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Well yes of course. Doubt Marth would let himself be eaten quite easily though. Don't forget he's actually a pretty strong dude. Falchion is an extremely strong sword as well, but I do think Yoshi can take a few hits from it. If we use Fire Emblem logic, Yoshi has an advantage in range, he's got explosive eggs, aerial combat, and of course his tongue...
I do think I need to seriously reevaluate Yoshi and Peach now. But does Peach really get all the same powerups? She's defensively very capable with her Parasol. Oh and I totally forgot Super Princess Peach! That game also definitely put her on the map.
So yeah, Yoshi beats Marth, and probably Roy. So that puts the Sword Lords on a lower tier ranking than them. Definitely. Okay that's settled. But what about Corrin? Corrin seems pretty powerful, being a dragon and all. Weather manipulation and stuff. I doubt Corrin could be simply eaten.
I do think I need to seriously reevaluate Yoshi and Peach now. But does Peach really get all the same powerups? She's defensively very capable with her Parasol. Oh and I totally forgot Super Princess Peach! That game also definitely put her on the map.
So yeah, Yoshi beats Marth, and probably Roy. So that puts the Sword Lords on a lower tier ranking than them. Definitely. Okay that's settled. But what about Corrin? Corrin seems pretty powerful, being a dragon and all. Weather manipulation and stuff. I doubt Corrin could be simply eaten.
Well yes of course. Doubt Marth would let himself be eaten quite easily though. Don't forget he's actually a pretty strong dude. Falchion is an extremely strong sword as well, but I do think Yoshi can take a few hits from it. If we use Fire Emblem logic, Yoshi has an advantage in range, he's got explosive eggs, aerial combat, and of course his tongue...
I do think I need to seriously reevaluate Yoshi and Peach now. But does Peach really get all the same powerups? She's defensively very capable with her Parasol. Oh and I totally forgot Super Princess Peach! That game also definitely put her on the map.
So yeah, Yoshi beats Marth, and probably Roy. So that puts the Sword Lords on a lower tier ranking than them. Definitely. Okay that's settled. But what about Corrin? Corrin seems pretty powerful, being a dragon and all. Weather manipulation and stuff. I doubt Corrin could be simply eaten.
In theory, there is one sure fire way Marth could win, and it relies on Yoshi's arguably biggest weakness: his tongue.
Yoshi wins if he gets the jump on Marth, but if Marth keeps his distance and makes Yoshi try to eat him from afar, he could use Falchion to sever his tongue before it reaches him. As well, even if he gets grabbed, there's a small span of time when he could still cut the tongue before entering the mouth. Falchion can pierce the hide of dragons and kill them, so I doubt Yoshi is durable enough to withstand it.
Yeah I also think that Yoshi just eating Marth isn't as simple as it looks like. Marth and the FE cast withstand lava, boulders falling in them, attacks from giant dragons and elemental magic spells. I say they are pretty damn solid and it's not like Marth cannot dodge the tongue of Yoshi either.
Am not feeling for too much realism here, like Marth severing Yoshi's tongue. But he could definitely dodge or block. Yoshi's biggest advantages here are ranged attacks and stronger durablity. Marth probably has more direct striking power due to Falchion.
Actually Marth also has a lot of tools in his possession like the Orbs and the Shield of Seals. It protects him against... stuff. I forgot. Anyway I definitely see Marth as more than a cakewalk for Yoshi. Need to investigate more.
Yoshi wins if he gets the jump on Marth, but if Marth keeps his distance and makes Yoshi try to eat him from afar, he could use Falchion to sever his tongue before it reaches him. As well, even if he gets grabbed, there's a small span of time when he could still cut the tongue before entering the mouth. Falchion can pierce the hide of dragons and kill them, so I doubt Yoshi is durable enough to withstand it.
Yoshi's tongue would probably just grab the sword if he tried it. Yoshi's tongue can pretty much eat anything small enough. The Falchion shouldn't be an exception. Yoshi>>Fire Emblem Dragons.
Am not feeling for too much realism here, like Marth severing Yoshi's tongue. But he could definitely dodge or block. Yoshi's biggest advantages here are ranged attacks and stronger durablity. Marth probably has more direct striking power due to Falchion.
You can't really block a grab ability like Yoshi's, but he could definitely dodge. Marth needs to hit Yoshi several times to actually beat him though, while Yoshi only needs one hit and it's over.
How strong is Falchion? Yoshi can likely take out large castles. Can Falchion match that?
Also, once Mario Odyssey comes out, I can see Mario going up a tier or 2 especially if he can possess people as strong as Bowser.
Falchion is effective against dragons. Wether Yoshi counts as one I leave up to you guys, cause that would mean triple damage. Anyway Marth also got these certain Orbs that give him protection as well as the Shield of Seals. This shield gives a stat buff to Marth and does everything all the Orbs do. So that's pretty damn good.
I think Yoshi is more durable than Fire Emblem's dragons too, but don't underestimate those dragons either.
In a cutscene of Radiant Dawn (Ike's second game) a dragon Laguz destroys a large castle with just one attack. Dragons in Fire Emblem posed a major treat to humanity in many Fire Emblem games. Sure Yoshi is strong, but again, doesn't have much destructive force. He might not be able to swallow Marth as whole as well. Marth would definitely be taller than most of the common type of enemies Yoshi usually shallows.
Oh by the way, Falchion can also restore a little HP for Marth if he wishes.
Still don't think it's a cake walk for Yoshi. How large are the biggest enemies he eats in his recent games?
Falchion is effective against dragons. Wether Yoshi counts as one I leave up to you guys, cause that would mean triple damage. Anyway Marth also got these certain Orbs that give him protection as well as the Shield of Seals. This shield gives a stat buff to Marth and does everything all the Orbs do. So that's pretty damn good.
In a cutscene of Radiant Dawn (Ike's second game) a dragon Laguz destroys a large castle with just one attack. Dragons in Fire Emblem posed a major treat to humanity in many Fire Emblem games. Sure Yoshi is strong, but again, doesn't have much destructive force. He might not be able to swallow Marth as whole as well. Marth would definitely be taller than most of the common type of enemies Yoshi usually shallows.
Marth doesn't appear in Radiant Dawn, do dragons that strong exist in Marth's canon? I don't think that Height would matter as much as mass. Mario is pretty heavy and I don't think that Marth is weighs much more than that.
Ok, people are overrating certain characters by a huge margin on here.
Lets start with :
I see lots of people refer to Rosalina as "omnipotent" or "basically god." These are gross overestimations of Rosalina's power. First of all, Rosalina is only as strong as Mario without any Lumas. We can see this in Super Mario 3d world, where she is a playable character. Before anyone says "its non-canon" this is the only time we see Rosalina fight in game, and Mario games are pretty consistent with power levels.
Rosalina's power comes from her Lumas. They can become planets, stars, and even black holes. They can also reset the universe. HOWEVER, Rosalina herself is still left wide open, and as stated previously, she is as durable as Mario. This means many characters can speed-blitz her before she does anything (Lumas take a long time to do anything). Obviously she isn't bottom tier or anything. She belongs in high tier, right below "true" planet busters.
Also, even if we **** Rosalina as much as possible she is NOT OMNIPOTENT. Omnipotence implies complete control of literally everything with no exceptions. An omnipotent character could destroy an infinite amount of infinite dimensional objects. Omnipotent characters are beyond even things like logic and science. Literally nothing can even dent them to any extent. Rosalina is not omnipotent. For omnipotent characters look at Azathoth and The One Above All.
Guess who else isn't omnipotent, :
Palutena is not planet level. She has no real feats aside from helping Pit do certain things. We know that she's a god in Kid Icarus, but so is Hades, who Pit defeats. There no evidence that she's anywhere on the level of power as, say or . She is a high tier just like Rosalina.
Next up is the queen of ****ed fancalcs :
Yes, I know someone on here made a bunch of crazy calculations about Samus on here, but that doesn't justify her placement in top tier. Those calcs put her at high nuclear level. She has no planet busting feats, no lightspeed feats, not even any hax on Mewtwo's level. She has nothing that would let her even stand a chance against a planet buster. She is a high tier character like Rosalina.
Not exactly sure what the aeon abilities do. But I've done a some research and it doesn't look like she has any crazy reality warping powers.
Now we have the second or third fastest character in game or otherwise:
Sonic is not lightspeed. He just Isn't. He has never traveled that fast in game. He has never traveled that fasts in a cut-scene. Not ever.
Yes, in game guides and Sonic's own quotes say that he's Lightspeed, but that doesn't change the fact that it makes no sense from both a gameplay and story perspective. Sonic is canonically a braggart, so his quotes hold little weight. similarly, game guides say a lot of inaccurate things, and I wouldn't consider them to be part of the game.
Finally, even if we do consider Sonic's "lightspeed dash" to be lightspeed, it's been shown in game that he can only use that to travel a few yards. That basically just makes his lightspeed dash akin to short range teleportation.
Oh yeah. Archie Sonic is multiversal but that's non canon.
I still think this guy is top tier, but he gets ****ed a lot:
Mewtwo is top tier. That's undeniable at this point. However, he is not on par with the other top tiers in raw stats like many people make him out to be. Mewtwo's raw power is high nuclear (possibly tectonic) and he's around super sonic speed.
He is not as strong or stronger as Freiza in physical stats like the "Mewtwo vs Freiza" chart makes him out to be. That chart tries to determine the potency of DBZ attacks by using calculations from the crater made by the attack. This is a very inaccurate way to determine attack power, as it assumes that the sizes of those craters are well thought out. DBZ is not a scientific show at all. Freiza can easily destroy a planet is his weakest form. Its also explained that characters manipulate their beams to cause less destruction to the surrounding terrain. However this has nothing to do with Mewtwo's power, I just wanted to set this straight.
Don't get me wrong, because of his crazy hax Mewtwo is still top tier. I would even consider him to be the most powerful character in canon with a winning match up against every character.
Finally we have "sans":
I'm keeping this one short. Ness is not universal. Ness and co were unable to damage Gygas, and them tanking attacks form him means nothing since Gygas had lost his mind and probably wasn't even using his attacks at full power.
Phew.
There was that one guy on here who said Link could beat everyone, but that's pretty easy to disprove. I've heard people say Kirby is star level outside of this board but again obviously that's wrong.
You have a good rational way of thinking there. And seeing as I was the one with the Mewtwo DBZ chart, I will elaborate.
It has mainly been using data from the Pokedex entries, which are rather contradicting at times. I could believe that a few feats are possible, but say, a Magcargo isn't hotter than the sun. It's clearly made out of lava and / or magma, but it wouldn't even be able to move around if it's hotter than the sun (in degrees Fahrenheit, I lack the scientific data and I honestly am too lazy to look it up).
I also do think that Mewtwo is extremely powerful, and indeed has a winning matchup against all. This doesn't mean another character couldn't ever possibly beat him, but that would be a lucky shot. In sheer amount of abilities, Mewtwo has a lot, and he has raw power, but is rather frail. So that's why he's just barely above the rest of the cast. Again, guess it depends on the version of Mewtwo.. As his RBY version with Amnessia, Recover, Psychic and whatever move is just overkill against anything.
Sonic and Ness are overrated slightly, but I feel the need to defend Ness sometimes cause not many people are knowlegdable about him or the MOTHER franchise. There WAS this Lucas fan though, called @_clinton who kept on propagating that Lucas is the strongest character because of end game spoilers.
I also think the Godesses are heavily overrated, and both are easily beatable. Could they fend off against an Arwing? Am not really sure honestly... There's nothing that implies either is very durable. And Andross is also a 'God' in his own right. I am pretty sure that even the Fire Emblem cast would be able to beat them; especially Ike.
Ike, Lucina and Robin are potentially far more dangerous than people give them credit for by the way. Their skill sets are crazy.
I still stand by most of my old list rankings however. Though am slightly changed in opinion about the likes of Yoshi, Peach and King Dedede. They are weaker than Mario and Kirby sure, but not by too much. Still think they don't belong in the same tier as the actual heroes though.
Oh yeah by the way, Pit is pretty damn powerful, and Dark Pit could be even stronger cause he's got actual abilities and doesn't rely on Palutena for anything.
Am still totally down to do proper matchups by the way.
It has mainly been using data from the Pokedex entries, which are rather contradicting at times. I could believe that a few feats are possible, but say, a Magcargo isn't hotter than the sun. It's clearly made out of lava and / or magma, but it wouldn't even be able to move around if it's hotter than the sun (in degrees Fahrenheit, I lack the scientific data and I honestly am too lazy to look it up).
I also do think that Mewtwo is extremely powerful, and indeed has a winning matchup against all. This doesn't mean another character couldn't ever possibly beat him, but that would be a lucky shot. In sheer amount of abilities, Mewtwo has a lot, and he has raw power, but is rather frail. So that's why he's just barely above the rest of the cast. Again, guess it depends on the version of Mewtwo.. As his RBY version with Amnessia, Recover, Psychic and whatever move is just overkill against anything.
I would say that he would lose to the other top tier 30-40 percent of the time. I would actually say the trick room/me first hax is what puts Mewtwo so high. Without those he's omly a bit stronger than Mega Charizard.
Yeah. Robin could beat quite a few "glass canon" characters with counter hax. They could also crush most characters in their tier if they get lucky and a skill triggers.
I know this thread is basically dead and all, but I want to put my thoughts on power scaling here for good keeping As, for the most part disagreements on stuff like this come down to disagreements over how feats and power scaling should work. My Power Scaling Rules So it seems to be the common belief when it come to things like this that the hierarchy of "feats" is:
Canon Feats>Power Scaling>Author Statements>Character Statements>Fancalcs>Headcanon
While this is accurate (for the most part) people seem to forget that power scaling IS a canon feat. There is no logical difference between a character destroying a planet and a character fighting evenly with another character that can destroy planets. Obviously, there are reasons why power scaling is rightfully treated over actual feats in some situations. Some stories are extremely inconsistent with their power levels to the point that anyone can basically beat anyone if they have the favor of the writer (DC, Marvel). Obviously we can't use power scaling to accurately determine strength this way (unless the 2 characters are always treated as rivals/equals and it logically makes sense).
However, if a universe is largely consistent with their power levels I would say that power scaling is even more accurate than canon feats! Many authors don't really think about what a character doing a certain feat would really mean or imply. They just use that feat to show that the character is strong, even if the feat logically makes no sense, would technically make the character weaker than the people they're supposed to be stronger than, or contradicts other feats. In this case, the only thing that could accurately tell how strong that character is would be power scaling. In short, the value of power scaling and feats in general is something that is determined by the universe that it takes place in.
I've seen many people mistake "feats>power scaling" for "no power scaling", and downplay many characters because of this. obvious, this does not make sense logically. People need to take the outside factors and logic into account when dealing with these things.
Hierarchy of feats imo should be:
Logic>canon feats=Power scaling=Author Statements>Character Statements>Fancalcs>>>>Headcanon
Obviously as I said logic trumps all. Power scaling, canon feats, and author statements are all essentially "confirmations" of certain levels of power, and its really up to in universe logic to decide which ones take priority over others. Character statements really depend on the character for the most part but they are always less accurate than author statements. Fancalcs have some merit if they make sense but most of the time they use random numbers that the authors didn't think much of when making them. Head canon shouldn't even be used at all.
TR;DR: Power Scaling is a legitimate feat and should be treated as one. The internal consistency of the universe should be enough in most cases to accurately tell which feats should be valid, and which should not be valid, and saying that "power scaling is always trumped by feats," would only apply to universes with inconsistent power levels.
Character A is planet busting. Character A fights character B and the 2 tie. The universe that this story takes place in has consistent power levels.
Obviously, it can be deduced here that Character B is planet busting.
Lets look at another situation:
Character A is planet busting. Character B punches character A and he takes damage from it. Character A proceeds to beat the crap out of character B. This universe is large inconsistent with power levels.
Obviously character B would not be planet busting (unless he has other feats).
These are both pretty clear cut situations, and obviously there's a grey area, but in the grey area it starts to get even more subjective so its hard to really tell if its valid or not. In that point it would take a lot of time and ultimately come down to personal opinion.
Mario is casually castle busting. Luigi is portrayed as equal to Mario in all of his canon appearances. The Mario universe is pretty consistent with power levels.
Obviously Luigi is castle busting.
Mario is casually castle busting. Mario can never damage Bowser directly in main series Mario platformers. The Mario universe is pretty consistent with power levels.
Again, obviously Bowser is way above castle level.
Regigigas can move continents. Magikarp can damage Regigigas. The Pokemon universe evens out power levels for the sake of balance.
Obviously Magikarp is not continent level. I'm actually probably going to make a long-ish post here going over my method of Pokemon power scaling eventually, since it seems to work out pretty well and I haven't seen too many people use it.
Kirby is planet busting. Meta Knight is equal to him in in-game stats. Meta Knight accomplished everything that Kirby did with the same level of difficulty. The Kirby Universe is a little wonky with it's power levels.
This is where the grey area comes in. Obviously Meta Knight would be planet busting in my opinion. However, many people did not see Meta Knight as planet level due to Kirby's wonky power levels at times. This caused a large disagreement that couldn't really be logically resolved without a lot of research. However, Meta Knight was practically confirmed to be a planet buster in the most recent game, settling the debate.
Kirby is planet level. Meta Knight is planet level. King Dedede is equal to both of them in in game stats. King Dedede can do everything they can do with the same amount of difficulty. The 3 of them are all portrayed as rivals/equals in the lore. Dedede defeated a clone of Meta Knight multiple times. Meta Knight was in a similar situation but he turned out to indeed be planet busting. The Kirby universe is a little wonky with its power levels.
In my opinion this in enough to make Dedede planet level. However, many will still disagree and if they use logic to back it up I can't really say that they're wrong. The important thing is that you use logic to work this stuff out rather than blanket statements like "power scaling is always inaccurate".
A matchup chart may not be the best idea. Knowing the history of threads like these people will likely just get super worked up over one matchup and the conversation will just devolve into an earlier state. Maybe discussing matchups over the "top tiers" would be interesting though. I actually would prefer this thread to stay in some sort of "1-2 posts per week" pacing, with there only being a few people who are posting at all. That way every post can introduce a "new idea" and have a lot of thought put into it. If this thread gets bumped a lot prepare for:
- People getting stuck in an endless conversation over whether or not [insert "god" character here] is "omnipotent" or not. (look at the pages of conversation over Shulk/Rosalina).
- People claiming characters other than "3 second god powers Shulk" are universal due to weird out-lier feats (I was guilty of this back in the day)
- New people jumping in and claiming that [insert character here] is the strongest without giving any evidence or reading the recent posts in the thread. I'm not saying we should keep out new people. People who find this thread on their own usually already did or are willing to put in the research. Just that this thread being bumped a lot would bring in a lot of people who will just post once or twice and contribute little (At this point a certain level of research is needed).
- People claiming that people with confirmed feats are fodder and aren't top/high tier due to their size, some outlier feat, or just random bs (e.g. "Bowser loses to Mario in the rpgs so he is weaker than Mario," "Kirby isn't planet busting because he is 6 inches tall and he's cartoony," Scaling Pokemon based on anime feats, exc.)
Basically, we've reached a point where I feel a "higher level" of discussion is needed, and I think that a slower rate of posting would help that. I am down for matchups among the "top tiers though", since that would be working towards the whole point of the thread in the first place. Though I think we can all agree that an actual "strongest character" won't be possible to find.
I think match up charts could be fun honestly. Regardless of the "tier the characters would be fun. Bayonetta versus Mewtwo could be just as fun as Robin vs Link or Diddy Kong vs Pikachu.
Even if other users give drive by posts I think that's okay. More discussion helps and it doesn't erase high quality ones. That sound good monzer
?
Though you are right in saying some characters definitely have outliers.
I guess, I could start at discussion.
Bayonetta vs Mewtwo
Guess I'll list their consistent strengths and weaknesses
Bayonetta Strengths
Advanced combat training
Very fast reaction time and strength
Powerful magic infused guns on both hands and feet
Ability to conjure torture devices for attacks
Ability to summon powerful demons
Ability to slow down time if she evades an attack
Ability to spawn and use various magic infused weapons such as a scythe, whip or even ice skates
Ability to fly using demon summoning
Ability to use wicked weaves which up her attack power tremendously
Appreciation for fighting
Bayonetta Weaknesses
Average durability
Demon summoning can be unreliable at times
Has to react to something to activate witch time
Mewtwo Strengths
Powerful psychic abilities
Powerful physical and elemental abilities
Very high IQ
Powerful status inflicting or stat reducing abilities
Very high strength, durability, and speed
Teleportation
Ability to recover damage and status
Literally made for fighting and has a savage nature
Mewtwo Weaknesses
Attacks can be used a limited number of times before Mewtwo becomes exhausted
Recovery may be limited
Can be caught in a poke ball
Has not been shown to kill anything in the games, meaning it may have a mental block or inability there
No reality warping or time warping powers
There are probably more, but this is a good list to start with.
As you can see both characters are really strong.
If I had to think about it, I think Mewtwo would come out on top most of the time BUT Bayonetta has win conditions.
If Mewtwo attacks with something Bayonetta can react to, she can activate witch time and kill Mewtwo or at least heavily damage him in that burst. Alternatively, I think Mewtwo can beat Bayonetta, but I don't think Mewtwo can beat one of the demons she summons. Even Bayonetta has trouble with that and needs help from other powerful demons to stop them. If Bayonetta can summon one, even if she dies, Mewtwo is toast.
That said, I think Mewtwo's fast and powerful psychic abilities could incapacitate her, affect her reaction time and/or defeat her. Giving him the win.
What do you guys think? Might as well tag Diddy Kong
as well since he likes these discussions too.
Ok so now's a better time than ever to go over my pokemon power scaling strategy.
How Do We Power Scale Pokemon?
Why Not Use the Stats? Pokemon games tend to balance out their Pokemon's stats in order to make the games more fair. At least, this makes the most sense given the different feats of each of the Pokemon. A Pidgey can damage a Regigigas. If we don't assume that the stats aren't balanced than that would put Pidgey at continental level, a placement that I don't think anyone is comfortable with.
Why Don't We Use The Anime? The anime is not canon is any way to the games. The anime does not have the same concept of levels. The anime does not have moves work the same. The anime does not have type weaknesses work the same. The anime can't even really stay consistent with the strength of each individual Pokemon. Most people on Reddit and the like try to scale Pokemon in the games this way and its actually laughable. The anime is designed to market the Pokemon games to kids. They will ignore the idea of consistent "power levels" to make things look cooler (as they should).
Smogon Tiers?
(I've actually seen someone use these). Smogon tiers are made with the game mechanics in mind that balance out the strength of the Pokemon. Because of this, the tiers are rarely based on raw stats, and are more based on versatility (the tiers are based on usage as to let the lesser used Pokemon get a chance in the lower tiers). Also the difference between the Pokemon in different Smogon tiers is pretty tiny compared to the difference between a Pidgey and Regigias
So The Pokedex?
The Pokedex is very inconsistent and has a lot of weird feats (Alakazam, Magcargo, exc). Despite this, the Pokedex is our only source for feats for most Pokemon. Therefore, we need to use it when scaling Pokemon. However, only some Pokemon have Pokedex entries that describe their feats. This is a huge problem that requires power scaling to find the other Pokemon's feats. We just need a way to see how strong the Pokemon are relative to each-other. If only the games had a built in system that we could use to rank all the Pokemon?
Ok, maybe we do need to use the stats. Base stat total is our best way of accurately scaling Pokemon to each other. If two Pokemon have the same base stat total, we should be able to assume they are on an equal level (think about it, Pokemon treated as equals or "rivals" always have the same Base Stat Total). While we could scale by individual stats as well, the Base Stat Totals are the sum of those stats and correlate the best with the Pokedex feats.
I looked at the base stat totals and Pokedex entries of the 300 highest ranked Pokemon by base stat total. I found a very good trend for the most part.
General data here (I may just share the google sheet here if you want to see that):
720-Universal
680-670-Continental/Worldwide affecting events
600-Mountain Level
580-500-Likely Still Mountain Level, though House level feats are the most common
500-485-House Level
While this data seems good, there are definitely a few problems. First of all, these feats are not the full potential of the Pokemon in question. These feats were all most likely performed by wild Pokemon that are no where near level 100. Similarly, almost all of these entries describe that they can do something, not that that is their full potential or the maximum amount that they can do. Because of this, It can be argued that many of the Pokemon under a BST of 500 (the last mountain busting feat I found was of a Pokemon with 500 as the BST), since they will grow stronger as they train.
Finally, there's the fact that the player character consistently defeats continental level Pokemon. Even if we assume that all the Pokemon are highly trained and fully evolved, mountain busters should not be able to damage or weaken a continental level Pokemon. Normally I would just credit this as an outliar, but it happens so often (once or twice per game) that we have to count it as a legitimate feat. Because of this, I would not cap out the full potential of a 600-500 BST Pokemon to just be Mountain level, as it could be as high as country level given this feat.
There's also the glaring issue of Arceus being Universal. In my opinion people tend to grossly overate Arceus because of this. In my opinion Arceus is anywhere from continent level to possibly planet level, but he is no where near universal. The Pokedex entry states that "it was described in mythology that this Pokemon created the universe." Emphasis on the "described in mythology" part. There is no confirmation that Arceus actually created the universe. While the other legendary Pokemon have mythological feats as well, it has been confirmed by the story line of the game that those pokemon can actually do things like that (E.G. Grouldon and Kyogre both almost killed everyone on earth in the games).
I'll try to scale the other Pokemon too but right not I'm way too lazy to read another 300 pokedex entries.
EDIT: I'll be back with my take on Mewtwo vs Bayonetta soon.
Honestly, I am not very knowledgable on Bayonetta, but hers vs Mewtwo's matchup seems to be a close one. Closest one yet. Before I took the side for Mewtwo when he was up against the likes of Samus and Ness, but Bayonetta is a treat on her own.
I don't know exactly what sort of dynamics would play part here. I think a attack based on a telekenetic force, like Mewtwo does all the time, is a lot harder to avoid than the stuff Bayonetta generally deals with. Physical attacks as say, Brick Break or Low Kick would be far easier to imagine. But I think a highly trained psychic as Mewtwo would then prefer not to use such tactics to win, so instead of going Mega X, it might go Mega Y, which also has the downside of less durability.
What do the demons do that Bayonetta summons? What powers do they have? And why aren't they as reliable?
I have many more questions before I can elaborate. I think the subject so far is fine in the hands of you two gentlemen.
Honestly, I am not very knowledgable on Bayonetta, but hers vs Mewtwo's matchup seems to be a close one. Closest one yet. Before I took the side for Mewtwo when he was up against the likes of Samus and Ness, but Bayonetta is a treat on her own.
I don't know exactly what sort of dynamics would play part here. I think a attack based on a telekenetic force, like Mewtwo does all the time, is a lot harder to avoid than the stuff Bayonetta generally deals with. Physical attacks as say, Brick Break or Low Kick would be far easier to imagine. But I think a highly trained psychic as Mewtwo would then prefer not to use such tactics to win, so instead of going Mega X, it might go Mega Y, which also has the downside of less durability.
What do the demons do that Bayonetta summons? What powers do they have? And why aren't they as reliable?
I have many more questions before I can elaborate. I think the subject so far is fine in the hands of you two gentlemen.
The demons come in a variety of forms, but they're all powerful and are used to brutalize opponents. One of Bayo's favorites looks like a giant dog and is used to eat and rip apart enemies. Others include a quartet of fists, a spider and of course the most powerful, Madame Butterfly. Madame Butterfly is what gives Bayonetta flight, wicked weaves and I believe witch time. Basically, they're incredibly powerful and take a LOT of damage.
Many of them aren't reliable due to being demons, they won't always honor Bayonetta's contract with them and have tried to kill her on occasion. Granted some of the demons have stayed loyal. The fist demon and Madame Butterfly have honored the contract even when it was in their best interest not too.
So from my Pokemon power scaling thing I think it can be assumed that base form Mewtwo's power is capable of moving continents at the minimum, likely even capable of breaking continents casually at level 100 (maybe even higher with the best evs, ivs, nature, items, exc). Mega Mewtwo (both kinds) is even stronger than that. However, we cannot calculate how much stronger he is because bast stat totals don't correlate to canon strength in a way that we can use to extrapolate (only interpolate). However, we do know that Mega Mewtwo is stronger than the already continent busting Mewtwo. Mewtwo can also tank attacks from Continent level opponents as well, though he can likely only survive as few hits.
Mewtwo is way faster than Pokemon who are supposed to be above the speed of sound. So it's pretty safe to assume that Mewtwo is far above the speed of sound.
Bayonetta, on the other hand, is a planet buster. A particularly strong one at that, as she was able to keep up with deities that can destroy large gas planets. I don't really know all the details of this feat, but it puts Bayonetta much higher than Mewtwo in raw damage output. Bayonetta isn't very frail either, as she was able to tank attacks from the planet busting deities if I remember correctly.
Bayonetta is definitely over the speed of sound, likely even faster in witch time (boss battles last seconds in real time in her games). Bullets are apparently frozen in witch time. I think this would probably give her the edge in speed over Mewtwo if she activates witch time. All of this was gotten from her respect thread on reddit by the way (I honestly dislike r/whowouldwin but the reddit respect threads are a good resource).
Now normally Mewtwo would jjust be fodder compared to Bayonetta, but Mewtwo has a lot of hax that when combined with his high intelligence, would definitely give him more than a chance against Bayonetta. All Mewtwo really needs is to use trick room and then he can be faster for sure while also using me first to gain an advantage in raw power. If Mewtwo is faster then he can just spam me first as is. Mewtwo could also use power wap and ain a huge advantage. Bassically, Mewtwo only needs a single move to gain its win condition, while Bayonetta needs to hit Mewtwo once to win. Mewtwo could also use pych up to take the witch time speed boost from Bayonetta as well. Teleport could also help to get Mewtwo away from Bayonetta in order to activate trick room. I know Mewtwo can only have 4 moves and one of them has to be an attacking move but I'm just giving examples of all of his hax. Trick Room, Power Swap, and Amnesia should be enough to give Mewtwo the win.
I'd say Mewtwo takes it most of the time, since Mewtwo is probably faster than Bayonetta without witch time. Bayonetta definitely has a good chance at winning as well though due to the huge go between the two.
Might we not debate what actualy changes characters would have against each other? Like we do with Smash matchups? Say, Melee Fox vs Melee Bowser is estimated at about 80-20. This is a huge win for Fox. We can do it similary here.
Mewtwo doesn't NEED to be limited to 4 moves however. I think this is a pure gameplay point of balance. Naturally, Mewtwo should be able to learn all moves he can learn by Leveling Up. Certain other media has shown him being able to learn moves not naturally learned, for example Pokemon Stadium, where Mewtwo is a boss (summoning himself from a Pokeball lol) ; he uses Psychic, Thunder, Blizzard and Recover. Thunder and Blizzard aren't naturally learned.
Pokken also shows Shadow Mewtwo as a world-dominating treat. Possible hint of destruction even, and it's been shown in Pokken and a certian move animation. Also, the 'normal' Mewtwo's moveset also consists of lightning, fire and ice based attacks. It's not too farfetched for him to have such attacks.
3:50 is where it starts.
I agree Mewtwo would win by hax, most of the time. It could probably tank quite a few hits if able to set up Barrier, which increases durability greatly. It's also likely Mewtwo would try and up his stats before battle. And Mist would also be able to make things increasingly difficult for Bayonetta to increase her speed. It would neutralise all Bayonetta's "stat changes", a thing she's reliant on from what I read.
I would give it to Mewtwo too. 55-45 here, which isn't a major advantage, yet irky for Bayonetta. It won't be a easy win for either however, though it seems far more of a "comfy" match for Mewtwo, however, the changes of being One Shot is greater here than in other matchups.
Mewtwo doesn't NEED to be limited to 4 moves however. I think this is a pure gameplay point of balance. Naturally, Mewtwo should be able to learn all moves he can learn by Leveling Up. Certain other media has shown him being able to learn moves not naturally learned,
Don't a crap ton of trainers and npcs say things like "Pokemon can only know 4 moves at a time," implying that it's part of the lore. The only thing we really have to go by are the main series games, as they are the only canon source in the Pokemon Universe.
Can you elaborate on Shadow Mewtwo? Even if it's a non-canon version of Mewtwo it would still be interesting to see how it would stack up to the other characters. Does it still have Mewtwo's hax?
It could probably tank quite a few hits if able to set up Barrier, which increases durability greatly. It's also likely Mewtwo would try and up his stats before battle
I don't think that barrier and other stat changes could really overcome a gap this big. Large planet level is so much higher than continent level that even being several times more powerful and durable wouldn't account for much.
I don't really think that we can accurately give percentages here. There's so much that we don't know about the characters that trying to come up with an exact percentage would be hard. If I had to give a percentage I would say Mewtwo wins 60-40 probably but really it depends on how fast exactly Bayonetta and Mewtwo are, which we don't really know.
I suggest we just state the degree on different between the 2 (E.G. Mewtwo and Bayonetta are pretty close, Mario stomps Link, Bowser fodderises Mario, Kirby ****stomps mii brawler).
Edit:
So apparently in Mario Odyssey(Unfortunately I don't have a switch so haven't played it yet):
Mario is able to capture and become Bowser with the help of cappy. Would that form still count as Bowser, or would it count as Mario since he's the one whose controlling it? Would cappy be considered part of Mario's standard loadout even though its technically alive? Also, with certain powerups Mario can actually fight and damage Bowser directly in this game too. I think Mario may move up a tier because of this
He wasn't using his full strength as he has no reason to actually hurt Little Mac.
If DK were going all at it, I think Mac would be dead as an adult Gorilla is significantly stronger than a Boxer. And that's not even going into DK's more wacky feats.
So we've been slightly downplaying Sonic's strength on here. I did some research and it turns out that a plethora of Sonic's final bosses (as super Sonic) have been stated to be planet level (check his reddit respect thread). While Super Sonic beats them mostly through targeting their weak points and doesn't seem to be tanking their attacks very well, the fact that he's even damaging them should put him far higher than we (at least I) have been rating him before. Obviously the exact durability of their weak points is unknown, but given that the series goes out of their way to call them planet level, I would say that they should have roughly planet level durability as well.
So yeah I'd say Super Sonic is around Continent level or so on terms of strength. He could probably match base Mewtwo in raw power and speed (obviously Mewtwo stomps with his hax/stronger forms).
From statements by the creators (mini-games are there to "show what Kirby can do") and the fact that Kirby has a few more planet busts we can assume this to use the canon strength of the characters. Anyway this should be sufficient to confirm that Dedede is planet busting.
To be fair.
DK was mostly adhering to a boxing match. He wasn't using his full strength as he has no reason to actually hurt Little Mac. If DK were going all at it, I think Mac would be dead as an adult Gorilla is significantly stronger than a Boxer. And that's not even going into DK's more wacky feats.
Adding on to this, Punch Out was released far before Donkey Kong was revealed to be as powerful as he is, so its fair to assume that they just saw DK as a regular gorilla.
God Shulk solos everyone (aside from Archie Sonic and Dimentio Luigi but those aren't canon forms), so most people just don't include him due to how strong he is. It's definitely a canon from of Shulk though and would pretty much be the strongest character. People tried to argue earlier in the thread that he technically he had outside help/wouldn't be able to manipulate real matter but that's just semantics for the most part.
Don't worry for the most part the thread stuck to the same 10 topics for a long time and didn't make much progress. Just start from page 167 and read up to here and you should be caught up (all of us posted tier lists). Probably check the reddit respect threads for the characters too (though most of them are lacking a bit).
Finally, adding on to my big Pokemon power scaling post, I got some more evidence that Universal Arceus is an out-liar. Obviously Arceus is outclassed by several Pokemon that obviously aren't universal and lacks any actual feats (its just part of legends/mythology), but one of the dex entries states that he shaped the universe "with its 1,000 arms" (go to the diamond entry). This seemingly insinuates that the Arceus we see in the games, even if it did create the universe, isn't in his strongest form to begin with.
I'll probably be back with a match-up chart for some of the stronger characters in a few days.
Edit: said top tiers are . No one else really compares to them right now.
My thoughts on every top tier match-up (this means only planet busters are included):
I recently found out that Base Sonic has beaten a planet buster. While I don't consider base Sonic a casual planet level, I think this should put Super Sonic as one.
Everyone feel free to debate me on anything I say here.
Note: God Shulk stomps everyone.
First let's start by defining the stats of all of our characters:
(Kirby characters have near identical stats and are thus grouped together.
Strength: Large planet level (can blow up Jupiter)
Speed: FTL+ (Fought with a character who can travel from Mercury to Pluto easily)
Hax: Summons, Time stop
(They all have equal stats so I'm putting them together)
Strength: Planet level to large planet level (Pop star has rings and is bigger than other planets in the map of Kirby's galaxy)
Speed: Hypersonic in base (Stated by pause screen to be hypersonic, fights with hyper-sonic enemies)
MFTL+ on warp star (travels across the Galaxy in seconds, traveled to an entirely different galaxy in a presumably short time)
Hax: Quick healing (can hold onto a maxim tomato, Meta Knight can heal to full health 5 times), Black hole (hypernova turns Kirby's stomach into a black hole)
Strength: Continent level (relatively equal to Regigigas, who can move continents). Multi Continent Level as a mega (100 points higher in BST, which correlates to actually strength exponentially. Small Planet Level as Shadow Mewtwo (destroyed a large chunk of the planet).
Speed: Hypersonic+ (vastly superior to Pokemon who have hypersonic feats)
Hax: Disable (stops a move from being used), Pysch Up (copies stat multipliers), Power/Guard Swap (switches stats with target), Me first (If faster than someone, can use the move they were going to use before them with 50% more power), Counter (reflects back a physical attack), Focus sash (prevents one hit KOs, even the weakest Pokemon can survive continent level attacks with this). Protect (fast move that blocks attacks).
Strength: Continent in base (took out surface busting characters), Small planet level as Super Sonic (Killed many planet busters by hitting their weak-spots)
Speed: Hypersonic+ (Do I really need to explain this?). Lightspeed for extremely short bursts (essentially short range teleportation)
Hax: Teleportation, Time Stop
Vs. Kirby and co.
This is battle that really depends on terrain. If they fight on a planet or an object with gravity, Bayonetta stomps due to having way higher speed and strength than base Kirby characters. If the fight's in space I think that the sheer speed of a warpstar would be too much for Bayonetta to handle. She could possibly win with a timestop but I doubt she could get one off in time.
On land Bayonetta 10/10
In space Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight 9/10
Vs. Mewtwo
A while ago I gave this match to Mewtwo. With my current knowledge of Bayonetta's speed, however, I don't think Mewtwo has much of a chance. Mewtwo has a lot of crazy powers that would easily put him in a winning situation, but the issue is that against someone as fast as Bayonetta he won't be able to actually use any of those moves.
Bayonetta 10/10
Vs. Sonic
Bayonetta is massively faster than Sonic and is thousands of times more powerful as well. Sonic doesn't really have any hax that would help him win either. Bayonetta wins this with little difficulty
Bayonetta 10/10
Vs. Bayoneta
See above
Vs. Mewtwo
On land Mewtwo out speeds the Kirby characters, and would thus be able to beat them with his hax (even Kirby's back hole would just get me firsted). In space, Kirby characters stomp due to higher strength and vastly superior speed.
Mewtwo 9/10 on land
Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight 10/10 in space
Vs. Sonic
Sonic Is likely many times faster than the Kirby characters on land. However, the Kirby characters are far stronger than Sonic. Sonic needs weak points to damage planet busting characters, which Sonic doesn't have. Even if he managed to whittle them down to low health they could just regenerate. Sonic does have some black hole resistance that could let him survive hypernova though. However, Sonic ultimately gets completely destroyed given that warpstars greatly increase durability while also doing damage on contact. Sonic would likely just run into the warpstar and die.
Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight 10/10
Also, for the individual matchups between the Kirby characters, Kirby beats Meta Knight and Dedede because they have no answer to hypernova, and Meta Knight beats Dedede since he can heal more.
See above for Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight/Bayonetta Matchups.
Vs. Sonic
Mewtwo actually has a higher speed than Base Sonic via power scaling from other Pokemon (Hitmonchan is Hypersonic with a base speed of 76. Similarly, any Pokemon with boosted evasion can dodge sound-based attacks). Super Sonic might be faster, but the speed multiplier between Base Sonic and Super Sonic is unknown. In terms of power the two are relatively equal, both being small planet busters with their feats. However, Sonic is helpless in the face of Mewtwo's god tier stat manipulation. Mewtwo could easily switch his strength and speed with Sonic if he outclasses him. Mewtwo could also copy the Super Sonic multiplier, making him up to a million times stronger (difference between continent and Small planet is just under a million).
Mewtwo 9/10
All of Sonic's matchups are covered above.
So after all of this, I assigned points to every character based on wins/losses (10/10 victory igves ten points, 9/10 gives 9 points, 1/10 gives 1 point). Everyone is assumed to have a 5/10 matchup with themselves.
My thoughts on every top tier match-up (this means only planet busters are included):
I recently found out that Base Sonic has beaten a planet buster. While I don't consider base Sonic a casual planet level, I think this should put Super Sonic as one.
Everyone feel free to debate me on anything I say here.
Note: God Shulk stomps everyone.
First let's start by defining the stats of all of our characters:
(Kirby characters have near identical stats and are thus grouped together.
Strength: Large planet level (can blow up Jupiter)
Speed: FTL+ (Fought with a character who can travel from Mercury to Pluto easily)
Hax: Summons, Time stop
(They all have equal stats so I'm putting them together)
Strength: Planet level to large planet level (Pop star has rings and is bigger than other planets in the map of Kirby's galaxy)
Speed: Hypersonic in base (Stated by pause screen to be hypersonic, fights with hyper-sonic enemies)
MFTL+ on warp star (travels across the Galaxy in seconds, traveled to an entirely different galaxy in a presumably short time)
Hax: Quick healing (can hold onto a maxim tomato, Meta Knight can heal to full health 5 times), Black hole (hypernova turns Kirby's stomach into a black hole)
Strength: Continent level (relatively equal to Regigigas, who can move continents). Multi Continent Level as a mega (100 points higher in BST, which correlates to actually strength exponentially. Small Planet Level as Shadow Mewtwo (destroyed a large chunk of the planet).
Speed: Hypersonic+ (vastly superior to Pokemon who have hypersonic feats)
Hax: Disable (stops a move from being used), Pysch Up (copies stat multipliers), Power/Guard Swap (switches stats with target), Me first (If faster than someone, can use the move they were going to use before them with 50% more power), Counter (reflects back a physical attack), Focus sash (prevents one hit KOs, even the weakest Pokemon can survive continent level attacks with this). Protect (fast move that blocks attacks).
Strength: Continent in base (took out surface busting characters), Small planet level as Super Sonic (Killed many planet busters by hitting their weak-spots)
Speed: Hypersonic+ (Do I really need to explain this?). Lightspeed for extremely short bursts (essentially short range teleportation)
Hax: Teleportation, Time Stop
Vs. Kirby and co.
This is battle that really depends on terrain. If they fight on a planet or an object with gravity, Bayonetta stomps due to having way higher speed and strength than base Kirby characters. If the fight's in space I think that the sheer speed of a warpstar would be too much for Bayonetta to handle. She could possibly win with a timestop but I doubt she could get one off in time.
On land Bayonetta 10/10
In space Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight 9/10
Vs. Mewtwo
A while ago I gave this match to Mewtwo. With my current knowledge of Bayonetta's speed, however, I don't think Mewtwo has much of a chance. Mewtwo has a lot of crazy powers that would easily put him in a winning situation, but the issue is that against someone as fast as Bayonetta he won't be able to actually use any of those moves.
Bayonetta 10/10
Vs. Sonic
Bayonetta is massively faster than Sonic and is thousands of times more powerful as well. Sonic doesn't really have any hax that would help him win either. Bayonetta wins this with little difficulty
Bayonetta 10/10
Vs. Bayoneta
See above
Vs. Mewtwo
On land Mewtwo out speeds the Kirby characters, and would thus be able to beat them with his hax (even Kirby's back hole would just get me firsted). In space, Kirby characters stomp due to higher strength and vastly superior speed.
Mewtwo 9/10 on land
Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight 10/10 in space
Vs. Sonic
Sonic Is likely many times faster than the Kirby characters on land. However, the Kirby characters are far stronger than Sonic. Sonic needs weak points to damage planet busting characters, which Sonic doesn't have. Even if he managed to whittle them down to low health they could just regenerate. Sonic does have some black hole resistance that could let him survive hypernova though. However, Sonic ultimately gets completely destroyed given that warpstars greatly increase durability while also doing damage on contact. Sonic would likely just run into the warpstar and die.
Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight 10/10
Also, for the individual matchups between the Kirby characters, Kirby beats Meta Knight and Dedede because they have no answer to hypernova, and Meta Knight beats Dedede since he can heal more.
See above for Kirby/Dedede/Meta Knight/Bayonetta Matchups.
Vs. Sonic
Mewtwo actually has a higher speed than Base Sonic via power scaling from other Pokemon (Hitmonchan is Hypersonic with a base speed of 76. Similarly, any Pokemon with boosted evasion can dodge sound-based attacks). Super Sonic might be faster, but the speed multiplier between Base Sonic and Super Sonic is unknown. In terms of power the two are relatively equal, both being small planet busters with their feats. However, Sonic is helpless in the face of Mewtwo's god tier stat manipulation. Mewtwo could easily switch his strength and speed with Sonic if he outclasses him. Mewtwo could also copy the Super Sonic multiplier, making him up to a million times stronger (difference between continent and Small planet is just under a million).
Mewtwo 9/10
All of Sonic's matchups are covered above.
So after all of this, I assigned points to every character based on wins/losses (10/10 victory igves ten points, 9/10 gives 9 points, 1/10 gives 1 point). Everyone is assumed to have a 5/10 matchup with themselves.
Sonic was in super for all of those matches. Super Sonic isn't actually invulnerable. Legit planet level attacks can damage him. Hyper Sonic doesn't have any feats to really measure so it's hard to put him much above Super Sonic. I doubt he could tank a large planet level hit. Even Mewtwo far outclasses Sonic end bosses (who can damage Super Sonic).
Why is Mario in D tier and and Dr Mario all the way in H tier? It's pretty obvious that both are the same person, meaning all of Mario's feats apply to Dr. Mario. (Also, Luigi scales to most of Mario's feats, so he should be slightly below Mario, not 2 friggin tiers below.)
Speaking of which, plenty of characters are getting ****ed/lowballed HARD.
Ganondorf: Hoo, boy. Usually, the Master Sword and light arrows are only said to be the only things that can kill Ganondorf in the Zelda universe because they are the most effective weapons that can kill him. Nintendo's only stated Ganondorf is WEAK to holy weapons and crap, not unkillable by anything other than that. (Even if that were true, the Master Sword would be the only thing that can kill Ganondorf in the ZELDA UNIVERSE. Those statements are only referring to the equipment in the ZELDA UNIVERSE, not all of fiction!). Even that is debatable; Ganondorf has been hurt and even sometimes killed by non holy weapons (ie: He can be beaten to near death with the wooden sword in the first game, there is a part in Ocarina of Time where you need to use either the Megaton Hammer or I think the Biggorn Sword (the latter actually deals more damage to Ganondorf than the Master Sword, just to note), and in the Oracle games, he is straight up killed by a wooden sword (in fact, the Master Sword is an optional post-game item in the Oracle series). Holy weapons are NOT the only thing that can kill him. They are only the most effective. End of story.
Mario/Luigi: Not a whole lot of people seem to think they are quite as strong as they really are. Going off the Super Mario Galaxy games, they have both defeated foes empowered by Power Stars which are this powerful. Plus, they have both dodged FTL lasers (Mario and Luigi Partners in Time), have fought space and time manipulators, can hit meteors with their bare hands (SMG2 final boss), and have survived multiple black holes. They would both be magor threats in this battle, TBH. I don't think either would win, but I just felt like pointing out what they can really do. (Forgot to mention that this applies to Bowser too, who even in the same games that Mario and Luigi do this ****, consistently overpowers and outspeeds them.)
(Side note: Zelda tiers above the Mario Bros, Captain Falcon, Peach, Ness, etc? W-what? I.... I don't understand. Zelda.... actually hasn't done very much that's impressive in her home series sans sometimes helping Link deal the finishing blow. She has accomplished surprisingly little. In fact, Peach of all people beats her pretty easily)
When have Dedede and Yoshi not been shown on par with the others.
In almost all Mario games Yoshi can do certain things that Mario can't do, such as stepping on Piranha plants and killing Koopas instantly without having them hide in their shell. It implies that Yoshi is stronger than Mario. Even in his weakest iterations he's still equal to Mario in in-game stats. I don't think he has any solid destruction feats but he shoud at least be equal, if not greater than Mario.
The problem with ranking Yoshi equal to Mario is that while he has shown to be on par with him in terms of gameplay, Yoshi has not accomplished any of Mario's greatest feats (namely, defeating foes empowered with Power Stars that granted them galaxy-level destruction potential).
(Plus, Super Mario 64 DS confirms Yoshi's actually much weaker physically than Mario and Luigi. Mario has a strength stat of 2/3. Yoshi's strength stat, meanwhile, is a whopping 0/3. I'd place him a tier below Mario and Luigi overall at least.
The problem with ranking Yoshi equal to Mario is that while he has shown to be on par with him in terms of gameplay, Yoshi has not accomplished any of Mario's greatest feats (namely, defeating foes empowered with Power Stars that granted them galaxy-level destruction potential).
(Plus, Super Mario 64 DS confirms Yoshi's actually much weaker physically than Mario and Luigi. Mario has a strength stat of 2/3. Yoshi's strength stat, meanwhile, is a whopping 0/3. I'd place him a tier below Mario and Luigi overall at least.
Yes, I'm aware. I'm pretty sure Mario is also faster than Yoshi in Super Mario 64 DS (could be wrong, though), and Yoshi cannot match Mario's greatest feats of durability (like taking blows from Dreamy Bowser, a reality warper who described himself as having "limitless strength" (of course, I severely doubt he was using his full strength against Mario and was likely holding back, but his power was still demonstrated as insane even when not at full capacity), and surviving being within very close proximity to the sun in the final boss fight of Super Mario Galaxy (not IN it, mind you, just close enough to vaporize you and me)) Yoshi's unique abilities and feats are impressive in their own right, but they aren't really enough to compare with the Bros at their peak, hence why I wouldn't place them in the same tier. Plus, Mario is generally treated as a superior to Yoshi, even if not by much. Peace.
Why is Mario in D tier and and Dr Mario all the way in H tier? It's pretty obvious that both are the same person, meaning all of Mario's feats apply to Dr. Mario. (Also, Luigi scales to most of Mario's feats, so he should be slightly below Mario, not 2 friggin tiers below.)
Mario/Luigi: Not a whole lot of people seem to think they are quite as strong as they really are. Going off the Super Mario Galaxy games, they have both defeated foes empowered by Power Stars which are this powerful. Plus, they have both dodged FTL lasers (Mario and Luigi Partners in Time), have fought space and time manipulators, can hit meteors with their bare hands (SMG2 final boss), and have survived multiple black holes. They would both be magor threats in this battle, TBH. I don't think either would win, but I just felt like pointing out what they can really do. (Forgot to mention that this applies to Bowser too, who even in the same games that Mario and Luigi do this ****, consistently overpowers and outspeeds them.)
I agree with everything else you said but putting Mario and Luigi at galaxy level is ridiculous. Being powered by power stars doesn't mean that they have all the power of those power stars. This would be like saying that anything powered by solar panels is star level because it uses energy from the sun. Power stars are also an ambiguous plot device in general and only really get their feats they have from Lumas, who do their feats through reality warping rather than raw power. Also keep in mind that galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy are minuscule compared to actually galaxies.
Similarly dodging lasers does not make you FTL. Lasers rarely actually travel at light speed in fiction, and pretty much every character has dodge them. You can also dodge lasers by out speeding the thing firing the lasers, not the laser itself (aim-dodging).
The problem with ranking Yoshi equal to Mario is that while he has shown to be on par with him in terms of gameplay, Yoshi has not accomplished any of Mario's greatest feats (namely, defeating foes empowered with Power Stars that granted them galaxy-level destruction potential).
(Plus, Super Mario 64 DS confirms Yoshi's actually much weaker physically than Mario and Luigi. Mario has a strength stat of 2/3. Yoshi's strength stat, meanwhile, is a whopping 0/3. I'd place him a tier below Mario and Luigi overall at least.
First of all Mario is nowhere near galaxy level because of my aforementioned reasons (also even if this was true, Yoshi is playable in the galaxy games so they scale to him). Second of all power scaling needs to be used in debates such as these. We shouldn't expect every character to have feats of their own. If they're shown to be equal to them in gameplay or lore, then they are equal to them and can perform the same feats (within limitations).
Performance>Statements. You're taking a quote from a single game that doesn't even hold true in actual gameplay and acting like that invalidates all of Yoshi's other accomplishments. Yoshi is consistently shown to be not only on Mario's level, but likely beyond it. Yoshi can jump on top of piranha plants, eat things that would normally damage Mario, physically harm Bowser with raw power, exc. Mario is rarely capable of doing any of these things.
Little Mac's foes have some pretty crazy feats (running as fast as a train, knocking bulls dozens of feat in the air, exc), but from what I've heard Ryu has some building level feats and I doubt that Little mac can match those levels of power.
That being said, I'm going to try and research the full potential of Mario and co. I'll be back later with an in depth power scale of the Mario verse (something similar to what I did for Kirby/Pokemon).
This tier list is pretty old. It's wrong on a lot of things but for the most part the more recent lists we've made fix most of them.
I agree with everything else you said but putting Mario and Luigi at galaxy level is ridiculous. Being powered by power stars doesn't mean that they have all the power of those power stars. This would be like saying that anything powered by solar panels is star level because it uses energy from the sun. Power stars are also an ambiguous plot device in general and only really get their feats they have from Lumas, who do their feats through reality warping rather than raw power. Also keep in mind that galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy are minuscule compared to actually galaxies.
.
I only said he was capable of defeating beings empowered with said Stars. I never said Merio was actually as powerful as those beings were.
Also about Yoshi:
"First of all Mario is nowhere near galaxy level because of my aforementioned reasons (also even if this was true, Yoshi is playable in the galaxy games so they scale to him). Second of all power scaling needs to be used in debates such as these. We shouldn't expect every character to have feats of their own. If they're shown to be equal to them in gameplay or lore, then they are equal to them and can perform the same feats (within limitations).
Performance>Statements. You're taking a quote from a single game that doesn't even hold true in actual gameplay and acting like that invalidates all of Yoshi's other accomplishments. Yoshi is consistently shown to be not only on Mario's level, but likely beyond it. Yoshi can jump on top of piranha plants, eat things that would normally damage Mario, physically harm Bowser with raw power, exc. Mario is rarely capable of doing any of these things."
Like I said above. I never stated Mario himself to be galaxy; I said he was capable of BEATING people with galaxy powered stars and crap. Saying someone beats something and saying he's equal to something are pretty different things. I can see the confusion, though.
I also elaborated further on some of the stuff Mario can do that Yoshi hasn't been shown to replicate in a further comment. Mario being much stronger is not the only reason I think he beats Yoshi. Power scaling can work, but only to an extent. IF another character shows feats far above another character and that other character hasn't done something even similar, then that other character usually dosen't compare. Just because Yoshi can accomplish some of the stuff Mario can do doesn't mean he can accomplish everything he can do. Sure, Yoshi scales to Mario's gameplay feats, but Yoshi is never seen doing stuff like destroying castles, surviving massive falls from countless heights (I don't mean the falls in gameplay. I mean stuff like the ending cutscene of Super Mario Sunshine, where Mario falls from a height pretty close to space and survives unschated. Plus, he's survived falling from the Koopa Kruiser in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, and I belive that drop was calculated to be above 3,000 feat, something else that we can't assume Yoshi can do without powerscaling. Powerscaling has it's limits, and overall, Yoshi mostly scales to Mario's weakest feats, not his strongest.
Plus, Super Mario 64 DS's other stat comparisons are reflected by other official media, so I would say that it can be trusted upon to say Mario is stronger than Yoshi. (It IS reflected in gameplay, too; there's plenty of stuff Yoshi cannot destroy ingame that Mario can, it's not just for show) Plus, Super Mario 64 DS is not the only thing saying Mario is the stronger of the duo. Most of the spinoffs/sports games also place Mario's strength as higher than Yoshi's. And Bowser is not the strongest foe Mario has ever faced. Mario has faced many foes far above the strongest ones Yoshi's faced and won. I could elaborate if you want. (Other small stuff, Mario has accomplished most the stuff you say Yoshi can do and not him; Mario can defeat Piranha Plants by jumping (when in fact the most Yoshi has been shown to do is bounce off them, which could easily be attributed to his shoes or something. I want them Yoshi shoes), and he has harmed Bowser physically multiple times (like Super Mario Galaxy 1 and the Mario RPGs
And I do agree. Performance beats Statements (but both have their place): In fact, I went off performance much more to determine Mario is stronger. Not saying Yoshi isn't strong and doesn't compare to SOME of his feats. I am certiantley not saying Yoshi's accomplishments don't matter. They do, a lot, and I don't see how you got the impression I was saying they don't/
Like I said above. I never stated Mario himself to be galaxy; I said he was capable of BEATING people with galaxy powered stars and crap. Saying someone beats something and saying he's equal to something are pretty different things. I can see the confusion, though.
Mario hasn't beat anyone with Galaxy levels of power. Bowser was going to make a Galaxy over time through reality warping and he never used those powers on Mario in the first place. Not to mention that "Galaxies" in the Marioverse are arguably not even planet sized. This doesn't make Mario any stronger than Yoshi as its not even a feat.
I also elaborated further on some of the stuff Mario can do that Yoshi hasn't been shown to replicate in a further comment. Mario being much stronger is not the only reason I think he beats Yoshi. Power scaling can work, but only to an extent. IF another character shows feats far above another character and that other character hasn't done something even similar, then that other character usually dosen't compare. Just because Yoshi can accomplish some of the stuff Mario can do doesn't mean he can accomplish everything he can do. Sure, Yoshi scales to Mario's gameplay feats, but Yoshi is never seen doing stuff like destroying castles, surviving massive falls from countless heights (I don't mean the falls in gameplay. I mean stuff like the ending cutscene of Super Mario Sunshine, where Mario falls from a height pretty close to space and survives unschated. Plus, he's survived falling from the Koopa Kruiser in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, and I belive that drop was calculated to be above 3,000 feat, something else that we can't assume Yoshi can do without powerscaling. Powerscaling has it's limits, and overall, Yoshi mostly scales to Mario's weakest feats, not his strongest.
But the thing is, Mario, Bowser, and DK the the only characters in the Marioverse with consistent feats. Even Luigi barely has any raw destructive power feats. By your logic Luigi would not be as strong as Mario because of this. Obviously, Luigi is equal to Mario, and so should Yoshi. Again, why would Yoshi not be at least equal to Mario? He's been shown multiple times to do everything Mario can do plus other things. The only time where you can really argue that Mario would be higher would be if you count his power-ups or feats from other universes (such as Paper Mario). In that case I would agree with you but when it comes to the main series Yoshi is consistently shown to be greater than or equal to Mario in power in gameplay (piranha plants, eating things that hurt Mario) and in story (physically harming Bowser).
Plus, Super Mario 64 DS's other stat comparisons are reflected by other official media, so I would say that it can be trusted upon to say Mario is stronger than Yoshi. (It IS reflected in gameplay, too; there's plenty of stuff Yoshi cannot destroy ingame that Mario can, it's not just for show) Plus, Super Mario 64 DS is not the only thing saying Mario is the stronger of the duo. Most of the spinoffs/sports games also place Mario's strength as higher than Yoshi's. And Bowser is not the strongest foe Mario has ever faced. Mario has faced many foes far above the strongest ones Yoshi's faced and won. I could elaborate if you want. (Other small stuff, Mario has accomplished most the stuff you say Yoshi can do and not him; Mario can defeat Piranha Plants by jumping (when in fact the most Yoshi has been shown to do is bounce off them, which could easily be attributed to his shoes or something. I want them Yoshi shoes), and he has harmed Bowser physically multiple times (like Super Mario Galaxy 1 and the Mario RPGs
>Reflected by official media
Sports games aren't canon.
>There's stuff Yoshi can't destroy
That's because Yoshi fights via his tongue and not through physical attacks. Attack potency matters more than destructive capability.
Fighting anyone more powerful than Bowser is irrelevant since Bowser>>>>>>>Mario in terms of strength. If the character really was stronger than Bowser Mario wouldn't be able to beat them (without using conveniently placed lava pits and the like). If they were weaker then it doesn't put Mario any higher than Yoshi. Also characters like Dimentio, Dreamy Bowser, exc, are from other continuities. I'm talking about main series Mario.
Mario needs powerups to kill piranha plants in most games while Yoshi does it consistently in base form. Saying it's the shoes is just head canon. The only info we have is that Yoshi can survive an attack from a common enemy, and that Mario cannot. Also I'm referring to main series Mario not rpg Mario (different continuity), an in Mario Galaxy he's only fighting a off guard Bowser that just got his ass burnt, he's not hurting him with his guard up. Basically its the same feat that Yoshi was able to do.
TL;DR: In both gameplay and story Yoshi is shown to be as strong as Mario so he is. Non-canon stats or Yoshi's lack of destructive power feats means nothing when compared to the overwhelming evidence that supports Yoshi being equal or greater than Mario.
Mario hasn't beat anyone with Galaxy levels of power. Bowser was going to make a Galaxy over time through reality warping and he never used those powers on Mario in the first place. Not to mention that "Galaxies" in the Marioverse are arguably not even planet sized. This doesn't make Mario any stronger than Yoshi as its not even a feat.
But the thing is, Mario, Bowser, and DK the the only characters in the Marioverse with consistent feats. Even Luigi barely has any raw destructive power feats. By your logic Luigi would not be as strong as Mario because of this. Obviously, Luigi is equal to Mario, and so should Yoshi. Again, why would Yoshi not be at least equal to Mario? He's been shown multiple times to do everything Mario can do plus other things. The only time where you can really argue that Mario would be higher would be if you count his power-ups or feats from other universes (such as Paper Mario). In that case I would agree with you but when it comes to the main series Yoshi is consistently shown to be greater than or equal to Mario in power in gameplay (piranha plants, eating things that hurt Mario) and in story (physically harming Bowser).
>Reflected by official media
Sports games aren't canon.
>There's stuff Yoshi can't destroy
That's because Yoshi fights via his tongue and not through physical attacks. Attack potency matters more than destructive capability.
Fighting anyone more powerful than Bowser is irrelevant since Bowser>>>>>>>Mario in terms of strength. If the character really was stronger than Bowser Mario wouldn't be able to beat them (without using conveniently place lava pits and the like). If they were weaker than it doesn't put Mario any higher than Yoshi. Also characters like Dimentio, Dreamy Bowser, exc, are from other continuities. I'm talking about main series Mario.
Mario needs powerups to kill piranha plants in most games while Yoshi does it consistently in base form. Saying it's the shoes is just head canon. The only info we have is that Yoshi can survive an attack from a common enemy, and that Mario cannot. Also I'm referring to main series Mario not rpg Mario (different continuity), an in Mario Galaxy he's only fighting a off guard Bowser that just got his *** burnt, he's not hurting him with his guard up. Basically its the same feat that Yoshi was able to do.
TL;DR: In both gameplay and story Yoshi is shown to be as strong as Mario so he is. Non-canon stats or Yoshi's lack of destructive power feats means nothing when compared to the overwhelming evidence that supports Yoshi being equal or greater than Mario.
The Mario and Luigi games aren't like Paper Mario. Nothing states those characters to be separate continuity (I don't know where people get that from, no offense). It still qualifies as main series Mario. I wasn't just referring to the sports games when I said that Mario having superior strength was supported outside Mario 64 DS. Heck, Mario being unable to kill Piranha Plants is just gameplay restrictions anyways, just something added to make it harder. Mario can survive most of the stuff that kills him in gameplay (falls, enemy attacks, etc), so I wouldn't say that makes Mario weaker, IMO. (Plus, when I refer to Yoshi being unable to destroy certain objects in SM64DS, I'm not referring to his tounge attacks. I mean, some blocks can be destroyed by Mario with a ground pound, and Yoshi can't destroy those same blocks even with a ground pound)
When I said Mario could defeat Piranha Plants with a jump, I was referring to Super Mario 3D Land and World, where he can defeat them with jumps (no power ups required). Plus, you could make the argument Mario is holding back his strength; it would corroborate other comparisons of their power. And even if the Super Mario 64 DS manual was all we had, so what? We can still use it. And we can see with the comparisons with the other characters in the game that they ARE referring to physical strength; ergo, it's canon information, and we can use it, end of story. About Bowser in Super Mario Galaxy; yes, he hits him while his ass is burnt, but he still hurts him. Bowser's durability is no different regardless of whether his ass is on fire or not, so Mario hurting him with a physical blow is still every bit as impressive as it would be otherwise.
About the sports games, I've heard Mario does not have a canon (cannot find the source now), but that debate could end up going on for a long time, so let's just leave those sports games behind for now.
The difference between Luigi and Yoshi is that, unlike Yoshi, Luigi in most games Mario has appeared in has accomplished everything he has, and they are clearly intended to be borderline equal (and Luigi doesn't lack destructive feats; he's accomplished nearly everything Mario has, even outside of gameplay. That's the difference between Weegee and Yoshi and other characters). (Also, just saying, I'm not saying Yoshi is incapable of doing everything Mario can; he can clearly replicate a lot of the stuff Mario can do, and I'll coincide, he can even do some stuff better than Mario.
Also, I never said Mario was stronger than Bowser. Where the hell did you get that from? I just said he's capable of hurting him. I get Yoshi does the same thing, so that shouldn't really be used to say one of them is stronger than the other. The fact still remains that even if Mario was much weaker, he was still capable of outclassing beings way beyond his power. Yoshi has too (like every time he's beaten Bowser), but Mario has gone above and beyond that by facing even greater threats and coming out victorious.
I don't just measure the physical strength when putting characters in tiers, I measure how they can stack up against much stronger foes. That's my defense for placing Mario above Yoshi; while they are both comparable in power despite some differences in physicality, I place Mario above him simply for proving on a more consistent basis that he can take down foes even stronger than what the two are usually used to, demonstrating greater capability in dueling with foes out of his league.
TLDR: I consider Yoshi weaker, but not by a significant enough amount to not be comparable to him, he can clearly do many things that Mario can do. I was just posting those examples to show the gaps exist. Those were reasons why I consider Mario stronger, but the big one is his ability to fight foes stronger than himself and the threats he's used to (Bowser), something he's simply demonstrated far more than Yoshi (I don't think he's fought anyone stronger than Bowser. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). He could still beat some of the people Mario has beaten, but I certiantly don't see him coming out on top against, say, Culex or Dreamy Bowser)
Good points all in all, though. You're clearly a very smart man, and I'm enjoying talking with you. I still think Mario is stronger than Yoshi, but I've decided to place Yoshi in the same tier as the Bros (or in his very own inbetween tier) for his potential alone. Heck, I probably should have been more clear when I said he was in a different tier. I would have put Yoshi at the head of the tier underneath the Bros, which still would have been close to Mario's position, because even though I think he's weaker, he's still on a similar footing with Mario most of the time. I should have made that clear. My bad.
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