Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[SuperMar10Main3]

Straight up Cloud!
Forget bayo
Forget zss
Forget Mewtwo


Puff is a close second.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

FE character can tank magic attacks that have been calculated to have kilotons of energy output, not mention being able to dodge attacks that utilize lightning at best.

And their swords and blessings allow them to somehow defeat deities comparable to one that flooded the world expect for a single continent. It gives him the sufficent attack potency to harm characters with durability to survive attacks that can graze the earth's surface.

At least, this is what I gather

It's weird how people suddenly bring up this idea that someone can 'dodge lightning' when we've all played that real-time video game where a boss calls down lightning during the fight and all you have to do to avoid it is to just never stop moving and keep dodge-rolling or whatever. Essentially, you aren't dodging at the speed of lightning, you're just moving around too much for the caster to aim at you properly. Batman doesn't dodge bullets, he just watches where the gunman is aiming.

 

[12cheeper]

Personally, I was interpreting the Dragon Veins to be representations of how Corrin's dragon powers manifest themselves. Only the characters with Dragon blood can activate them, and they cause such a wide range of effects, from changing the weather patterns to literally shifting the earth itself. Seems like deific power to me, though I can see discounting it since Corrin and the others have to rely on an external source to activate the abilities. But it does line up pretty neatly with how the power of the Dragons/Manaketes are portrayed in other games.

Re: Alm/Ike

Not sure what makes them particularly more powerful than Corrin? Like, I understand that Ragnell is a powerful legendary sword with some notable destructive power. But it still doesn't have much *scope* of power - it can fire some sword beams and the blessings from Yune makes it uniquely able to cut deities, but Ike himself is still bound by normal human physics. He can still be stabbed and shot. His speed is still only peak human speed at best. You can argue that he's more resistant to magic due to Yune's blessing, since she keeps him from being petrified by Ashera's statue-wave! Alm... especially pre-Falchion Alm, doesn't even have that?

I'm not particularly attached to Corrin, but s/he just seems objectively more innately powerful than the normal humans. Just the ability to transform physically into a dragon with more mass, durability, and weaponized breath is a big advantage over characters that are (enchanted weapons aside) lightly-armored humans. Now, if the argument is that Corrin is weaker due to the sheer amount of anti-dragon weaponry among the cast of Smash Bros (there's like 10 characters with some variation of this in their homegames' skillsets), that is also a fair call. Like, yes, Marth himself would beat Corrin, obviously. It's his big claim to fame that he slays dragons! But Marth vs. non-dragon Smash fighters doesn't really fair as well as Dragon vs. non-dragonslayer-wielder Smash fighters.

That's not how dragon veins work.The worldbuilding in Fates is crap but there is enough to infer how dragon veins work.Namely,that they're spots in the land rich in draconic power(Think Valm's divine dragon grounds on a much smaller scale).Dragon blood merely allows someone the ability to manipulate this power in various ways.

Yune's blessing is quite clearly presented as a power boost.Saying that it "uniquely gives him the power to cut dieties" is the equivalent of saying that Falchion uniquely cuts divine and earth dragons.Sure,it's technically true within the context of the story given that both are essentially comparable to god tiers but it isn't like Falchion needs to be infinite in scope to get the job done with raw power either.Unless you'd also like to argue that Tiki and Nagi are literally infinite in power either(and by extension that Grima,Naga,and Loptous transcend infinity) and that god tiers are infinite in durability without specific workarounds.

"Insert FE lord here is just a human no different to one you'd meet in the real world"
Notthis****again.jpg

I wasn't aware that these were realistic depictions of fights between ordinary people

Even discounting that we see characters get hit by strikes that would kill real people multiple times,there are multiple characters who can straight up move at speeds faster than the eye can see,and arrows,meteors,and even CTG lightning can be dodged in multiple games.
"Oh but that last one is just gameplay so it doesn't count" I hear you say.
And yet arrow dodging in particular occurs in scripted scenes in multiple games in the series and there are instances of it being brought up in casual conversation so it's clearly not very farfetched.Hell,we literally see Chrom push Lucina out of the way of a lightning strike in Awakening.

Yes,clearly Alm can't survive magic attacks....which is naturally why he survives geting blasted by Delthea with Aura in a scripted scene.Aura in particular is the single most powerful form of magic in the entire setting aside from literal holy weapons being that it's power is draconic in origin.

Even aside from that,calling Alm and Celica regular people is absurd when they literally possess the blood of a divine dragon and have the holy brands to prove it.(They may or may not be major but Genealogy of the holy war is a bit vague about brands and Falchions a bit weird as far as holy weapons go)

So much wrong here about Corrin.
"just the ability to transform physically into a dragon with more mass, durability, and weaponized breath"
Umm....Corrin can't use breath attacks outside of an unused animation that was dummied out.And again,if dragon Corrin is so powerful then why did he need to backtrack to Notre Sagesse to get a power boost to even stand a chance against Xander?(And even then Xander threw the fight anyway)
I'm not even sure why you decided to bring up Marth here when he's the second weakest lord in the series anyway.

I'm starting to think you've never actually played any of the games and if you have you didn't get very far.It really just sounds like you skimmed the wiki.

FE character can tank magic attacks that have been calculated to have kilotons of energy output, not mention being able to dodge attacks that utilize lightning at best.

And their swords and blessings allow them to somehow defeat deities comparable to one that flooded the world expect for a single continent. It gives him the sufficent attack potency to harm characters with durability to survive attacks that can graze the earth's surface.

At least, this is what I gather

There's also Fjorm creating a bunch of enormous icicles in book 2 intro which as you could imagine would require an enormous amount of energy and you could make some insane arguments regarding Roy's binding blade depending how you treat the ending winter as well as some absolutely ludicrous things in heroes but you're more or less right.

 

[12cheeper]

It's weird how people suddenly bring up this idea that someone can 'dodge lightning' when we've all played that real-time video game where a boss calls down lightning during the fight and all you have to do to avoid it is to just never stop moving and keep dodge-rolling or whatever. Essentially, you aren't dodging at the speed of lightning, you're just moving around too much for the caster to aim at you properly. Batman doesn't dodge bullets, he just watches where the gunman is aiming.

Well I guess it's a good thing that's irrelevant since characters evade attacks the moment before it hits them.
Yeah,you've definitely never played an FE game before.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Well I guess it's a good thing that's irrelevant since characters evade attacks the moment before it hits them.
Yeah,you've definitely never played an FE game before.

Whoa. Tone it down. I have played literally every single FE game released in English, and most of the ones that didn't. You can drop that ad hominem right there.

Characters in Fire Emblem are generally presented as if they are supposed to be Humans, with all that comes along with that. There might be some cutscenes and gameplay animations with wacky anime physics for the sake of Rule of Cool, but we're almost certainly not supposed to be interpreting most of it literally. I know that in the GBA games that magic lightning animation starts playing and THEN the two-frame dodge animation happens, but there's also a good wind-up to the 'mage casting' animation that would give the targeted character plenty of time to discern where the lightning is being aimed. It's the same concept as watching where the gun is being aimed. They are not supposed to be DBZ-style faster-than-lightning speeds.

If you're using that kind of abstraction as proof of feats, then you might as well include how FE characters are giants that tower over castles and forts on the map screens. Or how Archers can fire through solid walls. Or how ~12 people can topple an entire empire of soldiers on their own. There's clearly more going on underneath the abstraction of the gameplay itself as it relates to the story. Implied nameless soldiers on the protagonists' side, at the very least, sort of like what we see in the trailers for the new FE game.

At least, that's how I've been interpreting it. You're welcome to disagree and present points, but don't try to defame me for disagreeing with you. That's just weird. This isn't such an important debate in the first place to get so heated up over.

Also, I'm really not sure where you get the idea that I'm implying that any FE character is infinite in power when I'm specifically calling most of them more like normal humans?

 

[12cheeper]

Whoa. Tone it down. I have played literally every single FE game released in English, and most of the ones that didn't. You can drop that ad hominem right there.

Characters in Fire Emblem are generally presented as if they are supposed to be Humans, with all that comes along with that. There might be some cutscenes and gameplay animations with wacky anime physics for the sake of Rule of Cool, but we're almost certainly not supposed to be interpreting most of it literally. I know that in the GBA games that magic lightning animation starts playing and THEN the two-frame dodge animation happens, but there's also a good wind-up to the 'mage casting' animation that would give the targeted character plenty of time to discern where the lightning is being aimed. It's the same concept as watching where the gun is being aimed. They are not supposed to be DBZ-style faster-than-lightning speeds.

If you're using that kind of abstraction as proof of feats, then you might as well include how FE characters are giants that tower over castles and forts on the map screens. Or how Archers can fire through solid walls. Or how ~12 people can topple an entire empire of soldiers on their own. There's clearly more going on underneath the abstraction of the gameplay itself as it relates to the story. Implied nameless soldiers on the protagonists' side, at the very least, sort of like what we see in the trailers for the new FE game.

At least, that's how I've been interpreting it. You're welcome to disagree and present points, but don't try to defame me for disagreeing with you. That's just weird. This isn't such an important debate in the first place to get so heated up over.

Also, I'm really not sure where you get the idea that I'm implying that any FE character is infinite in power when I'm specifically calling most of them more like normal humans?

Oh cool,so what we see with our own eyes doesn't count good to know.So I guess that time that Berkut launched Alm like 20 feet in the air from the force of his blows never happened.Florina dodging an arrow heading right for her?never happened.Basilio surviving having Walharts axe buried in his face?Never happened.Mozu mentioning random fateslandia bears being able to arrowtime?Never happened.Chrom accidentally bashing down walls while training?clearly noncanon.And even though it technically isn't out yet

The old guy at 1:40 twirling a chain whip so fast it creates a wind pressure that blows away the surrounding soldiers?lol doesn't count.
And of course none of the other cutscenes I posted count because you say so.
Your last paragraph is honestly just appealing to obvious game mechanics.
Maps have never been drawn to scale for good reason and fring through walls is an obvious game mechanic.

Like,I could honestly use similar points you have to unironically argue that aside from witch time and demon summoning Bayonetta is just a normal human with everything that implies and all of her impressive feats are just rule of cool and you aren't meant to take them at face value.

I'm honestly just kind of confused by you going on about presentation(even though the only game I can think of that tries to act like these characters are 1:1 with irl humans is the Tellius duology and even then slips up on occasion) yet at the same time go on and on about what an unstoppable badass dragon Corrin is and act like he could give Tiki or FE3/12 Medeus a good fight.(Hell,didn't you favorably compare him to Grima?The same Grima who killed Naga in a parallel universe?As in,the same Naga who's power that Anankos,the final boss and god tier was in complete awe of in the DLC?Or was that someone else?)even though the game never really treats Corrin like an unstoppable badass.Hell,he's blatantly below Xander and was only able to beat Garon because of the Yato and I can think of at least 2 instances of him having trouble against ordinary fodder soldiers.
Like,why even focus on the dragon form when the Omega Yato is way more powerful anyway?

It really feels like your just arguing from personal incredulity.You could at least try to argue my points either why said feats aren't legit or missing context if I forgot something.I fully welcome it in fact.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

I didn’t ever say Corrin was more powerful than Grima, first of all. Obviously not true. I don’t think Corrin is particularly powerful for a Dragon at all. I’m basing my view on how the characters treat Dragons in general as a big deal, because that’s the actual narrative/lore. The presentation is exaggerated to look cool. I’m also not saying that Corrin would defeat any of the other FE characters in Smash. Precisely because those characters are exceptionally good at killing Dragons. But apart from the magic weaponry that is designed to hit Dragons’ weaknesses, the human FE characters are only marginally more powerful than regular humans. Yes they can jump a bit higher and run a bit faster and seem to be a little more resistant to magic than real world peak-condition humans! I don’t deny that. But I don’t think the advantage is so pronounced that is really increases their power ranking much higher than other comparable human Smash fighters. So functionally, they aren’t really better than “normal humans” apart from their unique weaponry and a handful of strength feats. Even the Chrom/Lucina Lightning cutscene doesn’t look as if Chrom is moving faster than lightning, it looks like he’s anticipating the bolt and dodging accordingly. So while they do have the advantage over Corrin, a dragon, their unique traits are less generally-useful against the predominantly non-dragon cast of Smash.

I completely understand your disrespect for Corrin due to not being able to see a lot of feats of his/her Dragon form. but the way the narrative treats Dragons, the things the characters say about their power, seems to put them on a level above FE-world humans. So that’s the view I’m going with. Dragons have more power in general, but the FE Lords have the favorable match up specifically against Dragons.

 

[12cheeper]

I didn’t ever say Corrin was more powerful than Grima, first of all. Obviously not true. I don’t think Corrin is particularly powerful for a Dragon at all. I’m basing my view on how the characters treat Dragons in general as a big deal, because that’s the actual narrative/lore. The presentation is exaggerated to look cool. I’m also not saying that Corrin would defeat any of the other FE characters in Smash. Precisely because those characters are exceptionally good at killing Dragons. But apart from the magic weaponry that is designed to hit Dragons’ weaknesses, the human FE characters are only marginally more powerful than regular humans. Yes they can jump a bit higher and run a bit faster and seem to be a little more resistant to magic than real world peak-condition humans! I don’t deny that. But I don’t think the advantage is so pronounced that is really increases their power ranking much higher than other comparable human Smash fighters. So functionally, they aren’t really better than “normal humans” apart from their unique weaponry and a handful of strength feats. Even the Chrom/Lucina Lightning cutscene doesn’t look as if Chrom is moving faster than lightning, it looks like he’s anticipating the bolt and dodging accordingly. So while they do have the advantage over Corrin, a dragon, their unique traits are less generally-useful against the predominantly non-dragon cast of Smash.

I completely understand your disrespect for Corrin due to not being able to see a lot of feats of his/her Dragon form. but the way the narrative treats Dragons, the things the characters say about their power, seems to put them on a level above FE-world humans. So that’s the view I’m going with. Dragons have more power in general, but the FE Lords have the favorable match up specifically against Dragons.

Umm... How exactly do you "anticipate" lightning? Lightning is inherently unpredictable and if its already heading for you you're getting Hit unless you move out of the way before it hits the ground which even at the lowest end is still superhuman no matter how you cut it.Dont even get why you're so anal about this when we live in a world with FTL JJBA characters and comics where Batman is strong enough to kick trees in half.Are you Just not aware of the Charles atlas superhuman trope?

Sure,lets ignore its accolades and lore and say that Aura is "slightly above human level".
At least you arent arguing human level Julia?
(Though arguing that holy blood bearers are isnt much better tbh)

Also, you do realiza that most dragons arent that much stronger than the human characters, right?You fight tons of them long before the falchion shows up in both of Marths games (at least one of which is presented as being kaiju sized to boot)

Anyway,heres a vídeo of Sigurds army surviving getting pelted By multiple meteors before ultimately dying.

Fun fact a meteor weighing a single kilogram which these are clearly much MUCH largar than(seriously, a 1 kg meteor would be Tiny as hell) would have a kinetic energy of 60.5 million joules to 3.12 billion joules(14 kg of TNT-745 kg of TNT). Which clearly is only slightly superhuman like you said(seriously, what the hell do you think irl humans are capable of?) Pretty sure this is one of the aforementioned kiloton feats actually.

Im not gonna pretend like they dominate the top of the tiers.Thats reserved for the Belmonts, Shulk, Ness, Rosalina via lumas etc.Most dont even get to the triforce bearers sans endgame Roy and Yune blessed Ike but none of them sans those 2 even get to mid tier with or without downplay so I'm not really sure what you're going on about with Corrin in a game with characters who can knock celestial bodies out of orbit.Corrin is like low mid tier at best and even Thats only due to the omega yato.

FYI real World peak humans do not and cannot exist.Even if you were biologically immortal and spent the rest of eternity training you couldnt do it. The entire concept of a peak human(that is,someone who surpasses the worlds best athletes in every category) demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of biomechanics and basic physics due to a combination of muscle mass and the square cube law. (And thats ignoring the stuff these bodybuilder looking comic book characters do that ****s all over what actual humans are capable of on a regular basis.)

 

[monzer]

Plot Armored:

Ganon and Link are nowhere near truly invincible. At best Ganon is immune to attacks without "light" properties but even then that's questionable. Even if we assume that he's imune to all physical damage he's still susceptible to death by other means (drowning, suffocation, spacial erasure, starvation, exc).

Not sure why Kirby is here. He's pretty damn strong but he's not invincible. he can be damaged, defeated, and killed just like any other character in his series.

Gods:

Bayo and Shulk are vastly different in terms of power. Base Shulk is moon level at best whereas Bayonetta can destroy gas giants. God Shulk is universal and should be put at the top of the list (unless you count the paper Mario cast which outclasses him)

Demigods:

Sonic is planet level and should keep his spot here, but Bowser and Ridley are out of place. Bowser is anywhere from city level to Universal depending on what version you use to it's best to specify which form. I'm assuming you're using the Mario Galaxy version as that's the strongest he's been in the main series. In that case him (and the rest of the power star level Mario characters), should be near the very top with their star level feats (Bowser's vortex at the end of Galaxy 2 obliterated his galaxy generator, which is larger than Bowser's other reactors that contained (regular sized) stars, 64 Bowser created stars to fill the worlds he created, Power stars themselves can create stars, exc.).

Ridley should be here. Samus defeats him on a regular basis. He should several tiers down to where she is.

Angels:

Mewtwo should move a tier up. He's planet level through feats and power scaling. Dark Mewtwo in pokken tournament has a planet busting attack, Mewtwo from the main games should be comparable to the other legendaries on his level, so continent-planet level depending on how much you're willing to power scale. In Mystery Dungeon he has a planet level feat, in the anime he scales to planet busters, exc. A lot of sources say he's planet level so I don't think it's a stretch to say he's that strong.

Meta Knight and Dedede are vastly underrated here. The both of them are just as strong as kirby and they've shown it in gameplay, lore, and story multiple times. The two of them have equal stats to Kirby, they're constantly treated and stated to be mutual rivals, character on par with Kirby see them as serious threats, they've fought characters that Kirby struggled with and won, Kirby needed their help to beat Magalor and Void Termina (and the narrator implied that all of them put in equal work in the fight. I feel like a lot of people are convinced that Kriby's feats only apply to himself and that he's vastly above the rest of his verse. This isn't true. Kirby struggles and is visibly frightened by many final bosses, and he's needed help by other characters or items many times. He's not even the strongest character in his own series! his feats scale to the rest of the high end Kirby cast.

Dark Samus should be with normal Samus. The two are clones and seem to be near equal based on their fights (and also Samus won).

Over Powered:

King K. Rool should be a tier higher. He scales to DK, who knocked an island sized moon to the ground.

I have no idea why the Koopalings are above the main Mario cast. They're short boss fights and usually aren't challenging, and Mario and the others can damage them very easily.

Super Powered:

(Rosalina)

The Mario characters should be on Bowser's level, as they can damage him at the strongest. Donkey Kong and Diddy should be MUCH higher with their island moon feat.

Locked and Loaded:

ultcorrin:(Luma)

Star Fox cast should be way higher. In their Arwing's they can defeat Andross, who can move continents.

Peak Physical Condition:

(Popo)(Nana) (Gunner)

Ice climbers can one shot Polar Bears and jump sever times their own height. They're definitely superhuman. Little Mac's opponents have some pretty crazy feats as well (knocking bulls into the air, running alongside a train, exc).

Average Joes:

(Dog)

Daisy should be higher due to her feats in the sports games. Pokemon trainer has his balls, and if we give him full benefit of the doubt he can use the universal Sinnoh legendaries.

Below Average Joes:

(Olimar)(Pikmin)(Duck)

Olimar has his spaceship which is stated to be starbusting so he should be WAY higher.

-Combo Fighters are separated into individual characters (eg. Popo doesn't have access to Nana and vise versa).
-Character's are ranked only on their OWN strength (eg. Pokemon Trainer can't use Pokemon because they are allies not tools).

This is a weird distinction to make Combo fighters are still a single fighter and should be treated as such, if you want to separate them just rank them separately and as a combo to make things more in depth.

Pokemon Trainer still has his poke balls, which are certainly tools. Those can store pokemon for him to use in battle. Also, taking pokemon trainer by himself is getting rid of the point of the character in the first place.

-Villains are considered STRONGER than the heroes of their respective games unless otherwise proven (Heroes beating Villains can be attributed to the Player's skill not the Hero's strength).

This is by far the biggest flaw with your list. There's no reason to instantly assume that villains are magnitudes higher than hero just because they aren't playable in canon. With the exception of some Mario games, the protagonists can directly damage and defeat the villains in both the gameplay and the story. Skill isn't going to make a character beat someone two tiers higher than them. This leads to a lot of off placements like the weird Ridley **** and Koopalings hgiher than the Mario characters, even though both of those characters are regularly overpowered by the protagonists of their series.

: The Plot Armored Tier is reserved for fighters that can't be defeated by normal means. What makes Young Link unbeatable is his ability to rewind time in Majora's Mask. If the Hero of Time felt that victory wasn't assured he could rewind time and potentially have unlimited prep time to defeat his opponent.

Prep time can only do you so well. Sometimes a character will just be too strong for Link, especially ones that don't have any real weaknesses. Also characters who are sufficiently faster than Link can just get him before he turns back time.

: Daisy was originally in the Super Powered tier, but I moved her down to Average Joes after realizing that her only canon appearance is in Super Mario Land. Daisy doesn't do much in Super Mario Land.

Just use her feats in the other games she appeared in then. She's the most prominent in the sports games and Mario Party, and I'm sure there's some good feats in there. Those games beign canon or not isn't an issue since Mario has no canon.

: You can probably guess why ROB is in bottom tier, but seeing Mr. Game & Watch in the same tier may be a surprise. Mr. Game & Watch is an amalgamation of Game & Watch references created for Super Smash Brothers Melee and therefore doesn't technically exist in any game for the Game & Watch system. Since Smash Brothers is not canon, Mr. Game & Watch is not canon.

The same could be said for Mario or Link. Just use the strongest game and watch character or make a composite and you're good.

Aces also gives them all casual time manipulation and energy manipulation so that's always fun

Can you get more specific on this.

Also, with the Belmonts being added, they're now the most powerful characters according to powerscaling. Multiversal and MFTL+ to possibly Infinite speed. Castlevania is insane.

Feats?

I'm really enjoying the Fire Emblem debate going on right now. I've only played 2 Fire Emblem games so I won't join in but it's one of the better ones I've seen on this thread, as it's getting into the general lore and mechanics of the verse, which is an important factor that most people don't take into account when debating this kind of thing.

 

[12cheeper]

Drac is stated to be the abrahamic Gods equal,Aria of Sorrow has the source of his power casually fling countless galaxies at massively FTL speeds, creating dimensiones that have moons in them,creating some pretty damn big black hole, some games have enemies with light based attacks that can be dodged etc.
Its actually pretty nuts how strong CV is since like Zelda its a verse Thats WAAAYY more powerful than a quick glance would have you believe.
Though Castlevania takes it way further.

Also,AFAIK the holy weapons Ganon **** is fanon. The games have never stated anything close to it.
Closest we generally get is "The Master Sword is the only weapons strong enough to kill Ganon" which is more consistent with the games where Link beats Ganon without the MS showing up in the story. (Nevermind that hes visibly harmed By his own magic)
Extrapolating that to him having infinite durability is absurd.

 

[monzer]

Drac is stated to be the abrahamic Gods equal

How strong is Abrahamic god in Castlevania?

Aria of Sorrow has the source of his power casually fling countless galaxies at massively FTL speeds, creating dimensions that have moons in them,creating some pretty damn big black hole,

Damn that's really good. This should put them above everyone except for the straight up uni/multiversals (Shulk, Pokemon trainer, Paper Mario cast) and highballed Kirby cast. Didn't expect that much from the series.

Both of the Smash characters are stronger/on par with this form of Dracula, right?

some games have enemies with light based attacks that can be dodged etc.

Eh light attacks in video games don't really move as fast as real light. That being said there's already an FTL feat above this one so it doesn't really matter.

 

[12cheeper]

Light stuff is a bit feat true, but it meets almost all criteria right down to bouncing off of reflective surfaces.Obviously it isnt lightspeed in real time Because well, the playera needs to be able to reacts to it.
Same reason Sonic doesnt mover at mach speeds during gameplay.So Id say the feats fairly valid even if it doesnt boost anything.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'd say the top 3 are easily Kirby, Rosalina and Shulk. Kirby is stated by Sakurai or in-game (Don't know which) to possess infinite power and with Rosalina and Shulk they performed universal feats at the end of the games they appeared in.

 

[monzer]

I'd say the top 3 are easily Kirby, Rosalina and Shulk. Kirby is stated by his Sakurai or in-game (Don't know which) to possess infinite power and with Rosalina and Shulk they performed universal feats at the end of the games they appeared in.

Kirby having literal infinite power is a hyperbole. He's struggled against many of his enemies or needed extra help to beat them. He's Multi-Solar System level based on scaling from Void Termina, which is extremely good by smash bros. standards but not infinite.

Rosalina needed the Lumas to do the universal feat, and it took quite a lot of time to do so. She could be speed-blitzed by a lot of characters. Also, Rosalina's final move reset the universe to prevent it from being destroyed, so in combat it would be harder to use. If her and the Lumas could do that feat casually they would have been able to defeat Bowser, and since Rosalina and the Lumas were pretty helpless against Bowser it's fair to say it's not the most useful move against higher tiered enemies. That being said and army of Lumas is pretty ridiculous, and Rosalina's observatory should let her travel at FTL speeds bare minimum, so she's up there for sure.

 

[12cheeper]

Meh, Kirby **** is expected in these kinds of topics.But yeah, there are soooo many characters claimed to possess "infinite power".... who them either are shown struggling or are villains who end up getting their asses handed to them.

Pretty sure individual lumas are at least galaxy-ish if the hungry lumas are any indication and universal collectively.I wouldnt hold Bowser stealing the grand stars against her since the Mario series kinda runs on plot induced stupidity. (Just look at Súper Princesa Peach, a game where some dinky iron bars are somehow enough to contain the Mario bros.)

 

[monzer]

Meh, Kirby **** is expected in these kinds of topics.But yeah, there are soooo many characters claimed to possess "infinite power".... who them either are shown struggling or are villains who end up getting their ***** handed to them.

Kirby is also extremely ****ed even in his own series. For some reason people are under the impression that Kirby is some kind of undisputed top tier in his series and no one else compares of scales to him. In reality he's a lower ranking top tier in his series, stronger than the majority of the cast but is matched or outclassed by many of the final bosses. Even among the good guys, Meta Knight, Dedede, and Bandana Dee (sounds dumb buts it's true), are all at his level of power at their strongest. Even the helpers are relative to him.

Pretty sure individual lumas are at least galaxy-ish if the hungry lumas are any indication and universal collectively.I wouldnt hold Bowser stealing the grand stars against her since the Mario series kinda runs on plot induced stupidity. (Just look at Súper Princesa Peach, a game where some dinky iron bars are somehow enough to contain the Mario bros.)

Lumas are anywhere from planetoid to Galaxy depending on how powerful they are it seems, but that's only through transforming. Physically they aren't very strong, they lack durability, and they're only fast when they're about to transform. The Kirby cast and other Power Star-tiered Mario characters could beat them handily.

You can't really invoke PIS in cases like this. It was made very clear that Rosalina couldn't do anything against Bowser and needed Mario's help to defeat him.

It's consistent with the feats we have for Bowser as well. We already know he's capable of traveling at MFTL speeds via tagging starship Mario (and being on par with Mario in speed), and he destroyed his own Galaxy reactor in Galaxy 2, which is probably star sized via being larger then his other reactors that had stars in them. Power Stars give Bowser a behemoth boost compared to his base form so it's not that hard to believe that he could overpower the Lumas.

Also note that the universe busting was from Bowser's reactor, not from Rosalina. The Lumas only controlled the explosion. Obviously it's still a universal feat but they're some question of whether or not they can use it offensively.

If we give them the fully powered observatory the lumas would beat a lot of the higher tiers, but ultimately they would lose to faster characters.

 

[12cheeper]

Bowsers galaxy reactor did explode though.What the lumas did do was cause the ensuing universe ending black hole to collapse on itself triggering a second big bang and the birth of a new universe.
A refresher since the games kinda old.

 

[monzer]

What the lumas did do was cause the ensuing universe ending black hole to collapse on itself triggering a second big bang and the birth of a new universe.

It still wasn't used offensively. They controlled a universe level attack, but they didn't create one from scratch. They definitely have universe level output collectively, but it's clear it wasn't a casual thing for them or else they would have just nullified the explosion all together.

 

[12cheeper]

It still wasn't used offensively. They controlled a universe level attack, but they didn't create one from scratch. They definitely have universe level output collectively, but it's clear it wasn't a casual thing for them or else they would have just nullified the explosion all together.

Oh for sure it wasn't casual I'm just pointing out that together they are indeed universal.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Where did this Power Star-enpowered stuff come from? As far ad I know, Bowser has only stolen most of the collectibles, amd the only omes he actively used the powers of were the Grand Stars and all.

 

[12cheeper]

Where did this Power Star-enpowered stuff come from? As far ad I know, Bowser has only stolen most of the collectibles, amd the only omes he actively used the powers of were the Grand Stars and all.

From Super Mario 64

Toad:"Am I glad to see you! The Princess...and I...and, well, everybody...we're all trapped inside the castle walls. Bowser has stolen the castle's Stars, and he's using their power to create his own world in the paintings and walls."

Makes quite a bit of sense given that the paintings have entire worlds in them and you need star power to even access alot of the rooms in the castle.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Okay? But that's only Bowser and he's done it twice now.

He's using it to justify Mario characters in general being where they are when there's little evidence to show that Mario uses their powers for AP purposes.

Unless I've missed something

 

[12cheeper]

Okay? But that's only Bowser and he's done it twice now.

He's using it to justify Mario characters in general being where they are when there's little evidence to show that Mario uses their powers for AP purposes.

Unless I've missed something

Energy is energy.Generally if you can create something you can also destroy it.
You wouldn't argue that a character who can create planets and stars isn't on a stellar level of power, would you?(which funnily enough, Bowser actually did if Wigglers dialogue is any indication)
Though even aside from that there's feats like Bowser destroying planets in Mario Party.... 9 I think,Bowser surviving being in the SMG2 black hole when it collapsed and came out mostly OK aside from being shrunken down, the infamous "Yoshi turning Raphael the Raven into a constellation" feat from YI,and miscellaneous other galaxy feats.
There's also some stuff from paper but that's technically a separate universe.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I don't disagree with how powerful they are, just the notion that the Power Stars are the reasons that they're even that powerful to begin with when only one character has really used them

 

[monzer]

Where did this Power Star-enpowered stuff come from? As far ad I know, Bowser has only stolen most of the collectibles, amd the only omes he actively used the powers of were the Grand Stars and all.

In both the galaxy games and Mario 64 power stars are stated to boost the strength of character's. Bowser himself says he used power stars to boost his army and himself. In almost every battle he cites how he has (the power of the stars). Wiggler's fight makes it very clear, as he's physically much more powerful with the star than without. At the final battle, Bowser states how Mario himself has star power as well, so it's clear he's getting some kind of boost as well.

In the galaxy games, Mario is stated to have felt power surging through him when Master Luma started helping him. The lumas later say that Mario can use the "power of the stars" with Master Luma's help. Bowser also says that he has the power of the stars.

Finally, at the end of galaxy Bowser outright absorbs a Grand star and powers up.

Also its pretty clear the Mario and Bowser's feats in the games with power stars are far greater than without. Without power stars the most consistent feats tend to fall around town-island level whereas in Galaxy and 64 feats are around star level (arguably higher). Speed also goes from some level of hypersonic to massively ftl.

Energy is energy.Generally if you can create something you can also destroy it.

It actually takes a lot more energy to create than destroy, but I don't think that most series' take that into account. Also I wouldn't always say that creation=destruction because a lot of authors treat the two separately. It's a case by case basis thing.

On the case of Bowser I would generally say that creation=destruction though, since he has a star-galaxy level destruction feat as well (destroying his own reactor in Galaxy 2).

"Yoshi turning Raphael the Raven into a constellation" feat from YI,and

Honestly that's such an obvious outlier that you can't really use it to scale Yoshi, especially since it's unclear if he actually became a star or if it's just a funny way to show his KO (which it most likely was).

Sources cited:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_-IJYj-8w (start and end of Bowser fights)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssTyDaiUlo (2:01, 3:16, 4:42)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

With Dark Samus included, we now have a character who has a win condition against every character with minimal effort.

For those who don't know, Dark Samus can control Phazon which can warp the mind of any organic creature it comes into contact with.

In a one on one fight, she could beat anyone who wasn't omnipowerful. Even Mewtwo could fall in seconds.

Samus only resisted Phazon due to an exceptionally strong will, and even then it barely worked.

Even still, if Dark Samus is killed, the Phazon lives on.

Even when she loss, she wins.

She's incredibly scary and powerful.

Only Mega Man and R.O.B. Can resist Phazon and they aren't powerful enough to stop her.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

In both the galaxy games and Mario 64 power stars are stated to boost the strength of character's. Bowser himself says he used power stars to boost his army and himself. In almost every battle he cites how he has (the power of the stars). Wiggler's fight makes it very clear, as he's physically much more powerful with the star than without. At the final battle, Bowser states how Mario himself has star power as well, so it's clear he's getting some kind of boost as well.

In the galaxy games, Mario is stated to have felt power surging through him when Master Luma started helping him. The lumas later say that Mario can use the "power of the stars" with Master Luma's help. Bowser also says that he has the power of the stars.

Finally, at the end of galaxy Bowser outright absorbs a Grand star and powers up.

Also its pretty clear the Mario and Bowser's feats in the games with power stars are far greater than without. Without power stars the most consistent feats tend to fall around town-island level whereas in Galaxy and 64 feats are around star level (arguably higher). Speed also goes from some level of hypersonic to massively ftl.



It actually takes a lot more energy to create than destroy, but I don't think that most series' take that into account. Also I wouldn't always say that creation=destruction because a lot of authors treat the two separately. It's a case by case basis thing.

On the case of Bowser I would generally say that creation=destruction though, since he has a star-galaxy level destruction feat as well (destroying his own reactor in Galaxy 2).



Honestly that's such an obvious outlier that you can't really use it to scale Yoshi, especially since it's unclear if he actually became a star or if it's just a funny way to show his KO (which it most likely was).

Sources cited:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_-IJYj-8w (start and end of Bowser fights)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssTyDaiUlo (2:01, 3:16, 4:42)

Those are vague as hell, and how fo you explain the other things like Bowser being able to absorb celestial bodies in MP9 when the Mini Stars were all locked up?

They're the Star Children, so the "power of the stars" is as vague to where we could interpret that as being their gifted powers coming out.

You also rate Rosalina low, yet she can use the Spin Jump like Mario can, which was a power that one of the stars gifted to him or something like that, so she can obviously use this "power" on a whim as well as constantlt beung referred to as powerful and being put with the heavy hitters of the Marioverse

 

[monzer]

With Dark Samus included, we now have a character who has a win condition against every character with minimal effort.

For those who don't know, Dark Samus can control Phazon which can warp the mind of any organic creature it comes into contact with.

In a one on one fight, she could beat anyone who wasn't omnipowerful. Even Mewtwo could fall in seconds.

Samus only resisted Phazon due to an exceptionally strong will, and even then it barely worked.

Even still, if Dark Samus is killed, the Phazon lives on.

Even when she loss, she wins.

She's incredibly scary and powerful.

Only Mega Man and R.O.B. Can resist Phazon and they aren't powerful enough to stop her.

nice try....

If Samus's will is strong enough that certainly other characters could break through it. Similarly character's like Kirby have been shown to possess an immunity to mind control. Any character sufficiently faster and stronger than Dark Samus (which there are many) could just one shot her and the phazon before she even does anything. You can't assume that an ability can work on someone when it hasn't been shown working on someone else with similar stats. Amusing this is a no limits fallacy. The top tier characters in smash canonically range from planet to star all the way up to universe level and have ftl feats. These characters could easily beat a slow moving (from their perspective) mind control ability.

Those are vague as hell, and how fo you explain the other things like Bowser being able to absorb celestial bodies in MP9 when the Mini Stars were all locked up?

Mario party is a different continuity than the main platformers. Even the main series games barely have continuity, feats from party games obviously don't carry over to the other versions of the character. And yes, while Mario lacks an official continuity, there are still specific series' in the Mario canon, and not all series' are going to have identical characters.

Mario Party is pretty ridiculous from what I've heard and characters over there seem to have planet-star level feats. I'm talking about the Mario from the main games ("Super Mario" franchise).

They're the Star Children, so the "power of the stars" is as vague to where we could interpret that as being their gifted powers coming out.

Yes but the star children thing is constant throughout the entire series, whereas in every game where they have power stars, star level feats are present. The feats are centralized in the games where power stars are present. There's no reference to star children in Galaxy or 64, but there's plenty of references to power stars.

Star children having their full powers activate is headcanon whereas it's observable that power stars are giving characters a boost in the Wiggler fight and end of Galaxy 2.

The toad at the start of 64 also explicitly states that Bowser is using power from the power stars, so there's that.

You also rate Rosalina low, yet she can use the Spin Jump like Mario can, which was a power that one of the stars gifted to him or something like that, so she can obviously use this "power" on a whim as well as constantlt beung referred to as powerful and being put with the heavy hitters of the Marioverse

Having a similar ability=/=having the same power level. Her only physical feats by herself are in 3d World, where she's as strong as regular Mario. Being able to spin jump is far no where near the feats shown by Mario and Bowser in the Galaxy games.

Those are vague as hell,

>Clear reference to a new kind of power in play
>Power is stated to be making characters more powerful
>Characters have much greater feats to confirm this
>Power is heavily implied to come from power stars
>Power stars are the only power source mentioned in those games
>A character is shown getting a debuff after regurgitating a power star
>Bowser is shown absorbing a grand star and getting more powerful

If you look at everything together it's pretty clear.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Umm... How exactly do you "anticipate" lightning? Lightning is inherently unpredictable and if its already heading for you you're getting Hit unless you move out of the way before it hits the ground which even at the lowest end is still superhuman no matter how you cut it.

He's not anticipating natural lightning, he's anticipating a spellcaster, who he knows is aiming at them. He knows where the lightning is going to be. We also don't know that if the magical lightning itself behaves exactly the same as natural lightning with regards to speed, movement patterns, and energy transfer. You can make, but you cannot *prove*, a claim of 'faster than real-world lightning' based on what we see in game.

Sure,lets ignore its accolades and lore and say that Aura is "slightly above human level".
At least you arent arguing human level Julia?
(Though arguing that holy blood bearers are isnt much better tbh)

Why is FE4 even part of this? Also, isn't Aura specifically supposed to be the powerful dragon-destroying light magic? Or just evil-destroying in some games? If used against someone who isn't evil, the lore would suggest it isn't as powerful...

Also, you do realiza that most dragons arent that much stronger than the human characters, right?You fight tons of them long before the falchion shows up in both of Marths games (at least one of which is presented as being kaiju sized to boot)

This is a fair point. Characters *do* fight dragons without magic weapons at times! They tend to be the hardest non-boss units in the games. And even the lore seems to suggest they aren't to be taken lightly. The usual reaction isn't 'Oh, it's just some dragons', it's more like 'Oh my god, we're all gonna die, they've got dragons'. So yes, even though our plucky army of heroes manage to pick off the dragons one by one, the narrative seems to suggest that the dragons are indeed innately stronger.

Anyway,heres a vídeo of Sigurds army surviving getting pelted By multiple meteors before ultimately dying.

Fun fact a meteor weighing a single kilogram which these are clearly much MUCH largar than(seriously, a 1 kg meteor would be Tiny as hell) would have a kinetic energy of 60.5 million joules to 3.12 billion joules(14 kg of TNT-745 kg of TNT). Which clearly is only slightly superhuman like you said(seriously, what the hell do you think irl humans are capable of?) Pretty sure this is one of the aforementioned kiloton feats actually.

Again, not sure why we're using FE4 to prove the durability of characters in Smash when none of them are in Smash... BUT, okay, if we're assuming that all FE humans throughout the series are the same, then we'll consider this. Arvis attacks them with meteors and everyone dies. Not a great argument for their durability in the first place. But these aren't even natural meteors, they are some kind of spell that mimics something that looks like meteors. You can't make any definitive statements about how magical meteors fuction... Especially from the animation we see there. Real life meteors would be hurtling through space whereas we have no idea where exactly these magical rocks came into existence. Assigning that level of power to them is... tenuous at best. Certainly, surviving hot rocks falling on their heads for any amount of time is a pretty impressive feat that makes them more durable than most humans, but we don't know all of the factors involved to prove the claim that they are superhuman.

Im not gonna pretend like they dominate the top of the tiers.Thats reserved for the Belmonts, Shulk, Ness, Rosalina via lumas etc.Most dont even get to the triforce bearers sans endgame Roy and Yune blessed Ike but none of them sans those 2 even get to mid tier with or without downplay so I'm not really sure what you're going on about with Corrin in a game with characters who can knock celestial bodies out of orbit.Corrin is like low mid tier at best and even Thats only due to the omega yato.

Not sure why you think Roy and Ike are so much more powerful than the others? The Yune-blessing for Ike, I assume?

 

[12cheeper]

You're still going on about this? Christ,you're really hellbent on the series conforming to your preconcieved notions,aren't you?
Well, let's do this again I guess.

He's not anticipating natural lightning, he's anticipating a spellcaster, who he knows is aiming at them. He knows where the lightning is going to be. We also don't know that if the magical lightning itself behaves exactly the same as natural lightning with regards to speed, movement patterns, and energy transfer. You can make, but you cannot *prove*, a claim of 'faster than real-world lightning' based on what we see in game.

Did you even watch the scene?Where is this imaginary sorcerer?The burden of proof is on you that this guy even exists and no, it isn't Grima.He was just chilling in the background and If he was actively trying to kill them he would've just fired an expiration or dark spikes at them and ended it there. (You know, like he does at the beginning of the endgame chapter?)
The scene has a pretty clear progression
>Grima awakens
>he casually creates a big as hell thunderstorm
>Chrom pushes Lucina out of the way of a lightning bolt discharged by Said storm.

It's honestly a pretty straightforward feat.I'm not even sure why you're so anal about it.I've
done the math and while it's still superhuman it isn't that great.

Why is FE4 even part of this?

FE4 is relevant because the first 5 games+awakening+SoV are all set in the same universe so they're relevant for the same reason the FF7 prequels are relevant for analyzing Cloud.

Also, isn't Aura specifically supposed to be the powerful dragon-destroying light magic? Or just evil-destroying in some games? If used against someone who isn't evil, the lore would suggest it isn't as powerful...

And now we've gone from speculating about hypothetical context that isn't alluded to to literally making stuff up.The only games that Aura is given any prestige are the Archanea games where its simply superior to the more mundane spells used by most on the continent.
I don't even get where you're getting this anti dragon/evil nonsense from.
Are you just confusing it with the light arrows from the Zelda games or something?

Again, not sure why we're using FE4 to prove the durability of characters in Smash when none of them are in Smash... BUT, okay, if we're assuming that all FE humans throughout the series are the same, then we'll consider this. Arvis attacks them with meteors and everyone dies. Not a great argument for their durability in the first place.

Not particularly relevant since they survive multiple hits.

But these aren't even natural meteors, they are some kind of spell that mimics something that looks like meteors.

[Citation needed]

You can't make any definitive statements about how magical meteors fuction... Especially from the animation we see there. Real life meteors would be hurtling through space whereas we have no idea where exactly these magical rocks came into existence. Assigning that level of power to them is... tenuous at best

Now this is an interesting point.We know that at least in this continuity anima magic is definitely not bypassing physics since its not reality warping and is merely just manipulating natural energy.Which means there are 2 possibilities
1.The energy is merely being used to pull in orbiting space rocks
2.There is so much energy behind the tome that it is literally able to convert said energy into mass.

Fun fact, creating 1 kg of matter would produce more energy than the most powerful missile in the united states nuclear arsenal so I'd go with the orbiting space rocks one if I were you since you know, Aura would scale.

 

[Patbacknitro]

As far as the strongest character, that goes to Donkey Kong. With a single punch he was able to punch the moon out of its gravitational rotation straight towards Earth, and landed back on Earth without a single scratch. The Donkey Kong Country Returns ending has made him insanely Overpowered as a character.

 

[12cheeper]

Not sure why you think Roy and Ike are so much more powerful than the others? The Yune-blessing for Ike, I assume?

Yune blessing for Ike and the Binding Blade is superior to a small set of weapons that did, well this
https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Ending_Winter

"The Ending Winter was an event that happened during The Scouring. It occured because of the enormous combined power of the Dragons and the Legendary Weapons together at the Dragon Sanctuary. This power put such a strain on the universe that the laws of nature were warped. Natural catastrophes became common. Snow fell in the middle of summer. The stars shone even during the day. So much energy was drawn out of the universe in its attempt to restore the balance that it became impossible for dragons to remain in their large, powerful states."
Yeah, you really can't downplay this enough for it to not be absolutely insane.
Also helps that the Binding Blade physically amps Roy IIRC.

 

[12cheeper]

As far as the strongest character, that goes to Donkey Kong. With a single punch he was able to punch the moon out of its gravitational rotation straight towards Earth, and landed back on Earth without a single scratch. The Donkey Kong Country Returns ending has made him insanely Overpowered as a character.

Funny thing is that wasn't that insane until Odyssey clarified that the Mario moon was more or less analoguous to our own.
But nah,even with that there are stronger characters in the game.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

nice try....

If Samus's will is strong enough that certainly other characters could break through it. Similarly character's like Kirby have been shown to possess an immunity to mind control. Any character sufficiently faster and stronger than Dark Samus (which there are many) could just one shot her and the phazon before she even does anything. You can't assume that an ability can work on someone when it hasn't been shown working on someone else with similar stats. Amusing this is a no limits fallacy. The top tier characters in smash canonically range from planet to star all the way up to universe level and have ftl feats. These characters could easily beat a slow moving (from their perspective) mind control ability.



Mario party is a different continuity than the main platformers. Even the main series games barely have continuity, feats from party games obviously don't carry over to the other versions of the character. And yes, while Mario lacks an official continuity, there are still specific series' in the Mario canon, and not all series' are going to have identical characters.

Mario Party is pretty ridiculous from what I've heard and characters over there seem to have planet-star level feats. I'm talking about the Mario from the main games ("Super Mario" franchise).




Yes but the star children thing is constant throughout the entire series, whereas in every game where they have power stars, star level feats are present. The feats are centralized in the games where power stars are present. There's no reference to star children in Galaxy or 64, but there's plenty of references to power stars.

Star children having their full powers activate is headcanon whereas it's observable that power stars are giving characters a boost in the Wiggler fight and end of Galaxy 2.

The toad at the start of 64 also explicitly states that Bowser is using power from the power stars, so there's that.



Having a similar ability=/=having the same power level. Her only physical feats by herself are in 3d World, where she's as strong as regular Mario. Being able to spin jump is far no where near the feats shown by Mario and Bowser in the Galaxy games.



>Clear reference to a new kind of power in play
>Power is stated to be making characters more powerful
>Characters have much greater feats to confirm this
>Power is heavily implied to come from power stars
>Power stars are the only power source mentioned in those games
>A character is shown getting a debuff after regurgitating a power star
>Bowser is shown absorbing a grand star and getting more powerful

If you look at everything together it's pretty clear.

"Bowser"

Show me Yoshi using star power for the constellation thing. Show me them using star power in Mario Party, and I don't give a **** what you think about the continuity. You bash my own views yet hype up your own as if yours are better.

Using that Power Stars argument for the WHOLE CAST is dumb, which is what I've been trying to argue

 

[12cheeper]

"Bowser"

Show me Yoshi using star power for the constellation thing. Show me them using star power in Mario Party, and I don't give a **** what you think about the continuity. You bash my own views yet hype up your own as if yours are better.

Using that Power Stars argument for the WHOLE CAST is dumb, which is what I've been trying to argue

Ummm... Where is there any indication that the power of the star children is something that needs to be activated? Isn't it more likely that they're just these exceptionally powerful beings?

 

[Smearglangelo]

Ganon and Link are nowhere near truly invincible. At best Ganon is immune to attacks without "light" properties but even then that's questionable. Even if we assume that he's imune to all physical damage he's still susceptible to death by other means (drowning, suffocation, spacial erasure, starvation, exc).

Link doesn't need to be physically invincible, he can control time and guarantee his victory.

Ganon (OoT) can only be weakened by Light Arrows and that's only after Link turns Ganon's own magic against him to get through his defenses. Ganon is supposedly slain by Link after their battle in Ganon's Tower and is crushed beneath his castle... Only to get up a few seconds later and transform into Gannon Beast Ganon. After Link fights Beast Ganon, he stabs him in the head with the Master Sword.... and Ganon still doesn't die. Zelda and the other sages need to seal Ganon away because he was just too powerful to beat. The only way to defeat Ganon is with items from the Zelda games and even then it's not enough to kill his Ocarina of Time incarnation.

Not sure why Kirby is here. He's pretty damn strong but he's not invincible. he can be damaged, defeated, and killed just like any other character in his series.

Kirby's default description in Planet Robobot states: "Kirby is a round, pink life-form from Planet Popstar with infinite power, who can inhale enemies and copy their abilities.". Kirby CAN be defeated, but so can every other playable character in their respective games, that doesn't invalidate how strong he is. It's a little annoying that Kirby just has unlimited power just because HAL says so, but it's canon.

Ridley should be here. Samus defeats him on a regular basis. He should several tiers down to where she is.

I don't buy into the whole "heroes are stronger than villains by default" thing. Samus can't just overpower Ridley, she needs to avoid his attacks while she slowly damages him. That's how the player's input tips the scales in Samus' favor. Samus can die to weaker enemies, meanwhile, Ridley only dies when the entire Planet of Zebes explodes.

By the way, the tier list is a little outdated. Ridley got moved down to Angel tier awhile ago.

Meta Knight and Dedede are vastly underrated here. The both of them are just as strong as kirby and they've shown it in gameplay, lore, and story multiple times. The two of them have equal stats to Kirby, they're constantly treated and stated to be mutual rivals, character on par with Kirby see them as serious threats, they've fought characters that Kirby struggled with and won, Kirby needed their help to beat Magalor and Void Termina (and the narrator implied that all of them put in equal work in the fight. I feel like a lot of people are convinced that Kriby's feats only apply to himself and that he's vastly above the rest of his verse. This isn't true. Kirby struggles and is visibly frightened by many final bosses, and he's needed help by other characters or items many times. He's not even the strongest character in his own series! his feats scale to the rest of the high end Kirby cast.

You'll be happy to hear that King Dedede also got some pause screen love in Planet Robobot where Dedede Clones' description states: "Susie somehow managed to acquire DNA from King Dedede, one of the strongest life-forms on the planet" It could have said "one of the stronger life-forms", but because the game refers to Dedede as "one of the strongest" that pretty much ties him with Kirby.

Meta Knight defeated Galacta Knight (The Greatest Warrior in the Galaxy) in Meta Knightmare Ultra without Kirby's help, so he'll be in the same tier as Kirby and the King. Meta Knightmare and Meta Knightmare Returns seem to be elseworld scenarios, but Meta Knightmare Ultra appears to happen after Milky way Wishes due to the way Galactic Nova was summoned (Reversing the explosion caused when Kirby launched Marx into Galactic Nova).

I have no idea why the Koopalings are above the main Mario cast. They're short boss fights and usually aren't challenging, and Mario and the others can damage them very easily.

The Koopalings look similar to Bowser, breath fire, and can survive a lava bath. It's evident that the Koopalings' constitution is similar to Bowser, making them more durable then the rest of the Mario cast. They can also use magic.

Bowser Jr. is here for similar reasons to the Koopalings. He uses machines instead of magic.

Daisy should be higher due to her feats in the sports games.

The Mario Sports games are spin-off titles and can be considered non-canon. Main series Mario titles are typically action platformers. If Daisy debuted in Mario Tennis instead of Super Mario Land she would be in Lack of Canon tier.

Olimar has his spaceship which is stated to be starbusting so he should be WAY higher.

I suppose the SS Dolphin could be used like some sort of speeding bullet. I'll move Olimar and Alph up on the tier list.

This is a weird distinction to make Combo fighters are still a single fighter and should be treated as such, if you want to separate them just rank them separately and as a combo to make things more in depth.

Ice Climbers are technically two different characters, so I thought it would be nice to rank them separately. I'll probably get rid of the combo fighter rule when I update the tier list.

This is by far the biggest flaw with your list. There's no reason to instantly assume that villains are magnitudes higher than hero just because they aren't playable in canon. With the exception of some Mario games, the protagonists can directly damage and defeat the villains in both the gameplay and the story. Skill isn't going to make a character beat someone two tiers higher than them. This leads to a lot of off placements like the weird Ridley **** and Koopalings hgiher than the Mario characters, even though both of those characters are regularly overpowered by the protagonists of their series.

You misunderstand. That rule is meant to prevent villain's feats from being ignored because they get defeated by heroes that are weaker than them. If there's clear evidence that a hero is stronger than a villain, they will be in a higher tier than said villain.

Prep time can only do you so well. Sometimes a character will just be too strong for Link, especially ones that don't have any real weaknesses. Also characters who are sufficiently faster than Link can just get him before he turns back time.

Either Link wins or it's a stalemate, the fact that he can reset time means that he can't lose. The genius of Link's time travel is that nobody remembers anything, so nobody would know to stop him from going back in time.

Just use her feats in the other games she appeared in then. She's the most prominent in the sports games and Mario Party, and I'm sure there's some good feats in there. Those games beign canon or not isn't an issue since Mario has no canon.

Mario's canon is messy, but it exists. previous main series adventures are referenced in the beginning of Super Mario Sunshine when FLUDD is identifying Mario. It also happens again in Mario Odyssey when

Spoiler

Mario & Cappy capture Bowser and Mario sees Bowser's memories of their previous battles.

The same could be said for Mario or Link. Just use the strongest game and watch character or make a composite and you're good.

I don't know what you mean by "The same could be said for Mario or Link", but using the strongest Game & Watch character is a good idea.

I'll post an updated tier list with revised rules soon. There's just a few character placements I'm unsure about at the moment.

The only Fire Emblem games I've played are Awakening, Fates, and Echos. There's a lot of details about the FE series I'm unclear about so I've got nothing to add to this little debate that's been going on. Just try to keep it civil you guys.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

You're still going on about this? Christ,you're really hellbent on the series conforming to your preconcieved notions,aren't you?
Well, let's do this again I guess.

Uncalled for, really. We're discussing made-up power levels of fictional events involving magic. There's room for debate, which is why we're even having this conversation... and apparently it's useful to other members who haven't played much Fire Emblem. I argue against your point of view because I think there's more going on with how the player is supposed to interpret the visuals than just what is seen in a youtube video.

To use a semi-famous example, FF7's Sephiroth obviously can't be destroying the Solar System every time he casts a spell, there's clearly a little embellishment going on in the visuals for the sake of being interesting to the eye.

The FE characters do not treat each other as superhuman. And certainly there's no way armies with swords and spears would matter in a world where a sorcerer can conjure actual full meteors at will. Hell, there wouldn't be much in the way of *ground* left if we assume magic works like that.

Did you even watch the scene?Where is this imaginary sorcerer?The burden of proof is on you that this guy even exists and no, it isn't Grima.He was just chilling in the background and If he was actively trying to kill them he would've just fired an expiration or dark spikes at them and ended it there. (You know, like he does at the beginning of the endgame chapter?)
The scene has a pretty clear progression
>Grima awakens
>he casually creates a big as hell thunderstorm
>Chrom pushes Lucina out of the way of a lightning bolt discharged by Said storm.

It's honestly a pretty straightforward feat.I'm not even sure why you're so anal about it.I've
done the math and while it's still superhuman it isn't that great.

It's Grima. Grima is the spellcaster. The big dragon who you just said created it. Chrom knows an attack is coming. And that it is going to be aimed at them. He doesn't have to see the lightning first to know where it going because he knows Grima wants to zap them.

And now we've gone from speculating about hypothetical context that isn't alluded to to literally making stuff up.The only games that Aura is given any prestige are the Archanea games where its simply superior to the more mundane spells used by most on the continent.
I don't even get where you're getting this anti dragon/evil nonsense from.
Are you just confusing it with the light arrows from the Zelda games or something?

No, sorry, this one is on me. I was conflating Aura with Starlight ( https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Starlight )

Now this is an interesting point.We know that at least in this continuity anima magic is definitely not bypassing physics since its not reality warping and is merely just manipulating natural energy.Which means there are 2 possibilities
1.The energy is merely being used to pull in orbiting space rocks
2.There is so much energy behind the tome that it is literally able to convert said energy into mass.

Fun fact, creating 1 kg of matter would produce more energy than the most powerful missile in the united states nuclear arsenal so I'd go with the orbiting space rocks one if I were you since you know, Aura would scale.

I mean, it's magic, so either of those is equally likely as the intent, since I can guarantee no one at IntSys was sitting around calculating how much energy is being magically created or destroyed. But the point is that we don't know what the composition of that spell was. You can claim it's actual meteors being pulled from outside orbit, but the effects of that don't line up. We don't see craters forming. Certainly the size of the 'meteors' is abstracted since they are larger than castles and forts on the map (so are the human units, though, so provably an abstraction). We don't even know that the spell uses solid matter, these might just be balls of fire/intense heat.

Yune blessing for Ike and the Binding Blade is superior to a small set of weapons that did, well this
https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Ending_Winter

"The Ending Winter was an event that happened during The Scouring. It occured because of the enormous combined power of the Dragons and the Legendary Weapons together at the Dragon Sanctuary. This power put such a strain on the universe that the laws of nature were warped. Natural catastrophes became common. Snow fell in the middle of summer. The stars shone even during the day. So much energy was drawn out of the universe in its attempt to restore the balance that it became impossible for dragons to remain in their large, powerful states."
Yeah, you really can't downplay this enough for it to not be absolutely insane.
Also helps that the Binding Blade physically amps Roy IIRC.

Are you giving Roy credit for having all of the Legendary Weapons + a bunch of dragons? It seems that wielding just -one- of the weapons wouldn't amount to that level of destruction/reality warping. We certainly don't see any effects like that in FE6. (Flipside, that is still a pretty cool argument for the power of combined legendary weapons in the FE universes. I can see why you're arguing for the weapons to be a bigger deal than the dragons, though I would point out that this particular story DOES include the Dragons themselves as the second half of the reality-warping equation.)

 

[12cheeper]

Uncalled for, really. We're discussing made-up power levels of fictional events involving magic. There's room for debate, which is why we're even having this conversation... and apparently it's useful to other members who haven't played much Fire Emblem. I argue against your point of view because I think there's more going on with how the player is supposed to interpret the visuals than just what is seen in a youtube video.
equation.)

Meh, this is just growing tiresome and your arguments aren't exactly compelling.r/whowouldwin tier bad tbh.
@FF7 nonsense
Supernova is actually legit.
Its corroborated by summons with cosmic tier feats who are inferior to even CC era Sephy, he brings it with him into every crossover,characters in the compilation straight up mention it,and even aside from game mechanics there actually is in-universe explanations making spamming it perfectly plausible.Namely, that it functions similarly to summons.(Notice how at the beginning of the animation the screen shatters almost as if the party is being pulled into a pocket dimension.
So yeah, not the best argument for FE downplay.

But hey,if you can find me an interview where IS straight up says that battle animations don't count I'd be happy to concede.Because these sorts of discussions kind of necessitate death of the author and even if they didn't you have no qualifications to be putting words in the creators mouths.
Again, you're literally just arguing from personal disbelief.

It's Grima. Grima is the spellcaster. The big dragon who you just said created it. Chrom knows an attack is coming. And that it is going to be aimed at them. He doesn't have to see the lightning first to know where it going because he knows Grima wants to zap them.

And yet he doesn't just use expiration like he normally would which also possesses greater firepower and AOE.(Nevermind that lightning isn't very good at killing even irl people tbh.)
And yes, Chrom is clearly aimdodging an attack that is never telegraphed and he *coincidentally* pushes Lucy out of the way the moment the bolt lands.Boy that was sure convenient and Grima doesn't try any followup attacks because ????????
Seriously dude,Oocams razor.
I'm not the one making a million different assumptions that aren't even remotely implied.

No, sorry, this one is on me. I was conflating Aura with Starlight ( https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Starlight )

OK,now I'm just confused even more.
Starlights straight up only appeared in the Archanea duology and its main claim to fame is just like the lightsphere allowing the user to resist the mind hax capabilities of the darksphere and Imhullu.I don't know where the hell you got this "super effective against dragons and evil beings" nonsense from.

I mean, it's magic, so either of those is equally likely as the intent, since I can guarantee no one at IntSys was sitting around calculating how much energy is being magically created or destroyed. But the point is that we don't know what the composition of that spell was. You can claim it's actual meteors being pulled from outside orbit, but the effects of that don't line up. We don't see craters forming. Certainly the size of the 'meteors' is abstracted since they are larger than castles and forts on the map (so are the human units, though, so provably an abstraction). We don't even know that the spell uses solid matter, these might just be balls of fire/intense hvalid

Appealing to an authors possible ignorance isnt really a valid argument.It doesn't invalidate the feats themselves.Hell,most shounen manga writers don't think the implications of their higher end feats through either.Are those feats no longer valid either?
"These might just be balls of fire"
>spell is literally called meteor
>we can literally see the texture of the rock through the fire

Try again.
Also, in-game scale is irrelevant when we have illustrations from treasure until the inevitable Jugdral remakes.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...Barhara.png/revision/latest?cb=20090708023811

Are you giving Roy credit for having all of the Legendary Weapons + a bunch of dragons? It seems that wielding just -one- of the weapons wouldn't amount to that level of destruction/reality warping. We certainly don't see any effects like that in FE6. (Flipside, that is still a pretty cool argument for the power of combined legendary weapons in the FE universes. I can see why you're arguing for the weapons to be a bigger deal than the dragons, though I would point out that this particular story DOES include the Dragons themselves as the second half of the reality-warping equation.)

Irrelevant.Even if you downplayed the effects and treated the ending winter as just a second ice age, even then if you divided the energy of the legendary weapons and maybe a couple thousand dragons
equally youd still get a value within the gigaton range.
Stars shining in Day would be getting into stellar luminosity and whoo boy,at that point you approach starting to have to use Foe(the typical energy output of a supernova) instead of tons of tnt.

 

[monzer]

Show me Yoshi using star power for the constellation thing.

Read my older post. I do not think that the Yoshi constellation feat is valid in any way. It's a vague scene and an outlier. It's just a funny way to end a boss fight and we have no idea if the boss actually turned into a star. Yoshi has never been shown, stated, or implied to have the ability to turn opponents into stars outside of that one point, that as I said can easily be interpreted in different ways.

There's also the fact that creation and transformation don't always equal destruction, so even if we assume that Rapheal actually turned into a star, that feat doesn't instantly apply to Yoshi's destructive and offensive ability. And given that this feat has never been replicated by Yoshi in games without power stars, we can assume that this would not scale to Yoshi's destructive capabilities. Creation and destruction are two different things, and unless it's implied that the two are linked, or there are destructive feats on that level as well, you can't equate the two.

Show me them using star power in Mario Party,

Different continuity, different series, different rules. Character are super strong in Mario Party, doesn't mean they're that strong everywhere else.

and I don't give a **** what you think about the continuity.

Doesn't matter. Continuity is continuity. You can't declare a side series of party games in the same canon as the main platformers just because you feel like it.

You bash my own views yet hype up your own as if yours are better.

That's the whole point of the thread, and debates in general. You want to defend your beliefs and refute others until your convinces otherwise.

Using that Power Stars argument for the WHOLE CAST is dumb, which is what I've been trying to argue

There are characters who can get to that level without power stars. Mario Party characters, Lumas, Dream Team characters, and possibly others are on that level of power and speed and well. I'm referring to the Mario cast as we see them in the main platformers.

 

[monzer]

Link doesn't need to be physically invincible, he can control time and guarantee his victory.

Anyone faster than him would just kill him before he turns back time.

The only way to defeat Ganon is with items from the Zelda games and even then it's not enough to kill his Ocarina of Time incarnation.

This is a big no limits fallacy here. Only certain items in the Zelda Universe can beat Ganon, but weapon from other universes with similar properties or power would do the trick. Also you ignored my comment about non-direct ways to kill him. Drowning, Suffocation, Starving, exc, are all ways to beat Ganon. You can't extrapolate these statements to infinity.

Kirby's default description in Planet Robobot states: "Kirby is a round, pink life-form from Planet Popstar with infinite power, who can inhale enemies and copy their abilities.". Kirby CAN be defeated, but so can every other playable character in their respective games, that doesn't invalidate how strong he is. It's a little annoying that Kirby just has unlimited power just because HAL says so, but it's canon.

>What is hyperbole

Statements aren't enough to put someone on an infinite level of power. Not when they have no feats to show for it. "Infinite" doesn't have to be taken literally and given how nothing else in the series has ever implied it to be that way, it shouldn't be taken literally.

I don't buy into the whole "heroes are stronger than villains by default" thing. Samus can't just overpower Ridley, she needs to avoid his attacks while she slowly damages him. That's how the player's input tips the scales in Samus' favor. Samus can die to weaker enemies, meanwhile, Ridley only dies when the entire Planet of Zebes explodes.

The fact that Samus can damage Ridley alone means they're on the same tier. When dealing with this kind of thing, tiers are huge differences in power, so much so that one character shouldn't even be able to harm, let alone defeat someone in a higher tier though conventional means. In the canon of the story, Samus defeats Ridley multiple times. She does it with some struggle, and part of it was likely skill/speed, but it happened nonetheless and they be in the same tier.

The Koopalings look similar to Bowser, breath fire, and can survive a lava bath. It's evident that the Koopalings' constitution is similar to Bowser, making them more durable then the rest of the Mario cast. They can also use magic.

>Look similar to Bowser
If I dress up as Bowser does that mean I'm stronger than Mario as well? Saying that characters must be similar in power just because they look similar is laughable, especially when in series power scaling says otherwise.

Breathing fire and lava immunity aren't enough to put them a full tier higher than the Mario bros. Not with the feats that Mario has.

>They're the same species as Bowser so they're as durable as him

Mario can KO them in 3 hits in every game they've appeared in. They aren't even close to Bowser's durability.

You misunderstand. That rule is meant to prevent villain's feats from being ignored because they get defeated by heroes that are weaker than them. If there's clear evidence that a hero is stronger than a villain, they will be in a higher tier than said villain.

If a villain who shows a certain level of power is defeated by the main hero, than the main hero can be assumed to have abilities on that level as well. It doesn't show the villains weakness but the hero's strength. The feats don't get ignored they just get scaled to the hero. A main protagonist defeating a villain in canon is enough evidence in itself than their as strong or stronger than they are.

Either Link wins or it's a stalemate, the fact that he can reset time means that he can't lose. The genius of Link's time travel is that nobody remembers anything, so nobody would know to stop him from going back in time.

My point is that Link isn't fast enough to turn time back before he just gets blitzed by someone far faster than him.

Mario's canon is messy, but it exists. previous main series adventures are referenced in the beginning of Super Mario Sunshine when FLUDD is identifying Mario. It also happens again in Mario Odyssey when

My point is that Mario has no main canon. There are multiple timelines/continuities but none of them are official. There's author statements in this thread referring to this, where it's explained that the developers see the characters as "actors" that have no official storylines or canon to them. Since the characters have no main canon timeline, it's best to consider all series' and use multiple versions