Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[WrappedInBlack]

Sonic... he beats gods on a daily basis pretty much... so Palutena's got nothing on him... if Rosi counts as a Space Goddess then he beats her too... He's pretty much greater than or equal to the rest of the smashers in terms of overall strength... but he shouldn't be below any of them.

 

[ChikoLad]

Sonic... he beats gods on a daily basis pretty much... so Palutena's got nothing on him... if Rosi counts as a Space Goddess then he beats her too... He's pretty much greater than or equal to the rest of the smashers in terms of overall strength... but he shouldn't be below any of them.

Just because he killed some gods doesn't mean he can kill any. The gods he killed had clear weaknesses, like Palutena does. However, Shulk and Rosalina haven't shown such a thing when at that status.

People need to understand that "god" is merely indicative of a role. Gods generally would be powerful, but not all gods are uber tough, while some are. Sonic may have killed weaker gods.

Not that I think Sonic isn't strong though, I put him at SS tier for a reason.

 

[nessokman]

Rosalina could easily reflect any of Palutena's light based attacks with her basic bubble shield (it can withstand the impact of Mario's ground pound, which can break open all sorts of things and travels at an insane velocity without the need to accelerate, so beams of light and such should be no problem, especially since the barrier itself seems to be formed from light)

lol at the concept that mario's ground pound being stronger than light. Mario would fall at a constant of 9.8 Meters per second, gradually building speed. You can't POSSIBLY say that him smashing his @$$ into you is stronger than a beam of holy light traveling at a constant speed of 299,792,458 meters per second smashing into you.

But the main point here is that Palutena has already limited control over one planet (as she only controls specific parts of it. Other gods control other parts), while Rosalina has control over the universe itself, and has displayed no clear limits to her power, which is why she always seems to get wild new abilities in each game she appears in that isn't Mario Kart.

I've already dealt with this foolish idea, but I'll do away with it once more. Palutena is a goddess who controls any and all light, if she didn't. Her main focus is the earth because of humans, it could be that Zeus (Actually in kid icarus NES), told her to watch over the humans. All of the gods and goddesses in the KI series do their jobs in their domains.It's only natural to think that palutena controls ALL light, not only on earth.

Also, you debunked her limited-to-earth power when you mentioned where she hid the three sacred treasures. She didn't go to hide them herself, centurions could never have made that trip, and pit would have remembered it if he had done it, her powers must have extensions across the universe.

 

[ChikoLad]

lol at the concept that mario's ground pound being stornger than light. Mario would fall at a constant of 9.8 Meters per second, gradually building speed. You can't POSSIBLY say that him smashing his @$$ into you is stronger than a beam of holy light traveling at a constant speed of 299,792,458 meters per second smashing into you.



I've already dealt with this foolish idea, but I'll do away with it once more. Palutena is a goddess who controls any and all light, if she didn't. Her main focus is the earth because of humans, it could be that Zeus (Actually in kid icarus NES), told her to watch over the humans. All of the gods and goddesses in the KI series do their jobs in their domains.It's only natural to think that palutena controls ALL light, not only on earth.

I don't know. I've seen Mario's ground pound break through huge piles of rock slabs, and move small planets (Puzzle Plank Galaxy's level design is one example). Palutena's mighty light beams don't even seem to break through wooden structures. So I doubt it would be a problem for Rosalina to block them with her own light shields, which can block Mario's ground pound.

The ironic thing here is that you are trying so hard to apply science to a god.

And your last point is pure and utter fanon. Palutena only has control over certain things. She can't part seas, for example, as it's not her element.
She can't control the cosmos or the Sun, since they are not her element.
She can't influence nature or the structure of the world, as it's not her element.

Et cetera, et cetera.

Palutena only has direct control over Skyworld. Nothing else. Her "Goddess of Light" status refers to her role - light being "good" or "all that is pure". As far as powers go, she just has a bunch of general magic abilities, that are themselves limited. She's not some almighty goddess, otherwise, she wouldn't need Pit, or an army.

In fact, this whole discussion has made me consider moving her DOWN, rather than up...

EDIT: I KNEW I WAS MISSING SOMEONE

SSS Tier:
SS Tier:
S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
X Tier (Unranked):

I forgot about our man Little Mac.

Putting him in the B tier though. He's an extremely capable fighter as far as normal people go, but realistically, he doesn't hold a candle to the very supernatural things that start coming into the A Tier and above.

 

[nessokman]

I don't know. I've seen Mario's ground pound break through huge piles of rock slabs, and move small planets (Puzzle Plank Galaxy's level design is one example). Palutena's mighty light beams don't even seem to break through wooden structures. So I doubt it would be a problem for Rosalina to block them with her own light shields, which can block Mario's ground pound.

The ground slam moving planets was a plot device to make a cool puzzle, nothing more. Light is only powerful if focused, and depending on intensity. Light won't damage physical structures as much as it would tissue, given that focused light can get extremely hot.

And your last point is pure and utter fanon. Palutena only has control over certain things.

She said herself that she hid them, that SHE DID IT HERSELF. Her powers must have had a part in that, as pit would have remembered it, and centurions are worthless. She might have used a teleportation power not shown in game, or perhaps a door. Either way it proves her powers can be used outside of earth.

She can't control the cosmos or the Sun, since they are not her element.
She can't influence nature or the structure of the world, as it's not her element.
She can't part seas, for example, as it's not her element.

Well of COURSE the freaking goddess of light can't part oceans or control the cosmos or sun, I never said that! She does technically influence nature if she controls light, given that plants need light for photosynthesis.

Palutena only has direct control over Skyworld. Nothing else. Her "Goddess of Light" status refers to her role - light being "good" or "all that is pure".

Funny, I do remember her being able to hide the sacred treasures, activate the power of flight,keeping telepathically linked to pit, as well as opening her doors into space.Those are examples of her using power outside of earth, unless space around earth constitutes as still being earth, and then you are just grasping at straws.

The ironic thing here is that you are trying so hard to apply science to a god.

You've done the same thing, don't even try to call me out on it.


Palutena can also-
-Levitation: During her fight with pit, palutena was shown to be able to levitate.
-Shape shifting gods/people/angels. The game SAID that palutena turned pit into a ring, and that she reflected what she saw in medusa's heart, giving her that awful appearance.

 

[ChikoLad]

The ground slam moving planets was a plot device to make a cool puzzle, nothing more. Light is only powerful if focused, and depending on intensity. Light won't damage physical structures as much as it would tissue, given that focused light can get extremely hot.

Stop being biased. Mario moved planets. This was a game mechanic. That ground pound is strong. He even used it to fight Bowser. Rosalina blocks a planet shifting ground pound like it's nothing. And her barrier is constructed of light anyway, so she can obviously take it's heat. Also the Comet Observatory's engine is literally powered by what appears to be a mini-sun (the big glowy lava ball in the middle), and she casually stands in front of it on a regular basis.

She said herself that she hid them, that SHE DID IT HERSELF. Her powers must have had a part in that, as pit would have remembered it, and centurions are worthless.

She hid them. Great. I can bury treasure in a forest with my shovel and nobody could ever find it, doesn't mean I'm suddenly in control of all nature.

Well of COURSE the freaking goddess of light can't part oceans or control the cosmos or sun, I never said that! She does technically influence nature if she controls light, given that plants need light for photosynthesis.

Plants specifically need sunlight to grow. Palutena doesn't control this.

Funny, I do remember her being able to hide the sacred treasures, activate the power of flight,keeping telepathically linked to pit, as well as opening her doors into space.Those are examples of her using power outside of earth, unless space around earth constitutes as still being earth, and then you are just grasping at straws.

This is actually part of my own point - Palutena's powers don't necessarily revolve around light itself, and I'm surprised you haven't taken note of this sooner. She can do other things that are not necessarily linked to light as an element, such as the power of flight.

But you are still completely exaggerating what these things mean. Opening a door in space doesn't mean she controls all of space, especially since she seems very limited in where she places them. It just means she can open doors. It should also be noted that the one door she opens in space is still basically within earth's atmosphere (Chapter 17). The other space levels actually depict the door being opened within Earth, and Pit flying into space thereafter.

Rosalina, on the other hand, is literally referred to, by title, as "mother/watcher/protector of the Cosmos", implying she has control (and outright seen in how she gives the universe it's rebirth). Even without that, Rosalina's abilities are far greater and far less limited than Palutena's.

I'm ending this discussion here as, for the umpteenth time, you can make your own list if you seriously must see Palutena in a higher tier. Or you could use a different system altogether. However, after all this time, you have not convinced me that Palutena would be stronger than Rosalina or Shulk. And I can tell you that you cannot and will not. So again, make your own list if you really must see someone claim Palutena is the almighty Nintendo character of the ages.

 

[nessokman]

Stop being biased. Mario moved planets. This was a game mechanic. That ground pound is strong. He even used it to fight Bowser. Rosalina blocks a planet shifting ground pound like it's nothing. And her barrier is constructed of light anyway, so she can obviously take it's heat. Also the Comet Observatory's engine is literally powered by what appears to be a mini-sun (the big glowy lava ball in the middle), and she casually stands in front of it on a regular basis.



She hid them. Great. I can bury treasure in a forest with my shovel and nobody could ever find it, doesn't mean I'm suddenly in control of all nature.



Plants specifically need sunlight to grow. Palutena doesn't control this.



This is actually part of my own point - Palutena's powers don't necessarily revolve around light itself, and I'm surprised you haven't taken note of this sooner. She can do other things that are not necessarily linked to light as an element, such as the power of flight.

But you are still completely exaggerating what these things mean. Opening a door in space doesn't mean she controls all of space, especially since she seems very limited in where she places them. It just means she can open doors. It should also be noted that the one door she opens in space is still basically within earth's atmosphere (Chapter 17). The other space levels actually depict the door being opened within Earth, and Pit flying into space thereafter.

Rosalina, on the other hand, is literally referred to, by title, as "mother/watcher/protector of the Cosmos", implying she has control (and outright seen in how she gives the universe it's rebirth). Even without that, Rosalina's abilities are far greater and far less limited than Palutena's.

I'm ending this discussion here as, for the umpteenth time, you can make your own list if you seriously must see Palutena in a higher tier. Or you could use a different system altogether. However, after all this time, you have not convinced me that Palutena would be stronger than Rosalina or Shulk. And I can tell you that you cannot and will not. So again, make your own list if you really must see someone claim Palutena is the almighty Nintendo character of the ages.

But no matter, she has power in space regardless.She commands light, which is everywhere, meaning she controls all light.

I never said she was stronger, but she certainly outclasses all of the ones you put her with....

 

[ChikoLad]

But no matter, she has power in space regardless.She commands light, which is everywhere, meaning she controls all light.

I never said she was stronger, but she certainly outclasses all of the ones you put her with....

Palutena does not control all light (literally an impossible claim due to Pyhrron), and her light isn't even implied to be hot since I have not once seen it burn things.

And Palutena does not outclass Kirby and Sonic automatically. Kirby defeated Magalor as he attempted to re-shape the universe. Sonic defeated Perfect Chaos, a god, using ONLY his natural abilities, WHILE in a flooded city, in Sonic Generations. Sonic defeated a god that has full control over Sonic's greatest weakness, using nothing but his raw abilities, no Chaos Emeralds or help from anything.

 

[SmashShadow]

Lets not forget people:
Donkey Kong... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LleGVbLHx2w
And Robin is practically a god himself due to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7H-LFdqZng

 

[nessokman]

Palutena does not control all light (literally an impossible claim due to Pyhrron), and her light isn't even implied to be hot since I have not once seen it burn things.
.

Light can produce extreme heat, please see:
-Heat lamps

Not to mention that light being radiant energy, depending on the particles used it could be incredibly overpowered. Alpha and Beta particles that make up most radiation are harmless to humans, but gamma (ultraviolet) are incredibly damaging, known to cause cancers and destroy cells.

She could just shoot a beam of cell destroying cancer causing ultraviolet light, and nobody would be able to see it because the eye can't detect it normally. Though palutena is too much of a goody goody to do that, it would be useful.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

The Link in Smash 4 is the one from Twilight Princess, hence, I am not taking Majora's Mask tools and feats into consideration, including FDL (Fierce Deity Link).

Link is still a boss, though.

B-but...he has an FD recolor...

 

[ChikoLad]

Light can produce extreme heat, please see:
-Heat lamps

Not to mention that light being radiant energy, depending on the particles used it could be incredibly overpowered. Alpha and Beta particles that make up most radiation are harmless to humans, but gamma (ultraviolet) are incredibly damaging, known to cause cancers and destroy cells.

She could just shoot a beam of cell destroying cancer causing ultraviolet light, and nobody would be able to see it because the eye can't detect it normally. Though palutena is too much of a goody goody to do that, it would be useful.

Again, we can make use of Palutena's light based powers in Uprising. And it doesn't cause a burn effect, a literal status ailment in Uprising.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm glad to see that Shulk's case has been made @josh bones

Now the discussion for Shulk has transitioned to interpretations of the semantics from the original question.

'When, in the game, should the character be considered?' - This is a tough question because it does not have a definitive answer. Shulk with the Junk Sword and Shulk as a god are both Shulk. Because of that, I think this is a question that the group must come to an agreement on. Then, since the authority of the discussion is those partaking in it, it can be said that 'this' is when the character should be considered.

'Shulk uses the first Monado in Smash 4.' - This is discussion about the characters as they appear in their canonical games, not how they appear in Smash Bros. If we were to only consider the things that the character has in Smash Bros, how could Ness possibly be ranked since he shares almost nothing in common with how he is in Earthbound? I believe that the actual meaning of the question, as well as the way most people are taking this discussion, is that the character's inclusion into Smash Bros is a requirement to be added into the discussion, but the actual discussion takes place between references to the canon appearances of the character that have no roots in Smash Bros.

From my perspective, it is fairest that characters get to be considered when they are at the height of their power, due to storylines and characters having different styles of progression.

The only issue with that is the that some characters have heights and peaks like Ike and Shulk. Ike's prime or height would be Radiant Dawn Ike as a Vanguard, but Ike's peak is when he was blessed by Yune so he could take down Ashera and after that, he returned to being at his prime. Shulk's prime would be before he became an omnipotent god which is his peak and that lasted very shortly. If every character was considered at their peak, then powerful gods and goddesses like Shulk, Zelda as Hylia, Ganondorf as Demise, Palutena - whatever her peak is -, and Rosalina - same thing as Pally -, would be curbstomping characters like Fierce Deity Link - a powerful form compared to Skyward Sword Link who had the Triforce and full access to the Master Sword's powers -, Marth - his peak would be laughable compared to those gods and goddesses - and blessed Ike who was given powers to slay a goddess.

The other issue is characters sometimes being composite characters like Snake and Dante in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. Snake is more of Solid Snake, but his beard, a trait that Big Boss always had; usage of the C3 butterfly, palette swaps referencing Big Boss's camos in Snake Eater, and reactions to eating food make Snake more of a Snake and Big Boss combination. Dante in UMvC3 had the appearance of DMC3 Dante, ability to switch styles like DMC4 Dante - it can be argued that if development had thought of it, then DMC3 would have had on-the-fly style switching -, and, I think, a personality mixture of DMC3 and 4. These characters would be different in powers.

Another example is Ike in Brawl. He had his Ranger appearance from Path of Radiance, but used Ragnell which he wouldn't get until he was a Lord in PoR. Brawl Ike would in theory be weaker than Lord Ike, but stronger than Ranger Ike. Now we have Ike based on his Hero class in Radiant Dawn meaning he's weaker than his Vanguard self. There's Link too who is more like Twilight Princess Link, but has traits of multiple Links.

 

[IvanQuote]

Just because he killed some gods doesn't mean he can kill any. The gods he killed had clear weaknesses, like Palutena does. However, Shulk and Rosalina haven't shown such a thing when at that status.

People need to understand that "god" is merely indicative of a role. Gods generally would be powerful, but not all gods are uber tough, while some are. Sonic may have killed weaker gods.

Not that I think Sonic isn't strong though, I put him at SS tier for a reason.

As much as I love Sonic, I agree. Also when he fought gods, they posed a huge challenge: Perfect Chaos was probably a lesser god, as later Sonic could beat him without the Super Form. Solaris required 3 super beings to beat, as he controlled all of time, and even then he just beat the mental core of it. Perfect Dark Gaia required the Gaia Colossus to beat and even then Sonic fainted after the battle was over, something that has NEVER happened before when reverting (I believe it says somewhere that he normally is at peak condition when he does revert, so this proves how difficult it was for him). Also keep in mind that these last two can freely HURT Super Sonic, so god-like beings can possibly injure him (Palutena's Glam Blaster or a spacial rend may do the trick).

 

[Ravio_Yo]

How does Rosalina actually hurt people? The only powers she could use to injure someone is her spin or jumping on their head, no? I mean, a lot of that would hurt if done while giant, but still. And it's not like her mind control is a big deal, as 1. there's no proof she can control a person unwillingly, 2. There's no proof that she can make a person do what they don't want to do, and 3. Most of these guys have resistance to mind control.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

How does Rosalina actually hurt people? The only powers she could use to injure someone is her spin or jumping on their head, no? I mean, a lot of that would hurt if done while giant, but still. And it's not like her mind control is a big deal, as 1. there's no proof she can control a person unwillingly, 2. There's no proof that she can make a person do what they don't want to do, and 3. Most of these guys have resistance to mind control.

This.

That alone grants her the ability to eradicate entire armies.

 

[ChikoLad]

How does Rosalina actually hurt people? The only powers she could use to injure someone is her spin or jumping on their head, no? I mean, a lot of that would hurt if done while giant, but still. And it's not like her mind control is a big deal, as 1. there's no proof she can control a person unwillingly, 2. There's no proof that she can make a person do what they don't want to do, and 3. Most of these guys have resistance to mind control.

Read my eariler post listing off her powers and such, and for an easy example, yet again:

And mind control is mind control. I've never once seen a character who had the stipulation of "needing permission" to control someone's mind, so why pretend it would be a stipulation here? Furthermore, how could such a stipulation even exist, logically? And most of these guys don't have resistance to mind control at all.

As much as I love Sonic, I agree. Also when he fought gods, they posed a huge challenge: Perfect Chaos was probably a lesser god, as later Sonic could beat him without the Super Form. Solaris required 3 super beings to beat, as he controlled all of time, and even then he just beat the mental core of it. Perfect Dark Gaia required the Gaia Colossus to beat and even then Sonic fainted after the battle was over, something that has NEVER happened before when reverting (I believe it says somewhere that he normally is at peak condition when he does revert, so this proves how difficult it was for him). Also keep in mind that these last two can freely HURT Super Sonic, so god-like beings can possibly injure him (Palutena's Glam Blaster or a spacial rend may do the trick).

This is why I put him at SS Tier. On his own I still think he's above a lot of the cast. But if he has things like the Chaos Emeralds on hand, he definitely can take on a god, even if it isn't a surefire win. And since I believe Palutena is a lesser god much like Perfect Chaos, I put Sonic and Palutena in the same tier.

 

[dbwithlemon]

Yes, the trainer does get the National Dex. You're still talking about Smash, we're going completely out of Smash. By your logic, Mario only gets a Fire Flower/Cape Flower/F.L.U.D.D., Kirby can only use Hammer/Cutter/Stone/Cook/Ultra Sword, and Link loses a bunch of his equipment.
Also by your logic, people can use things that they can only use in Smash. So Samus gets her Zero Laser and annihilates everyone.
Canonically, the Trainer's got the National Dex.

I'm ok with assuming that we're taking the canonical representation of each character in smash.
Link is link and will have access to all of Link's abilities.

Pokemon trainer is different, he isn't a specific person, thus he has no canon. Unless the canon is that every trainer has a national pokedex, and thus every trainer has access to all pokemon.

I'm way out of date on my pokemon lore, and the national dex didn't exist when I played, so I can't confirm if every trainer has access to one. However if everyone has access to every pokemon at all times, then it defeats the purpose of catching new ones. Additionally, if canonically there is only one of each legendary, how can 2 trainers with a national pokedex each have one?

All that to say, you can't say he's a specific trainer(ie. red) or he would have been called red. There are tons of named, and well known characters in the pokemon lore that could have been selected, but they weren't.
He's a generic trainer(evidenced by his complete lack of a name), he's some guy who's wandering around in the grass looking to catch a a weedle or something and not someone with a national pokedex.

 

[Ravio_Yo]

My Canon Tier List
I'm going to go with characters based off of the general level of ability shown, so Shulk won't be god tier because then I'd have to include Chaos Heart Luigi, and GST Pit, and all that, and that just becomes "Battle of the Plot Device" and no one wants that.
S tier:
A tier:
B tier:
C tier:
D tier:
E tier:
F tier:

I don't know anything about Pac-Man, so I just sort of lumped him with the rest of the "pretty meh" gang.

 

[RGXZERO]

I have a few things to say / ask. Sorry for the long post, I put a lot of logic and effort into it.
In my honest opinion, for Poke'mon Trainer, a.k.a "Red", We need to establish he should only have access to Poke'mon we "KNOW" he owns. I believe he is referred to the "Kanto Champion" but, I don't ever recall in-game that it's mentioned that he caught all 151 GEN 1 Poke'mon. We should go by strictly story canon, not player interaction (obviously the player in GEN I as Red can catch all 151 Poke'mon. In GEN III, (the GEN I remakes, 386 Poke'mon.)

This is the list of all known poke'mon he owns.This includes:

Main-Stream games (pkmn Red, Blue, Silver, Gold, etc.)- Pikachu, Espeon, Snorlax, Venasaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Lapras.
Poke'mon Stadium games (if it counts)- Meganium, Feraligatr, Typlosion, Jolteon, Scizcor, Tauros, Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Dragonite.
This means no Acreceus, Palkia, Dialga etc. for the sake of Red controlling time and space as he "does not own these Poke'mon".

If we consider the "Poke'mon Origins" special as canon, only then would he own almost all original (GEN I) 151 poke'mon (He is not seen catching Mew). We also have to factor in that Red "can only carry 6 of these Poke'mon at a time". He is unable to have access to all of them at once.

As for Mewtwo , how are we going to determine how powerful he really is? Are we really going to go by the non-canon Poke'mon anime movies, the Poke'mon Origins special, or strictly the games? Mewtwo in the origins special is noticeably MUCH less powerful than the Mewtwo depicted in the Movie and this special is a closer counterpart to the actual games than the movie.


I also have to ask, is there a complete list of Shulk's known abilities/ techniques? I was reading up that he is able to see into the future with future-sight, a godly technique indeed. It's basically Spiderman's "spider-sense" except more reliable.
However I have to ask, How would Shulk fair up to Sonic or even Super Sonic? I know Shulk has "Monado Speed", which increases his speed a bit, (though I don't know how much?) Even with "Future-sight & Manado Speed", would Shulk even be able to tag or even dodge Sonic / Super Sonic? Super Sonic especially with Chaos Control (Sonic has used chaos control's warping/ space manipulation properties before so he does know it) would be a nightmare for Shulk. I don't imagine him being able to dodge Super Sonic's speed-blitzing even if he was able to see it ahead of time. While this makes sense for other characters in Smash's history who have comparable speeds to Shulk. Sonic is arguably leagues above anyone else in Smash in terms of speed.

Compared to Sonic. I imagine Shulk as an average person running in a long closed off tunnel in a subway trying to run away from an incoming train. He knows way ahead that's it's coming before he hears or see its but he would get ran over as he can't get away fast enough in time.

EDIT: Also I like to state that I believe Lady Paluetena should be ranked higher than most people are listing her. Even above . Despite probably being a lesser god, Palutena is a Divine being who controls light and surely defeat Ganondorf/Ganon without any issue. Paluetena's only noticeable vulnerable moment was against the "Chaos Kin".

"Chaos Kin
An evil being "whose strange power may even surpass that of the gods". It is mindless, only possessing the desire to cause disorder and disaster. Long sealed in the Lunar Sanctum, the Chaos Kin is suddenly free to spread anarchy."
Plus it should be worth noting that although Pit is the one who saves the day, it couldn't have be done without Paluetena lending some of her power so he can fight in her stead. Finally not to mention, can Paluetena even be harmed by a being who who isn't divine/ a God? Pit was only able to harm her (if you so choose, you're not supposed to harm her) while she was controlled by the Chaos Kin only with the help of the other Goddess Viridi. Although Paluetena's army is quite PITtiful compared to Ganondorf's; on her own I believe she dominates the Demon King. I would put her above him.


My top tier:

X Tier: (Because goddess; No known weakness outside of possession by power considered possibly stronger than the gods.)
SSS Tier: (because only Light/divinity can harm/seal him. Can not handle the divinity of the Goddess of Light, Lady Paluetena.)

SS Tier: (Ganondorf can't tag Sonic but Sonic possibly can't harm Ganondorf nor Paluetena; Super Sonic's power contains questionable divinity; though Sonic has legendary hero status (in S&K, S&TBK and S&TSR) and is considered the true King Arthur in the world of the Black knight. As well, he is able to wield the sacred sword Excalibur. Caliburn's transformation to Excalibur was caused due to Sonic's willpower. Despite this, legendary /royalty status along with strong willpower may not measure up to divine status.)

S Tier: (Monado blade has Demi-God status, possible divinity; mythical sword doesn't mean divine. May be able to harm Ganondorf; possibly but unlikely Paluetena. Don't see Shulk tagging Sonic. Foresight enables Shulk to counter almost every other character in the entire Smash roster.)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'm ok with assuming that we're taking the canonical representation of each character in smash.
Link is link and will have access to all of Link's abilities.

Pokemon trainer is different, he isn't a specific person, thus he has no canon. Unless the canon is that every trainer has a national pokedex, and thus every trainer has access to all pokemon.

I'm way out of date on my pokemon lore, and the national dex didn't exist when I played, so I can't confirm if every trainer has access to one. However if everyone has access to every pokemon at all times, then it defeats the purpose of catching new ones. Additionally, if canonically there is only one of each legendary, how can 2 trainers with a national pokedex each have one?

All that to say, you can't say he's a specific trainer(ie. red) or he would have been called red. There are tons of named, and well known characters in the pokemon lore that could have been selected, but they weren't.
He's a generic trainer(evidenced by his complete lack of a name), he's some guy who's wandering around in the grass looking to catch a a weedle or something and not someone with a national pokedex.

Now, I agree that the Trainer isn't anyone specific, there are different trainers. There are also different Pikachus, Pichus, Jigglypuffs, Charizards, Greninjas, Lucarios, and even different Links. Not every Link uses Bombchus, though five do, so he deserves a Bombchu.

Not every Pokemon Trainer has a National Dex, but that doesn't mean that only a few can get them. The Dex is a common accomplishment, common enough so that it can be considered standard equipment. The Pokemon can't use their strong moves right away. Some Pokemon know the strong moves, others don't. Powerful things that can be reached should belong to a specific one of many we're evaluating.

And even if this trainer can't get Arceus or anyone like him, he still has access to hundreds of other Pokemon that can be used to form a nearly unstoppable army.

 

[Ravio_Yo]

Now, I agree that the Trainer isn't anyone specific, there are different trainers. There are also different Pikachus, Pichus, Jigglypuffs, Charizards, Greninjas, Lucarios, and even different Links. Not every Link uses Bombchus, though five do, so he deserves a Bombchu.

Not every Pokemon Trainer has a National Dex, but that doesn't mean that only a few can get them. The Dex is a common accomplishment, common enough so that it can be considered standard equipment. The Pokemon can't use their strong moves right away. Some Pokemon know the strong moves, others don't. Powerful things that can be reached should belong to a specific one of many we're evaluating.

And even if this trainer can't get Arceus or anyone like him, he still has access to hundreds of other Pokemon that can be used to form a nearly unstoppable army.

Can only hold six Pokémon though.

 

[nessokman]

Now, I agree that the Trainer isn't anyone specific, there are different trainers. There are also different Pikachus, Pichus, Jigglypuffs, Charizards, Greninjas, Lucarios, and even different Links. Not every Link uses Bombchus, though five do, so he deserves a Bombchu.

Not every Pokemon Trainer has a National Dex, but that doesn't mean that only a few can get them. The Dex is a common accomplishment, common enough so that it can be considered standard equipment. The Pokemon can't use their strong moves right away. Some Pokemon know the strong moves, others don't. Powerful things that can be reached should belong to a specific one of many we're evaluating.

And even if this trainer can't get Arceus or anyone like him, he still has access to hundreds of other Pokemon that can be used to form a nearly unstoppable army.

Trainers are still limited to 6 at ta time. It is also reasonable to stay the pkmn trainer is not finished with it.

 

[Deleted member]

ITT: People who have played Xenoblade and know Shulk is by far the strongest, and people who haven't played Xenoblade.
I could get into why, but it's both spoilers for Xenoblade and other people could explain it way better than I could.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Trainers are still limited to 6 at ta time. It is also reasonable to stay the pkmn trainer is not finished with it.

This isn't a Pokemon battle, it's a fight, so I'd say that the Trainer can throw out as many as he wants.

 

[nessokman]

This isn't a Pokemon battle, it's a fight, so I'd say that the Trainer can throw out as many as he wants.

That's grasping at straws to give your character the advantage. If we're following the canon in EVERY pokemon game, you can only carry 6 at a time, regardless of if you are actually in battle.

 

[RelaxAlax]

This thread goes on into circles because nobody checks the AMAZING posts in the earlier pages and comes in, posts an uninformed claim that character x is the strongest, without delving into the their cons, other characters feats and detailed explanation.

This is why I have stopped coming here, I use to love this thread but it's really tiring seeing the same points being made.

Maybe this is worth a video some time in the future? I have alot of source information in here to provide background and a base for research.

It's a hefty project ... maybe one day ...

 

[nessokman]

This thread goes on into circles because nobody checks the AMAZING posts in the earlier pages and comes in, posts an uninformed claim that character x is the strongest, without delving into the their cons, other characters feats and detailed explanation.

This is why I have stopped coming here, I use to love this thread but it's really tiring seeing the same points being made.

Maybe this is worth a video some time in the future? I have alot of source information in here to provide background and a base for research.

It's a hefty project ... maybe one day ...

I'm making this my project for this weekend. I'll attempt to weigh the pros and cons of each character and make a video. Not sure if u should do it over the whole smash series or just the new one though.

 

[kataridragon]

I have said this like 5 times in this thread.

FOR GOD SAKE ONLY ALLOW POKEMON TRAINER THE POKEMON HE CONTROLS IN BRAWL.

This discussion gets out of hand if he has access to whatever he wants. JEEZ. Keep it simple!

(I never use caps like that)

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

I have said this like 5 times in this thread.

FOR GOD SAKE ONLY ALLOW POKEMON TRAINER THE POKEMON HE CONTROLS IN BRAWL.

This discussion gets out of hand if he has access to whatever he wants. JEEZ. Keep it simple!

(I never use caps like that)

Why is Pokemon Trainer the only one limited by Brawl while the others get whatever from all their games?

 

[many37]

I think Mewtwo would be cannonically the most powerfull character ever in a Smash game.

And maybe Tabuu (although he is a boss), since he can turn any character into a trophy with his OHKO Off-Waves.

 

[kataridragon]

Why is Pokemon Trainer the only one limited by Brawl while the others get whatever from all their games?

Dude shut up. Honestly I explained it. Im not saying that pokemon trainer sucks or not to defend him. I'm saying that having pokemon trainer max out on pokemon makes everything difficult. It's easiest just to assume this particular trainer has three pokemon and not a whole army of poke balls coming out of his rump.

This also helps prevent Mewtwo vs Mewtwo scenarios and limits his pokemon count to a feasible number no greater than 6.

Either that or pkmn trainer has infinite arceus since he has access to an extra Mewtwo. I mean why stop there since trading could occur since he lives side by side alternate pokemon dimensions where pokemon can travel between. Yes this all makes sense in an unlimited pkmn trainer scenario.

Also we can just let him capture anything not human like. Bowser, fox, Falco, etc. They are all his new pokemon!!!

See how crazy this gets. These limitations are only for the sake of argument. If your pkmn trainer has diarrhea poke balls your argument to yourself is complete.

 

[IvanQuote]

So I'm going to cut myself off from Smashboards now that a copy of the Japanese game has been released, so I'll put up what I have determined so far during my studies:

>=>=>>>>>=dead last.

I said some of the rules I'm following in a previous post, but basically I'm making a chart where each officially character Death Battles another. So far, each fights 50 battles (mii and Doctor Mario omitted, ZSS & Samus are the same character, as are Zelda and Sheik, and there are 3 Links using only abilities from their games, OOT/MM/Hero Shade Link, TP Link, & WW/PH Link.) Pikachu is so far on top, having won 9 or 10/50 fights (wasn't sure how he would do against Pac-Man, thoughts?), while ROB has lost all of his, being in peripheral form and all.

 

[Greda]

Just because he killed some gods doesn't mean he can kill any. The gods he killed had clear weaknesses, like Palutena does. However, Shulk and Rosalina haven't shown such a thing when at that status.

As someone stated previously,

"An evil being whose strange power may even surpass that of the gods. It is mindless, only possessing the desire to cause disorder and disaster. Long sealed in the Lunar Sanctum, the Chaos Kin is suddenly free to spread anarchy."

If this is a case, this awakens Rosalina and Shulk to weaknesses.

The only reason Rosalina didn't show any "apparent weakness" is because she never fought against any other gods as Palutena did. Palutena had a much more involved part in her own respective game than Rosalina, she may have a ton of weaknesses we don't know 'cause all she did was kick back and relax while Mario is doing all the work.

We haven't even seen if she is capable of fighting, like I said, aside from 3D World, and I'm not using attributes from SSB4 here, because usually their moveset has nothing to do with what they can actually do. Even Mario, Peach, Toad, and Luigi matched up to Rosalina's power in that game, which is why I put her lower tier.

I have to give Shulk credit, though.

 

[Little_GotenSRK]

Ganon can only be hurt by the master sword. Additionally, he has massive power and can bring about the apocalypse. No matter how fast or powerful the others' attacks are, Ganon won't be affected.

Characters that can bend/manipulate time and space are always going to have an advantage over planet busters.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

That's grasping at straws to give your character the advantage. If we're following the canon in EVERY pokemon game, you can only carry 6 at a time, regardless of if you are actually in battle.

Okay, well then, the Trainer goes down because of six non-legendary Pokemon. I'd probably put him at the bottom of Very Powerful, he'll find the six strongest non-legendaries.

 

[ChikoLad]

As someone stated previously,

"An evil being whose strange power may even surpass that of the gods. It is mindless, only possessing the desire to cause disorder and disaster. Long sealed in the Lunar Sanctum, the Chaos Kin is suddenly free to spread anarchy."

If this is a case, this awakens Rosalina and Shulk to weaknesses.

The only reason Rosalina didn't show any "apparent weakness" is because she never fought against any other gods as Palutena did. Palutena had a much more involved part in her own respective game than Rosalina, she may have a ton of weaknesses we don't know 'cause all she did was kick back and relax while Mario is doing all the work.

We haven't even seen if she is capable of fighting, like I said, aside from 3D World, and I'm not using attributes from SSB4 here, because usually their moveset has nothing to do with what they can actually do. Even Mario, Peach, Toad, and Luigi matched up to Rosalina's power in that game, which is why I put her lower tier.

I have to give Shulk credit, though.

Not really. The Chaos Kin "may" surpass the power of the gods - of the Kid Icarus universe. That statement does not include Rosalina or Shulk (the former is never even strictly referred to as a god). As I've said before, "god" is a job description. Not all gods are especially powerful in games (e.g. Cosmos from Dissidia: Final Fantasy can hardly do anything). Palutena is just not all-powerful, hence, the Chaos Kin can take control of her.

She is perfectly capable of fighting, and I detailed a post that shows just some of her powers. Not even all of them, just some.

And Smash moves can count as long as they don't directly contradict what the character is portrayed like in their own games, and Rosalina's abilities in Smash don't contradict anything she does, especially since what she does in her own games is far more impressive. Yes, Ness can't use certain abilities from Smash in Earthbound, so those abilities would not be counted in this discussion, but even if Captain Falcon never really does the knee attack, is it really that difficult to believe he could? We don't need to explicitly see it, it's all about relating their Smash moves to canon, and if a contradiction arises, that move doesn't count. Simple logic. No contradictions arise with Rosalina (if anything she's holding back in Smash), so I count her Smash abilities. Without her Smash abilities, she's still top tier, but her Smash abilities show that she has more "tame" techniques for a straight up Brawl.

---------

Also I feel like this has to be SOME proof of just how...boundless Rosalina's powers are:

Spoiler

"It is said that the cosmos is beneath Rosalina's gown. This was actually featured briefly in her debut video."

The legend is true...Rosalina's gown confirmed to contain an entire cosmos!

 

[RGXZERO]

In my honest opinion, for Poke'mon Trainer, a.k.a "Red", We need to establish he should only have access to Poke'mon we "KNOW" he owns. I believe he is referred to the "Kanto Champion" but, I don't ever recall in-game that it's mentioned that he caught all 151 GEN 1 Poke'mon. We should go by strictly story canon, not player interaction (obviously the player in GEN I as Red can catch all 151 Poke'mon. In GEN III, (the GEN I remakes, 386 Poke'mon. *NOTE: FireRed/LeafGreen is the last instance of a player controlling Red within the mainstream games.)

This is the list of all known poke'mon he owns.This includes:

Main-Stream games (pkmn Red, Blue, Silver, Gold, etc.)- Pikachu, Espeon, Snorlax, Venasaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Lapras.
Poke'mon Stadium games (if it counts)- Meganium, Feraligatr, Typlosion, Jolteon, Scizcor, Tauros, Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Dragonite.
This means no Acreceus, Palkia, Dialga etc. for the sake of Red controlling time and space as he "does not own these Poke'mon".

If we consider the "Poke'mon Origins" special as canon, only then would he own almost all original (GEN I) 151 poke'mon (He is not seen catching Mew). We also have to factor in that Red "can only carry 6 of these Poke'mon at a time". He is unable to have access to all of them at once.

All this bickering over Red's lineup, why did I even bother listing his canonically owned Poke'mon if no one was even going to listen? Regardless of which route you decide to place Red with any of the circumstances I listed regarding which Poke'mon he owns, the undeniable fact is "Red has absolutely no access to any other Poke'mon who are not on this list."

Going by:

"Oh, his name is just Poke'mon Trainer so he should have access to all the Poke'mon".

No.

We are going by canon. His design is obviously Red. Therefore, we should stick to Red's "canon". For argument's sake, even if we went with the stupid route of allowing Red (as a player controlled character) to catch all the Poke'mon in the games he appears in, this would only give him access to 386 Poke'mon. (GEN III would be the limit)

-------------------------------------
As for Rosalina , let's see:

• She's practically immortal or just stopped aging.
• She can project forcefields.
• She is considered "All-Seeing" due to her Comet observatory, but without it, it can be assumed she wouldn't know what is going on.
• She can increase her size due to the end of Super Mario Galaxy.
• She can summon lumas, stars, & meteor showers but cannot generate nor create star power herself as she needs Mario to rescue them to power the Comet observatory.
• Her Smash 4 abilities.

(If there's any abilities I'm missing out on, please elaborate what they are and what game they appear in.)

To clear a misconception, "Rosalina cannot create blackholes or re-write reality by will":

At the end of Mario Galaxy, Bowser's reluctance caused a supernova to implode on itself to become a blackhole, The lumas all gather to help stop it but end up changing reality in the process thus retconning the game's events and restructuring the galaxy.

-------------------------------------
As for Lady Paluetena:

• Sort of all-seeing as she watches over the humans. Obviously in the events in Kid Icarus: Uprising, there's plenty of things she doesn't know.
• Immortal
• Can increase size
• Power of flight (can only last 5 minutes for Pit due to his wings burning up, it's assumed this doesn't hinder Paluetena as she's a Goddess.)

(Note: Some copy/paste from a wiki)

• Heavenly Light - Palutena holds her staff up and projects a rectangular field of supernal light above her and to the sides. It deals damage in a large area without producing knockback or flinching.
• Explosive Flame - Palutena creates an explosion at what appears to be a fixed distance in front of her.
• Warp - Palutena disappears and then reappears elsewhere, similar to Dimensional Cape.
• Rocket Jump - Palutena creates an explosion at her feet that boosts her upwards and damages nearby enemies.
• Reflect Barrier - Palutena casts a rectangular shield in front of her which knocks opponents away and reflects projectiles.
• Autoreticle - Palutena swings her staff and a reticle appears at where an enemy was when she swung her staff. Palutena then fires three very fast projectiles at where the reticle is, regardless of the enemy's position at that point. Its exact mechanics remain unclear.
• Jump Glide - Palutena jumps a fair distance up, and then is able to 'glide' similarly to Peach Parasol.
• Counter - Palutena performs a basic counterattack with her staff, similar to that of the Fire Emblem characters.
• Super Speed - Palutena performs a charging attack where she glides along the ground very quickly, and for a long distance. She can damage enemies by ramming her body into them.
• Angelic Missile - Palutena shoots herself forward to attack with her own body, similar to Skull Bash and Green Missile.
• Celestial Firework - Palutena shoots a seemingly weak explosive projectile upwards.
• Lightweight - By some method, Palutena increases her speed to a degree that she can outrun even Sonic. In exchange, she becomes more susceptible to damage and knockback.
• Black Hole and Mega Laser - Palutena combines these two powers to form her final smash. She starts by sucking foes towards the center of the stage with Black Hole, putting them in a tumbling state, and then fires the Mega Laser into the Black Hole to deal damage, concluding with a final hit to knock the victims away as Black Hole dissipates.

-------------------------------------

At this point, I'm sorry, but "Rosalina absolutely does not stand a chance in hell against Paluetena". Palutena was top tier on my list for a reason. Almost every character in the Smash Bros. series can not hold a candle against her. The only characters who can possibly hurt Paluetena need to have "powers that may surpass even the Gods."

The only character who comes to mind is Sonic (as Super Sonic). He was able to physically harm the Sun God, Solaris.
(Note: Sonic was unable to defeat Solaris on his own due to the sole fact that Solaris existed in different periods of time at the same time, it would have not been possible without help from Super Shadow and Super Silver.) As well, every God, Demi-god, Magical Being or Metal Overlord he fought has always been quite much larger than himself. The only possible advantage Sonic has towards Paluentena is his speed (with Chaos Control) and he has to finish her off before he reverts back from his super form.

I don't know enough about Xenoblade to know if Shulk could possibly be strong enough to harm Paluetena. All I'm aware is the final antagonist was a "scientist turned Demi-God", but he wasn't an actual God.

As well, Ganondorf ,can't do crap against her.

I'm sorry Sonicbrawler182, but Rosalina is no where near the same league as Lady Paluetena.

 

[ChikoLad]

"Rosalina cannot create blackholes or re-write reality by will":

Statements are not enough. I already provided my evidence that she can. You provide evidence she can't.

And even without FORMING Black Holes, she can survive a black hole just fine (much more destructive ones than Palutena's), and control what happens in whatever new universe is necessary.

Plus, you neglected a bunch of Rosalina's powers. I myself have not even listed all of them.

 

[RGXZERO]

Statements are not enough. I already provided my evidence that she can.

You're going to have to post it again. I have no clue what page it was when you "provided evidence".

(If there's any abilities I'm missing out on, please elaborate what they are and what game they appear in.)

I wrote this for a reason^

You provide evidence she can't.

It's not my job to prove to you that she can't, it's your job to prove to me that she can. Show me an instance where she HAS created a blackhole & show me me an instance where she HAS recreated the universe by will. I already established and explained that she didn't create the one at the end of Mario Galaxy and she wasn't responsible for re-creating the universe. That was the lumas' doing.

If you're going to pit characters against each-other, you need to provide the feats as counter-argument. I admit I don't know everything about Rosalina, it's you that needs to correct me when I'm wrong.

Right now, Paluentena has the stronger feats.