Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Thrust.

Provide an example of something with such little thrust staying aloft, even when pushed downwards by another object (which does occur in the games).

It hasn't been retconned.

It hasn't been brought up in later games either, implying that it only happened once.

Even then, the Mario universe isn't your typical universe.

Indeed it isn't.

I know.

So provide an example with an object moving as slowly as Bullet Bills do.

Airplanes experience thrust (moving forward), drag (the air resistance pushing opposite of its thrust), gravitational force (pushing it down), and lift (the wings assist this by pushing air downward, lifting it up). If an object has a powerful thrust, then it doesn't need wings, just like bullets. Apparently, high power rifles can fire bullets, which can travel up to 4.5 kilometers and up to 1.6 kilometers. Type in "how far do bullets travel" on Google.

Bullets are faster than Bullet Bills.

It was about selective gravity. Right now, working with the calculation in Metroid Fusion gives us 7.88 g. Unaided, Samus could experience gravity like that on Jupiter just comfortably, whereas we'd be crushed.

I'm not quite seeing your point here.

 

[monzer]

Does he survive "universe busting" attacks?

Magolor Soul, as I've said before, was stated multiple times to be a universe buster.

Since when does Meta Knight have "universal power"?

Being able to defeat a universe buster.

Samus can use crystal flash, which regenerates all of her energy with an additional of some energy for the reserve tanks. In other words, if we're using strictly the best, then Samus has 20 energy tanks with 4 reserve tanks and 3 e-recovery tanks, giving a total of 2,499 energy and an additional 399 energy for every time Samus uses concentration. If we're using all of the energy tanks, however. That's 11,699 energy. Crystal flash would allow Samus to do this around 4 to 5 times as well. That would kind of be like 448 energy tanks.

Is there any catch to this? Do some of Samus's other useful attacks require energy too?

 

[Munomario777]

Magolor Soul, as I've said before, was stated multiple times to be a universe buster.

Does he use the same attacks to both destroy universes and attack Meta Knight? If so, prove it.

Being able to defeat a universe buster.

Defeating someone who can destroy a universe =/= destroying a universe.

 

[monzer]

Does he use the same attacks to both destroy universes and attack Meta Knight? If so, prove it.

There's no real evidence, but why wouldn't he use his full power.

Defeating someone who can destroy a universe =/= destroying a universe.

It still means you have the power to do it.

This is one of those things that really comes down to opinion and how you interpret things,so there's no real right answer. I think Meta Knight does have this kind of power, you don't.

 

[Munomario777]

There's no real evidence, but why wouldn't he use his full power.

If there's no evidence, then I cannot treat it as true.

It still means you have the power to do it.

Why is that?

 

[Crystanium]

Provide an example of something with such little thrust staying aloft, even when pushed downwards by another object (which does occur in the games).

You're asking me to presuppose these projectiles are traveling that slow in the first place, even though if Mario gets hit by it, he'll die. If there is any truth in MatPat's video concerning a Bullet Bill, it'd only produce 2,000 newtons, which is approximately 0.37 time the average force of a soccer ball kicked by a professional soccer player.

It hasn't been brought up in later games either, implying that it only happened once

Either way, I'll leave it to magic considering items come out if them.

I'm not quite seeing your point here.

It's not relevant anymore. There are alternatives to addressing your issue.

 

[Munomario777]

You're asking me to presuppose these projectiles are traveling that slow in the first place, even though if Mario gets hit by it, he'll die. If there is any truth in MatPat's video concerning a Bullet Bill, it'd only produce 2,000 newtons, which is approximately 0.37 time the average force of a soccer ball kicked by a professional soccer player.

I'll chalk it up touch damage (which is rather common in the Mario series).

Either way, I'll leave it to magic considering items come out if them.

I wouldn't say that boxes containing items is exactly "magical".

 

[Crystanium]

I'll chalk it up touch damage (which is rather common in the Mario series).

I wouldn't say that boxes containing items is exactly "magical".

So if Mario comes into contact with his opponent, he'll die? All right.

Those boxes are magical if they can generate items like that, especially considering those mushrooms move on their own and fireballs can be fired from a fire flower.

 

[monzer]

If there's no evidence, then I cannot treat it as true.

It's been quoted several times, so Magalor Soul is a universe buster

Why is that?

Because he is more powerful than a universe buster, therefore he has universal(or at least close to universal) power.

 

[Munomario777]

So if Mario comes into contact with his opponent, he'll die? All right.

No, I'm saying that it's either A) an attribute of the enemies themselves or B) a game mechanic.

Those boxes are magical if they can generate items like that, especially considering those mushrooms move on their own and fireballs can be fired from a fire flower.

They don't generate items; they only contain one, and you can't get another. A box having magical contents doesn't necessitate a magical box.

It's been quoted several times, so Magalor Soul is a universe buster

When was it quoted? Also, unless you can prove that the same is true about the attacks used against Meta Knight, this is irrelevant.

Because he is more powerful than a universe buster, therefore he has universal(or at least close to universal) power.

Prove that he's more powerful.

 

[monzer]

When was it quoted? Also, unless you can prove that the same is true about the attacks used against Meta Knight, this is irrelevant.

Didnt I already show you the quotes? Magalor clearly had the power to control the universe, there's no reson why he would not use his "infinite power" on Meta Knight or any of the Kirby characters for that matter. There's not much I can really do to change your mind on this, it really comes down to opinion on how much power Magalor used in that battle.

Prove that he's more powerful.

Meta Knight is able to defeat him.

 

[Munomario777]

Didnt I already show you the quotes?

Not that I can recall.

Magalor clearly had the power to control the universe, there's no reson why he would not use his "infinite power" on Meta Knight or any of the Kirby characters for that matter.

Ah yes, that. If Magalor did have/was using the ability to control the universe at will (or infinite power), there is literally no way that Kirby or MK could win. Infinite power is unstoppable; it's, well, infinite.

Meta Knight is able to defeat him.

Mario defeats Bowser all the time, but Bowser is clearly more powerful.

 

[Hardy]

Those boxes are magical if they can generate items like that, especially considering those mushrooms move on their own and fireballs can be fired from a fire flower.

IIRC the original SMB stated that the blocks are Toads turned into boxes by magic.

 

[Munomario777]

IIRC the original SMB stated that the blocks are Toads turned into boxes by magic.

Yes, but that's only the first game; it's not mentioned in later games.

Also, welcome to the thread!

 

[Crystanium]

No, I'm saying that it's either A) an attribute of the enemies themselves or B) a game mechanic.

And the continuous flight couldn't be considered a game mechanic?

They don't generate items; they only contain one, and you can't get another. A box having magical contents doesn't necessitate a magical box.

They're magical in that they come out of the block with nothing to bring them out, except getting punched or ground pounded.

 

[monzer]

Not that I can recall.

http://imgur.com/a/uo4m4

Ah yes, that. If Magalor did have/was using the ability to control the universe at will (or infinite power), there is literally no way that Kirby or MK could win. Infinite power is unstoppable; it's, well, infinite.

Unless, Meta Knight and Kirby have infinite durability. I do doubt that Magalor actually had infinite power, but he was still a universe buster.

Mario defeats Bowser all the time, but Bowser is clearly more powerful.

Mario usually beats Bowser because of a conveniently placed switch. Meta Knight beat Magalor because he was much faster.

 

[Munomario777]

And the continuous flight couldn't be considered a game mechanic?

It could be a game mechanic.

They're magical in that they come out of the block with nothing to bring them out, except getting punched or ground pounded.

Mario's punch and ground pound can break bricks. I'm sure that's enough force to hit a flower out of a box.

http://imgur.com/a/uo4m4

Ruling a universe =/= destroying it.

Unless, Meta Knight and Kirby have infinite durability.

Except they don't, as shown throughout the series.

I do doubt that Magalor actually had infinite power, but he was still a universe buster.

When does he destroy a universe?

Mario usually beats Bowser because of a conveniently placed switch. Meta Knight beat Magalor because he was much faster.

Being faster than someone =/= being more powerful than someone.

 

[Crystanium]

Magolor has limitless power, but that doesn't mean he's utilized it properly. Ruling a universe also doesn't mean that Magolor was trying to kill everyone.

 

[monzer]

It could be a game mechanic.
Mario's punch and ground pound can break bricks. I'm sure that's enough force to hit a flower out of a box.
Ruling a universe =/= destroying it.
Except they don't, as shown throughout the series.
When does he destroy a universe?
Being faster than someone =/= being more powerful than someone.

We might as well just agree to disagree, like every other debate we've had so far. There's no real right or wrong answer on this.

 

[Munomario777]

We might as well just agree to disagree, like every other debate we've had so far. There's no real right or wrong answer on this.

I disagree with that, but if you don't want to debate this any more, then I'll stop as well.

 

[monzer]

I disagree with that, but if you don't want to debate this any more, then I'll stop as well.

It's really up to interpretation.

@Dryn
Is there any catch to Samus's healing?

I'm going on vacation next week so I won't be able to post. That's the main reson why I wanted to agree to disagree with Munomario.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn
Is there any catch to Samus's healing?

I'm going on vacation next week so I won't be able to post. That's the main reson why I wanted to agree to disagree with Munomario.

Samus needs 50 energy or less, empty reserve tanks, and needs at least 10 missiles, 10 super missiles, and 11 power bombs (a power bomb needs to be used to activate and the other ten will be used up). The explosion should prevent any possible threat while in a vulnerable state. You can see here. Samus acquires 250 missiles and 74 power bombs in Metroid Fusion. The missiles are combined with super missiles, so that should count as well. This means Samus could heal herself six times, only because she'll run out of power bombs sooner than missiles. Even after six uses, Samus will still have 190 missiles and 8 power bombs left. 20 energy tanks times 6 is 120 energy tanks. This is Metroid Fusion alone.

 

[Munomario777]

Samus needs 50 energy or less, empty reserve tanks, and needs at least 10 missiles, 10 super missiles, and 11 power bombs (a power bomb needs to be used to activate and the other ten will be used up). The explosion should prevent any possible threat while in a vulnerable state. You can see here. Samus acquires 250 missiles and 74 power bombs in Metroid Fusion. The missiles are combined with super missiles, so that should count as well. This means Samus could heal herself six times, only because she'll run out of power bombs sooner than missiles. Even after six uses, Samus will still have 190 missiles and 8 power bombs left. 20 energy tanks times 6 is 120 energy tanks. This is Metroid Fusion alone.

The explosion seems to only last a moment, with Samus left healing and vulnerable for about three seconds afterwards. I'd imagine you could get a few attacks in during that period, so Samus will have to use this wisely. The speed booster might give her some room to breathe.

 

[Crystanium]

The explosion seems to only last a moment, with Samus left healing and vulnerable for about three seconds afterwards. I'd imagine you could get a few attacks in during that period, so Samus will have to use this wisely. The speed booster might give her some room to breathe.

This is the same power bomb Samus uses in Metroid: Other M. The former game was made in 1994, the latter was 2010. To address any doubt on the explosion's duration, observe the following. I think a research station as large as that would have a longer explosion duration than what we see. The animation used here is the same for the power bomb in Super Metroid. Again, we see this in Metroid: Zero Mission. Same animation for both the power bomb and this explosion. We also know that an explosion from 3.01 kilotons of TNT is going to leave one hell of a cloud and probably a longer duration of a fireball than what we see here. The point is, no one has demonstrated the ability to withstand a nuclear explosion on the roster, so it'd be a risk on their part.

 

[Munomario777]

This is the same power bomb Samus uses in Metroid: Other M. The former game was made in 1994, the latter was 2010. To address any doubt on the explosion's duration, observe the following. I think a research station as large as that would have a longer explosion duration than what we see. The animation used here is the same for the power bomb in Super Metroid. Again, we see this in Metroid: Zero Mission. Same animation for both the power bomb and this explosion. We also know that an explosion from 3.01 kilotons of TNT is going to leave one hell of a cloud and probably a longer duration of a fireball than what we see here. The point is, no one has demonstrated the ability to withstand a nuclear explosion on the roster, so it'd be a risk on their part.

Those still seem to only last about a second, so Samus will still be vulnerable. Granted, the power bomb will cover a large area, so the opponent will need to cover that ground quickly if they want to capitalize on this (not to mention the speed booster).

 

[Crystanium]

Those still seem to only last about a second, so Samus will still be vulnerable. Granted, the power bomb will cover a large area, so the opponent will need to cover that ground quickly if they want to capitalize on this (not to mention the speed booster).

I think anyone with common sense would hightail it out of there.

 

[Munomario777]

I think anyone with common sense would hightail it out of there.

I meant after the explosion.

 

[Crystanium]

I meant after the explosion.

Perhaps, if they know how long it'll take to clear. Because no one will know what Samus is doing or what a morph ball is, she can surprise them this way. Annnd, now I'm looking up "close to explosion" on YouTube. Here's a 1 kiloton bomb.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Well you can argue the psychic characters would know. Mewtwo, Shulk, Ness, Palutena. Lucas and Lucario I'm less sure on. Probably only matters for the first four anyway. Sonic might just have enough reaction time to do something with the few seconds of vulnerability even without precognition but that's debatable if he figures it out quickly enough. Personally doubt it. Kirby series characters? Yeah they aren't gonna have the intelligence, speed, or information to capitalize on it. Pit is iffy on whether he would get any foreknowledge based on whether you allow him Palutena's powers.

 

[Munomario777]

I think Sonic would be able to pull it off. His quills can sense danger, so when they stop sending danger, that's his cue to strike. Three seconds is quite a long time when you move at Sonic's speed. As I've said in the past, Sonic will be able to reach his opponent in less than .01 seconds, so that leaves him a good amount of time to react. Of course, this would only happen if Sonic didn't OHKO Samus with the initial Mach 5.5+ ramming attack.

Pit doesn't get Palutena's help, since that would be ally assistance.

 

[Crystanium]

Well you can argue the psychic characters would know. Mewtwo, Shulk, Ness, Palutena. Lucas and Lucario I'm less sure on. Probably only matters for the first four anyway. Sonic might just have enough reaction time to do something with the few seconds of vulnerability even without precognition but that's debatable if he figures it out quickly enough. Personally doubt it. Kirby series characters? Yeah they aren't gonna have the intelligence, speed, or information to capitalize on it. Pit is iffy on whether he would get any foreknowledge based on whether you allow him Palutena's powers.

You know, I actually think Pit can fly in the supersonic range, not just burst supersonic. Check this out. As Pit is flying away, you can kind of see the Mach cone, but after that thing flies out of Lunar Sanctum, we have a close-up of Pit flying and we can see this cone even more. Pit barely escapes an explosion as well. I'm not sure how fast that explosion is. Also, I think Pit should be given Palutena's powers just like how the Hylians and Gerudo are given god-given powers.

 

[Munomario777]

You know, I actually think Pit can fly in the supersonic range, not just burst supersonic. Check this out. As Pit is flying away, you can kind of see the Mach cone, but after that thing flies out of Lunar Sanctum, we have a close-up of Pit flying and we can see this cone even more. Pit barely escapes an explosion as well. I'm not sure how fast that explosion is. Also, I think Pit should be given Palutena's powers just like how the Hylians and Gerudo are given god-given powers.

Pit is sort of in space (a vacuum), so I don't think he'd be able to generate a mach cone in the first place. It's likely just a visual effect.

In order to determine if deities and such should be able to help out, we'd need to establish where exactly this arena is. If it's not in any character's universe (which I believe we agreed on back when we were debating about ether and all that), then the gods of those universes shouldn't be able to contact the character, or help them out. Unless, of course, they've been shown to do so.

 

[monzer]

Pit is sort of in space (a vacuum), so I don't think he'd be able to generate a mach cone in the first place. It's likely just a visual effect.

In order to determine if deities and such should be able to help out, we'd need to establish where exactly this arena is. If it's not in any character's universe (which I believe we agreed on back when we were debating about ether and all that), then the gods of those universes shouldn't be able to contact the character, or help them out. Unless, of course, they've been shown to do so.

What If Pit is going against Palutina? Do we assume that the Palutina that Pit is fighting is a differnt Palutina?

 

[Munomario777]

What If Pit is going against Palutina? Do we assume that the Palutina that Pit is fighting is a differnt Palutina?

As I said, if we're still going with what we said earlier, then Pit doesn't get Palutena's help in the first place. (Unless Palutena has helped Pit from an alternate universe before.)

 

[Crystanium]

Pit is sort of in space (a vacuum), so I don't think he'd be able to generate a mach cone in the first place. It's likely just a visual effect.

In order to determine if deities and such should be able to help out, we'd need to establish where exactly this arena is. If it's not in any character's universe (which I believe we agreed on back when we were debating about ether and all that), then the gods of those universes shouldn't be able to contact the character, or help them out. Unless, of course, they've been shown to do so.

In a true vacuum, sure, but even if it's just likely a visual effect, it's still telling us that Pit is moving at supersonic speed because that's what the visual effect would demonstrate.

I was under the impression that we were allowing blessings from gods and goddesses, meaning it's part of them. Unless you're going to deny the Hylians and Gerudo their Triforce piece.

Also, I finally managed to figure out how much gravity is increased from battling Nightmare in Metroid: Other M. It took Samus 3.336 seconds to drop from the top part of Nightmare's room to the ground. I tested this three times. That was the lowest and last attempt. The distance is 54.58723488 meters. Under the extreme gravity, it took 1.404 seconds for Samus to drop to the ground from the top. 54.58723488 meters / 1.404 seconds^2 = 38.8797969230769231 m/s^2, or 3.96 times Earth's gravity. That's pretty cool, although with the shinespark, Samus would experience 69.65 g.

 

[Munomario777]

In a true vacuum, sure, but even if it's just likely a visual effect, it's still telling us that Pit is moving at supersonic speed because that's what the visual effect would demonstrate.

Well, if we're basing this off of what a mach cone would act like, and mach cones cannot exist in a vacuum, then the visual effect likely isn't a mach cone, and if it is, it's different from ones in real life (real life mach cones cannot form in a vacuum).

I was under the impression that we were allowing blessings from gods and goddesses.

Well, if the arena is in a different universe from the fighters' homeworlds, then I don't see that working out. Of course, things like Ganondorf's Triforce of Power would still work, as a god/goddess doesn't need to actively do something for the item to take effect; same thing goes with the Master Sword and such.

Also, I finally managed to figure out how much gravity is increased from battling Nightmare in Metroid: Other M. It took Samus 3.336 seconds to drop from the top part of Nightmare's room to the ground. I tested this three times. That was the lowest and last attempt. The distance is 54.58723488 meters. Under the extreme gravity, it took 1.404 seconds for Samus to drop to the ground from the top. 54.58723488 meters / 1.404 seconds^2 = 38.8797969230769231 m/s^2, or 3.96 times Earth's gravity. That's pretty cool, although with the shinespark, Samus would experience 69.65 g.

Interesting.

 

[Muster]

It seems that he was dodging the time freezing itself, implying that it's some sort of concentrated beam or something. Chaos Control isn't.

When do Shulk's attacks destroy a universe?

I didn't bother to read your whole post, but i noticed these two points and have two cents to throw around

The whole time freeze thing isn't a beam or whatever, he stops time and then attacks for a random amount of turns (these also stop some of your attacks and freezes the music), and because ness is a magical psychic kid or whatever, he can actually dodge these attacks, I had just played through moonside and at times i would dodge halfway through what sometimes is a 4 turn time stop. (I also recommend you go play earthbound if you haven't)

Shulk Creates a new universe at the end of Xenoblade. Creation takes more energy than destruction, he destroyed old universe but kept people alive blah blah blah.

 

[Munomario777]

I didn't bother to read your whole post, but i noticed these two points and have two cents to throw around

The whole time freeze thing isn't a beam or whatever, he stops time and then attacks for a random amount of turns (these also stop some of your attacks and freeze the music), and because ness is a magical psychic kid or whatever, he can actually dodge these attacks, I had just played through moonside and at times i would dodge halfway through what sometimes is a 4 turn time stop. (I also recommend you go play earthbound if you haven't)

When I watch the video, I see the clock enemy using a time freezing move, and Ness dodging an attack. I don't see the clock enemy attacking for a random amount of turns, and Ness dodging those attacks.

By the way, if it only stops "some" of your attacks, then I don't think it exactly constitutes as freezing you in time.

Shulk Creates a new universe at the end of Xenoblade.

With Alvis's help.

Creation takes more energy than destruction, he destroyed old universe but kept people alive blah blah blah.

I see it as not destroying the old universe and then creating a new one, but rather rearranging what was already there.

 

[Muster]

When I watch the video, I see the clock enemy using a time freezing move, and Ness dodging an attack. I don't see the clock enemy attacking for a random amount of turns, and Ness dodging those attacks.

Then play the game. The time stop can happen for a random amount of turns (actions the clock takes in the stopped time) and that time it was a single turn.

By the way, if it only stops "some" of your attacks, then I don't think it exactly constitutes as freezing you in time.

You can attack it before it stops time, but all attacks that would happen after are negated for that turn.

With Alvis's help.

I see it as not destroying the old universe and then creating a new one, but rather rearranging what was already there.

Alvis is just a program that shulk can operate, really.
The universe needs to have been recreated because the old one was at the end of its life-cycle.

 

[Munomario777]

Then play the game. The time stop can happen for a random amount of turns (actions the clock takes in the stopped time) and that time it was a single turn.

The clock didn't attack at all (like he would during the time freeze), leading me to believe that time was never frozen in the first place.

You can attack it before it stops time, but all attacks that would happen after are negated for that turn.

Ah, I see.

Alvis is just a program that shulk can operate, really.

A sentient one, which makes him an ally.

The universe needs to have been recreated because the old one was at the end of its life-cycle.

That doesn't necessitate destroying and then creating everything.