monado, and that he can decide the fate of all the universe."
This isn't just creating the universe, deciding the fate of meaning that the universe is in his hands, he can create, destroy, and recreate as he pleases. As Zanza said, "The True Monado, instrument of destruction and rebirth"

Not trying to argue anything, just fixing some inaccuracy.

Well, how will that work if there isn't any ether to begin with? Ether is present in the Xenoblade universe, much like midi-chlorians are present in the Star Wars universe. Ether is probably permitted here, just because it would heavily restrict Shulk, just like lack of midi-chlorians would heavily restrict Darth Vader, or no ki would heavily restrict Goku. What a mess. So, if it's permitted, then everyone who faces these characters should be granted ether, or midi-chlorians, or ki.

Regardless, if Monado can alter events, then time isn't linear, and if it's not linear, then really, any action will change the course of history, making every action contingent. It's fine if Shulk is the only one who can alter it, but that still makes time branch off into different parts. Anyway, I was taking the information from the Visions article and it was mentioning limitations. If those aren't applicable, perhaps you can explain why. Otherwise, they should be addressed.

Concerning the universes, those are strictly in Xenoblade, so Shulk can have as much control of those in the same way the president of a car company has as much control over his company than he would over another car company. I don't contest that. Since these matches aren't taking place in any universe these characters are originally from, I can't see Shulk deciding the fate of the matches, unless it took place in one of the universes in Xenoblade.

If possible, textual evidence and visual evidence would be preferable. I'm not saying you're withholding information deliberately, but some people do that if it will favor their position. I will assume the principle of charity in your case, however.

 

[L9999]

Well, how will that work if there isn't any ether to begin with? Ether is present in the Xenoblade universe, much like midi-chlorians are present in the Star Wars universe.

You mentioned the forbidden words...

 

[MysticKnives]

Shulk, Palutena, Ness (end game), Ganondorf, Rosalina, Captain falcon (with smash bros hype - knocking people out of rosters lol), Samus in no order are the most powerful.

Though in a fight: I have my money on:
Shulk, Ness, Ganondorf, Palutena lasting, with Shulk most likely ending up winning.

 

[Muster]

Well, how will that work if there isn't any ether to begin with? Ether is present in the Xenoblade universe, much like midi-chlorians are present in the Star Wars universe. Ether is probably permitted here, just because it would heavily restrict Shulk, just like lack of midi-chlorians would heavily restrict Darth Vader, or no ki would heavily restrict Goku. What a mess. So, if it's permitted, then everyone who faces these characters should be granted ether, or midi-chlorians, or ki.

Regardless, if Monado can alter events, then time isn't linear, and if it's not linear, then really, any action will change the course of history, making every action contingent. It's fine if Shulk is the only one who can alter it, but that still makes time branch off into different parts. Anyway, I was taking the information from the Visions article and it was mentioning limitations. If those aren't applicable, perhaps you can explain why. Otherwise, they should be addressed.

Concerning the universes, those are strictly in Xenoblade, so Shulk can have as much control of those in the same way the president of a car company has as much control over his company than he would over another car company. I don't contest that. Since these matches aren't taking place in any universe these characters are originally from, I can't see Shulk deciding the fate of the matches, unless it took place in one of the universes in Xenoblade.

If possible, textual evidence and visual evidence would be preferable. I'm not saying you're withholding information deliberately, but some people do that if it will favor their position. I will assume the principle of charity in your case, however.

Ether is required for life.
"It is said many times that ether is the base unit of life and that without it, living beings die."
While i can't say for sure if other smashers would need ether, it seems to be present if Shulk's fighting in their universes is anything to draw on. A restriction of ether for Shulk would basically be like a restriction of Oxygen for pretty much every other fighter.

Like i said before, what the Monado is showing isn't the future. If the timeline is linear, then it takes into account all the times Shulk has a vision of what could happen and changes it, there's really little saying that what the Monado sees is truly the future, instead of just calculations.
The sole weakness of the vision that is seen in game with Telethia is mind reading, if one can gaze into Shulk's mind, then they can see the visions as well, as the Monado broadcasts the visions into his mind's eye. However, the same cutscene shows that the Monado has an art that stops this from happening as well.

And if you're going to ask why Alvis can use the Monado
[collapse=spoilers]
He is the spirit of the blade, Basically he is to the Monado what Fi is to the Master sword.
[/collapse]

However, concerning Universes, The Xenoblade Universe is only a real world universe that Zanza Destroyed and recreated with himself as god. So it's ambiguous as to what that universe was beforehand.

That's all i have to say, really. The rest is determined by perception and bias.

 

[marvel b]

not to ruffle up jammies, but ganondorf could be the most powerful. in ocarina of time,he was extremely close to breaking into the realm of sages, weakening his power before link gathered them together to seal him away.and in twilight princess, ganondorf didn't go full power on link,like he did to break the sage's bonds on him. most likely from defeating that giga-midna thing,having a sword being impaled into him, constant light arrows to the face, and using magic to separate link and zelda in the final fight. if he was at full power,he could most likely defeat palutena, shulk ,and mewtwo in a fight.

 

[Strofirko]

Mr game and watch,isnt that obvious,I mean,even with a goddess like palutena or a mutant like mewtwo he still can summon his race out of nowhere,he is an unique matter in the entire universe,he can transform into a giant octopus and other creatures,he could be only a joke character for the many,but compared to the others, he is more than that,and in the subspace emissary from brawl,that is very clear.
"But he is a joke character" you say.
Well,compared to the other joke characters he still very powerful.
:even being a psychopath who killed baloon fighter and stole his clothes,he only has access to normal world weapons,a fancy rocket gyroid and a limitless pocket,that isnt really too much compared to an entire matter.
.:Just a normal robot with some cool-fashioned laser,even he having an access to an entire army of his own species,it was easily wiped out in subspace emissary on brawl.
:She is a strong yoga trainer,but still has her flaws,she can spawn suns and an entire yoga poses out of her arms,but still fails to recover technichs,specially on deep breaths.
Lastly but not least :Even he having ties with serial killer ducks,wild west gangster,fourth wall hunters,still nothing compared to the arsenal of mr game and watch,that has the ability to throw burning food,spawn mega hammers and other weirdos.

Bend to your 2d god:

 

[Crystanium]

Ether is required for life.
"It is said many times that ether is the base unit of life and that without it, living beings die."
While i can't say for sure if other smashers would need ether, it seems to be present if Shulk's fighting in their universes is anything to draw on. A restriction of ether for Shulk would basically be like a restriction of Oxygen for pretty much every other fighter.

Like i said before, what the Monado is showing isn't the future. If the timeline is linear, then it takes into account all the times Shulk has a vision of what could happen and changes it, there's really little saying that what the Monado sees is truly the future, instead of just calculations.
The sole weakness of the vision that is seen in game with Telethia is mind reading, if one can gaze into Shulk's mind, then they can see the visions as well, as the Monado broadcasts the visions into his mind's eye. However, the same cutscene shows that the Monado has an art that stops this from happening as well.

And if you're going to ask why Alvis can use the Monado
[collapse=spoilers]
He is the spirit of the blade, Basically he is to the Monado what Fi is to the Master sword.
[/collapse]

However, concerning Universes, The Xenoblade Universe is only a real world universe that Zanza Destroyed and recreated with himself as god. So it's ambiguous as to what that universe was beforehand.

That's all i have to say, really. The rest is determined by perception and bias.

I won't mind if ether is required for life with respect to Shulk. The onus isn't on me to prove that any other Smash character lives by ether, since no other character in Smash is from the Xenoblade universe. I can see why people allow various things to exist in this neutral battlefield. Of course, in the DC/Marvel crossover, the Speed Force wasn't present, so the Flash didn't have his super speed from that source.

If things can be altered, then that would mean the timeline is non-linear. The thing I read about Vision is that it responds to battle arts. Battle arts "are attacks that do more damage that a regular attack". So what is a regular attack? Then there's are physical attacks, which are defined as "attacks that make contact with an enemy". Attacks typically make contact with enemies, so . . .

Monado Purge looks like it depends on specific things, such as a spike and aura activation ability. I don't know what a spike is but auras will depend on the definition, I suppose. Also, don't be afraid to put anything you tell me in spoiler tags. I've never played the Xenobladge series and since it's an RPG, chances are I won't play it.

 

[IvanQuote]

A quick question I'd like to run by people: would Duck Hunt Dog count as both the hunter and the dog, or just the dog? If the latter (what I'm currently going with), I'd say he's above Wii Fit Trainer and Villager, but below Little Mac and Ice Climbers. If the former should be counted, he may be a bit higher due to rifle support.

 

[Gameboi834]

Is it because of Hypernova? That should allow for Kirby to inhale taller opponents just by observing him inhaling a tree much larger than him. It took a while, but that's because it was rooted into the ground. I haven't played the game, but by searching for the Crash ability, I found Hypernova as well. So I wonder what else he's capable of doing. However, there are large, heavy blocks that cannot be inhaled, only drawn toward Kirby, so it might not work on everyone.

In previous pages, I mentioned that Kirby's Jet ability allows him to fly Mach 5. But without knowing his mass, I cannot find the amount of energy he'd produce. It also takes a short charge and doesn't last long. As for Crash, we went with 2.99 gigajoules of energy because that's the amount of energy necessary to vaporize humans. That's equal to 0.71 tons of TNT. Then he has Supernova, which is stronger. I suppose we could go with 1 ton of TNT.

I feel like you could use formulae for acceleration due to and for gravity and, using height/size ratios, find the mass of Popstar and Kirby.

 

[ChikoLad]

Re:

I know a lot of people point to F-Zero GX to say "he's actually not that strong", but the problem with that is that F-Zero GX was made by SEGA. If we aren't counting Hyrule Warriors for the Zelda characters (if we could, Zelda and Sheik would be much higher on my tier list), then we ain't counting GX either.

As far as I'm concerned, F-Zero Densetsu (the anime) and Smash are the only times Captain Falcon has ever had much characterisation from Nintendo themselves. Therefore, those are Nintendo's real idea of what the character is. F-Zero GX was not a fully accurate portrayal of the character compared to all other sources, so it's really negligible.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

Re:

I know a lot of people point to F-Zero GX to say "he's actually not that strong", but the problem with that is that F-Zero GX was made by SEGA. If we aren't counting Hyrule Warriors for the Zelda characters (if we could, Zelda and Sheik would be much higher on my tier list), then we ain't counting GX either.

As far as I'm concerned, F-Zero Densetsu (the anime) and Smash are the only times Captain Falcon has ever had much characterisation from Nintendo themselves. Therefore, those are Nintendo's real idea of what the character is. F-Zero GX was not a fully accurate portrayal of the character compared to all other sources, so it's really negligible.

As far as I know, Hyrule Warriors is basically like a crossover spinoff while GX is supposed to be an entry for the main series. While both are similar in that they are made by a different company, they are still different cases.

 

[ChikoLad]

As far as I know, Hyrule Warriors is basically like a crossover spinoff while GX is supposed to be an entry for the main series. While both are similar in that they are made by a different company, they are still different cases.

Actually, Hyrule Warriors fits into the Zelda canon just fine (saying this as someone who marathoned the game's story mode day one).

F-Zero GX is literally the only F-Zero game to have any care for story, outside of GP Legend. However, the former is made by a third party and doesn't connect to any other part of the F-Zero franchise in terms of story. Which is why I disregard it.