Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[monzer]

In all of those games you can beat him with fireballs as well, and Bowser has lost plenty of "proper" fights against Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi.

Sill, the only reason why Mario won was becsuse you were controlling him. Plus, Bowser is in his giant form in this.

 

[Munomario777]

Rest in peace Iwata San.

On the topic of Bowser, he wins against a bunch of opponents because he can tear through castles (at least in his "mega" form).

 

[YoshiandToad]

Still, no character I know of will be able to kill Kyle or imagineationland Butters.

@ Munomario777 @Dryn @ YoshiandToad @ DjinnandTonic
I just started working on a canon matchup chart. All I have right now are Bowser's matchups though. Tell me if this looks accurate and if the layout is decent.

Bowser curbstomps:


Bowser beats:


Bowser ties:


Bowser loses:


Bowser gets curbstomped:

I find Bowser's actual strength rather hard to gauge. Physically with raw power he trumps nearly everyone that isn't Ganondorf and maaaaybe Ike but I don't think that's what you're asking here.

But then if Bowser ties with DK, and DK has lost to Little Mac in Punch Out, why does Bowser curb stomp Mac?

Mario and Luigi always consistently defeat Bowser canonically without fail, so having them in the lose area strikes me personally as a little odd. Heck, he even goes on about how Mario always trumps him in the RPGs.

Yoshi has defeated Bowser before as well(not just Baby Bowser anymore) so I have to ask whether or not he should be in tie, since Bowser's also trapped the Yoshis in Super Mario World making it a more even match up.

Out of interest why does Bowser get curbstomped by Shulk? Doesn't the Monado only murder robots effectively? All the other curb stompers I get however.

 

[Munomario777]

I find Bowser's actual strength rather hard to gauge. Physically with raw power he trumps nearly everyone that isn't Ganondorf and maaaaybe Ike but I don't think that's what you're asking here.

We're not really talking about physical power (as in muscles and all), but rather just how much power they can show by any means (including muscles, magic, speed, etc).

But then if Bowser ties with DK, and DK has lost to Little Mac in Punch Out, why does Bowser curb stomp Mac?

I don't see Bowser tying with DK, at least not if we're allowing his form from the end of NSMBWii.

Mario and Luigi always consistently defeat Bowser canonically without fail, so having them in the lose area strikes me personally as a little odd. Heck, he even goes on about how Mario always trumps him in the RPGs.

That's usually because A) he's not in his largest form, or B) there's a conveniently placed "kill Bowser" switch at the end of the stage. Or both.

Yoshi has defeated Bowser before as well(not just Baby Bowser anymore) so I have to ask whether or not he should be in tie, since Bowser's also trapped the Yoshis in Super Mario World making it less

It depends on how exactly Yoshi won.

Out of interest why does Bowser get curbstomped by Shulk? Doesn't the Monado only murder robots effectively? All the other curb stompers I get however.

People are saying that because Shulk

Spoiler: Xenoblade spoilers

resets the universe at the end of Xenoblade.

That was only with Alvis's help, however, so it doesn't apply here (no ally assistance and all). Plus, this arena isn't made of ether.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Sadly, as I haven't played Twilight Princess (and don't care to comb through hours of LPs looking for one scene), I don't have a video. :/

I'd imagine trying to kill him would accomplish that.

Developers clarified the size? Then just use that.

I don't see how something being "an illusion" makes it indestructible.

People can jump over cars (at least, in video games). Can Shulk dodge an object moving at the high speeds we're working with?

Too bad.

What do you think Dr. Wiley was doing it the earlier games then?

You really want me to use the “size of the Japanese Archipelago between them (Bionis + Mechonis)” for calculations?

You can’t strike an illusion most of the time (yes I know he blocks with it in gameplay).

Yes he knows when to evade down to the second.

I meant, when does Shulk receive a vision?

Hm?

Not in The Wind Waker:

Do attacks have a Speed stat?

They didn't have any way to produce 45212697.67 pounds of force.

When ever an attack would knock him out or come close to doing so. This is a moot point when you realize he can use multiple Monado Arts at once in cutscenes (both Enchant and Speed are in effect against the Mechon M71 at Spiral Valley).

No ether in the first, versus everything being made of it in the second.

Still doesn’t change the fact that the first swords universally suck.

No they don’t, only the Pokemon do.

Or Mechon armor is treated to be immune to most types of physical damage.

Except, you know, the fact that it's stated to move at light speed.

Yikes. It's almost like Death Battle or something.

I'm still enjoying this.

I don’t agree with your interpretation.

It gets worse, they had an Ike vs Snake battle that required four separate topics due to hitting the 500 post limit.

But I'm growing weary.

@ Munomario777 @Dryn @ YoshiandToad @ DjinnandTonic
I just started working on a canon matchup chart. All I have right now are Bowser's matchups though. Tell me if this looks accurate and if the layout is decent.

Bowser curbstomps:


Bowser beats:


Bowser ties:


Bowser loses:


Bowser gets curbstomped:

Mega Man and team Star Fox should beat Bowser due to Time Stop and Arwings. The Links are debatable.

I did my matchup chart with a spreadsheet and gave a 1 to the winner and a 0 to the loser and had them auto calculated in a “wins” column.

Satoru Iwata, President of Nintendo of Japan passed away on July 11, 2015.

Requiescat in pace.

You speak Latin?

Out of interest why does Bowser get curbstomped by Shulk? Doesn't the Monado only murder robots effectively?

Mid and end game Shulk has an amazing record against multi story high robots, monsters and gods.



It is a sad day to lose Satoru Iwata from the world of the living but have no fear. I’m sure he is sharing a beer (or its Japanese equivalent) with Gunpei Yokoi (is there anyone else that I have forgotten about?).

Who is going to do Iwata asks (Miyamoto asks, Ito asks, or better still Riki the plush toy asks)?

Who will be the new CEO of Nintendo (No to Miyamoto and Sakamoto)? Will there be a succession war that leads to World War III?

Can we name a aircraft carrier after him (more deserving than Ronald Reagan)?

 

[monzer]

But then if Bowser ties with DK, and DK has lost to Little Mac in Punch Out, why does Bowser curb stomp Mac?

Wait, little Mac beat DK.

Mario and Luigi always consistently defeat Bowser canonically without fail, so having them in the lose area strikes me personally as a little odd. Heck, he even goes on about how Mario always trumps him in the RPGs.

Rarely does Mario ever beat Bowser without some kind of conveniently placed switched. Remember that I am talking about giant Bowser.

Yoshi has defeated Bowser before as well(not just Baby Bowser anymore) so I have to ask whether or not he should be in tie, since Bowser's also trapped the Yoshis in Super Mario World making it a more even match up.

I'm also thinking of bringing Yosh up to the tie category.

Out of interest why does Bowser get curbstomped by Shulk? Doesn't the Monado only murder robots effectively? All the other curb stompers I get however.

Shulk can see the future so Bowser's attacks(which are already telegraphed would never hit him.

 

[monzer]

Mega Man and team Star Fox should beat Bowser due to Time Stop and Arwings. The Links are debatable.

How durrable are mega man and the airwings.

I did my matchup chart with a spreadsheet and gave a 1 to the winner and a 0 to the loser and had them auto calculated in a “wins” column.

That's what I'm doing, I'm just going to post he matchups like this as I get every characters matchups.

You speak Latin?

I don't know about Dryn but Im learning Latin.

Who will be the new CEO of Nintendo (No to Miyamoto and Sakamoto)? Will there be a succession war that leads to World War III?

Sakurai?

 

[Munomario777]

What do you think Dr. Wiley was doing it the earlier games then?

Not attacking him. He was piloting a mech, but once the mech was destroyed, Mega Man wasn't being attacked, so he didn't attack Wily.

You really want me to use the “size of the Japanese Archipelago between them (Bionis + Mechonis)” for calculations?

Oh, I thought you meant that they clarified the size of the sword or the mech holding it.

You can’t strike an illusion most of the time (yes I know he blocks with it in gameplay).

If the Monado couldn't be stricken, he wouldn't be able to block with it.

Yes he knows when to evade down to the second.

I know that. I'm asking if Shulk is physically fast enough to get out of the way.

When ever an attack would knock him out or come close to doing so.

So, only when he's about to be killed?

This is a moot point when you realize he can use multiple Monado Arts at once in cutscenes (both Enchant and Speed are in effect against the Mechon M71 at Spiral Valley).

This is a moot point when you realize that it's an outlier.

No ether in the first, versus everything being made of it in the second.

Did Shulk cause this change?

Still doesn’t change the fact that the first swords universally suck.

So what would make the Master Sword better?

No they don’t, only the Pokemon do.

Exactly. Speed : Pokemon : : priority : moves.

Or Mechon armor is treated to be immune to most types of physical damage.

When is this stated?

I don’t agree with your interpretation.

How else would you interpret, quote, "the Light Speed Dash lets you race towards Rings at light speed"?

It gets worse, they had an Ike vs Snake battle that required four separate topics due to hitting the 500 post limit.

Well then.

Mega Man and team Star Fox should beat Bowser due to Time Stop and Arwings. The Links are debatable.

Time Stop has limited uses, so Mega Man can only get so many hits in (which probably won't be enough to deal with Bowser's giant form).

Mid and end game Shulk has an amazing record against multi story high robots, monsters and gods.

What sort of means does he use to defeat them? It's the means that matter, not the ends.

It is a sad day to lose Satoru Iwata from the world of the living but have no fear. I’m sure he is sharing a beer (or its Japanese equivalent) with Gunpei Yokoi (is there anyone else that I have forgotten about?).

Indeed it is.

Who is going to do Iwata asks (Miyamoto asks, Ito asks, or better still Riki the plush toy asks)?

Oh wow, I didn't know that was still going on.

Who will be the new CEO of Nintendo (No to Miyamoto and Sakamoto)? Will there be a succession war that leads to World War III?

I heard Miyamoto is a likely candidate. I believe he's joint-running the company until a new president is found.

Can we name a aircraft carrier after him (more deserving than Ronald Reagan)?

I hope so.

 

[Crystanium]

Mario barely ever beats Bowser without using some kind of switch that cause him to fall into lava or something like that.

Thinking about it, Mario has never actually defeated Bowser in the sense of actually killing him. His defeat has always been contingent on factors that are not present here.

By the way, I'm talking about bowser in his strongest form, say, giant skelloton bowser. I'm not sure about Falcon either, I don't think he is much more durable than a normal human, right?

Captain Falcon's Blue Falcon has a mass of 1,260 kg. and can travel up to 1,003 km/h (before using the booster). This is equal to a force of 351 kilonewtons, or approximately 3.3 times the thrust of a single F-22 Raptor engine and 6.2 times the maximum force of a bite from a Tyrannosaurus Rex. Has Bowser ever withstood this?

Mega man doesn't really seem that durable, although that may just be because he is overshadowed by Samus.

Mega Man's armor is made of ceramic titanium, a fictional kind of titanium. This may be referring to his exterior or interior, or both. Considering he can receive damage from weaker attacks, I suspect it's his interior, although attacks used against him just may be very powerful. A real life version of ceramic titanium would be titanium carbide. It'd be safer to go with titanium, since ceramic titanium seems to be a titanium-grade. Titanium has an elastic modulus of 116 GPa, shear modulus of 44 GPa, and bulk modulus of 110 GPa.

Elastic modulus refers to how much stress must be applied onto an object before it stretches or is compressed. Here, stiffness would be tested. Stiffness is rigidity of an object. Maybe you've placed something heavy on a shelf and that shelf began to strain where you could see it bending. To remove the bending, you'd remove the object you placed on it. Wood is more flexible than titanium. Shear modulus refers to how much stress like cutting it can withstand. Cutting paper with scissors is an example of shearing. You'd have a hard time cutting titanium with scissors. Bulk modulus also has to do with compression.

Bowser can just roast the ships of the Star Fox characters.

They'd be too high and too fast for Bowser to do any damage. Fox, Falco, and/or Wolf would have to be stupid enough to get that close with the arwing, which can shoot at great distances. After all, these are ships that are used in aerial combat. Short-range attacks would be ineffective.

Bowser Jr. has lots of giant robots and things. Charizard and Zamus would beat Bowser, but the matchup is close enough that I'll call it a tie. Ness and Lucas are pretty durable, surviving attacks from Gigues.

I don't know if Zamus would actually be able to defeat Bowser. Of course, if her suit doubles her physical capabilities, then she'd still have a strength of 88.5 metric tons and be able to run 15 m/s (33.56 mi/h). Charizard is able to melt rocks, so his flame should be able to reach up to 700 centigrade. He can also fly pretty high and wouldn't actually need to get anywhere near Bowser. He also has his mega form.

You speak Latin?

The user name I now use on other message boards is Mea quidem sententia. It's Latin for, "In my opinion". But no, I don't speak Latin. There's the saying, Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina, which is, "Everything sounds more impressive when said in Latin." Enjoy.

It is a sad day to lose Satoru Iwata from the world of the living but have no fear. I’m sure he is sharing a beer (or its Japanese equivalent) with Gunpei Yokoi (is there anyone else that I have forgotten about?).

I only know of the deaths of Gunpei Yokoi, Hiroshi Yamauchi (former president of Nintendo), and now Satoru Iwata. Although, the passing of Gunpei occurred long after he had left Nintendo, he brought a lot to Nintendo.

Who is going to do Iwata asks (Miyamoto asks, Ito asks, or better still Riki the plush toy asks)?

That's what I was wondering yesterday.

Who will be the new CEO of Nintendo (No to Miyamoto and Sakamoto)? Will there be a succession war that leads to World War III?

Shigeru Miyamoto is too busy with other work. I'm not sure what Yoshio Sakamoto is doing currently. Nothing Metroid related.

 

[monzer]

Thinking about it, Mario has never actually defeated Bowser in the sense of actually killing him.

In Super Mario Galaxy it was heavily implied that he did die, but the world was just reset, causing him to come back to life with no memory of what happened.

Captain Falcon's Blue Falcon has a mass of 1,260 kg. and can travel up to 1,003 km/h (before using the booster). This is equal to a force of 351 kilonewtons, or approximately 3.3 times the thrust of a single F-22 Raptor engine and 6.2 times the maximum force of a bite from a Tyrannosaurus Rex. Has Bowser ever withstood this?

Considering how Bowser himself is much larger than a T. rex, yes, but Falcon could just turn around and hit him again, so I'll give The Captain the win.

Mega Man's armor is made of ceramic titanium, a fictional kind of titanium. This may be referring to his exterior or interior, or both. Considering he can receive damage from weaker attacks, I suspect it's his interior, although attacks used against him just may be very powerful. A real life version of ceramic titanium would be titanium carbide. It'd be safer to go with titanium, since ceramic titanium seems to be a titanium-grade. Titanium has an elastic modulus of 116 GPa, shear modulus of 44 GPa, and bulk modulus of 110 GPa.

Elastic modulus refers to how much stress must be applied onto an object before it stretches or is compressed. Here, stiffness would be tested. Stiffness is rigidity of an object. Maybe you've placed something heavy on a shelf and that shelf began to strain where you could see it bending. To remove the bending, you'd remove the object you placed on it. Wood is more flexible than titanium. Shear modulus refers to how much stress like cutting it can withstand. Cutting paper with scissors is an example of shearing. You'd have a hard time cutting titanium with scissors. Bulk modulus also has to do with compression.

Im not really sure Bowser's exact force, but Mega Man's time stopping should be enough to call it a tie.

They'd be too high and too fast for Bowser to do any damage. Fox, Falco, and/or Wolf would have to be stupid enough to get that close with the arwing, which can shoot at great distances. After all, these are ships that are used in aerial combat. Short-range attacks would be ineffective.

I'll give them the win.

Bowser Jr's matchups
If it's close enough that it could go either way, it still counts as a tie, even if one character has a slightly higher chance of winning.

Spoiler

Curbstomps:

Win:

Tie:

Loss:

Curbstomped:

 

[Crystanium]

Mr. Iwata-san is canonically the strongest.

I totally agree. Check out his attacks.

By the way, new blog post.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

How durable are mega man and the arwings.

Sakurai?

You do remember that Arwing shields can last quite a while when in close proximity to Solar (Star Fox 64 sun stage), right? Mega Man has to fight Robot Masters like Heat Man and Fire Man.

You’ve doomed us all by starting a thermonuclear war.

I know that. I'm asking if Shulk is physically fast enough to get out of the way.

So, only when he's about to be killed?

This is a moot point when you realize that it's an outlier.

Did Shulk cause this change?

So what would make the Master Sword better?

Shulk is more maneuverable than a car.

Yes or severely injured.

How is having two Monado Arts up at the same time much of an outlier?

He wasn’t around during the end of the first universe.

Being twice as powerful as the starter swords (or more if you get it improved in ALTTP), and being able to damage Ganondorf.

When is this stated?

How else would you interpret, quote, "the Light Speed Dash lets you race towards Rings at light speed"?

Time Stop has limited uses, so Mega Man can only get so many hits in (which probably won't be enough to deal with Bowser's giant form).

Demonstrated in cutscenes and gameplay.

Sonic can’t dash in midair normally.

Bowser is a monster so Mega Man won’t hesitate to go full force against him in the beginning. He can also use Time Stop weapons to climb him and deal damage that way.

The user name I now use on other message boards is Mea quidem sententia. It's Latin for, "In my opinion". But no, I don't speak Latin. There's the saying, Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina, which is, "Everything sounds more impressive when said in Latin." Enjoy.

I only know of the deaths of Gunpei Yokoi, Hiroshi Yamauchi (former president of Nintendo), and now Satoru Iwata. Although, the passing of Gunpei occurred long after he had left Nintendo, he brought a lot to Nintendo.

Shigeru Miyamoto is too busy with other work. I'm not sure what Yoshio Sakamoto is doing currently. Nothing Metroid related.

How could you like Latin? Don’t you realize that the Romans were even worst than the Nazis!? I am fine with ominous Latin chanting during final bosses though.

Yamauchi strikes me as way to dictatorial to compare him to the other two (attempting to establish a monopoly and those obscene license fees). Don’t forget Nintendo started to lose gas with the N64 (cartridges held it back), which was released under his reign. Agreed.

I mean that I don’t approve of their game designing styles be used across Nintendo as a whole (Sticker Star meddling and Other M).

Considering how Bowser himself is much larger than a T. rex, yes, but Falcon could just turn around and hit him again, so I'll give The Captain the win.

Bowser Jr's matchups
If it's close enough that it could go either way, it still counts as a tie, even if one character has a slightly higher chance of winning.

Spoiler

Curbstomps:

Win:

Tie:

Loss:

Curbstomped:

How is Falcon hitting him again with the Blue Falcon when it wouldn’t survive the first impact?

Can’t Young Link just blast him and his machines with magic like Bombos and Ether. Snake can blast him out of the air with Stinger anti-air missiles and also destroy his other machines with rockets. Where is Fox?



Why is my desktop with 1 GB of RAM running Smash boards so much slower (I keep getting not responding messages in Firefox intermittently) than the other sites I visit?

 

[Munomario777]

Shulk is more maneuverable than a car.

Is he fast enough to dodge one moving at high speeds?

Yes or severely injured.

Then that would seem to limit his Monado Art usage.

How is having two Monado Arts up at the same time much of an outlier?

He only does it once.

He wasn’t around during the end of the first universe.

So what's your point?

Being twice as powerful as the starter swords (or more if you get it improved in ALTTP), and being able to damage Ganondorf.

What makes it deal more damage?

Demonstrated in cutscenes and gameplay.

When, and to what extent?

Sonic can’t dash in midair normally.

Actually, he can. He first did this in Sonic 3 with the Fire Shield, but since then, he's also been able to do this with techniques such as the Homing Attack, Air Boost, Jump Dash, et cetera.

Bowser is a monster so Mega Man won’t hesitate to go full force against him in the beginning.

Yes; I'm simply questioning whether or not Mega Man's "full force" is enough.

He can also use Time Stop weapons to climb him and deal damage that way.

Only once can he do this, though. It only lasts for ten seconds with only one use, and I'm not sure that Mega Man could actually climb Bowser in that time without his other weapons.

How is Falcon hitting him again with the Blue Falcon when it wouldn’t survive the first impact?

I think it can survive crashing into walls in the F-Zero series. Not sure though.

 

[monzer]

How could you like Latin? Don’t you realize that the Romans were even worst than the Nazis!? I am fine with ominous Latin chanting during final bosses though

Most ancient civilizations were like that, plus, it's useful for science stuff.

Can’t Young Link just blast him and his machines with magic like Bombos and Ether. Snake can blast him out of the air with Stinger anti-air missiles and also destroy his other machines with rockets. Where is Fox?

It wouldn't be enough to stop all of the robots since he gets every robot he ever had.

​

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Kirby Dragons

I'm honestly sick of debating all of these things. I don't really enjoy replying to these posts, frankly. This isn't really going anywhere, so I'd like to propose that we just agree to disagree until one of these arguments is actually relevant (say, brought up in a matchup). If not, then I'll simply stop replying. It's just not fun anymore.

That's funny. I felt the exact same way.

@Sodo, @ Kirby Dragons , @ monzer , @Muster What do you think of my Tier list and bonus list on page 153, post 6116?

It could use some work. Certain characters (like ) are too high, while others (like ) are too low.

@ Kirby Dragons Congratulations on getting Munomario777 to back down.

Why, thank you.

On the topic of Bowser, he wins against a bunch of opponents because he can tear through castles (at least in his "mega" form).

Most of these guys can tear through castles, so no.

No one cares except Shulkians. Ether doesn't exist in this battlefield.

Who said anything about ether? It's obviously a result of godhood.

 

[Munomario777]

Most of these guys can tear through castles, so no.

That's unrelated to durability.

Who said anything about ether? It's obviously a result of godhood.

Shulk is only a "god" over his own universe (the arena isn't in said universe), he only reset the universe because of Alvis's assistance, and he's only been shown to manipulate a universe made of ether (and specifically manipulating ether seems to be an ability of the Monado). The arena and Shulk's opponent are not made of ether.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

That's unrelated to durability.

That's not what I meant. I was saying that Bowser can't beat a lot of people because of his ability to tear through castles, since it isn't an advantage.

Shulk is only a "god" over his own universe (the arena isn't in said universe), he only reset the universe because of Alvis's assistance, and he's only been shown to manipulate a universe made of ether (and specifically manipulating ether seems to be an ability of the Monado). The arena and Shulk's opponent are not made of ether.

• Universes that aren't Shulk's universe don't have anything to keep him from resetting it.
  
• The thing that actually reset the universe wasn't Alvis, but the Monados (which Shulk has access to).
  
• Alvis is a machine. If you take it away, you have to take away Landmasters, the Blue Falcon, Samus' suit, etc.
• When the universe was reset, it was a blast. Not ether manipulation.

 

[Munomario777]

That's not what I meant. I was saying that Bowser can't beat a lot of people because of his ability to tear through castles, since it isn't an advantage.

If his opponent doesn't have the durability of a castle, he has a high chance of winning.

• Universes that aren't Shulk's universe don't have anything to keep him from resetting it.
  
• The thing that actually reset the universe wasn't Alvis, but the Monados (which Shulk has access to).
  
• Alvis is a machine. If you take it away, you have to take away Landmasters, the Blue Falcon, Samus' suit, etc.
• When the universe was reset, it was a blast. Not ether manipulation.

• Shulk only has godhood over his own universe. This isn't his universe.
• Which represent/are Alvis.
• Except Alvis has sentience/AI.
• The universe is made of ether, and it was manipulated to be different. Or controlled, or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If his opponent doesn't have the durability of a castle, he has a high chance of winning.

Not really. Bowser is slow, so whoever his opponent was would just escape and attack from a distance.

• Shulk only has godhood over his own universe. This isn't his universe.
• Which represent/are Alvis.
• Except Alvis has sentience/AI.
• The universe is made of ether, and it was manipulated to be different. Or controlled, or whatever you want to call it.

• You say that's true, but Shulk defeated Zanza (a god) before Shulk was even a god, thus giving him universal power that isn't tied with his godhood over his universe.
• We see Alvis, and then we see the Monados next to them, so that means they're separate.
• Since when?
• Yeah, people don't exactly control things by blasting them.

 

[Munomario777]

Not really. Bowser is slow, so whoever his opponent was would just escape and attack from a distance.

You'd be surprised.

• You say that's true, but Shulk defeated Zanza (a god) before Shulk was even a god, thus giving him universal power that isn't tied with his godhood over his universe.
• We see Alvis, and then we see the Monados next to them, so that means they're separate.
• Since when?
• Yeah, people don't exactly control things by blasting them.

• How does that mean that he can reset the universe?
• When?
• Since he appeared as a human and expressed these traits.
• They control the blasting.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

You'd be surprised.

Explain.

• How does that mean that he can reset the universe?
• When?
• Since he appeared as a human and expressed these traits.
• They control the blasting.

• He has universal abilities that work other than in his own universe.
• Right when Shulk was getting ready to reset it.
• That wasn't when Shulk was resetting the universe, was it?
• I can control a blast and hit a building, but I don't control the building.

 

[Munomario777]

Explain.

He demonstrates decent speed in the games.

• He has universal abilities that work other than in his own universe.
• Right when Shulk was getting ready to reset it.
• That wasn't when Shulk was resetting the universe, was it?
• I can control a blast and hit a building, but I don't control the building.

• When does he use them outside his own universe?
• Do you have an image/video of this?
• No, but I don't see how this is relevant. It's the same Alvis.
• Shulk, as a god of his universe, has control over his universe. The flash of light is a result of the universe resetting. It comes from Alvis (represented by the Monados), implying that Alvis was the source of this (Shulk instructed him to do this).

 

[Crystanium]

How could you like Latin? Don’t you realize that the Romans were even worst than the Nazis!? I am fine with ominous Latin chanting during final bosses though.

That's guilt by association. That'd be like asking how I can like German because of its association with Nazism. Also, if you like Latin chanting, you might like the choral chants from a Norfair remix called Braving the Flames. Aside from the Norfair remix, Ashes to Ashes (a dubstep remix), Braving the Flames was the first remix I really enjoyed. The others were lacking.

How is Falcon hitting him again with the Blue Falcon when it wouldn’t survive the first impact?

Considering the high speed it travels, it'd need to have something to protect it. The boost that the F-Zero vehicles use are also used to shield the vehicle.

Who said anything about ether? It's obviously a result of godhood.

I have, as has Munomario777. We've defended the idea that ether does not exist outside of the Xenoblade universe, and therefore Shulk would not be able to reset the universe. We've also defended our position on Alvis' aid in doing so, as well as the modus operandi of Shulk, which would affect that decision in the first place. I also am defending Shulk's use of ether with respect to himself. So he can use vision, but I don't know if vision can be used constantly like Samus' sense move. It's never been that way in the cut-scenes from what I've seen.

That's not what I meant. I was saying that Bowser can't beat a lot of people because of his ability to tear through castles, since it isn't an advantage.

• Universes that aren't Shulk's universe don't have anything to keep him from resetting it.
  
• The thing that actually reset the universe wasn't Alvis, but the Monados (which Shulk has access to).
  
• Alvis is a machine. If you take it away, you have to take away Landmasters, the Blue Falcon, Samus' suit, etc.
• When the universe was reset, it was a blast. Not ether manipulation.

• They do, actually. Other universes don't rely on ether for the entire universe to exist. Besides, just because I'm the CEO of a car company, doesn't mean I'm the CEO of all car companies. (I'm really not, but I'm illustrating a point.)
  
• The Monados only affect ether, which the universe Shulk is on is made of. From the game script, ether seems to be a very essential piece to the plot.
• Alvis is also conscious and self-aware. Landmasters are not, the Blue Falcon is not, and Samus' armor is not. Her armor is integrated into her body, which means you remove that, you remove her.
• That blast was probably the result of ether manipulation, since the Monado affects ether. I can post up everything necessary to inform you on that fact.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Is he fast enough to dodge one moving at high speeds?

Then that would seem to limit his Monado Art usage.

He only does it once.

What makes it deal more damage?

Actually, he can. He first did this in Sonic 3 with the Fire Shield, but since then, he's also been able to do this with techniques such as the Homing Attack, Air Boost, Jump Dash, et cetera.

Only once can he do this, though. It only lasts for ten seconds with only one use, and I'm not sure that Mega Man could actually climb Bowser in that time without his other weapons.

Cars don’t move that fast.

Not really, as that is the time when he needs it most.

Talent Gauge is never brought up in canon.

It would be made from better materials than your average sword. It also gets tempered and then blessed by a fairy later.

I still doubt his light speed claims.

He has more than one time stopping weapon and he also has a time slowing weapon too.

Most ancient civilizations were like that, plus, it's useful for science stuff.

It wouldn't be enough to stop all of the robots since he gets every robot he ever had.​

​

I like the “barbarians” more to be honest (like the Vikings and Mongols).

Chateau Romani (Young Link) and Infinity headband (Snake) say hi.

It could use some work. Certain characters (like ) are too high, while others (like ) are too low.

Arwings are overpowered and I knew you would complain about the Kirby characters. What’s so good about Mii Brawler?

Did the Dragon Quest Hero (your avatar) join the roster when I wasn't looking?

That's guilt by association. That'd be like asking how I can like German because of its association with Nazism. Also, if you like Latin chanting, you might like the choral chants from a Norfair remix called Braving the Flames. Aside from the Norfair remix, Ashes to Ashes (a dubstep remix), Braving the Flames was the first remix I really enjoyed. The others were lacking.



Considering the high speed it travels, it'd need to have something to protect it. The boost that the F-Zero vehicles use are also used to shield the vehicle.

Guilt by Association is fun! Germans are likable because of their culture, advances in science, getting us to the moon, beer halls, impressive military record, giving the British a black eye at sea multiple times, and fatally wounding the evil Soviet Union. Can the Romans claim that? I want badass Germany back (at least Putin wouldn’t be pulling his nonsense with them around)!

I didn’t know that.

 

[Crystanium]

Guilt by Association is fun! Germans are likable because of their culture, advances in science, getting us to the moon, beer halls, impressive military record, giving the British a black eye at sea multiple times, and fatally wounding the evil Soviet Union. Can the Romans claim that? I want badass Germany back (at least Putin wouldn’t be pulling his nonsense with them around)!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm interested in the country because of my background ethnicity.

I didn’t know that.

Yep. F-Zero vehicles can also do a spin attack without receiving damage and use side attacks to cause more damage. Doing either of these will increase the boost meter.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Are we allowing composite stuff for Ryu? Because his VS series appearances might actually be top tier with his unlimited Hadou energy generation combined with the demonic power of Dark Hadou from a handful of his appearances plus his use of Bison's Psycho Power in SFA2. There's also his appearance in Asura's Wrath where he literally can kill a Hindu god demon.

(lol more god killers in smash this makes like what? ten of them now?)

 

[Munomario777]

Cars don’t move that fast.

The Blue Falcon can reach speeds of 457 km/h (283.967 mph), without factoring in the boost.

Not really, as that is the time when he needs it most.

What about for attacking?

Talent Gauge is never brought up in canon.

Is the game not canon?

It would be made from better materials than your average sword. It also gets tempered and then blessed by a fairy later.

So, how much force has it been shown to resist?

I still doubt his light speed claims.

Why is that?

Also, it's a "her".

He has more than one time stopping weapon and he also has a time slowing weapon too.

Which ones?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I have, as has Munomario777. We've defended the idea that ether does not exist outside of the Xenoblade universe, and therefore Shulk would not be able to reset the universe. We've also defended our position on Alvis' aid in doing so, as well as the modus operandi of Shulk, which would affect that decision in the first place. I also am defending Shulk's use of ether with respect to himself. So he can use vision, but I don't know if vision can be used constantly like Samus' sense move. It's never been that way in the cut-scenes from what I've seen.

I agree that ether doesn't exist outside of Xenoblade, but not that Shulk can't reset the universe. We see that it was some sort of god blast that reset the universe, not ether manipulation. Shulk's Monados are really the reason why the universe was reset, and not that Alvis did all the work for him.

• They do, actually. Other universes don't rely on ether for the entire universe to exist. Besides, just because I'm the CEO of a car company, doesn't mean I'm the CEO of all car companies. (I'm really not, but I'm illustrating a point.)
  
• The Monados only affect ether, which the universe Shulk is on is made of. From the game script, ether seems to be a very essential piece to the plot.
• Alvis is also conscious and self-aware. Landmasters are not, the Blue Falcon is not, and Samus' armor is not. Her armor is integrated into her body, which means you remove that, you remove her.
• That blast was probably the result of ether manipulation, since the Monado affects ether. I can post up everything necessary to inform you on that fact.

• As mentioned above, it isn't ether manipulation that is doing it.
• As mentioned above, it isn't ether manipulation that is doing it.
• Alvis is really just telling Shulk that he has the power, it's not like he does anything conscious or self-aware.
• The blast came out of the Monados and expanded, rather than instantly touching all the ether in the universe.

Are we allowing composite stuff for Ryu? Because his VS series appearances might actually be top tier with his unlimited Hadou energy generation combined with the demonic power of Dark Hadou from a handful of his appearances plus his use of Bison's Psycho Power in SFA2. There's also his appearance in Asura's Wrath where he literally can kill a Hindu god demon.

(lol more god killers in smash this makes like what? ten of them now?)

We shouldn't allow his stuff from Asura's Wrath (it's non-canon). I'm not exactly sure about his VS series, though.

He demonstrates decent speed in the games.

Do you have a video?

• When does he use them outside his own universe?
• Do you have an image/video of this?
• No, but I don't see how this is relevant. It's the same Alvis.
• Shulk, as a god of his universe, has control over his universe. The flash of light is a result of the universe resetting. It comes from Alvis (represented by the Monados), implying that Alvis was the source of this (Shulk instructed him to do this).

• He doesn't exactly use them outside the universe, but he uses his universal powers on something that isn't his universe.
• http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...d_Alvis.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150716132531
• He's pretty different. Shulk wouldn't be using him as a Homs, but instead a machine.
• It comes from the Monados. Alvis isn't a god, but Shulk is, implying that Shulk was the source of this.

Arwings are overpowered and I knew you would complain about the Kirby characters.

What's so overpowered about Arwings? Besides, many characters are powerful enough to destroy them, or at least their weapons.

What’s so good about Mii Brawler?

He's pretty strong. He should at least be above , seeing as he's higher on the (canon to his universe) tier list.

Also, are the Mii Fighters allowed to use items?

 

[Munomario777]

I agree that ether doesn't exist outside of Xenoblade, but not that Shulk can't reset the universe. We see that it was some sort of god blast that reset the universe, not ether manipulation. Shulk's Monados are really the reason why the universe was reset, and not that Alvis did all the work for him.

If the Monados are the reason that the universe was reset:

• The Monados manipulate ether.
• Shulk's universe is made of ether.
• The Monados resetting the universe is, thus, a form of ether manipulation (or doing something involving ether). The blast of light does nothing to disprove this.
• The arena isn't made of ether, so Shulk can't reset the universe.

If Alvis is the reason that the universe was reset:

• Alvis demonstrates consciousness and self-awareness on multiple occasions. He does useful things without Shulk's interference or involvement, which alone constitutes him as an "ally".
• Alvis is an ally, so Shulk doesn't get him and has no means of resetting the universe.

No matter how the universe was reset, Shulk can't reset it in this battle.

• As mentioned above, it isn't ether manipulation that is doing it.
• As mentioned above, it isn't ether manipulation that is doing it.
• Alvis is really just telling Shulk that he has the power, it's not like he does anything conscious or self-aware.
• The blast came out of the Monados and expanded, rather than instantly touching all the ether in the universe.

• As mentioned above, it is.
• As mentioned above, it is.
• "Tell me your wish." (I might be paraphrasing here.) - Alvis
  For whatever reason, Shulk has to tell Alvis his "wish" for it to take effect, like a king commanding his army. The army has a lot of brute force, but the king does not; the king only has the power of authority. The same thing applies here.
• And?

Do you have a video?

Yes. Look at him leap in from the left hand side of the screen.

• He doesn't exactly use them outside the universe, but he uses his universal powers on something that isn't his universe.
• http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...d_Alvis.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150716132531
• He's pretty different. Shulk wouldn't be using him as a Homs, but instead a machine.
• It comes from the Monados. Alvis isn't a god, but Shulk is, implying that Shulk was the source of this.

• When?
• Do you have a clearer image?
• It's the same Alvis.
• Doesn't Alvis have a track record of resetting the universe and things like that?

He's pretty strong. He should at least be above , seeing as he's higher on the (canon to his universe) tier list.

Also, are the Mii Fighters allowed to use items?

Smash tier lists are way different from canon tier lists. I'd probably put the gunner above the others in a situation like this, if only for their range. Mii Fighters are weird.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Mii Characters -do- have a canon story to follow, not just Smash. The Find Mii Streetpass game has a (simple) plot and all the characters are Miis.

In the game, they are all wandering adventurers with some basic weaponry and shields. They can also all use one magic spell depending on what color they are, ranging from stuff like a simple Fire or Ice spell, to some status effects like Slow and Defense Down. In the game, they all fight against generic ghost enemies, some of which can only be harmed by magic. Their goal is to beat the Very Large Ghost and rescue the kidnapped King/Queen Mii.

This would likely put them on the low end overall as the Miis can usually only take one hit before being lost permanently (the point of the game is to gather lots of streetpass Miis to throw at the ghosts).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If the Monados are the reason that the universe was reset:

• The Monados manipulate ether.
• Shulk's universe is made of ether.
• The Monados resetting the universe is, thus, a form of ether manipulation (or doing something involving ether). The blast of light does nothing to disprove this.
• The arena isn't made of ether, so Shulk can't reset the universe.

• Monados do things that aren't controlling ether, you know.
• When does ether manipulation happen in a blast of light?

If Alvis is the reason that the universe was reset:

• Alvis demonstrates consciousness and self-awareness on multiple occasions. He does useful things without Shulk's interference or involvement, which alone constitutes him as an "ally".
• Alvis is an ally, so Shulk doesn't get him and has no means of resetting the universe.

• He doesn't do those things when he's in Shulk's possession.

• As mentioned above, it is.
• As mentioned above, it is.
• "Tell me your wish." (I might be paraphrasing here.) - Alvis
  For whatever reason, Shulk has to tell Alvis his "wish" for it to take effect, like a king commanding his army. The army has a lot of brute force, but the king does not; the king only has the power of authority. The same thing applies here.
• And?

• Shulk has much more than just authority. He has the force, it's in both him (he's a god) and his Monados.
• So it's not ether manipulation.

Yes. Look at him leap in from the left hand side of the screen.

That's more of something he does once at a time, while the opponent keeps running. Mario running at an average speed was able to avoid him.

• When?
• Do you have a clearer image?
• It's the same Alvis.
• Doesn't Alvis have a track record of resetting the universe and things like that?

• When fighting Zanza.
• How about this one?
• It's not. The other Alvis isn't made of energy, nor is he a machine.
• Where'd you get that from?

Smash tier lists are way different from canon tier lists. I'd probably put the gunner above the others in a situation like this, if only for their range. Mii Fighters are weird.

Mii Brawlers have speed to make up for their lack of range, in addition to power. However, Mii Gunners are rather slow, and weak.

Mii Characters -do- have a canon story to follow, not just Smash. The Find Mii Streetpass game has a (simple) plot and all the characters are Miis.

In the game, they are all wandering adventurers with some basic weaponry and shields. They can also all use one magic spell depending on what color they are, ranging from stuff like a simple Fire or Ice spell, to some status effects like Slow and Defense Down. In the game, they all fight against generic ghost enemies, some of which can only be harmed by magic. Their goal is to beat the Very Large Ghost and rescue the kidnapped King/Queen Mii.

This would likely put them on the low end overall as the Miis can usually only take one hit before being lost permanently (the point of the game is to gather lots of streetpass Miis to throw at the ghosts).

I'm pretty sure that are different from those Miis, since the Streetpass Miis don't use the things the Mii Fighters use.

 

[Munomario777]

• Monados do things that aren't controlling ether, you know.
• When does ether manipulation happen in a blast of light?

• He doesn't do those things when he's in Shulk's possession.

• Such as?
• When is it stated that blasts of light cannot occur as a result of ether manipulation?
• He seems to when he's talking with Shulk before the universe is reset.

• Shulk has much more than just authority. He has the force, it's in both him (he's a god) and his Monados.
• So it's not ether manipulation.

• Prove this.
• I don't see your logic.

That's more of something he does once at a time, while the opponent keeps running. Mario running at an average speed was able to avoid him.

I'd imagine he could do it constantly.

• When fighting Zanza.
• How about this one?
• It's not. The other Alvis isn't made of energy, nor is he a machine.
• Where'd you get that from?

• Since when is Zanza not part of Shulk's universe?
• I don't see Alvis there.
• This Mario is a statue, whereas this one is not. Does that mean that they're not the same person?
• Wasn't he the computer behind resetting the universe or something along those lines?

Mii Brawlers have speed to make up for their lack of range, in addition to power. However, Mii Gunners are rather slow, and weak.

Speed and power depend on the size of the Mii.

I'm pretty sure that are different from those Miis, since the Streetpass Miis don't use the things the Mii Fighters use.

Like swords?

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm interested in the country because of my background ethnicity.

Your part German as well? I’m still disgusted at the allied powers for the ethnic cleansing/deportation of German and Japanese civilians from their homes.

Did you hear about Oskar Groening? What’s next? Will they imprison all taxpayers from the era of the third Reich? All of this just rubs me the wrong way.

The Blue Falcon can reach speeds of 457 km/h (283.967 mph), without factoring in the boost.

What about for attacking?

Is the game not canon?

Also, it's a "her".

Which ones?

Not even three times faster than a car.

If he never dies then attacking isn’t really a priority.

Shulk never runs into issues of this nature during cutscenes, so the interpretation can go either way.

Sonic is transgender now?

What's so overpowered about Arwings? Besides, many characters are powerful enough to destroy them, or at least their weapons.

He's pretty strong. He should at least be above , seeing as he's higher on the (canon to his universe) tier list.

Arwings can fly at a decent speed, tank a fair number of blows with their shields, and attack from a distance with double laser spam, charged homing shots against vehicles, and massive AOE Smart Bombs.

Can’t support you there.

Mii Characters -do- have a canon story to follow, not just Smash. The Find Mii Streetpass game has a (simple) plot and all the characters are Miis.

In the game, they are all wandering adventurers with some basic weaponry and shields. They can also all use one magic spell depending on what color they are, ranging from stuff like a simple Fire or Ice spell, to some status effects like Slow and Defense Down. In the game, they all fight against generic ghost enemies, some of which can only be harmed by magic. Their goal is to beat the Very Large Ghost and rescue the kidnapped King/Queen Mii.

This would likely put them on the low end overall as the Miis can usually only take one hit before being lost permanently (the point of the game is to gather lots of streetpass Miis to throw at the ghosts).

Aren’t the Find Mii Miis supposed to lack stamina, going home after one attack (I heard about this here http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/71852365)? They sound like the most useless adventurers ever!

 

[Crystanium]

Are we allowing composite stuff for Ryu? Because his VS series appearances might actually be top tier with his unlimited Hadou energy generation combined with the demonic power of Dark Hadou from a handful of his appearances plus his use of Bison's Psycho Power in SFA2. There's also his appearance in Asura's Wrath where he literally can kill a Hindu god demon.

(lol more god killers in smash this makes like what? ten of them now?)

The match between Ryu and Asura is non-canon. Of course, as Satsui Ryu, he should be more powerful.

The Blue Falcon can reach speeds of 457 km/h (283.967 mph), without factoring in the boost.

Top speed without the boost from F-Zero GX is 1,003 km/h (623 mi/h), or Mach 0.81.

I agree that ether doesn't exist outside of Xenoblade, but not that Shulk can't reset the universe. We see that it was some sort of god blast that reset the universe, not ether manipulation. Shulk's Monados are really the reason why the universe was reset, and not that Alvis did all the work for him.

Prove that Monado can affect other universes. That's what you need to do before it can be accepted. Telling me "that it was some sort of god blast" doesn't tell me anything. I have no reason to think that this was the result of anything other than ether. After all, the Monado is necessary for this to occur.

"The Monado has been passed down the imperial line for generations. The sword of the Bionis. It is compelled to do its master's bidding. Magnified greatly, it has the power to control the very fabric of our world – ether. Control the ether and your will is made reality. I willed it, and it happened. That is all." - Alvis

"The Monado controls the principle upon which life is based, the source of your existence – ether. Master the principle of life and all things will bow to you. Your power should be infinite." - Zanza

"Ether, the base element of all things that exist in this world." - Egil

"Ether is the very source of our world's existence. Where and how much ether there exists now, and in the future, can be predicted." - Alvis

As mentioned above, it isn't ether manipulation that is doing it.
As mentioned above, it isn't ether manipulation that is doing it.

These tell me nothing.

Alvis is really just telling Shulk that he has the power, it's not like he does anything conscious or self-aware.

He's communicating with Shulk. He'd need to be conscious and aware. As far as I'm aware, Alvis behaves no different than Shulk or any other Hom or Mechon.

The blast came out of the Monados and expanded, rather than instantly touching all the ether in the universe.

That's irrelevant because all that would be required is the use of ether, which the Monado uses as evidenced by the quotes from the game.

Your part German as well? I’m still disgusted at the allied powers for the ethnic cleansing/deportation of German and Japanese civilians from their homes.

My background ethnicity is German, French, Irish, and Belgian. I'm not sure what other ethnicity I am. You're free to feel disgusted, but I'm not focusing on this right now. Just video games.

Did you hear about Oskar Groening? What’s next? Will they imprison all taxpayers from the era of the third Reich? All of this just rubs me the wrong way.

No. I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm not here to discuss these things. I'm here to discuss video games.

Not even three times faster than a car.

Munomario777 was using the information from the SNES version. The Blue Falcon's top speed without using the boost is Mach 0.81. It's faster than sound with the boost.

 

[Munomario777]

Not even three times faster than a car.

I haven't seen Shulk dodge things moving at a car's speed, so I don't see the issue here.

If he never dies then attacking isn’t really a priority.

How exactly will he defeat the opponent without attacking?

Also, his ability to have visions might be diminished due to the lack of ether.

Shulk never runs into issues of this nature during cutscenes, so the interpretation can go either way.

The way you put it earlier, the cutscene seems to be an outlier.

Sonic is transgender now?

No, it was Tikal who said it in Sonic Adventure.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

I'm pretty sure that are different from those Miis, since the Streetpass Miis don't use the things the Mii Fighters use.

They aren't that much different than the skillsets given to other Smash characters like Falcon and Jigglypuff compared to their own home games. Also, the Find Mii stage is their official stage and that literally has the game's title as its name. It's also the closest thing they have to a game with a plot/canon. Not even Smash gives them any canon plot, so if we're looking for feats, this is the place to do it.

Otherwise, if we're using Smash canon, they're just trophies/toys like ROB, right?

 

[monzer]

Aren’t the Find Mii Miis supposed to lack stamina, going home after one attack (I heard about this here http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/71852365)? They sound like the most useless adventurers ever!

They literally just get scared away and leave. Anyway, I just think the Miis should just be assumed to be a generic person with the weapons they have in smash.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

• Such as?
• When is it stated that blasts of light cannot occur as a result of ether manipulation?
• He seems to when he's talking with Shulk before the universe is reset.

• Monado Arts and basic sword functions.
• When ether manipulation occurs in the game, a blast of light doesn't happen.
• How?

• Prove this.
• I don't see your logic.

• He was called a god in the game, and it was the Monados that generated the blast.
• If it was ether manipulation, we would've seen the blast actually going straight to the ether and controlling it.

I'd imagine he could do it constantly.

Even so, there would be enough time in between for his enemy to escape.

• Since when is Zanza not part of Shulk's universe?
• I don't see Alvis there.
• This Mario is a statue, whereas this one is not. Does that mean that they're not the same person?
• Wasn't he the computer behind resetting the universe or something along those lines?

• He isn't the universe, proving that Shulk can use his powers on things that aren't his universe.
• He's the green energy.
• Mario is turning into a new form there, but Alvis doesn't turn into a new form; the form that Shulk has him in is his original form. Either way, that Mario isn't a machine, but Alvis is. Alvis' original form is also a machine, meaning he'd be anyways unable to do the sentient things he did as a Homs in the middle of the game.
  
• He was (and is) a computer, but I don't know where you got that he had been resetting the universe.

Speed and power depend on the size of the Mii.

We should be using Mii Fighters of an average size, since it's most standard, and that's what's in their official artwork.

Like swords?

Yeah.

Prove that Monado can affect other universes. That's what you need to do before it can be accepted. Telling me "that it was some sort of god blast" doesn't tell me anything. I have no reason to think that this was the result of anything other than ether. After all, the Monado is necessary for this to occur.

Monados can do things that aren't controlling ether, like the Monado Arts. The Monado can affect universes, as its function is to be a universal sword, and it creates blasts that reset the universe they touch.

"The Monado has been passed down the imperial line for generations. The sword of the Bionis. It is compelled to do its master's bidding. Magnified greatly, it has the power to control the very fabric of our world – ether. Control the ether and your will is made reality. I willed it, and it happened. That is all." - Alvis

"The Monado controls the principle upon which life is based, the source of your existence – ether. Master the principle of life and all things will bow to you. Your power should be infinite." - Zanza

"Ether, the base element of all things that exist in this world." - Egil

"Ether is the very source of our world's existence. Where and how much ether there exists now, and in the future, can be predicted." - Alvis

None of these talk about how the Monado can only control ether.

These tell me nothing.

If you looked above, you would have seen something.

He's communicating with Shulk. He'd need to be conscious and aware. As far as I'm aware, Alvis behaves no different than Shulk or any other Hom or Mechon.

The Pixls can communicate with Mario, making them conscious and aware, but he can still use those here. The only thing Alvis was really saying to Shulk was that he has the power, and also the history of the Monado. Those things don't seem like any sort of ally assistance.

That's irrelevant because all that would be required is the use of ether, which the Monado uses as evidenced by the quotes from the game.

None of the quotes talk about how the Monado only does things that are controlling ether. The thing that Shulk did was recreate the universe without gods, so ether wouldn't really come into play there.

Arwings can fly at a decent speed, tank a fair number of blows with their shields, and attack from a distance with double laser spam, charged homing shots against vehicles, and massive AOE Smart Bombs.

That should put them sort of high, but not in a tier with guys like Mewtwo or Ness.

They aren't that much different than the skillsets given to other Smash characters like Falcon and Jigglypuff compared to their own home games. Also, the Find Mii stage is their official stage and that literally has the game's title as its name. It's also the closest thing they have to a game with a plot/canon. Not even Smash gives them any canon plot, so if we're looking for feats, this is the place to do it.

Alright then.

Otherwise, if we're using Smash canon, they're just trophies/toys like ROB, right?

What? The Mii Fighters are capable fighters, as we see in the Smash battles.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Do we consider Mii Fighters as Smash OC's or as the Miis seen in the Wii-games?

 

[Munomario777]

• Monado Arts and basic sword functions.
• When ether manipulation occurs in the game, a blast of light doesn't happen.
• How?

• Neither of those seem comparable to resetting the universe.
• And? It's not nearly as large scale as resetting the universe.
• What do you mean, "how?"

• He was called a god in the game, and it was the Monados that generated the blast.
• If it was ether manipulation, we would've seen the blast actually going straight to the ether and controlling it.

• Being called a god means nothing. The Monados control ether (as stated multiple times throughout the story), so we can safely assume that this is a form of ether manipulation.
• Didn't it go outwards? The entire universe is what it's controlling, so if the blast spread out to the entire universe, I see no issue.

Even so, there would be enough time in between for his enemy to escape.

Constantly as in, without stopping.

• He isn't the universe, proving that Shulk can use his powers on things that aren't his universe.
• He's the green energy.
• Mario is turning into a new form there, but Alvis doesn't turn into a new form; the form that Shulk has him in is his original form. Either way, that Mario isn't a machine, but Alvis is. Alvis' original form is also a machine, meaning he'd be anyways unable to do the sentient things he did as a Homs in the middle of the game.
  
• He was (and is) a computer, but I don't know where you got that he had been resetting the universe.

• By definition, "universe" includes everything, including Zanza.
• Prove this.
• If Alvis never changed forms, then I see even less reason for them to be separate. Artificial intelligence on that level still makes him an ally.

Monados can do things that aren't controlling ether, like the Monado Arts.

Which have nothing to do with resetting universes.

The Monado can affect universes, as its function is to be a universal sword, and it creates blasts that reset the universe they touch.

...via ether manipulation.

None of these talk about how the Monado can only control ether.

Ether manipulation is the only thing that the Monado has done that is similar to resetting a universe.

The Pixls can communicate with Mario, making them conscious and aware, but he can still use those here.

Wait, really? Aside from Paper Mario being an alternate canon, the Pixls count as allies (in my book anyway).

The only thing Alvis was really saying to Shulk was that he has the power, and also the history of the Monado. Those things don't seem like any sort of ally assistance.

He also informs Shulk that he has to tell him his "wish".

None of the quotes talk about how the Monado only does things that are controlling ether. The thing that Shulk did was recreate the universe without gods, so ether wouldn't really come into play there.

The universe is made of ether.