Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[WeirdChillFever]

But where has Bowser (Non-Powered Up) ever shown that he can take down Castle Walls?
He was powered up by Grand Stars in SMG2 and adrealine pumped in BIS.

 

[Munomario777]

You said yourself that that logic isn't valid. If were using your logic Sonic isn't that fast.

When was that?

But that was the only attack in Fire Emblem that's was ever even suspected to have charge. It make no sense if it had charge.

Well, it did.

You can't destroy all of them at once.

Bowser Jr. can't pilot all of them at once.

Knocking the moon out of orbit, even if it was charged, with momentum, exc, it would still be enough for him to take out a castle wall.

It's not "the moon", however. It's a significantly scaled down version of "the moon".

It's stated that he is.

When?

He's an important character that sets up the plot of the game.

That doesn't relate to credibility. What has he said that turned out to be true, and what has he said that turned out to be false?

Rock Pokemon at the max level end up around 100 times more durable than they were at the start. If they attacks can take out something 100 times more durable than rock or steel, it shows the can take out a castle wall.

A Geodude at maximum Defense is about three times tougher than it originally was. It seems more likely that it was less durable than an actual rock when it started, looking at what types of attacks can defeat it.

Then again, Pokemon just faint, so Geodude isn't really "broken" at all.

But where has Bowser (Non-Powered Up) ever shown that he can take down Castle Walls?
He was powered up by Grand Stars in SMG2 and adrealine pumped in BIS.

He does this in the final boss of NSMBWii. There he was powered up by Kamek, but Bowser has been shown to achieve similar sizes without the aid of Kamek in games such as Super Mario Sunshine.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

When does the plot say that Giygas can destroy the world?

It's the reason why you fight him.

A person could also be lying, or delusional.

Except he's sane.

From whom, or what?

Some sort of mental force in Ness' head.

• The things that evolve are made of ether.
• Sandwiches aren't equivalent to the entirety of existence.
• Define "universal".
• By doing whatever made Shulk say, "How dare you disobey me!"

• That doesn't explain how the Monado would let them evolve.
• I really don't see the logic in your argument.
• Able to destroy or create a universe, or something similar to that.
• Can you be a bit more specific?

• You can have authority over Alvis, who has control over the forces of nature.
• So, what's your point?

• Prove that he can control them.
• It proves that Shulk isn't controlling the ether, because you don't control things from the inside.

I'm not interested enough to be honest.

K.

Provide a video of this.

They don't destroy them in the game, but they are strong enough too.

How much force has it been shown to protect Marth from, then?

Attacks from the Dohlr army, which destroyed cities.

With the same attacks that hit Pit?

Pretty sure.

The planets' mass is a typo.

Oh.

Immunity to microwaves =/= immunity to giant turtle people that can bust through castle walls with pure brute force.

A durability feat is a durability feat.

Prove the force of the attack(s) from the former.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22450

The latter doesn't count, as protagonists not taking damage is a common phenomenon in the Yoshi's Island games. Mario can't get hurt there, but he's not invincible here.

So the Yoshis can't die?

That's based on the aforementioned typo.

Ah.

Prove their force, and provide video evidence.

How large?

The size of a real life mountain, but somewhat smaller.

With the same attacks used on Pac-Man/Lucina/Robin?

Yes, those are the only attacks they have.

Shulk's body is part of the universe. I could use sword A to perform a high-speed slash and cut through a person, but I could also use that same sword to lightly tap someone else on the shoulder and not deal any damage. Does that mean that the latter person is more durable than the former?

Zanza is using his strongest slashes. The fact that the universe was destroyed is a durability feat; Shulk's body contained the attack.

• Prove that he's not made of ether.
• No, that's not the definition we're working with.

• I just did.
• Why not?

As aforementioned, the things that evolve are.

See above.

Such as?

The things used in the Monado Arts.

Why is that?

Because
A) he's the god
B) it requires his Monados

"I wish for a world without gods!" (paraphrased)

I don't see where he commands Alvis. He only talks about how he wants to change the universe.

So, what does this have to do with becoming a god?

The stat boost makes you a god.

Which is?

Shulk can reset the universe because he's a god.

It's not convincing.

So a statement from Alvis is unconvincing?

It's untrue, and I find it funny.

How do you know it's untrue?

No, I mean the action that is resetting the universe.

Resetting the universe is Shulk's action, Shulk's actions don't require ether, so Shulk can reset the universe.

Shulk uses authority.

And you use circular reasoning.

Shulk isn't a god here, because he isn't a god of this universe.

If a person is the boss of a restaurant, and they leave the restaurant, are they not still the boss?

This universe is very susceptible to Shulk's Monados.

If they don't rely on ether being in the environment, they can be used.

Exactly.

Having the Monado III makes people gods, and the Monado III uses ether manipulation.

So what makes you blend those things together?

Mario isn't using the Fire Flower to use Ultra Flame. Samus isn't using her gunship to shoot missiles. Fox isn't using his Arwing to shoot lasers. Shulk is using the Monado to reset the universe.

I was referring to ether manipulation, not the Monado.

 

[TriforceOfAura]

This is a good question, but I don't play many different kinds of Nintendo games, so I can only speak for a few. Personally, I'd say it has to be one of these:
Yes, Dark Pit. In Kid Icarus: Uprising, he takes out the guardian of the underwold by KICKING IT IN THE FACE. If that's not raw power, I don't know what is. He takes down a monster HUNDREDS of times him and Pit's size by kicking it in the jaw. 'Roids, man, roids.
Ness, yep. He takes down Giygas, who is threatening to swallow the whole universe, and unless the Multiverse theory is proved correct, that's the end of my 3DS.
SHE CREATED A GALAXY AND DIDN'T BREAK A SWEAT! No wonder she's top tier.
Many of you are surprised by this. Meta Knight, first off, despite what my fanmade Kirby Timeline says, never dies, and can disappear into another dimension by simply wrapping himself in his cape. Another dimension!
"Because its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, it thinks only of defeating its foes." That's Mewtwo's Pokedex entry from Pokemon Gold Version. Here's another one, if you're still not convinced of Mewtwo's atrocious power: "Said to rest quietly in an undiscovered cave, this POKéMON was created solely for battling." -Pokemon Crystal Verion. If Mewtwo was really able to unleash his TRUE power on the battlefield, he'd make tournament-level Brawl Meta Knight look like Melee Kirby played by a 3-year-old. It's pitiful how much power Mewtwo is holding back, he is really only using like 3-5% of his true power. Perhaps it's to balance him out.

 

[Munomario777]

It's the reason why you fight him.

All I can find is Giygas taking over the world, which isn't equivalent to destroying it.

Except he's sane.

He could be lying.

Some sort of mental force in Ness' head.

How accurate has it proven itself to be?

• That doesn't explain how the Monado would let them evolve.
• I really don't see the logic in your argument.
• Able to destroy or create a universe, or something similar to that.
• Can you be a bit more specific?

• He could manipulate them to let them evolve.
• Controlling a sandwich (whatever that's supposed to mean) isn't the same as resetting an entire universe.
• Then when do the attacks create or destroy a universe?
• I don't see why I'd need to. Alvis is clearly disobeying, which is a sign of free will.

• Prove that he can control them.
• It proves that Shulk isn't controlling the ether, because you don't control things from the inside.

• He resets the universe.
• You control a car from the inside (unless you RC-rigged it Mythbusters style or something).

They don't destroy them in the game, but they are strong enough too.

Prove this. An assertion is not proof.

Attacks from the Dohlr army, which destroyed cities.

Prove that these same attacks can destroy cities on their own.

A durability feat is a durability feat.

A microwave durability feat isn't a blunt force durability feat.[/quote]

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22450

I'm pretty sure that that map isn't the same size as the earth. Look at the size of that castle.

So the Yoshis can't die?

They can; my point is that Yoshi's Island invincibility should be ignored, as it's a gameplay mechanic of that franchise.

That's impressive, but I'm unsure of the force.

The size of a real life mountain, but somewhat smaller.

Do you have an image or video?

Yes, those are the only attacks they have.

Prove that these same attacks are used both to attack the protagonists in question and to destroy things.

Zanza is using his strongest slashes. The fact that the universe was destroyed is a durability feat; Shulk's body contained the attack.

Did Zanza destroy/create the universe by slashing at it with the Monado?

• I just did.
• Why not?

• You have yet to prove that things that weren't created at the same time as everything else do not contain ether.
• Because things that aren't "alive" can still be sentient, and thus allies.

The things used in the Monado Arts.

Shulk's opponent and the arena aren't made of said "things".

Because
A) he's the god
B) it requires his Monados

A) ...in authority.
B) Shulk's Monados =/= Shulk.

I don't see where he commands Alvis. He only talks about how he wants to change the universe.

Alvis tells Shulk, "Tell me your wish." He's like a genie in a lamp. Shulk wishes for something to happen, and Alvis makes it happen.

The stat boost makes you a god.

Since when do stat boosts make one a god?

Shulk can reset the universe because he's a god.

...in authority.

So a statement from Alvis is unconvincing?

It doesn't convince me of your argument, no.

How do you know it's untrue?

Because if it was true, that would be communism. Last I checked, the multiverse doesn't run on communism.

Resetting the universe is Shulk's action, Shulk's actions don't require ether, so Shulk can reset the universe.

Shulk's actions do require ether. Shulk has to be alive to do anything, and life in Xenoblade comes from ether.

And you use circular reasoning.

How so? I've proven that Shulk is a god in terms of authority.

If a person is the boss of a restaurant, and they leave the restaurant, are they not still the boss?

That's not at all what I'm saying. If the boss of McDonald's leaves McDonald's and goes to Chick-Fil-A, he's not the boss of Chick-Fil-A. The same would apply to a manager of one C-F-A going to a different C-F-A.

This universe is very susceptible to Shulk's Monados.

How so? It's not made of ether, and the Monado relies on manipulating ether.

So what makes you blend those things together?

Both are attributes of the Monado III, and they're rather similar. Being a god = manipulating the universe, and manipulating ether = manipulating the universe.

I was referring to ether manipulation, not the Monado.

Ether manipulation isn't comparable to the Fire Flower; it's a technique, not an item that grants techniques.

Mario uses the Fire Flower to shoot fireballs, and he harnesses the Fire Flower's power (or "flower power" for short) to shoot fireballs. However, in Mario RPG, Mario is clearly not under the Fire Flower's effects, so he's clearly not using "flower power", as that resides within the Fire Flower.

Shulk uses the Monado to manipulate ether, and he harnesses the Monado's power of ether manipulation to manipulate ether. When Shulk resets the universe, he is clearly using the Monado(s), so he's quite clearly using ether manipulation.[/quote]

 

[monzer]

Ness, yep. He takes down Giygas, who is threatening to swallow the whole universe, and unless the Multiverse theory is proved correct, that's the end of my 3DS.

Technically Ness didn't kill Gygas, it was the praying that killed him.

SHE CREATED A GALAXY AND DIDN'T BREAK A SWEAT! No wonder she's top tier.

She's only as durable as Mario though, most top tier characters would just OHKO her before she does anything.

When was that?

Whenever something comes up as a feat you say it's wrong because it hasn't been directly proven to be right.

Well, it did.

But it didn't. If anything it was a critical hit.

Bowser Jr. can't pilot all of them at once.

Lot's of them don't need to be piloted or can work on their own.

It's not "the moon", however. It's a significantly scaled down version of "the moon".

Knocked the moon out of orbit, even if it was much, much smaller, is still a huge strength feat, and he should be able to take out a wall.

When?

When he arrived, he said he was from the future.

That doesn't relate to credibility. What has he said that turned out to be true, and what has he said that turned out to be false?

I'm pretty sure literally everything he said was correct.

A Geodude at maximum Defense is about three times tougher than it originally was. It seems more likely that it was less durable than an actual rock when it started, looking at what types of attacks can defeat it.

Are you serious.
Geodude at level one, defense stat is around 10.
Golom at level 100, defense stat is around 400.

Then again, Pokemon just faint, so Geodude isn't really "broken" at all.

If an attack can knock out a pokemon, it means it wasn't durable enough to tank the attack.

 

[Munomario777]

Whenever something comes up as a feat you say it's wrong because it hasn't been directly proven to be right.

Word of god (statements coming directly from lore/the material/the creators thereof) doesn't need proof.

But it didn't. If anything it was a critical hit.

Critical hits are more powerful than the regular attacks.

Lot's of them don't need to be piloted or can work on their own.

Which ones?

Knocked the moon out of orbit, even if it was much, much smaller, is still a huge strength feat, and he should be able to take out a wall.

It depends. You'd probably need to do some calculations to figure that out (although I'm not interested enough to do so myself to be honest).

I'm pretty sure literally everything he said was correct.

Such as?

Are you serious.
Geodude at level one, defense stat is around 10.
Golom at level 100, defense stat is around 400.

From my research, a Geodude's base Defense stat is 100, and it can reach a little over 300.

Also, 400 is 40 times 10, not 100 times ten (like you originally said).

If an attack can knock out a pokemon, it means it wasn't durable enough to tank the attack.

The Pokemon is clearly not broken, whereas the castle wall is obliterated.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Critical hits are based on luck, not charge though.

It was stated by a time traveler he destroyed the universe.

Captain Falcon's matchups:
Curbstomp:

Win:

Tie:

Loss:

Curbstomped:

I’m talking about the animations here. Critical rates are calculated as Attacker’s Skill/2+weapon bonus+class bonus+wrath bonus-defender’s Luck for FE6-10.

How did Buzz-Buzz survive the destruction of the universe so that he could tell Ness?

Captain Falcon doesn’t have infinite fuel and Rosalina can float out of range.

Mega Man has time slowing and stopping powers, and Young Link has access to three day invincibility which will likely outlast the Captain’s gas tank.

Can’t the Star Fox characters just strafe him?

Snake can turn invisible you know.

By doing whatever made Shulk say, "How dare you disobey me!"

@ Munomario777 That’s Zanza buddy.

Ness, yep. He takes down Giygas, who is threatening to swallow the whole universe, and unless the Multiverse theory is proved correct, that's the end of my 3DS.

@ TriforceOfAura Technically Paula beats Giygas with the prayer command not Ness.

Shulk can manipulate ether without the Monado such as when he uses Light Heal.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Munomario777 That’s Zanza buddy.

Shulk says, "That voice! Alvis?! How dare you disobey me?!"

Shulk can manipulate ether without the Monado such as when he uses Light Heal.

Shulk has the Monado with him here, so that shouldn't be of any concern.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Muno, that's definitely Zanza who says that. The confusion is somewhat understandable seeing as Shulk is a kind-of-reincarnation of Zanza/Claus, which is partially where his powers come from.

 

[Munomario777]

Muno, that's definitely Zanza who says that. The confusion is somewhat understandable seeing as Shulk is a kind-of-reincarnation of Zanza/Claus, which is partially where his powers come from.

Well either way, Alvis is disobeying somebody, which means he has free will.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Shulk says, "That voice! Alvis?! How dare you disobey me?!"

Shulk says “That voice”, Zanza says the rest. I don’t understand how you could get the two confused.

Muno, that's definitely Zanza who says that. The confusion is somewhat understandable seeing as Shulk is a kind-of-reincarnation of Zanza/Claus, which is partially where his powers come from.

Where do you have evidence of this?

Well either way, Alvis is disobeying somebody, which means he has free will.

Alvis isn’t disobeying Zanza, he merely has two masters.

 

[Munomario777]

Shulk says “That voice”, Zanza says the rest. I don’t understand how you could get the two confused.

I'm not very well voiced in Xenoblade, so my apologies.

Alvis isn’t disobeying Zanza, he merely has two masters.

And he's disobeying one.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Alvis only has the one master at a time. Once Shulk ascends, Zanza/Klaus is no longer the actual Master of the Universe.

Re: Is Shulk a reincarnation of Zanza/Klaus?
The answer is... sorta. Klaus (Zanza's original human form before the creation of the new universe with him as God) looks identical to Shulk... right down to the two of them having the same voice actor in both English and Japanese. Since Zanza is technically in control of life generation in Bionis, he certainly could have just engineered a lookalike. Though Zanza had no qualms about possessing other lifeforms like Arglas the Giant beforehand, so it seems unlikely that he would need to intentionally make a host body. This is also unlikely since at the time of Shulk's birth, Zanza was trapped in an earthly form in Arglas' body, severely diminishing his control.

It seems to be implied that Shulk is 'special' for some reason, which is why this particular cycle is the focus of XBC, because it's the first one with something new and different in the mix - a new God candidate. Zanza foresees this with his own Visions and manipulates events such that he will take over Shulk's body as his own. Instead, this just ends up empowering Shulk to be able to become the new God, showing us that Zanza was creating his own self-fulfilling prophecy that games are so fond of. (This is a highly abbreviated summary of what happens, but that should suffice?)

So... Shulk has some nebulous connection to Klaus as a natural-born lookalike, and does indeed end up becoming his replacement. So... not necessarily a reincarnation, but certainly -something-. (This is in stark contrast to other characters who are possessed by the Gods, like Arglas and *SPOILERS* Fiora... who bear little to no resemblance to Klaus and Meyneth.)

 

[Crystanium]

I'm not interested in the other stuff because it wasn't convincing.

Shulk would be able to control those things, seeing as he is a god. Shulk would be in an existing universe in these fights, so the things could occur.

Its etherless, so no.

A. Ether didn't bring the world into existence, but instead, the things are only made from it.

Prove it. I'd like a quote or more from the series supporting this, because from what I posted, ether is the reason the world is in existence.

Zanza's quote is the only one that talks about bending life. The quote is talking about the creatures bowing down to the Monado's user, because he can control them. It doesn't speak of the things that Alvis mentions later in the game, about doing to the life.

"Magnified greatly, it has the power to control the very fabric of our world – ether. Control the ether and your will is made reality. I willed it, and it happened. That is all." - Alvis

I don't see him referring to life, but reality itself.

Isn’t there some doubt on Samus’s gravity feat?

As far as Zebes' gravity goes, yes. However, I've calculated these and the black hole created by Nightmare is equal to 9.761 × 10^7 m/s^2, which is approximately 500 times the acceleration at which Pilobolus fungus spores are ejected, or approximately 0.051 times the mean acceleration of a proton in the Large Hadron Collider. Samus is not affected by this gravity with the gravity suit.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

And he's disobeying one.

How exactly is he disobeying?

Alvis only has the one master at a time. Once Shulk ascends, Zanza/Klaus is no longer the actual Master of the Universe.

Re: Is Shulk a reincarnation of Zanza/Klaus?
The answer is... sorta. Klaus (Zanza's original human form before the creation of the new universe with him as God) looks identical to Shulk... right down to the two of them having the same voice actor in both English and Japanese. Since Zanza is technically in control of life generation in Bionis, he certainly could have just engineered a lookalike. Though Zanza had no qualms about possessing other lifeforms like Arglas the Giant beforehand, so it seems unlikely that he would need to intentionally make a host body. This is also unlikely since at the time of Shulk's birth, Zanza was trapped in an earthly form in Arglas' body, severely diminishing his control.

It seems to be implied that Shulk is 'special' for some reason, which is why this particular cycle is the focus of XBC, because it's the first one with something new and different in the mix - a new God candidate. Zanza foresees this with his own Visions and manipulates events such that he will take over Shulk's body as his own. Instead, this just ends up empowering Shulk to be able to become the new God, showing us that Zanza was creating his own self-fulfilling prophecy that games are so fond of. (This is a highly abbreviated summary of what happens, but that should suffice?)

So... Shulk has some nebulous connection to Klaus as a natural-born lookalike, and does indeed end up becoming his replacement. So... not necessarily a reincarnation, but certainly -something-. (This is in stark contrast to other characters who are possessed by the Gods, like Arglas and *SPOILERS* Fiora... who bear little to no resemblance to Klaus and Meyneth.)

Shulk and Zanza have different voice actors in both languages (checked with the credits on YouTube), and Zanza might have choose Shulk because he looks similar to Zanza. I know that I can’t force you to change your views.

As far as Zebes' gravity goes, yes. However, I've calculated these and the black hole created by Nightmare is equal to 9.761 × 10^7 m/s^2, which is approximately 500 times the acceleration at which Pilobolus fungus spores are ejected, or approximately 0.051 times the mean acceleration of a proton in the Large Hadron Collider. Samus is not affected by this gravity with the gravity suit.

Ok then. I still think it is ridiculous that Samus only receives half of her strength from the Power Suit and not orders of Magnitude instead _it‘s called the Power Suit people.

 

[Munomario777]

How exactly is he disobeying?

I dunno, but he clearly is if the person he's disobeying outright says so.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Shulk and Zanza have different voice actors in both languages (checked with the credits on YouTube), and Zanza might have choose Shulk because he looks similar to Zanza. I know that I can’t force you to change your views.

Oh sorry, I should have clarified. Zanza has multiple voice actors. His Voice Actor in the cutscene that shows his original human self, Klaus, is the same voice actor as Shulk in both languages. And I'm not sure why you say "I know that I can't force you to change your views" to me? I certainly have no trouble adjusting my views if I hear a good argument or counterpoint. I wouldn't bother even reading the debate if I wasn't willing to consider what was being said...

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Off topic, but I stumbled across a video that showed off some of Peach's magical ability from the Mario RPGs.
https://youtu.be/zm44G424bE0?list=PLPDSK8RGe5Jdpg6-MamwMQnowedWDoSNU&t=662

Looks like she's capable of weakening foes through the power of wishes in addition to straight up telekinesis-style magic.

 

[Crystanium]

Ok then. I still think it is ridiculous that Samus only receives half of her strength from the Power Suit and not orders of Magnitude instead _it‘s called the Power Suit people.

I'm not sure how much the power suit increases Samus' athletic abilities. I'm just guessing.

Off topic, but I stumbled across a video that showed off some of Peach's magical ability from the Mario RPGs.
https://youtu.be/zm44G424bE0?list=PLPDSK8RGe5Jdpg6-MamwMQnowedWDoSNU&t=662

Looks like she's capable of weakening foes through the power of wishes in addition to straight up telekinesis-style magic.

I honestly don't know the context in which this occurs.

 

[monzer]

Off topic, but I stumbled across a video that showed off some of Peach's magical ability from the Mario RPGs.
https://youtu.be/zm44G424bE0?list=PLPDSK8RGe5Jdpg6-MamwMQnowedWDoSNU&t=662

Looks like she's capable of weakening foes through the power of wishes in addition to straight up telekinesis-style magic.

But Bowser was heavily weakened at the time though.

Word of god (statements coming directly from lore/the material/the creators thereof) doesn't need proof.

I know, I was just giving an example of how your logic of "wrong until proven accurate" is flawed.

Critical hits are more powerful than the regular attacks.

Yes but I'm pretty sure they can take the force of critical hits too.

Which ones?

Mega Legs and I'm pretty sure a few others

It depends. You'd probably need to do some calculations to figure that out (although I'm not interested enough to do so myself to be honest).

I'll probably do the calculations

Such as?

I'm sure what he said exactly, but Buzz Buzz's only purpose in the game was too explain the plot.

From my research, a Geodude's base Defense stat is 100, and it can reach a little over 300

Golom, his evolution,

Also, 400 is 40 times 10, not 100 times ten (like you originally said).

I'm pretty sure with no IVs pr EVs it can be 4 at level one.

The Pokemon is clearly not broken, whereas the castle wall is obliterated.

Still, Pokemon survive reality warping attacks, which are more than enough to take out a castle wall.

I’m talking about the animations here. Critical rates are calculated as Attacker’s Skill/2+weapon bonus+class bonus+wrath bonus-defender’s Luck for FE6-10.

I'm not sure if RPG animations are the best way to tell how fast attacks are.

How did Buzz-Buzz survive the destruction of the universe so that he could tell Ness?

I have no idea. I doubt he actually say, obliterated it completely.

Captain Falcon doesn’t have infinite fuel and Rosalina can float out of range.

Rosalina would be too slow to float in time.

Mega Man has time slowing and stopping powers, and Young Link has access to three day invincibility which will likely outlast the Captain’s gas tank.

It won't make that much of a difference, he would still die if the Blue falcon hits him. I'm not sure how long it takes until all the fuel runs out, but Falcon still out speeds Link on foot, but than he would have to abandon the Blue Falcon. Ill call this one a tie.

Can’t the Star Fox characters just strafe him?

Probably, they should all win against him.

Snake can turn invisible you know.

Won't Falcon eventually find him?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

All I can find is Giygas taking over the world, which isn't equivalent to destroying it.

The reason he didn't destroy it is because he was defeated.

He could be lying.

Why would he lie? He's on Ness' side.

How accurate has it proven itself to be?

It shows completely accurate details of the past, for one thing.

• He could manipulate them to let them evolve.
• Controlling a sandwich (whatever that's supposed to mean) isn't the same as resetting an entire universe.
• Then when do the attacks create or destroy a universe?
• I don't see why I'd need to. Alvis is clearly disobeying, which is a sign of free will.

• Ether manipulation is said to alter the physical shape, and doing that won't let you let people evolve.
• Point?
• Zanza did that several years before the events of the game.
• I'm not going to talk more about this until I know how he disobeyed, because there could be differences from later in the game.

• He resets the universe.
• You control a car from the inside (unless you RC-rigged it Mythbusters style or something).

• Rosalina and the Lumas reset the universe. Do they have control over the forces of nature?
• Using the controls installed inside the car. Shulk isn't using controls installed inside the universe.

Prove this. An assertion is not proof.

Large explosions can destroy walls.
Planetary beings can destroy planets.
Saurians are a lot bigger than walls and would crush them easily.
It's continental, as confirmed by lore.
Statues can destroy walls.

Prove that these same attacks can destroy cities on their own.

Fire Emblem attacks can usually damage armor that's made from steel, and Falchion seals them.

A microwave durability feat isn't a blunt force durability feat.

Microwaves and blunt force both attack the body and would try to destroy it. Microwaves don't destroy Snake, because of how dense and thick his skin is, So, neither will blunt force.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22450
I'm pretty sure that that map isn't the same size as the earth. Look at the size of that castle.

The castle's size is inaccurate on the map. When Wario goes through it, it's smaller than the actual continents.

They can; my point is that Yoshi's Island invincibility should be ignored, as it's a gameplay mechanic of that franchise.

You can't look at one instance of a character not dying, and call not dying in the whole series a game mechanic. If the Yoshis can be hurt, that means that them not getting hurt isn't a game mechanic.

That's impressive, but I'm unsure of the force.

Considering it knocked Rool into the air and smashed through the stone roof, the force should be equal to that of Bowser's attack.

Do you have an image or video?

Prove that these same attacks are used both to attack the protagonists in question and to destroy things.

I just did, and you're once again ignoring the proof.

Did Zanza destroy/create the universe by slashing at it with the Monado?

We don't see, but regardless, he uses his strongest Monado abilities on both Shulk and the universe. In fact, he couldn't wipe Shulk from existence, which would be a universal durability feat.

• You have yet to prove that things that weren't created at the same time as everything else do not contain ether.
• Because things that aren't "alive" can still be sentient, and thus allies.

• Ether is what that universe is made of, but Zanza isn't from that universe.
  
• That isn't the definition of an ally.

Shulk's opponent and the arena aren't made of said "things".

Point? I never said they were.

A) ...in authority.
B) Shulk's Monados =/= Shulk.

A) Nope, power.
B) Shulk has the Monados.

Alvis tells Shulk, "Tell me your wish." He's like a genie in a lamp. Shulk wishes for something to happen, and Alvis makes it happen.

Or, Alvis just wanted to know the wish, since he's Shulk's sidekick and all.

Since when do stat boosts make one a god?

The boosts are much, much, much higher than all of the other stat boosts, and they grant undeniable power.

...in authority.

Gods don't use authority.

It doesn't convince me of your argument, no.

Alvis literally says the thing I've been debating for.

Because if it was true, that would be communism. Last I checked, the multiverse doesn't run on communism.

It's like how Barack Obama goes to other countries sometimes, and everyone respects him, even though he's not the president of that country.

Shulk's actions do require ether. Shulk has to be alive to do anything, and life in Xenoblade comes from ether.

Shulk is alive here, and he's life from Xenoblade, so he can use his actions.

How so? I've proven that Shulk is a god in terms of authority.

Uh, no. You never proved that.

That's not at all what I'm saying. If the boss of McDonald's leaves McDonald's and goes to Chick-Fil-A, he's not the boss of Chick-Fil-A. The same would apply to a manager of one C-F-A going to a different C-F-A.

See above.

How so? It's not made of ether, and the Monado relies on manipulating ether.

As proven, the Monado doesn't rely on controlling ether.

Both are attributes of the Monado III, and they're rather similar. Being a god = manipulating the universe, and manipulating ether = manipulating the universe.

The first = is true, but the second = isn't. When Alvis talks about controlling the universe, he doesn't talk about things that ether manipulation lets you do.

Ether manipulation isn't comparable to the Fire Flower; it's a technique, not an item that grants techniques.

Ether manipulation is a power that grants techniques.

Shulk uses the Monado to manipulate ether, and he harnesses the Monado's power of ether manipulation to manipulate ether. When Shulk resets the universe, he is clearly using the Monado(s), so he's quite clearly using ether manipulation.

Since when? Using the Monado doesn't mean he's using ether manipulation.

Its etherless, so no.

Resetting the universe doesn't require ether control, seeing as it was stated otherwise by Alvis.

Prove it. I'd like a quote or more from the series supporting this, because from what I posted, ether is the reason the world is in existence.

"Ether, the base element of all things that exist in this world."

Egil talks about ether like it's an element, similar to germanium, oxygen, titanium, gold, mendelevium, etc. A statue can be made from gold, but gold isn't the reason the statue is in existence. Gold didn't create the statue, a statue builder did. The statue can also be made from things that aren't gold.

"Magnified greatly, it has the power to control the very fabric of our world – ether. Control the ether and your will is made reality. I willed it, and it happened. That is all." - Alvis

I don't see him referring to life, but reality itself.

I said Zanza's, not Alvis'.

"The Monado controls the principle upon which life is based, the source of your existence – ether. Master the principle of life and all things will bow to you. Your power should be infinite."

 

[Munomario777]

I know, I was just giving an example of how your logic of "wrong until proven accurate" is flawed.

How so?

Yes but I'm pretty sure they can take the force of critical hits too.

I don't see your point.

Mega Legs and I'm pretty sure a few others

Mega Leg is a glorified Bullet Bill launcher.

I'll probably do the calculations

M'kay.

Golom, his evolution,

I'm sorry?

I'm pretty sure with no IVs pr EVs it can be 4 at level one.

That's not what my research has shown.

Still, Pokemon survive reality warping attacks, which are more than enough to take out a castle wall.

Prove it.

The reason he didn't destroy it is because he was defeated.

I can't find any sources that state that Giygas was going to destroy the world if Ness and co. didn't interfere; only that he was going to rule it.

It shows completely accurate details of the past, for one thing.

What about the future?

• Ether manipulation is said to alter the physical shape, and doing that won't let you let people evolve.
• Point?
• Zanza did that several years before the events of the game.
• I'm not going to talk more about this until I know how he disobeyed, because there could be differences from later in the game.

• The act of evolving involves changing shape, which is what ether manipulation does.
• Your analogy is void.
• With the same attacks used on Shulk? If so, prove it.
• M'kay. I'd imagine it's something to do with lighting up the Monados and saying how Zanza's power is limited and stuff.

• Rosalina and the Lumas reset the universe. Do they have control over the forces of nature?
• Using the controls installed inside the car. Shulk isn't using controls installed inside the universe.

• No, because they did nothing more than overflooding a black hole.
• He is; that would be the Monado.

Large explosions can destroy walls.

When have these ones?

Planetary beings can destroy planets.

With the same attacks that were used on the Kirby crew?

Saurians are a lot bigger than walls and would crush them easily.

Have they applied this full force to Fox?

It's continental, as confirmed by lore.

Does the game define which meaning of "continental" it's referring to? There's nothing in the definition of the word about being able to destroy continents.

Statues can destroy walls.

When does this one?

Fire Emblem attacks can usually damage armor that's made from steel, and Falchion seals them.

And?

Microwaves and blunt force both attack the body and would try to destroy it. Microwaves don't destroy Snake, because of how dense and thick his skin is, So, neither will blunt force.

Microwaves work based on heat, not blunt force.

Doing some research, I've found that an actual microwave would probably take about thirty minutes to kill someone (although I'm not sure how powerful the one Snake survived is).

The castle's size is inaccurate on the map. When Wario goes through it, it's smaller than the actual continents.

Then how big is the continent from Wario's POV?

You can't look at one instance of a character not dying, and call not dying in the whole series a game mechanic. If the Yoshis can be hurt, that means that them not getting hurt isn't a game mechanic.

I mean that their inability to die or get hurt in the Yoshi's Island series (barring things like bottomless pits) is a game mechanic, not the fact that Wario can live in his other games is a game mechanic. The invincibility is a game mechanic, but not the fact that they're not getting hurt.

Considering it knocked Rool into the air and smashed through the stone roof, the force should be equal to that of Bowser's attack.

It's rather up in the air, really (no pun intended).

So, when does the mountain fall on him?

I just did, and you're once again ignoring the proof.

I don't see any proof. Provide video of the boss attacking the protagonist, and then provide another video showing that same attack being used to destroy the object in question.

We don't see, but regardless, he uses his strongest Monado abilities on both Shulk and the universe. In fact, he couldn't wipe Shulk from existence, which would be a universal durability feat.

Prove this.

• Ether is what that universe is made of, but Zanza isn't from that universe.
  
• That isn't the definition of an ally.

• He's part of the universe, by virtue of the fact that "the universe" means "everything [in Xenoblade Chronicles]".
• It's the definition that we're using.

Point? I never said they were.

So the fact that Shulk can manipulate them is irrelevant here.

A) Nope, power.
B) Shulk has the Monados.

A) When does he demonstrate this power?
B) And Alvis could also have them.

Or, Alvis just wanted to know the wish, since he's Shulk's sidekick and all.

Why does he want to know the wish, and why is Shulk obligated to tell him?

The boosts are much, much, much higher than all of the other stat boosts, and they grant undeniable power.

And?

Gods don't use authority.

Why can't they?

Alvis literally says the thing I've been debating for.

Quote him.

It's like how Barack Obama goes to other countries sometimes, and everyone respects him, even though he's not the president of that country.

So Barack Obama can tell the Queen of England to disband all the country's troops?

Shulk is alive here, and he's life from Xenoblade, so he can use his actions.

Shulk isn't alive because ether is present. Shulk is alive because the rules of these battles state that everyone can survive in the arena without suffocating due to an incompatible atmosphere or anything, including a lack of ether.

Uh, no. You never proved that.

Actually, I believe I did.

As proven, the Monado doesn't rely on controlling ether.

It does rely on controlling ether to manipulate it, which is what Shulk does when he resets the universe.

The first = is true, but the second = isn't. When Alvis talks about controlling the universe, he doesn't talk about things that ether manipulation lets you do.

And? The universe is made of ether, so if you're manipulating the universe, you're manipulating ether.

Ether manipulation is a power that grants techniques.

Yes, but not an item that grants techniques. It's a power granted by an item (the Monado).

Since when? Using the Monado doesn't mean he's using ether manipulation.

Using the Monado to manipulate things most likely does, however.

Resetting the universe doesn't require ether control, seeing as it was stated otherwise by Alvis.

When?

"Ether, the base element of all things that exist in this world."

Egil talks about ether like it's an element, similar to germanium, oxygen, titanium, gold, mendelevium, etc. A statue can be made from gold, but gold isn't the reason the statue is in existence. Gold didn't create the statue, a statue builder did. The statue can also be made from things that aren't gold.

Manipulating gold would give you the power to manipulate a gold statue. If a gold-manipulating superhero lifts up a gold statue, chances are he's using that same gold-manipulation power.

I said Zanza's, not Alvis'.

"The Monado controls the principle upon which life is based, the source of your existence – ether. Master the principle of life and all things will bow to you. Your power should be infinite."

"The Monado controls [...] ether." Key word being "ether". "Master the principle of life [AKA ether] and all things [made of ether] will bow to you. Your power [of manipulating ether] should be infinite."

 

[Spazzy_D]

Alvis tells Shulk, "Tell me your wish." He's like a genie in a lamp. Shulk wishes for something to happen, and Alvis makes it happen.

Not really... Alvis is just the user interface. Alvis IS the Monado, and Shulk controls the Monado. If characters are allowed to use their gear, then really Shulk (at his most powerful) can do whatever it is you saw Alvis do.

 

[Munomario777]

Not really... Alvis is just the user interface. Alvis IS the Monado, and Shulk controls the Monado. If characters are allowed to use their gear, then really Shulk (at his most powerful) can do whatever it is you saw Alvis do.

Alvis is a person (or intelligent computer, same difference), not a piece of equipment. Allies aren't allowed.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Alvis is a person (or intelligent computer, same difference), not a piece of equipment. Allies aren't allowed.

Alvis is merely the manifestation of the Monado. Like I said, he's the user interface Shulk uses..... Zanza was able to destroy and recreate the Universe many times prior without consulting Alvis since he was more proficient at using the blade..... but make no mistake, the Alvis is Monado and that power belongs to Shulk.

 

[Munomario777]

Alvis is merely the manifestation of the Monado. Like I said, he's the user interface Shulk uses..... Zanza was able to destroy and recreate the Universe many times prior without consulting Alvis since he was more proficient at using the blade..... but make no mistake, the Alvis is Monado and that power belongs to Shulk.

Alvis is sentient (or self aware), and thus an ally. If Alvis truly is the Monado, then Shulk doesn't get the Monado, because the Monado is then an ally.

 

[Crystanium]

Resetting the universe doesn't require ether control, seeing as it was stated otherwise by Alvis.

Prove it.

"Ether, the base element of all things that exist in this world."

Egil talks about ether like it's an element, similar to germanium, oxygen, titanium, gold, mendelevium, etc. A statue can be made from gold, but gold isn't the reason the statue is in existence. Gold didn't create the statue, a statue builder did. The statue can also be made from things that aren't gold.

Considering there are ether rifles, ether rivers, ether deficiencies, ether crystals, ether bullets, ether wavelengths, ether energy, ether can be disturbed, &c., I find that hard to believe your definition of "element" is accurate. Egil says, "The Monado is a tool that regulates the waves of the very ether from which the world is formed." (italics mine) When he says, "the base element", he's referring to the lowest part or aspect of something abstract, especially one that is essential. Considering Homs need ether, lest they die, that' pretty damn essential. In other words, ether is the foundation of the world. No ether, no universal control.

I said Zanza's, not Alvis'.

"The Monado controls the principle upon which life is based, the source of your existence – ether. Master the principle of life and all things will bow to you. Your power should be infinite."

That doesn't contradict what Alvis said.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Alvis is sentient (or self aware), and thus an ally. If Alvis truly is the Monado, then Shulk doesn't get the Monado, because the Monado is then an ally.

He is the interface FOR the Monado. The power is still Shulks. Remember that at this point in the game he has not only his Monado, but Zanza and Meyneths as well. He literally has all the keys of creation, but he would rather let Alvis recreate thing and relinquish his personal power. Still, at the end, all that power is his.

 

[monzer]

Alvis is sentient (or self aware), and thus an ally. If Alvis truly is the Monado, then Shulk doesn't get the Monado, because the Monado is then an ally.

If Shulk doesn't get the monado, then Rosalina doesn't get Lumas. Shulk has the monado in smash, so he should get it here.

 

[Munomario777]

He is the interface FOR the Monado. The power is still Shulks. Remember that at this point in the game he has not only his Monado, but Zanza and Meyneths as well. He literally has all the keys of creation, but he would rather let Alvis recreate thing and relinquish his personal power. Still, at the end, all that power is his.

When does Shulk demonstrate this power?

If Shulk doesn't get the monado, then Rosalina doesn't get Lumas. Shulk has the monado in smash, so he should get it here.

The character is called "Rosalina & Luma". The character is not called "Shulk & Alvis". You play as Luma. You do not play as Alvis.

 

[Spazzy_D]

When does Shulk demonstrate this power?

Link's sword is Fi, but we still allow it.

Shulk has both Meyneth and Zanzas Monados at the close of the game. He also faced down Zanza, who had at the time already absorbed Meyneths power. As he literally had Meyneth and Zanzas power, any feats they performed should be attributed to his power. That's the power to create/destroy the universe, as well more mundane showings of power:

Even before this, though, he had grown powerful enough to defeat Zanza (who, let's remember, was wielding both his and Meyneths Monados.) The only other source of power, the only other Monado, was Alvis. That's what Shulk used and had been using the entire game. Alvis, who is sentient, but can't really make his own decisions. He's just a machine.... it's why he needed Shulk to decide. The Monado was a key to control the building blocks of the universe (yes, it's ether, but the world of the Bionis and Mechonis were built from the remains of our own universe, so whether or not it would work in a more standard universe is up to debate.) Remember that Alvis was the remains of an administrative computer of a phase transition experiment facility. He controlled the experiment, but someone else always controlled him.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I dunno, but he clearly is if the person he's disobeying outright says so.

@ Munomario777 stop disobeying me!!! It looks more like betrayal than insubordination.

Oh sorry, I should have clarified. Zanza has multiple voice actors. His Voice Actor in the cutscene that shows his original human self, Klaus, is the same voice actor as Shulk in both languages. And I'm not sure why you say "I know that I can't force you to change your views" to me? I certainly have no trouble adjusting my views if I hear a good argument or counterpoint. I wouldn't bother even reading the debate if I wasn't willing to consider what was being said...

I know Zanza has three different voices (Arglas, Zanza, and Claus), but I can’t find anything on the other two voices (They could also be explained via voice manipulation software. Arglas is a modified deep Claus, while Zanza is god voice Claus. This is just a guess on my part though.). Arguing with people (I’m looking at you @ Munomario777 ) can feel like slamming your head into a brick wall over and over again.

Won't Falcon eventually find him?

How? Does the Blue Falcon have sensors that can detect him?

If Shulk doesn't get the monado, then Rosalina doesn't get Lumas. Shulk has the monado in smash, so he should get it here.

You know he won’t even let Shulk have the Monado I (the one pictured in Smash) when he finds out Zanza resides in it.



Welcome @ Spazzy_D , hope you stick around!

Quick, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Spazzy_D , and @ DjinnandTonic , it is time to start the chain attack against @ Munomario777 ! I'll start off, Crazy Dance III! @ Munomario777 is toppled! Don't screw up @ Kirby Dragons !

 

[Munomario777]

Link's sword is Fi, but we still allow it.

Fi never actually does anything without Link's assistance while inside the Master Sword (he has to actually hold the sword).

Shulk has both Meyneth and Zanzas Monados at the close of the game. He also faced down Zanza, who had at the time already absorbed Meyneths power. As he literally had Meyneth and Zanzas power, any feats they performed should be attributed to his power. That's the power to create/destroy the universe, as well more mundane showings of power:

When is it stated that these powers are purely from the Monados, and not from Meyneth and Zanza themselves?

Even before this, though, he had grown powerful enough to defeat Zanza (who, let's remember, was wielding both his and Meyneths Monados.) The only other source of power, the only other Monado, was Alvis. That's what Shulk used and had been using the entire game. Alvis, who is sentient, but can't really make his own decisions. He's just a machine.... it's why he needed Shulk to decide. The Monado was a key to control the building blocks of the universe (yes, it's ether, but the world of the Bionis and Mechonis were built from the remains of our own universe, so whether or not it would work in a more standard universe is up to debate.) Remember that Alvis was the remains of an administrative computer of a phase transition experiment facility. He controlled the experiment, but someone else always controlled him.

He does still possess artificial intelligence, which constitutes him as an ally. Whether or not he obeys Shulk is irrelevant; he's still an ally.

The Monado is stated time and time again to control ether specifically, so none of this really matters anyways (if Alvis is indeed the Monado). Here's a list of possibilities;

• If Alvis did reset the universe, he's an ally, so Shulk can't reset the universe (in these battles).
• If Shulk reset the universe using the Monado(s), they only work with ether, so Shulk can't reset the universe.
• If Shulk reset the universe using his "god powers", then he's only the god of his universe (as he achieved this position by killing the former god of said universe), so Shulk can't reset the universe.
• If Alvis is the Monado, then points #1 and #2 apply, so Shulk can't reset the universe.
• If Alvis isn't an ally (even though he actually is, as he possesses artificial intelligence), and Shulk gets him in this fight, then since Alvis is the Monado, and the Monado uses ether manipulation, Shulk can't reset the universe.

No matter how ya slice it, Shulk's "god powers" or whatever's going on at the end of Xenoblade are null and void here.

@ Munomario777 stop disobeying me!!! It looks more like betrayal than insubordination.

Either way, he's making a conscious choice to disobey his master.

Arguing with people (I’m looking at you @ Munomario777 ) can feel like slamming your head into a brick wall over and over again.

I know right.

You know he won’t even let Shulk have the Monado I (the one pictured in Smash) when he finds out Zanza resides in it.

Oh, I'm fine with someone being inside a sword; as long as they're not doing anything, it's all good (and if they do help the character in question, then we could just extract them from the sword).

Welcome @ Spazzy_D , hope you stick around!

Indeed, welcome!

Quick, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Spazzy_D , and @ DjinnandTonic , it is time to start the chain attack against @ Munomario777 ! I'll start off, Crazy Dance III! @ Munomario777 is toppled! Don't screw up @ Kirby Dragons !

Haha, I got a chuckle out of this.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

I honestly don't know the context in which this occurs.

It's just the beginning cutscene of Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. The context is that Bowser shows up, attempts to kidnap Peach as usual, Mario fights him off, but it's FAR easier than it usually is. The Star Sprite then explains that his and Peach's powers weakened Bowser. Then Peach magically/telekinetically slams Bowser through the roof and off into the horizon. That's a pretty cool feat for someone that people keep ranking bottom-tier for plotpower.

 

[monzer]

How so?

Because you're logic tends to downplay all characters and consider all feats to be outliers or non-canon.

I don't see your point.

If they can take the force of a critical hit from a being that can destroy castles with at least a critical hit, they can take a castle busting hit.

Mega Leg is a glorified Bullet Bill launcher.

It's still useful.

I'm sorry?

Geodude evolves into Golum. Golom has 400 defense.

Prove it.

How would a reality warping attack not destroy a castle wall?

I can't find any sources that state that Giygas was going to destroy the world if Ness and co. didn't interfere; only that he was going to rule it.

Ummmmm..... Gygas made it pretty clear that he was going to destroy the universe and wasn't interested in ruling it. Are you just saying that on autopilot at this point?

The character is called "Rosalina & Luma". The character is not called "Shulk & Alvis". You play as Luma. You do not play as Alvis.

But you have the monado, and the monado has Alvis. By that logic Link doesn't get his sword because of Fi, Olimar has no pikmin, Kirby has no copy abilities because they come from self aware creatures, and Duck hunt doesn't exist because it doesn;t mention any character by name.

How? Does the Blue Falcon have sensors that can detect him?

I'm not sure, but it's fast enough that it could drive around the whole arena and eventually hit Snake. The battle depends on whether or not Falcon hits Snake before Snake kills him, which could go either way.

 

[Munomario777]

Because you're logic tends to downplay all characters and consider all feats to be outliers or non-canon.

Yes, because they're not well substantiated by lore or in-game proof.

If they can take the force of a critical hit from a being that can destroy castles with at least a critical hit, they can take a castle busting hit.

When do the attacks that they withstand destroy castles?

It's still useful.

Not for much.

Geodude evolves into Golum. Golom has 400 defense.

Your point being?

How would a reality warping attack not destroy a castle wall?

The same way it doesn't destroy a Pokemon.

Ummmmm..... Gygas made it pretty clear that he was going to destroy the universe and wasn't interested in ruling it. Are you just saying that on autopilot at this point?

When does he make this clear?

But you have the monado, and the monado has Alvis. By that logic Link doesn't get his sword because of Fi, Olimar has no pikmin, Kirby has no copy abilities because they come from self aware creatures, and Duck hunt doesn't exist because it doesn;t mention any character by name.

If the Monado contains Alvis, then we either remove the Monado from Shulk, or we remove Alvis from the Monado, just like we'd extract Fi from the Master Sword.

I'm not sure, but it's fast enough that it could drive around the whole arena and eventually hit Snake. The battle depends on whether or not Falcon hits Snake before Snake kills him, which could go either way.

I don't see how Snake would manage to kill Captain Falcon when he's speeding around the arena that fast.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I can't find any sources that state that Giygas was going to destroy the world if Ness and co. didn't interfere; only that he was going to rule it.

I just gave a bunch of links saying that he'd destroy it.

What about the future?

I don't remember it saying anything about the future, except that everything in the universe would be destroyed.

• The act of evolving involves changing shape, which is what ether manipulation does.
• Your analogy is void.
• With the same attacks used on Shulk? If so, prove it.
• M'kay. I'd imagine it's something to do with lighting up the Monados and saying how Zanza's power is limited and stuff.

• Evolution: the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth. Nothing about changing shape.
• The components of an analogy aren't supposed to be the same thing, or it would be circular reasoning.
• Note the arts used in his second and third forms. xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Zanza_(boss)
• Alvis never disobeys Shulk while in his possession, or while he's a machine, so he's fair use here.

• No, because they did nothing more than overflooding a black hole.
• He is; that would be the Monado.

• Alvis did nothing more than blasting the universe (assuming he's the one who did that).
• The Monado isn't installed inside the universe, and it even works outside that universe.

When have these ones?

Just because they didn't, doesn't mean they can't. They're large explosions, so they can destruct walls.

With the same attacks that were used on the Kirby crew?

Pretty much.

I know you're going to keep asking about this, so I'd like to bring up this particular example. Note how this attack bends the entire universe itself, but Kirby can survive it.

Have they applied this full force to Fox?

Yes; Fox got squashed.

Does the game define which meaning of "continental" it's referring to? There's nothing in the definition of the word about being able to destroy continents.

That definition of "continental" isn't in a dictionary. Words like "continental" or "planetary" are used by fans to describe how much power a fictional character has. The lore says that the attack has Ashera's power, which is proven to be continental.

When does this one?

See above.

And?

So Falchion can seal Bowser's attacks.

Microwaves work based on heat, not blunt force.

Point? The heat attacks the body.

Doing some research, I've found that an actual microwave would probably take about thirty minutes to kill someone (although I'm not sure how powerful the one Snake survived is).

It vaporizes people.

Then how big is the continent from Wario's POV?

Here's an example of a city, with the size observable by looking into the background.

I mean that their inability to die or get hurt in the Yoshi's Island series (barring things like bottomless pits) is a game mechanic, not the fact that Wario can live in his other games is a game mechanic. The invincibility is a game mechanic, but not the fact that they're not getting hurt.

I know, I was talking about Yoshi's Island. I didn't say Yoshi had invincibility, I just said he wasn't getting hurt due to durability.

So, when does the mountain fall on him?

I never said it did. The fortress (the size of a mountain, and which also includes a number of metallic walls) exploded on him.

I don't see any proof. Provide video of the boss attacking the protagonist, and then provide another video showing that same attack being used to destroy the object in question.

That isn't the only kind of proof. Since they're the only attacks the bosses have, that means they were used to destroy the continent and attack the protagonist.

Prove this.

Which statement?

• He's part of the universe, by virtue of the fact that "the universe" means "everything [in Xenoblade Chronicles]".
• It's the definition that we're using.

• Zanza isn't a part of the universe, and when is that definition stated?
• We can't just make up definitions. Otherwise, I could say the definition of "ally" is "a sandwich", and then everyone could bring all their friends to help them fight.

So the fact that Shulk can manipulate them is irrelevant here.

I never said he could manipulate them. I said he could use them.

A) When does he demonstrate this power?
B) And Alvis could also have them.

A) When his Monados/godhood do the resetting.
B) Alvis is a computer, he can't have Monados.

Why does he want to know the wish, and why is Shulk obligated to tell him?

I would want to know if one of my good friends was about to make a massive decision, and nobody said Shulk was obligated.

And?

So they make Shulk a god.

Why can't they?

Because gods are made for power. People like presidents use authority.

Quote him.

"Therefore, I will ask you, it's new god."

So Barack Obama can tell the Queen of England to disband all the country's troops?

Yes, and the queen might do it for a good reason.

Shulk isn't alive because ether is present. Shulk is alive because the rules of these battles state that everyone can survive in the arena without suffocating due to an incompatible atmosphere or anything, including a lack of ether.

Shulk would be alive without that rule.

Actually, I believe I did.

Actually, I believe you didn't.

It does rely on controlling ether to manipulate it, which is what Shulk does when he resets the universe.

He isn't controlling ether. He's controlling the way (which isn't made from ether) the universe grows.

And? The universe is made of ether, so if you're manipulating the universe, you're manipulating ether.

That doesn't mean he's using the Monado's ether controlling feature.

Yes, but not an item that grants techniques. It's a power granted by an item (the Monado).

It's not relevant whether it's a power or an item, or what it's granted by.

Using the Monado to manipulate things most likely does, however.

He manipulates speed in Monado Speed, and that clearly isn't ether manipulation.

When?

See above.

Manipulating gold would give you the power to manipulate a gold statue. If a gold-manipulating superhero lifts up a gold statue, chances are he's using that same gold-manipulation power.

I don't see how the second sentence is true.

"The Monado controls [...] ether." Key word being "ether". "Master the principle of life [AKA ether] and all things [made of ether] will bow to you. Your power [of manipulating ether] should be infinite."

What exactly was the point of doing that?

Prove it.

See above.

Considering there are ether rifles, ether rivers, ether deficiencies, ether crystals, ether bullets, ether wavelengths, ether energy, ether can be disturbed, &c., I find that hard to believe your definition of "element" is accurate. Egil says, "The Monado is a tool that regulates the waves of the very ether from which the world is formed." (italics mine) When he says, "the base element", he's referring to the lowest part or aspect of something abstract, especially one that is essential. Considering Homs need ether, lest they die, that' pretty damn essential. In other words, ether is the foundation of the world. No ether, no universal control.

The "regulating waves of the very ether" quote wouldn't really apply to the Monado's ether manipulation, it would just be a different ability of the sword. I don't see where it talks about controlling ether, only maintaining it. It doesn't exactly apply here.

That doesn't contradict what Alvis said.

Making your will reality doesn't mean controlling reality, or anything related to it. A kid can make his will reality when he grows up by gaining his dream job, but none of this relates to resetting the universe.

 

[Munomario777]

I just gave a bunch of links saying that he'd destroy it.

The bee kid would have no way of knowing that Giygas would destroy the universe. If he had witnessed it before time travelling, then he wouldn't live to tell the tale. "Everything in the universe could be destroyed by the hands of Giygas." If everything in the universe truly could be destroyed by Giygas, he's clearly not demonstrating this power on Ness and co. Why? Because they're part of "everything in the universe", and they're not destroyed.

I don't remember it saying anything about the future, except that everything in the universe would be destroyed.

Then it has no future-telling credibility to speak of.

• Evolution: the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth. Nothing about changing shape.
• The components of an analogy aren't supposed to be the same thing, or it would be circular reasoning.
• Note the arts used in his second and third forms. xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Zanza_(boss)
• Alvis never disobeys Shulk while in his possession, or while he's a machine, so he's fair use here.

• "Developed and diversified" can involve changing shape.
• They're not supposed to be the same thing, but they should have something in common, which the universe and a sandwich do not (at least, not in a manner that allows your analogy to work).
• World Reconstruct only affects Zanza, not Shulk.
• He has free will, sentience, and/or self awareness, so he's not.

• Alvis did nothing more than blasting the universe (assuming he's the one who did that).
• The Monado isn't installed inside the universe, and it even works outside that universe.

• Alvis reset the universe by himself. The Lumas simply caused a chain reaction that was dependent on the current circumstances (the black hole). It's like shooting an explosive missile at a building vs. causing an explosion by, say, backing up its water pipes.
• When does Shulk use the Monado outside of his universe?

Just because they didn't, doesn't mean they can't. They're large explosions, so they can destruct walls.

You'll have to prove that they can. "Large" is a relative term.

Pretty much.

I know you're going to keep asking about this, so I'd like to bring up this particular example. Note how this attack bends the entire universe itself, but Kirby can survive it.

I don't see how creating a small rift with a weak suction effect = bending the entire universe, or how bending the entire universe would be harmful to anyone. I also don't see anything pertaining to your original claim about "destroying planets".

Yes; Fox got squashed.

So, he died?

That definition of "continental" isn't in a dictionary.

It is. Yours isn't.

Words like "continental" or "planetary" are used by fans to describe how much power a fictional character has. The lore says that the attack has Ashera's power, which is proven to be continental.

How much power does "continental" or "planetary" entail?

So Falchion can seal Bowser's attacks.

A castle wall > steel armor.

Point? The heat attacks the body.

With heat. The castle wall is clearly resistant to heat, as it's touching lava.

It vaporizes people.

Impressive.

Here's an example of a city, with the size observable by looking into the background.

I see. This feat would still be considered an outlier, seeing as how Wario can be killed by much lesser forces throughout that same game.

I know, I was talking about Yoshi's Island. I didn't say Yoshi had invincibility, I just said he wasn't getting hurt due to durability.

He can't get hurt or killed by enemies. That's invincibility.

I never said it did. The fortress (the size of a mountain, and which also includes a number of metallic walls) exploded on him.

I only saw a few bits of metal fall on top of him.

That isn't the only kind of proof. Since they're the only attacks the bosses have, that means they were used to destroy the continent and attack the protagonist.

Prove that the bosses cannot have any other attacks. "They only use X attacks in their boss fights" isn't evidence of this.

Which statement?

"he uses his strongest Monado abilities on both Shulk and the universe."

• Zanza isn't a part of the universe, and when is that definition stated?
• We can't just make up definitions. Otherwise, I could say the definition of "ally" is "a sandwich", and then everyone could bring all their friends to help them fight.

• "The universe" means "everything", so yes, he is. The definition is stated here. (Or in any other dictionary.) The part in [brackets] was added to fit with the Xenoblade universe, seeing as how we're working with a multiverse here (each game has its own universe).
• Except we didn't agree on your definition. We're, of course, not adding definitions to the official English language or anything, but "ally" is being used as a shorthand term, so that we don't have to keep saying "a sentient/self aware person or computer that helps the main character without said main character's interference". The former is much quicker to type than the latter.

I never said he could manipulate them. I said he could use them.

Same difference. I asked when the Monado had been shown to manipulate things other than ether (since the combatants are not made of ether). You replied with the things the Monado attacks create, which the combatants are also not made of, so this doesn't help Shulk's case any.

A) When his Monados/godhood do the resetting.
B) Alvis is a computer, he can't have Monados.

A) Both of those are only relevant in his universe. Monados only manipulate ether, and Shulk is only a god of his universe.
B) He takes a human form, and even holds the Monado and uses it in combat, throughout the story.

I would want to know if one of my good friends was about to make a massive decision, and nobody said Shulk was obligated.

"Tell me your wish." It's a wish; Shulk is asking Alvis to do something.

So they make Shulk a god.

I don't see the logic in this. Tell me why high stat boosts means that you rule the universe and everything in it.

Because gods are made for power. People like presidents use authority.

Authority is a type of power.

"Therefore, I will ask you, it's new god."

Therefore he will ask Shulk what?

Yes, and the queen might do it for a good reason.

Such as?

Shulk would be alive without that rule.

How so? He needs ether to live, does he not?

Actually, I believe you didn't.

Well, that's to be determined by the rest of this post, so I'll leave it at that.

He isn't controlling ether. He's controlling the way (which isn't made from ether) the universe grows.

The universe is made of ether. The way something happens isn't made of anything; it's an abstract noun.

That doesn't mean he's using the Monado's ether controlling feature.

Then what is he using?

It's not relevant whether it's a power or an item, or what it's granted by.

It does.

He manipulates speed in Monado Speed, and that clearly isn't ether manipulation.

He's made of ether, and he's manipulating his own speed, which is the motion of ether relative to ether. He's manipulating ether (or an attribute thereof).

I don't see how the second sentence is true.

Oh, I don't think that was quite clear. By lifting up a gold statue, I mean doing so telekinetically (that is, without touching it or lifting it with his arms or anything).

What exactly was the point of doing that?

To prove a point.

The "regulating waves of the very ether" quote wouldn't really apply to the Monado's ether manipulation, it would just be a different ability of the sword.

Regulating waves of ether is a type of manipulating ether.

I don't see where it talks about controlling ether, only maintaining it. It doesn't exactly apply here.

It talks about doing something with ether, which is all that really matters. The Monado can do stuff with ether. The Monado cannot do stuff with things that are not made of ether.

Making your will reality doesn't mean controlling reality, or anything related to it. A kid can make his will reality when he grows up by gaining his dream job, but none of this relates to resetting the universe.

The kid has to work and train to get his dream job; he has to do something. Alvis, on the other hand, "willed it, and it happened. That is all."

 

[monzer]

Yes, because they're not well substantiated by lore or in-game proof.

But they are.

When do the attacks that they withstand destroy castles?

Didn't Reckless Godwin show you a video of this?

Not for much.

It can still withstand the force of Bowser's attacks.

Your point being?

That his defense is around 40-50 times that of a rock.

The same way it doesn't destroy a Pokemon.

Exactly, Pokemon are more durable than castle walls.

When does he make this clear?

The wiki sates that destroying the universe was what he was going to do.

I don't see how Snake would manage to kill Captain Falcon when he's speeding around the arena that fast.

He has homing missiles.