Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Shyy_Guy595]

For me, this is how the tiers would go:

Spoiler: Tier List in terms of Canon powers and abilities in no particular order

Multiversals

Archie Sonic (Non-Canon)
Paper Mario (still a form of Mario; non-canon)
Archie Megaman (Non-Canon)

Universals

Shulk - Easily seen at the end of his game. Also FTL due to traveling between planets quickly and has precognition as well as some other abilties that increase his stats.

Ness - He held back a universe buster, even if Paula or whatever is the one who ended it. He became one with the world our sonething like that and gained a semi-omnipresence. Also has psychic abilities and other hax.

Rosalina w/ Luma - She's questionably able to warp a universe but should still be fairly powerful otherwise (especially since SMG was calculated to have Solar System to Galaxy level feats, with the Lumas being able to turn into such celestial bodies). However, she DID use her magic to shield Mario and Peach from the explosion. One could infer she could convert that magical energy into an attack. Either way, she's MFTL+ due to consistent Mario Party feats on this level as well as her Observatory that she directly controls being able to traverae the universe and reach the center of it in a quick timeframe. There's also the fact she can summon her Lumas and teleport along with many other abilities including possesion in the form of her astral projection, telekinesis, size manipulation, duplication with a Dpuvle Cherry, and Gravity Manipulation.

Bowser - While not universal in oower without artifacts, he DOES have the durability to survive such an event. This is shown and supported by Galaxy 1's ending and the Prima Guide, which was made under Nintendo's watchful eye, which states he was "shaken from narrowly avoiding a cruel fate" or something along those lines, and he had no protection from Rosalina either. This durability is something a few characters can hope to get by, and he's quite haxxy himself, being able to Time Travel, manipulate Space, Seal other beings, Petrify them to stone, and mant others. With the Grand Stars, he should easily be close enough to this level to justify it as a Grand Star is what powered hus machine before it collapsed without its power and would have destroyed the universe.

Sonic - Really only through his Darkspine form, which is questionably canon. Warped worlds the size of universes, I believe.

Megaman - Only if it's .EXE, however. Destroyed the digital world which was the size of a universe. MFTL+

I guess Mario and Luigi? If you want to scale them to Bowser for being able to comsistently harm him. All three should also be MFTL+ since Bowser someone intercepted two ships in the series capable of moving that fast.

Galaxy Busters

Mario, Bowser, Luigi - Mario Galaxy calcs and all. Pretty debatable though. So note that these are iffy.

Samus - With the powers granted to her in Joey and Samus, she was able to coumter a white hole that was doing significant damage to the universe. Not enough to be universal though. Also likely a one-time power-up.

Possibly Kirby - Magolor's fight had vague Galaxies in the background and it eventually crumbles due to his demise. Master Crown is OP. The new boss from Star Allies can utilize the Master Crown to effect the battlefield which has a couple galaxies in the background and his destruction leada to those galaxies being nowhere in sight afterwards. He's also MFTL+ and hax as all heck.

Solar System Busters

Mario/Luigi/Bowser... again - This one has more credibility due to multiple calcs done on Vs Battle wiki, Narutoforums, and many more.

Probably Bowser Jr. - Was a hindrance to Galaxy Mario and Luigu and gave them some opposition to slow them down. Also had machines powered by Grand Stars, which are Cosmic level artifacts

Questionably Peach - Magic should scale to Bowser's for being his direct counter and she tanked the black hole collapse at the end of Galaxy 2 which was calculated to yield this amount of energy.

Cloud - Supernova. Nuff said.

Probably Kirby - Dark Nebula vaguely released energy that destroyed the celestial bodies in the background. Drawcia also turned a galaxy into paint with time and questionably Claycia as well.

Star Busters

Bayonetta - Killed people who could manipulate the Sun according to her lore. Also FTL+ with time hax.

Maybe Sonic - His Golden Knight form from a questionably canon game shows the main villain warp a world which contained a Sun in it. Also, Infinite's famous dwarf star which is an outlier in base but maybe usable for Super.

Maybe Yoshi - Galaxy would peg his speeds at those above Mario and Luigi's so, MFTL+ probably. And while not as strong as Mario and Luigi, he DID turn Raphael the Raven into a star, which even if it was Kamek's magic, should still scale.

Maybe Captain Olimar - Only with his ship which may be FTL and was said to have a weapons capable of piercing stars.

Planet Busters

Kirby- Obviously.

Meta Knight - Scales to Kirby

Dedede- See above

Mewtwo -Nuked the planet as Shadow Mewtwo and helped hold back that thing in Super Mystery Dungeon that waa makimg the planet steer out of orbit or something? Calculated to be likely in the planet level range as Mega Mewtwo Y. Sub-Relativistic as well and lolmindhax.

Super Sonic - Scales to Dark Gaia who was calculated to be in this range, though it later got revised to be Small Planet level. However, he should scale to the things in Adventure, where planet busting lasers existed and Shadow warped the Ark or whatever before it could destroy the planet. Also maybe FTL.

Megaman - Lots of scaling here. Reay don't feel like going into how many calcs he has. Also MFTL+ and haxxy.

Link - Only with the Complete Triforce at his disposal, as it was shown capable of holding a world togethwr and without it, said world slowly tore apart and lost its life (Lorule). Also Massively Hypersonic+

Zelda - Only with Triforce.

Ganondorf - See above.

Questionably Fox McCloud - FTL and potential planet busting weapons in an Arwimg only.

Falco - See above.

Wolf - See above the "see above".

Samus - What can I say that hasn't already been said. Probably FTL as well and haxxy.

Villager - Possibly this level due to being in possession of the Complete Triforce.

Moon Busters

Wario - Shake King dispersing a huge storm cloud was calculated to be at this level. Later got reevaluated to be Small Planet+ level but... Not too sure about that. Even so, just move him to the bottom of the planet busters. MHS

Continental/Life Wipers

Star Fox Trio - In Arwings/Wolfens.

Corrin - As a dragon, really. Not tok knowledgeable on FE but, apparently wanted to raze the surface of the planet or something. All FE characrer can dodge natural lightning as well, which makes them MHS.

Robin - ONLY with Grima, who's in a simlar situation to the one above.

Probably Ike - Slayed people who were similar in power to the two above.

Roy, maybe - His sword could seal people with similar powers to the ones above

Maybe Marth - Power only really applies to Dragons though.

Link - As Fierce Deity. The Moon grazed the surface of the world and he scales to Majora who would cause it.

Country Levelers

Captain Falcon - One of his feats from the anime was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also in the hypersonic range, I believe.

Donkey Kong - Famous Moon Punch yielded these results. Also MHS+

Diddy Kong - Did the same thing as Donkey Kong, but with his head.

Island Busters

The entire cast of Mario - The RPGs have calcs like Dark Bowser creating a hurricane which yielded an energy output in the gigatons of TNT. Later said it may even be country level, but hasn't been evaluated yet. Mario characters are also haxxy as heck.

Link - Ganondorf busted an island in Wind Waker off-screen, which isbone of the best feats this series has. The calc that put them at Country level has a few problems according to a few experts, which is why I didn't put them higher.

Ganondorf - See above.

Ryu - One of the few characters capable of competing with Akuma, who sunk an Island, I believe.

Pit - His ultimate weapon was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also MFTL+

Palutena - Should scale to Pit

Dark Pit - See above.

Charizard - Has quite a few calulations goimg for him. In the manga him and the other starters all have a feat that seperated amongst them, was calculated in the gigatons.

Maybe Greninja - Some argue all starters should scales to each other. That's about all he has going for him last I checked

Mewtwo - In base form, was able to cause an explosion similar in size to the island he was on.

City Levelers

Lucario -Calcs have been down for lesser Pokémon that yielded results around this range. Also MHS+

Maybe Pikachu - It's beaten plenty of Legendaries and other Pokémon. Could contend with Lucario.

More likely Greninja - Should at leaat be around this level in terms of stats.

Most Mario characters - Super Mario World's castle punt yielded energy in the megatons of TNT and Kamek created a storm cloud that was calculated to be in the high megatons.

Sonic - In base, he could beat Perfect Chaos by himself, who had a city level area of effect.

Town Levelers

Jigglypuff - Scales to the lowest 'mon who aren't the babies, which have feats at this level. Maybe hypersonic.

Maybe Ivysaur - See above

Lucas - Can beat Pokey who has a town level feat, apparently. Also is labeled as the speed of light in terms of combat speed.

City Block Levelers

Solid Snake - Tanked microwave radiation which I believe yielded these results amongst other things.

Lucina - Certain low-tier spells in the series have been calculated to yield these results.

Building Levelers

Mr. Game and Watch - Apparently has feats that put him in the Large Building level amd Hypersonic+ range. Mr. Game and Watch vs Overwatch when?

Pichu -Believe it or not, Magikarp, the most pathetic Pokémon have a KE calculated to be Small Building level due to their absurdly high jumps. Every pokémon should svale to this.

Squirtle - See above.

Star Fox Trio - Outside of vehicles, they're subsonic, possibly more, and building level as Fox can survive long falls and defeat dinosaurs.

Ice Climbers - Superhuman in speed and can harm polar bears who can bring down the building-sized mountain in one stomp.

Wall Breakers

Little Mac - Wall+ level and Subsonic apparently. Close enough to almost be Small Building, but not quite there.

Possibly Wii Fit Trainer - I'm being highly generous to her/him.

Maybe Villager - Can survive axes to the face amongst other things

Duck Hunt - Utilises gunfire which could make them anywhere from subsonic to supersonic, and said gunfire can possibly make them this level. Dogs are also above humans in many areas and birds are among the fastest animals.

Literally just a human

Wii Fit Trainer - We all know why.

Villager -Probably around this level

Possibly Duck Hunt - Gunfire may not be that potent.

Ant tier

Olimar - We all know his canon size. White Pikmin are poison though and with enough Pikmin, can possibly be a threat.

Literally just a toy

R.O.B. - Is literally a toy that came with a videogame.

Please tell me if I missed anyone.

 

[Just a random scrub]

For me, this is how the tiers would go:

Spoiler: Tier List in terms of Canon powers and abilities in no particular order

Multiversals

Archie Sonic (Non-Canon)
Paper Mario (still a form of Mario; non-canon)
Archie Megaman (Non-Canon)

Universals

Shulk - Easily seen at the end of his game. Also FTL due to traveling between planets quickly and has precognition as well as some other abilties that increase his stats.

Ness - He held back a universe buster, even if Paula or whatever is the one who ended it. He became one with the world our sonething like that and gained a semi-omnipresence. Also has psychic abilities and other hax.

Rosalina w/ Luma - She's questionably able to warp a universe but should still be fairly powerful otherwise (especially since SMG was calculated to have Solar System to Galaxy level feats, with the Lumas being able to turn into such celestial bodies). However, she DID use her magic to shield Mario and Peach from the explosion. One could infer she could convert that magical energy into an attack. Either way, she's MFTL+ due to consistent Mario Party feats on this level as well as her Observatory that she directly controls being able to traverae the universe and reach the center of it in a quick timeframe. There's also the fact she can summon her Lumas and teleport along with many other abilities including possesion in the form of her astral projection, telekinesis, size manipulation, duplication with a Dpuvle Cherry, and Gravity Manipulation.

Bowser - While not universal in oower without artifacts, he DOES have the durability to survive such an event. This is shown and supported by Galaxy 1's ending and the Prima Guide, which was made under Nintendo's watchful eye, which states he was "shaken from narrowly avoiding a cruel fate" or something along those lines, and he had no protection from Rosalina either. This durability is something a few characters can hope to get by, and he's quite haxxy himself, being able to Time Travel, manipulate Space, Seal other beings, Petrify them to stone, and mant others. With the Grand Stars, he should easily be close enough to this level to justify it as a Grand Star is what powered hus machine before it collapsed without its power and would have destroyed the universe.

Sonic - Really only through his Darkspine form, which is questionably canon. Warped worlds the size of universes, I believe.

Megaman - Only if it's .EXE, however. Destroyed the digital world which was the size of a universe. MFTL+

I guess Mario and Luigi? If you want to scale them to Bowser for being able to comsistently harm him. All three should also be MFTL+ since Bowser someone intercepted two ships in the series capable of moving that fast.

Galaxy Busters

Mario, Bowser, Luigi - Mario Galaxy calcs and all. Pretty debatable though. So note that these are iffy.

Samus - With the powers granted to her in Joey and Samus, she was able to coumter a white hole that was doing significant damage to the universe. Not enough to be universal though. Also likely a one-time power-up.

Possibly Kirby - Magolor's fight had vague Galaxies in the background and it eventually crumbles due to his demise. Master Crown is OP. The new boss from Star Allies can utilize the Master Crown to effect the battlefield which has a couple galaxies in the background and his destruction leada to those galaxies being nowhere in sight afterwards. He's also MFTL+ and hax as all heck.

Solar System Busters

Mario/Luigi/Bowser... again - This one has more credibility due to multiple calcs done on Vs Battle wiki, Narutoforums, and many more.

Probably Bowser Jr. - Was a hindrance to Galaxy Mario and Luigu and gave them some opposition to slow them down. Also had machines powered by Grand Stars, which are Cosmic level artifacts

Questionably Peach - Magic should scale to Bowser's for being his direct counter and she tanked the black hole collapse at the end of Galaxy 2 which was calculated to yield this amount of energy.

Cloud - Supernova. Nuff said.

Probably Kirby - Dark Nebula vaguely released energy that destroyed the celestial bodies in the background. Drawcia also turned a galaxy into paint with time and questionably Claycia as well.

Star Busters

Bayonetta - Killed people who could manipulate the Sun according to her lore. Also FTL+ with time hax.

Maybe Sonic - His Golden Knight form from a questionably canon game shows the main villain warp a world which contained a Sun in it. Also, Infinite's famous dwarf star which is an outlier in base but maybe usable for Super.

Maybe Yoshi - Galaxy would peg his speeds at those above Mario and Luigi's so, MFTL+ probably. And while not as strong as Mario and Luigi, he DID turn Raphael the Raven into a star, which even if it was Kamek's magic, should still scale.

Maybe Captain Olimar - Only with his ship which may be FTL and was said to have a weapons capable of piercing stars.

Planet Busters

Kirby- Obviously.

Meta Knight - Scales to Kirby

Dedede- See above

Mewtwo -Nuked the planet as Shadow Mewtwo and helped hold back that thing in Super Mystery Dungeon that waa makimg the planet steer out of orbit or something? Calculated to be likely in the planet level range as Mega Mewtwo Y. Sub-Relativistic as well and lolmindhax.

Super Sonic - Scales to Dark Gaia who was calculated to be in this range, though it later got revised to be Small Planet level. However, he should scale to the things in Adventure, where planet busting lasers existed and Shadow warped the Ark or whatever before it could destroy the planet. Also maybe FTL.

Megaman - Lots of scaling here. Reay don't feel like going into how many calcs he has. Also MFTL+ and haxxy.

Link - Only with the Complete Triforce at his disposal, as it was shown capable of holding a world togethwr and without it, said world slowly tore apart and lost its life (Lorule). Also Massively Hypersonic+

Zelda - Only with Triforce.

Ganondorf - See above.

Questionably Fox McCloud - FTL and potential planet busting weapons in an Arwimg only.

Falco - See above.

Wolf - See above the "see above".

Samus - What can I say that hasn't already been said. Probably FTL as well and haxxy.

Moon Busters

Wario - Shake King dispersing a huge storm cloud was calculated to be at this level. Later got reevaluated to be Small Planet+ level but... Not too sure about that. Even so, just move him to the bottom of the planet busters. MHS

Continental/Life Wipers

Star Fox Trio - In Arwings/Wolfens.

Corrin - As a dragon, really. Not tok knowledgeable on FE but, apparently wanted to raze the surface of the planet or something. All FE characrer can dodge natural lightning as well, which makes them MHS.

Robin - ONLY with Grima, who's in a simlar situation to the one above.

Probably Ike - Slayed people who were similar in power to the two above.

Roy, maybe - His sword could seal people with similar powers to the ones above

Maybe Marth - Power only really applies to Dragons though.

Link - As Fierce Deity. The Moon grazed the surface of the world and he scales to Majora who would cause it.

Country Levelers

Captain Falcon - One of his feats from the anime was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also in the hypersonic range, I believe.

Donkey Kong - Famous Moon Punch yielded these results. Also MHS+

Diddy Kong - Did the same thing as Donkey Kong, but with his head.

Island Busters

The entire cast of Mario - The RPGs have calcs like Dark Bowser creating a hurricane which yielded an energy output in the gigatons of TNT. Later said it may even be country level, but hasn't been evaluated yet. Mario characters are also haxxy as heck.

Link - Ganondorf busted an island in Wind Waker off-screen, which isbone of the best feats this series has. The calc that put them at Country level has a few problems according to a few experts, which is why I didn't put them higher.

Ganondorf - See above.

Ryu - One of the few characters capable of competing with Akuma, who sunk an Island, I believe.

Pit - His ultimate weapon was calculated to yield this much energy, I believe. Also MFTL+

Palutena - Should scale to Pit

Dark Pit - See above.

Charizard - Has quite a few calulations goimg for him. In the manga him and the other starters all have a feat that seperated amongst them, was calculated in the gigatons.

Maybe Greninja - Some argue all starters should scales to each other. That's about all he has going for him last I checked

Mewtwo - In base form, was able to cause an explosion similar in size to the island he was on.

City Levelers

Lucario -Calcs have been down for lesser Pokémon that yielded results around this range. Also MHS+

Maybe Pikachu - It's beaten plenty of Legendaries and other Pokémon. Could contend with Lucario.

More likely Greninja - Should at leaat be around this level in terms of stats.

Most Mario characters - Super Mario World's castle punt yielded energy in the megatons of TNT and Kamek created a storm cloud that was calculated to be in the high megatons.

Sonic - In base, he could beat Perfect Chaos by himself, who had a city level area of effect.

Town Levelers

Jigglypuff - Scales to the lowest 'mon who aren't the babies, which have feats at this level. Maybe hypersonic.

Maybe Ivysaur - See above

City Block Levelers

Solid Snake - Tanked microwave radiation which I believe yielded these results amongst other things.

Lucina - Certain low-tier spells in the series have been calculated to yield these results.

Building Levelers

Pichu -Believe it or not, Magikarp, the most pathetic Pokémon have a KE calculated to be Small Building level due to their absurdly high jumps. Every pokémon should svale to this.

Squirtle - See above.

Star Fox Trio - Outside of vehicles, they're subsonic, possibly more, and building level as Fox can survive long falls and defeat dinosaurs.

Little Mac - I believe he's around this level. Not entirely too sure.

Wall Breakers

Ice Climbers - I believe they've had feats on this level. Don't quote me on this though.

Possibly Wii Fit Trainer - I'm being highly generous to her/him.

Maybe Villager - Can survive axes to the face amongst other things

Duck Hunt - Utilises gunfire which could make them anywhere from subsonic to supersonic, and said gunfire can possibly make them this level. Dogs are also above humans in many areas and birds are among the fastest animals.

Literally just a human

Wii Fit Trainer - We all know why.

Villager -Probably around this level

Possibly Duck Hunt - Gunfire may not be that potent.

Ant tier

Olimar - We all know his canon size. White Pikmin are poison though and with enough Pikmin, can possibly be a threat.

Literally just a toy

R.O.B. - Is literally a toy that came with a videogame.

Exists on an infinitely inferior plane of existence

Mr. Game and Watch - Logically shouldn't even be able to harm the characters.

Please tell me if I missed anyone.

Just saying, Villager can obtain copies of the Full Triforce, Varia Suit, Master Sword, Blue Falcon and various other stuff in one game. Some argue it's just decoration, but since the Super Mushroom he can obtain in the same game works like it does in the Mario series, it wouldn't be a strech to assume these also act like their real counterparts.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Then up him up to Planet level if we assume they're legit

 

[monzer]

Ness - He held back a universe buster, even if Paula or whatever is the one who ended it. He became one with the world our sonething like that and gained a semi-omnipresence. Also has psychic abilities and other hax.

The omnipresence is a bit of a stretch since we never really see it in action. Also Ness could go jack squat against Gygas (literally no damage). He's no where near his level. Ness is pretty strong (city-mountain level if I remember correctly) but nowhere near universal)

Rosalina w/ Luma - She's questionably able to warp a universe but should still be fairly powerful otherwise (especially since SMG was calculated to have Solar System to Galaxy level feats, with the Lumas being able to turn into such celestial bodies). However, she DID use her magic to shield Mario and Peach from the explosion. One could infer she could convert that magical energy into an attack. Either way, she's MFTL+ due to consistent Mario Party feats on this level as well as her Observatory that she directly controls being able to traverae the universe and reach the center of it in a quick timeframe. There's also the fact she can summon her Lumas and teleport along with many other abilities including possesion in the form of her astral projection, telekinesis, size manipulation, duplication with a Dpuvle Cherry, and Gravity Manipulation.

Rosalina is too frail to be this high. She has strong reality warping powers but she would get blitzed before anything happens.

Bowser - While not universal in oower without artifacts, he DOES have the durability to survive such an event. This is shown and supported by Galaxy 1's ending and the Prima Guide, which was made under Nintendo's watchful eye, which states he was "shaken from narrowly avoiding a cruel fate" or something along those lines, and he had no protection from Rosalina either. This durability is something a few characters can hope to get by, and he's quite haxxy himself, being able to Time Travel, manipulate Space, Seal other beings, Petrify them to stone, and mant others. With the Grand Stars, he should easily be close enough to this level to justify it as a Grand Star is what powered hus machine before it collapsed without its power and would have destroyed the universe.

Bowser was presumably in the portal that Mario and the others went through so he didn't die. Also even fi he did survive it it would be more of a outlier if anything. Universal durability is so much higher than anything else in the Marioverse that its hard to buy. Especially if its a highly questionable feat.

All three should also be MFTL+ since Bowser intercepted two ships in the series capable of moving that fast.

Its just plot that Bowser was able to tag those ships. Mari and Luigi being MFTL+ makes no sense and we've never seen any character move that fast. Also there's many other ways to hit a fast object than pure speed.

Mario/Luigi/Bowser... again - This one has more credibility due to multiple calcs done on Vs Battle wiki, Narutoforums, and many more.

>Vs Battle wiki
>Credible

Vs Battle wiki is extremely untrustworthy. The tend to **** every character as high as possible using untrustworthy fancalcs, laughable power scaling, statements taken out of context, exc.

Having energy from power stars=/=Being solar system level. Saying that Mario and Luigi are solar system level because of this is like saying that anything powered by a solar panel is Star level.

Probably Kirby - Dark Nebula vaguely released energy that destroyed the celestial bodies in the background. Drawcia also turned a galaxy into paint with time and questionably Claycia as well.

That's more of background change than an actual feat (stuff like this happens all the time in games). The Claycia feat is also a bit iffy since its done over time with reality warping and not with raw power. Kirby and friends are definitely star busters at least though (in the newest game a villain was going to "crush the stars" and destroy a galaxy over time).

Link - Only with the Complete Triforce at his disposal, as it was shown capable of holding a world togethwr and without it, said world slowly tore apart and lost its life (Lorule). Also Massively Hypersonic+

Interesting. Links?

Questionably Fox McCloud - FTL and potential planet busting weapons in an Arwimg only.

Links?

Wario - Shake King dispersing a huge storm cloud was calculated to be at this level. Later got reevaluated to be Small Planet+ level but... Not too sure about that. Even so, just move him to the bottom of the planet busters. MHS

Calcs should only be accepted if they make sense with author intent and in universe rules. The marioverse doesn't abide by real world physics (especially obscure science like cloud dispersion), and the creators obviously didn't intend for the feat to be seen this high.

Just a random scrub
Oh. I thought you were trying to say that Yoshi was like peak human level or something. Nevermind what I was saying, its perfectly fine to put Yoshi under Mario. I'm just trying to say that the 2 are comparable in power.

Also I'm really happy you mentioned the Marioverse's lack of a main continuity. It plays a pretty large part in a big Mario powerscale I'm going to post on here soon.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Just a random scrub
Oh. I thought you were trying to say that Yoshi was like peak human level or something. Nevermind what I was saying, its perfectly fine to put Yoshi under Mario. I'm just trying to say that the 2 are comparable in power.

Also I'm really happy you mentioned the Marioverse's lack of a main continuity. It plays a pretty large part in a big Mario powerscale I'm going to post on here soon.

Actually, I'd say the misunderstanding was my fault. A big flaw of mine is I often fail to make myself clear. Peace, bro.

Plus, soon I'll be trying to analyze macthups with all the Original 12 (against each other), so everyone here will learn pretty soon what I think we should go off for them.

(But about Bowser's alleged black hole feat. I've beaten the game, and I can safely say that Mario and Luigi were probably protected (if we're talking about Super Mario Galaxy 1). Bowser, meanwhile, was right in the middle of the star, so he's the only one who we can 100% accurately assume withstood, it, and ShyGuy_595 was right about the Prima guide describing Bowser as having narrowly escaped a harsh fate. It probably is an outlier, tho. I heard he accomplished other similar feats, so I will be checking them sometime in the future, and I'll determine if those are legit first before I make my final verdict on his durability.

 

[monzer]

(But about Bowser's alleged black hole feat. I've beaten the game, and I can safely say that Mario and Luigi were probably protected (if we're talking about Super Mario Galaxy 1). Bowser, meanwhile, was right in the middle of the star, so he's the only one who we can 100% accurately assume withstood, it, and ShyGuy_595 was right about the Prima guide describing Bowser as having narrowly escaped a harsh fate. It probably is an outlier, tho. I heard he accomplished other similar feats, so I will be checking them sometime in the future, and I'll determine if those are legit first before I make my final verdict on his durability.

I've played through galaxy too (multiple times-its probably my favorite game at this point), but I feel like the feat is just so much higher than anything else we've seen from him that's its hard to really count it. Also the ending for galaxy is really ambiguous and an be interpreted in many different ways.

As I've said before I don't really want to say my actual opinion on Bowser's durability since I want to put it all in a single post about the Marioverse that I should be done with this weekend (there's a crap ton of games and feats so it takes time to sort them all out).

 

[monzer]

The Big Mario Powerscale:

Ok so I'm going to preface this by saying that the Marioverse lacks a single, canon, continuity. The creators of the games have stated a few times that they see the characters as "a troupe of actors" that can take up any role the creators want them too. Because of this many feats will only apply for different versions of a character rather than the character itself. While there's and endless amount of different Marioverse continuities, I'll just be focusing on the 3 "main" story lines in the Marioverse: the "Super Mario" main series platformers, the "Mario and Luigi" rpgs, and the Paper Mario games. While some would argue that all the games share a single continuity, this is often contradicted by the different stories and laws of physics that certain games share with each other. For example, in the Mario rpgs damage is based of stats while platformers solely base damage of off number of hits. Similarly, characters and items that appear in the rpgs don't appear in the platformers and vice versa. The worldbuildign for the different series's all also very different.

The Mario series also contains many character specific spin-offs such as Luigi's mansion and the Donkey Kong Games. While some of these games might exist in their own universe, most of them likely take place in the main series games due to a similar aesthetic and mechanics.

Now that all of that's out of the way its time to actually start listing the feats.

Spoiler: Main Series Platformers

I thinks its necessary to explain how I'm going to scale these feats to the other characters, especially since the series has so many characters. Over the years the platformers seemed to have established "tiers" of strength for the characters in it. While obviously it's contradicted on occasion, for the most part this has held though throughout most of the games. Because of the feats will only scale between characters in the same tier. While some may argue that I can't use scaling at all, In game-play and in story these characters have been shown to be relative to each-other, so I think its fair to scale.

Spoiler: The Tier List

Tier One: Bosses

These are the powerhouses of the series. Without special circumstances our heroes are unable to even damage these characters. Unlike most bosses in the games they also lack and weak points and usually die to conveniently placed lava pits and the like. This tier is the home of (obviously) (Mario usually can't damage him), (The Luigi of the DK games), and (in his strongest robot suits).

Tier Two: Heroes
Still way stronger than everyone else in the universe. Usually playable characters or bosses, these guys are all pretty relative to Mario. I would put and all the Koopalings.

Tier Three: Fodder
Generic enemies that don't pose much of a threat to Mario. None of these are in smash.

I'm sure most of us are aware of Mario's castle throwing feat. While on surface level many (me included) assumed this feat to be a building level feat, it is actually far larger than that. First of all there's the sheer size of the thrown castle. The route that Mario takes just to get to the end is as big as a level, and that's just one route. The castle is likely dozens of times larger than that, and is also roughly twice as large as it is long. There's also the ridiculous speed that the castle is thrown at. The castle is thrown sever times its own length, which as I explain earlier, is as big as an entire level, meaning that this castle is thrown at hypersonic speeds. This feat has been calculated multiple times (I'm usually against fancalcs but kinetic energy is pretty basic physics and its pretty clear that the creators intended the distance to be part of the feat) to be anywhere between town level and city level depending on what assumptions you make (search up "Mario castle feat calc"). Even if we don't even consider the distance and speed the size of the castle alone would make this a city block level feat.

Other significant tier 2 feats come from Kamek. First of all there's Kamek creating a huge tornado that completely covers Peach's castle which should be as large as the other huge castles in the Marioverse and also extends outwards into the clouds, covering another koopaling castle. This feat was been calced at mountain-city level, but I think that this feat is a little hard to scale entirely to Mario as it's not exactly a casual feat for Kamek. Still, this helps to back up the castle feat. Then there's his feat of sending Mario flying all the way to another part of outer space in presumably minutes. While obviously we can't actually calculate this feat, its still extremely impressive.

These feats should scale to every other "Tier Two" character seen above.

Overall I'd say that Mario and everyone relative to him would be roughly small city level in strength and durability.

Then we have Donkey Kong's moon feat. While the Marioverse moon is usually sized just as big as our moon, if we based the feat off that then it would be huge outlier compared to everything else we've seen. It would also be extremely questionable since the moon is only shown to be island sized. However, this feat would still require a lot of force, as its moving a island sized object all the way from space to the ground with a single punch. This feat has been calced at country level I'd say that's a fair level to put this on. There's also the fact that the scene where DK knocks down the moon isn't drawn to scale, so the moon could possibly be even larger than just island sized.

Obviously this feat scales to Diddy since he's the Luigi of the Kong games and is clearly comparable to Donkey Kong in strength (despite being a bit weaker). I would also say this scales to Bowser since he's almost always portrayed as the strongest Mario character. Probably Bowser Jr. too since he's portrayed as comparable to Bowser with his stronger robots. Because of this I think it's fair to consider the top tiers of the series to be country level, if not at least island level.

Spoiler: Mario and Luigi Series

Surprisingly, Mario and Luigi are far stronger than their main series counterparts in the rpgs. First of all, they have canonically defeated Bowser several times, who as we'll see later on, has some pretty crazy feats. Second of all, Mario and Luigi are quite haxy and have lots of ways to easily regenerate. Overall the two far outclass the platformer versions.

Our most significant feat from this timeline comes from Dark Bowser, who spewed out a firestorm large enough to envelop the entire mushroom kingdom and is implied to extend even further beyond. This feat has been calced at island level, however I personally think that this is more of a lowball. The calculation in question assumes that the Mushroom kingdom is as big as the bean bean kingdom from another game. However, the mushroom kingdom is far larger than it appears. As we can see in the other games, the kingdom has many more areas than just the ones featured in this particular game. In some of the main series games (I know its a different timeline but there's some assumptions we have to make) we can see that the kingdom is made up of dozens of gigantic worlds. There's also the fact that the storm is implied to extend far beyond just the kingdom, as the storm continues to expand after covering the mushroom kingdom. It's also stated that the storm would cover the entire world. While this is likely a hyperbole, its clear the storm expanded far beyond what we see it expand to. Overall I'd say this feat should be somewhere around country level. And yes, this scales to Bowser, as his fire breath over powered Dark Bowser's Breath and he is generally shown to be superior to him physically.

Mario and Luigi, comparable to Bowser in these games (though I would say Bowser is still several times stronger), should also be country level off of this. Wario, Peach, and Yoshi, however, are not in these series yet so they wouldn't scale to them.

Princess Peach also has a pretty solid feat of launching Bowser across a portion of the mushroom kingdom in a few seconds. This has been calculated at being roughly building level, so she's likely nowhere near on the level as Mario and Luigi in these games, and the version of her in the main series games is far stronger.

There's also Dreamy Bowser, who is on a universal 4d level with his reality warping and hax. He is still physically country level though, and Mario and Luigi defeated him.

Spoiler: Paper Mario Series

The Paper Mario characters actually have two different forms. There's their Base forms and their pure hearts powered forms ( all have paper forms).

The base forms should scale to Mario and Luigi series characters, as Paper Mario was shown to be on par with Mario in Luigi in Paper Jam. This would make them country level in base, surprisingly making them stronger than the platformer versions of themselves.

Now this is when we get to the fun part. Super Dimentio, a fusion of Luigi, Dimentio, and the Chaos Heart, was going to destroy and recreate the entire Marioverse. The Marioverse is bare minimum made of billions of universes, as every living being on Mario's planet (and possibly even beyond) has a whole universe based off of their dreams. The multiverse grows even large when the "troupe of actors" statement is taken into account. Pretty much every thing that can possibly happen with these characters is arguably a part of the Mario verse. I would highball this from anywhere between quadrillions to even infinite universes. After being powered by the pure hearts, Mario Peach and Bowser were able to defeat Dimentio, making them on this multiversal level as well.

Spoiler: Weird Mario Galaxy Feats

Bowser built a large reactor powered by a grand star that would have destroyed or manipulated the universe if left unchecked. This is obvious a crazy amount of power, but the machine clearly takes time to work properly. that being said it still gives Bowser a crazy addition to his arsenal. Bowser also has control over a huge galaxy reactor in Galaxy 2 that seems to be even planet sized. The reactor is also MFTL+ since it out sped Rosalina's observatory. In short Bowser is stupidly op with his gear.

But here's when things really get interesting. In his second phase Bowser eats a grand star and creates a huge vortex. After the fight ends Bowser's entire reactor is gone, implying that Bowser's attack destroyed it. This would put Grand Star powered Bowser at Planet level with his vortex. Physically he seems to be the same, however, as Mario can still damage him. While Bowser and Mario do survive the vortex, I still think it's a stretch to call them physically planet level.

There’s also power star amped Bowser creating stars in the realms he created in 64. I wouldn’t consider Bowser to be straight up star level, but with his reality warping he could certainly create one. Mario also defeats bosses powered by power stars as well. Overall there’e A pretty solid argument for Mario and Bowser being star level with sufficient power stars because of this, but due to the ambiguousness of it I don’t completely buy it.

Rosalina was able to survive the destruction of the universe and even recreated it with the power of her lumas. Contrary to poplar belief it seems like this power comes from the lumas rather than from Rosalina herself. She also has her MFTL+ observatory.

TL;DR Haxxed out Bowser is ridiculous.

 

[Just a random scrub]

The Big Mario Powerscale:

Ok so I'm going to preface this by saying that the Marioverse lacks a single, canon, continuity. The creators of the games have stated a few times that they see the characters as "a troupe of actors" that can take up any role the creators want them too. Because of this many feats will only apply for different versions of a character rather than the character itself. While there's and endless amount of different Marioverse continuities, I'll just be focusing on the 3 "main" story lines in the Marioverse: the "Super Mario" main series platformers, the "Mario and Luigi" rpgs, and the Paper Mario games. While some would argue that all the games share a single continuity, this is often contradicted by the different stories and laws of physics that certain games share with each other. For example, in the Mario rpgs damage is based of stats while platformers solely base damage of off number of hits. Similarly, characters and items that appear in the rpgs don't appear in the platformers and vice versa. The worldbuildign for the different series's all also very different.

The Mario series also contains many character specific spin-offs such as Luigi's mansion and the Donkey Kong Games. While some of these games might exist in their own universe, most of them likely take place in the main series games due to a similar aesthetic and mechanics.

Now that all of that's out of the way its time to actually start listing the feats.

Spoiler: Main Series Platformers

I thinks its necessary to explain how I'm going to scale these feats to the other characters, especially since the series has so many characters. Over the years the platformers seemed to have established "tiers" of strength for the characters in it. While obviously it's contradicted on occasion, for the most part this has held though throughout most of the games. Because of the feats will only scale between characters in the same tier. While some may argue that I can't use scaling at all, In game-play and in story these characters have been shown to be relative to each-other, so I think its fair to scale.

Spoiler: The Tier List

Tier One: Bosses

These are the powerhouses of the series. Without special circumstances our heroes are unable to even damage these characters. Unlike most bosses in the games they also lack and weak points and usually die to conveniently placed lava pits and the like. This tier is the home of (obviously) (Mario usually can't damage him), (The Luigi of the DK games), and (in his strongest robot suits).

Tier Two: Heroes
Still way stronger than everyone else in the universe. Usually playable characters or bosses, these guys are all pretty relative to Mario. I would put and all the Koopalings.

Tier Three: Fodder
Generic enemies that don't pose much of a threat to Mario. None of these are in smash.

I'm sure most of us are aware of Mario's castle throwing feat. While on surface level many (me included) assumed this feat to be a building level feat, it is actually far larger than that. First of all there's the sheer size of the thrown castle. The route that Mario takes just to get to the end is as big as a level, and that's just one route. The castle is likely dozens of times larger than that, and is also roughly twice as large as it is long. There's also the ridiculous speed that the castle is thrown at. The castle is thrown sever times its own length, which as I explain earlier, is as big as an entire level, meaning that this castle is thrown at hypersonic speeds. This feat has been calculated multiple times (I'm usually against fancalcs but kinetic energy is pretty basic physics and its pretty clear that the creators intended the distance to be part of the feat) to be anywhere between town level and city level depending on what assumptions you make (search up "Mario castle feat calc"). Even if we don't even consider the distance and speed the size of the castle alone would make this a city block level feat.

Other significant tier 2 feats come from Kamek. First of all there's Kamek creating a huge tornado that completely covers Peach's castle which should be as large as the other huge castles in the Marioverse and also extends outwards into the clouds, covering another koopaling castle. This feat was been calced at mountain-city level, but I think that this feat is a little hard to scale entirely to Mario as it's not exactly a casual feat for Kamek. Still, this helps to back up the castle feat. Then there's his feat of sending Mario flying all the way to another part of outer space in presumably minutes. While obviously we can't actually calculate this feat, its still extremely impressive.

These feats should scale to every other "Tier Two" character seen above.

Overall I'd say that Mario and everyone relative to him would be roughly small city level in strength and durability.

Then we have Donkey Kong's moon feat. While the Marioverse moon is usually sized just as big as our moon, if we based the feat off that then it would be huge outlier compared to everything else we've seen. It would also be extremely questionable since the moon is only shown to be island sized. However, this feat would still require a lot of force, as its moving a island sized object all the way from space to the ground with a single punch. This feat has been calced at country level I'd say that's a fair level to put this on. There's also the fact that the scene where DK knocks down the moon isn't drawn to scale, so the moon could possibly be even larger than just island sized.

Obviously this feat scales to Diddy since he's the Luigi of the Kong games and is clearly comparable to Donkey Kong in strength (despite being a bit weaker). I would also say this scales to Bowser since he's almost always portrayed as the strongest Mario character. Probably Bowser Jr. too since he's portrayed as comparable to Bowser with his stronger robots. Because of this I think it's fair to consider the top tiers of the series to be country level, if not at least island level.

Spoiler: Mario and Luigi Series

Surprisingly, Mario and Luigi are far stronger than their main series counterparts in the rpgs. First of all, they have canonically defeated Bowser several times, who as we'll see later on, has some pretty crazy feats. Second of all, Mario and Luigi are quite haxy and have lots of ways to easily regenerate. Overall the two far outclass the platformer versions.

Our most significant feat from this timeline comes from Dark Bowser, who spewed out a firestorm large enough to envelop the entire mushroom kingdom and is implied to extend even further beyond. This feat has been calced at island level, however I personally think that this is more of a lowball. The calculation in question assumes that the Mushroom kingdom is as big as the bean bean kingdom from another game. However, the mushroom kingdom is far larger than it appears. As we can see in the other games, the kingdom has many more areas than just the ones featured in this particular game. In some of the main series games (I know its a different timeline but there's some assumptions we have to make) we can see that the kingdom is made up of dozens of gigantic worlds. There's also the fact that the storm is implied to extend far beyond just the kingdom, as the storm continues to expand after covering the mushroom kingdom. It's also stated that the storm would cover the entire world. While this is likely a hyperbole, its clear the storm expanded far beyond what we see it expand to. Overall I'd say this feat should be somewhere around country level. And yes, this scales to Bowser, as his fire breath over powered Dark Bowser's Breath and he is generally shown to be superior to him physically.

Mario and Luigi, comparable to Bowser in these games (though I would say Bowser is still several times stronger), should also be country level off of this. Wario, Peach, and Yoshi, however, are not in these series yet so they wouldn't scale to them.

Princess Peach also has a pretty solid feat of launching Bowser across a portion of the mushroom kingdom in a few seconds. This has been calculated at being roughly building level, so she's likely nowhere near on the level as Mario and Luigi in these games, and the version of her in the main series games is far stronger.

There's also Dreamy Bowser, who is on a universal 4d level with his reality warping and hax. He is still physically country level though, and Mario and Luigi defeated him.

Spoiler: Paper Mario Series

The Paper Mario characters actually have two different forms. There's their Base forms and their pure hearts powered forms ( all have paper forms).

The base forms should scale to Mario and Luigi series characters, as Paper Mario was shown to be on par with Mario in Luigi in Paper Jam. This would make them country level in base, surprisingly making them stronger than the platformer versions of themselves.

Now this is when we get to the fun part. Super Dimentio, a fusion of Luigi, Dimentio, and the Chaos Heart, was going to destroy and recreate the entire Marioverse. The Marioverse is bare minimum made of billions of universes, as every living being on Mario's planet (and possibly even beyond) has a whole universe based off of their dreams. The multiverse grows even large when the "troupe of actors" statement is taken into account. Pretty much every thing that can possibly happen with these characters is arguably a part of the Mario verse. I would highball this from anywhere between quadrillions to even infinite universes. After being powered by the pure hearts, Mario Peach and Bowser were able to defeat Dimentio, making them on this multiversal level as well.

Spoiler: Weird Mario Galaxy Feats

Bowser built a large reactor powered by a grand star that would have destroyed or manipulated the universe if left unchecked. This is obvious a crazy amount of power, but the machine clearly takes time to work properly. that being said it still gives Bowser a crazy addition to his arsenal. Bowser also has control over a huge galaxy reactor in Galaxy 2 that seems to be even planet sized. The reactor is also MFTL+ since it out sped Rosalina's observatory. In short Bowser is stupidly op with his gear.

But here's when things really get interesting. In his second phase Bowser eats a grand star and creates a huge vortex. After the fight ends Bowser's entire reactor is gone, implying that Bowser's attack destroyed it. This would put Grand Star powered Bowser at Planet level with his vortex. Physically he seems to be the same, however, as Mario can still damage him. While Bowser and Mario do survive the vortex, I still think it's a stretch to call them physically planet level.

There’s also power star amped Bowser creating stars in the realms he created in 64. I wouldn’t consider Bowser to be straight up star level, but with his reality warping he could certainly create one. Mario also defeats bosses powered by power stars as well. Overall there’e A pretty solid argument for Mario and Bowser being star level with sufficient power stars because of this, but due to the ambiguousness of it I don’t completely buy it.

Rosalina was able to survive the destruction of the universe and even recreated it with the power of her lumas. Contrary to poplar belief it seems like this power comes from the lumas rather than from Rosalina herself. She also has her MFTL+ observatory.

TL;DR Haxxed out Bowser is ridiculous.

Great job!

Just a small nitpick; as I said earlier, I would consider the Mario and Luigi series to be a part of the regular, mainstream Mario series, because while Nintendo basically went out of their way with Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam to clarify that Paper Mario and Mario are NOT the same person, they haven't said anything of the like for Mario and Luigi, plus, they have never said that Mario and Luigi was a different universe or had a separate timeline or anything of the like, ever, so, in my eyes, it's perfectly valid to consider it mainstream. Using the fact both have different mechanics, like the damage dealing system being different, is a pretty weak excuse, as the whole "shrink when getting hit" thing is a gameplay mehanic that has been contradicted multiple times in the cutscenes of many of the platformers alone, and besides, Super Mario 64, Sunshine, and the Galaxy games didn't feature you shrinking upon getting hit. I'd say more, but I'm about to release my stance on Mario's overall power relative to the rest of the Original 12, so I'll leave it at that right now. I should post my Mario analysis later today.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Hey guys, I just found an extremely crazy feat for Mario from Super Mario RPG that just may change things entirely (should it be valid). It's related to Culex, the bonus boss.

Culex states to be able to consume time When Mario fights Culex, the latter is essentially consuming movement and change. Therefore, no movement nor change should occur. Yet, Mario is fighting Culex, moving, etc. So, as my friend told me, Mario is basically moving in a timeless realm. That's..... crazy as hell. Thoughts?

 

[monzer]

Great job!

Just a small nitpick; as I said earlier, I would consider the Mario and Luigi series to be a part of the regular, mainstream Mario series, because while Nintendo basically went out of their way with Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam to clarify that Paper Mario and Mario are NOT the same person, they haven't said anything of the like for Mario and Luigi, plus, they have never said that Mario and Luigi was a different universe or had a separate timeline or anything of the like, ever, so, in my eyes, it's perfectly valid to consider it mainstream.

It’s more than just the damage mechanics. The entire way the games work is different. Different items, different power scaling, different locations, different lore, different characters. Theres also the special attack system, and characters getting stronger over time whitch are so far removed from the platformers that I find it hard to consider them the same storyline.

Hey guys, I just found an extremely crazy feat for Mario from Super Mario RPG that just may change things entirely (should it be valid). It's related to Culex, the bonus boss.

Culex states to be able to consume time When Mario fights Culex, the latter is essentially consuming movement and change. Therefore, no movement nor change should occur. Yet, Mario is fighting Culex, moving, etc. So, as my friend told me, Mario is basically moving in a timeless realm. That's..... crazy as hell. Thoughts?

I think it’s hard to quantify exactly what Culex is doing. It’s a bit of a stretch to say Mario is above time or anything. However if we highball Mario I would say that he’s resistant to time manipulation.

 

[Just a random scrub]

It’s more than just the damage mechanics. The entire way the games work is different. Different items, different power scaling, different locations, different lore, different characters. Theres also the special attack system, and characters getting stronger over time whitch are so far removed from the platformers that I find it hard to consider them the same storyline.



I think it’s hard to quantify exactly what Culex is doing. It’s a bit of a stretch to say Mario is above time or anything. However if we highball Mario I would say that he’s resistant to time manipulation.

So what if the gameplay is different? So what if many characters appear that don't otherwise appear? Many characters that are obviously in the main Mario verse (like Donkey Kong) haven't made that many appearances in recent Mario platformers, so that's no reason to argue they are different universes. Different settings? Many different settings are explored in nearly every Mario platformer. Just because characters/settings exist doesn't mean we have to see them in every ****ing game. Lore is also a weak point, as not even the main Mario platformers have the exact same story every single time (though it certiantly seems like that sometimes). It's really more of a twist on the basic formula. Almost everything different about the games has barely (if any) effect on well, anything regarding it's canoncity

Heck, a lot of the Mario platformers contain some differing mechanics from other Mario platformers. Does that mean those are different universes too? Heck, even then, I fail to see how gameplay is relevant to whether a game is canon or not overall, and I don't really understand why many people use it as an argument, especially since the different mechanics in the series are not reflected anywhere in the series but the gameplay. No reference to said physics pop up in the cutscenes or story.

Agreed on the Culex feat though

 

[SwagGuy99]

The answer here depends on whether we are going off their smash moveset or their appearances in their home series.

By home series appearances I would say . are the strongest for obvious reasons. Giant Robots, magic, sheer strength, and invincibility. Next up would be the powerful, but not OP characters like . Next comes the less powerful in terms of special magic or robotic etc. and the characters who aren't abnormal but are very strong or carry magic items or dangerous objects like . The last group are the normal characters who don't really have any special magic abilities and are just average Joes but got into Smash anyhow. They are .

 

[monzer]

I heavily downplayed the power star level Mario characters when I scaled them a week ago. At the time I wasn't aware of any hard feats, but I've done some digging and now I can safely scale them to a much higher degree than before.

Spoiler: Mario's ridiculous speed

After Mario gets to a power star in Mario galaxy, he physically flies back to the observatory, presumably in minutes. Since the observatory is already MFTL+ on its own, and the fact that Mario is flying there from an entirely different part of the universe, this puts Mario and everyone who scales to him as being faster than even the warp star powered Kirby characters. While some might say that Mario is only getting the speed from a power star, Mario naturally has a power star level boost in this game from master luma, and is shown out speeding power star boosted characters.

>tfw Mario is faster than Sonic

Spoiler: Mario and Bowser's insane power

In my last Mario powerscale post I already showed Bowser's feat of obliterating his galaxy reactor. At the time I said that Bowser's reactor was planet sized, however I now have confirmation that the reactor was at least star sized. In a few of Bowser's reactors, a star in seen in nearby. Obviously, Bowser's main reactor should be bigger than the others (we can also visibly see it as being larger), so the reactor should be star sized bare minimum. Since Bowser and Mario survived this attack with no damage, they should both have star level durability. Obviously Mario and Bowser can hurt eachother (Mario needs special circumstances but he can still do it), so they both have star level attack power as well.

Its also important to note that nothing in Mario galaxy is shown to scale, so the planets and stars that Mario travels through in the Galaxy levels might very well be as big as actual stars and planets if they were drawn to scale (wouldn't it be a weird coincidence if every single planet and star he travels through throughout both games is that small, especially since normal sized planets exist). If we look at the game this way it becomes even more apparent that Bowser's reactor was at least large star sized.

Spoiler: Who this scales too and how strong this makes them

Pretty much every character powered by a power star scales to this. The power stars don't discriminate with who they can boost, and in 64 their very presence was powering Bowser's entire army. Because of this, every character in the marioverse should have their peak power be on this level.

All receive power star boosts throughout 64 and Galaxy 1 and 2, so they're all MFTL+ and star level. Never get a canon boost of this sort, but they could very easily obtain one if they get their hands on a power star.

Obviously the universal level characters would win, but among the "normal" characters I honestly doubt anyone else but highballed can beat them at this point (multi solar system level by defeating enemies who created/were going to destroy galaxies over time and enemies who manipulated multiple stars). The lowballed Kirby cast would stand no chance due to a speed difference in Mario's favor.

Also.

Spoiler: Olimar's true power

Olimar's ship, the SS dolphin, not only travels at "super light speed," but is also stated to destroy stars. With his ship on his side I bet that Oilimar could foderize anyone short of the higher tiers (basically anyone slower than FTL and weaker than star level loses). Poor Olimar, we've been downplaying him this whole time.

 

[monzer]

New Tier List:

Anime/non canon continuities (i.e archie comics) are not included (with the exception of falcon since all of his feats are form the anime).

Tiers are sorted into sub-tiers indicated by line breaks.

Spoiler: Universal+ Onwards

In Super Paper Mario, the crew, while powered by the pure hearts, were able to fight superdimentio, who was going to destroy the huge Mario multiverse. This puts them anywhere from billions of times universal to multiversal/5D.



He got 4d Universal powers for a few seconds at the end of the game.

Spoiler: Planet/Star Level

Bowser created a large vortex that destroyed his star sized (bare minimum) reactor. Mario and Bowser were both left unscathed by this. Bowser has also created multiple stars while powered by power stars. Similarly, Mario can travel back to the observatory from distant galaxies while given a power star level boost. Bowser also managed to hit Lubba's spaceship, which can travel between galaxies. Everyone given a power star or power star equivalent boost should be here.

Kirby has fought and defeated Claycia and Drawcia, both of which created galaxies over time. Similarly, Necrodeus turned over a hundred suns into small objects. Finally, Void Termina was going to destroy "everything" (presumably over time) and "crush the stars". "Everything" at least refers to the galaxy, as the game takes place there. This would put the Kirby case at Large star level bare minimum, but they could easily be multi solar system level as well (there’s a few feats that support this but they're a little iffy). And yes, all of this scales to Meta Knight and Dedede, as Kirby needed their help to defeat Void Termina and Magolor, and both of them consistently rival him. Kirby can travel between galaxies with a warp star, and can arguably keep up with enemies capable of traversing a galaxy even without one (Marx travels this fast in milky way wishes and Kirby keeps up with him).



Bayonetta can destroy large gas planets such as Jupiter and keep up with Jubeleus, who can travel around the solar system in seconds. Shadow Mewtwo can planet bust and has a lot of stat manipulation powers. Olimar is stated to be able to star bust and travel at Light-speed while in his space ship. Rosalina can travel between galaxies in her observatory and also has lumas, which can turn into galaxies at their peak and even restart the universe. With her observatory and lumas she should be fall here. Sonic has defeated planet busters and has a lot of Massively hypersonic+ feats.

Spoiler: Nigh Planet Level

Cloud is supposedly continent level for being superior to a guy who could destroy continents (not knowledgeable at all about final fantasy so I can't 100% attest to this). Andross can easily manipulate continents and the the star fox crew can defeat him (also ftl speed on arwings). Shulk defeated enemies far larger than the moon even without god powers and is also ftl for traveling around the solar system.

Spoiler: Island/Country Level

Donkey Kong knocked an island sized (likely far larger) moon out of orbit and Bowser and Bowser Jr. should scale to him. Bowser also fought Dark Bowser, who created a huge storm capable of engulfing the mushroom kingdom and extends far beyond it. Mario and Luigi can also damage Bowser in this game and beat him in a straight fight. Pit destroyed a small country/island sized structure and Dark Pit and Palutena obviously scale to him. Most notably though, they can traverse the galaxy putting their speed on a level far above anyone else in their tier and even the one above it. Ike at max power is on par with people who can flood the world with physical power. This is calced at continent level.


Ridley can destroy large islands and Samus is capable of fighting with him and defeating him. She's in her own tier for being far above anyone below her, but not being quite on the level as the country busters above her.

Spoiler: Nuclear

Machamp and several other Pokemon comparable to these guys are stated to be mountain busting (Charizard is stated to melt mountains). Mountains in the Pokemon world are huge and are a solid percentage of regions, which are small countries. Also massively hypersonic for being faster than lightning. Note that none of these feats are done at full power/level 100. If highballed they would be much higher via defeating legendary Pokemon, which are continent level.


Corrin is on par with a guy who destroyed a city. Mario is here most consistently and the rest of the cast scales to him.

(anime)
Captain Falcon is here based on his anime feats, where he fought a guy who destroyed a large space station. Lucas and Ness both scale to a town busting opponent who fought using a nuclear reactor.

Spoiler: Building Level

All of these guys can destroy buildings based on feats/statements. All of the feats are already explained in this thread so I don't want to get into them.

Spoiler: Superhuman

Standard superhuman stuff. Can do things like tank bullets, break walls, exc. Nothing special but far above a standard human.

Spoiler: Human

Normal people.

Spoiler: Subhuman

Really small, not even alive.

4/24/2018 Edit:

Looks like this thread is comatose again. Judging by prior events it'll probably come back to life in a month or two. Overall I feel like my current tier list is very accurate right now (I knew I said that for basically every one I made but as of now I'm fully ingrained in the "vs" community and know where to do good research).

In the meantime I'll probably post minor updates here if a character gets a new feat or something. I may even make a youtube video about this. Really there's a lot of misconceptions people have about the power levels of some of these characters and I'd like to get the word out and fix some of them.

Just a random scrub How's that original 12 matchup thing going?

 

[DjinnandTonic]

I do like the 'general destructive power' tiers, but how do people see special abilities that aren't directly related to destruction?

For example:
Copying another character's powers (e.g. Kirby, Megaman)
Time Manipulation (e.g. Bayonetta, Samus, Cloud w/ Materia, potentially Megaman, etc.)
Rushdown before another, obviously stronger character can act (Sonic vs. reality-warpers like Shulk/Rosetta)
Invincibility / Selective Immunity to certain powers (e.g. Ganondorf, Marth w/ FE1 Falchion)
Mind Control / Possession (e.g. Mewtwo, Ness/Lucas, Odyssey Mario, etc.)
Future sight (e.g. Shulk, Palutena, potentially Mewtwo, potentially Pokemon Trainer w/ full pokedex access)
Skilled usage of abilities vs. Raw Power (Robin can turn into a continent-destroying dragon, but s/he doesn't have much control over how to use that power, whereas someone like Solid Snake has expert precision and tactical abilities, but even his strongest arsenal isn't on the same tier as Grima!Robin's raw power, even if Snake would have no trouble targeting GrimaRobin's weakpoints and taking it out just like the heroes in Fire Emblem Awakening did.)

Just curious how people view these sorts of else-cases.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Just a random scrub How's that original 12 matchup thing going?

It's...... kinda fallen beneath me. I have been caught up with other stuff lately.

 

[monzer]

Copying another character's powers (e.g. Kirby, Megaman)

Kirby's copying only really works if he's more powerful than the other character. The only people who it would work on are weak enough that Kirby would beat them easily anyway. Megaman's power copying from what I've seen only work after he's already defeated the character (if this isn't the case correct me, I've only played a few Megaman games).

Time Manipulation (e.g. Bayonetta, Samus, Cloud w/ Materia, potentially Megaman, etc.)

It counts as a speed boost usually. Permanent time stop and instant time travel usually give characters infinite/immeasurable speed, although no smash character have it. obviously it helps the character who have it but it's not enough to boost them up an entire tier.

Rushdown before another, obviously stronger character can act (Sonic vs. reality-warpers like Shulk/Rosetta)

Shulk should have universal durability as well since he survived his own universal warping. Rosalina without her observatory can definitely be out-speed and beaten by Sonic easily due to her city level durability. However a lot of characters do passive damage on contact, so the faster character would just die when they hit them. (Also most characters in smash have more durability than they do offense)

Invincibility / Selective Immunity to certain powers (e.g. Ganondorf, Marth w/ FE1 Falchion)

A lot of the time you can invoke no limits fallacy for stuff like this. A lot of characters have light based attacks that could harm Ganondorf/Marth. Even without those powers a sufficiently powerful character could still defeat them via suffocation, reality warping, obliteration, permanently trapping them, starving them, exc.

Mind Control / Possession (e.g. Mewtwo, Ness/Lucas, Odyssey Mario, etc.)

Pretty broken but again this can be a no limits fallacy kind of thing. Some of these abilities may not be able to work against characters who are too powerful/have mind control/resistance powers as well. Speed is also a huge factor as the have to actually hit the other character with the mind control. Really you have to look at this stuff at a case by case basis.

Future sight (e.g. Shulk, Palutena, potentially Mewtwo, potentially Pokemon Trainer w/ full pokedex access)

Broken at it's peak but a lot of these characters have limited future sight. At it's peak a future sight person should be able to win most fights that thye have a reasonable chance at (obviously in some cases the other character is still just too fast/powerful for the character to even do anything).

Skilled usage of abilities vs. Raw Power (Robin can turn into a continent-destroying dragon, but s/he doesn't have much control over how to use that power, whereas someone like Solid Snake has expert precision and tactical abilities, but even his strongest arsenal isn't on the same tier as Grima!Robin's raw power, even if Snake would have no trouble targeting GrimaRobin's weakpoints and taking it out just like the heroes in Fire Emblem Awakening did.)

Depends. With smaller gaps in power skill ca be very important, but a character up an entire tier can be thousands of times stronger than the other character. At that point skill is pretty irrelevant.

In the list I made a while ago a tried to include other factors that just raw strength (i.e. Olimar being with the planet busters rather than the other star busters). But generally speaking stronger characters tend to have superior speed and hax as well.


On another subject, in the time in-between this post and he past I've been convinced that the Sinnoh legendaries ARE universal+ and that base stat total isn't the end all be all for scaling Pokemon (evolution level/feats need to be factored in as well), especially when you're scaling legendaries. The Dialga Palkia, and Giratina that you fight in the games are just physical avatars of the "true' forms and likely aren't at full power. It's also made very clear that they're universal threats throughout time. They should also all have immeasurable speed via Dailga transcending linear time. Arceus and the lake trio scale to this but that's about it. All the other legendaries are continent/maybe planet.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

With Everyone Back In Smash, we definitely need to consider Pokemon Trainer w/ access to Arceus and Dialga as a potential top tier character.

Moreso if you consider his/her needing to throw the pokeball to release his/her Sinnoh Legendaries against him/her. Since by sheer raw power under generous interps, s/he's really high up there, but that handicap of needing to open the pokeball really leaves him/her vulnerable to the Rushdown characters. (e.g. Pokemon Trainer w/ Arceus clearly has more potential raw power than Snake, but in an actual match, Snake just snipes the defenseless child before s/he can open his/her pokeball.)

 

[monzer]

With Everyone Back In Smash, we definitely need to consider Pokemon Trainer w/ access to Arceus and Dialga as a potential top tier character.

Moreso if you consider his/her needing to throw the pokeball to release his/her Sinnoh Legendaries against him/her. Since by sheer raw power under generous interps, s/he's really high up there, but that handicap of needing to open the pokeball really leaves him/her vulnerable to the Rushdown characters. (e.g. Pokemon Trainer w/ Arceus clearly has more potential raw power than Snake, but in an actual match, Snake just snipes the defenseless child before s/he can open his/her pokeball.)

Well, there's nothing that really prevents the trainer form starting the fight with a Pokemon out. However, once that Pokemon faints or switches out the trainer left defenseless and is basically done for. So really the trainer could only use one Pokemon realistically.

After looking at some of the Sinnoh feats it looks like there's nothing that any other character could really do against Arceus, Dialga, exc. Their speed is essentially infinite (relative to 3d speed) via Dialga implied to be above the concept of linear time and the others keeping up with him. With that degree of speed I doubt that even Paper Mario could do anything.

There's also obviously the issue of whether or not the trainer can even use Pokemon outside of Kanto or his "canon" team. Honestly I think it depends on the interpretation of the character.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Yeah, it's definitely an interp question.

If you allow full Pokedex access AND starting with a Pokemon summoned... then GG, Pokemon Trainer for top-tier, right alongside best-interp Shulk (potentially higher, depending on Arceus/Dialga respect).

If you allow full Dex access but without a starting Pokemon out, then he's still high-tier, but beaten by faster rushdown characters.

If you allow full Kanto Dex only, then he has access to Mewtwo/Mew and all that entails, plus backup options in the Legendary Birds and a handful of useful/gimmicky Pokemon like Ditto (back to that Copying Powers question).

If you only allow his Smash3/5 team, then he's exactly as strong as Charizard (well, maybe a little higher since he has two more meatshields to help him out).

And if you don't allow teams (because you're an idiot who missed the point of this topic), then he's just a regular human child with an especially strong love for animals.

So... yeah, Interpretation Matters.

 

[Austria]

no doubt, kirby.

he sucks up everything and copies its ability.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Newcomers:

Inklings: Pretty low-tier. High-pressure ink cannons give them offense on par with low-tier pokemon, and their general malleability gives them some resistance to physical-only limited fighters. But dissolving like a wicked witch in water is a huge weakness to overcome that a lot of low-tier fighters can exploit.

Daisy: Probably about the same tier as Princess Peach? Presumably she has access to magic and powerups too. Though she's never been shown to use them, so for people with interpretations that require hard feats instead of any form of extrapolation... she doesn't have anything more exciting than a normal human, apart from a couple of flashy animations in Tennis Aces and Strikers. Little Mac-tier?

Ridley: Allowing Meta- and Mecha-Ridley might bump him up, but even in his base form, he's a giant space dragon that breathes fire. He never gets any special magic, but being able to fly unprotected through the vacuum of space gives him solid durability. I hesitate to put him -too- high, given the number of Fire Emblem and RPG characters with access to Dragonslaying weakness-exploiting magic weapons.

Chrom: Speaking of Dragonslayers! Chrom is Lucina-level in terms of plot power. Wherever you see Lucina, that's where Chrom goes.

Dark Samus: Unlike Ridley, Dark Samus has access to a ton of mysticism and super-science that went into her creation and power generation. I'd need a proper Metroid Prime expert to weigh in here. But given Samus herself is top-tier and Dark Samus can emulate a lot of her abilities PLUS is implied to be innately stronger (though maybe not as tenacious and cunning as Samus)... I think she's a top-tier threat. AT LEAST Ganondorf-level.

Simon and Richter Belmont: Really REALLY powerful normal humans skilled with a variety of medieval weapons and some low-level magic. The Vampire Killer whip gives them some added oomph against supernatural threats. I'd put them at the same level as most of the Fire Emblem and Zelda characters. MAAAYBE Ryu-level if you see their weapons' effectiveness as not working on anything not specifically from Castlevania's staple of monsters.

King K.Rool: Tough lizard monster. Can withstand hits from DK, who can punch "Mario-Galaxy-physics" Moons out of orbit, so he has a decent level of durability. Similar to no-powerups Bowser. Not particularly strong in terms of plot power, and his ranking really relies on where you see DK's power level.

BONUS!:

Hey, it's plotpower, so the distinction between "fighter" and "assist trophy" is unimportant, so here's a handful of assist trophy characters I wanted to talk about:

Shovel Knight: Sadly, not really a top-tier threat. His skill allowed him to use his very limited raw power to exploit the weaknesses of powerful mages and even a Grim Reaper-like cursed fighter, but neither his weapon nor innate powers are all that impressive. Basically Link/Ike-level at best. Little Mac-level at worst.

Ashley: The extent of her powers is unknown, but is unquestionably able to bind demons and shoot magic blasts. Makes her a reasonably strong threat, though her durability is laughable. Probably close to Princess Peach in power?

Isaac: At his strongest he's a Ness-level telekinetic with plant- and rock-bending feats. He can also summon elemental god-spirits with Djinni unleashes. Definitely one of the higher-tier magic-users, particularly given that he's a bit more durable than most of them. Probably close to non-goddess Zelda, Ness, Pit, non-Grima!Robin.

Rathalos: As imposing as he is, he's not that impressive compared to the other dragons in the roster like Ridley, Rayquaza, Grima, Bowser w/ Powerups, or Corrin. He's probably pretty close to the likes of K.Rool and Charizard, with no magical ability to speak of. Breathing fire and having actual physics-reliant flight don't equate to top-tier in Smash's weird plot power environment.

Dracula: Immortality and crazy magic spam does, though! Top-tier threat right here. The Chosen Heroes like Link, Marth, Simon, Peach, etc. all have supernatural-weakness-exploiting abilities that spoil him, but his sheer power level is on par with the likes of Samus, Sonic, potentially Bayonetta.

Lyndis: Probably the least-powerful of the Fire Emblem characters in the game, due to not having any particularly magical affinity nor wielding an magical/legendary weapons. Her Sol Katti has a mild enchantment. And if you allow her FE Heroes appearances, she gets the Legendary Bow Mulagir, which can bring her up to Roy/Lucina's level. Otherwise, she's closer to Ryu/Little Mac than Link/Marth, despite being arguably the most popular character in the franchise.

Nightmare: Kirby bosses are eldritch abominations and Nightmare is no exception. Potentially top-tier, second only to reality-warpers like fullpower Zanza!Shulk.

Skull Kid/Majora: God-Tier, wherever your interps place that. Probably closer to Palutena-type gods than Zanza!Shulk-type gods, though. His best attack, dropping a moon, seems to take a really long time to charge up, after all. He's better off sticking with the limited time manipulation and mind corruption abilities.

Midna: The Fused Shadow gives her a big burst of power, but apparently Ganondorf just no-sell'd on that. Her Twili form in Hyrule Warriors can utilize the Twilight Mirror to cast incredible magic spells at high speed, but we don't see a lot of feats beyond general offensive magic. Sort of like Ashley, but with more speed and durability.

Shadow the Hedgehog: Timestop at will is pretty broken. Otherwise pretty identical to Sonic, so yeah, top-tier or damn close.

Knuckles the Echidna: Basically the same as Soni- Actually wait. I have no idea how accurate that assessment is. Sonic people, please chime in. (A rundown of where Tails, Amy, MetalSonic, and Eggman/Robotnik fall in terms of powerlevel would also be helpful for some context!)

Zero: Not quite sure where Megaman or X fall in the ranks, due to how their powersets are so enormous... But Zero's actually pretty straightforward as a physical/energy-based combat robot with enhanced speed and strength that is actually measurable. I'd put him in the upper echelons of the fighters that don't have cheating god powers. Being a robot puts him in the unique position to spoil any mind-readers/controllers like Mewtwo, Isaac, or Ness (though depending on how powerful you see their other abilities, he still might lose, but at least it's a fight).

Grey Fox: A cyborg ninja! Ryu-level power, with enough speed to spoil some higher-tiers.

Rodin: SPOILERS: He's actually the secret hidden superboss of Bayonetta's games. He's stupid-powerful, even compared to her. Definitely beats out the lower-tier "gods" like Palutena, but maybe not quite Zanza!Shulk-level. Kirby would be an interesting matchup.

Waluigi: WAAAAAH! Level. Strongest character of all time. Maybe.

 

[Revan2005]

I cant believe I saw only a hand full of people even mention Mario characters, of whom have swam out of black wholes! And if you remembers, Rosalina recreated the entire Mario world, and survived a explosion that destroyed it in the first place! She is easily Multi-Universal Powerlevel, if not at least Universal.

 

[Mgl]

Donkey Kong is the strongest character. The DK Rap by Grant Kirkehope clearly states, "He's bigger, faster and stronger too". Since who hes faster and stronger than isn't specified it means his power is limitless. So he is the strongest.

 

[josh bones]

Donkey Kong is the strongest character. The DK Rap by Grant Kirkehope clearly states, "He's bigger, faster and stronger too". Since who hes faster and stronger than isn't specified it means his power is limitless. So he is the strongest.

So is his size, though. Therefore he expands into infinity and loses by default.

 

[MainJPW]

Shadow the Hedgehog: Timestop at will is pretty broken. Otherwise pretty identical to Sonic, so yeah, top-tier or damn close.

In addition to that he can harness Chaos Control in a variety of ways such as distorting space around his fists to enhance his strikes with pulsating spheres to repell enemies, shoot energy bolts with Chaos Spear and uses it to create AOE blasts (Chaos Blast) and force fields via Chaos Burst (Sonic Battle) or channels it into his hands to shoot beams of energy with Chaos Blast (STH, 06, Chronicles, All Stars Racing games, Runners).

With his abilities to distort space he can create areas of distorted space to trigger spacial rifts that sends opponents flying with Chaos Magic (Sonic Battle), uses Chaos Rift (Chronicles) to open rifts in time and space to banish opponents outside time and space. And of course the teleportation.

Shadow also flipped over city buses and segments of highway bridges one handed in his game STH.

Knuckles the Echidna: Basically the same as Soni- Actually wait. I have no idea how accurate that assessment is. Sonic people, please chime in. (A rundown of where Tails, Amy, MetalSonic, and Eggman/Robotnik fall in terms of powerlevel would also be helpful for some context!)

I’ll chime in for Knuckles:


Feats wise he can strike the ground with enough force to generate exploding shockwaves:

• Sonic Heroes (Vocanic Dunk)
• 06 (Ground Shaker)
• Sonic Rivals 2 (Knuckle Slam)
• Sonic Chronicles (Quake Punch)

Strikes with the force to generate wide Earth tremors:

• SA2 and Sonic Rivals (Hammer Punch)
• Heroes (Volcanic Dunk)
• Chronicles (Quake Punch)

And strikes the ground with the force to trigger volcanic eruptions (Sonic Heroes via Volcanic Dunk).

He can also strike the air with enough strength and speed to cause friction with the air and create explosions with Deep Impact (Sonic Battle) and with his 2nd punch combo in Heroes and can engulf himself in flames with Scewdriver. (Advance games, 06, Mario and Sonic)

He can also call forth meteors with Meteor Crush (Sonic Battle) and summon bolts of lightning with Thunder Arrow (SA2). Speed wise he can use Boost Mode from the Advance games to run fast enough to leave behind after images and can run up to at least Mach 3 as of Mania. Durability wise he has tanked explosions from Eggman’s bombs in Sonic 3&K and Egg Fleets in Heroes and should be on par with Sonic who tanked falls from 60,000 ft. ( up above storm clouds via Egg Carrier ) In the air in Adventure ( Tails survived the same fall after the first Sky Chase and Sonic landed on his head in the beach, Sonic tanked another one when he jumped off the Egg Carrier and face planted all the way in Mystic Ruin ) and tanked a fall from space in Advance 2 and Unleashed. Knuckles is also a master of multiple martial arts according to his official bio though we really only see the punchy stuff. Can also perform Spin Dash and Homing Attack and can glide, climb and dig through any surface.

Tails can lift ten tons (Omori) in Sky Patrol and punch through boulders in Tails Adventure. Using his twin tails he can fly fast and across long distances as seen in Sonic Adventure (flies Amy from the Egg Carrier to Station Square) and Heroes’ and Colors’ opening cinematic. Fast enough generate afterimages with Boost Mode and can get get up to Mach 3 in Mania. Can do a lot of the things Sonic can do like Homing Attack and Spindash in addition to using his twin tails to attack and can do it with enough speed and force that it forms air currents around him with Tornado Attack.

Amy’s got enough physical strength to produce whirlwinds, tornadoes, and powerful and massive shockwaves with her swings and can even fly like a helicopter by spinning in place with her hammer. (Sonic Heroes, Battle, SATBK) she also casually smacked Knuckles at high speed into a tree in Generations. Amy is fast enough to create afterimages with Boost Mode and is classified as a speed type in many games starting with Heroes. Also a skilled acrobatic, has impressive agility and is a skilled kick boxer as of Sonic Battle. She can summon her hammer at will in all her appearances and can summon heavy objects to crush opponents like 16 ton weights. (Fighters via Heads up!)

I’m sure you’ve seen how durable Eggman is. Consistently surviving large scale explosions from his machines and from bombs and collapsing buildings. Runs pretty fast for his size and as far as striking he can punch cars long distances in the Riders games if they’re in the way. Still weaker than the hero cast.

 

[monzer]

Oh wow the thread's somewhat active again. Newcomers to the thread: I would recommend scrolling up and reading my tier list. It's probably the most accurate "canon smash tier list" on the internet right now (although I stopped doing this kind of stuff for a few months so it may be slightly outdated). If you guys have any extra info or changes for me to make that would be great.

I would advise against reading the rest of this thread, as the vast majority of the information is outdated. There's been a few informative posts a page or two back but there's nothing else really worth reading.

If you want good resources I would recommend these:

Reddit: r/WhoWouldWin is plebbit garbage but their respect threads can be a good resource. They're mostly accurate, but give the bare minimum feats for a character, and usually underrate characters. Despite this, it's worth using.

Vs Wiki: Their tiering system is super good and I would recommend reading it. They're usually fine when it comes to character, feats but they tend to heavily overrate characters for illogical or semantics-based reasons. Don't partake in any discussion on there, just look at a character's page and let common sense tell you if it's right or not. Note: this is the only "powerscaling wiki" you should ever even consider using, the rest are filled with misinformation, blatantly biased moderators, or outdated info.

There's a few forums dedicated to this kind of stuff but I haven't been on them enough to see if their worthwhile or not. Naruto forums had some good respect threads and feat calcs but most of them are on Vs Wiki too. From what it looks like spacebattles is still stuck using 2014 level arguments. I have only read a few of their thread and I wasn't very impressed.

Youtube sources:
SeththeProgrammer
ChuckTheCyberCuck
Just A Robot
Dyphinoide

All of these guys are good for research. Seth is a controversial figure due to his cocky demeanor but he's right most of the time. Chuck is good as well. Just a Robot and Dyphinoide make coherent arguments but occasionally get things wrong.

Note: Animation RewindDeath Battle and are NOT valid sources.

Overall basically every vs battle community is a massive hugbox that doesn't listen to anything outside of their respective collective opinions and rarely questions if their own system is even valid (almost every system used is flawed or outdated). Roam around, see a what a lot of different places have to say. I would recommend against being a "regular" for any of these places as you don't want to be indoctrinated or "settle down" anywhere.

If you want quality discussion, SethTheProgrammer's discord is the best place by far. There's a lot of Seth fanboys and salty kids but there are a lot of really smart people and good debaters on there and once and a while you'll get a good discussion going. Obviously they have their own hugbox-like elements, and I wouldn't recommend strictly using it, but it's the best place for debates I've seen in my 5 years of doing this stuff.

The answer here depends on whether we are going off their smash moveset or their appearances in their home series.

By home series appearances I would say . are the strongest for obvious reasons. Giant Robots, magic, sheer strength, and invincibility. Next up would be the powerful, but not OP characters like . Next comes the less powerful in terms of special magic or robotic etc. and the characters who aren't abnormal but are very strong or carry magic items or dangerous objects like . The last group are the normal characters who don't really have any special magic abilities and are just average Joes but got into Smash anyhow. They are .

Top tier is half right. You got the Kirby cast right but the rest are questionable. Rosalina is there if you give her the observatory as a vehicle (not quite as high as the others in the tier though), Bowser/Bowser Jr. are only there if given power stars. The rest haven't done anything to warrant being placed there. Magic has it's limits, Ganondorf's invincibility is questionable (no limits fallacy), and they aren't nearly fast enough to use any of their hax.

Mid tier needs to be broken up into like 5 different tiers Bayo, Mewtwo, and Sonic are all lower top tier due to planet busting feats. Mario and co. could be placed up to top tier if we give them power stars. Between the other character there's quite a large range as well. Look up each character's feats individually and you'll see the gap.

Low tier needs a lot of work. Donkey and Diddy Kong are HEAVILY underrated on this. Donkey Kong has feats calculated to be at country level and Diddy scales to him. Fox and Falco have arwings that put them a lot higher (Andross is like continent level). Shulk is universal at his peak but even if we don't factor that in he's defeated moon sized enemies and has ftl travel speeds. Zero Suit Samus is relative to armored Samus so she should be way higher. The Fire Emblem characters are far more than just people with swords they're all superhumans in their own right. Jigglypuff is like building level. Villager is fine where (s)he is.

Bottom tier is ok but Little Mac has beaten veritable superhumans before. Also Olimar is top tier if we count his spaceship.

no doubt, kirby.

he sucks up everything and copies its ability.

That only works if they're weaker than Kirby. If they're on par with him it doesn't work. Also he only copies their attacks not their power level. that being said, Kirby IS top tier, but because of his power and speed, not because of his sucking.

I cant believe I saw only a hand full of people even mention Mario characters, of whom have swam out of black wholes! And if you remembers, Rosalina recreated the entire Mario world, and survived a explosion that destroyed it in the first place! She is easily Multi-Universal Powerlevel, if not at least Universal.

The lumas were the ones that restarted the universe, to Rosalina. Rosalina is as strong as base Mario.

If you want to read about Mario feats look at my above posts. I made a pretty in depth powerscale of the Mario multiverse (scroll up until "big Mario powerscale"), and then made an addition to it a few posts afterwards. I don't agree 100% with everything I said back then (I'll be making a small retraction to it soon), but it's very accurate.

Newcomers: [insert rest of post here]

Great work! Very informative!

open rifts in time and space to banish opponents outside time and space.

Can you elaborate on this? Hax like this could be potentially game-breaking.



Oh my Shrek I've been in this thread for over 3 years.

 

[Smearglangelo]

Wow, it's been about four years since I last viewed this thread! I'll weigh in on the discussion for old time's sake.

Spoiler: Here is my tier list

Canonically the Strongest Character in Super Smash Bros:
(To Be Decided)
Plot Armored:


Gods:


Demigods:


Angels:


Over Powered:


Super Powered:
(Rosalina)

Locked and Loaded:
ultcorrin:(Luma)

Peak Physical Condition:
(Popo)(Nana) (Gunner)

Average Joes:
(Dog)

Below Average Joes:
(Olimar)(Pikmin)(Duck)

Lack of Canon:

A few things to note about this tier list:
-Characters on the list must be playable fighters in the Super Smash Bros series.
-Characters within the same tier are considered equal in strength.
-Only one version of each character is on the list.
-Every character is at their strongest (eg. Sonic has all Super Emeralds from Sonic 3 & Knuckles).
-Combo Fighters are separated into individual characters (eg. Popo doesn't have access to Nana and vise versa).
-Character's are ranked only on their OWN strength (eg. Pokemon Trainer can't use Pokemon because they are allies not tools).
-Villains are considered STRONGER than the heroes of their respective games unless otherwise proven (Heroes beating Villains can be attributed to the Player's skill not the Hero's strength).

With that out of the way, I've got some explaining to do.
: The Plot Armored Tier is reserved for fighters that can't be defeated by normal means. What makes Young Link unbeatable is his ability to rewind time in Majora's Mask. If the Hero of Time felt that victory wasn't assured he could rewind time and potentially have unlimited prep time to defeat his opponent.

: Shulk and Bayonetta really benefit from the whole "Every character is at their strongest" aspect of this list. Sonic also benefits, but to a lesser extent. Sonic's strongest form is Hyper Sonic and he can still be crushed or immobilized while in that state.

(Luma): This little pillow is tougher than you might think! In Super Mario Galaxy there's a 2 player mode called co-star where P2 plays as a Luma. Co-star Luma can stun enemies with star bits and defeat them with a spin attack. Lumas can also transform into launch stars and even planetoids.

(Popo)/(Nana): The Ice Climbers don't actually have that cool ice power in their game. They do climb Mountains though, so they must be pretty strong!

: Daisy was originally in the Super Powered tier, but I moved her down to Average Joes after realizing that her only canon appearance is in Super Mario Land. Daisy doesn't do much in Super Mario Land.

: You can probably guess why ROB is in bottom tier, but seeing Mr. Game & Watch in the same tier may be a surprise. Mr. Game & Watch is an amalgamation of Game & Watch references created for Super Smash Brothers Melee and therefore doesn't technically exist in any game for the Game & Watch system. Since Smash Brothers is not canon, Mr. Game & Watch is not canon.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Pit for breaking down all walls just to talk about who Icarus is and for admitting illiteracy (also Hades says so, and I will believe the practically dead character)

 

[MainJPW]

Can you elaborate on this? Hax like this could be potentially game-breaking.

On second thought, you can probably disregard that one. Chronicles is not canon according to Kevin Eva AKA "Archangel", who works for SEGA. It’s a cool hax though.

The move functions as a one hit kill in gameplay.

Pit for breaking down all walls just to talk about who Icarus is and for admitting illiteracy (also Hades says so, and I will believe the practically dead character)

So what you’re saying is that Pit is omniversal?

Super OP bull****.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

So what you’re saying is that Pit is omniversal?

Super OP bull****.

No...I’m saying Pit is Daddy Sakurai Tier

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Wow, it's been about four years since I last viewed this thread! I'll weigh in on the discussion for old time's sake.

Spoiler: Here is my tier list

Canonically the Strongest Character in Super Smash Bros:
(To Be Decided)
Plot Armored:


Gods:


Demigods:


Angels:


Over Powered:


Super Powered:
(Rosalina)

Locked and Loaded:
ultcorrin:(Luma)

Peak Physical Condition:
(Popo)(Nana) (Gunner)

Average Joes:
(Dog)

Below Average Joes:
(Olimar)(Pikmin)(Duck)

Lack of Canon:

A few things to note about this tier list:
-Every character is at their strongest (eg. Sonic has all Super Emeralds from Sonic 3 & Knuckles).
-Combo Fighters are separated into individual characters (eg. Popo doesn't have access to Nana and vise versa).
-Villains are considered STRONGER than the heroes of their respective games unless otherwise proven (Heroes beating Villains can be attributed to the Player's skill not the Hero's strength).

Hmm... I think this is a generally good Tier list and I can see the reasoning behind most choices. Small issue that I see often with Fire Emblem characters: You're ranking them as if they are all equal. You can make that argument for Marth/Roy/Lucina/Chrom/maybeIke... but Robin and Corrin are notably stronger in power. Corrin is an actual dragon, so should probably be up with the Overpowered crew like Charizard/K.Rool. Robin is the human incarnation of a Dark Dragon God, serving as both protagonist and final boss of the game (timeline stuff, but you said you were taking the characters at their STRONGEST, so...). Overpowered like the normal dragons at least, probably Angel-tier or Demigod-tier (why is Ridley so high?).

Zelda, by the 'STRONGEST' rule, should probably be judged based on her feats as the goddess of light Hylia, so at minimum Angel-tier like Palutena.

Otherwise... yeah, I can accept this list.

 

[Smearglangelo]

DjinnandTonic Thanks for the insightful input.

Small issue that I see often with Fire Emblem characters: You're ranking them as if they are all equal. You can make that argument for Marth/Roy/Lucina/Chrom/maybeIke... but Robin and Corrin are notably stronger in power. Corrin is an actual dragon, so should probably be up with the Overpowered crew like Charizard/K.Rool.

I'm not too sure about Corrin being Overpowered Tier. Keep in mind that the Charizard on this list is Mega Charizard X, not regular Charizard. The trouble here is proving that Corrin is better in a fight than Marth/Roy/Lucina/Chrom/Ike (stats are off the table). If there is something in Fire Emblem Fates' story that indicates that Corrin being a Dragon makes him a better warrior then he should be in Super Powered tier, but I'll keep him in Locked and Loaded tier for now.

Robin is the human incarnation of a Dark Dragon God, serving as both protagonist and final boss of the game (timeline stuff, but you said you were taking the characters at their STRONGEST, so...). Overpowered like the normal dragons at least, probably Angel-tier or Demigod-tier

:ultrobinRobin's placement on the tier list was an oversight. I didn't factor in Grima because I considered Evil Robin a different character from Robin, but they are in fact the same person from different timelines. Since my tier list is supposed to rank characters at their strongest, Robin is a Demigod.

(why is Ridley so high?)

I considered Ridley to be interchangeable with Bowser. Now that you bring it up, Ridley is totally dead in Metroid Fusion. That means Ridley didn't survive the explosion of Planet Zebes. He should be Angel Tier not Demigod Tier.

Zelda, by the 'STRONGEST' rule, should probably be judged based on her feats as the goddess of light Hylia, so at minimum Angel-tier like Palutena.

Unfortunately, Zelda is held back by the 'Playable' rule. Hylia is a different version of Zelda and that version isn't playable in Super Smash Brothers. The versions of Zelda that have been playable in Super Smash Brothers are: Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, and Link to the Past.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

DjinnandTonic I'm not too sure about Corrin being Overpowered Tier. Keep in mind that the Charizard on this list is Mega Charizard X, not regular Charizard. The trouble here is proving that Corrin is better in a fight than Marth/Roy/Lucina/Chrom/Ike (stats are off the table). If there is something in Fire Emblem Fates' story that indicates that Corrin being a Dragon makes him a better warrior then he should be in Super Powered tier, but I'll keep him in Locked and Loaded tier for now.

Fire Emblem in general, but particularly Fates, views Dragons as near-deity-level beings, sometimes literally calling them Dragon Gods. In Fates, the Rainbow Sage is a known Dragon who can manipulate space and rearrange buildings/layouts of the land, as well as craft super-weapons. Anankos, the final boss, is The Silent Dragon, and literally was able to curse people to instantly die if they so much as said the wrong words. And do things like raise the dead/make zombies, warp space, create pocket dimensions. He is Corrin's Father (and Corrin's dragon half-sister is also shown to be able to open pocket dimensions at the very least). Corrin him/herself can transform into a dragon and perform feats similar to those seen in the Final Smash, but presumably also has the capability to do some of those other feats the Silent Dragons do. At the very least s/he can OPEN pocket dimensions since s/he's still able to access to the Pocket Dimension Castle even after Lilith isn't around anymore. Presumably Corrin also has some degree of precognition given his/her dreams throughout the game and how s/he's the one who eventually decides the 'Fates' of the storyline.

Sorry for the rambling, kinda short on time, but tl;dr: YES, Corrin being a dragon absolutely gives him/her more options than the rest of the FE crew.

Unfortunately, Zelda is held back by the 'Playable' rule. Hylia is a different version of Zelda and that version isn't playable in Super Smash Brothers. The versions of Zelda that have been playable in Super Smash Brothers are: Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, and Link to the Past.

Ah, I didn't realize that's what you meant by playable here. That's fair.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I'm glad Mario characters are finally recognized as the OP ****s they are.

Aces also gives them all casual time manipulation and energy manipulation so that's always fun

Also, with the Belmonts being added, they're now the most powerful characters according to powerscaling. Multiversal and MFTL+ to possibly Infinite speed. Castlevania is insane.

 

[12cheeper]

Fire Emblem in general, but particularly Fates, views Dragons as near-deity-level beings, sometimes literally calling them Dragon Gods. In Fates, the Rainbow Sage is a known Dragon who can manipulate space and rearrange buildings/layouts of the land, as well as craft super-weapons. Anankos, the final boss, is The Silent Dragon, and literally was able to curse people to instantly die if they so much as said the wrong words. And do things like raise the dead/make zombies, warp space, create pocket dimensions. He is Corrin's Father (and Corrin's dragon half-sister is also shown to be able to open pocket dimensions at the very least). Corrin him/herself can transform into a dragon and perform feats similar to those seen in the Final Smash, but presumably also has the capability to do some of those other feats the Silent Dragons do. At the very least s/he can OPEN pocket dimensions since s/he's still able to access to the Pocket Dimension Castle even after Lilith isn't around anymore. Presumably Corrin also has some degree of precognition given his/her dreams throughout the game and how s/he's the one who eventually decides the 'Fates' of the storyline.

Sorry for the rambling, kinda short on time, but tl;dr: YES, Corrin being a dragon absolutely gives him/her more options than the rest of the FE crew.



Ah, I didn't realize that's what you meant by playable here. That's fair.

What are you talking about?If anything first dragons are in general pretty damn weak as far as divine dragons and divine Dragon expys gone.
From what I can recall the rainbow sages spatial manipulation was mostly limited to portal creation and you're just describing Dragon veins here.AFAIK Anankos isn't responsible for the Vallite curse.It just kind of exists so that the first half of revelations plot isn't resolved in 5 minutes.(Revelations plot would be even worse if it hinged on daddy Anankos being too stupid to just thanos everyone tbh)
Also,Corrin cannot replicate his FS.The closest thing to it in Fates is Azuras dance in Cyrkensia.
Pocket dimension stuff isn't even performed by Lilith but is made pretty clear it's the doing of Moro(whoever the hell that is) and not the characters themselves anyway.Nevermind that the writing just ignores the existence of my castle after the split anyway.
And no,you cannot scale Corrin to Anankos or even the Rainbow Sage for that matter.frankly,even relative to other first dragons Corrin is weak as ****.Corrin is not Tiki.Hes more comparable to Nowi(If you believe she's a divine dragon) in terms of what a disgrace to their race they are.Of course,I can't give them too much **** when Fates can't even keep it's story straight regarding how Dragon blood works.If Corrin was that strong as a Dragon they would've steamrolled the entire game including Garon from a story perspective and wouldn't have even needed to see the Rainbow Sage in Birthright since they could've just one shotted Xander.
It's also made abundantly clear in revelations that everyone would've been ****ed without the omega Yato.
Corrin is essentially nothing without it.
Corrin technically does have precog but only in the same sense that OOT Link has that prophetic dream at the beginning of the game.
Tbh I'm pretty sure pre-Falchion Alm would beat Corrins ass sans endgame much less someone like Ike.(And Naga help us if this is Ike during his fight with Ashera).

 

[DjinnandTonic]

What are you talking about?If anything first dragons are in general pretty damn weak as far as divine dragons and divine Dragon expys gone.
From what I can recall the rainbow sages spatial manipulation was mostly limited to portal creation and you're just describing Dragon veins here.AFAIK Anankos isn't responsible for the Vallite curse.It just kind of exists so that the first half of revelations plot isn't resolved in 5 minutes.(Revelations plot would be even worse if it hinged on daddy Anankos being too stupid to just thanos everyone tbh)
Also,Corrin cannot replicate his FS.The closest thing to it in Fates is Azuras dance in Cyrkensia.
Pocket dimension stuff isn't even performed by Lilith but is made pretty clear it's the doing of Moro(whoever the hell that is) and not the characters themselves anyway.Nevermind that the writing just ignores the existence of my castle after the split anyway.
And no,you cannot scale Corrin to Anankos or even the Rainbow Sage for that matter.frankly,even relative to other first dragons Corrin is weak as ****.Corrin is not Tiki.Hes more comparable to Nowi(If you believe she's a divine dragon) in terms of what a disgrace to their race they are.Of course,I can't give them too much **** when Fates can't even keep it's story straight regarding how Dragon blood works.If Corrin was that strong as a Dragon they would've steamrolled the entire game including Garon from a story perspective and wouldn't have even needed to see the Rainbow Sage in Birthright since they could've just one shotted Xander.
It's also made abundantly clear in revelations that everyone would've been ****ed without the omega Yato.
Corrin is essentially nothing without it.
Corrin technically does have precog but only in the same sense that OOT Link has that prophetic dream at the beginning of the game.
Tbh I'm pretty sure pre-Falchion Alm would beat Corrins *** sans endgame much less someone like Ike.(And Naga help us if this is Ike during his fight with Ashera).

Your um... spirited reply is a little disjointed so I’m not sure I understand all the details of how powerful you’re suggesting these characters are... but it kinda sounds like you’re arguing that the other FE characters should be rated higher while Corrin isn’t as strong as them?

That could be true, I’m not an expert who has analyzed every scene of each FE game in question to figure out the objective power levels involved. My general impression from playing the games is “Dragons are powerful near-deities and the heroes tend to only beat them due to sheer numbers, legendary magic weapons, and tenacity.” Since Grima and Corrin are Dragons while the rest are just strong humans, it seems like a pretty simple way to categorize them.

If there’s more to be said on the matter, perhaps you could contextualize Corrin’s feats and limitations better? Just saying he’s weak as **** and that none of the other dragons count as a point of comparison doesn’t really help. Apologies if you did this, your post is really rambling and hard to understand.

 

[12cheeper]

Your um... spirited reply is a little disjointed so I’m not sure I understand all the details of how powerful you’re suggesting these characters are... but it kinda sounds like you’re arguing that the other FE characters should be rated higher while Corrin isn’t as strong as them?

That could be true, I’m not an expert who has analyzed every scene of each FE game in question to figure out the objective power levels involved. My general impression from playing the games is “Dragons are powerful near-deities and the heroes tend to only beat them due to sheer numbers, legendary magic weapons, and tenacity.” Since Grima and Corrin are Dragons while the rest are just strong humans, it seems like a pretty simple way to categorize them.

If there’s more to be said on the matter, perhaps you could contextualize Corrin’s feats and limitations better? Just saying he’s weak as **** and that none of the other dragons count as a point of comparison doesn’t really help. Apologies if you did this, your post is really rambling and hard to understand.

Not all dragons are created equal.Some dragons are more comparable to deities than giant fire breathing lizards like Tiki,Nagi,Loptyr,Shadow Dragon Medeus,even unnamed earth and divine dragons etc.These are the types that are essentially impossible to kill unless you have either a weapon infused with the power of a divine dragon like Falchion or the Naga tome,some other absurdly powerful weapon like the Binding blade,or are several orders of magnitude more powerful than is typical of the setting like Ike could presumably do after receiving Yune's blessing.

On the other hand you have lesser dragons like most other Archanean dragon tribes as well as Nowi,Nah,Kanna,arguably Myrrh from SS disregarding how broken she is gameplaywise,and yes dragon Corrin.

As a dragon Corrins single best feat is being able to harm Sumeragi in chapter 5 who in the same chapter survives being at the epicenter of an explosion that destroys Shirasagi,the Hoshidan capital.The problem is that

1.By the end of Revelation most of the cast can do this anyway
and 2.After receiving their dragonstone Corrin never receives a power boost even close to what happened in chapter 5 because in Fateslandia dragonstones merely focus a dragons power as opposed to being stones Dragons seal their power within and presumably limit the amount of power Corrin can access to reduce the risk of degeneration.For most of the game Dragon Corrin is presented as only being marginally more powerful than base and still within the same general level of power as most of the royals.You'd be better off clinging to the Omega Yato than Corrin's dragon form tbh.

Other games still have stuff like Alm surviving getting blasted by Aura anyway so the Sumeragi feat isn't overwhelmingly impressive by the series standards anyway.

Also,kind of nitpicky but Grima technically isn't a dragon in the traditional sense.He's more akin to an ultimate life form like Mewtwo but infused with Divine Dragon blood(which may or may not be Naga's) with a bit of homonculus thrown in.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Personally, I was interpreting the Dragon Veins to be representations of how Corrin's dragon powers manifest themselves. Only the characters with Dragon blood can activate them, and they cause such a wide range of effects, from changing the weather patterns to literally shifting the earth itself. Seems like deific power to me, though I can see discounting it since Corrin and the others have to rely on an external source to activate the abilities. But it does line up pretty neatly with how the power of the Dragons/Manaketes are portrayed in other games.

Re: Alm/Ike

Not sure what makes them particularly more powerful than Corrin? Like, I understand that Ragnell is a powerful legendary sword with some notable destructive power. But it still doesn't have much *scope* of power - it can fire some sword beams and the blessings from Yune makes it uniquely able to cut deities, but Ike himself is still bound by normal human physics. He can still be stabbed and shot. His speed is still only peak human speed at best. You can argue that he's more resistant to magic due to Yune's blessing, since she keeps him from being petrified by Ashera's statue-wave! Alm... especially pre-Falchion Alm, doesn't even have that?

I'm not particularly attached to Corrin, but s/he just seems objectively more innately powerful than the normal humans. Just the ability to transform physically into a dragon with more mass, durability, and weaponized breath is a big advantage over characters that are (enchanted weapons aside) lightly-armored humans. Now, if the argument is that Corrin is weaker due to the sheer amount of anti-dragon weaponry among the cast of Smash Bros (there's like 10 characters with some variation of this in their homegames' skillsets), that is also a fair call. Like, yes, Marth himself would beat Corrin, obviously. It's his big claim to fame that he slays dragons! But Marth vs. non-dragon Smash fighters doesn't really fair as well as Dragon vs. non-dragonslayer-wielder Smash fighters.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

FE character can tank magic attacks that have been calculated to have kilotons of energy output, not mention being able to dodge attacks that utilize lightning at best.

And their swords and blessings allow them to somehow defeat deities comparable to one that flooded the world expect for a single continent. It gives him the sufficent attack potency to harm characters with durability to survive attacks that can graze the earth's surface.

At least, this is what I gather