Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ChikoLad]

I can agree with you on Shulk, but not Rosalina. The only reason it appears she does not have any clear limitations is because she has never actually fought anything besides stepping on Goombas and being in Smash. Sure she has some passive abilities but she didn't defeat Bowser on her own either, and by Mario doing so besides her makes me want to place Mario one tier above Rosalina. Rosalina IMO should be C tier.

Sorry, but I've made my case for Rosalina enough to go and bring her below Shulk's tier, and already disclosed that her "needing Mario" was pure gameplay story segregation, no less than with Peach (plus, she never explicitly claimed she needed someone to help her, she just got Mario to do so! Day off, I suppose? :V).

 

[Greda]

Sorry, but I've made my case for Rosalina enough to go and bring her below Shulk's tier, and already disclosed that her "needing Mario" was pure gameplay story segregation, no less than with Peach (plus, she never explicitly claimed she needed someone to help her, she just got Mario to do so! Day off, I suppose? :V).

You've made your case quite well, but all I'm saying is that there really isn't enough evidence to place Rosalina by Palutena or Shulk.

She has good passive abilities, sure, but has she actually fought besides stepping on Goombas? No, I don't believe she has, and the possibility exists she cannot fight on that scale at all.

Until I see Rosalina actually fight her own "boss" in her own game, I'm going to disagree with you fully and place Rosalina as the weakest between Palutena and Shulk, Shulk being higher than Palutena.

And if you bring up Super Mario 3D World with fighting Bowser, all I can say is that Peach, Mario, Luigi, and Toad are also capable of that, which could also bump them up to the tier of Rosalina, and that contradicts your tier list.

EDIT: It also never stated Rosalina didn't need Mario's help, so that's another thing.

 

[nessokman]

Double post forget it

 

[nessokman]

Falcon was a tough choice, but I put him where he is for these reasons:

-The only F-Zero game to my knowledge that portrays Falcon as a character is GX, as well as GP Legend (the GBA game based on the anime). And while he admittedly isn't really worth talking about in GX, the game is made by SEGA, so I feel like it isn't Nintendo's portrayal of the character.

-We get Nintendo's portrayal of the character through Smash and F-Zero Densetsu/GP Legend. As a result, I consider them to be the closest to what we can call canon, and they basically formed the Captain Falcon everyone knows. Captain Falcon is really powerful in the anime, and survives all sorts of crazy stuff. And in the recent Lucina/Robin trailer, Captain Falcon blocks Lucina's sword like it's nothing. Apparently, that sword is some legendary sword meant to take down a city-sized dragon or something. And then Falcon would have wrecked Lucina in this trailer if not for Robin. Therefore, I think he stands among the likes of Pit. He was also very capable in the SSE cutscenes.

As for Ike, I admit he's sort of randomly placed since I don't know enough about him, though I knew he could be no lower than A tier.

I don't think Mario would be higher than Luigi though, for multiple reasons.



Despite being directly referred to as a goddess, Palutena has clear limits. Rosalina and Shulk don't.

And in Rosalina's case, there is a simple "rock, paper, scissors" logic here that puts her above Palutena here - Palutena controls light. One of the things Rosalina controls is space. Light needs space to function.

Also, Palutena is displayed as having control over a single planet, and nothing more, while Shulk and Rosalina display universal control.

Heck, if it weren't for the fact that she has control over Pit, I'd be placing Palutena in S Tier.

As for Zelda, she is somewhat randomly placed. However, I think Peach is more likely to move up than her. If I take Hyrule Warriors into consideration, Zelda would be A Tier, definitely. However, I'm not taking it into consideration due to my logic for Captain Falcon. Plus, I believe Hyrule Warriors is explicitly non-canon.

It's not as much of he only having control over one planet As much as her caring about the humans on earth. She watches over humanity and protects them.

And technically light doesn't need space to function.

IMO, palutena should be bumped up one, as well as pit. Pit has defeated many gods and demigods in his quest. Shulk only beat one god....

 

[TopSecretZone]

The person throwing the trophies around.

 

[ChikoLad]

You've made your case quite well, but all I'm saying is that there really isn't enough evidence to place Rosalina by Palutena or Shulk.

She has good passive abilities, sure, but has she actually fought besides stepping on Goombas? No, I don't believe she has, and the possibility exists she cannot fight on that scale at all.

Until I see Rosalina actually fight her own "boss" in her own game, I'm going to disagree with you fully and place Rosalina as the weakest between Palutena and Shulk, Shulk being higher than Palutena.

And if you bring up Super Mario 3D World with fighting Bowser, all I can say is that Peach, Mario, Luigi, and Toad are also capable of that, which could also bump them up to the tier of Rosalina, and that contradicts your tier list.

EDIT: It also never stated Rosalina didn't need Mario's help, so that's another thing.

Palutena hasn't had her own boss either. And the boss fight against her is the result of her letting herself become brainwashed, so it's actually a point against her competence (you can actually fail the fight by killing her - so there is potential for Pit to be capable of killing her).

A character doesn't need to explicitly engage in fisticuffs to display power or potential (again, using such logic would mean I'd be putting Palutena a lot lower, not just Rosalina, since Palutena's one instance of direct combat was not very spectacular). Everything they do should be accounted for, and the most consistent and true portrayals are what I go on. This is why Rosalina is so high. She controls the universe, and has displayed a wide variety of powers that are easily applicable to combat. She doesn't have to actually be seen using them in such a way. And her personality does not paint her as a pacifist in the the face of adversity either.

It's not as much of he only having control over one planet As much as her caring about the humans on earth. She watches over humanity and protects them.

And technically light doesn't need space to function.

IMO, palutena should be bumped up one, as well as pit. Pit has defeated many gods and demigods in his quest. Shulk only beat one god....

She doesn't have control over anything outside of the Earth. The Space Pirates took the Three Sacred Treasures from right under her nose in Chapter 8, and she actually struggled against the Aurum Invasion. She needed the help of other gods, and Pit.

Light doesn't need a medium to travel, but it can't do anything without one. Without space, it does nothing of note. It's basically non-functional.

Pit would be bumped up if not for the fact that some of his more grand powers come from the help of gods. He can't even fly without divine intervention. That puts him at a big disadvantage against god like beings.

Plus, the gods in KI:U were not the most powerful gods in gaming. Certainly not more so than Shulk and Rosalina.

 

[Greda]

Palutena hasn't had her own boss either. And the boss fight against her is the result of her letting herself become brainwashed, so it's actually a point against her competence (you can actually fail the fight by killing her - so there is potential for Pit to be capable of killing her).

Technically, at this point, Palutena was fighting her own boss which is Pit.

And, I still need to see Rosalina fight to know that she even is capable of fighting.

At least we know Palutena is.

 

[ChikoLad]

Technically, at this point, Palutena was fighting her own boss which is Pit.

And, I still need to see Rosalina fight to know that she even is capable of fighting.

At least we know Palutena is.

Smash Bros?

3D World?

But even without them - they don't need to be in a fight, it's about the power they possess. The whole point of thinking about who is stronger canonically is assuming they apply their skills in a fight anyway, so whether or not they have fought before is irrelevant. It just matters that they gave potential.

 

[nessokman]

She doesn't have control over anything outside of the Earth. The Space Pirates took the Three Sacred Treasures from right under her nose in Chapter 8, and she actually struggled against the Aurum Invasion. She needed the help of other gods, and Pit.

It's never been stated that she doesn't have power outside of earth, she focuses on the earth, she Is taking care of humans, she thought the treasures were safe, and focused on the people.

Pit was the one I really defeat the arum, (underworld army and fires if nature didn't help much) he also defeated the forces of nature and the underworld. He even took down palutena's centurion army.

Light doesn't need a medium to travel, but it can't do anything without one. Without space, it does nothing of note.

So contradictory it isn't funny, space is the absence of matter, just as darkness is the absence of light. With or without space or matter is irrelevant to how I works.

Pit would be bumped up if not for the fact that some of his more grand powers come from the help of gods. He can't even fly without divine intervention. That puts him at a big disadvantage against god like beings.

Plus, the gods in KI:U were not the most powerful gods in gaming. Certainly not more so than Shulk and Rosalina.

He literally took down 5 armies-
1.Underworld
2.forces of nature
3.palutena's army
4.arum
5.dyntos' clone forces

well as the gods-
-medusa
-hades
-palutena
-(clone palutena)
-Thanatos
-Pandora
-pyhhron

As well as demigods-
-phosphora

And beasts-
-twin bellows
-hewdraw
-Phoenix
-great reaper

I guarantee you he should be bumped up. The only time he used flight in a fight against a god was during the fight with medusa none of the other fights had help from goddesses. He can fight without their help.

 

[SmashShadow]

Tier SS:

Tier S:

Tier A:
/
Tier B:

Tier C:

Tier D:

Tier F

Not Sure Tier


May explain later.

 

[ChikoLad]

It's never been stated that she doesn't have power outside of earth, she focuses on the earth, she Is taking care of humans, she thought the treasures were safe, and focused on the people.

Pit was the one I really defeat the arum, (underworld army and fires if nature didn't help much) he also defeated the forces of nature and the underworld. He even took down palutena's centurion army.


So contradictory it isn't funny, space is the absence of matter, just as darkness is the absence of light. With or without space or matter is irrelevant to how I works.


He literally took down 5 armies-
1.Underworld
2.forces of nature
3.palutena's army
4.arum
5.dyntos' clone forces

well as the gods-
-medusa
-hades
-palutena
-(clone palutena)
-Thanatos
-Pandora
-pyhhron

As well as demigods-
-phosphora

And beasts-
-twin bellows
-hewdraw
-Phoenix
-great reaper

I guarantee you he should be bumped up. The only time he used flight in a fight against a god was during the fight with medusa none of the other fights had help from goddesses. He can fight without their help.

She didn't even have a clue what the Aurum were. I'm sure she would know if she had some bearing over what goes on in space. She's never shown to have any control over the universe at large.

I wasn't contradicting anything - light can exist without space. But it can't do anything of note without it. Just like how a car can exist, but can't drive without a driver and a surface to drive on. In a Palutena VS Rosalina situation, Palutena would be the "driver" of the "car" (light), but Rosalina would be able to completely mess with the surface (space).

Pit still needed help to fly to those bosses in the first place. He also had healing gifts dropped by Palutena/Viridi whenever he needed them (actual canon, Palutena drops some of the food and the Drink of the Gods bottles). He would not be able to deal with all of the stuff he did without divine help, and divine outfitting (his divine weapons). Not to mention the Powers.

Pit's success in Uprising is purely because of divine help, and even he vouches for this. For that reason, he stays where he is. His placement on my list assumes he only has access to his weapons (including the Three Sacred Treasures), items (X-Bombs and such), and his natural abilities, since we cannot assume he will have divine assistance, especially if fighting Palutena.

Also keep in mind my note about how someone below another character could, in some cases, defeat a character above them. This applies to Pit. Pit could take on the SS tiers with divine intervention. Not a surefire win, but he would have it in him.

Feel free to make your own list, but I am not budging on anyone in the SSS, SS, or S tiers on my list.

 

[Greda]

Smash Bros?

3D World?

But even without them - they don't need to be in a fight, it's about the power they possess. The whole point of thinking about who is stronger canonically is assuming they apply their skills in a fight anyway, so whether or not they have fought before is irrelevant. It just matters that they gave potential.

I wasn't including Smash Bros. when talking about Palutena and Rosalina, also Mario, Peach, Luigi, and Toad also posess quite similar abilities to Rosalina in 3D World.

I agree with you that the potential matters, but this topic is about who is the strongest character. Still, alongside Rosalina's abilities, Palutena can grant Pit Power-Ups and powers as well.

Still, other than that, I fall short on evidence about Palutenas abilities.

At this point, then, it's hard to tell either way.

I would still put Rosalina on the lower tier and will stay to that, because since the topic is "Who Is Strongest", we lack major evidence telling Rosalina is capable of fighting on a large scale, excluding Smash for both characters.

 

[ChikoLad]

II would still put Rosalina on the lower tier and will stay to that, because since the topic is "Who Is Strongest", we lack major evidence telling Rosalina is capable of fighting on a large scale, excluding Smash for both characters.

That alone grants her the ability to eradicate entire armies.

 

[nessokman]

She didn't even have a clue what the Aurum were. I'm sure she would know if she had some bearing over what goes on in space. She's never shown to have any control over the universe at large.

I wasn't contradicting anything - light can exist without space. But it can't do anything of note without it. Just like how a car can exist, but can't drive without a driver and a surface to drive on. In a Palutena VS Rosalina situation, Palutena would be the "driver" of the "car" (light), but Rosalina would be able to completely mess with the surface (space).

Pit still needed help to fly to those bosses in the first place. He also had healing gifts dropped by Palutena/Viridi whenever he needed them (actual canon, Palutena drops some of the food and the Drink of the Gods bottles). He would not be able to deal with all of the stuff he did without divine help, and divine outfitting (his divine weapons). Not to mention the Powers.

Pit's success in Uprising is purely because of divine help, and even he vouches for this. For that reason, he stays where he is. His placement on my list assumes he only has access to his weapons (including the Three Sacred Treasures), items (X-Bombs and such), and his natural abilities, since we cannot assume he will have divine assistance, especially if fighting Palutena.

Also keep in mind my note about how someone below another character could, in some cases, defeat a character above them. This applies to Pit. Pit could take on the SS tiers with divine intervention. Not a surefire win, but he would have it in him.

Feel free to make your own list, but I am not budging on anyone in the SSS, SS, or S tiers on my list.

It isn't mandatory that pit uses powers, or that he ate food, he needed NO divine intervention to defeat the vast majority of the gods he fought, it was his own physical strength that did it. His physical strength with his weapon is enough to topple more gods than shulk ever dreamed of seeing.

Pit is humble about his feats, that's why he says he relied so heavily on the gods.

On the subject of light, light can very well exist and function properly without the interference of space. Light by definition is radiant energy. As apposed to sound waves, which work only by passing through a medium such as air, light requires no medium in which it must pass through, and could exist without spacetime. light can work properly without space as a "Driver". They are separate entities all together.

Also, the proof of her having control in the universe is, ironically, the stars and galaxies that rosalina creates. Palutena has full controll over light, and what do all of those bllions of stars gve off? I rest my case. It may not be good in a combat stance, but that must require a crap load of power.

 

[ChikoLad]

It isn't mandatory that pit uses powers, or that he ate food, he needed NO divine intervention to defeat the vast majority of the gods he fought, it was his own physical strength that did it. His physical strength with his weapon is enough to topple more gods than shulk ever dreamed of seeing.

Pit is humble about his feats, that's why he says he relied so heavily on the gods.

On the subject of light, light can very well exist and function properly without the interference of space. Light by definition is radiant energy. As apposed to sound waves, which work only by passing through a medium such as air, light requires no medium in which it must pass through, and could exist without spacetime. light can work properly without space as a "Driver". They are separate entities all together.

Also, the proof of her having control in the universe is, ironically, the stars and galaxies that rosalina creates. Palutena has full controll over light, and what do all of those bllions of stars gve off? I rest my case. It may not be good in a combat stance, but that must require a crap load of power.

Or he just really needed the help of the gods. Pit is also very honest.

It can function, but my point is that Rosalina can mess with the surface. Palutena trying to fight using powers of holy light in Rosalina's cosmic domain (e.g. everything) is like trying to out-drive a lava flow from an active volcano during an earthquake. Too many disruptions are possible, by Rosalina's hand.

Palutena has control over holy light, not literal, natural light. It's not the same kind of light that gives the world literal light. Otherwise, why do they need Pyhrron, the Sun God (with the sun being a kind of star)?

 

[nessokman]

Or he just really needed the help of the gods. Pit is also very honest.

It can function, but my point is that Rosalina can mess with the surface. Palutena trying to fight using powers of holy light in Rosalina's cosmic domain (e.g. everything) is like trying to out-drive a lava flow from an active volcano during an earthquake. Too many disruptions are possible, by Rosalina's hand.

Palutena has control over holy light, not literal, natural light. It's not the same kind of light that gives the world literal light. Otherwise, why do they need Pyhrron, the Sun God (with the sun being a kind of star)?

It never specified holy light, that is an assumption by you.

Rosalina can't mess with light by warping space, I literally JUST explained that light can exist and go the same without space or under almost any conditions. Greninja using his water to bend the light would be more of a threat than rosalina.

 

[ChikoLad]

It never specified holy light, that is an assumption by you.

Rosalina can't mess with light by warping space, I literally JUST explained that light can exist and go the same without space or under almost any conditions. Greninja using his water to bend the light would be more of a threat than rosalina.

The irony in this post is astonishing.

Again, if you want to make your own tier list, that's fine. But stop trying to get me to change mine with poorly thought out statements.

 

[JetpackX]

But...But...But... Palutena is a goddess...
A sexy cute goddess...
*nosebleed*

 

[Ffamran]

But...But...But... Palutena is a god...
A sexy cute god...
*nosebleed*

Palutena's a god? As in a male? I'm so confused now.

For the whole Shulk being above everyone else, as far as I know, he didn't remain as a god, instead, he chose to be human. This is like saying Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII is the most powerful Final Fantasy character when she too, decided that there should be no gods or goddesses and left the world to human fate and became human again. I would also like to say that she took down a god who created most of the FFXIII world and tried to create another world. How powerful she is depends on which Lightning we're looking at. Human Lightning? About as strong as Snake, Little Mac, and Marth. L'Cie? Probably as powerful as Ike, Link, and Samus. As Etro's Guardian? At best she'd revival Ganondorf. And then we have the Savior who'd be on equal terms as Palutena, Demise, Rosalina, and Zelda as Hylia.

Kratos killed gods as a god and a demi-god. Dante, a half-blood demon, killed a devil when his brother Vergil couldn't - he was weakened at the end of DMC3. Link took down Demise, a being who almost destroyed the gods and took control of the Zelda world. Ike killed a goddess while the rest of the Fire Emblem characters took down dragons and demons. Dracula from the Castlevania: Lord of Shadows games was a vampire on equal footing with the Devil, the closest thing to God.

Just because something's a "god" doesn't mean they're invincible. Dr. Manhattan isn't a god, but he's extremely powerful. He can die, but how is up in the air. God Shulk can be omnipotent as much as he wants, but other omnipotent beings out there.

Ugh... This reminds me when people talked about how Ghost Rider would (canonically) kick everyone's butt in Ultimate Marvel. vs Capcom 3.

 

[JetpackX]

Palutena's a god? As in a male? I'm so confused now.

yes, shes a man. thats why i love her

Ugh... This reminds me when people talked about how Ghost Rider would (canonically) kick everyone's butt in Ultimate Marvel. vs Capcom 3.

Wouldn't Vergil kick Ghost Rider's butt because... he needs more power?
And he's pretty much a demon?

 

[Ffamran]

yes, shes a man. thats why i love her



Wouldn't Vergil kick Ghost Rider's butt because... he needs more power?
And he's pretty much a demon?

I know, it's just you typed "god" instead of "goddess".

As for Ghost Rider, people started arguing about his ability to instant win against anyone with this one power that Ghost Rider has which is funny since Ghost Rider was under someone's control in the comics - I don't know much about him - and supposedly, Ghost Rider is a servant of God so that means God probably can defeat him. Vergil is an issue since we never get to see him become stronger since he dies in Devil May Cry 1 while Dante gets stronger and stronger - in Devil May Cry 2 it's implied Dante could go to hell and not give a damn.

DmC Vergil appears to be weaker than DmC Dante since that Dante relied on brute strength and didn't reject his heritage like DMC Dante did. DmC Vergil appeared to be the weaker brother since his childhood despite showing better magic control, swordsmanship, and having a refined fighting style while Dante was just a brawler.

 

[nessokman]

The irony in this post is astonishing.

Again, if you want to make your own tier list, that's fine. But stop trying to get me to change mine with poorly thought out statements.

They aren't poorly thought out. I used what science knows about how light works. You're obviously biased towards Rosalina, your avatar supports that assumption.

Palutena's a god? As in a male? I'm so confused now.

For the whole Shulk being above everyone else, as far as I know, he didn't remain as a god, instead, he chose to be human. This is like saying Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII is the most powerful Final Fantasy character when she too, decided that there should be no gods or goddesses and left the world to human fate and became human again. I would also like to say that she took down a god who created most of the FFXIII world and tried to create another world. How powerful she is depends on which Lightning we're looking at. Human Lightning? About as strong as Snake, Little Mac, and Marth. L'Cie? Probably as powerful as Ike, Link, and Samus. As Etro's Guardian? At best she'd revival Ganondorf. And then we have the Savior who'd be on equal terms as Palutena, Demise, Rosalina, and Zelda as Hylia.

Kratos killed gods as a god and a demi-god. Dante, a half-blood demon, killed a devil when his brother Vergil couldn't - he was weakened at the end of DMC3. Link took down Demise, a being who almost destroyed the gods and took control of the Zelda world. Ike killed a goddess while the rest of the Fire Emblem characters took down dragons and demons. Dracula from the Castlevania: Lord of Shadows games was a vampire on equal footing with the Devil, the closest thing to God.

Just because something's a "god" doesn't mean they're invincible. Dr. Manhattan isn't a god, but he's extremely powerful. He can die, but how is up in the air. God Shulk can be omnipotent as much as he wants, but other omnipotent beings out there.

Ugh... This reminds me when people talked about how Ghost Rider would (canonically) kick everyone's butt in Ultimate Marvel. vs Capcom 3.

i had forgotten that ike defeated a goddess As well, that would put him up there near pit, though I do think that pit would be a bit stronger than ike, given he has an advantage if range.

Ike also required extreme amounts of power given by the other goddess, if I recall.

 

[Ffamran]

i had forgotten that ike defeated a goddess As well, that would put him up there near pit, though I do think that pit would be a bit stronger than ike, given he has an advantage if range.

Ike also required extreme amounts of power given by the other goddess, if I recall.

Yeah, I think Ike did get help which is why I mention "versions" or "states" of characters. Skyward Sword Link is the most powerful Link to date since he had the full Triforce and had access to all of the Master Sword's power - no other Link used the Skyward Strike besides Hyrule Warriors Link; most of them used sword beams related to magic. If we combined all of the Links, then the average Link wouldn't be that powerful, but he wouldn't be that weak. Regular Ike is powerful, but "empowered" Ike was the only Ike to defeat a goddess, without that power, he'd be helpless.

 

[Commedore]

Mewtwo can crush mountains with his mind.
Mewtwo carry's a 10 foot spoon around in the Manga
Mewtwo was able to exceed earths escape velocity while carrying a Genecectn for a combined weight of 205 kg, cutting out the mathematical aspect that means he produced about the same amount of energy as a standard nuclear blast.
Mewtwo could theoretically fry your brainstem and make you brain dead. Being invincible doesn't really work if you can't use your brain.

Mewtwo master race.

 

[Ffamran]

Mewtwo can crush mountains with his mind.
Mewtwo carry's a 10 foot spoon around in the Manga
Mewtwo was able to exceed earths escape velocity while carrying a Genecectn for a combined weight of 205 kg, cutting out the mathematical aspect that means he produced about the same amount of energy as a standard nuclear blast.
Mewtwo could theoretically fry your brainstem and make you brain dead. Being invincible doesn't really work if you can't use your brain.

Mewtwo master race.

Mew3. Your argument is now invalid.

 

[Commedore]

Mew3. Your argument is now invalid.

I-I did the math. I don't know how but I admit defeat, you truly are a master of logics.

 

[nessokman]

Mew3. Your argument is now invalid.

I-I did the math. I don't know how but I admit defeat, you truly are a master of logics.

 

[Greda]

I shall make my own tier list 'cause why not.

SSS Tier:
SS Tier:
S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
D Tier:
F Tier:

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I shall make my own tier list 'cause why not.

SSS Tier:
SS Tier:
S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
D Tier:
F Tier:

Dedede should be bumped up, DK should be bumped up, Mac should be bumped up, Peach should be bumped up, Cap. Falcon should be bumped up, Rosalina should REALLY be bumped up. Pikachu should also be bumped down.

 

[KingBroly]

Mega Man is gonna suck. Sonic too.

 

[ChikoLad]

They aren't poorly thought out. I used what science knows about how light works. You're obviously biased towards Rosalina, your avatar supports that assumption.

i had forgotten that ike defeated a goddess As well, that would put him up there near pit, though I do think that pit would be a bit stronger than ike, given he has an advantage if range.

Ike also required extreme amounts of power given by the other goddess, if I recall.

Oh look, the most common assumption on this site - "Your avatar must mean you are biased, your arguments are invalid due to your avatar".

You didn't use what science knows about how light works. I never disagreed with the notion that light can exist without space. However, space heavily influences light when it is present, science will also tell you this. Global Illumination being a prime example. Rosalina could easily reflect any of Palutena's light based attacks with her basic bubble shield (it can withstand the impact of Mario's ground pound, which can break open all sorts of things and travels at an insane velocity without the need to accelerate, so beams of light and such should be no problem, especially since the barrier itself seems to be formed from light), and even direct them or nullify them by way of creating obstructions, natural or cosmic. Not to mention that Rosalina has mind control (and we all know how vulnerable Palutena is to that), control over gravity, and some kind of psychokinesis (this may actually be her control over gravity at play, but the effect is the same either way). That's just a few of her techniques that crap all over anything Palutena could hope to do to her.

Not that science applies too much to Palutena's holy light, since it's more a metaphorical term in her instance. But the main point here is that Palutena has already limited control over one planet (as she only controls specific parts of it. Other gods control other parts), while Rosalina has control over the universe itself, and has displayed no clear limits to her power, which is why she always seems to get wild new abilities in each game she appears in that isn't Mario Kart.

I've always interpreted Palutena's "Goddess of Light" position as symbolic of the fact that she is supposed to keep law and order more than anything, and that she is limited in her power for that very reason - if given too much power, she might do the opposite.

 

[dbwithlemon]

So, to chime in about the whole Pokemon Trainer is the most powerful because he has all pokemon and thus can control time and space and all that jazz.

That arguement is invalid.

The trainer in smash has 3 and only 3 pokemon, giving him a National Pokedex is something not represented. I'm sure not every trainer has one, so it's not fair to assume this one does.

If we're going with the idea that the character of your choice can have items they aren't represnted with in game, then I pick Yoshi.
My yoshi happened to have swallowed the national pokedex and spits out pokeballs, while also dual wielding the Monado and Master sword(one attached to his tongue, the other in his tail.)

 

[Greda]

Dedede should be bumped up, DK should be bumped up, Mac should be bumped up, Peach should be bumped up, Cap. Falcon should be bumped up, Rosalina should REALLY be bumped up. Pikachu should also be bumped down.

To be honest I just didn't devote much time with it and I was going to come back and edit it later.

Even so, I do agree with most of the things you say and changed some things around in my most recent edit.

 

[erico9001]

I'm glad to see that Shulk's case has been made @josh bones

Now the discussion for Shulk has transitioned to interpretations of the semantics from the original question.

'When, in the game, should the character be considered?' - This is a tough question because it does not have a definitive answer. Shulk with the Junk Sword and Shulk as a god are both Shulk. Because of that, I think this is a question that the group must come to an agreement on. Then, since the authority of the discussion is those partaking in it, it can be said that 'this' is when the character should be considered.

'Shulk uses the first Monado in Smash 4.' - This is discussion about the characters as they appear in their canonical games, not how they appear in Smash Bros. If we were to only consider the things that the character has in Smash Bros, how could Ness possibly be ranked since he shares almost nothing in common with how he is in Earthbound? I believe that the actual meaning of the question, as well as the way most people are taking this discussion, is that the character's inclusion into Smash Bros is a requirement to be added into the discussion, but the actual discussion takes place between references to the canon appearances of the character that have no roots in Smash Bros.

From my perspective, it is fairest that characters get to be considered when they are at the height of their power, due to storylines and characters having different styles of progression.

 

[ChikoLad]

I want to tweak mine a bit:

SSS Tier:
SS Tier:
S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
X Tier (Unranked):

Moved Link up two tiers and Toon Link up one.

The latter might still go up one, but thinking back on it Link should be equal to Pit. In Palutena's trailer, Link was about to win before Palutena showed up, and the two were fighting with canon abilities, Link seemingly using a limited arsenal at that.

There's also a bunch of other reasons but yeah, I don't know what I was thinking putting the Links in B Tier. O.O

 

[Ravio_Yo]

If we're using "gameplay story segregation" as an argument, shouldn't Story trump Gameplay for a canon battle? I mean, if anything is being skewed from the "canon" events, it's the gameplay.

Also, if Pit doesn't get divine powers considered, does that mean Link doesn't get Magic? I mean, powers given to him by fairies, after all.

No way is Falcon anywhere near S tier.

Are you including Grima for Robin?

 

[ChikoLad]

If we're using "gameplay story segregation" as an argument, shouldn't Story trump Gameplay for a canon battle? I mean, if anything is being skewed from the "canon" events, it's the gameplay.

Also, if Pit doesn't get divine powers considered, does that mean Link doesn't get Magic? I mean, powers given to him by fairies, after all.

No way is Falcon anywhere near S tier.

Are you including Grima for Robin?

Yes, story trumps gameplay. Hence why I'm putting Rosalina where she is. The fact that she "needed" help in Galaxy is bullcrap if I consider what she actually does in cutscenes and such. The fact that Rosalina can die by touching a Goomba in 3D World doesn't mean anything, since touch damage is an arbitrary game mechanic, and has come and gone for many Smash characters. For example, Sonic doesn't take touch damage in Sonic Unleashed (enemies actually have to attack him), yet he does take it from the very same enemies in Sonic Generations. These games are even built in the same engine. It's just a game design choice that isn't at all explained in the story.

As far as I can remember, TP Link (the one in question for Smash) doesn't use magic like in old Zelda games, only tools and weaponry.

I've already explained why I put Falcon where he is. I don't consider GX canon, since it's made by SEGA. The only F-Zero game with story that was done by Nintendo is the GBA tie-in for the anime, with the anime also being Nintendo's product, therefore, I consider that version of Falcon to be canon, and he's powerful. It also lines up pretty well with Smash Bros too, the only other real portrayal of Falcon by Nintendo.

I haven't played FE:A, but I do know Robin is powerful from what little I know. I figured he/she should be high up.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I don't have any sort of sorting for who is the most powerful, but I'd like people to keep in mind while arguing:

1.) Majora's Mask was able to bring down the moon. An entire moon. While this isn't on black hole levels of power, it's still astronomically (No pun intended) broken.
2.) Majora's Mask was also able to curse/seal away Termina's protectors, who were four giants with enough strength to STOP said moon from falling (At least until Majora caused it to fall even harder, so gravity control?)
3.) Fierce Deity Link utterly wipes the floor with him with minimal effort. Seriously, fighting MM with FD is such an anticlimax fight, I've had harder fights with the main 4 bosses.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't have any sort of sorting for who is the most powerful, but I'd like people to keep in mind while arguing:

1.) Majora's Mask was able to bring down the moon. An entire moon. While this isn't on black hole levels of power, it's still astronomically (No pun intended) broken.
2.) Majora's Mask was also able to curse/seal away Termina's protectors, who were four giants with enough strength to STOP said moon from falling (At least until Majora caused it to fall even harder, so gravity control?)
3.) Fierce Deity Link utterly wipes the floor with him with minimal effort. Seriously, fighting MM with FD is such an anticlimax fight, I've had harder fights with the main 4 bosses.

The Link in Smash 4 is the one from Twilight Princess, hence, I am not taking Majora's Mask tools and feats into consideration, including FDL (Fierce Deity Link).

Link is still a boss, though.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

So, to chime in about the whole Pokemon Trainer is the most powerful because he has all pokemon and thus can control time and space and all that jazz.

That arguement is invalid.

The trainer in smash has 3 and only 3 pokemon, giving him a National Pokedex is something not represented. I'm sure not every trainer has one, so it's not fair to assume this one does.

If we're going with the idea that the character of your choice can have items they aren't represnted with in game, then I pick Yoshi.
My yoshi happened to have swallowed the national pokedex and spits out pokeballs, while also dual wielding the Monado and Master sword(one attached to his tongue, the other in his tail.)

Yes, the trainer does get the National Dex. You're still talking about Smash, we're going completely out of Smash. By your logic, Mario only gets a Fire Flower/Cape Flower/F.L.U.D.D., Kirby can only use Hammer/Cutter/Stone/Cook/Ultra Sword, and Link loses a bunch of his equipment.
Also by your logic, people can use things that they can only use in Smash. So Samus gets her Zero Laser and annihilates everyone.
Canonically, the Trainer's got the National Dex.