Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

12cheeper

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Even then IIRC that only applies to the hero of time.
Though even ignoring that he can't just snap his fingers and go through time at his leasure like he's Thanos.
Instead,he has to take several seconds playing on the ocarina to even do it during which time any character who's even a threat to him would have more than enough time to disarm him or just straight up kill him.
 

Dead Sans

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I want to say ganondorf because he’s the reincarnate of the literal embodiment of evil, a powerful warrior, and smart, able to sometimes use link and Zelda to get what he wants. Also in twilight princess, he not only survived BEING STABBED IN THE CHEST WITH A SWORD, but also killed the men that were to execute him, which were spirits.
 

DjinnandTonic

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Meh, this is just growing tiresome
You're not exactly making it easy to remain polite. Nor is it easy to see through the dismissive attitude to try to remain open to the idea of listening to arguments and talking to you in good faith. But I will give it a try.

Supernova is actually legit.
Its corroborated by summons with cosmic tier feats who are inferior to even CC era Sephy, he brings it with him into every crossover,characters in the compilation straight up mention it,and even aside from game mechanics there actually is in-universe explanations making spamming it perfectly plausible.Namely, that it functions similarly to summons.(Notice how at the beginning of the animation the screen shatters almost as if the party is being pulled into a pocket dimension.
So yeah, not the best argument for FE downplay.
Okay, so I can see where your perspective comes from WRT FE animations now. Also, I really would like some kind of citation on that pocket dimension in-universe explanation because that's certainly not in the game.

But hey,if you can find me an interview where IS straight up says that battle animations don't count I'd be happy to concede.Because these sorts of discussions kind of necessitate death of the author and even if they didn't you have no qualifications to be putting words in the creators mouths.
Again, you're literally just arguing from personal disbelief.


Seriously dude,Oocams razor.
I'm not the one making a million different assumptions that aren't even remotely implied.
Is it Occam's Razor just to assume that all humans in the FE setting have some kind of superhuman durability? Yes, there's an element of personal disbelief, but it's based on how the characters and settings portray FE humans as, y'know... human. Except in the really cool action scenes that aren't really referenced by dialog... It makes me suspicious of taking that part at face value while disregarding the basic narrative premise of 'these people are human'. It's not even a farfetched idea, even the wiki/community seems to accept that characters are functionally the same as humans. https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Human


Appealing to an authors possible ignorance isnt really a valid argument.It doesn't invalidate the feats themselves.Hell,most shounen manga writers don't think the implications of their higher end feats through either.Are those feats no longer valid either?
This sounds like the crux of our disagreement. You seem to think that any wild impossible feat in fiction should just be accepted as it is visualized, and then extrapolate the impossible energy output from there. To me, it seems that if you intend to apply real-life physics to fictional feats, you should assume that the objects function as closely to their real-life counterparts as possible. Thus, it's more likely that Chrom is a human who is lucky/intuitive enough to know when to dodge than it is that he's superhumanly fast enough to move faster than lightning.


Also, in-game scale is irrelevant when we have illustrations from treasure until the inevitable Jugdral remakes.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...Barhara.png/revision/latest?cb=20090708023811
Well, why didn't you start with that image? That makes things much clearer. I guess they are simply very small, inaccurate meteorites. If the spell does just pull rocks from space, all we really have to assume is that the Crusaders that survived just didn't get hit directly/weren't in the immediate blast radius... Not some kind of proof of being superhuman.

Irrelevant.Even if you downplayed the effects and treated the ending winter as just a second ice age, even then if you divided the energy of the legendary weapons and maybe a couple thousand dragons
equally youd still get a value within the gigaton range.
Stars shining in Day would be getting into stellar luminosity and whoo boy,at that point you approach starting to have to use Foe(the typical energy output of a supernova) instead of tons of tnt.
Wow, that's definitely interpreting things on the high end... I wouldn't have treated it as such an extinction level event as an ice age... The events listed: 'Natural catastrophes became common. Snow fell in the middle of summer. The stars shone even during the day.' could easily all be localized phenomena, not global. It doesn't take an ice-age-level-event to upset local weather/seismic patterns. Making stars visible during the day could be the result of magical sunlight refraction or just... magic twinkles in the sky instead of actually increasing the energy output of a star. Certainly a powerful event, but I wouldn't have valued it in the gigaton range (well, not for a single weapon, at the least).
 
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Ummm... Where is there any indication that the power of the star children is something that needs to be activated? Isn't it more likely that they're just these exceptionally powerful beings?
Lol you missed the point.

Either way, I don't care anymore. Get ready to see Death Battle retry Mario vs Sonic in a rematch for their 100th episode.

Let's see if they can "settle the debate once and for all"
 

12cheeper

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You're not exactly making it easy to remain polite. Nor is it easy to see through the dismissive attitude to try to remain open to the idea of listening to arguments and talking to you in good faith. But I will give it a try.
Eh?I don't think I've been being that hostile to you.I mean,I haven't been ultra polite or anything but it's kinda hard to be TOO polite when this thread is a yknow,argument thread.
Okay, so I can see where your perspective comes from WRT FE animations now. Also, I really would like some kind of citation on that pocket dimension in-universe explanation because that's certainly not in the game.
Kind of off topic but I'll be glad to indulde you

Technically you're wrong about it not being explained in-game.You just probably played the wrong game.
Specifically it's in crisis core.
The Ifrit fight in particular is a pretty good showcase actually.
The fight begins with Zack running through a forest then the materia is used,the screen flashes and Zack is now in a fiery mountainous landscape.
IIRC there's also a statement in the FF7 ultimania that confirms it but I can't be bothered to comb the whole thing RN.
I did find this in Sephy's section however:
https://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/523/sephiroth-character-profile-p76-81/
Well will you look at that,it's referred to as summoning.

Is it Occam's Razor just to assume that all humans in the FE setting have some kind of superhuman durability? Yes, there's an element of personal disbelief, but it's based on how the characters and settings portray FE humans as, y'know... human. Except in the really cool action scenes that aren't really referenced by dialog... It makes me suspicious of taking that part at face value while disregarding the basic narrative premise of 'these people are human'. It's not even a farfetched idea, even the wiki/community seems to accept that characters are functionally the same as humans. https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Human
You....could honestly apply this same logic to most conventional JRPG characters and characters from action oriented anime series tbh.
In both instances characters are,for the most part treated as regular humans.They don't eat much more than irl humans(and if they do it's as a gag pertaining to only 1 character),They don't sleep any more or less than real people,they can still suffer from common illnesses and other bodily issues just like real people etc.

But if it makes you feel better the humans in the series are a bit......odd to say the least and I'm not just talking about stats or hair color.
For one,souls exist seemingly across the entire multiverse and yet having them removed doesn't really do what you'd think it'd do.
In fact,it is perfectly possible to live your entire life without a soul.Sure,you might have miscellaneous psychological issues but for the most part they can still live content healthy lives with no other issues rather than killing them like you'd think.
Secondly,In several series we see characters both dragon and human who seemingly have a sixth sense that allows them to sense the presence of others even in the absence of other stimuli.
So they're clearly not 1:1 with actual humans no matter how you slice it.

This sounds like the crux of our disagreement. You seem to think that any wild impossible feat in fiction should just be accepted as it is visualized, and then extrapolate the impossible energy output from there. To me, it seems that if you intend to apply real-life physics to fictional feats, you should assume that the objects function as closely to their real-life counterparts as possible. Thus, it's more likely that Chrom is a human who is lucky/intuitive enough to know when to dodge than it is that he's superhumanly fast enough to move faster than lightning.
Why shouldn't we accept things as visualized?Going by this logic how is any superhuman feat impressive?How do you prove they all aren't exaggerations?Conversely,if you assume that physics are completely different how are superhuman feats impressive at all?Maybe Kirby's planet split is something that even an ordinary person could do in that universe.
Chrom knowing the exact moment when to dodge wouldn't so much be "intuition" so much as it'd be straight up precognition.As for luck,knowing exactly when and where a lightning bolt would strike is so astronomically unlikely you'd probably have a better chance of winning the lottery.10 times.In a row.
Also,depending on distance at the start of the dodge and how far he moved his body in the timeframe he would not necessarily have to be faster than the lightning either.

Wow, that's definitely interpreting things on the high end... I wouldn't have treated it as such an extinction level event as an ice age... The events listed: 'Natural catastrophes became common. Snow fell in the middle of summer. The stars shone even during the day.' could easily all be localized phenomena, not global. It doesn't take an ice-age-level-event to upset local weather/seismic patterns. Making stars visible during the day could be the result of magical sunlight refraction or just... magic twinkles in the sky instead of actually increasing the energy output of a star. Certainly a powerful event, but I wouldn't have valued it in the gigaton range (well, not for a single weapon, at the least).
I can respect not accepting the absolute high end mostly because it's insanely high for the verse but even assuming that only Elibe was affected and to be conservative that Elibe is about the size of Australia(the smallest continent on earth) in order to do the snowing during the summer thing at the very least the average temperature on the continent would have had to have been lowered to below the freezing point of water which would still produce an absolutely enormous amount of energy.
 
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monzer

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Either way, I don't care anymore. Get ready to see Death Battle retry Mario vs Sonic in a rematch for their 100th episode.

Let's see if they can "settle the debate once and for all"
>Death Battle
>Ending a debate

Death Battle always starts debates. Their research is always poor, and others have to step in to fix their errors. All death battle does is make people who actually know what they're talking about to start discussing the matchup.

They don't use the same logic we do when dealing with this kind of thing. Death Battle is ultimately not concerned with accuracy. Their goal is to be an entertaining YouTube show, and while that's a perfectly fine objective it means that they aren't looking at things with the same lens as people who post in threads like these. They don't care about feats unless they can be explained in under a few seconds. They're perfectly fine with invoking a no limits fallacy if it makes for an interesting match. Their defining feat for a character is usually the most cinematic/impressive, and not the one that's actually their strongest feat. Overall Death Battle strives to make an interesting show rather than to give an educated verdict.

They won't bring up anything about Mario or Sonic we don't already know. I would pleasantly surprised if they actually put in the time to survey Mario's feats across his several games, but I doubt that they will. Same goes for Sonic and his planet busting opponents that Death battle ignored last time.

I want to say ganondorf because he’s the reincarnate of the literal embodiment of evil, a powerful warrior, and smart, able to sometimes use link and Zelda to get what he wants. Also in twilight princess, he not only survived BEING STABBED IN THE CHEST WITH A SWORD, but also killed the men that were to execute him, which were spirits.
Compared to other characters on here that's really not very impressive.
 
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DjinnandTonic

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Eh?I don't think I've been being that hostile to you.I mean,I haven't been ultra polite or anything but it's kinda hard to be TOO polite when this thread is a yknow,argument thread.
Well, I mean, the very first response to me you had was to assume that I had not actually played the games and thus dismissing any of my interpretations. Then subsequently accused me of favoritism for Corrin.

I mean, I *get* it. We're debating on the internet, so the common conception is that everyone is screaming at eachother and no one is really willing to listen. I don't blame you for being kinda dismissive if you have these kinds of internet arguments often, but... I think you'll find this thread a lot more fun if you look at it as all of us actually being receptive to *comparing* perspectives instead of *compelling* everyone to listen to our One True Correct Interpretation. (Because honestly, we're applying real-world logic to fictional worlds so that's just never going to reach a definitive conclusion.)

Kind of off topic but I'll be glad to indulde you

Technically you're wrong about it not being explained in-game.You just probably played the wrong game.
Specifically it's in crisis core.
The Ifrit fight in particular is a pretty good showcase actually.
The fight begins with Zack running through a forest then the materia is used,the screen flashes and Zack is now in a fiery mountainous landscape.
IIRC there's also a statement in the FF7 ultimania that confirms it but I can't be bothered to comb the whole thing RN.
I did find this in Sephy's section however:
https://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/523/sephiroth-character-profile-p76-81/
Well will you look at that,it's referred to as summoning.
Reading the link, I don't see anything that directly says that Sephiroth's Supernova is a spell that transfers everyone to a pocket dimension, but the Ifrit scene in CC is certainly an interesting way of interpreting how certain spells work! I'm not fully convinced that Summon mechanics apply to Supernova (given it's referred to as Sephiroth's Limit Break in CC, not a summon), and also that I'm pretty sure the phrase in the link you provided is 'yobareta' (called forth) and not 'shoukan' (the word used to refer to summoning Espers/Aeons/etc in the FF games), so that's not a good indication of Supernova's mechanics.

Still, I do kinda like the idea and that there's some in-game evidence that could corraborate the theory.


You....could honestly apply this same logic to most conventional JRPG characters and characters from action oriented anime series tbh.
Could. And do. It's a fundamental difference in how we view fiction, I suppose.

Why shouldn't we accept things as visualized?Going by this logic how is any superhuman feat impressive?How do you prove they all aren't exaggerations?
Because the narrative supercedes visuals to me? Also, looking at Western comics, for example, these things don't have to be at odds. If a narrative wanted characters to be doing superhuman things, all it has to do is state at some point that characters are doing superhuman things. Spiderman does a bunch of acrobatics and durability feats that are superhuman, and people react to it as if it is superhuman. Simple. Conversely, if it's universe where everyone is super-powered like Kirby, maybe don't treat your characters as human and have other 'normal' humans running around?


I can respect not accepting the absolute high end mostly because it's insanely high for the verse but even assuming that only Elibe was affected and to be conservative that Elibe is about the size of Australia(the smallest continent on earth) in order to do the snowing during the summer thing at the very least the average temperature on the continent would have had to have been lowered to below the freezing point of water which would still produce an absolutely enormous amount of energy.
Well, by 'localized', I was thinking the affected weather wouldn't have to be covering the entire continent to still have reports of 'snow falling in the summer', etc.
 

12cheeper

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Reading the link, I don't see anything that directly says that Sephiroth's Supernova is a spell that transfers everyone to a pocket dimension, but the Ifrit scene in CC is certainly an interesting way of interpreting how certain spells work! I'm not fully convinced that Summon mechanics apply to Supernova (given it's referred to as Sephiroth's Limit Break in CC, not a summon), and also that I'm pretty sure the phrase in the link you provided is 'yobareta' (called forth) and not 'shoukan' (the word used to refer to summoning Espers/Aeons/etc in the FF games), so that's not a good indication of Supernova's mechanics.

Still, I do kinda like the idea and that there's some in-game evidence that could corraborate the theory.
Meh,I don't see why it isn't reasonable to believe that limit breaks can't function like summons but I can't be bothered to look for raws rn.Either way it seems a bit strange to use the word summon when summon is actual series terminology if it uses a different word.
Could. And do. It's a fundamental difference in how we view fiction, I suppose.
Mostly memeing but seriously,this argument is insane.By this logic Base Naruto Luffy,and even super saiyan Goku until his fight with Cell are all peak humans because they aren't verbally fellated by the rest of the cast.(nevermind that most writers ignore superhuman abilities when it's inconvenient anyway)

As for JRPG characters you say that they're just regular joes and yet most of them are by their games end are able to brute force their way through fights against godlike entities.
To use a rather extreme example lets look at SMT specifically the mainline series.
With the exception of Nocturne every protagonist is,taxonomically speaking at least,human.There's a bit of a catch though.No actual human being could possibly survive to the end of any of these games.Here's a basic idea of the scope of these games.Early game you've got demons like Jack Frost who's able to instantly flash freeze humans,a little further up you've got entities like King Frost who can freeze the entire world and at the high tiers you've got entities like YHVH and Kagatsuchi who can create and destroy countless universes simultaneously.Dodging isn't an option either as beings like YHVH and Kagatsuchi exist beyond the bounds of time and space making them exist everywhere and nowhere at the same time making the concept of speed irrelevant.Realistically the only way to keep up is by also being omnipresent or by being so immeasurably fast that your speed is essentially infinite.
And before you ask,no,they don't have any hard counters either.
Do these sound like beings a regular dude could take on?It'd be like pitting a 4 year old with a pocket knife against Thanos.
The "he's just a human" is the biggest meme there is when it comes to talking about fictional characters.


Your argument isn't even internally consistent either.
It's suggested in birthright that Corrin needed a boost to stand a chance against Xander dragon form be damned and even with that boost Corrin only won because Xander sandbagged.Going by this misguided idea that everyone in the game is just a regular person wouldn't that make Dragon Corrin street level at the very best?
Your entire argument pretty much boils down to this:
Me:*brings up multiple mildly superhuman feats feats including things brought up in character dialogue and statements from credible sources*
You:

At the end of the day comic books,TV shows,movies,anime,manga,and yes even video games are all examples of visual storytelling and as such dialogue is one of the least important aspects of storytelling.Generally body language,intonation,a characters actions,and in the case of video games even game mechanics on a very case by case basis are more important than dialogue by itself.If dialogue did Trump everything else Sonichu would be the standard that all comics would be held to.Most writers aren't going to reference every tiny little detail because they generally figure you have functioning eyes.Use them.If you want that then just stick to Novels,plays,and light novels.

Because the narrative supercedes visuals to me? Also, looking at Western comics, for example, these things don't have to be at odds. If a narrative wanted characters to be doing superhuman things, all it has to do is state at some point that characters are doing superhuman things. Spiderman does a bunch of acrobatics and durability feats that are superhuman, and people react to it as if it is superhuman. Simple. Conversely, if it's universe where everyone is super-powered like Kirby, maybe don't treat your characters as human and have other 'normal' humans running around?
Funny you should mention comic books since I'll let you in on a little fun fact:Even if you completely ignore all feats "peak human"=superhuman in a roundabout way.
Let's take Captain America for instance:
here's your typical Cap Bio
Captain America has athletic ability,strength,speed,and endurance superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed.
This is quite literally impossible and if it was it wouldn't be paired with Caps bodybuilder physique.(Though I guess You could conceivably have a pretty good mix of strength and speed but eventually muscle mass and the square-cube law are gonna screw you over and you'll have to make a trade off between speed and power.Fictional humans aren't and in fact almost never are necessarily=irl humans.

I wouldn't have mentioned Superman personally since he kind of completely destroys your argument by himself because newsflash:Superhuman is an insanely broad category.All it really means is you're stronger than the average joe.
When people mention Supermans speed it's usually just "faster than a speeding bullet".You know who's also described in a similarly way?Spider-man.Are you really prepared to argue that Spider-man is just as fast as Supes,to hell with Kryptonians traveling interplanetary,interstellar,and even intergalactic distances within short timeframes.
I don't actually expect you to address this btw because it's not very convenient for your argument.

Also LMAO at FE humans being equivalent to irl humans.SoV literally starts with a bunch of poorly equipped grade schoolers taking on a bunch of fully armored knights.(Also Obligatory "those with royal blood can take out armies of common troops" screenshot here)

Well, by 'localized', I was thinking the affected weather wouldn't have to be covering the entire continent to still have reports of 'snow falling in the summer', etc.
Don't you think it'd be a tad strange that the dragons vacated the entire continent if the AOE of the ending winter was just some small area especially considering how far away the dragon's gate is from ground zero?Furthermore,it's equally strange that they even bothered naming it if it was so localized much less something as ominous sounding as "the ending winter".Those kind of names are more suitable for extinction level events than just some strange weather patterns.(Which tbh it actually was in the case of Elibe's dragons)
 

12cheeper

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Well, what's your opinion on Mario vs Sonic, since it's gonna be getting a rematch
Marios fast enough to keep up(and hilariously enough probably blitzes with high ends),is strong enough to kill sonic before the super form even comes into play,and even if the super form DOES come into play higher end cosmic artifacts are equal to if not superior to Super Sonic.
 

monzer

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Well, what's your opinion on Mario vs Sonic, since it's gonna be getting a rematch
Base Mario at his most common showing would lose handily to Base Sonic.

High end Mario (Power Stars, Dream Team, Mario Party) stomps base and Super/Hyper Sonic as Cheeper said.
 
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12cheeper

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Base Mario at his most common showing would lose handily to Base Sonic.

High end Mario (Power Stars, Dream Team, Mario Party) stomps base and Super/Hyper Sonic as Cheeper said.
Hyper is literally featless anyway aside from scaling to Super in an era before Super had anything good.Since it's pretty clear that Sonic got better at drawing out the emeralds power over time unless you also want to argue Base Sonic=super Sonic.
As for bases,nah,Mario typically has better showings tbh.Average Sonic game typically showcases building-city block feats aside from endgame stuff unless you really try to reach.Speedwise base Sanics absolute best feat with nothing else even coming close is like,quad mach wisp feat from colors I think?Super has a relativistic feat in advance though IIRC.
 

DjinnandTonic

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Mostly memeing but seriously,this argument is insane.
Wow. You are seriously arguing in bad faith here. You managed to call me a ****** and insane in the same breath. ...for not agreeing with you about how to view fictional universes? Oh, but it's okay, you're 'mostly' memeing.

By this logic Base Naruto Luffy,and even super saiyan Goku until his fight with Cell are all peak humans because they aren't verbally fellated by the rest of the cast.(nevermind that most writers ignore superhuman abilities when it's inconvenient anyway)
Absolutely no contradiction in these examples. Other characters very clearly state that all of the ninjas in Naruto are more powerful than characters without ninja training/chakra control. So I wouldn't have a problem with viewing Naruto's feats as at least mildly superhuman. Luffy and Goku are consistantly treated as having done amazing feats in-universe all the time too. To an even more absurd degree. Neither of them are even somewhat human? Goku is an alien and Luffy is some kind of magic cursed rubberman.

As for JRPG characters you say that they're just regular joes and yet most of them are by their games end are able to brute force their way through fights against godlike entities.
To use a rather extreme example lets look at SMT specifically the mainline series.
With the exception of Nocturne every protagonist is,taxonomically speaking at least,human.There's a bit of a catch though.No actual human being could possibly survive to the end of any of these games.Here's a basic idea of the scope of these games.Early game you've got demons like Jack Frost who's able to instantly flash freeze humans,a little further up you've got entities like King Frost who can freeze the entire world and at the high tiers you've got entities like YHVH and Kagatsuchi who can create and destroy countless universes simultaneously.Dodging isn't an option either as beings like YHVH and Kagatsuchi exist beyond the bounds of time and space making them exist everywhere and nowhere at the same time making the concept of speed irrelevant.Realistically the only way to keep up is by also being omnipresent or by being so immeasurably fast that your speed is essentially infinite.
And before you ask,no,they don't have any hard counters either.
Do these sound like beings a regular dude could take on?It'd be like pitting a 4 year old with a pocket knife against Thanos.
The "he's just a human" is the biggest meme there is when it comes to talking about fictional characters.
The SMT characters are usually human, but they're also all demon summoners at the very least, who are using magic to help them out and heal them. Presumably YHVH and Kagatsuchi are being defeated on some kind of conceptual level, but the mechanics of godhood in the SMT multiverse is pretty nebulous. Presumably by SMT's physics, humans have some method of transcending their humanity, which is why a lot of the backstories of the demons feature characters that *used* to be human and have since become classified as some kind of demon, spirit, or deity.

Again, I am not applying this label of 'peak human' frivolously. If FE characters treated someone as more than human within the context of the story, I would accept that.

Your argument isn't even internally consistent either.
It's suggested in birthright that Corrin needed a boost to stand a chance against Xander dragon form be damned and even with that boost Corrin only won because Xander sandbagged.Going by this misguided idea that everyone in the game is just a regular person wouldn't that make Dragon Corrin street level at the very best?
Xander, who also has dragon blood, and who is wielding a magical superweapon?

Your entire argument pretty much boils down to this:
Me:*brings up multiple mildly superhuman feats feats including things brought up in character dialogue and statements from credible sources*
You:
Okay, so I get you're just trying to make me look ridiculous, but that's seriously rude and reductive.

At the end of the day comic books,TV shows,movies,anime,manga,and yes even video games are all examples of visual storytelling and as such dialogue is one of the least important aspects of storytelling.Generally body language,intonation,a characters actions,and in the case of video games even game mechanics on a very case by case basis are more important than dialogue by itself.If dialogue did Trump everything else Sonichu would be the standard that all comics would be held to.Most writers aren't going to reference every tiny little detail because they generally figure you have functioning eyes.Use them.If you want that then just stick to Novels,plays,and light novels.
Visual narratives, especially video games, have a pretty long history of using over-the-top visuals and abstractions to make a scene more visually active/artistic. There is explicit history of visual narratives expecting the viewer not to take everything shown at face value.

Funny you should mention comic books since I'll let you in on a little fun fact:Even if you completely ignore all feats "peak human"=superhuman in a roundabout way.
Let's take Captain America for instance:
here's your typical Cap Bio

This is quite literally impossible and if it was it wouldn't be paired with Caps bodybuilder physique.(Though I guess You could conceivably have a pretty good mix of strength and speed but eventually muscle mass and the square-cube law are gonna screw you over and you'll have to make a trade off between speed and power.Fictional humans aren't and in fact almost never are necessarily=irl humans.
I'm not even arguing this. Obviously if an author defines 'peak human' as 'better than any actual human has ever been', then that's a mild form of being superhuman. I wouldn't define 'peak human' that way, since that can't exist. Though, honestly, I'm willing to believe that all FE humans are closer to Captain America-level toughness/speed/etc. than Olympic-level toughness/speed/etc. It's a mild distinction, that would technically make FE humans into mildly superhuman level, if that would make you happy? (I don't think it changes much for the sake of this discussion since most Smash characters likely fall into the same distinction...)

I wouldn't have mentioned Superman personally since he kind of completely destroys your argument by himself because newsflash:Superhuman is an insanely broad category.All it really means is you're stronger than the average joe.
When people mention Supermans speed it's usually just "faster than a speeding bullet".You know who's also described in a similarly way?Spider-man.Are you really prepared to argue that Spider-man is just as fast as Supes,to hell with Kryptonians traveling interplanetary,interstellar,and even intergalactic distances within short timeframes.
I didn't mention Superman, why are you bringing him up? I didn't say Spider-man = Superman. Obviously that's not true. In case it's not clear, I will state it: Yes, I know that superhuman is a broad category. Yes I know Spider-man is superhuman. Yes I know Superman is superhuman. Yes I know that Superman is magnitudes more powerful than Spider-man. All of the fiction about them reinforces this in both visuals and narrative. I would have no reason to debate that. We are in agreement, it seems?

I don't actually expect you to address this btw because it's not very convenient for your argument.
Oh my God, I'm going to start a Snide Remarks counter for you. You act like I'm just ignoring what you're saying. I'm starting to think that YOU are being a troll and it's really unfortunate since I was enjoying this thread and I was starting to think that maybe you and I were coming to an understanding, but you just can't help yourself, can you?

Also LMAO at FE humans being equivalent to irl humans.SoV literally starts with a bunch of poorly equipped grade schoolers taking on a bunch of fully armored knights.(Also Obligatory "those with royal blood can take out armies of common troops" screenshot here)
Are you talking about the prologue? Where the children are running and hiding while the famous General Mycen does all the fighting? I don't think that's much proof for FE humans being super powerful?

Don't you think it'd be a tad strange that the dragons vacated the entire continent if the AOE of the ending winter was just some small area especially considering how far away the dragon's gate is from ground zero?Furthermore,it's equally strange that they even bothered naming it if it was so localized much less something as ominous sounding as "the ending winter".Those kind of names are more suitable for extinction level events than just some strange weather patterns.(Which tbh it actually was in the case of Elibe's dragons)
The war leading up to the Ending Winter itself seems like a good enough reason for the Dragons to leave Elibe. I concede that the possibility exists for the Ending Winter to be a continent-wide event, but it's certainly not the only possibility from the vague language used, and not the way I would have interpreted it while playing the game. But yeah, if you wanna interpret it that way, power to you! That is a decent argument for Roy hype!
 

monzer

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You managed to call me a ****** and insane in the same breath. ...for not agreeing with you about how to view fictional universes?
Not necessarily defending the ad hominem, but banter and memey comments are usually part of the culture with things like this. It originated on /a/ and it's a goofy topic so there aren't the same standards for politeness as there are for other things.

most Smash characters likely fall into the same distinction
The average Smash character is like building level or something, definitely a lot higher than mildly superhuman.
 

DjinnandTonic

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Not necessarily defending the ad hominem, but banter and memey comments are usually part of the culture with things like this. It originated on /a/ and it's a goofy topic so there aren't the same standards for politeness as there are for other things.
Wow... do we really wanna be anything like /a/ ? I feel like that's reason enough NOT to treat eachother like that?

The average Smash character is like building level or something, definitely a lot higher than mildly superhuman.
Sure, I agree. I was saying that most Smash characters are mildly superhuman at *least*, in comparison to FE humans, which are closer to real humans than most.
 
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Marios fast enough to keep up(and hilariously enough probably blitzes with high ends),is strong enough to kill sonic before the super form even comes into play,and even if the super form DOES come into play higher end cosmic artifacts are equal to if not superior to Super Sonic.

Ahh. That's super nice.

What stats would a mid-end Mario have? I'm really curious, cause I usually see the high-ends or the low-ends referenced
 

12cheeper

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Wow. You are seriously arguing in bad faith here. You managed to call me a ****** and insane in the same breath. ...for not agreeing with you about how to view fictional universes? Oh, but it's okay, you're 'mostly' memeing.
One,I didn't call you insane I called your argument insane which it is.Generally I don't call people crazy unless they do s*** like sending death or **** threats.You can make dumb arguments without being an actual lunatic.
Second,how thin must your skin be to get this offended over some light hearted ribbing as a means of saying "bro,this argument is dumb as hell"?Like,I genuinely can't imagine how someone like this would react to actual fan communities or even real life social settings for that matter.(I have legit never been friends with a guy who didn't do any ribbing and even family members have said worse tbh)
Like,damn,if I knew you were this emotionally fragile I probably would've used something else.

Absolutely no contradiction in these examples. Other characters very clearly state that all of the ninjas in Naruto are more powerful than characters without ninja training/chakra control. So I wouldn't have a problem with viewing Naruto's feats as at least mildly superhuman. Luffy and Goku are consistantly treated as having done amazing feats in-universe all the time too. To an even more absurd degree. Neither of them are even somewhat human? Goku is an alien and Luffy is some kind of magic cursed rubberman.
lolnope.Peak human is perfectly in line with your inane logic.Ninja training makes you stronger than the average joe in the same sense that irl military training makes you a better fighter than most civilians just with some exotic powers and even those don't explain durability sans sage mode(wait,nvm forgot that feats don't actually count unless someone repeats what just happened on panel.)
Goku is treated as an exceptionally skilled martial artist but the term superhuman is never actually used.Being an alien doesn't mean jack tbh.And no,gravity training doesn't mean anything either.It indicates adaptability more than anything(The technology actually exists in real life albeit applied a bit differently.The added force on your bones and muscles is the least of your problems.Gravity affects everything meaning that at higher levels your blood would be pulled into your legs,your heart would stop,since your RBCs can no longer deliver oxygen your cells would start dying of starvation en masse,you'd lose consciousness within minutes and death would follow shortly thereafter.It's really something that's better to nod your head and roll with.)though even if you treated it like wearing a weighted vest it'd be slightly superhuman at best(yeah,sure.Try going on Kaizenshuu and saying Goku is slightly superhuman and see how that'd go) but probably not given what you apparently think the human body is capable of.
Devil fruits only provide generic x-men powers and there is no statements of amplified statistics.(Hell,Zoro/Zolo is just a really good swordsman)

The SMT characters are usually human, but they're also all demon summoners at the very least, who are using magic to help them out and heal them. Presumably YHVH and Kagatsuchi are being defeated on some kind of conceptual level, but the mechanics of godhood in the SMT multiverse is pretty nebulous. Presumably by SMT's physics, humans have some method of transcending their humanity, which is why a lot of the backstories of the demons feature characters that *used* to be human and have since become classified as some kind of demon, spirit, or deity.

Again, I am not applying this label of 'peak human' frivolously. If FE characters treated someone as more than human within the context of the story, I would accept that.
Demon summoning is typically done with a literal computer program and while it's been awhile I'm pretty sure that both the SMT1 protagonist and Aleph don't use magic presumably to add incentive to demon negotiating.
Also,I thought you were all about explicit story details?This "humans can transcend their humanity" nonsense isn't even remotely implied beyond your personal headcanon and I assume you're only pushing it because you've been backed into a metaphorical corner.
Yes,humans can become demons(The demi fiend is living proof of this) but this is ultimately irrelevant because most protags never become demons anyway.
Elevating to a level of power that'd make high end comic book characters blush is kinda just something the protags can do.

Xander, who also has dragon blood, and who is wielding a magical superweapon?
Ummm....aren't you the one who's been arguing that literally every human character is regular irl human level whether or not they have holy blood or it's local equivalent?(Yknow,like Chrom and Alm?)Hell,even further back you were comparing Draggo Corrin to Anankos.Why the sudden change of heart?Just curious.

Okay, so I get you're just trying to make me look ridiculous, but that's seriously rude and reductive.
I'm not the one making you look ridiculous,boyo.Do you see anyone else in this thread saying things like "visible feats don't count only character dialogue does"?
Nah,but seriously I don't really see how this is all that reductive.In so many words this basically is what our argument boils down to.Me bringing up blatantly superhuman stuff and you saying it isn't because they aren't a dragon and/or you vastly overestimating what actual humans are capable of.

Visual narratives, especially video games, have a pretty long history of using over-the-top visuals and abstractions to make a scene more visually active/artistic. There is explicit history of visual narratives expecting the viewer not to take everything shown at face value.
Citation needed.I have literally never heard of this.It's never brought up in any creative writing class,never mentioned by filmmakers,and the closest I've seen to it is animated characters needing slight exaggeration in their animations because they look bad without it.Mind pointing me to the literature that documents this supposed history?

I'm not even arguing this. Obviously if an author defines 'peak human' as 'better than any actual human has ever been', then that's a mild form of being superhuman. I wouldn't define 'peak human' that way, since that can't exist. Though, honestly, I'm willing to believe that all FE humans are closer to Captain America-level toughness/speed/etc. than Olympic-level toughness/speed/etc. It's a mild distinction, that would technically make FE humans into mildly superhuman level, if that would make you happy? (I don't think it changes much for the sake of this discussion since most Smash characters likely fall into the same distinction...)
Except the term peak human is never really used outside of Marvel and DC and both companies define the term more or less identically.
Even if it was how WOULD you define it then?Strongest person who ever lived?That might make you peak human in strength,sure but not really peak human in general.Can run at the theoretical top human speed?That's kinda the same deal with speed.What about having a nice mix of speed and power that lets you excel in your niche?Certainly realistic with the proper diet assuming you're physically active but it's not exactly peak in anything,is it?
Ultimately,the main problem with the term peak human is that it carries the connotation that the subject is the appex of human ability.That you can't get any better than them physically.

Also,literally my entire argument is that different franchises have different baselines for their characters.(Humans generally can't jump over peoples heads and onto their shoulders.S*** would require an insane amount of leg strength)One series fodder is anothers god tier.That's kind of why I brought up SMT.To show just how insanely high so called human characters can get.
And no,I don't think most of the series gets too far in Smash.Most of the cast doesn't make it to Link or Ganon much less guys like Simon,Shulk,or Ness.

I didn't mention Superman, why are you bringing him up? I didn't say Spider-man = Superman. Obviously that's not true. In case it's not clear, I will state it: Yes, I know that superhuman is a broad category. Yes I know Spider-man is superhuman. Yes I know Superman is superhuman. Yes I know that Superman is magnitudes more powerful than Spider-man. All of the fiction about them reinforces this in both visuals and narrative. I would have no reason to debate that. We are in agreement, it seems?
Whoops,must have misread you.
Also,I thought visuals didn't matter so why are you even bringing them up?

Oh my God, I'm going to start a Snide Remarks counter for you. You act like I'm just ignoring what you're saying. I'm starting to think that YOU are being a troll and it's really unfortunate since I was enjoying this thread and I was starting to think that maybe you and I were coming to an understanding, but you just can't help yourself, can you?
lolnah I've just been in threads like this several times before and typically guys who make the type of arguments you do tend to ignore any point that they aren't able to address and I really had no reason to believe you were any different.I guess you're the exception to the rule then?

Are you talking about the prologue? Where the children are running and hiding while the famous General Mycen does all the fighting? I don't think that's much proof for FE humans being super powerful?
Yeah,no.
I'm not sure if we're talking about different games,you're making s*** up,or you just weren't paying attention.
But I'll be glad to refresh your memory.
Shadows of Valentia said:
Mycen: Listen well, children. We will drive these ruffians away, but you must follow my every command.
Alm: What? But we’re no match for them!
Celica: …You’re serious, Grandpapa?
Gray: He’s ALWAYS serious. It’s just that this time, he’s also crazy!
Tobin: We can’t do this! Half a dozen children can’t win against mounted knights!
Faye: I…I want my mother…
Kliff: I wanna go home!
Mycen: Enough!
Alm: …!
Mycen: The only way you’re going home is by fighting as if your life depends on it!
Does this sound like a guy who drove off a bunch of nights while a bunch of kids hid in a corner?
But hey,don't take my word for it
Shadows Of Valentia said:
Alm: We did it! We actually did it! Look at ’em run, Grandpapa!
Gray: So, wait. HOW did we do that. exactly?
Tobin: Ha ha! It’s all in the wrist.
Not bad for a bunch of kids,eh?
Though truth be told Camus and (god help us) Kris have better stuff to work with in terms of direct undeniable stuff.

The war leading up to the Ending Winter itself seems like a good enough reason for the Dragons to leave Elibe. I concede that the possibility exists for the Ending Winter to be a continent-wide event, but it's certainly not the only possibility from the vague language used, and not the way I would have interpreted it while playing the game. But yeah, if you wanna interpret it that way, power to you! That is a decent argument for Roy hype!
It's been awhile since I've played Binding Blade but from what I recall there was no end to the Scouring in sight for most of it.Humans had a numbers advantage while the dragons despite being outnumbered were durable enough that humans had a very hard time actually killing them which essentially led to a stalemate.The creation of the legendary weapons was largely to produce a superweapon that could finally end the war(Think of their creation as something akin to a high fantasy version of the manhatten project).Of course what finally led to the end of the scouring was the effects of the ending winter itself.After it all happened dragons could not physically survive extended periods of time in their natural forms which made defeating most of them childs play.
So no,it wasn't the scouring itself.That seems like a pretty extreme reaction anyway tbh.
 
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12cheeper

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Wow... do we really wanna be anything like /a/ ? I feel like that's reason enough NOT to treat eachother like that?
So long as this doesn't devolve into waifu wars and Madara copypastas we should be good I think.
Sure, I agree. I was saying that most Smash characters are mildly superhuman at *least*, in comparison to FE humans, which are closer to real humans than most.
Nah,Smash runs the whole gambit of character tiers.
From sub average human all the way up to universal and even beyond.
 

DjinnandTonic

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One,I didn't call you insane I called your argument insane which it is.Generally I don't call people crazy unless they do s*** like sending death or **** threats.You can make dumb arguments without being an actual lunatic.
Second,how thin must your skin be to get this offended over some light hearted ribbing as a means of saying "bro,this argument is dumb as hell"?Like,I genuinely can't imagine how someone like this would react to actual fan communities or even real life social settings for that matter.(I have legit never been friends with a guy who didn't do any ribbing and even family members have said worse tbh)
Like,damn,if I knew you were this emotionally fragile I probably would've used something else.
I'm pretty sure it's still arguing in bad faith to wave off my logic as 'insane' without considering my perspective. Tossing around ad hominems isn't conducive to making your point heard. It's an unintended distraction at best and a bad faith deflection at worst. But yeah, if you think you could go out of your way to simply not 'hurt my fragile emotions' with comments designed to belittle me, I sure wouldn't complain. I don't see what's so strange about common politeness?


lolnope.Peak human is perfectly in line with your inane logic.Ninja training makes you stronger than the average joe in the same sense that irl military training makes you a better fighter than most civilians just with some exotic powers and even those don't explain durability sans sage mode(wait,nvm forgot that feats don't actually count unless someone repeats what just happened on panel.)
Ninjas have Chakra, literal innate magic energy that allows them to do everything from magically strengthen parts of their bodies to increase durability to throwing around fireballs and producing matter. They are superhuman. The text explains that they are. There's no reason not to believe what's visually seen because it doesn't contradict the text. I don't understand what is so hard about this concept?

Goku is treated as an exceptionally skilled martial artist but the term superhuman is never actually used.
Right. Not superhuman, the text uses Super Saiyajin. Again, I'm not sure where you think there's a discrepancy between the text and the visuals here?

Devil fruits only provide generic x-men powers and there is no statements of amplified statistics.(Hell,Zoro/Zolo is just a really good swordsman)
Luffy has increased durability and speed and such from his devil fruit power, making him superhuman in this regard, it is stated so in the text, so the visuals, once again, agree. Not sure exactly what Zoro's deal is, I haven't been keeping up with One Piece.

Demon summoning is typically done with a literal computer program and while it's been awhile I'm pretty sure that both the SMT1 protagonist and Aleph don't use magic presumably to add incentive to demon negotiating.
Also,I thought you were all about explicit story details?This "humans can transcend their humanity" nonsense isn't even remotely implied beyond your personal headcanon and I assume you're only pushing it because you've been backed into a metaphorical corner.
Yes,humans can become demons(The demi fiend is living proof of this) but this is ultimately irrelevant because most protags never become demons anyway.
If it's headcanon and not actual canon, I apologize. I was going off of half-remembered SMT knowledge from some time ago. I don't recall the specifics of how SMT contextualizes its protagonists' powers. Is there some scene showing Aleph or Yu or whoever taking some ridiculous blast and the text contradicting what is seen?

Also, I don't get this combative attitude you have towards this discussion. You act like I'm trying to 'win' and will do anything if I'm 'backed into a metaphorical corner', but I'm genuinely just interested in figuring out the limits of the character interpretations at play here.

Ummm....aren't you the one who's been arguing that literally every human character is regular irl human level whether or not they have holy blood or it's local equivalent?(Yknow,like Chrom and Alm?)Hell,even further back you were comparing Draggo Corrin to Anankos.Why the sudden change of heart?Just curious.
For one, I argued that FE Humans are specifically good at killing dragons. But also, I agree that you have a point about at least Xander, who is specifically hyped up by the text itself, to be more than a match for Corrin. They don't attribute -why- precisely, but it seems like perhaps the dragon blood could be a part of it. And the magical superweapon. Magic swords in Fire Emblem tend to have anti-dragon properties, particularly when they're made by other dragons (as Xander's is made by the Rainbow Sage). I'm not sure this makes swordless Xander particularly much stronger than a regular IRL human, but I am open to the interpretation. But I don't think that's the only interpretation. Most Smash characters can be interpreted several different ways. I don't have some kind automatic dismissal of anything visual that occurs. I just think that when the narrative and visuals don't support eachother, the narrative takes precedence.

Do you see anyone else in this thread saying things like "visible feats don't count only character dialogue does"?
There's seems to be a lot of debate over just how powerful the pokemon characters are due to how the narrative frames them vastly differently from how the gameplay visuals act out. Pokemon never seem to kill humans or other pokemon despite the visuals involving huge explosions and ridiculous speeds. Mewtwo supposedly having power to rival creation deity pokemon, yet being captured by a small child seems at odds with how the narrative frames the visuals. People have been debating the interpretation of what Rosalina's visual feat of restarting the universe and growing to a giant size in Mario Galaxy might mean based on the sparse textual narrative. Hell, even one or two pages ago, there was debate over whether Kirby has limitless power or not, since the visuals don't seem to support the text there. In some cases, people come down on the side of the visuals. That's fine. In some cases, people supported the textual narrative. Also fine. I tend to agree with the textual narrative. But I am not completely dismissing all visual information. Fire Emblem itself is one of the rare examples of a Nintendo game with a lot of text and world-building, so I tend to favor its text over its visuals. Historically it hasn't been a very visually-driven game. For something like Kirby, which is almost entirely visually-told with little-to-no dialogue, I would probably tend closer to its visuals, since that's the main method of story-telling. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle of both extremes in most cases, and feeling out the edges of those extremes is why I'm still debating you on this.

Citation needed.I have literally never heard of this.It's never brought up in any creative writing class,never mentioned by filmmakers,and the closest I've seen to it is animated characters needing slight exaggeration in their animations because they look bad without it.Mind pointing me to the literature that documents this supposed history?
You really need a citation for the concept of Artistic License? Rule of Cool?

Except the term peak human is never really used outside of Marvel and DC and both companies define the term more or less identically.
Even if it was how WOULD you define it then?Strongest person who ever lived?That might make you peak human in strength,sure but not really peak human in general.Can run at the theoretical top human speed?That's kinda the same deal with speed.What about having a nice mix of speed and power that lets you excel in your niche?Certainly realistic with the proper diet assuming you're physically active but it's not exactly peak in anything,is it?
Ultimately,the main problem with the term peak human is that it carries the connotation that the subject is the appex of human ability.That you can't get any better than them physically.

Also,literally my entire argument is that different franchises have different baselines for their characters.(Humans generally can't jump over peoples heads and onto their shoulders.S*** would require an insane amount of leg strength)One series fodder is anothers god tier.That's kind of why I brought up SMT.To show just how insanely high so called human characters can get.
And no,I don't think most of the series gets too far in Smash.Most of the cast doesn't make it to Link or Ganon much less guys like Simon,Shulk,or Ness.
Well, I personally would define Peak Human as on the level of a top/Olympic athlete at the skill they are shown to be proficient at. Fire Emblem characters are textually regarded as above-average human soldiers, so it seems reasonable, given the over-the-top visuals even, to assume that they are the best at their talents in their world, akin to a top/Olympic athlete. Assuming beyond human level without support from the text starts getting more subjective.

Whoops,must have misread you.
Also,I thought visuals didn't matter so why are you even bringing them up?
I answered this earlier, but tl;dr: No, I think narrative supercedes visuals, not that visuals are inherently wrong. Obviously a lot of stories have matching narrative and visuals! I just don't think the Fire Emblem franchise is one of those.

Yeah,no.
I'm not sure if we're talking about different games,you're making s*** up,or you just weren't paying attention.
But I'll be glad to refresh your memory.

Does this sound like a guy who drove off a bunch of nights while a bunch of kids hid in a corner?
But hey,don't take my word for it

Not bad for a bunch of kids,eh?
Mycen is there, doing all the real work. Before the fight begins, he even orders them to stay away. If any of the kids take more than one hit, pretty sure they die and maybe you get a game over? (I dunno, I was never tempted to get one of them killed...)

It's been awhile since I've played Binding Blade but from what I recall there was no end to the Scouring in sight for most of it.Humans had a numbers advantage while the dragons despite being outnumbered were durable enough that humans had a very hard time actually killing them which essentially led to a stalemate.The creation of the legendary weapons was largely to produce a superweapon that could finally end the war(Think of their creation as something akin to a high fantasy version of the manhatten project).Of course what finally led to the end of the scouring was the effects of the ending winter itself.After it all happened dragons could not physically survive extended periods of time in their natural forms which made defeating most of them childs play.
So no,it wasn't the scouring itself.That seems like a pretty extreme reaction anyway tbh.
Okay, I'll take your word for it here, I've only played FE6 once and not my native language. But sure, your argument sounds logical and doesn't seem to contradict the text, so... Roy w/ Binding Blade for Continent Level, then? (I assume he still has the durability of regular human, though.)
 
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monzer

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Messages
294
Wario is canonically immortal
Evidence for this? Cartoony immunity to certain attacks is different than actual immortality or invincibility.

Hell, even one or two pages ago, there was debate over whether Kirby has limitless power or not, since the visuals don't seem to support the text there.
Just a nit pick here but I wasn't saying that it was wrong because it contradicted the visuals. I was saying that the statement was never meant to be taken literally, and that's proven by nothing else in the story matching up with that (including visuals).

For something like Kirby, which is almost entirely visually-told with little-to-no dialogue, I would probably tend closer to its visuals, since that's the main method of story-telling. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle of both extremes in most cases, and feeling out the edges of those extremes is why I'm still debating you on this.
The Kirby lore texts are actually extremely useful and accurate when dealing with Kirby's scaling. They're super good because even when they're wrong, they usually use word like "might" or "maybe", to imply uncertainty, whereas direct statements are pretty much never contradicted.

From sub average human all the way up to universal and even beyond.
I actually recently found an argument about how Mario characters may even go up to high hyperversal. I want to evaluate it before I put it here or anything but it comes from someone who is supposedly good at this sort of thing so it might be accurate.
 
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DrCoeloCephalo

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DrCoeloCephalo
Evidence for this? Cartoony immunity to certain attacks is different than actual immortality or invincibility.
Wario Land 2 and 3, man. You literally cannot die. Only damage you ever take is like losing 3 coins per hit and in the case of zombies and bats, you also become either a zombie or vampire, which are undead. Even Wario himself has said he's immortal.
 

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monzer

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Wario Land 2 and 3, man. You literally cannot die. Only damage you ever take is like losing 3 coins per hit and in the case of zombies and bats, you also become either a zombie or vampire, which are undead.
This is a bit of a no limits fallacy. He's not completely impervious to damage just because the characters in his game are too weak to hurt him. Some of the characters we're dealing with here are planet-star busters all the way to straight up universal. Wario is pretty powerful in some of his appearances but in Wario 2 and 3 he doesn't have too many feats.

Even Wario himself has said he's immortal.
Statements like these can be taken with a grain of salt. Again this is really only referring to the characters in that game.

Note: Wario is pretty strong though. In Mario 64 ds he scales to that games' version of Bowser, who's star level.
 

Zinith

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Note: Wario is pretty strong though. In Mario 64 ds he scales to that games' version of Bowser, who's star level.
Wait, if one character defeating another character scales them to that level, then should Yoshi be on his level since he defeated adult Bowser in Topsy-Turvy, Island DS and New Island, both normal sized AND giant?
 

DrCoeloCephalo

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he doesn't have too many feats.
You mean like destroying a giant evil clown sealed away for thousands of years inside of a pocket dimension whose powers can encompass that entire dimension or defeating a jewel that civilizations around the globe have died out going to war against just to seal away only for him to beat both to a pulp and only did so to both in the first place only because of the money?

Source: Wario Land 3 and Wario World

Many of the enemies in Wario games are armored brutes, giants, your usual enemies that breathe fire, robots, 60 foot long venomous snakes among other monstrosities. Characters like Mario and Kirby straight up die when touching things like that. Wario doesn't.

64DS completely ignores the fact he has some of the fastest running and swimming speed, the fact he has no air timer, his ability to lift and throw smaller enemies, etc. 64DS Wario is just an example of the developers being laughably ignorant about their own characters.
 
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monzer

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Wait, if one character defeating another character scales them to that level, then should Yoshi be on his level since he defeated adult Bowser in Topsy-Turvy, Island DS and New Island, both normal sized AND giant?
The Mario universe doesn't have much of a continuity, so feats from one game don't necessarily scale to other games. That being said, in Mario 64 ds, Yoshi can fight that version of Bowser, so in his strongest forms he would be on that level.

You mean like destroying a giant evil clown sealed away for thousands of years inside of a pocket dimension whose powers can encompass that entire dimension or defeating a jewel that civilizations around the globe have died out going to war against just to seal away only for him to beat both to a pulp and only did so to both in the first place only because of the money?
Those aren't feats. At least, they aren't clear feats. Feats are usually clear acts of strength/speed that we can scale. For example, Kirby destroying a planet would be a feat, as would Donkey Kong knocking his moon out of orbit. Statements like "power over the whole dimension" or "civilizations have died" are unquantifiable unless you can say just how much power is needed to control that dimension, or how strong the civilizations were.

Many of the enemies in Wario games are armored brutes, giants, your usual enemies that breathe fire, robots, 60 foot long venomous snakes among other monstrosities. Characters like Mario and Kirby straight up die when touching things like that. Wario doesn't.
The appearance of enemies is pretty irrelevant. What matters is their feats. Waddle Dees in Kirby look weak but in actually they're capable of making a huge crack in pop star. Just because enemies look bigger/stronger doesn't mean they actually are. Also Mario being damaged by his enemies is more of a game mechanic if anything. His high end feats are ridiculous (fighting the strongest versions of Bowser, fighting a multiversal threat in Super Paper Mario, defeating enemies who are stated to destroy dreams, which are entire universes in Mario lore).

64DS completely ignores the fact he has some of the fastest running and swimming speed, the fact he has no air timer, his ability to lift and throw smaller enemies, etc. 64DS Wario is just an example of the developers being laughably ignorant about their own characters.
Mario doesn't have a consistent canon. The characters are like actors, they can be used in any way the developers like throughout games. Each game's version of a certain character is different. Miyamoto states that "I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games." It's definitely possible that Wario in one game is just slower relative to the other characters, whereas in other games he is much faster.

i'd say ganondorf zelda Rosalina and palutema as there all gods/god incarnations
"God" is only a title. A god is just a relatively powerful being that others worship. All of these characters scale to gods in their series:
:ultbayonetta::ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultcloud::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultfalco::ultfox::ultganondorf::ultgreninja::ultike::ultincineroar::ultkingdedede::ultkirby::ultlink::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultluigi::ultmario::ultlucina::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultness::ultpalutena::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpiranha::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultpokemontrainer::ultridley::ultrobin::ultrosalina::ultchrom::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultsheik::ultshulk::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultwario::ultwolf::ultyoshi::ultyounglink::ultzelda::ultzss:
Being a god isn't very special. it just means that they're powerful compared the other other characters in their universe.
 

REZERO

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You guys should probably be using outskirts battledome if you want realism when judging the characters in smash.

Im gonna take a stab at this and say Sonic, Kirby, Mewtwo, and Bayonetta are canonically the strongest of the roster based on what I have seen them do in their games.
 

monzer

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Guys it's been some time since I've been here but I think that some versions of Mario are legit universal now. Not even paper Mario. Base Mario in a lot of games is universal. I will post again with more details later.
 

RetrogamerMax

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I know I'm probably not too much of a expert on this subject, but if I had to guess who is the most powerful character in the roster canonically I would guess Mewtwo because of him being one of the most powerful Pokemon in existence, Ganondorf because of him welding the Triforce of Power and basically almost making him a god, or Kirby since he beat Majin Buu in Death Battle lol.
 
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You guys should probably be using outskirts battledome if you want realism when judging the characters in smash.

Im gonna take a stab at this and say Sonic, Kirby, Mewtwo, and Bayonetta are canonically the strongest of the roster based on what I have seen them do in their games.
To be fair, even going by this, Giant Bowser was able to launch a large castle across the world in several seconds and in MP9 and Galaxy 2, he was able to resist the pull of a void that in MP9 could pull in and eat planets as well as what looks like light in Galaxy 2 (and Mario fought him). Said black hole in Galaxy 2 also dissipated the large supermassive black hole that the Galaxy Reactor was in front of. The World Map shows a progression of scale from a planet (World 1) to a galaxy cluster (World 5), and this black hole was the World after said galaxy cluster. That's a reference as to the maximum size. Even if you didn't believe that, the smallest thing to compare it to based on the world map is a planet, so it's still impressive for Mario/Luigi and Bowser no matter what. Yes, Bowser was powered-up by a Grand Star, but so were previous bosses as well (which makes it very impressive for Mario), and you see Bowser in the credits in a very small form suggesting he still partly tanked it in his base form, and even if not, he's clearly comparable to Mario regardless as the first Galaxy shows us.

Bowser tanking many black holes as well as creating those black holes should at least be a thing that puts him high on the list of "Surface-level looks at characters" when determining power levels.

As far as Joker? He's quited haxxed and very powerful towards the end of the game. Arguably in the Top 5 or Top 10.
 
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monzer

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I know I'm probably not too much of a expert on this subject, but if I had to guess who is the most powerful character in the roster canonically I would guess Mewtwo because of him being one of the most powerful Pokemon in existence, Ganondorf because of him welding the Triforce of Power and basically almost making him a god, or Kirby since he beat Majin Buu in Death Battle lol.
Pretty close for a quick guess. Mewtwo scales to planet level if I recall correctly and has a lot of hax. He's definitely up there. Ganondorf isn't that strong though. He hasn't shown anything comparable to the higher tiers. Kirby is multi-galaxy/universal.


As far as Joker? He's quited haxxed and very powerful towards the end of the game. Arguably in the Top 5 or Top 10.
What are some of his feats?

Haha. Glad to see Kirby getting recognition. Kirby is multi-galaxy/universal as of Star Allies. Dedede and Meta Knight are just as strong too. Kirby characters only lose to high end Mario characters.

Should also add Eleven, or The Luminary, to this list. Arguably THE strongest character yet.
Who are these guys?

Ok so once again I've realized that Mario characters are even stronger than I thought at first. Prepare for a huge wall of text that should prove that the top tier Mario characters have the most power by far (degrees of infinity beyond Shulk, Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Arceus and the other legendary Pokemon, Archie Sonic, exc.).

First of all, Mario characters with power stars are consistently shown to be universal in terms of power.

In Super Mario 64, Bowser was able to create alternate dimensions in the paintings. The manual calls Bomb-omb Battlefield "another world", so they are separate from the main world and thus have their own space and time. These dimensions weren't there to begin with and Mario is stated to have went to Peach's castle "right away," so given the amount of worlds in the game and the short time Bowser had to make them this is a casual feat.

Obviously creation doesn't equal destruction, but power stars boost stats in the Mario universe, so it wouldn't make sense if they only boost creation to universal and not destruction as well, especially since Bowser's creation is inferior to his destruction in base. Mario can tank attacks from Bowser and throw him around, so I would say he scales (though Mario is weaker). Also in the ds remake Luigi, Wario, and Yoshi are all playable and equal to Mario.

In Mario Galaxy, Bowser's Galaxy Reactor and it's subsequent explosion is stated to be a universal threat in the guidebook. This guidebook also stated that Bowser was hit by the explosion of his own reactor, and this is corroborated by the ending cut-scene. While the full output of the collective force of the lumas was able to save Mario and Peach from the resulting (universe level) black hole, Bowser was hit by the explosion and black hole before the lumas even did anything. Bowser is still alive at the end of the game, so he was able to survive both the explosion and the black hole for at least a short period of time. Before this happened Bowser had already been beaten by Mario, so he was wounded+fatigued when he tanked it.

Also if we take the story into account, Rosalina and the lumas seemed to be pretty helpless against Bowser and relied on Mario and the Master luma to do everything. Because of this, it is very much possible that Mario, when boosted by the master luma, is stronger than the collective force of all the other lumas. This, plus the fact that Mario is able to hit an (off guard) Bowser, should be enough to put Mario at universal level as well.

Bowser's galaxy reactor itself is stated to be able to create a universe that Bowser would have control over, destroying the current one. Also via scaling its power should be greater than Bowser's own power. Basically the scaling of the Galaxy games is Lumas casually<Mario<Reactor's explosion<full output of the Lumas<Bowser<Bowser's Reactor. Luigi is also equal to Mario here as he always is.

In Galaxy 2, there aren't any outright feats, but since it's a direct sequel to the first game, everything should scale. Bowser should be even more powerful than before while giant, and in the final battle he boosts himself even further by eating a grand star. Bowser's galaxy reactor should also logically be superior to the first one, though this is just speculation. Yoshi is also in the game so he scales to Mario's feats, Also Bowser being able to design and build these reactors in such a short amount of time is a ridiculously good intelligence feat.

In Super Mario Sunshine, the secret levels, which act like parallel universes similar to the painting worlds in 64, have childlike cartoon-ish designs in them, and have goop that we know was created by Shadow Mario aka Bowser Jr. Since there isn't any other explanation to how they were created, it's safe to assume that Bowser Jr. created them. These universes are also large and have many stars, and celestial bodies in them. This, plus their similarity to the painting worlds, shows that they are separate universes from the main universe. Bowser Jr. also seemingly did this right before Mario arrives, so it was in a short time span. Because of this I think that Shine Sprites are equivalent to Power stars.

This makes Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, Bowser, Bowser Jr, or any other Mario character powered by power stars or a power star equivalent universal.

Mario 3d world has mechanics more similar to the 3d games though, so I wouldn't say it scales. Mario Odyssey's power moons don't scale either, unless you assume that the power moons in the mushroom kingdom are equivalent to the Mario 64 power stars.

Also most games to feature dreams have crazy feats. As we know, in Mario cosmology there is a realm called the dream depot, where every character has their dreams stored as a separate universe. This makes the dream depot a massive multiversal structure, especially since beings in the dream depot can sleep and have dreams of their own. Since paint (which makes up all universes) itself is alive in Mario and can sleep, there's a crap ton of living beings. Also some universes are infinite and are thus filled with infinite life forms that can dream. Explaining the ramifications of this in full detail would take forever so i'll just link this post I found that should explain everything. If you don't want to read that, just know that dream=universe and dream depot=extremely large multiverse with potentially infinite mathematical dimensions.

In Super Mario Bros. 2, an early boss in the game, Mouser, is stated to be able to destroy dreams (universes). Mario is able to tank Mouser's attacks and defeat him. Wart is so strong that Mario can't even damage him. Wart is literally only defeated because he hates vegetables and Mario throws them into his mouth. Wart should transitively be at least vaguely above universe level, and he also has a feat of his own, cursing and changing Subcon from it's "natural state". Subcon is called the "land of dreams," so it's a multi-universal area.

The dream depot was shown to exist in the Mario party games, the Mario and Luigi series, and the Paper Mario games (via paper jam).

In Mario and Luigi Dream Team, the brothers defeat Antasma, Dreamy Bowser, and The Zeekeeper, all of which are powered by the dream stone or a dream stone equivalent (in Antasma's case, the dark stone). The dream stone and dark stone contain an unstated amount of dreams inside of them, but given how they are ancient artifacts, they were around for a long amount of time. The same logic that is applied in the dream world can be applied here. Infinite universes=Infinite space=infinite life forms=infinite dreams increasing by degrees of infinity over time. The dream stone isn't as big as the dream depot, but it's still a huge multiverse that potentially has many spacial mathematical dimensions.

In the Mario party games, the star guardians (or star spirits), are known to watch over the dream depot and create the dreams within them. The fact that they guard the realm also implies that they can fight off or at least match beings that could potentially destroy the dream depot, so in terms of both creation and destruction, the star spirits are dream depot level.

In Paper Mario, Bowser, with the help of the star rod (that he didn't even know how to use), completely trashed the star spirits. While you could argue that the star spirits are different from the Mario party ones, Mario characters usually have the occupations and "roles" maintained (I.e. Mario is always a plumber, Peach is always a Princess, Wario is always wealthy, Bowser is always the king of the koopas), and given the fact that the dream Depot exists in the Paper Mario universe their control over it carries over.

Later on in this game, Paper Mario uses the star spirits as special attacks to supplement his own. Mario, his party members, and the Star Spirits are able to defeat a Star Rod Bowser, who now has more experience. Since the only difference in this fight was the presence of Mario and his party, Mario and his teammates were the ones who put in most of the work in this fight since we know that the star spirits don't stand much of a chance against him.

Bowser then powers up even more, so much so that the star spirits can't even harm him. Then the star spirits then get a boost of their own and are able to defeat Bowser.

In case you need a summary, Dream Depot≤Star Spirits<Star Rod Bowser<Mario and Teammates<Powered Up Bowser<Powered Up Star Spirits. And yes, this means that even base Paper Mario is high multiversal.

There aren't any feats in The Thousand Year Door, but there's enough continuity nods to the original game that it's clear that they take place in the same universe. Because of this the bosses and partners should scale.

In Super Paper Mario things get even more ridiculous. The void is powerful enough to destroy all of existence, which we know at least includes the Mario and Luigi timeline due to Paper Jam, and thus includes the Dream Depot. The Overthere, a realm stated to be on an even higher plane of existence, presumably higher than the Dream Depot, was also going to be destroyed by the void. Because of this a hit from the void is infinite dimensional multiversal (via the Dream Depot), or greater. I'm saying this because Paper Mario, Paper Peach, Paper Bowser, and Paper Luigi, as well as the pixls, all tanked a hit from the void. This attack knocked them out, but it didn't do any serious damage to them and they were still at good health after the hit. Dimentio's casual attack was also able to shake Bleck's castle more than the void was able to.

Count Bleck with the Chaos Heart was even above this to the point where he was completely impervious to damage from anything other than the Pure Hearts. Super Dimentio was even more powerful since Luigi is the best vessel for the chaos heart. The good guys with the Pure hearts were able to beat both of these characters. Super Dimentio, even after being defeated, was still able to keep a small portion of his power left. Even that small portion would have been enough to destroy all of existence.

The pure hearts are also stated to be infinite, and given that the chaos heart is impervious to everything other than the Purity and Chaos heart, the characters powered by those are infinitely above the void and base paper Mario.

So to scale all of this:
Dream Depot<Overthere<The Void<Paper Mario<Dimentio<<<Chaos Heart<Super Dimentio<Pure Hearts

TL;DR: Paper Mario in base form is High Hyperversal, and with Pure Hearts he is infinitely above even that level of power. This makes him, Peach, Bowser, and Luigi who scale to him the most powerful characters in Smash.

Holy crap this took time to write out. I've been playing the rpg games and I feel like someone has to write this all out. I'll probably come back again for the speed feats some other time. A lot of this may sound like **** but once you look over all the lore this becomes more apparent. Anyway I doubt this thread will get any more active because of this but I have to say that this stuff is really fun and is part of the reason why I'm studying physics.
 
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