Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Muster]

The clock didn't attack at all (like he would during the time freeze), leading me to believe that time was never frozen in the first place.

in that particular instance the clock attacked a single time and Ness (actually jeff in this case) dodged it You can tell that time is stopped because the bgm stops and there are no other actions until time begins moving again. It can attack up to 4 (in my experience) times while it freezes time, but you still have a chance to evade each one individually

A sentient one, which makes him an ally.

That doesn't necessitate destroying and then creating everything.

I don't think it's ever clearly distinguished if He actually has sentience or if he's just following his coding.

the universe is recreated at the end, your imagining of what plainly happened really isn't a factor when evidence can't back it up.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, if we're basing this off of what a mach cone would act like, and mach cones cannot exist in a vacuum, then the visual effect likely isn't a mach cone, and if it is, it's different from ones in real life (real life mach cones cannot form in a vacuum).

Pit talks in space. Pit flies in space. Both are impossible to do in space because in order to speak, there needs to be air. In order to fly, there needs to be air. The fact is, if the developers intended to show Pit flying supersonic, that'd be the only way to indicate it.

Well, if the arena is in a different universe from the fighters' homeworlds, then I don't see that working out. Of course, things like Ganondorf's Triforce of Power would still work, as a god/goddess doesn't need to actively do something for the item to take effect; same thing goes with the Master Sword and such.

I don't see any indication that Pit needs Palutena's aid to use these powers. In fact, can you prove Pit relies on Palutena to use these abilities in the first place? After all, there is a difference between these items being created by Palutena for Pit to use and Palutena being an active role in being able to use these abilities.

 

[Munomario777]

in that particular instance the clock attacked a single time and Ness (actually jeff in this case) dodged it You can tell that time is stopped because the bgm stops and there are no other actions until time begins moving again.

I don't recall the clock using another action besides freezing time.

I don't think it's ever clearly distinguished if He actually has sentience or if he's just following his coding.

We see him appear as a human throughout the game. If it's not sentience, it's at least artificial intelligence, which also counts.

the universe is recreated at the end, your imagining of what plainly happened really isn't a factor when evidence can't back it up.

I don't see any evidence of Shulk destroying the universe.

Pit talks in space.

It's telepathy, from my understanding.

Pit flies in space.

Not by flapping his wings or anything.

Both are impossible to do in space because in order to speak, there needs to be air. In order to fly, there needs to be air.

He's not talking; he's communicating telepathically. The flight is more goddess magic than anything else, and space ships seem to propel themselves just fine.

The fact is, if the developers intended to show Pit flying supersonic, that'd be the only way to indicate it.

Except, you know, saying that he can fly at supersonic speeds.

I don't see any indication that Pit needs Palutena's aid to use these powers. In fact, can you prove Pit relies on Palutena to use these abilities in the first place? After all, there is a difference between these items being created by Palutena for Pit to use and Palutena being an active role in being able to use these abilities.

That's what it says on the wiki, and I've also heard it elsewhere. It's the reason she uses the Powers as her special moves in Smash Brothers.

 

[Muster]

I don't recall the clock using another action besides freezing time.

the action that is evaded is an attempted attack. That should be pretty obvious.

We see him appear as a human throughout the game. If it's not sentience, it's at least artificial intelligence, which also counts.

appearing as a human proves nothing, you know. "To you, I am a machine, that is my original form". He is a man made tool that shulk can use to his own ends.

I don't see any evidence of Shulk destroying the universe.

Go to 34:25. That's the big crunch happening, containing the entire universe into a single atom and then recreating the big bang.
We're talking limitless energy required here.

 

[Munomario777]

the action that is evaded is an attempted attack. That should be pretty obvious.

I didn't see an attack be attempted in the first place.

appearing as a human proves nothing, you know.

Humans are sentient, and sentient beings are allies.

"To you, I am a machine, that is my original form". He is a man made tool that shulk can use to his own ends.

A sentient one.

Go to 34:25. That's the big crunch happening, containing the entire universe into a single atom and then recreating the big bang.
We're talking limitless energy required here.

His attacks don't demonstrate "limitless energy".

 

[Muster]

I didn't see an attack be attempted in the first place.

When it stops time, either damage appears or an evasion notification appears, it was an attempted attack.

Humans are sentient, and sentient beings are allies.

A sentient one.

Machines aren't sentient, they are programmed. He appears as a human as part of his programming, this shouldn't be so hard to understand.

His attacks don't demonstrate "limitless energy".

The Crushing and rapid expansion of the entire universe does

 

[Munomario777]

When it stops time, either damage appears or an evasion notification appears, it was an attempted attack.

So, there's never any mention of the enemy even attempting to attack?

Machines aren't sentient, they are programmed. He appears as a human as part of his programming, this shouldn't be so hard to understand.

Then he has artificial intelligence, which also makes him an ally.

The Crushing and rapid expansion of the entire universe does

And he never demonstrates this again. He demonstrates it when he's being aided by Alvis (an ally), but he doesn't when they're separated, so he doesn't have that power here.

 

[Muster]

So, there's never any mention of the enemy even attempting to attack?

There is usually a startup quote for an attack in earthbound, but since he has stopped time there is none due to the attack being instantaneous in relation to the game's hud.

Then he has artificial intelligence, which also makes him an ally.

And he never demonstrates this again. He demonstrates it when he's being aided by Alvis (an ally), but he doesn't when they're separated, so he doesn't have that power here.

He has programming, he is a machine. The functions of the monado are simply made easier by the presence of said machine. You're only digging your own biased hole here obviously, so don't expect another reply.

 

[Crystanium]

Not by flapping his wings or anything

His wings and feathers are still waving as if they were in the air. Also, the creature busting through the Lunar Sanctum causes the sound of rock breaking.

Except, you know, saying that he can fly at supersonic speeds.

I don't see any reason that'd need to be mentioned if it's normal for Pit in the first place. The fact is, whether or not a Mach cone can be produced in space doesn't change that the developers intended this by creating the Mach cone in the first place.

That's what it says on the wiki, and I've also heard it elsewhere. It's the reason she uses the Powers as her special moves in Smash Brothers.

Game script, please?

Also, I corrected myself. I didn't use g = 2h/t^2 to find out the gravity Nightmare increased. It's actually 55.38 m/s^2, or 5.65 g.

 

[Munomario777]

There is usually a startup quote for an attack in earthbound, but since he has stopped time there is none due to the attack being instantaneous in relation to the game's hud.

If everything is frozen from the game's perspective (or whatever you want to call it), then there shouldn't be time for us to read the text boxes in the first place.

He has programming, he is a machine.

With artificial intelligence, making him an ally.

The functions of the monado are simply made easier by the presence of said machine.

This function hasn't been demonstrated without the presence of said machine.

You're only digging your own biased hole here obviously, so don't expect another reply.

M'kay.

His wings and feathers are still waving as if they were in the air.

Likely due to an animation quirk.

Also, the creature busting through the Lunar Sanctum causes the sound of rock breaking.

A silent cutscene wouldn't be very entertaining, would it?

I don't see any reason that'd need to be mentioned if it's normal for Pit in the first place.

I'm saying, if the developers wanted to get across that Pit is capable of flying at supersonic speeds, there's much more direct ways of saying so.

The fact is, whether or not a Mach cone can be produced in space doesn't change that the developers intended this by creating the Mach cone in the first place.

I doubt that they'd get the point across with such a subtle, obscure detail. It relies on science, yet defies science; it doesn't make sense.

Game script, please?

Palutena: I'm sorry! I can't carry you any farther! I have to cut off the power of flight!

 

[Crystanium]

He has programming, he is a machine. The functions of the monado are simply made easier by the presence of said machine. You're only digging your own biased hole here obviously, so don't expect another reply.

Because Alvis is completely self-aware and conscious, any assistance from him would mean he's outside help. Those two things are requirements in order to be outside help. Munomario777 isn't being biased. That's just how Alvis is. The moment Shulk (or anyone) gets outside help, everyone else is granted the same thing. I'm not sure about you, but the entire Galactic Federation Army against a select few character isn't going to look pretty, especially with something like the B.S.L., which blew up a planet.

New blog post.

 

[Crystanium]

Likely due to an animation quirk.

Or ignorance of space.

A silent cutscene wouldn't be very entertaining, would it?

It's not entertaining either way.

I'm saying, if the developers wanted to get across that Pit is capable of flying at supersonic speeds, there's much more direct ways of saying so.

There's already the other cut-scene with Pit fighting Dark Pit in the air and both generate a shock wave.

I doubt that they'd get the point across with such a subtle, obscure detail. It relies on science, yet defies science; it doesn't make sense.

Sakurai directed Kid Icarus: Uprising. It's no surprise to blend science with fantasy.

Palutena: I'm sorry! I can't carry you any farther! I have to cut off the power of flight!

That's the power of flight, not other powers. Pit collects these other powers from treasure chests. He initially doesn't have them.

 

[Munomario777]

Or ignorance of space.

Which means that they could also be ignoring the science behind mach cones.

It's not entertaining either way.

It would be worse without the audio. The same applies to the rest of the stage.

There's already the other cut-scene with Pit fighting Dark Pit in the air and both generate a shock wave.

Do you have a video of this?

Sakurai directed Kid Icarus: Uprising. It's no surprise to blend science with fantasy.

If there's fantasy involved, there's no way to know what's science and what's fantasy.

That's the power of flight, not other powers. Pit collects these other powers from treasure chests. He initially doesn't have them.

Palutena
The goddess of light and ruler of Skyworld. Palutena guides Pit through most of his journey, using her powers to help him protect the humans of the surface world from her archnemisis, Medusa, goddess of the Underworld. - Palutena's idol description

It's also referred to in Palutena's reveal trailer for Smash Brothers, where she says, "Perhaps you'd like to see some of the Powers I needed to use to protect you." and then goes through some of the Powers from Uprising. Both Uprising and Smash were directed by Sakurai, and he designed Palutena's moveset (presumably). I haven't played Uprising (and don't wish to comb through hours of let's plays looking for one line of dialogue), so it's a bit difficult to find applicable quotes, since not all of them are documented online.

 

[Crystanium]

Which means that they could also be ignoring the science behind mach cones.

We cannot use their ignorance against them if they are intending to present something. For the longest time I thought sound could be heard in space.

It would be worse without the audio. The same applies to the rest of the stage.

"Worse" is subjective.

Do you have a video of this?

I have an image.

If there's fantasy involved, there's no way to know what's science and what's fantasy.

Why?

Palutena
The goddess of light and ruler of Skyworld. Palutena guides Pit through most of his journey, using her powers to help him protect the humans of the surface world from her archnemisis, Medusa, goddess of the Underworld. - Palutena's idol description

It's also referred to in Palutena's reveal trailer for Smash Brothers, where she says, "Perhaps you'd like to see some of the Powers I needed to use to protect you." and then goes through some of the Powers from Uprising. Both Uprising and Smash were directed by Sakurai, and he designed Palutena's moveset (presumably). I haven't played Uprising (and don't wish to comb through hours of let's plays looking for one line of dialogue), so it's a bit difficult to find applicable quotes, since not all of them are documented online.

If Pit relied on Palutena to use the powers he collects throughout the game, then he wouldn't be able to use them when Viridi is in control. After all, they're Palutena's powers, not Viridi's powers, that she used to help Pit protect the humans. Viridi says, "Anyway, you can equip weapons and powers here, just like always. Got it?" This is before Pit said, "Wow! Everything I need is still here! I guess I didn't give you enough credit. You're kind of awesome, Viridi."

Viridi says this when you're in the Arms Altar to switch out weapons and powers. Again, Palutena never grants Pit these powers. He finds them and uses them in treasure chests. They probably were made by Palutena, but Pit doesn't need her to use them. He only needs the power of flight from Palutena. Whatever inconsistency there is, I leave it to translation issues. After all, I doubt "swagger" was ever used in the Japanese version. It's a word used in the U.S.

 

[Munomario777]

We cannot use their ignorance against them if they are intending to present something. For the longest time I thought sound could be heard in space.

If they don't know that Mach cones can't be formed in space, I somewhat doubt that they would know that they're only produced by supersonic objects, let alone what angle they're usually at in relation to speed.

"Worse" is subjective.

Not necessarily.

I have an image.

I'm not quite sure what exactly to make of this. It seems more like magic/energy than an actual shockwave.

Why?

Because if one attribute of something (the Mach cone, in this case) defies science, then other attributes of the object are more likely to also defy science.

If Pit relied on Palutena to use the powers he collects throughout the game, then he wouldn't be able to use them when Viridi is in control. After all, they're Palutena's powers, not Viridi's powers, that she used to help Pit protect the humans.

Viridi can grant Pit the power of flight just like Palutena can. I don't see why the other powers would be any different.

Viridi says, "Anyway, you can equip weapons and powers here, just like always. Got it?" This is before Pit said, "Wow! Everything I need is still here! I guess I didn't give you enough credit. You're kind of awesome, Viridi."

Viridi says this when you're in the Arms Altar to switch out weapons and powers.

And? If anything, I'd imagine Pit here would be referring to Viridi granting him these powers with his compliments.

Again, Palutena never grants Pit these powers. He finds them and uses them in treasure chests. They probably were made by Palutena, but Pit doesn't need her to use them. He only needs the power of flight from Palutena.

Here's the thing. We don't actually see the powers in any physical form, do we? I've only seen them represented as icons. If Pit was actually finding them in treasure chests and using them himself, I'd imagine that they would have some sort of physical form to them, but instead, they're just icons on the touch screen. Here's a couple of other little tidbits I found that may support this side:

• Powers are only usable during land battles. They can't be used during flight segments, likely due to the fact that Palutena/Viridi is already granting Pit the power of flight, and can't perform both at once.
• When selecting your powers, you can ask Palutena to decide your loadout for you, adding another connection between her and the powers.
• Pit doesn't seem to move when using a power, suggesting that they're called for via telepathy or something of the sort. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Also, you don't seem to have addressed the quote from the Smash trailer that I mentioned.

Whatever inconsistency there is, I leave it to translation issues. After all, I doubt "swagger" was ever used in the Japanese version. It's a word used in the U.S.

Specific words are different from a whole explanation of a major gameplay mechanic.

 

[Crystanium]

If they don't know that Mach cones can't be formed in space, I somewhat doubt that they would know that they're only produced by supersonic objects, let alone what angle they're usually at in relation to speed.

Whether or not they know is irrelevant. It's there. I'm fine with it. After all, even Meta Ridley flaps his wings in space, and yet, Samus can run "supersonic speed".

Not necessarily.

In this instance it is.

I'm not quite sure what exactly to make of this. It seems more like magic/energy than an actual shockwave.

I don't see why it'd be mutually exclusive.

Because if one attribute of something (the Mach cone, in this case) defies science, then other attributes of the object are more likely to also defy science.

I don't see why it'd be mutually exclusive.

Viridi can grant Pit the power of flight just like Palutena can. I don't see why the other powers would be any different.

Because they're moved to the Arms Altar in Viridi's location, hence, "Wow! Everything I need is still here!"

And? If anything, I'd imagine Pit here would be referring to Viridi granting him these powers with his compliments.

But that's not what he said.

Here's the thing. We don't actually see the powers in any physical form, do we? I've only seen them represented as icons. If Pit was actually finding them in treasure chests and using them himself, I'd imagine that they would have some sort of physical form to them, but instead, they're just icons on the touch screen.

That doesn't prove anything.

Powers are only usable during land battles. They can't be used during flight segments, likely due to the fact that Palutena/Viridi is already granting Pit the power of flight, and can't perform both at once.

Assumption. Besides, it's been a while since I've played KI:U, but I recall being able to use Crisis Recovery during flight.

When selecting your powers, you can ask Palutena to decide your loadout for you, adding another connection between her and the powers.

That doesn't prove anything.

Pit doesn't seem to move when using a power, suggesting that they're called for via telepathy or something of the sort. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I fail to see the connection between lack of motion and telepathy. Pit does just fine fighting during flight while communicating with Palutena and Viridi. Kind of hard to attack if you can't move your arms.

Also, you don't seem to have addressed the quote from the Smash trailer that I mentioned.

I did. Pit collects powers from treasure chests. They don't rely on Palutena.

Specific words are different from a whole explanation of a major gameplay mechanic.

At least here, game mechanics are acceptable, since Pit breaks the fourth wall all the time.

 

[Munomario777]

Whether or not they know is irrelevant. It's there. I'm fine with it. After all, even Meta Ridley flaps his wings in space, and yet, Samus can run "supersonic speed".

If we're discussing what the developers are trying to convey, wouldn't their knowledge in the field be relevant?

I don't see why it'd be mutually exclusive.

There could be an actual shockwave there, but what we do see can be explained by magic/energy.

I don't see why it'd be mutually exclusive.

Hm?

Anyway, this isn't very relevant, as Palutena is the one powering the flight, so Pit can't use it here.

Because they're moved to the Arms Altar in Viridi's location, hence, "Wow! Everything I need is still here!"

Everything Pit needs are the weapons, and the goddess to supply the powers. Those are both accounted for.

But that's not what he said.

It seems implied.

That doesn't prove anything.

Not by itself, of course; it's supporting evidence.

Assumption.

I'd call it more of an explanation, myself.

Besides, it's been a while since I've played KI:U, but I recall being able to use Crisis Recovery during flight.

I can't find anything referring to that on any of the wikis.

That doesn't prove anything.

Again, supporting evidence.

I fail to see the connection between lack of motion and telepathy. Pit does just fine fighting during flight while communicating with Palutena and Viridi. Kind of hard to attack if you can't move your arms.

That's not my point. Pit fights and moves his arms and all when communicating with the goddesses, but that movement isn't related to the telepathy; he's fighting instead. He doesn't have to move his arms or anything in order to communicate with them, which is advantageous since he's busy fighting. The same thing applies for the powers.

I did. Pit collects powers from treasure chests. They don't rely on Palutena.

Pit collects the powers and brings them back to Palutena (where he goes at the end of each stage), and "equips" the power for Palutena to grant him during the battle.

You haven't addressed Palutena outright saying that she used those Powers, by the way. Or at least, disproved it.

At least here, game mechanics are acceptable, since Pit breaks the fourth wall all the time.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Crystanium]

If we're discussing what the developers are trying to convey, wouldn't their knowledge in the field be relevant?

Not in all things.

There could be an actual shockwave there, but what we do see can be explained by magic/energy.

I'd agree. For example, in Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, Gabriel Belmont acquires these boots used by Cornell, which allows him to run very fast. He's able to run on water. So running very fast to the point Gabriel can run on water comes from magic. The same could be said for Pit. He uses the power of flight, which comes from goddesses. Besides, if Pit relies on oxygen (since drowning deprives one from oxygen), and if Pit is flying in space (which lacks oxygen), then the only explanation would be that there must be something that allows Pit to breathe. For all we know, Pit has an air bubble around him, which would allow a Mach cone to be formed.

Hm?

Anyway, this isn't very relevant, as Palutena is the one powering the flight, so Pit can't use it here

I'd argue that the Wings of Pegasus still allows Pit to travel these speeds. After all, it was Pegasus, whose hooves caused thunder during storms. Thunder is a shock wave generated by lightning. Since Pit breaks the fourth wall, it's not unreasonable.

Everything Pit needs are the weapons, and the goddess to supply the powers. Those are both accounted for.

Sorry, but unless Palutena or Viridi are being the ones who play an active role in Pit's use of these powers, I'm going to treat these powers the same way I treat these weapons. Both are acquired by Pit. They're Pit's. The only explanation is that Palutena created them, but then I'd be wrong on that, too, since it's Dyntos (Lord God?) who forges all the weapons, not Palutena.

It seems implied.

Seems. Implied. Not good enough if you're trying to prove something.

Not by itself, of course; it's supporting evidence.

No it's not.

I'd call it more of an explanation, myself.[/quote]

It's still an assumption.

I can't find anything referring to that on any of the wikis.

Personal experience > wikia. I could be wrong, but it's what I recall.

Again, supporting evidence.

It can't support if it's not proving anything.

That's not my point. Pit fights and moves his arms and all when communicating with the goddesses, but that movement isn't related to the telepathy; he's fighting instead. He doesn't have to move his arms or anything in order to communicate with them, which is advantageous since he's busy fighting. The same thing applies for the powers.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

Pit collects the powers and brings them back to Palutena (where he goes at the end of each stage), and "equips" the power for Palutena to grant him during the battle.

Nope. Palutena will only help Pit if the player doesn't know what else to do with these powers.

You haven't addressed Palutena outright saying that she used those Powers, by the way. Or at least, disproved it.

I have, actually. Pit collects these powers. They're not granted to him like the Triforce is granted to the Hylians and Gerudo. He obtains them on his own and uses them. Palutena doesn't bestow them on him. Inconsistency.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm getting a bit tired of this discussion, @Dryn. I can see your points with the whole "mach cone" deal, but I disagree as far as powers go, and I don't see this going anywhere anytime soon. Agree to disagree?

 

[Crystanium]

I'm getting a bit tired of this discussion, @Dryn. I can see your points with the whole "mach cone" deal, but I disagree as far as powers go, and I don't see this going anywhere anytime soon. Agree to disagree?

That's fine.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Then it's not comparable to real life black holes.

It's called a "veritable" black hole, meaning that it is.

When is this stated/shown?

Hypernova is described as a "veritable" black hole. The black hole created by the Schwarz is just described as a black hole. Meaning, Hypernova is more literal.

Hypernova Kirby doesn't turn things into stars when he swallows them.

You can't use a wind-up flashlight without first cranking the handle; it needs energy, which is charged by spinning the handle. The same principle applies here.

Baton isn't a flashlight.

If it's from Kirby's attack, then why does it appear about half a second after he actually hits Marx?

For dramatic effect.

I can throw a snowball up in the air without damaging it. (Well, I could if we actually got snow here, but you get my point.)

Kirby is launched up by the energy striking his body. Energy doesn't strike the snowball.

So why is it so bad to approach the same argument with two counter arguments?

Because you split up the argument, when it was intended to stay as one.

If it's not a shield, I'd imagine it would be less protective.

He protects himself from attacks that a shield can block.

Now that I think about it, does wind actually affect lightning bolts?

Kirby's wind has affected lightning in the game.

How powerful are these?

There isn't a measurement.

I only see one type of tornado here.

Then watch the video again.

What makes you say that?

They haven't been proven.

When has Marx demonstrated downwards flight with enough force to resist a launch of that power?

He's demonstrated FTL acceleration while flying, which would let give him a lot of force.

Because he's human, and humans lie.

To themselves? For no reason?

This is yet to be proven.

Tanking an explosion the size of a planet = planetary durability.

"A few" is a rather vague term really.

True.

As in, the rule for Trick Room isn't in effect if Mewtwo is facing, say, Mario here.

Why not?

Then how does the slower Pokemon suddenly attack before the faster Pokemon?

In the game, it talks about the dimensions being twisted, so that has something to do with it.

I see nothing about what I asked for, which was proof that "Protect was specifically designed to block moves like that, and that said moves can only be blocked by those sort of things."

Look again.

Then what specific attribute does allow moves to block this attack?

A specially enhanced blocking technique. Things like King's Shield or Mat Block can block, but they don't block status moves (which Protect does). This makes Protect specially enhanced.

What, it's illegal to use logic now?

It's been illegalized for a good reason, so they work on Super Sonic. End of story.

We're comparing angles from the same attack, not different attacks.

I don't have video of that.

Then I'm afraid that you don't have sufficient proof.

Lack of a video of something doesn't make it false.

Prove that portals prevent brains from working.

The nerves and.or brain would be dislocated.

Kirby has eyes, sentience, a mouth, taste buds, favorite foods, a personality, etc., just like us humans.

He doesn't have ears, but he can still hear. He doesn't have fingers, but he can still hold things. Kirby can still perform basic functions without using the body part needed for it.

The analogy is still intact. Guns have varying strengths, and attacks have varying strengths. (At least, I think that's what it was. It was a while back...)

I don't see how this disproves something.

Impact: the action of one object coming forcibly into contact with another.

Point?

A) Which doesn't surround all angles.
B) Which is still an amount of time that should be considered.

A) Point?
B) It won't really affect anything.

A) No, there seems to be hitstun.
B) I'm pretty sure you do.

A) Which is a game mechanic.
B) Do you have a video?

He can manipulate time with Chaos Control as well as Shadow can. Shadow can manipulate time with Silver, and Sonic can manipulate time with Silver.

Only proving that Sonic needs Shadow or Silver to do anything time-based.

Fun doesn't seem to "slip my mind".

What about the "hindering abilities"?

Volcanos are mountains, but with lava.

If I see a volcano, I don't point at it and say, "Hey look! A mountain!"

Then the fists' roles are reversed.

The same thing happens.

Both involve Jet Kirby using his engines to fly.

That happens during the Mach 5 attacks.

Ah, my bad. "Every time A happens, B happens" isn't solid proof when not every possibility is shown.

If apples can cause him damage in his health bar, why wouldn't a crash at high speed do that?

How does that mean that he's in outer space?

Telescopes look at space.

Isn't Kirby even slower than normal while flying?

Not by much.

Fair point. A Starman might be able to help him close in, but Kirby has much more speed and all.

True.

Except he's a coin.

Except he has plenty of ways to counter the fireball, so he isn't.

If Kirby tries to destroy the fireball with a physical attack, he'll simply be turned into gold, as he's touching the fireball.

Who said he'd be using a physical attack? The attack I mentioned doesn't have him touching the fireball, and it's not like he'd even be Stone Kirby anyways.

And a gold shockwave would be created.

And he's hit by the shockwave.

He can heal.

How much?

The mass of Earth.

If he jumps, the shockwave gets him.

He'd start flying, and then the shockwave wouldn't get him.

If he tries to inhale it, its size will result in his "lips" getting touched.

He can inhale things bigger than him (like a Uja), and it doesn't touch his lips.

Prove it.

They all activate on touch.

I've played Super Mario 64 (the DS version anyways), and I don't remember that at all.

Do you still have the game? If so, can you test that.

With which attack?

Most of the ones he has.

Prove that they equal the amount of force that Mario can resist.

That's not how it works. Any attack does that.

I don't see how stopping the kick would help that.

It stops Mario from knocking Kirby away.

Destroying someone who can destroy a planet =/= destroying a planet.

It kind of does.

And they're not one item.

Mega Stone.

Right, they have fire usage.

Point?

So, prove its mass and its velocity.

The velocity isn't relevant. The mass is very high, seeing as it's a ball of energy the size of the planet.

How does running forwards and a lightning bolt hitting behind you mean that you can react to objects of that speed?

That's not what happened?

No, he can become tiny, or freeze time.

He's already tiny. Freezing time can be countered with the Invisibility Stone.

And then Sonic attacks where he isn't inhaling.

Too late; he already gets sucked in.

Because inhaling is how Kirby sucks things in.

Wait a minute. I meant to say: How could Sonic do that if he's getting sucked in?

I live in America, but a statement from me doesn't reflect the position of America as a whole.

Even then, it's still a statement in the game.

Why would needing to bring the knife back to Hocotate prohibit using said knife?

It belongs on Hocotate, not in Olimar's hands.

And the coins, platforms, and brick blocks are not.

The vast majority of things in the series follow the rules of gravity.

The entire game is based on breaking the laws of gravity.

In celestial objects.

Prove it.

Are you even being serious right now? You keep contradicting yourself.

A battery can power two things at once; a car battery powers the radio, ignition, headlights, windshield wipers, et cetera all at once.

I'm talking about a non-car battery.

You can type two things at once with a keyboard, if you get creative; have some sort of software to have half of the keyboard type into one file, and the other half into another file.

Does Rosalina have some sort of software for her wand?

A two-sided pen could accomplish the first task.

A) Actually, it couldn't. One end of the pen would move the same way as the other, and you'd draw the same picture twice.
B) The wand isn't two-sided.

She has galaxies that place black holes, which she could force opponents into.

That isn't very reliable. She doesn't know where the black holes will be, and she might even get sucked in one herself.

Has it been shown to bend things?

There's tons of them in the Galaxy games.

Which Rosalina would have to summon, making her vulnerable.

A) It's the other way around, really.
B) How accurately can he attack things with this?

A) Black holes don't go where the Lumas is.
B) He hits them right on.

It has a massive AOE, depending on the black hole of course. If Kirby is inside of the black hole, his range won't be enough.

It all depends on the black hole then, or if there's even a black hole where Kirby and Rosalina are.

The ground pound has a respectable amount of force; as aforementioned, it can crush bricks and stone.

The stone is cracked.

1. Having a black hole period seems rather helpful; you can force opponents into it.
2. Which aren't like normal black holes, and don't show similarities with those found in Galaxy either.
3. Prove that they affect a large enough area.
4. By using what?
5. How is Kirby holding Rosalina, and why can't she use her wand? Rosalina and all of the Lumas have to be killed, as they're all part of the character.
6. By transforming.
7. Will Kirby not get sucked in as well?

1. The black holes might not even be near them.
2. They do share similarities with Galaxy black holes.
3. They hit all Lumas that are actually nearby.
4. His hands.
5. With his hands, and her wand will get sucked in as well, plus it won't help.
6. The character isn't "Rosalina and all of the Lumas". It's "Rosalina & Luma".
7. That doesn't answer the question.
8. After everyone else. He's alive while Rosalina & Luma are dead, so he wins.

So a black hole can be created anywhere on the battlefield.

You're saying a bunch of things that don't prove this.

Why is that?

He never moved anything without striking it.

Except he's kinda frozen in time.

Except he's kinda frozen in time.

Except he's kinda frozen in time.

Temporarily.

Because when Sonic initially turned into the werehog, Robotnik was using the Chaos Emeralds' energy to crack open the planet and release Dark Gaia. This drained their energy, and Sonic had to restore it at the Gaia temples.

Do you have a video?

The invincibility power-up, and in Sonic Generations, it can stop attacks from monsters created by a deity (the Iblis monsters in Crisis City).

Marth waits it out.

A) He fell towards the earth, which was clearly split apart. He was in space; he had a good view.
B) Except, you know, the giant god of destruction and darkness emerging from the planet.

A) He was on the Earth.
B) That he didn't see.

Prove that the darksphere > the Voxai overmind.

Prove that the darksphere itself does.

The Darksphere is made from Naga.

They did, actually, assuming that the gods created Sonic's world. The Chaos Emeralds are part of the world.

How do you know they created Sonic's world?

In what sense of the word?

Corrupt: change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.

And Kirby's mirror ability isn't a mirror (as in, not a reflective pane of glass).

Which goes against your statement.

And then it resumes being powerful once it breaks through and has a hole to travel through.

Kirby creates another guard that doesn't have a hole in it.

If items aren't negated, then why would Mario's be?

He doesn't attack with the item.

When has Ness destroyed a universe?

He's on par with Giygas, who destroys universes.

Power levels don't determine who wins; wits, speed, etc also play into this.

Being fast and witty don't stop a universal character from destroying you with an attack.

Bowser is much more powerful than Mario, no doubt about that, but he lacks wits and puts a "kill Bowser" switch in his castles, so Mario wins.

How is Bowser more powerful than Mario?

Sonic's can deliver 45212697.67 pounds of force.

Ness can deliver more.

How does that incredibly vague statement equal omnipresence? From that statement, it seems that they're not overlapping now, or they're separate, yet no omnipresence seems to occur.

It means he's all throughout the universe (equalling omnipresence).

When does Giygas destroy a universe, and does he use the same attacks he used there on Ness?

He nearly destroyed the entire universe, and presumably.

Sonic can dodge "beams" as well.

How fast are they?

It depends on what's being counted as "miscellaneous".

Ask Dryn.

What amount of force has Ness applied via TK?

He moved a baby bottle, but that was when he was a baby. He grew much older, plus his psychic powers have been enhanced vastly, so logic says he can apply much more force.

When has it resisted this amount of force?

Does the Homing Attack even have that much force?

When does he demonstrate this speed?

See above.

He's omnipresent.

How much force has Ness resisted with his TK?

See above.

It seems that he was dodging the time freezing itself, implying that it's some sort of concentrated beam or something. Chaos Control isn't.

If he was dodging the time freezing, he would have been able to take his turn. It says clearly that Ness (it was actually Jeff, but Ness can do the same thing) was frozen in time.

How strong?

Universal.

Sonic resists mental influences, such as crying.

Of what power?

Strangeness can be removed by walking for a bit, which Sonic will certainly be doing here (or rather, running).

How would walking or running around remove strangeness?

Paralysis won't hamper Sonic much, as the Chaos Emeralds are controlled by thought.

What can he do to Ness using the emeralds?

Sonic can resist mind control, so he can resist hypnosis.

Fair enough.

Then where is your proof?

http://www.fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Dolhr
In the second paragraph.

When? Mind reposting it?

Tsar Bomba can destroy a city, and it has a petajoule of force. The sun's water can all be heated at once with a yottajoule of force.

A) Turning on the monitor but not the computer's tower is turning on part of the computer.
B) You haven't provided lore that states that changing into those clothes indicates infinite power, so it means nothing.

A) It's not.
B) I wasn't even talking about clothes.

By what means?

Falchion or Darksphere.

A lot of things are destroying attacks and do a lot of damage, such as guns. They destroy things (as in, killing people), and they do a lot of damage to people, but they don't destroy planets.

Point?

Then Sonic attacks again. It has a reduced chance of activating each use.

Eventually, time becomes unfrozen and Mewtwo can do things again.

And the Ring count is compared to HP/PP.

Nope.

Are tails not part of animals?

Point?

It's an action, which my statement would also apply to.

Prove it.

Then why can't the Pokemon in question?

What?

Then these weaker attacks and Arceus's stats don't reflect universal power.

Shulk wouldn't be using the weaker attacks here.

You said that Mewtwo is on a similar level to Arceus (which you say is a universal level, whatever that means) because of stats. Then I pointed out that it would OHKO the target if it could destroy the universe, and you responded that this is not the case because the target is on a similar, universal level.

I didn't say they were similar, I just said they were on a universal level.

Like you said, Kirby is powerful for his size. Why can't the bosses be the same way?

That's not a counterargument.

Chaos, or both if he's Hyper Sonic.

Since when do the Chaos Emeralds have holy power?

The fact that it's more consistent.

Consistent: unchanging in achievement or effect over a period of time.

I don't see anything about priority.

When?

In the games.

Because it's an outlier.

What's wrong with being an outlier?

I'm treating Wario the same as other characters.

So you're trying to nerf other characters?

Armies are irrelevant to choosing reliable sources.

Point?

Wario cannot be both vulnerable and invulnerable at the same time; it's a contradiction. In the case of a contradiction, we use the most reliable source, or the most common answer.

The armies contradict themselves. The weak armies are more common. Are we going to use weak armies?

The discussion at hand is about sources.

You've brought up outliers in the discussion.

When does the Mega Buster destroy a mountain?

It doesn't destroy mountains, but it can destroy steel and boulders.

The moon wasn't destroyed, however.

Doesn't matter. Bowser's going to take a lot of pain once he lands.

When is this stated?

It doesn't have to be stated. We see it.

When?

In the game.

Which attack of Zanza's?

Not sure which one.

Prove that they're exactly the same.

Do the enemies throughout Xenoblade Chronicles?

No.

This has yet to be proven, so I'll leave it at that.

The Monado is universal easily.

It can resist Ganon's attacks, if I'm not mistaken.

Shulk's attacks > Ganon's attacks.

Which physical attacks?

Hitting them with body parts and such.

When do Shulk's attacks destroy a universe?

Zanza's Monado destroyed one. Shulk's Monado is stronger.

Mega Man can't attack while time is frozen, but he can work around this by positioning himself for an attack, switching weapons quickly, and firing.

I doubt it would do much to a universal god.

When do they?

See above.

What about it?

It's good with flying enemies.

I could have a sword that can slay people, but that doesn't guarantee that I'll defeat any human I battle.

It does if the sword's stronger than the humans you battle.

I haven't seen Shulk one-shot an opponent yet.

The opponent he battled has universal stats.

When does the universe get destroyed by Shulk's attack, then?

See above.

I see no proof above.

If a universe destroyer couldn't destroy Shulk, then how could Samus?

Weakened by what amount?

All the way to 1 damage.

It's blocked attacks from Ganondorf, who is a god-like being.

Shulk is a stronger god.

Because Alvis is completely self-aware and conscious, any assistance from him would mean he's outside help. Those two things are requirements in order to be outside help. Munomario777 isn't being biased. That's just how Alvis is. The moment Shulk (or anyone) gets outside help, everyone else is granted the same thing. I'm not sure about you, but the entire Galactic Federation Army against a select few character isn't going to look pretty, especially with something like the B.S.L., which blew up a planet.

It's rather clear Shulk can do it without Alvis. He's a universal god. Zanza's Monados also did something like that, and Shulk's Monado is stronger.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Kirby Dragons

I'm honestly sick of debating all of these things. I don't really enjoy replying to these posts, frankly. This isn't really going anywhere, so I'd like to propose that we just agree to disagree until one of these arguments is actually relevant (say, brought up in a matchup). If not, then I'll simply stop replying. It's just not fun anymore.

 

[Crystanium]

It's called a "veritable" black hole, meaning that it is.

Ad nauseam.

It's rather clear Shulk can do it without Alvis. He's a universal god. Zanza's Monados also did something like that, and Shulk's Monado is stronger.

No one cares except Shulkians. Ether doesn't exist in this battlefield.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Sorry for being away this past week. I was busy with cleaning up clutter and salvaging broken PCs.

Unless you move at such high speeds that it's practically impossible for the opponent to land a counter attack.

Does Shulk not have a heat signature?

IIRC, the combatants start a bit further away than that.

He performs it in... I think Twilight Princess someone said?

Oh really?

It’s not a counter attack. Do you see them launching a counter attack?

Shulk does not have an engine.

I have it being noted as 50 feet.

Ocarina of Time is the one with the collapsing tower.

Your only proving my point with that video. That video is from Mega Man 7 which means Mega Man showed Dr. Wiley mercy six times before.

Which would be accomplished by killing them.

What is? (It would be helpful if you put your responses inside the quotes by ending them, posting your reply, and then continuing them, to avoid confusion and all.)

Prove that it can withstand that amount of force.

Prove the attack's force.

What has it withstood?

Samus can’t kill Ganondorf but she still wins by sealing him away with Darkburst.

Think about how much extra work that is. It looks like it had something to do with the Pokemon movies.

If Monado Shield can block the Mechonis Sword than it will have no problem blocking any applicable ramming attacks from Sonic.

How am I suppose to put a number on that!? Stop demanding proofs on unquantifiable feats!

The Monado’s physical form is an illusion, so it can’t be broken.

https://youtu.be/q60RJhQc1Ng?t=3m32s

Ah. So prove that the Monado's attacks exceed those of deities in power, and specify how much so.

Defense is irrelevant to offense.

I fail to see how Link is stronger than Ganon.

Which attacks?

When?

The Monado overcomes deities, Sonic isn’t a deity, so it will overcome Sonic’s defenses.

High enough Defense renders Offense useless, so it is very relevant.

Link can overcome Ganondorf in their sword locks during their final battle in Twilight Princess.

All the physical, and beam attacks directed at him during cutscenes.

When you said Mega Mario and co. will step on Shulk and others.

https://youtu.be/q60RJhQc1Ng?t=3m32s

Also, size doesn't directly to correlate to durability.

He's "restrained" by being too slow to dodge the attack.

I could be told to run faster than a car to avoid it, but I won't be physically able to.

Does it not run out?

Ah. How much force does this output?

Yes it does. The bigger you are the thicker your skin and bones will be keeping your vitals further away from danger. Being taller also means your enemies won’t be able to hit certain parts of your body at all.

That is still not being restrained.

You don’t run away from a car, you jump out of the way at the last second.

It refills instantly whenever he receives a vision. The Talent gauge restraint doesn’t seem to show up in cutscenes either.

Why do you think that this is something that I can measure?

https://youtu.be/q60RJhQc1Ng?t=3m32s

Except, this is before the new universe was created, no?

Well, it's just that - a guess. I'd like proof.

I'm all for a fully functioning Monado, giving it the ability to use arts, manipulate ether, etc. However, there is no ether here for it to manipulate, and no Alvis to help Shulk reshape the universe.

Since they became magical.

And how does that mean that he shares the specific ability to disable seven specific gems?

Universe two (game), not Universe three (ending).

You can’t get proof for shulk’s internal thoughts.

The Monado can manipulate atoms just fine.

Your extrapolating here. The Master Sword is magical but it does not possess strength.

The Monado is capable of realty warping, the Chaos Emeralds are not.

https://youtu.be/q60RJhQc1Ng?t=3m32s

Prove that Monado III = omnipotence.

Prove the swing's force.

Priority essentially means the speed of an attack, from what I can gather.

I'm giving Sonic the win because Sonic is simply too fast for Trick Room to activate (and Trick Room is too slow to activate against many moves), and even if it did, there's no evidence that it would work well against Sonic.

lolwut

Shulk started a new universe, that is omnipotence on a universal scale.

NO! I’m sick and tired of your lazy excuses!How about you give us proof of Sonic’s speed without using vague measurements and offhand mentions in the manual.

Priority does not exist in Sonic games so don’t bother using it in relation to Pokemon.

Trick Room has plenty of time to activate thanks to Sonic’s cockiness (which is responsible for starting the plot in multiple games).

Sonic has no way to bypass Metal Face’s armor so he loses. That quote I used was one of Metal Face’s lines in Xenoblade and I thought it would make a good finishing taunt for that matchup. All the other quotes in that matchup block have similar reasoning.

A-tier

Counter and miracle combined can kill Sanic.

Counter and miracle combined can kill Sanic.

Lucina and female Robin can’t get Counter because her father can’t pass down it down and females can’t learn it themselves due to warriors being male exclusive.

Any reason I shouldn't?

In a world pervaded with ether.

Probably not. I actually erred in my last calculation. I didn't consider all four mandibles. So it'd be much higher. Again, this is under the assumption that these mandibles have the same density as steel, which I have no reason to think is the case, unless it was a Mechon.

This wouldn't be outside of what Samus normally deals with. According to the Metroid: Zero Mission manual, p. 7, "If the Space Pirates were able to breed the Metroids and use the creatures as biological weapons, the destruction of all galactic civilization would be near certain." The Metroid II: Return of Samus manual, p. 5, states, "Even one living Metroid could easily wipe out an entire planetary civilization."

I think we should because it's things like this will occur throughout fictional universes. It won't be so much of a question of whether or not lasers or lightning actually travel at the proper speed in game play as it will be a question of whether or not it's an outlier.

Because they are extreme outliers compared to everything else. If you can consistently dodge laser or lightning than you have no business being hit by anything else.

The experiment messed up our own world too.

Wouldn’t it be made of Chitin (or its ether equivalent)?

There is one flaw with your analysis, metroids can’t escape planets or space stations under their own power while these can.

Thanks for agreeing with the outlier rule proposal, now where is @ShadowLBlue?

Since lasers have appeared in almost every video game, sometimes moving very slowly, no.

Huh? Your answer doesn’t match up with your observation.

I've gone over Sonic before, but I'll do it again, because why not.

• Miracle cannot activate against this amount of force unless by means of ungrounded extrapolation, so Counter cannot activate.
• If Miracle could actually activate, Counter would also rely on ungrounded extrapolation.
• If Counter could actually activate, it only hits adjacent opponents; with his speed, Sonic will be at the other end of the arena in under a second.
• If Sonic was in range of Counter, he can survive that force anyway; he crashes into walls all the time at these speeds without a scratch.
• If we ignored that for whatever reason, Super Sonic only loses about ten Rings from a deity attack. This will, at a maximum, drain all of Sonic's Rings (and I somewhat doubt that). The FE character is now left at 1 HP (using Awakening's version), so Miracle will not activate when Sonic once again rams into them at top speed.

You will have to disprove a all five of these points in order for the Fire Emblem character to win.

• Prove that Sonic can ignore Miracle.
• Prove that Sonic can ignore Counter.
• Sonic has to come into contact with his adversaries to damage them, which is clearly within Counter range.
• Walls don’t hit back!
• Isn’t Super Sonic stronger than all these non-deities? The awakening characters have regen via Renewal and Sonic won't be quick to ram into them again after that disastrous first hit.

Are there any character ability sheets or charts that are yet to be made?

I have a rudimentary one here (my opinion on them so it might not be that accurate):

Spoiler: spoilered for size

Mario: Can ground pound and do other Mario moves. Can use melee fire attacks by default and uses a hammer. Equipment renders him immune to fire + ice + lightning + status effects + instant death. Uses Mario power ups and Power Flower (power Balloon). Uses F.L.U.D.D..

Dr. Mario: Mario without power-ups or equipment.

Luigi: Can ground pound and do other Mario moves. Can use melee Lightning attacks by default and uses a hammer. Equipment renders him immune to status effects. Uses Mario power ups and Power Flower (vanish). Uses The Poltergust 3000 which can fire streams of flame, ice beams, and jets of water.

Peach: Equipment renders her immune to fire + ice + lightning + status effects + instant death. Can jump, and can ground pound like the others. Floats with her parasol and slaps her enemies. Her Mario RPG game let her use healing, silencing, sleep inducing, and bomb throwing moves. Uses Mario power ups.

Bowser: Has massive strength and durability. Can spew streams of flame and fireballs. Can roll around in a double shell. Can throw hammers, spiked balls, barrels and ground pound. Can greatly increase his size. The Meowser transformation can whip his tail and create up to 5 copies of himself with the double cherry. Rides the Koopa Clown Car and toss Mechakoopas and steel balls at his enemies. Rides the Bowser Mobile and throws bombs. Equipment renders him immune to fire + ice + lightning + status effects + instant death. ??? (meteors)

Bowser Jr.: Can use the Magic Paintbrush to create warps (requires washing to use for others), regular, electric and fire goop, as well as creating polluted piranha plants. He can spit fireballs like his father. He pilots the Junior Clown Car which has boxing gloves, can fire Torpedo Teds, Bob-ombs, spiked balls and it has ground pound capability. He also has Megahammer which can crush enemies with it‘s two hammer arms and can fire bullet bills and banzai bills. It can be defeated with bullet bills to it‘s weak spots. The Boomsday Machine is a slow moving tracked vehicle with three fireballs swinging around it‘s base, has a potent vacuum that sucks up clouds, and it fires slow moving fireballs. The cockpit at the top is vulnerable to attack but may be electrified at times.

Rosalina and Luma: Rosalina’s shield blocks physical attacks. She can levitate other people and float like a Luma. Can deflect Star Bits with her wand. Uses Mario Power ups. Lumas transform into various objects including Life Mushrooms, Launch stars and Galaxies.

Yoshi: Ingesting an enemy with his long tongue turns an enemy into a throw able egg (6 max). Has stronger jumping attacks than Mario and is also capable of ground pounds as well as flutter jumps. Power ups include wings (temporary), and Power Flower (fire breath).

Wario: Weights 308 pounds but has muscular legs and arms. He is extremely strong and can launch potent ramming attacks like the Corkscrew Conk and potent grapples. Can cause tremors with ground pound and earthquake punch. Power-ups include Bunny, Fire, Garlic (Super Mushroom), Bull Pot, Jet Pot, Dragon Pot, Eagle Statue, Dragon Crystal, King Dragon (requires previous two items together), and Power Flower (Metal). Thief (faster jumping and running), Cosmic (fires lasers that ricochet and has floaty jumps), Arty (creates blocks and warp doors but is immobile), Genius (can see invisible objects and has a punching glove extender), Sparky (lights up rooms and attacks with electricity), Captain (pilots a sub and fires torpedoes), Wicked (unlimited flight) can be reapplied any time. Is resistant to being frozen solid, set on fire and flattened (Bouncy and Flat).

Donkey Kong: A strong and fast 800 pound gorilla. Resistant or immune to hypnosis. The coconut gun can shoot homing ammo (characteristics unknown). Heart boost grants one more heart and banana juice grants 10 more hearts. May throw Orange Grenades (30 max).

Diddy Kong: A weak but nimble monkey. Resistant or immune to hypnosis. The Peanut Popgun can shoot homing ammo (characteristics unknown). Has limited flight with the Rocketbarrel jet pack. Heart boost grants one more heart and banana juice grants 10 more hearts. May throw Orange Grenades (30 max).

Link: Has Triforce of Courage. Can ride Epona and fight with Sword and Bow, also rides a Loftwing, is an accomplished Sumo wrestler, and can beat Ganondorf in a blade lock. Master of Multiple sword techniques from AOL and TP and can transform into a Wolf. Wields the Master Sword, Biggoron’s Sword (2-handed), Megaton Hammer (2-handed), Mirror Shield, bows (100 max)(fire/ice/light/bomb), Crossbow, boomerang, bombs (60 max), Bombchus (50 max), Water Bombs (30 max), Bomblings (20 max), Deku Nuts (40 max)(stun grenades), Scattershot (10 max)(a Slingshot shotgun), Longshot, Double Clawshots, Ball and Chain, Spinner, Lantern (uses oil), the Ocarina of Time (plays magic tunes), Fishing Rod (distracts Ganondorf), Lens of Truth, and 5 Bottles (Blue Potion/Great Fairy‘s Tears). Link can wear the Goron Tunic (renders him immune to extreme heat and gives him significant resistance to lava), Zora Tunic/Zora Armor (can breathe underwater), Magic Armor (drains 12 rupees when hit and 2 per second while worn), Hawkeye (aids sniping with the bow), Hover boots, and Iron Boots. He also has the Golden Gauntlets (which allows him to push or lift stone obelisks). AOL spells include Fairy (turns Link into a fairy), Fire (shoot fireballs from his sword), Jump (doubles jumping height), Life (replenishes health), Reflect (improves shield blocking capability and reflects Wizzrobe attacks), Shield (damage down 50%), and Thunder (hits all enemies on screen). His Wallet can hold 9K Rupees. He also receives Enhanced Defense from a Great Fairy (damage down 50%). Extreme weakness to cannonballs.

Young Link: Has Triforce of Courage. Can ride Epona and fight with Sword and Bow. Master of Counter techniques from WW. Wields the Master Sword and Four Sword(both fire beams at full health), Mirror Shield, Red Mail (damage down 75%), bows (70 max)(fire/ice/light/silver), boomerang, bombs (99 max)(super), Bombchus (99 max)(Oracle series can home in on enemies), Powder Keg (1 max), Deku Nuts (40 max)(stun grenades), Hyper Slingshot (99 for each ammo type max)(includes incendiary, normal, freezing, blowing away, and anti-possession ammo)(fires three seeds in different directions), Magic Hammer, Longshot, Red Candle, Lantern (runs on magic), Magical Rod (Book of Magic causes target to catch fire), Fire Rod (can burn enemies at range), Ice Rod (can freeze enemies at range), Cane of Byrna (protective force field that also injures enemies), Cane of Somaria (creates magic blocks that can explode sending shrapnel in four cardinal directions), Magic Cape (renders him invisible and intangible to certain objects), 6 Bottles (Chateau Romani), bug catching net (can deflect Ganondorf’s balls), the Ocarina of Time (plays magic tunes), The Lens of Truth, and the Shovel. He can transform with the Deku, Goron, Zora, and Fierce Deity Masks. He also has the Red Ring (damage down 75%), Stepladder, Raft, Power Bracelet (improves pushing strength), Titan’s Mitt (allows him to pick up very heavy stones), and Pegasus Boots (allows for high speed dashing after a short charge up time). Magic medallions include Bombos (explosive power across the screen), Ether (freezing winds from the upper atmosphere fill the screen), and Quake (powerful earthquake hit’s the whole screen). Link can burn surrounding enemies with Din’s Fire, Farore’s Wind let him return to previously placed warp points, and Nayru’s Love negates all damage received but won’t stop knockback. Link can use Pegasus seeds to run faster, Razor seeds to double attack, and armor seed to double defense (damage down 50%). His Wallet can hold 1K Rupees. He also receives Enhanced Defense from a Great Fairy (damage down 50%) and Enhanced Magic Capacity (magic use down 50%).

Toon Link: Has Triforce of Courage. Can ride the King of Red Lions across water. Wields the Master Sword, Wind Waker, Skull Hammer, Mirror Shield, bows (99 max)(fire/ice/light (super effective against evil enemies)), boomerang, bombs (99 max), Bombchus (30 max), Hookshot, Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf, and 4 Bottles (one Elixir Soup with 2 helpings and 3 Blue Potions). He also has the Power Bracelet (allows him to lift large stone heads), Magic Armor (drains 12 rupees when hit), and Iron Boots. His wallet can hold 10K rupees.

Zelda: Has the Triforce of Wisdom. Has horse riding experience. Can wield a bow (not particularly well) on foot and horseback and use light arrows. Has also been seen with a rapier.

Sheik: Is the alter ego of Zelda. Can throw Deku Nuts to stun opponent.

Ganondorf: Has the Triforce of Power. Can ride a horse and summon phantom horseman (Human). Has 3 viable forms: Human, Pig, and Beast (tail is vulnerable). Teleports around the room and throws fireballs and firebats (Pig). Can throw and control his Trident telekinetically (pig). His technique of darkness can render him invincible to all attacks if the room is enveloped in darkness (Pig). Can gain invisibility and stun Link by stomping the ground (Pig). Can unleash shockwaves at close range and use one or two swords with great skill (Human). His ranged attacks includes throwing many dark orbs at once and engaging in a game of “Tennis” which certain items like the Master Sword, Biggoron’s Sword, Megaton Hammer, Bug Catching Net, Shovel and Empty Bottles can reflect (Human). He can bash (like Shield Bash) Link and use a spin attack as well (Human). Immune to all attacks except Holy Light and silver based weapons. Can be confused with some item choices like the Fishing Rod.

Samus: Samus has shield protected power armor that boosts her capabilities (2X). She can lift 177 metric tons and has amazing traveling speed and stamina. Immune to temperatures below 800C and above -270.15C. Tanks 131,019.14 N. Immune to acid.
The arm cannon fires energy beams including x-rays, ice, plasma, electrolasers, matter-antimatter with high powered sonic aspect. It can fire assorted missiles as well (250 limit) as well as Super Missiles (60 max). Bombs can destroy sandstone but have low range (10M tops) and the power bombs (60 max) have a yield of at least 200+ metric tons of TNT (screen wide in Super Metroid/30M for just the fireball). Her Darkburst attack fires a weak black hole that only sucks in weak enemies and the Sonic Boom is even worst (hit scan level accuracy). Her wave buster can paralyze targets within 10 meters with electrical damage. She can freeze targets with the ice spreader or ice missiles. She can restore energy with the Crystal Flash technique which consumes 10 Missiles, 10 Super Missiles, and 11 Power Bombs and can only be used at 50 energy or less with the reserve tanks empty and requires the Morph Ball form. The Concentration technique allows Samus to refill her missiles or her energy by one tank if it is low and she can avoid being hit by the enemy. Samus has 20 energy tanks (100 energy for each, must use manually), and 4 reserve tanks (500 energy, used automatically if her energy hits zero). Samus has 4 E-Recovery Tanks which increase the number of energy tanks restored by Concentration by one per Recovery tank and lower the threshold for using Concentration.
Her gunship is equipped with twin power beam turrets and a rear mounted plasma beam cannon. It can also fully restore her shields and ammo. Also has a cloaking device. A different gunship has missile launchers. Her ships have been damaged by space pirates and destroyed by asteroids in the past.

Zero Suit Samus: Samus is more agile in this suit at the cost of substantially less protection. She cannot use any Power Suit upgrades at all. The Paralyzer is very weak and can only stun with a charged shot. Samus has 20 energy tanks (100 energy for each, must use manually).

Pit: wields a variety of weapons including bows (ranged weapon with strong homing capabilities and high shot speed but weak melee and a slow rate of fire), blades (Generalist weapon with balanced stats), claws (melee weapons with extended melee combos and improve speed but with poor shot homing and range), cannons (ranged weapon which fires explosive charged shots with a wide area of effect but slows down the user and has weak melee attacks), staves (ranged weapon with extreme range but weak melee, no homing, and greatly slows down user), arms (generalist weapon with powerful melee and ranged attacks but short ranged projectiles, and slow attack speed), palms (ranged weapons with high fire rate and strong homing capabilities but low attack power and fairly short range), orbitars (ranged weapons with strong homing capabilities and, can fire 2 shots at once but have poor melee capabilities), and clubs (generalist weapon with powerful melee and charged shots, can deflect projectiles and its shots pass through walls but it slows its user down, lacks continuous fire, and has limited combo potential). All weapons can attack in melee and at range. He possesses super human strength and durability. He can fly for as long as 5 minutes with the power of flight and can glide with his wings otherwise. He can be tired out after a while.

Dark Pit: Is a clone of Pit with a slightly different personality.

Palutena: Wields a staff and shield to battle. Possesses the Power of Flight, Power of Caging (traps victim in cage), Power of Maelstrom (makes it rain) and the Power of Cooling (provides great resistance to high temperatures). Her battle abilities include the Palutena Glam Blaster (similar to orbital beam strike but takes time to charge), Levitation (passive ability), can fire as many as 9 balls of light in rapid succession, can blind opponent with light for 3 seconds, can fire as many as 3 large, slow moving homing teal balls of light in rapid succession, can shoot 3 fast moving columns of light, can launch a slow moving Halo across the ground that homes in on and chases her target and can launch 3 projectiles of it’s own before dissipating. Her melee options include knocking back enemies who are too close by surrounding herself with rings of light, and zooming at her target in a column of light. She can summon Centurions or Centurion Knights but only one at a time but with no upper limit. The feats performed in her boss battle were done while in a weakened state thanks to the Chaos Kin draining her for three years.

Has limited omniscience that manifests with her knowing where everything is and what her enemies weaknesses and back story are.

Powers (Pit & Palutena only): Powers come in many flavors. Movement powers include Sky Jump, Rocket Jump (explosion can damage nearby enemies), Jump Glide, Angelic Missile (user slams into enemy at high speed), and Super Speed which can brush the enemy out of the way.
Attack powers include Mega Laser, Explosive Flame, Black Hole (does minor damage but ensnares the enemy), Meteor Shower, Land Mine, Reflect Barrier (returns projectiles to sender), and Heavenly Light (acts like an area spike).
Enhance powers include Autoreticle, Weak-Point Reticule, Quick Charge (shortens charge time of weapons), Homing Boost, Slip Shot (shots pass through solid objects), Invisible Shots, Random Effect (adds random bonus effect to attacks), Poison Attack, Paralyze Attack (slows down victim and stops them from dodging), Petrify Attack (stops the victims movement and doubles their defense but lasts longer than freeze), Shake Attack (cause a loss in accuracy for the victim and cancels the homing power on their shots), Confuse Attack (causes random movement and attacks), Burn Attack (DOT effect), Freeze Attack (freezes victim in place for a period of time), Instant Death Attack (attacks have a chance to instantly kill the victim), Energy Charge (builds up energy and attack power until hit or duration wears off), and Libra Sponge (user’s attacks grow stronger as he takes more damage).
Buff Powers include Super Armor (improves defensive strength and negates knock back), Brief Invincibility, Tirelessness, Lightweight (enables user to move faster and prevents tiring out but drops defense), Trade-Off (sacrifices nearly all the user health for a boost in stats), Aries Armor (reduces damage, prevents knockback, and heavily resists all status ailments), Bumblebee (dodges attacks by teleporting around the attacker), Counter (automatically retaliates against attacks and prevents knockback), Transparency (makes user invisible), and Playing Dead.
Recovery powers include Health Recovery (small heal), Crisis Recovery (takes user out of crisis mode), Effect Recovery (cures status ailments), and Pisces Heal (restores health equal to the attack that caused fatal damage).
Item powers include Throwing Boost (homing ability and distance of thrown items are enhanced).

Marth: Falchion, Darksphere, Lifesphere, Geosphere. Has access to silver weapons.

Roy: Sword of Seals. Has access to silver weapons.

Ike: Ragnell + axes + immune to critical hits + leadership stars + (assorted skills) + Yune‘s blessing. Has access to silver weapons.

Robin: (multiple classes) + (assorted skills). Has access to silver weapons.

Lucina: Same as Robin with some better statistics and skills + Falchion. Has access to silver weapons.

Kirby: 8 inches tall. Kirby‘s inhale gets boosted dramatically with Hypernova and even Kirby universe trees aren‘t safe. Kirby can spit stars of varying sizes depending on what he just sucked into his mouth. Kirby has all his copy abilities (one use for the one use abilities like Crash and Mike (3 uses)) and can sacrifice them to create a helper. Baton Kirby is especially dangerous. Kirby’s body is quite flexible and can be flattened or stretched at will. He can inflate himself to fly with no limits and can exhale out air bullets. He can also guard to minimize damage. Kirby can summon a Warp Star which moves at a pretty fast speed but tends to crash when flown close to the ground. Invincibility Candy lasts 20 seconds and he can hold 5 of them in his stomach.

King Dedede: Around twice Kirby’s height. ???

Meta Knight: 8 inches tall. His Dimensional Cape permits short range teleportation. His sword Galaxia lets him use special abilities that run off points (50 max). They are Meta Quick (temporary movement speed boost for 8 points), Knight Call (summons a Blade Knight or Sword Knight as a helper for 2 points), Heal (full health restore for him and his helper for 10 points), and Mach Tornado (creates a few tornadoes that attack the whole screen for 30 points). ???

Fox: Pilots Arwing + Landmaster. Arwing twin lasers have a very high rate of fire and the Smart Bombs (9 max) have devastating power and half a city block blast radius. The Landmaster weapons are just as good as the Arwings.

Falco: Same as Fox.

Wolf: Pilots Wolfen II. The Wolfen II has higher stats in all areas except maneuverability compared to the Arwing. It’s twin laser are on par with the Arwing. It‘s G-Diffuser shield can repel or negate charged lasers and Smart Bombs.

Pokemon Trainer: Uses Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, Pikachu, Lapras and Snorlax.

Pikachu: Electric type. Weak to ground, resists flying + steel + electric. Skills include static or lightning rod.

Pichu: Weaker version of Pikachu.

Charizard: Fire + flying type, male. Weak to Rock (4x) + Water + Ground, immune to ground, resists fighting + bug (1/4x) + steel + fire + grass (1/4x) + fairy. Can Mega Evolve.

Lucario: Fighting + Steel type, male. Weak to fighting + ground + fire, immune to poison, resists normal + rock + bug + steel + grass + ice + dragon + dark. Has inner focus skill. Can mega evolve.

Jigglypuff: Normal + Fairy type, female. Weak to poison + steel, immune to ghost + dragon, resists bug + dark. Skills include cute charm and competitive.

Mewtwo: Psychic type. Weak to bug + ghost + dark, resists fighting + psychic. Moves include magic room (blocks the use of items for 5 turns), trick room (reverses move order for 5 turns), Wonder Room (swaps the DEF and S. DEF for 5 turns), and telekinesis (guarantees 100% accuracy for 3 turns on opponent). Can Mega Evolve to two other forms.

Greninja: Water + Dark type, male. Has Protean skill.

Ness: Has PK Flash + Shield + Counter + Lifeup + Hypnosis + Paralyze + Rockin + Teleport, immune to fire + ice + paralysis + sleep + flash, reflects lightning.

Lucas: Has PK Flash + Shield + Counter + Lifeup + Rockin, reflects lightning.

Captain Falcon: A bounty hunter/racer. Uses a sidearm of unknown power. The Blue Falcon and Falcon Flyer seem to lack weapons. ???

Villager: A civilian wielding an axe and slingshot.

Olimar: Can have a 100 strong Pikmin army, they are all tiny though.

Little Mac: Stands at 5 foot 7 inches and 107 pounds. Has Beaten Mike Tyson/Mr. Dream and Mr. Sandman for the championship title. At the end of the day he is still just a boxer.

Wii Fit Trainer: Just a trainer.

Shulk: Monado Arts, Light Heal, Armor, Ether Gems, Skills, Skill Links. Some more info on page 151, post 6016.

Ice Climbers: there are two of them but they are one hit wonders that can’t even kill anything in their own game.

R.O.B.: Just a toy.

Duck Hunt: Just a dog and a duck.

Pac-Man: Can swim and dive. Can use a butt bounce, triple butt bounce that ends with a small shockwave, or a powered up butt bounce which causes a huge explosion but can be used only once per power up. Can use a Rev Roll which is a weaker version of Sonic’s spin dash as well as a box breaking flip kick. He can fire Pac-Dots from his hand in both normal and super versions but they have limited ammo. His power ups include Steel Body (his body becomes steel and he hardly can be damaged and is immune to the temperatures of lava), Electro Shock (can damage or stun enemies by shooting electricity from his hands), and Ribbon Ring (afterimages follow him and running a complete ring of them around the enemy will have it close and do damage).

Mega Man: Is a robot made of Ceratanium (Ceramic Titanium) with superhuman capabilities. Has multiple time stopping weapons such as Time Stopper (can’t be turned off and can’t attack during that time), and Flash Stopper (7 uses, can use arm cannon while in effect),as well as Time Slow (2 uses, requires charging) which slows down everything besides the user. The Mega Buster fires bullets of compressed solar energy that can puncture steel, destroy boulders and put 5 foot wide holes in stone walls. It can also be charged up 2 extra stages and the full charge is 3 times stronger than normal. Mega Arm lets him fire his fist at the enemy. The Energy Saver lets him use special weapons more often. Deathly vulnerable to spikes and substantial quantities of lava.

Sonic: Has a Super form and is quite fast. ???

Snake: Assorted weapons including pistols, assault rifles, SMGs, sniper rifles, Anti air missiles, guided missiles, grenades, mines, and a knife. He is excellent at CQC. His Soliton Radar maps out his surroundings and show the positions and facings of his enemies. His bandana gives him infinite ammo and his defense is boosted by body armor. Stealth camouflage renders him invisible. Some of his weapons can have suppressors. Pentazemin can help his sniping. Rations restore his health. Gas Mask lets him handle poison gases better. Other equipment includes binoculars, effective mine detectors, night vision goggles, Thermal goggles (which can spot Stealth Camouflage users), and Anti-personnel sensors.

Ryu (Street Fighter): Slightly superhuman martial artist. Uses basic punches, and kicks, as well as more advanced moves like jumping upper cuts, flying spin kicks, and Hadokens (throwing chi waves or fireballs).

Mii Brawler: Normal martial artist with some fiery punches and kicks, and can also throw shot puts.

Mii Swordfighter: Standard swordfighter that uses shuriken, chakrams. Can also send mini tornadoes at opponents and reflect projectiles.

Mii Gunner: Has short range flamethrower, missiles, reflectors, and PK magnet type shield.

Miscellaneous

Mario Powerups

Standard:
Super Mushroom

Projectile based:
Fire Flower
Hammer Suit
Super Flower
Ice Flower
Boomerang Flower
Gold Flower

Flight based:
Super Leaf/P Wing
Tanooki Suit (includes statue ability)
Cape Feather
Power Balloon
Carrot (Bunny)
Wing Cap
Bee Mushroom
Boo Mushroom
Red Star
Propeller Mushroom
Super Acorn/P-Acorn

Swimming based:
Frog Suit
Blue Shell
Penguin Suit (Ice balls included)

Invincibility based:
Super Star
Vanish Cap
Metal Cap
Mega Mushroom (might not work against stronger characters)
Rainbow Star

Copy based:
Copy Flower
Double Cherries

Other:
Mini Mushroom
Life Mushroom
Spring Mushroom
Cloud Flower (can create 3 clouds only)
Rock Mario (rolls around in a boulder)
Statue Leaf
Super Bell
Lucky Bell (has statue form)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

How is that an argument from ignorance? You’re the one who thinks that Sonic has an innate Nihil!

oh

@ monzer You aren’t giving up are you? Remember in order for Sonic to harm Male Robin he has to ram into him within the range that Counter activates. Don’t let Munoboy’s nonsense about Sonic ending up on the other side of the arena dissuade you, as that has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion.

You do realize that the whole "Sonic is FTL" argument stems from the instantly accelerating boost, right?

Going to top speed instantly doesn’t make Sonic FTL! The only speed we use to determine damage inflicted with is top cruising speed, as acceleration has nothing to do with that equation. Stop using such disingenuous arguments.

And in this case it is demonstrated otherwise with characters taking no damage when they attack walls, which should reflect back the damage of their own strength..

https://youtu.be/ycwIgcEGz40

As for the most powerful franchise counting non smash franchises and characters, the answer would be South Park: The Stick of Truth because 4 out of the 5 main characters are immortal or have omnipotent.

Lol, how omnipotent? Xenosaga by comparison has 4 realty warpers, 3 universal omnipotents and one higher universe omnipotent (just the act of moving its observational terminal through the lower universe can wipe out sizable chunks of galaxies).

Gravity is clearly a selective law of physics in, say, Mario. Brick Blocks, ? Blocks, platforms, etc float in midair all the time (the latter also occurs in many other series).

At least gravity works at a reasonable pace for the things that it does affect.

By the way, floating platforms are present in the Metroid series as well:

The Metroid platform might just be sticking out of the background.

Alternatively; any NPC that cannot be harmed(so not Luma, Gordo, Chrom (Falcon beat him down), Starfy, etc).

Chrom and Starfy are PCs (player characters) not NPCs (non-player characters).

Health restores don't make a character top tier.

They do if they have the durability and other statistics to back it up! Healing is basically a force multiplier here.

@Sodo, @ Kirby Dragons , @ monzer , @ Muster What do you think of my Tier list and bonus list on page 153, post 6116?

@ Munomario777 Did you know Ike beat Sonic in a debate (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/71826303)? I’m sure that must annoy you!

@ Kirby Dragons Congratulations on getting Munomario777 to back down.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Chrom and Starfy are PCs (player characters) not NPCs (non-player characters).

Errr...unless I've missed something Starfy is in no way playable in Smash. Chrom is a real stretch if you're counting Robin's Final Smash as making him playable.

 

[Munomario777]

Sorry for being away this past week. I was busy with cleaning up clutter and salvaging broken PCs.

No worries.

It’s not a counter attack. Do you see them launching a counter attack?

As in, an attack to counter the other attack, not a literally counter like Marth's down special.

Shulk does not have an engine.

Humans give off heat.

I have it being noted as 50 feet.

I can't remember if we actually decided it officially or not.

Ocarina of Time is the one with the collapsing tower.

Ah, here we go. "Midna, transforming into an enormous Twilit arachnoid, attacks Ganondorf, with the ensuing battle destroying the castle. However, Midna was no match for Ganondorf, and was promptly defeated by the Gerudo King."

So apparently he did destroy a castle.

Your only proving my point with that video. That video is from Mega Man 7 which means Mega Man showed Dr. Wiley mercy six times before.

The goal here is to destroy the opponent by any means necessary (or if not, at least incapacitate them). Morals and such apply, but Mega Man has been shown to be willing to kill a human, so it's not at all out of the question.

Samus can’t kill Ganondorf but she still wins by sealing him away with Darkburst.

I seem to recall something about Ganon travelling between dimensions, but I could be wrong.

Think about how much extra work that is. It looks like it had something to do with the Pokemon movies.

I don't have to think about how much work it is; I'm doing it right now. It takes about five seconds at most per quote block. It's much more legible, and ends up saving time when it comes to digging through replies. This "five replies per block" format is good enough, though.

If Monado Shield can block the Mechonis Sword than it will have no problem blocking any applicable ramming attacks from Sonic.

Prove its force.

How am I suppose to put a number on that!? Stop demanding proofs on unquantifiable feats!

I dunno, by calculating the sword's mass, its speed, and using that to find force?

The Monado’s physical form is an illusion, so it can’t be broken.

Prove that it cannot be broken.

The Monado overcomes deities, Sonic isn’t a deity, so it will overcome Sonic’s defenses.

How much force can said deities defend against?

High enough Defense renders Offense useless, so it is very relevant.

But no one is attacking the darknut in this context.

Link can overcome Ganondorf in their sword locks during their final battle in Twilight Princess.

Interesting.

All the physical, and beam attacks directed at him during cutscenes.

Such as?

When you said Mega Mario and co. will step on Shulk and others.

I don't see how that implies unlimited invincibility.

Yes it does. The bigger you are the thicker your skin and bones will be keeping your vitals further away from danger. Being taller also means your enemies won’t be able to hit certain parts of your body at all.

But the simple fact that "X is bigger than Y" does not make X more durable than Y.

That is still not being restrained.

He's restrained by his own abilities.

You don’t run away from a car, you jump out of the way at the last second.

What about in a hallway?

It refills instantly whenever he receives a vision.

When does this occur?

The Talent gauge restraint doesn’t seem to show up in cutscenes either.

It does in gameplay.

Why do you think that this is something that I can measure?

You could compare it to other attacks via, say, health bars and the like. If X attack outputs Y energy, and Z damages the health bar the same amount as X does, then Z would seem to also output Y energy.

Universe two (game), not Universe three (ending).

So, universe two has ether, but universe one did not, I take it? What's your point?

You can’t get proof for shulk’s internal thoughts.

Then Shulk's internal thoughts cannot be used as proof.

The Monado can manipulate atoms just fine.

When does it?

Your extrapolating here. The Master Sword is magical but it does not possess strength.

It deals double the damage compared to regular swords.

The Monado is capable of realty warping, the Chaos Emeralds are not.

The Chaos Emeralds have the ability to warp time and space, which are the two main "elements" of reality. I don't see how warping reality = disabling seven specific gems that can only be disabled by another specific gem.

Shulk started a new universe, that is omnipotence on a universal scale.

Only in his universe has he demonstrated this.

NO! I’m sick and tired of your lazy excuses!How about you give us proof of Sonic’s speed without using vague measurements and offhand mentions in the manual.

Manuals are canon, no?

Priority does not exist in Sonic games so don’t bother using it in relation to Pokemon.

Attacks with higher priority in Pokemon activate sooner, leading me to believe that it represents attack speed.

Trick Room has plenty of time to activate thanks to Sonic’s cockiness (which is responsible for starting the plot in multiple games).

Fair enough. His quills can sense danger, but it's rather up in the air as to how accurate that is/how it works.

Sonic has no way to bypass Metal Face’s armor so he loses. That quote I used was one of Metal Face’s lines in Xenoblade and I thought it would make a good finishing taunt for that matchup. All the other quotes in that matchup block have similar reasoning.

Sonic blasts through metal all the time like it ain't no thing, and he can do so when he's barely even moving thanks to his razor-sharp quills.

• Prove that Sonic can ignore Miracle.
• Prove that Sonic can ignore Counter.
• Sonic has to come into contact with his adversaries to damage them, which is clearly within Counter range.
• Walls don’t hit back!
• Isn’t Super Sonic stronger than all these non-deities? The awakening characters have regen via Renewal and Sonic won't be quick to ram into them again after that disastrous first hit.

• Prove that Miracle can block Sonic's attack force.
• Prove that Counter can retaliate with Sonic's attack force.
• Counter activates too slowly, as I proved rather recently.
• Sonic is feeling the full force of his own speed as he rams into a wall, just like a car feels a large amount of force when it rams into a wall.
• In terms of attack force, I'd say so.

How is that an argument from ignorance?

It's essentially "X is true because X has not been disproven." If you know what an argument from ignorance is, you know that this is one.

You’re the one who thinks that Sonic has an innate Nihil!

Last I checked, Sonic doesn't have the ability to automatically disable combat skills.

Going to top speed instantly doesn’t make Sonic FTL! The only speed we use to determine damage inflicted with is top cruising speed, as acceleration has nothing to do with that equation. Stop using such disingenuous arguments.

Did I ever say that the acceleration of the boost was the factor of it that pointed to FTL travel? No. The Light Speed Dash measures at about 396 "SPD", the game's speed measurement. The boost measures at 1,000+ SPD. The boost's SPD is greater than the Light Speed Dash's SPD, so that's where people get the whole FTL deal from.

https://youtu.be/ycwIgcEGz40

I got a chuckle out of that.

The Metroid platform might just be sticking out of the background.

True.

They do if they have the durability and other statistics to back it up! Healing is basically a force multiplier here.

Does Meta Knight?

@ Munomario777 Did you know Ike beat Sonic in a debate (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/71826303)? I’m sure that must annoy you!

Sonic's skill set is horribly limited (no Chaos Emeralds? pffft.) and yet he still crushed Ike with 73 votes to Ike's 17. I approve.

@ Kirby Dragons Congratulations on getting Munomario777 to back down.

If I find an argument to not be enjoyable anymore, I won't continue with it.

Errr...unless I've missed something Starfy is in no way playable in Smash. Chrom is a real stretch if you're counting Robin's Final Smash as making him playable.

He meant in their respective games. You play as Starfy in, well, Starfy.

Hey, wait a minute. I remember you from the Captain Toad thread!

 

[YoshiandToad]

He meant in their respective games. You play as Starfy in, well, Starfy.

Hey, wait a minute. I remember you from the Captain Toad thread!

Ah, right. That clears that up. I figured this was merely in the context of Smash. whoops.

Haha, hey! I'll revive the thread soon. Need to spread the good word about burying pickaxes into skulls, and mowing people down with vegetable based cannons again.

 

[Munomario777]

Ah, right. That clears that up. I figured this was merely in the context of Smash. whoops.

Haha, hey! I'll revive the thread soon. Need to spread the good word about burying pickaxes into skulls, and mowing people down with vegetable based cannons again.

Glad to hear! Speaking of which, I see you haven't added that moveset I linked in the thread a while back (I don't blame you; I didn't tag you in the post ). Feel free to add it to the OP when you revive the thread if you'd like!

/offtopic

 

[monzer]

Lol, how omnipotent? Xenosaga by comparison has 4 realty warpers, 3 universal omnipotents and one higher universe omnipotent (just the act of moving its observational terminal through the lower universe can wipe out sizable chunks of galaxies).

Kyle literally ascended to a higher plain of existence and became immortal and omnipotent. Butters can just will things on and out of existence. Kenny can't permanently die, and Cartman can summon Chuthulu, who also can't die.

Your tier list looks pretty solid. I would put the Kirby and pokemon characters much higher, and the star fox and Zelda characters lower. I'm not sure if Palutina is really SS tier status though, but other than that it looks good.

That character chart was great. I was working on myself but most of the things I know we're already on your's.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

I have a rudimentary one here (my opinion on them so it might not be that accurate):

Spoiler: spoilered for size

Mario: Can ground pound and do other Mario moves. Can use melee fire attacks by default and uses a hammer. Equipment renders him immune to fire + ice + lightning + status effects + instant death. Uses Mario power ups and Power Flower (power Balloon). Uses F.L.U.D.D..

Dr. Mario: Mario without power-ups or equipment.

Luigi: Can ground pound and do other Mario moves. Can use melee Lightning attacks by default and uses a hammer. Equipment renders him immune to status effects. Uses Mario power ups and Power Flower (vanish). Uses The Poltergust 3000 which can fire streams of flame, ice beams, and jets of water.

Peach: Equipment renders her immune to fire + ice + lightning + status effects + instant death. Can jump, and can ground pound like the others. Floats with her parasol and slaps her enemies. Her Mario RPG game let her use healing, silencing, sleep inducing, and bomb throwing moves. Uses Mario power ups.

Bowser: Has massive strength and durability. Can spew streams of flame and fireballs. Can roll around in a double shell. Can throw hammers, spiked balls, barrels and ground pound. Can greatly increase his size. The Meowser transformation can whip his tail and create up to 5 copies of himself with the double cherry. Rides the Koopa Clown Car and toss Mechakoopas and steel balls at his enemies. Rides the Bowser Mobile and throws bombs. Equipment renders him immune to fire + ice + lightning + status effects + instant death. ??? (meteors)

Bowser Jr.: Can use the Magic Paintbrush to create warps (requires washing to use for others), regular, electric and fire goop, as well as creating polluted piranha plants. He can spit fireballs like his father. He pilots the Junior Clown Car which has boxing gloves, can fire Torpedo Teds, Bob-ombs, spiked balls and it has ground pound capability. He also has Megahammer which can crush enemies with it‘s two hammer arms and can fire bullet bills and banzai bills. It can be defeated with bullet bills to it‘s weak spots. The Boomsday Machine is a slow moving tracked vehicle with three fireballs swinging around it‘s base, has a potent vacuum that sucks up clouds, and it fires slow moving fireballs. The cockpit at the top is vulnerable to attack but may be electrified at times.

Rosalina and Luma: Rosalina’s shield blocks physical attacks. She can levitate other people and float like a Luma. Can deflect Star Bits with her wand. Uses Mario Power ups. Lumas transform into various objects including Life Mushrooms, Launch stars and Galaxies.

Yoshi: Ingesting an enemy with his long tongue turns an enemy into a throw able egg (6 max). Has stronger jumping attacks than Mario and is also capable of ground pounds as well as flutter jumps. Power ups include wings (temporary), and Power Flower (fire breath).

Wario: Weights 308 pounds but has muscular legs and arms. He is extremely strong and can launch potent ramming attacks like the Corkscrew Conk and potent grapples. Can cause tremors with ground pound and earthquake punch. Power-ups include Bunny, Fire, Garlic (Super Mushroom), Bull Pot, Jet Pot, Dragon Pot, Eagle Statue, Dragon Crystal, King Dragon (requires previous two items together), and Power Flower (Metal). Thief (faster jumping and running), Cosmic (fires lasers that ricochet and has floaty jumps), Arty (creates blocks and warp doors but is immobile), Genius (can see invisible objects and has a punching glove extender), Sparky (lights up rooms and attacks with electricity), Captain (pilots a sub and fires torpedoes), Wicked (unlimited flight) can be reapplied any time. Is resistant to being frozen solid, set on fire and flattened (Bouncy and Flat).

Donkey Kong: A strong and fast 800 pound gorilla. Resistant or immune to hypnosis. The coconut gun can shoot homing ammo (characteristics unknown). Heart boost grants one more heart and banana juice grants 10 more hearts. May throw Orange Grenades (30 max).

Diddy Kong: A weak but nimble monkey. Resistant or immune to hypnosis. The Peanut Popgun can shoot homing ammo (characteristics unknown). Has limited flight with the Rocketbarrel jet pack. Heart boost grants one more heart and banana juice grants 10 more hearts. May throw Orange Grenades (30 max).

Link: Has Triforce of Courage. Can ride Epona and fight with Sword and Bow, also rides a Loftwing, is an accomplished Sumo wrestler, and can beat Ganondorf in a blade lock. Master of Multiple sword techniques from AOL and TP and can transform into a Wolf. Wields the Master Sword, Biggoron’s Sword (2-handed), Megaton Hammer (2-handed), Mirror Shield, bows (100 max)(fire/ice/light/bomb), Crossbow, boomerang, bombs (60 max), Bombchus (50 max), Water Bombs (30 max), Bomblings (20 max), Deku Nuts (40 max)(stun grenades), Scattershot (10 max)(a Slingshot shotgun), Longshot, Double Clawshots, Ball and Chain, Spinner, Lantern (uses oil), the Ocarina of Time (plays magic tunes), Fishing Rod (distracts Ganondorf), Lens of Truth, and 5 Bottles (Blue Potion/Great Fairy‘s Tears). Link can wear the Goron Tunic (renders him immune to extreme heat and gives him significant resistance to lava), Zora Tunic/Zora Armor (can breathe underwater), Magic Armor (drains 12 rupees when hit and 2 per second while worn), Hawkeye (aids sniping with the bow), Hover boots, and Iron Boots. He also has the Golden Gauntlets (which allows him to push or lift stone obelisks). AOL spells include Fairy (turns Link into a fairy), Fire (shoot fireballs from his sword), Jump (doubles jumping height), Life (replenishes health), Reflect (improves shield blocking capability and reflects Wizzrobe attacks), Shield (damage down 50%), and Thunder (hits all enemies on screen). His Wallet can hold 9K Rupees. He also receives Enhanced Defense from a Great Fairy (damage down 50%). Extreme weakness to cannonballs.

Young Link: Has Triforce of Courage. Can ride Epona and fight with Sword and Bow. Master of Counter techniques from WW. Wields the Master Sword and Four Sword(both fire beams at full health), Mirror Shield, Red Mail (damage down 75%), bows (70 max)(fire/ice/light/silver), boomerang, bombs (99 max)(super), Bombchus (99 max)(Oracle series can home in on enemies), Powder Keg (1 max), Deku Nuts (40 max)(stun grenades), Hyper Slingshot (99 for each ammo type max)(includes incendiary, normal, freezing, blowing away, and anti-possession ammo)(fires three seeds in different directions), Magic Hammer, Longshot, Red Candle, Lantern (runs on magic), Magical Rod (Book of Magic causes target to catch fire), Fire Rod (can burn enemies at range), Ice Rod (can freeze enemies at range), Cane of Byrna (protective force field that also injures enemies), Cane of Somaria (creates magic blocks that can explode sending shrapnel in four cardinal directions), Magic Cape (renders him invisible and intangible to certain objects), 6 Bottles (Chateau Romani), bug catching net (can deflect Ganondorf’s balls), the Ocarina of Time (plays magic tunes), The Lens of Truth, and the Shovel. He can transform with the Deku, Goron, Zora, and Fierce Deity Masks. He also has the Red Ring (damage down 75%), Stepladder, Raft, Power Bracelet (improves pushing strength), Titan’s Mitt (allows him to pick up very heavy stones), and Pegasus Boots (allows for high speed dashing after a short charge up time). Magic medallions include Bombos (explosive power across the screen), Ether (freezing winds from the upper atmosphere fill the screen), and Quake (powerful earthquake hit’s the whole screen). Link can burn surrounding enemies with Din’s Fire, Farore’s Wind let him return to previously placed warp points, and Nayru’s Love negates all damage received but won’t stop knockback. Link can use Pegasus seeds to run faster, Razor seeds to double attack, and armor seed to double defense (damage down 50%). His Wallet can hold 1K Rupees. He also receives Enhanced Defense from a Great Fairy (damage down 50%) and Enhanced Magic Capacity (magic use down 50%).

Toon Link: Has Triforce of Courage. Can ride the King of Red Lions across water. Wields the Master Sword, Wind Waker, Skull Hammer, Mirror Shield, bows (99 max)(fire/ice/light (super effective against evil enemies)), boomerang, bombs (99 max), Bombchus (30 max), Hookshot, Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf, and 4 Bottles (one Elixir Soup with 2 helpings and 3 Blue Potions). He also has the Power Bracelet (allows him to lift large stone heads), Magic Armor (drains 12 rupees when hit), and Iron Boots. His wallet can hold 10K rupees.

Zelda: Has the Triforce of Wisdom. Has horse riding experience. Can wield a bow (not particularly well) on foot and horseback and use light arrows. Has also been seen with a rapier.

Sheik: Is the alter ego of Zelda. Can throw Deku Nuts to stun opponent.

Ganondorf: Has the Triforce of Power. Can ride a horse and summon phantom horseman (Human). Has 3 viable forms: Human, Pig, and Beast (tail is vulnerable). Teleports around the room and throws fireballs and firebats (Pig). Can throw and control his Trident telekinetically (pig). His technique of darkness can render him invincible to all attacks if the room is enveloped in darkness (Pig). Can gain invisibility and stun Link by stomping the ground (Pig). Can unleash shockwaves at close range and use one or two swords with great skill (Human). His ranged attacks includes throwing many dark orbs at once and engaging in a game of “Tennis” which certain items like the Master Sword, Biggoron’s Sword, Megaton Hammer, Bug Catching Net, Shovel and Empty Bottles can reflect (Human). He can bash (like Shield Bash) Link and use a spin attack as well (Human). Immune to all attacks except Holy Light and silver based weapons. Can be confused with some item choices like the Fishing Rod.

Samus: Samus has shield protected power armor that boosts her capabilities (2X). She can lift 177 metric tons and has amazing traveling speed and stamina. Immune to temperatures below 800C and above -270.15C. Tanks 131,019.14 N. Immune to acid.
The arm cannon fires energy beams including x-rays, ice, plasma, electrolasers, matter-antimatter with high powered sonic aspect. It can fire assorted missiles as well (250 limit) as well as Super Missiles (60 max). Bombs can destroy sandstone but have low range (10M tops) and the power bombs (60 max) have a yield of at least 200+ metric tons of TNT (screen wide in Super Metroid/30M for just the fireball). Her Darkburst attack fires a weak black hole that only sucks in weak enemies and the Sonic Boom is even worst (hit scan level accuracy). Her wave buster can paralyze targets within 10 meters with electrical damage. She can freeze targets with the ice spreader or ice missiles. She can restore energy with the Crystal Flash technique which consumes 10 Missiles, 10 Super Missiles, and 11 Power Bombs and can only be used at 50 energy or less with the reserve tanks empty and requires the Morph Ball form. The Concentration technique allows Samus to refill her missiles or her energy by one tank if it is low and she can avoid being hit by the enemy. Samus has 20 energy tanks (100 energy for each, must use manually), and 4 reserve tanks (500 energy, used automatically if her energy hits zero). Samus has 4 E-Recovery Tanks which increase the number of energy tanks restored by Concentration by one per Recovery tank and lower the threshold for using Concentration.
Her gunship is equipped with twin power beam turrets and a rear mounted plasma beam cannon. It can also fully restore her shields and ammo. Also has a cloaking device. A different gunship has missile launchers. Her ships have been damaged by space pirates and destroyed by asteroids in the past.

Zero Suit Samus: Samus is more agile in this suit at the cost of substantially less protection. She cannot use any Power Suit upgrades at all. The Paralyzer is very weak and can only stun with a charged shot. Samus has 20 energy tanks (100 energy for each, must use manually).

Pit: wields a variety of weapons including bows (ranged weapon with strong homing capabilities and high shot speed but weak melee and a slow rate of fire), blades (Generalist weapon with balanced stats), claws (melee weapons with extended melee combos and improve speed but with poor shot homing and range), cannons (ranged weapon which fires explosive charged shots with a wide area of effect but slows down the user and has weak melee attacks), staves (ranged weapon with extreme range but weak melee, no homing, and greatly slows down user), arms (generalist weapon with powerful melee and ranged attacks but short ranged projectiles, and slow attack speed), palms (ranged weapons with high fire rate and strong homing capabilities but low attack power and fairly short range), orbitars (ranged weapons with strong homing capabilities and, can fire 2 shots at once but have poor melee capabilities), and clubs (generalist weapon with powerful melee and charged shots, can deflect projectiles and its shots pass through walls but it slows its user down, lacks continuous fire, and has limited combo potential). All weapons can attack in melee and at range. He possesses super human strength and durability. He can fly for as long as 5 minutes with the power of flight and can glide with his wings otherwise. He can be tired out after a while.

Dark Pit: Is a clone of Pit with a slightly different personality.

Palutena: Wields a staff and shield to battle. Possesses the Power of Flight, Power of Caging (traps victim in cage), Power of Maelstrom (makes it rain) and the Power of Cooling (provides great resistance to high temperatures). Her battle abilities include the Palutena Glam Blaster (similar to orbital beam strike but takes time to charge), Levitation (passive ability), can fire as many as 9 balls of light in rapid succession, can blind opponent with light for 3 seconds, can fire as many as 3 large, slow moving homing teal balls of light in rapid succession, can shoot 3 fast moving columns of light, can launch a slow moving Halo across the ground that homes in on and chases her target and can launch 3 projectiles of it’s own before dissipating. Her melee options include knocking back enemies who are too close by surrounding herself with rings of light, and zooming at her target in a column of light. She can summon Centurions or Centurion Knights but only one at a time but with no upper limit. The feats performed in her boss battle were done while in a weakened state thanks to the Chaos Kin draining her for three years.

Has limited omniscience that manifests with her knowing where everything is and what her enemies weaknesses and back story are.

Powers (Pit & Palutena only): Powers come in many flavors. Movement powers include Sky Jump, Rocket Jump (explosion can damage nearby enemies), Jump Glide, Angelic Missile (user slams into enemy at high speed), and Super Speed which can brush the enemy out of the way.
Attack powers include Mega Laser, Explosive Flame, Black Hole (does minor damage but ensnares the enemy), Meteor Shower, Land Mine, Reflect Barrier (returns projectiles to sender), and Heavenly Light (acts like an area spike).
Enhance powers include Autoreticle, Weak-Point Reticule, Quick Charge (shortens charge time of weapons), Homing Boost, Slip Shot (shots pass through solid objects), Invisible Shots, Random Effect (adds random bonus effect to attacks), Poison Attack, Paralyze Attack (slows down victim and stops them from dodging), Petrify Attack (stops the victims movement and doubles their defense but lasts longer than freeze), Shake Attack (cause a loss in accuracy for the victim and cancels the homing power on their shots), Confuse Attack (causes random movement and attacks), Burn Attack (DOT effect), Freeze Attack (freezes victim in place for a period of time), Instant Death Attack (attacks have a chance to instantly kill the victim), Energy Charge (builds up energy and attack power until hit or duration wears off), and Libra Sponge (user’s attacks grow stronger as he takes more damage).
Buff Powers include Super Armor (improves defensive strength and negates knock back), Brief Invincibility, Tirelessness, Lightweight (enables user to move faster and prevents tiring out but drops defense), Trade-Off (sacrifices nearly all the user health for a boost in stats), Aries Armor (reduces damage, prevents knockback, and heavily resists all status ailments), Bumblebee (dodges attacks by teleporting around the attacker), Counter (automatically retaliates against attacks and prevents knockback), Transparency (makes user invisible), and Playing Dead.
Recovery powers include Health Recovery (small heal), Crisis Recovery (takes user out of crisis mode), Effect Recovery (cures status ailments), and Pisces Heal (restores health equal to the attack that caused fatal damage).
Item powers include Throwing Boost (homing ability and distance of thrown items are enhanced).

Marth: Falchion, Darksphere, Lifesphere, Geosphere. Has access to silver weapons.

Roy: Sword of Seals. Has access to silver weapons.

Ike: Ragnell + axes + immune to critical hits + leadership stars + (assorted skills) + Yune‘s blessing. Has access to silver weapons.

Robin: (multiple classes) + (assorted skills). Has access to silver weapons.

Lucina: Same as Robin with some better statistics and skills + Falchion. Has access to silver weapons.

Kirby: 8 inches tall. Kirby‘s inhale gets boosted dramatically with Hypernova and even Kirby universe trees aren‘t safe. Kirby can spit stars of varying sizes depending on what he just sucked into his mouth. Kirby has all his copy abilities (one use for the one use abilities like Crash and Mike (3 uses)) and can sacrifice them to create a helper. Baton Kirby is especially dangerous. Kirby’s body is quite flexible and can be flattened or stretched at will. He can inflate himself to fly with no limits and can exhale out air bullets. He can also guard to minimize damage. Kirby can summon a Warp Star which moves at a pretty fast speed but tends to crash when flown close to the ground. Invincibility Candy lasts 20 seconds and he can hold 5 of them in his stomach.

King Dedede: Around twice Kirby’s height. ???

Meta Knight: 8 inches tall. His Dimensional Cape permits short range teleportation. His sword Galaxia lets him use special abilities that run off points (50 max). They are Meta Quick (temporary movement speed boost for 8 points), Knight Call (summons a Blade Knight or Sword Knight as a helper for 2 points), Heal (full health restore for him and his helper for 10 points), and Mach Tornado (creates a few tornadoes that attack the whole screen for 30 points). ???

Fox: Pilots Arwing + Landmaster. Arwing twin lasers have a very high rate of fire and the Smart Bombs (9 max) have devastating power and half a city block blast radius. The Landmaster weapons are just as good as the Arwings.

Falco: Same as Fox.

Wolf: Pilots Wolfen II. The Wolfen II has higher stats in all areas except maneuverability compared to the Arwing. It’s twin laser are on par with the Arwing. It‘s G-Diffuser shield can repel or negate charged lasers and Smart Bombs.

Pokemon Trainer: Uses Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, Pikachu, Lapras and Snorlax.

Pikachu: Electric type. Weak to ground, resists flying + steel + electric. Skills include static or lightning rod.

Pichu: Weaker version of Pikachu.

Charizard: Fire + flying type, male. Weak to Rock (4x) + Water + Ground, immune to ground, resists fighting + bug (1/4x) + steel + fire + grass (1/4x) + fairy. Can Mega Evolve.

Lucario: Fighting + Steel type, male. Weak to fighting + ground + fire, immune to poison, resists normal + rock + bug + steel + grass + ice + dragon + dark. Has inner focus skill. Can mega evolve.

Jigglypuff: Normal + Fairy type, female. Weak to poison + steel, immune to ghost + dragon, resists bug + dark. Skills include cute charm and competitive.

Mewtwo: Psychic type. Weak to bug + ghost + dark, resists fighting + psychic. Moves include magic room (blocks the use of items for 5 turns), trick room (reverses move order for 5 turns), Wonder Room (swaps the DEF and S. DEF for 5 turns), and telekinesis (guarantees 100% accuracy for 3 turns on opponent). Can Mega Evolve to two other forms.

Greninja: Water + Dark type, male. Has Protean skill.

Ness: Has PK Flash + Shield + Counter + Lifeup + Hypnosis + Paralyze + Rockin + Teleport, immune to fire + ice + paralysis + sleep + flash, reflects lightning.

Lucas: Has PK Flash + Shield + Counter + Lifeup + Rockin, reflects lightning.

Captain Falcon: A bounty hunter/racer. Uses a sidearm of unknown power. The Blue Falcon and Falcon Flyer seem to lack weapons. ???

Villager: A civilian wielding an axe and slingshot.

Olimar: Can have a 100 strong Pikmin army, they are all tiny though.

Little Mac: Stands at 5 foot 7 inches and 107 pounds. Has Beaten Mike Tyson/Mr. Dream and Mr. Sandman for the championship title. At the end of the day he is still just a boxer.

Wii Fit Trainer: Just a trainer.

Shulk: Monado Arts, Light Heal, Armor, Ether Gems, Skills, Skill Links. Some more info on page 151, post 6016.

Ice Climbers: there are two of them but they are one hit wonders that can’t even kill anything in their own game.

R.O.B.: Just a toy.

Duck Hunt: Just a dog and a duck.

Pac-Man: Can swim and dive. Can use a butt bounce, triple butt bounce that ends with a small shockwave, or a powered up butt bounce which causes a huge explosion but can be used only once per power up. Can use a Rev Roll which is a weaker version of Sonic’s spin dash as well as a box breaking flip kick. He can fire Pac-Dots from his hand in both normal and super versions but they have limited ammo. His power ups include Steel Body (his body becomes steel and he hardly can be damaged and is immune to the temperatures of lava), Electro Shock (can damage or stun enemies by shooting electricity from his hands), and Ribbon Ring (afterimages follow him and running a complete ring of them around the enemy will have it close and do damage).

Mega Man: Is a robot made of Ceratanium (Ceramic Titanium) with superhuman capabilities. Has multiple time stopping weapons such as Time Stopper (can’t be turned off and can’t attack during that time), and Flash Stopper (7 uses, can use arm cannon while in effect),as well as Time Slow (2 uses, requires charging) which slows down everything besides the user. The Mega Buster fires bullets of compressed solar energy that can puncture steel, destroy boulders and put 5 foot wide holes in stone walls. It can also be charged up 2 extra stages and the full charge is 3 times stronger than normal. Mega Arm lets him fire his fist at the enemy. The Energy Saver lets him use special weapons more often. Deathly vulnerable to spikes and substantial quantities of lava.

Sonic: Has a Super form and is quite fast. ???

Snake: Assorted weapons including pistols, assault rifles, SMGs, sniper rifles, Anti air missiles, guided missiles, grenades, mines, and a knife. He is excellent at CQC. His Soliton Radar maps out his surroundings and show the positions and facings of his enemies. His bandana gives him infinite ammo and his defense is boosted by body armor. Stealth camouflage renders him invisible. Some of his weapons can have suppressors. Pentazemin can help his sniping. Rations restore his health. Gas Mask lets him handle poison gases better. Other equipment includes binoculars, effective mine detectors, night vision goggles, Thermal goggles (which can spot Stealth Camouflage users), and Anti-personnel sensors.

Ryu (Street Fighter): Slightly superhuman martial artist. Uses basic punches, and kicks, as well as more advanced moves like jumping upper cuts, flying spin kicks, and Hadokens (throwing chi waves or fireballs).

Mii Brawler: Normal martial artist with some fiery punches and kicks, and can also throw shot puts.

Mii Swordfighter: Standard swordfighter that uses shuriken, chakrams. Can also send mini tornadoes at opponents and reflect projectiles.

Mii Gunner: Has short range flamethrower, missiles, reflectors, and PK magnet type shield.

Miscellaneous

Mario Powerups

Standard:
Super Mushroom

Projectile based:
Fire Flower
Hammer Suit
Super Flower
Ice Flower
Boomerang Flower
Gold Flower

Flight based:
Super Leaf/P Wing
Tanooki Suit (includes statue ability)
Cape Feather
Power Balloon
Carrot (Bunny)
Wing Cap
Bee Mushroom
Boo Mushroom
Red Star
Propeller Mushroom
Super Acorn/P-Acorn

Swimming based:
Frog Suit
Blue Shell
Penguin Suit (Ice balls included)

Invincibility based:
Super Star
Vanish Cap
Metal Cap
Mega Mushroom (might not work against stronger characters)
Rainbow Star

Copy based:
Copy Flower
Double Cherries

Other:
Mini Mushroom
Life Mushroom
Spring Mushroom
Cloud Flower (can create 3 clouds only)
Rock Mario (rolls around in a boulder)
Statue Leaf
Super Bell
Lucky Bell (has statue form)

This list is amazing. Would you mind if I used it as a base and edited it as people bring up more feats/abilities?

 

[Crystanium]

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
Nice list, but a few corrections are needed. The power bomb is 3.01 kilotons of TNT. There are only three (3) e-recovery tanks, not four (4). Samus has 74 power bombs, but can charge up normal bombs, which would make her power bombs infinite. Sonic boom is not hit scan like I thought it was.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

No one cares except Shulkians. Ether doesn't exist in this battlefield.

How do I dislike a post?

Humans give off heat.

Ah, here we go. "Midna, transforming into an enormous Twilit arachnoid, attacks Ganondorf, with the ensuing battle destroying the castle. However, Midna was no match for Ganondorf, and was promptly defeated by the Gerudo King."

So apparently he did destroy a castle.

The goal here is to destroy the opponent by any means necessary (or if not, at least incapacitate them). Morals and such apply, but Mega Man has been shown to be willing to kill a human, so it's not at all out of the question.

I seem to recall something about Ganon traveling between dimensions, but I could be wrong.

I don't have to think about how much work it is; I'm doing it right now. It takes about five seconds at most per quote block. It's much more legible, and ends up saving time when it comes to digging through replies. This "five replies per block" format is good enough, though.

Not to the point where modern weapons systems can lock on.

Video link as I don’t remember Hyrule castle being destroyed during Twilight Princess (it was pretty dilapidated though)? Even if it were true I’m sure Midna played a role.

A human would have to really push his buttons to get to that point though.

He uses the power of twilight to do that and I’m not certain it will save him in that situation.

Ok then, I’ll try to continue meeting you half way on this subject.

Prove its force.

I dunno, by calculating the sword's mass, its speed, and using that to find force?

Prove that it cannot be broken.

What about in a hallway?

When does this occur?

Considering how strong the impact forces from that blow are, I won’t need to prove anything.

I’m no good at that, and the variables aren’t just lying around for me to use or I would have used them. Let’s not even consider the difference in game size and developer quoted size would make on the calculations!

Common sense, do you have it?

You jump over it in these conditions and multiple fighters on the roster can pull that off.

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Bravery last skill in this branch.

So, universe two has ether, but universe one did not, I take it? What's your point?

When does it?

It deals double the damage compared to regular swords.

Manuals are canon, no?

Attacks with higher priority in Pokemon activate sooner, leading me to believe that it represents attack speed.

The ether got there somehow.

Universe #1 > Universe #2

Isn’t that because the first sword is a crappy wooden sword?

Manuals and localizations from the early video game eras are rife with mistakes and errors.

That is what the Speed stat is for.

Sonic blasts through metal all the time like it ain't no thing, and he can do so when he's barely even moving thanks to his razor-sharp quills.

Did I ever say that the acceleration of the boost was the factor of it that pointed to FTL travel? No. The Light Speed Dash measures at about 396 "SPD", the game's speed measurement. The boost measures at 1,000+ SPD. The boost's SPD is greater than the Light Speed Dash's SPD, so that's where people get the whole FTL deal from.

I got a chuckle out of that.

Sonic's skill set is horribly limited (no Chaos Emeralds? pffft.) and yet he still crushed Ike with 73 votes to Ike's 17. I approve.

If I find an argument to not be enjoyable anymore, I won't continue with it.

If Mechon armor was that easy to cut through they wouldn’t be a mortal threat to the Homs civilization. Would you say that Sonic could just tear straight through this fellow http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Knight_(character)#Path_of_Radiance during the time of POR?

There is no reason to believe that Light Speed Dash = Light Speed.

Sonic better not pick up and use that http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Devil_Axe or the same could happen to him!

: Yo Sonic!
: Roy, what do you need?
: Lilina has heard that you are good with swords, but she wants to know if you can use axes as well.
: Of course I can, I’m a Hero after all and I can't disappoint a cute princess!
: You want to take this Axe out for a spin on those twenty Badniks over there?
(tosses Devil Axe over to Sonic)
: Sure I won’t even break a sweat!
(Sonic’s spines are tingling)
: (These Badniks must be far more dangerous than I thought. I better end this quickly.)
(Sonic cuts through a dozen foes but drops dead as he strikes the thirteenth. The curse of the Devil Axe claims its next victim.)

It’s not just Sonic who gets nerfed, have you seen how they just ignore Ike’s durability or how they used Brawl size Olimar and 100 Pikmin vs Ike? I suppose you haven’t seen the fallout here http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/71834275

Maybe we should stop arguing as well (that will never happen, will it?).

Kyle literally ascended to a higher plain of existence and became immortal and omnipotent. Butters can just will things on and out of existence. Kenny can't permanently die, and Cartman can summon Cthulhu, who also can't die.

Your tier list looks pretty solid. I would put the Kirby and pokemon characters much higher, and the star fox and Zelda characters lower. I'm not sure if Palutena is really SS tier status though, but other than that it looks good.

That character chart was great. I was working on myself but most of the things I know we're already on your's.

Kyle is the only dangerous one in that bunch of jokers and the remaining three can be defeated via Eternal Recurrence (http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/Eternal_Recurrence). I have to fight for Monolith Soft’s honor.

Palutena is weird because she never fights directly of her own volition yet still packs amazing displays of power. The fact that the only time you fight her was when she was severely weakened only complicates her position further.

This list is amazing. Would you mind if I used it as a base and edited it as people bring up more feats/abilities?

Sure be my guest.

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
Nice list, but a few corrections are needed. The power bomb is 3.01 kilotons of TNT. There are only three (3) e-recovery tanks, not four (4). Samus has 74 power bombs, but can charge up normal bombs, which would make her power bombs infinite. Sonic boom is not hit scan like I thought it was.

Made the corrections to my list on my computer, but I don’t think another 14 Power Bombs + charging will let her beat anyone she can’t already beat.



@ monzer , @Dryn and @ DjinnandTonic My list isn’t all that great and I wasted many hours typing it up.

 

[Munomario777]

Not to the point where modern weapons systems can lock on.

You'd be surprised.

Video link as I don’t remember Hyrule castle being destroyed during Twilight Princess (it was pretty dilapidated though)?

Sadly, as I haven't played Twilight Princess (and don't care to comb through hours of LPs looking for one scene), I don't have a video. :/

Even if it were true I’m sure Midna played a role.

She was no match for Ganon, it would seem.

A human would have to really push his buttons to get to that point though.

I'd imagine trying to kill him would accomplish that.

He uses the power of twilight to do that and I’m not certain it will save him in that situation.

I see.

Ok then, I’ll try to continue meeting you half way on this subject.

Sounds good.

Considering how strong the impact forces from that blow are, I won’t need to prove anything.

How strong?

I’m no good at that,

There are calculators online for this sort of thing.

and the variables aren’t just lying around for me to use or I would have used them. Let’s not even consider the difference in game size and developer quoted size would make on the calculations!

Developers clarified the size? Then just use that.

Common sense, do you have it?

I don't see how something being "an illusion" makes it indestructible.

You jump over it in these conditions and multiple fighters on the roster can pull that off.

People can jump over cars (at least, in video games). Can Shulk dodge an object moving at the high speeds we're working with?

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Bravery last skill in this branch.

I meant, when does Shulk receive a vision?

The ether got there somehow.

Did Shulk do it singlehandedly?

Universe #1 > Universe #2

Hm?

Isn’t that because the first sword is a crappy wooden sword?

Not in The Wind Waker:

Manuals and localizations from the early video game eras are rife with mistakes and errors.

How early? Sonic Adventure DX was released on the GameCube, and the original game was released on the Dreamcast. Both of these are past the NES/SNES era, which is the only time when I've seen many major errors.

That is what the Speed stat is for.

Do attacks have a Speed stat?

If Mechon armor was that easy to cut through they wouldn’t be a mortal threat to the Homs civilization.

They didn't have any way to produce 45212697.67 pounds of force.

Would you say that Sonic could just tear straight through this fellow http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Knight_(character)#Path_of_Radiance during the time of POR?

If it weren't for his Ganon-style "only holy weapons can harm me rule", I'd say so.

There is no reason to believe that Light Speed Dash = Light Speed.

Except, you know, the fact that it's stated to move at light speed.

Sonic better not pick up and use that http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Devil_Axe or the same could happen to him!

: Yo Sonic!
: Roy, what do you need?
: Lilina has heard that you are good with swords, but she wants to know if you can use axes as well.
: Of course I can, I’m a Hero after all and I can't disappoint a cute princess!
: You want to take this Axe out for a spin on those twenty Badniks over there?
(tosses Devil Axe over to Sonic)
: Sure I won’t even break a sweat!
(Sonic’s spines are tingling)
: (These Badniks must be far more dangerous than I thought. I better end this quickly.)
(Sonic cuts through a dozen foes but drops dead as he strikes the thirteenth. The curse of the Devil Axe claims its next victim.)

Haha.

It’s not just Sonic who gets nerfed, have you seen how they just ignore Ike’s durability or how they used Brawl size Olimar and 100 Pikmin vs Ike? I suppose you haven’t seen the fallout here http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/71834275

Yikes. It's almost like Death Battle or something.

Maybe we should stop arguing as well (that will never happen, will it?).

I'm still enjoying this.

 

[monzer]

Kyle is the only dangerous one in that bunch of jokers and the remaining three can be defeated via Eternal Recurrence (http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/Eternal_Recurrence). I have to fight for Monolith Soft’s honor.

Still, no character I know of will be able to kill Kyle or imagineationland Butters.

@ Munomario777 @Dryn @ YoshiandToad @ DjinnandTonic
I just started working on a canon matchup chart. All I have right now are Bowser's matchups though. Tell me if this looks accurate and if the layout is decent.

Bowser curbstomps:


Bowser beats:


Bowser ties:


Bowser loses:


Bowser gets curbstomped:

 

[Crystanium]

Satoru Iwata, President of Nintendo of Japan passed away on July 11, 2015.

Requiescat in pace.

Edit

Bowser curbstomps:


Bowser beats:


Bowser ties:


Bowser loses:


Bowser gets curbstomped:

I don't know how Bowser would defeat Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Wolf, Link, Mario and Luigi, or Mega Man. I think Bowser would defeat Bowser Jr., but would lose against Charizard. I think Zamus could possibly pull off a win. I don't know how Ness or Lucas would defeat Bowser.

 

[monzer]

Satoru Iwata, President of Nintendo of Japan passed away on July 11, 2015. Requiescat in pace. Edit I don't know how Bowser would defeat Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Wolf, Link, Mario and Luigi, or Mega Man. I think Bowser would defeat Bowser Jr., but would lose against Charizard. I think Zamus could possibly pull off a win. I don't know how Ness or Lucas would defeat Bowser.

Satoru Iwata, President of Nintendo of Japan passed away on July 11, 2015. Requiescat in pace. Edit I don't know how Bowser would defeat Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Wolf, Link, Mario and Luigi, or Mega Man. I think Bowser would defeat Bowser Jr., but would lose against Charizard. I think Zamus could possibly pull off a win. I don't know how Ness or Lucas would defeat Bowser.

Satoru Iwata, President of Nintendo of Japan passed away on July 11, 2015. Requiescat in pace. Edit I don't know how Bowser would defeat Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Wolf, Link, Mario and Luigi, or Mega Man. I think Bowser would defeat Bowser Jr., but would lose against Charizard. I think Zamus could possibly pull off a win. I don't know how Ness or Lucas would defeat Bowser.

 

[Fuerzo]

Why exactly would Bowser lose to characters which have canonically beaten him at least dozens of times?

 

[monzer]

Why exactly would Bowser lose to characters which have canonically beaten him at least dozens of times?

Mario barely ever beats Bowser without using some kind of switch that cause him to fall into lava or something like that.

I don't know how Bowser would defeat Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Wolf, Link, Mario and Luigi, or Mega Man. I think Bowser would defeat Bowser Jr., but would lose against Charizard. I think Zamus could possibly pull off a win. I don't know how Ness or Lucas would defeat Bowser.

By the way, I'm talking about bowser in his strongest form, say, giant skelloton bowser. I'm not sure about Falcon either, I don't think he is much more durable than a normal human, right? Mega man doesn't really seem that durable, although that may just be because he is overshadowed by Samus. Bowser can just roast the ships of the Star Fox characters. Bowser Jr. has lots of giant robots and things. Charizard and Zamus would beat Bowser, but the matchup is close enough that I'll call it a tie. Ness and Lucas are pretty durable, surviving attacks from Gigues.

 

[Fuerzo]

Mario barely ever beats Bowser without using some kind of switch that cause him to fall into lava or something like that.

In all of those games you can beat him with fireballs as well, and Bowser has lost plenty of "proper" fights against Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi.

 

[Skyblade12]

Mr. Iwata-san is canonically the strongest.