Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[The Rhythm Theif]

I thought it was well-understood that Bayonetta was the strongest character in the game. Why are there 171 pages of this?

Bayonetta is canonically the third strongest Smash character. LOL. The only two that are canonically stronger than the Umbra Witch are Rosalina and Kirby.

 

[Freduardo]

Spoiler: Responding to people

Pretty close for a quick guess. Mewtwo scales to planet level if I recall correctly and has a lot of hax. He's definitely up there. Ganondorf isn't that strong though. He hasn't shown anything comparable to the higher tiers. Kirby is multi-galaxy/universal.




What are some of his feats?



Haha. Glad to see Kirby getting recognition. Kirby is multi-galaxy/universal as of Star Allies. Dedede and Meta Knight are just as strong too. Kirby characters only lose to high end Mario characters.



Who are these guys?

Ok so once again I've realized that Mario characters are even stronger than I thought at first. Prepare for a huge wall of text that should prove that the top tier Mario characters have the most power by far (degrees of infinity beyond Shulk, Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Arceus and the other legendary Pokemon, Archie Sonic, exc.).

First of all, Mario characters with power stars are consistently shown to be universal in terms of power.

In Super Mario 64, Bowser was able to create alternate dimensions in the paintings. The manual calls Bomb-omb Battlefield "another world", so they are separate from the main world and thus have their own space and time. These dimensions weren't there to begin with and Mario is stated to have went to Peach's castle "right away," so given the amount of worlds in the game and the short time Bowser had to make them this is a casual feat.

Obviously creation doesn't equal destruction, but power stars boost stats in the Mario universe, so it wouldn't make sense if they only boost creation to universal and not destruction as well, especially since Bowser's creation is inferior to his destruction in base. Mario can tank attacks from Bowser and throw him around, so I would say he scales (though Mario is weaker). Also in the ds remake Luigi, Wario, and Yoshi are all playable and equal to Mario.

In Mario Galaxy, Bowser's Galaxy Reactor and it's subsequent explosion is stated to be a universal threat in the guidebook. This guidebook also stated that Bowser was hit by the explosion of his own reactor, and this is corroborated by the ending cut-scene. While the full output of the collective force of the lumas was able to save Mario and Peach from the resulting (universe level) black hole, Bowser was hit by the explosion and black hole before the lumas even did anything. Bowser is still alive at the end of the game, so he was able to survive both the explosion and the black hole for at least a short period of time. Before this happened Bowser had already been beaten by Mario, so he was wounded+fatigued when he tanked it.

Also if we take the story into account, Rosalina and the lumas seemed to be pretty helpless against Bowser and relied on Mario and the Master luma to do everything. Because of this, it is very much possible that Mario, when boosted by the master luma, is stronger than the collective force of all the other lumas. This, plus the fact that Mario is able to hit an (off guard) Bowser, should be enough to put Mario at universal level as well.

Bowser's galaxy reactor itself is stated to be able to create a universe that Bowser would have control over, destroying the current one. Also via scaling its power should be greater than Bowser's own power. Basically the scaling of the Galaxy games is Lumas casually<Mario<Reactor's explosion<full output of the Lumas<Bowser<Bowser's Reactor. Luigi is also equal to Mario here as he always is.

In Galaxy 2, there aren't any outright feats, but since it's a direct sequel to the first game, everything should scale. Bowser should be even more powerful than before while giant, and in the final battle he boosts himself even further by eating a grand star. Bowser's galaxy reactor should also logically be superior to the first one, though this is just speculation. Yoshi is also in the game so he scales to Mario's feats, Also Bowser being able to design and build these reactors in such a short amount of time is a ridiculously good intelligence feat.

In Super Mario Sunshine, the secret levels, which act like parallel universes similar to the painting worlds in 64, have childlike cartoon-ish designs in them, and have goop that we know was created by Shadow Mario aka Bowser Jr. Since there isn't any other explanation to how they were created, it's safe to assume that Bowser Jr. created them. These universes are also large and have many stars, and celestial bodies in them. This, plus their similarity to the painting worlds, shows that they are separate universes from the main universe. Bowser Jr. also seemingly did this right before Mario arrives, so it was in a short time span. Because of this I think that Shine Sprites are equivalent to Power stars.

This makes Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, Bowser, Bowser Jr, or any other Mario character powered by power stars or a power star equivalent universal.

Mario 3d world has mechanics more similar to the 3d games though, so I wouldn't say it scales. Mario Odyssey's power moons don't scale either, unless you assume that the power moons in the mushroom kingdom are equivalent to the Mario 64 power stars.

Also most games to feature dreams have crazy feats. As we know, in Mario cosmology there is a realm called the dream depot, where every character has their dreams stored as a separate universe. This makes the dream depot a massive multiversal structure, especially since beings in the dream depot can sleep and have dreams of their own. Since paint (which makes up all universes) itself is alive in Mario and can sleep, there's a crap ton of living beings. Also some universes are infinite and are thus filled with infinite life forms that can dream. Explaining the ramifications of this in full detail would take forever so i'll just link this post I found that should explain everything. If you don't want to read that, just know that dream=universe and dream depot=extremely large multiverse with potentially infinite mathematical dimensions.

In Super Mario Bros. 2, an early boss in the game, Mouser, is stated to be able to destroy dreams (universes). Mario is able to tank Mouser's attacks and defeat him. Wart is so strong that Mario can't even damage him. Wart is literally only defeated because he hates vegetables and Mario throws them into his mouth. Wart should transitively be at least vaguely above universe level, and he also has a feat of his own, cursing and changing Subcon from it's "natural state". Subcon is called the "land of dreams," so it's a multi-universal area.

The dream depot was shown to exist in the Mario party games, the Mario and Luigi series, and the Paper Mario games (via paper jam).

In Mario and Luigi Dream Team, the brothers defeat Antasma, Dreamy Bowser, and The Zeekeeper, all of which are powered by the dream stone or a dream stone equivalent (in Antasma's case, the dark stone). The dream stone and dark stone contain an unstated amount of dreams inside of them, but given how they are ancient artifacts, they were around for a long amount of time. The same logic that is applied in the dream world can be applied here. Infinite universes=Infinite space=infinite life forms=infinite dreams increasing by degrees of infinity over time. The dream stone isn't as big as the dream depot, but it's still a huge multiverse that potentially has many spacial mathematical dimensions.

In the Mario party games, the star guardians (or star spirits), are known to watch over the dream depot and create the dreams within them. The fact that they guard the realm also implies that they can fight off or at least match beings that could potentially destroy the dream depot, so in terms of both creation and destruction, the star spirits are dream depot level.

In Paper Mario, Bowser, with the help of the star rod (that he didn't even know how to use), completely trashed the star spirits. While you could argue that the star spirits are different from the Mario party ones, Mario characters usually have the occupations and "roles" maintained (I.e. Mario is always a plumber, Peach is always a Princess, Wario is always wealthy, Bowser is always the king of the koopas), and given the fact that the dream Depot exists in the Paper Mario universe their control over it carries over.

Later on in this game, Paper Mario uses the star spirits as special attacks to supplement his own. Mario, his party members, and the Star Spirits are able to defeat a Star Rod Bowser, who now has more experience. Since the only difference in this fight was the presence of Mario and his party, Mario and his teammates were the ones who put in most of the work in this fight since we know that the star spirits don't stand much of a chance against him.

Bowser then powers up even more, so much so that the star spirits can't even harm him. Then the star spirits then get a boost of their own and are able to defeat Bowser.

In case you need a summary, Dream Depot≤Star Spirits<Star Rod Bowser<Mario and Teammates<Powered Up Bowser<Powered Up Star Spirits. And yes, this means that even base Paper Mario is high multiversal.

There aren't any feats in The Thousand Year Door, but there's enough continuity nods to the original game that it's clear that they take place in the same universe. Because of this the bosses and partners should scale.

In Super Paper Mario things get even more ridiculous. The void is powerful enough to destroy all of existence, which we know at least includes the Mario and Luigi timeline due to Paper Jam, and thus includes the Dream Depot. The Overthere, a realm stated to be on an even higher plane of existence, presumably higher than the Dream Depot, was also going to be destroyed by the void. Because of this a hit from the void is infinite dimensional multiversal (via the Dream Depot), or greater. I'm saying this because Paper Mario, Paper Peach, Paper Bowser, and Paper Luigi, as well as the pixls, all tanked a hit from the void. This attack knocked them out, but it didn't do any serious damage to them and they were still at good health after the hit. Dimentio's casual attack was also able to shake Bleck's castle more than the void was able to.

Count Bleck with the Chaos Heart was even above this to the point where he was completely impervious to damage from anything other than the Pure Hearts. Super Dimentio was even more powerful since Luigi is the best vessel for the chaos heart. The good guys with the Pure hearts were able to beat both of these characters. Super Dimentio, even after being defeated, was still able to keep a small portion of his power left. Even that small portion would have been enough to destroy all of existence.

The pure hearts are also stated to be infinite, and given that the chaos heart is impervious to everything other than the Purity and Chaos heart, the characters powered by those are infinitely above the void and base paper Mario.

So to scale all of this:
Dream Depot<Overthere<The Void<Paper Mario<Dimentio<<<Chaos Heart<Super Dimentio<Pure Hearts

TL;DR: Paper Mario in base form is High Hyperversal, and with Pure Hearts he is infinitely above even that level of power. This makes him, Peach, Bowser, and Luigi who scale to him the most powerful characters in Smash.

Holy crap this took time to write out. I've been playing the rpg games and I feel like someone has to write this all out. I'll probably come back again for the speed feats some other time. A lot of this may sound like **** but once you look over all the lore this becomes more apparent. Anyway I doubt this thread will get any more active because of this but I have to say that this stuff is really fun and is part of the reason why I'm studying physics.

Super Mario RPG didn’t make the write up? The literal squaresoft rpg power scale for him?

Also you forgot DK in characters that scale to him. And the guy broke the moon by punching it.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Super Mario RPG didn’t make the write up? The literal squaresoft rpg power scale for him?

Also you forgot DK in characters that scale to him. And the guy broke the moon by punching it.

Not to mention, Kirby literally has infinite power. And with all the copy abilities he's had over the years, maybe even beyond THAT.

 

[Sebas22]

Can someone explain to me why almost everyone consider Rosalina as the strongest? She possess magic powers... and that's it.

 

[monzer]

Bayonetta is canonically the third strongest Smash character. LOL. The only two that are canonically stronger than the Umbra Witch are Rosalina and Kirby.

Endgame Shulk also beats out Bayo. He’s universal.

Dedede and Meta Knight are pretty much equal to Kirby. Not sure why people treat Kirby as far above them. In the lore the three are rivals and Kirby needs their help to beat some enemies.

There’s also a crap ton of Mario characters that are stronger than Rosalina. Read the big post I made. Bowser tanked the endgame explosion and resulting black hole that Rosalina’s Lumas had to sacrifice themselves to stop. Paper Mario characters are outright multiversal.

Super Mario RPG didn’t make the write up? The literal squaresoft rpg power scale for him?

Also you forgot DK in characters that scale to him. And the guy broke the moon by punching it.

Crap. I knew I forgot something. Culex is potentially universal given some of his statements. And his statements about him owning time from start to finish should put him at infinite speed. Postgame Mario RPG party members should scale to that. Only postgame though so it wouldn’t scale to Smithy. I’ll add that to the post with citations.

DK moon feat was already mentioned here. I was focusing on the universal+ feats. And DK doesn’t scale to the universal version of Mario since he hasn’t appeared in any main series games with Power Stars. He does scale to the multiversal Mario party characters though.

Not to mention, Kirby literally has infinite power. And with all the copy abilities he's had over the years, maybe even beyond THAT.

The “infinite power” statement is iffy since it’s contradicted by the lore and is likely just hyperbole. That being said there’s a case to be made that Void Termina was going to destroy the entire space time of the universe, and if Kirby and the others beat him then they would be infinitely above most conventional characters.

Can someone explain to me why almost everyone consider Rosalina as the strongest? She possess magic powers... and that's it.

Read the huge post I made yesterday. Rosalina’s Lumas stopped a universal explosion.

 

[Sebas22]

Read the huge post I made yesterday. Rosalina’s Lumas stopped a universal explosion.

Yeah, I know the SMG plot. But I still wonder why she's considered the strongest when she couldn't deal with Bowser. That already makes it: Luigi>Mario>Bowser>Rosalina.

 

[monzer]

Yeah, I know the SMG plot. But I still wonder why she's considered the strongest when she couldn't deal with Bowser. That already makes it: Luigi>Mario>Bowser>Rosalina.

You’re right in that regard then (except Bowser is stronger than Mario and Luigi since Mario only won by exploiting stage hazards). Mario and Bowser are universal in galaxy and superior to Rosalina.

 

[Freduardo]

Can someone explain to me why almost everyone consider Rosalina as the strongest? She possess magic powers... and that's it.

I think the best way to explain it was a comic I once read.

Rosalina calls up Peach and she’s like “Sup, Peach. How you doin’? What are you, the princess of some mushrooms? Yeah I’m just kicking it. As the princess of all outer space!”

 

[ganondorf_22]

Why is Luigi the strongest?

Yeah, I know the SMG plot. But I still wonder why she's considered the strongest when she couldn't deal with Bowser. That already makes it: Luigi>Mario>Bowser>Rosalina.

 

[Zinith]

How does Yoshi stack up now that he defeated Baby Bowser that was elevated by the Sundream stones in Crafted World?

 

[Sebas22]

Why is Luigi the strongest?

His moustache is at least 20 power levels ahead of Mario!

There's also that tiny part in Super Paper Mario when it is stated that Luigi is the one who can decide the fate of the universe. I guess that counts for something.

 

[ganondorf_22]

His moustache is at least 20 power levels ahead of Mario!

There's also that tiny part in Super Paper Mario when it is stated that Luigi is the one who can decide the fate of the universe. I guess that counts for something.

Hm. Luigi it is, then. Case closed.

 

[ganondorf_22]

Hm. Luigi it is, then. Case closed.

I ran a test to confirm. Luigi is the strongest. Replay ID # FRLDH4Y7

 

[monzer]

Why is Luigi the strongest?

He’s not. He’s equal to Mario in pretty much every game.

How does Yoshi stack up now that he defeated Baby Bowser that was elevated by the Sundream stones in Crafted World?

I doubt he would be superior to Yoshi in Mario Galaxy.

His moustache is at least 20 power levels ahead of Mario!

There's also that tiny part in Super Paper Mario when it is stated that Luigi is the one who can decide the fate of the universe. I guess that counts for something.

Basically this isn’t a statement of power but rather potential. He’s the perfect vessel for the chaos heart. This is the reason why Super Dimentio is so powerful.

 

[ganondorf_22]

He’s not. He’s equal to Mario in pretty much every game.



I doubt he would be superior to Yoshi in Mario Galaxy.



Basically this isn’t a statement of power but rather potential. He’s the perfect vessel for the chaos heart. This is the reason why Super Dimentio is so powerful.

Ok, so then how did he beat everyone in that replay I shared on Thursday?

 

[Improdigal]

So what does the updated canon tier list look like?

 

[monzer]

So what does the updated canon tier list look like?

Give me a day or two and I’ll make one to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

How does Yoshi stack up now that he defeated Baby Bowser that was elevated by the Sundream stones in Crafted World?

I'll answer this.

Yoshi, or Kamek (who Yoshi is > than), could make Raphael the Raven turn into a star in one game.

That's already insane.

The Moon you fight on is infamously called tiny, but in the final boss's defeat, you can see Kamek fly Baby Bowser all the way to the Moon in the background, with Kamek looking as small as a pixel compared to it, as well as the World Map showing the Moon is up in the sky and far away from Yoshi's Island. This implies the game couldn't code a Yoshi running around on an object of the Moon's actual size, so Yoshi and Raphael being able to run around the Moon's circumference as well as flying toward it in a short timeframe is a much better feat than originally thought.

As for Crafted World?

The Baby Bowser boss held planets and stars in the background of it's fight, and Yoshi gets launched to this area which seems to be the Moon or even another planet within seconds, which is easily subluminal (relativistic) speeds, to at best, FTL speeds; we even see the Yoshis and Kamek take a while to traverse back to their Island through what may be space. May need to look back on the fight, but yeah. The Sundream Stones were also capable of granting wishes, and the numbers on his body read "9 9 9 9" as if indicating near limitless power since that's as high as the counter could go.

Definitely seems impressive.

As far as Power Stars are concerned, Mario, Luigu, Yoshi, and Wario veat foes empowered by them in base. All Galaxy Mario had was the Luma which granted him the "power" of the Star Spin, and that's not what he used to harm Giant Bowser in the second game.

 

[Improdigal]

Someone said that King Dedede and Meta Knight scale to kirby? Well first off.....
Practically every "fight" kirby has in the series with dedede is completely one sided with dedede completely out of it and kirby seemingly unaffected. Plus, whenever a big threat like nightmare shows up, dedede just throws kirby towards the threat without actually engaging with the enemy.
Meta Knight is closer don't get me wrongm but whenever kirby fights meta knight he uses a sword(meta knight's thing) and still manages to beat him. So it's fairer to say that kirby and meta knight are equal in terms of swordsmanship alone, not actual power. Which is makes kirby about as skilled a sword fighter as the FE characters. Meta Knight is really powerful though. He managed to defeat Galacta Knight, the most powerful warrior in the galaxy. So the fact that kirby outclasses him in his speciality says something.

Kirby was powerful enough to survive being inside a black hole during an extended period of time at only a tenth of his power. He was able to survive an entire planet blowing up in his face without so much as a scratch, and he even held back part of the universe during that one game i forget the name of. He also must have at least light speed reaction times to pilot the warp star and react to attacks during boss fights or avoiding obstacles.

There's also the fact that any character without a means to travel dimensions will lose to kirby as soon as their swallows and sent to the pocket dimension in his stomach, so there's that.

I'm not saying he's the strongest smash character or nothing because im not an expert on everyone's abiities but you guys gotta give the pin demon some respect for his strength.

 

[prowler92]

I've always thought Bayonetta is powerful enough to be considered as one of the top 3 strongest characters in Smash.

 

[Ridley64]

Just look what Ridley can do in Metroid.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Spoiler: Updated List after some new findings for verses and including current DLC characters

Multiversals

Hero - The Luminary scales to Yggsdrasil because of fighting a being who was >= them and winning, and they greated the DQ multiverse. Also MFTL+ and pretty hax.
Archie Sonic (Non-Canon)
Paper Mario (still a form of Mario; non-canon)
Archie Megaman (Non-Canon)
Possibly Simon and Ricther Belmont - Castlevania has got some weird dimensional stuff going on. Also potential infinite speed due to dodging "instantaneous attacks", but if not, MFTL+

Universals
Possibly Joker - Yaldaboath or whatever is a powerful god that did some potential universal shenanigans. If not this, he's still Galaxy and MFTL+ plus hax as heck.

Shulk - Easily seen at the end of his game. Also FTL due to traveling between planets quickly and has precognition as well as some other abilties that increase his stats.

Ness - He held back a universe buster, even if Paula or whatever is the one who ended it. He became one with the world our sonething like that and gained a semi-omnipresence. Also has psychic abilities and other hax.

Rosalina w/ Luma - She's questionably able to warp a universe but should still be fairly powerful otherwise (especially since SMG was calculated to have Solar System to Galaxy level feats, with the Lumas being able to turn into such celestial bodies). However, she DID use her magic to shield Mario and Peach from the explosion. One could infer she could convert that magical energy into an attack. Either way, she's MFTL+ due to consistent Mario Party feats on this level as well as her Observatory that she directly controls being able to traverae the universe and reach the center of it in a quick timeframe. There's also the fact she can summon her Lumas and teleport along with many other abilities including possesion in the form of her astral projection, telekinesis, size manipulation, duplication with a Dpuvle Cherry, and Gravity Manipulation.

Bowser - While not universal in oower without artifacts, he DOES have the durability to survive such an event. This is shown and supported by Galaxy 1's ending and the Prima Guide, which was made under Nintendo's watchful eye, which states he was "shaken from narrowly avoiding a cruel fate" or something along those lines, and he had no protection from Rosalina either. This durability is something a few characters can hope to get by, and he's quite haxxy himself, being able to Time Travel, manipulate Space, Seal other beings, Petrify them to stone, and mant others. With the Grand Stars, he should easily be close enough to this level to justify it as a Grand Star is what powered hus machine before it collapsed without its power and would have destroyed the universe.

Sonic - Really only through his Darkspine form, which is questionably canon. Warped worlds the size of universes, I believe.

Megaman - Only if it's .EXE, however. Destroyed the digital world which was the size of a universe. MFTL+

I guess Mario, Luigi, Bowser Jr., Peach, and maybe Wario, Yoshi, and DK? If you want to scale them to Bowser for being able to consistently harm him. Also, Megabug, Culex, Dreamy Bowser, possibly Mega Baby Bowser, foes who can destroy dreams or would've which can be the size of universes, and likely a few more things could be used to justify this. All should also be MFTL+ since Bowser someone intercepted two ships in the series capable of moving that fast and in general have a few FTL-MFTL+ feats throughout the many games

Galaxy Busters

Mario, Bowser, Luigi - Mario Galaxy calcs and all. Pretty debatable though. So note that these are iffy.

Wario, Yoshi, Peach, and DK - Through scaling to the above for being Star Children

Samus - With the powers granted to her in Joey and Samus, she was able to coumter a white hole that was doing significant damage to the universe. Not enough to be universal though. Also likely a one-time power-up.

Possibly Kirby - Magolor's fight had vague Galaxies in the background and it eventually crumbles due to his demise. Master Crown is OP. The new boss from Star Allies can utilize the Master Crown to effect the battlefield which has a couple galaxies in the background and his destruction leada to those galaxies being nowhere in sight afterwards. He's also MFTL+ and hax as all heck.

Solar System Busters

Mario/Luigi/Bowser... again - This one has more credibility due to multiple calcs done on Vs Battle wiki, Narutoforums, and many more.

Probably Bowser Jr. - Was a hindrance to Galaxy Mario and Luigu and gave them some opposition to slow them down. Also had machines powered by Grand Stars, which are Cosmic level artifacts

Peach, Yoshi, Wario, and DK - Scaling to the other Star Children above

Cloud - Supernova. Nuff said.

Probably the Kirby Trio - Dark Nebula vaguely released energy that destroyed the celestial bodies in the background. Drawcia also turned a galaxy into paint with time and questionably Claycia as well. Also MFTL+

Star Busters

Bayonetta - Killed people who could manipulate the Sun according to her lore. Also FTL+ with time hax.

Pac-Man (Composite) - Ghostly Adventure Pac reaches Planet-Star and is MFTL+ as well as has a vehicle that can travel through time based on sheer speed.

Star Fox Trio - If Starlink is used, they can generate and survive black holes being used on them, which given their size would likely net around these levels of energy. Also MFTL+ and kinda hax Arwings/Wolfens

Maybe Sonic - His Golden Knight form from a questionably canon game shows the main villain warp a world which contained a Sun in it. Also, Infinite's famous dwarf star which is an outlier in base but maybe usable for Super.

Maybe Yoshi - Galaxy would peg his speeds at those above Mario and Luigi's so, MFTL+ probably. And while not as strong as Mario and Luigi, he DID turn Raphael the Raven into a star, which even if it was Kamek's magic, should still scale.

Maybe Captain Olimar - Only with his ship which may be FTL and was said to have a weapons capable of piercing stars.

Planet Busters

Kirby- Obviously.

Meta Knight - Scales to Kirby

Dedede- See above

Mewtwo -Nuked the planet as Shadow Mewtwo and helped hold back that thing in Super Mystery Dungeon that waa makimg the planet steer out of orbit or something? Calculated to be likely in the planet level range as Mega Mewtwo Y. Sub-Relativistic as well and lolmindhax.

Super Sonic - Scales to Dark Gaia who was calculated to be in this range, though it later got revised to be Small Planet level. However, he should scale to the things in Adventure, where planet busting lasers existed and Shadow warped the Ark or whatever before it could destroy the planet. Also maybe MFTL+

Megaman - Lots of scaling here. Really don't feel like going into how many calcs he has. Also MFTL+ and haxxy.

Link - In BotW, he can compete with Ganon, who was responsible for pulling the Moon closer to the planet in the event of a Blood Moon. Also maybe FTL based on attacking faster than the light of a search light on some Guardian tech could reach the ground.

Zelda - Only with Triforce.

Ganondorf - As Dark Beast Ganon/Calamity Ganon

Possibly Fox McCloud - FTL and potential planet busting weapons in an Arwing only.

Falco - See above.

Wolf - See above the "see above".

Samus - What can I say that hasn't already been said. Probably FTL as well and haxxy.

Villager - Possibly this level due to being in possession of the Complete Triforce.

Moon Busters

Wario - Shake King dispersing a huge storm cloud was calculated to be at this level. Later got reevaluated to be Small Planet+ level but... Not too sure about that. Even so, just move him to the bottom of the planet busters. MHS

Continental/Life Wipers

Star Fox Trio - In Arwings/Wolfens; possibly without them since they can tank their weapons which can damage these as well as can tank their destruction in some cases.

Corrin - As a dragon, really. Not tok knowledgeable on FE but, apparently wanted to raze the surface of the planet or something. All FE characrer can dodge natural lightning as well, which makes them MHS.

Robin - ONLY with Grima, who's in a simlar situation to the one above.

Probably Ike - Slayed people who were similar in power to the two above.

Roy, maybe - His sword could seal people with similar powers to the ones above

Maybe Marth - Power only really applies to Dragons though.

Link - As Fierce Deity. The Moon grazed the surface of the world and he scales to Majora who would cause it.

Country Levelers
Donkey Kong - Famous Moon Punch yielded these results. Also MHS+

Diddy Kong - Did the same thing as Donkey Kong, but with his head.

Likely base Mewtwo - Scales to the Legendary Birds which have feats calculated to be on this level

Island Busters

The entire cast of Mario - The RPGs have calcs like Dark Bowser creating a hurricane which yielded an energy output in the gigatons of TNT. Later said it may even be country level, but hasn't been evaluated yet. Mario characters are also haxxy as heck.

Link - Ganondorf busted an island in Wind Waker off-screen, which isbone of the best feats this series has. The calc that put them at Country level has a few problems according to a few experts, which is why I didn't put them higher.

Ganondorf - See above.

Ryu - One of the few characters capable of competing with Akuma, who sunk an Island, I believe.

Pit - His ultimate weapon was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also MFTL+

Palutena - Should scale to Pit

Dark Pit - See above.

Charizard - Has quite a few calulations goimg for him. In the manga him and the other starters all have a feat that seperated amongst them, was calculated in the gigatons.

Maybe Greninja - Some argue all starters should scales to each other. That's about all he has going for him last I checked

Mewtwo - In base form, was able to cause an explosion similar in size to the island he was on.

City Levelers

Lucario -Calcs have been down for lesser Pokémon that yielded results around this range. Also MHS+

Pac-Man - Regular Pac-Man from the games can be given this level due to someone creating a storm; also MHS+

Banjo & Kazooie - Can reach this level via equipment. Also hypersonic or something.

Maybe Pikachu - It's beaten plenty of Legendaries and other Pokémon. Could contend with Lucario.

More likely Greninja - Should at least be around this level in terms of stats.

Most Mario characters - Super Mario World's castle punt yielded energy in the megatons of TNT and Kamek created a storm cloud that was calculated to be in the high megatons.

Captain Falcon - One of his feats from the anime was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also in the hypersonic range, I believe.

Sonic - In base, he could beat Perfect Chaos by himself, who had a city level area of effect. Also MHS+ at the least to possibly FTL.

Town Levelers

Jigglypuff - Scales to the lowest 'mon who aren't the babies, which have feats at this level. Maybe hypersonic.

Maybe Ivysaur - See above

Lucas - Can beat Pokey who has a town level feat, apparently. Also is labeled as the speed of light in terms of combat speed.

Banjo & Kazooie - Solidly here as well as supersonic-hypersonic in speed.

Possibly Star Fox Trio - Vaporizing range can possibly be on this tier

City Block Levelers
Star Fox Trio - Fox, Wolf, and Falco have tanked their Arwing/Wolfen explosions, can tank attacks from their weapons in multiplayer modes (as well as Aparoid weapons for Fox in the story). Aparoids weaponry and Fox's weapons can defeat starfighters through vaporizing them and his weapons in general seem to vaporize sections of metal in the Aparoids and their tech. Vaporizing steel alone requires 62 billion joules of energy per cubic meter, which is solidly in this tier. Also possibly FTL reactions from piloting their vehicles at maximum velocities and reacting to obstacles in their way as well as Fox reacting to and outrunning a Wolfen's laser fire in an Assault cinematic and a plasma bolt, which can tag hypersonic vehicles and seem to run on the same power source as the Arwing's tech.

Solid Snake - Tanked microwave radiation which I believe yielded these results amongst other things.

Lucina - Certain low-tier spells in the series have been calculated to yield these results.

Building Levelers
Mr. Game and Watch - Apparently has feats that put him in the Large Building level and Hypersonic+ range.

Pichu - Believe it or not, Magikarp, the most pathetic Pokémon have a KE calculated to be Small Building level due to their absurdly high jumps. Every pokémon should scale to this.

Squirtle - See above.

Ice Climbers - Superhuman in speed and can harm polar bears who can bring down the building-sized mountain in one stomp.

Wall Breakers

Little Mac - Wall+ level and Subsonic apparently. Close enough to almost be Small Building, but not quite there.

Possibly Wii Fit Trainer - I'm being highly generous to her/him.

Maybe Villager - Can survive axes to the face amongst other things

Duck Hunt - Utilises gunfire which could make them anywhere from subsonic to supersonic, and said gunfire can possibly make them this level. Dogs are also above humans in many areas and birds are among the fastest animals.

Literally just a human

Wii Fit Trainer - We all know why.

Villager -Probably around this level

Possibly Duck Hunt - Gunfire may not be that potent.

Ant tier

Olimar - We all know his canon size. White Pikmin are poison though and with enough Pikmin, can possibly be a threat.

Literally just a toy

R.O.B. - Is literally a toy that came with a videogame.

 

[Zinith]

Spoiler: Updated List after some new findings for verses and including current DLC characters

Multiversals

Hero - The Luminary scales to Yggsdrasil because of fighting a being who was >= them and winning, and they greated the DQ multiverse. Also MFTL+ and pretty hax.
Archie Sonic (Non-Canon)
Paper Mario (still a form of Mario; non-canon)
Archie Megaman (Non-Canon)
Possibly Simon and Ricther Belmont - Castlevania has got some weird dimensional stuff going on. Also potential infinite speed due to dodging "instantaneous attacks", but if not, MFTL+

Universals
Possibly Joker - Yaldaboath or whatever is a powerful god that did some potential universal shenanigans. If not this, he's still Galaxy and MFTL+ plus hax as heck.

Shulk - Easily seen at the end of his game. Also FTL due to traveling between planets quickly and has precognition as well as some other abilties that increase his stats.

Ness - He held back a universe buster, even if Paula or whatever is the one who ended it. He became one with the world our sonething like that and gained a semi-omnipresence. Also has psychic abilities and other hax.

Rosalina w/ Luma - She's questionably able to warp a universe but should still be fairly powerful otherwise (especially since SMG was calculated to have Solar System to Galaxy level feats, with the Lumas being able to turn into such celestial bodies). However, she DID use her magic to shield Mario and Peach from the explosion. One could infer she could convert that magical energy into an attack. Either way, she's MFTL+ due to consistent Mario Party feats on this level as well as her Observatory that she directly controls being able to traverae the universe and reach the center of it in a quick timeframe. There's also the fact she can summon her Lumas and teleport along with many other abilities including possesion in the form of her astral projection, telekinesis, size manipulation, duplication with a Dpuvle Cherry, and Gravity Manipulation.

Bowser - While not universal in oower without artifacts, he DOES have the durability to survive such an event. This is shown and supported by Galaxy 1's ending and the Prima Guide, which was made under Nintendo's watchful eye, which states he was "shaken from narrowly avoiding a cruel fate" or something along those lines, and he had no protection from Rosalina either. This durability is something a few characters can hope to get by, and he's quite haxxy himself, being able to Time Travel, manipulate Space, Seal other beings, Petrify them to stone, and mant others. With the Grand Stars, he should easily be close enough to this level to justify it as a Grand Star is what powered hus machine before it collapsed without its power and would have destroyed the universe.

Sonic - Really only through his Darkspine form, which is questionably canon. Warped worlds the size of universes, I believe.

Megaman - Only if it's .EXE, however. Destroyed the digital world which was the size of a universe. MFTL+

I guess Mario, Luigi, Bowser Jr., Peach, and maybe Wario? If you want to scale them to Bowser for being able to consistently harm him. All three should also be MFTL+ since Bowser someone intercepted two ships in the series capable of moving that fast and in general have a few FTL feats throughout the many games

Galaxy Busters

Mario, Bowser, Luigi - Mario Galaxy calcs and all. Pretty debatable though. So note that these are iffy.

Samus - With the powers granted to her in Joey and Samus, she was able to coumter a white hole that was doing significant damage to the universe. Not enough to be universal though. Also likely a one-time power-up.

Possibly Kirby - Magolor's fight had vague Galaxies in the background and it eventually crumbles due to his demise. Master Crown is OP. The new boss from Star Allies can utilize the Master Crown to effect the battlefield which has a couple galaxies in the background and his destruction leada to those galaxies being nowhere in sight afterwards. He's also MFTL+ and hax as all heck.

Solar System Busters

Mario/Luigi/Bowser... again - This one has more credibility due to multiple calcs done on Vs Battle wiki, Narutoforums, and many more.

Probably Bowser Jr. - Was a hindrance to Galaxy Mario and Luigu and gave them some opposition to slow them down. Also had machines powered by Grand Stars, which are Cosmic level artifacts

Questionably Peach - Magic should scale to Bowser's for being his direct counter and she tanked the black hole collapse at the end of Galaxy 2 which was calculated to yield this amount of energy.

Cloud - Supernova. Nuff said.

Probably the Kirby Trio - Dark Nebula vaguely released energy that destroyed the celestial bodies in the background. Drawcia also turned a galaxy into paint with time and questionably Claycia as well. Also MFTL+

Star Busters

Bayonetta - Killed people who could manipulate the Sun according to her lore. Also FTL+ with time hax.

Star Fox Trio - If Starlink is used, they can generate and survive black holes being used on them, which given their size would likely net around these levels of energy. Also MFTL+ and kinda hax Arwings/Wolfens

Maybe Sonic - His Golden Knight form from a questionably canon game shows the main villain warp a world which contained a Sun in it. Also, Infinite's famous dwarf star which is an outlier in base but maybe usable for Super.

Maybe Yoshi - Galaxy would peg his speeds at those above Mario and Luigi's so, MFTL+ probably. And while not as strong as Mario and Luigi, he DID turn Raphael the Raven into a star, which even if it was Kamek's magic, should still scale.

Maybe Captain Olimar - Only with his ship which may be FTL and was said to have a weapons capable of piercing stars.

Planet Busters

Kirby- Obviously.

Meta Knight - Scales to Kirby

Dedede- See above

Mewtwo -Nuked the planet as Shadow Mewtwo and helped hold back that thing in Super Mystery Dungeon that waa makimg the planet steer out of orbit or something? Calculated to be likely in the planet level range as Mega Mewtwo Y. Sub-Relativistic as well and lolmindhax.

Super Sonic - Scales to Dark Gaia who was calculated to be in this range, though it later got revised to be Small Planet level. However, he should scale to the things in Adventure, where planet busting lasers existed and Shadow warped the Ark or whatever before it could destroy the planet. Also maybe MFTL+

Megaman - Lots of scaling here. Really don't feel like going into how many calcs he has. Also MFTL+ and haxxy.

Link - In BotW, he can compete with Ganon, who was responsible for pulling the Moon closer to the planet in the event of a Blood Moon. Also maybe FTL based on attacking faster than the light of a search light on some Guardian tech could reach the ground.

Zelda - Only with Triforce.

Ganondorf - As Dark Beast Ganon/Calamity Ganon

Possibly Fox McCloud - FTL and potential planet busting weapons in an Arwing only.

Falco - See above.

Wolf - See above the "see above".

Samus - What can I say that hasn't already been said. Probably FTL as well and haxxy.

Villager - Possibly this level due to being in possession of the Complete Triforce.

Moon Busters

Wario - Shake King dispersing a huge storm cloud was calculated to be at this level. Later got reevaluated to be Small Planet+ level but... Not too sure about that. Even so, just move him to the bottom of the planet busters. MHS

Continental/Life Wipers

Star Fox Trio - In Arwings/Wolfens; possibly without them since they can tank their weapons which can damage these as well as can tank their destruction in some cases.

Corrin - As a dragon, really. Not tok knowledgeable on FE but, apparently wanted to raze the surface of the planet or something. All FE characrer can dodge natural lightning as well, which makes them MHS.

Robin - ONLY with Grima, who's in a simlar situation to the one above.

Probably Ike - Slayed people who were similar in power to the two above.

Roy, maybe - His sword could seal people with similar powers to the ones above

Maybe Marth - Power only really applies to Dragons though.

Link - As Fierce Deity. The Moon grazed the surface of the world and he scales to Majora who would cause it.

Country Levelers
Donkey Kong - Famous Moon Punch yielded these results. Also MHS+

Diddy Kong - Did the same thing as Donkey Kong, but with his head.

Likely base Mewtwo - Scales to the Legendary Birds which have feats calculated to be on this level

Island Busters

The entire cast of Mario - The RPGs have calcs like Dark Bowser creating a hurricane which yielded an energy output in the gigatons of TNT. Later said it may even be country level, but hasn't been evaluated yet. Mario characters are also haxxy as heck.

Link - Ganondorf busted an island in Wind Waker off-screen, which isbone of the best feats this series has. The calc that put them at Country level has a few problems according to a few experts, which is why I didn't put them higher.

Ganondorf - See above.

Ryu - One of the few characters capable of competing with Akuma, who sunk an Island, I believe.

Pit - His ultimate weapon was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also MFTL+

Palutena - Should scale to Pit

Dark Pit - See above.

Charizard - Has quite a few calulations goimg for him. In the manga him and the other starters all have a feat that seperated amongst them, was calculated in the gigatons.

Maybe Greninja - Some argue all starters should scales to each other. That's about all he has going for him last I checked

Mewtwo - In base form, was able to cause an explosion similar in size to the island he was on.

City Levelers

Lucario -Calcs have been down for lesser Pokémon that yielded results around this range. Also MHS+

Banjo & Kazooie - Can reach this level via equipment. Also hypersonic or something.

Maybe Pikachu - It's beaten plenty of Legendaries and other Pokémon. Could contend with Lucario.

More likely Greninja - Should at least be around this level in terms of stats.

Most Mario characters - Super Mario World's castle punt yielded energy in the megatons of TNT and Kamek created a storm cloud that was calculated to be in the high megatons.

Captain Falcon - One of his feats from the anime was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also in the hypersonic range, I believe.

Sonic - In base, he could beat Perfect Chaos by himself, who had a city level area of effect. Also MHS+ at the least to possibly FTL.

Town Levelers

Jigglypuff - Scales to the lowest 'mon who aren't the babies, which have feats at this level. Maybe hypersonic.

Maybe Ivysaur - See above

Lucas - Can beat Pokey who has a town level feat, apparently. Also is labeled as the speed of light in terms of combat speed.

Banjo & Kazooie - Solidly here as well as supersonic-hypersonic in speed.

Possibly Star Fox Trio - Vaporizing range can possibly be on this tier

City Block Levelers
Star Fox Trio - Fox, Wolf, and Falco have tanked their Arwing/Wolfen explosions, can tank attacks from their weapons in multiplayer modes (as well as Aparoid weapons for Fox in the story). Aparoids weaponry and Fox's weapons can defeat starfighters through vaporizing them and his weapons in general seem to vaporize sections of metal in the Aparoids and their tech. Vaporizing steel alone requires 62 billion joules of energy per cubic meter, which is solidly in this tier. Also possibly FTL reactions from piloting their vehicles at maximum velocities and reacting to obstacles in their way as well as Fox reacting to and outrunning a Wolfen's laser fire in an Assault cinematic and a plasma bolt, which can tag hypersonic vehicles and seem to run on the same power source as the Arwing's tech.

Solid Snake - Tanked microwave radiation which I believe yielded these results amongst other things.

Lucina - Certain low-tier spells in the series have been calculated to yield these results.

Building Levelers
Mr. Game and Watch - Apparently has feats that put him in the Large Building level and Hypersonic+ range.

Pichu - Believe it or not, Magikarp, the most pathetic Pokémon have a KE calculated to be Small Building level due to their absurdly high jumps. Every pokémon should scale to this.

Squirtle - See above.

Ice Climbers - Superhuman in speed and can harm polar bears who can bring down the building-sized mountain in one stomp.

Wall Breakers

Little Mac - Wall+ level and Subsonic apparently. Close enough to almost be Small Building, but not quite there.

Possibly Wii Fit Trainer - I'm being highly generous to her/him.

Maybe Villager - Can survive axes to the face amongst other things

Duck Hunt - Utilises gunfire which could make them anywhere from subsonic to supersonic, and said gunfire can possibly make them this level. Dogs are also above humans in many areas and birds are among the fastest animals.

Literally just a human

Wii Fit Trainer - We all know why.

Villager -Probably around this level

Possibly Duck Hunt - Gunfire may not be that potent.

Ant tier

Olimar - We all know his canon size. White Pikmin are poison though and with enough Pikmin, can possibly be a threat.

Literally just a toy

R.O.B. - Is literally a toy that came with a videogame.

Underselling my boi there...

Can I raise Crafted World up? Yoshi was able to beat Baby Bowser when powered up by Kamek's wish on the Sundream Stone. I don't exactly remember the text, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of "all-powerful" and it seems similar to the Dream Stone from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team. Does Yoshi now scale to that?

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Underselling my boi there...

Can I raise Crafted World up? Yoshi was able to beat Baby Bowser when powered up by Kamek's wish on the Sundream Stone. I don't exactly remember the text, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of "all-powerful" and it seems similar to the Dream Stone from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team. Does Yoshi now scale to that?

Don't worry. I put him with the rest of the Mario cast in their respective tiers now.

As for the Dream Stone? Eh. It could be possibly since it makes dreams and wishes come true, but I wouldn't be too sure on that. If true, it could make Mario and Luigi beating Dreamy Bowser in base more consistent, though.

 

[ganondorf_22]

This thread is too long. Shame on you all.

 

[SDFox]

 

[monzer]

Someone said that King Dedede and Meta Knight scale to kirby? Well first off.....
Practically every "fight" kirby has in the series with dedede is completely one sided with dedede completely out of it and kirby seemingly unaffected. Plus, whenever a big threat like nightmare shows up, dedede just throws kirby towards the threat without actually engaging with the enemy.

Dedede and Kirby are canonically rivals. Dedede was strong enough that he was seen as a threat to Sectonia who Kirby wasn’t able to beat by himself. In Kirby 64 Dedede breaks stuff Kirby can’t. In Triple Deluxe Dedede goes off on his own adventure and fights bosses that are direct upgrades of the ones that Kirby fought. In Return to Dreamland he’s one of the “4 heroes” who killed Magolor. In Star Allies Kirby needed his help to beat Void Termina. Not to mention that every time he’s playable he’s equal to Kirby. Dedede throwing Kirby at nightmare means nothing because Kirby had a powerup (the Star rod). In their base forms they’re pretty equal. Not fighting Nightmare doesn’t invalidate his feats against Termina and Magolor, both of which are universal threats and superior to Nightmare.

Meta Knight is closer don't get me wrongm but whenever kirby fights meta knight he uses a sword(meta knight's thing) and still manages to beat him. So it's fairer to say that kirby and meta knight are equal in terms of swordsmanship alone, not actual power. Which is makes kirby about as skilled a sword fighter as the FE characters. Meta Knight is really powerful though. He managed to defeat Galacta Knight, the most powerful warrior in the galaxy. So the fact that kirby outclasses him in his speciality says something.

>Meta Knight is closer to Kirby than Dedede

You’re aware that in Triple Deluxe Dedede defeated a clone of Meta Knight who canonically beat the real Meta Knight right?

>Kirby using a sword means that he’s holding back somehow

Sword is a really common powerup. It’s fair to say that Kirby is experienced with sword stuff and is skilled. Plus when Meta Knight gives Kirby the sword he’s not suppressing him. He’s making it a fair fight by making sure they both have the same weapon. Also Meta Knight doesn’t even really lose to Kirby, it’s just that his mask breaks so he hides. Meta Knight has the same feats as Dedede against Termina and Magolor. Meta Knight also defeated Dark Matter, who Kirby needed a power up to kill.

Kirby was powerful enough to survive being inside a black hole during an extended period of time at only a tenth of his power. He was able to survive an entire planet blowing up in his face without so much as a scratch, and he even held back part of the universe during that one game i forget the name of. He also must have at least light speed reaction times to pilot the warp star and react to attacks during boss fights or avoiding obstacles.

There's also the fact that any character without a means to travel dimensions will lose to kirby as soon as their swallows and sent to the pocket dimension in his stomach, so there's that.

These are actually all lower tiered feats for Kirby. As of Star Allies he’s multi-Galaxy/Universal, as Void Termina was going to destroy the universe. Dedede and Meta Knight are also on this level as they scale to Termina and Kirby.

As for the Dream Stone? Eh. It could be possibly since it makes dreams and wishes come true, but I wouldn't be too sure on that. If true, it could make Mario and Luigi beating Dreamy Bowser in base more consistent, though

Dream Stone is no joke. Dreams are universes in the Mario Multiverse and the dream stone stores dreams from over a year long period. That’s a lot of dreams/universes.

View attachment 233779

Just off the top of my head, Yoshi and Wario should be 2C, and the Mario cast in 2A should be in 1B. Read my long post on higher end Mario feats.

Sonic and Ness are too high. Ness didn’t do anything against Gygas. Gygas essentially lost to a spirit bomb sort of thing. Sonic villains have had time warp stuff but I don’t recall them ever actually using universal attacks against Sonic.

Zelda characters’ feats are super questionable and probably shouldn’t be counted.

Kirby Characters should be in 3B/3A since they beat Void Termina, who was going to destroy the universe.

Piranha plant should be higher since there’s some pretty powerful types of Piranha plants. They’re able to go against lower end versions of Mario. If we use Dino/Peewee Piranha, they can scale to higher end versions of Mario.

I think most of this list was taken from vs wiki, which isn’t a trustworthy source. Vs wiki can be good to find feats but they overrate or underrate characters often.

 

[Sebas22]

Dedede and Kirby are canonically rivals. Dedede was strong enough that he was seen as a threat to Sectonia who Kirby wasn’t able to beat by himself. In Kirby 64 Dedede breaks stuff Kirby can’t. In Triple Deluxe Dedede goes off on his own adventure and fights bosses that are direct upgrades of the ones that Kirby fought. In Return to Dreamland he’s one of the “4 heroes” who killed Magolor. In Star Allies Kirby needed his help to beat Void Termina. Not to mention that every time he’s playable he’s equal to Kirby. Dedede throwing Kirby at nightmare means nothing because Kirby had a powerup (the Star rod). In their base forms they’re pretty equal. Not fighting Nightmare doesn’t invalidate his feats against Termina and Magolor, both of which are universal threats and superior to Nightmare.

I'm not against Dedede or anything, but there are a few points here that feel kinda off.
- Dedede was seen as threat to Sectonia
Does this get mentioned anywhere in game? As far as I know Sectonia had no idea who Dedede was. He just ordered Taranza to kidnap the "Hero of Dreamland", and he had no idea who that was. Dedede got involved because Taranza brought him instead of Kirby. If you mean the actual fight, Dedede's role was firing a cannon. Which probably any of the flower people could do it too. Dedede just happened to be there. Also, the upgraded bosses he fights in Dedede Tour, Kirby fights them and Sectonia Soul in the True Arena.

- In Star Allies Kirby needed his help to beat Void Termina.
You can bring three Parasol Dee friends to fight Void Termina if you want. Does this mean all the friends/Helpers/Star Allies are on a similar level to Kirby? I hope so. Anyways, Dedede can be replaced. BUT, if you mean the last sequence where Kirby goes full Kingdom Hearts "My friends are my power!!!" and summons the ghosts of everyone to attack Void Termina, this is just my take on it, that move was overkill. A ghost or two less, Void would still explode.

- Dedede throwing Kirby at nightmare means nothing because Kirby had a powerup (the Star rod). In their base forms they’re pretty equal.
The problem here is that Dedede had the Star Rod before Kirby arrived at the Fountain of Dreams. He doesn't face Nightmare despite having the advantage. Instead, he seals him in the fountain and that messes up with the dreams of all Dreamland's inhabitants. All because he's afraid. Kirby also gets startled when Nightmare is released, but once they're face to orb, Kirby gets serious.

I think Kirby is a little tiny bit superior to Dedede.

 

[Ridley64]

View attachment 233779

How do you make that?

 

[SDFox]

Just off the top of my head, Yoshi and Wario should be 2C, and the Mario cast in 2A should be in 1B. Read my long post on higher end Mario feats.
Sonic and Ness are too high. Ness didn’t do anything against Gygas. Gygas essentially lost to a spirit bomb sort of thing. Sonic villains have had time warp stuff but I don’t recall them ever actually using universal attacks against Sonic.
Zelda characters’ feats are super questionable and probably shouldn’t be counted.
Kirby Characters should be in 3B/3A since they beat Void Termina, who was going to destroy the universe.
Piranha plant should be higher since there’s some pretty powerful types of Piranha plants. They’re able to go against lower end versions of Mario. If we use Dino/Peewee Piranha, they can scale to higher end versions of Mario.
I think most of this list was taken from vs wiki, which isn’t a trustworthy source. Vs wiki can be good to find feats but they overrate or underrate characters often.

Yes most of this was taken from vs wiki, help me build this tier list correctly if vs wiki isn't super trustworthy.
I'm going to use vs wiki as the primary source, if you can prove your statements then I will update the tier list according to what you say.
Also i'm still using vs wiki tiers, that should make things simple and easy to read.

Sonic:
Sonic on vs wiki is stated to have defeated 4 2C beings, Egg salamader, Egg Wizard, Solaris, and Time eater. Admittedly on his profile it's stated at a 'possible 2C'
Solaris by himself seems to justify his 2C rating, so i'm curious as to why you think sonic isn't 2C.

Mario
What the heck gets Mario cast to 1B?

What in the world gets yoshi and wario all the way up to 2C?
(I know you said read your post, is it possible that you could link me your post or just like DM it to me or something?)

Ness did damage Giygas, even if Ness wasent able to kill him, shouldn't that put him equal to Giygas' durabillity?

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

To be fair, Sonic's universal and multiversal enemies, contextually and canonically, were actually superior to Super Sonic on his lonesome. Egg Wizard would've beat Blaze and Sonic if not for Marine's intervention, they couldn't actually defeat the physical forn of Solaris and Solaris itself was GOING to consume all of time, but it wasn't doing so actively from what I recall and even then seems like only a gradual hax than physical DC. Also, Sonic was empowered by maximum amounts of positive energy from his friends plus Elise who had a special connection with the Emeralds capable of producing miracles. For Wizard, he and Blaze combined the energies of the Sol and Chaos Emeralds to power up. Time Eater is just hax and he also had his friend's positive energies backing him up then as well.

All that being said, it's clearly not a standard measurment of a Super form's power. At worst, they're large planet-star, maybe MSS via one single tech feat but eh.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Also, Kirby's stats from VBW shouldn't be relied upon.

They have him listed as having resistance to existence erasure but the feat they reference is vague as ****. Not to mention Ghost Kirby's low godly regen being from a dubiously canon game as it is.

As for stats? Good luck. He's all over the place like Mario and most feats involving "stars" given the size we've seen from "stars" in Kirby usually are very tiny. You can say the same for Mario as well, but at leaat Mario's cosmology us more consistent in showing the actual sizes of celestial bodies..

This isn't to be confused with me saying "Well Kirby's tiny so everything else must be tiny" because that's a dumb argument. 8 inches isn't THAT small, and wouldn't really effect the measurements of solar/celestial bodies all that much. He's a fifth of a whole meter in terms of height. Put it like that and it really doesn't change up the numbers much.

 

[Wigglerman]

Where are people getting that Pokemon Trainer can use ANY Pokemon? Is there evidence to provide this? To my knowledge, even in Pokemon lore, Red hasn't caught every single Pokemon known. If we go by what he can do in Smash, he has three Pokemon...none of which are all that powerful in the grand scheme of things. I also agree that Trainer himself isn't anything special. He's just a kid who will get demolished and is an easy target as Pokemon tend to do poorly without trainer instruction, unless trained specifically to operate without much of the trainer's aid (As seen by some trainers in Pokemon lore. Some don't even command their Pokemon unless needed. Either due to 'special bonds' or the expected 'psychics' who communicate telepathically but that's something different entirely).

Smash Wise, Kirby seems to just be an overall powerhouse in a tiny body. Most of his feats in his own canon would dwarf those of anyone else in the line up. Little guy is a practically a cosmic level deity.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

There are plenty cosmic level deities in Smash. All things considered, Kirby is Top 10 at best and Top 20 at worst, I believe.

 

[SDFox]

Where are people getting that Pokemon Trainer can use ANY Pokemon? Is there evidence to provide this?

So this is kinda iffy why I did this but:

The pokemon trainer in smash is obviously Red (and green) from the original games. He uses the original starters and uses the fireRed design.
As of gold and silver Red is the strongest trainer in all of Kanto. This is directly in cannon.
Pokemon origins is an anime directly based off of red and blue. It uses his firered design and features only locations from the games.
In the last episode of the pokemon origins anime its flat out stated that Red, after defeating blue, has not only become champion of the region, but has become the strongest trainer in all of kanto.
It's also stated that hes caught all 149 pokemon in the kanto region, this includes the legendary bird, and as of the ending of that episode, mewtwo.
Mewtwo is around island or so in base.
Battle rules state pokemon trainers are allowed to fight with just their pokemon without risk to themselves.
Therefore Red should scale to base mewtwo.

 

[Wigglerman]

So this is kinda iffy why I did this but:

The pokemon trainer in smash is obviously Red (and green) from the original games. He uses the original starters and uses the fireRed design.
As of gold and silver Red is the strongest trainer in all of Kanto. This is directly in cannon.
Pokemon origins is an anime directly based off of red and blue. It uses his firered design and features only locations from the games.
In the last episode of the pokemon origins anime its flat out stated that Red, after defeating blue, has not only become champion of the region, but has become the strongest trainer in all of kanto.
It's also stated that hes caught all 149 pokemon in the kanto region, this includes the legendary bird, and as of the ending of that episode, mewtwo.
Mewtwo is around island or so in base.
Battle rules state pokemon trainers are allowed to fight with just their pokemon without risk to themselves.
Therefore Red should scale to base mewtwo.

I guess this question is dubious at best. The question should be 'which smash character is stronger cannonically'. Because the question sounds like who is just stronger in general based on their feats in Smash itself.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Canonically, the strongest is likely the Hero or the Belmonts.

If you consider Paper Mario another version of Mario and not non-canon, then Paper Mario, too.

After them, It's usually Ness, Shulk, Joker, maybe Kirby, maybe Mario characters, and Cloud.

That's around the general top 10-20

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

If Ghostly Adventures is used, Pac-Man legit is up there with Mega Man, Samus, Sonic, and Bayonetta in terms of stats at his best.

 

[monzer]

I'm not against Dedede or anything, but there are a few points here that feel kinda off.
- Dedede was seen as a threat to Sectonia
Does this get mentioned anywhere in game? As far as I know Sectonia had no idea who Dedede was. He just ordered Taranza to kidnap the "Hero of Dreamland", and he had no idea who that was. Dedede got involved because Taranza brought him instead of Kirby. If you mean the actual fight, Dedede's role was firing a cannon. Which probably any of the flower people could do it too. Dedede just happened to be there. Also, the upgraded bosses he fights in Dedede Tour, Kirby fights them and Sectonia Soul in the True Arena.

Yes. Taranza mistook Dedede as the hero of dreamland. Dedede was strong enough to be mistaken for Kirby. "The hero of dreamland" was a threat to Sectonia and Dedede was strong enough to be mistaken for it. Also Dedede knocked Kirby out of Sectonia's grasp during the fight which is pretty major considered how Kirby couldn't break out himself. The game literally says that they would've lost if not for Dedede. This is the weakest point I made but it still holds.

- In Star Allies Kirby needed his help to beat Void Termina.
You can bring three Parasol Dee friends to fight Void Termina if you want. Does this mean all the friends/Helpers/Star Allies are on a similar level to Kirby? I hope so. Anyways, Dedede can be replaced. BUT, if you mean the last sequence where Kirby goes full Kingdom Hearts "My friends are my power!!!" and summons the ghosts of everyone to attack Void Termina, this is just my take on it, that move was overkill. A ghost or two less, Void would still explode.

There's nothing that implies that it was overkill. Also even if it was overkill, that would just mean that the ghosts are even stronger (which would help my case). All the star allies are relative to Kirby since they canonically help him fight.

- Dedede throwing Kirby at nightmare means nothing because Kirby had a powerup (the Star rod). In their base forms they’re pretty equal.
The problem here is that Dedede had the Star Rod before Kirby arrived at the Fountain of Dreams. He doesn't face Nightmare despite having the advantage. Instead, he seals him in the fountain and that messes up with the dreams of all Dreamland's inhabitants. All because he's afraid. Kirby also gets startled when Nightmare is released, but once they're face to orb, Kirby gets serious.

I think Kirby is a little tiny bit superior to Dedede.

First of all Dedede can't use the star rod for all we know. We never see him using it to it's safe to assume that only Kirby can really use it as a weapon. Also Dedede is lazy and doesn't like to do things himself (unless it's fighting Kirby). It makes perfect sense that he would take the easy way out and seal Nightmare rather than dealing with a lengthy and dangerous fight.

Yes most of this was taken from vs wiki, help me build this tier list correctly if vs wiki isn't super trustworthy.
I'm going to use vs wiki as the primary source, if you can prove your statements then I will update the tier list according to what you say.
Also i'm still using vs wiki tiers, that should make things simple and easy to read.

No you can't just use vs wiki as the primary source since it is by definition a secondary source. Also vs wiki has the burden of proof. I don't have to prove them wrong, they have to prove themselves correct with their statements. Look at the feats that vs wiki links and see if they make sense or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Sonic:
Sonic on vs wiki is stated to have defeated 4 2C beings, Egg salamader, Egg Wizard, Solaris, and Time eater. Admittedly on his profile it's stated at a 'possible 2C'
Solaris by himself seems to justify his 2C rating, so i'm curious as to why you think sonic isn't 2C.

As Shyy_Guy595 explained, those bosses are either doing it via hax rather than raw power, and Sonic always need "extra" things to beat him. He wasn't able to do them on his own. Not everyone with time manipulation is 2C.

Mario
What the heck gets Mario cast to 1B?

What in the world gets yoshi and wario all the way up to 2C?
(I know you said read your post, is it possible that you could link me your post or just like DM it to me or something?)

My post is at the bottom of page 171 in this thread.

Ness did damage Giygas, even if Ness wasent able to kill him, shouldn't that put him equal to Giygas' durabillity?

RPGs tend to balance out characters to make certain fights more even. You have to prove that Ness damages Giygas in canon and not just with game mechanics.

 

[Voodoo7995]

If we are talking fighters... I think its kirby... But if its any character to ever be mentioned in smash lore, then its the child which owns all the toys of the fighters...

He's the strongest in that he's the only reason that smash exists, & he's both master hand and crazy hand... So...