Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[monzer]

They aren't that much different than the skillsets given to other Smash characters like Falcon and Jigglypuff compared to their own home games. Also, the Find Mii stage is their official stage and that literally has the game's title as its name. It's also the closest thing they have to a game with a plot/canon. Not even Smash gives them any canon plot, so if we're looking for feats, this is the place to do it.

Otherwise, if we're using Smash canon, they're just trophies/toys like ROB, right?

Actually, there are a lot of other Mii plaza games. if Mii plaza gtames are canon the the Mii's universe, we should look into all of those games to see what they did in those other games.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Ok Dryn, I will stop with the off-topic chatter for now.

I haven't seen Shulk dodge things moving at a car's speed, so I don't see the issue here.

How exactly will he defeat the opponent without attacking?

He has dodged fast moving beams, and that is good enough for me.

Wait for the opponent to slip up and then punish.

They literally just get scared away and leave. Anyway, I just think the Miis should just be assumed to be a generic person with the weapons they have in smash.

That’s how I treat them.

That should put them sort of high, but not in a tier with guys like Mewtwo or Ness.

Powerful psychics vs powerful Starfighters, I can see why you would have doubts.

 

[Munomario777]

He has dodged fast moving beams, and that is good enough for me.

How fast?

Wait for the opponent to slip up and then punish.

That involves attacking.

 

[monzer]

Powerful psychics vs powerful Star-fighters, I can see why you would have doubts.

Ness in omnipresent to an extent, so I'm pretty sure he could take out the star-fighters. I'm not sure about Mewtwo but i think he has a slight advantage because of trick room.

How fast?

Shulk is from an RPG, he starts out at normal human agility but by the end his stat is much, much higher, he can oviously dodge a car.

I'm about 20% done with the matchup chart.

 

[Spak]

Mewtwo is the strongest.

Pick them up with your telekinetic powers, throw them into the blast zone, and you're good. If he can carry a Gyrados and throw him against the wall with no issue, he can pick up anyone in Smash.

 

[Munomario777]

Mewtwo is the strongest.

Pick them up with your telekinetic powers, throw them into the blast zone, and you're good. If he can carry a Gyrados and throw him against the wall with no issue, he can pick up anyone in Smash.

There isn't exactly a "blast zone" in these battles; more like a concrete wall.

Also, welcome to the thread!

 

[Kirby Dragons]

• Neither of those seem comparable to resetting the universe.
• And? It's not nearly as large scale as resetting the universe.
• What do you mean, "how?"

• Point?
• Since when does a large scale of something = an energy blast?
• How did you get the conclusion that he did those things?

• Being called a god means nothing. The Monados control ether (as stated multiple times throughout the story), so we can safely assume that this is a form of ether manipulation.
• Didn't it go outwards? The entire universe is what it's controlling, so if the blast spread out to the entire universe, I see no issue.

• Being called a god definitely means something. It's never stated that the Monados can only control ether.
  
• If I want to control the contents of a sandwich, would I put my hands in the middle of them and move them outwards?

Constantly as in, without stopping.

His opponent would still be able to escape easily, he isn't that fast, and his opponent will likely be at a distance. They'd also likely have another method of countering him, including plain durability.

• By definition, "universe" includes everything, including Zanza.
• Prove this.
• If Alvis never changed forms, then I see even less reason for them to be separate. Artificial intelligence on that level still makes him an ally.

• So if you destroy me, you destroy a universe? Also, Zanza existed before the universe, so he's not a part of it or anything.
  
• Prove what?
  
• What? Alvis did change forms. The only thing he does with the "artificial intelligence" is talking, that doesn't seem like much of an ally. Ally is defined as a "person or organization", and Alvis is neither.

Which have nothing to do with resetting universes.

Point?

...via ether manipulation.

When is that stated?

Ether manipulation is the only thing that the Monado has done that is similar to resetting a universe.

Alvis talks about Shulk helping the beings of the universe evolve or crumble. How is that ether manipulation?

Wait, really? Aside from Paper Mario being an alternate canon, the Pixls count as allies (in my book anyway).

I thought he got them. The Wisps would work here too, though.

He also informs Shulk that he has to tell him his "wish".

Which also isn't any sort of ally assistance.

The universe is made of ether.

Monados are universal swords, so resetting the universe is based off of that function.

 

[Munomario777]

• Point?
• Since when does a large scale of something = an energy blast?
• How did you get the conclusion that he did those things?

• Ether manipulation is similar to resetting the universe (they only really differ in terms of scale), and the Monado performed both, so we can assume that the universe reset is a form of ether manipulation.
• First, tell me how the energy blast disproves the reset being a form of energy manipulation.
• He expresses his own thoughts.

• Being called a god definitely means something. It's never stated that the Monados can only control ether.
  
• If I want to control the contents of a sandwich, would I put my hands in the middle of them and move them outwards?

• Being a god definitely means something; in this case, it's authority. Is it ever stated that the Monados can control something besides ether, and if so, when?
• It depends on how exactly you "control" the sandwich. If you're doing it from the inside (which is equivalent to Shulk, the Monados, etc being inside the universe, then yes, that seems logical.

His opponent would still be able to escape easily, he isn't that fast, and his opponent will likely be at a distance.

He's pretty fast in the clip.

They'd also likely have another method of countering him, including plain durability.

Who here has durability exceeding that of a castle wall?

• So if you destroy me, you destroy a universe? Also, Zanza existed before the universe, so he's not a part of it or anything.
  
• Prove what?
  
• What? Alvis did change forms. The only thing he does with the "artificial intelligence" is talking, that doesn't seem like much of an ally. Ally is defined as a "person or organization", and Alvis is neither.

• No, I don't see where you got that from. A wheel could exist before a car, but when it's attached to the rest of the car, it becomes part of the car.
• That he's the green energy.
• "Person" in this instance means anything that's alive. Otherwise, Tails doesn't count as an ally because he's a fox. Ally also means an intelligent/sentient/whatever able to do something of use without the involvement or assistance of the main character. Shulk didn't need to help Alvis reset the universe (besides wishing for him to do so), so he's an ally.

Point?

See above.

When is that stated?

It's a logical conclusion. The Monados are known to manipulate and reshape ether, and the universe is made of ether, so resetting the universe is likely a form of the aforementioned ether reshaping ability.

Alvis talks about Shulk helping the beings of the universe evolve or crumble. How is that ether manipulation?

How is that related to the Monado?

I thought he got them. The Wisps would work here too, though.

The Wisps are only useful when Sonic fuses with them to use their Color Powers; they're essentially a living power-up. The Pixls, on the other hand, are allies; they do their functions without Mario being involved other than a command.

Which also isn't any sort of ally assistance.

However, it implies that Alvis is simply being told by Shulk to reset the universe, which is.

Monados are universal swords, so resetting the universe is based off of that function.

When are they stated to be "universal"? The universe is made of ether, so this would be in line with ether manipulation.

 

[Crystanium]

Monados can do things that aren't controlling ether, like the Monado Arts.

That's an answer to a question, but it doesn't prove that the universe wasn't reset by the use of ether.

The Monado can affect universes, as its function is to be a universal sword, and it creates blasts that reset the universe they touch.

A universal sword only addresses one universe. An omniversal sword would be entirely different. Again, if you're the CEO (god) of a car company (universe), you don't have control over other car companies (omniverse). This universe they're in is one made of ether.

None of these talk about how the Monado can only control ether.

I never said the Monado can only control ether, although in order for these other things to be possible, ether is a prerequisite, considering the very existence of everything relies on it. I can't imagine anyone being able to use a battle art if they're not even alive. These quotes do prove that ether is willed to alter the universe in a significant way. Even Alvis' comment about how the Monado can have the power to control the very fabric of of the universe, probably foreshadowing the end of the game where Alvis is involved in the resetting of the universe.

If you looked above, you would have seen something.

That would be?

The Pixls can communicate with Mario, making them conscious and aware, but he can still use those here. The only thing Alvis was really saying to Shulk was that he has the power, and also the history of the Monado. Those things don't seem like any sort of ally assistance.

I wasn't aware of Mario using Pixls.

None of the quotes talk about how the Monado only does things that are controlling ether. The thing that Shulk did was recreate the universe without gods, so ether wouldn't really come into play there.

Except it would. Alvis and Zanza make that quite clear.

 

[monzer]

@Dryn
Shulk is made of ether, so he should be able to use his powers. I doubt he would be able to use his universe busting powers,but he should be able to use all of his other powers.

 

[Munomario777]

@Dryn
Shulk is made of ether, so he should be able to use his powers. I doubt he would be able to use his universe busting powers,but he should be able to use all of his other powers.

He could do things that affect himself, but he couldn't manipulate/sense/do anything with the opponent or the arena, since they're not made of ether.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn
Shulk is made of ether, so he should be able to use his powers. I doubt he would be able to use his universe busting powers,but he should be able to use all of his other powers.

I'm not denying any of this in the same way I wouldn't deny Darth Vader to use the Force. I wouldn't expect it to be used on others, but he'd be able to use certain powers that could buff him.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Actually, there are a lot of other Mii plaza games. if Mii plaza gtames are canon the the Mii's universe, we should look into all of those games to see what they did in those other games.

That's a good point! I'm sure their ability to... collect puzzle pieces and do gardening will be a huge asset to their battle worth! (It would make them successful members of the Resident Evil cast at least!) Seriously though, unfortunately for the Miis, none of the non-Find Mii games have much in the way of battle prowess.

Also, in Smash Canon, technically all of the fighers are plastic trophies being manipulated to fight in the imagination of a kid. You could certainly argue that the Miis are capable weapon specialists in Smash Canon though. It depends on how you view Smash Canon and whether you'd consider that 'legal' for this debate. It's just not a view I'd personally put much stock into.

----
And to officially weigh in on the Shulk debate:
It's all up to interpretation. Depending on how you see the battlefield/power level comparisons working, you can make a compelling argument in both directions. I certainly see Muno's and Dryn's point about ether not being something present in the 'battlefield' and they have a -very- strong argument for it not being present in the other fighters.

However, I personally see ether as basically being akin to 'magic' with just a more indepth explanation. And I hate the idea of penalizing a fighter for giving us MORE information about how their universe works (that's what keeps happening to Samus, since most of her abilities are grounded in actual science, it appears as if her abilities have more concrete 'limits', whereas a character like Palutena or Mewtwo is more nebulous in how their abilities work so people just kneejerk that they can do anything...)

So I'm personally on the side of just allowing ether to exist in everything akin to how 'magic' works and therefore allow Shulk the full ether manipulation powers associated with his Monado as such, though just shy of allowing him to fully reset an entire universe since he likely needs Alvis' processing power to do something of that scope. Probably still puts him at the top since he can just will his opponent into a state of defeat. Or if you don't allow him to directly manipulate his opponents due to scruples (or lack of ether), he can just will the environment around them into a state where the character is defeated.

Allowing any less ether permeation than that would make Shulk drop a few levels. So that gives me roughly 4 interps that have Shulk as the top characters, with 3 that make him drop in tier, and 1 that puts him sub-ROB level.
Top Tier: (Interp where Shulk doesn't need Alvis or Ether to perform his universal resetting abilities; Full Ether+Alvis; Full Ether Permeation w/o Alvis; Ether Permeation but not in other fighters)
High Tier: (Interp where Shulk's very existence causes slow Ether Permeation; Shulk-only Ether and only able to use Ether abilities that effect himself like Visions and buffs; No Ether Abilities: Shulk is just a heavily-armored skilled swordsman and scientist)
sub-ROB Tier: (No Ether whatsoever and Shulk is sick, suffocating, or dead as soon as the battle starts...)

I feel like the canon favors him as the strongest, especially when I would give any of the other fighters similar allowances for their canon strength as what Shulk gets in his better interps. Shulk just happens to have more high-tier interps than most fighters.

But again, I'm not personally invested in trying to figure out which interp is the 'correct' one. More interested in debating the what-ifs using all possible interps.

 

[Spak]

Also, in Smash Canon, technically all of the fighers are plastic trophies being manipulated to fight in the imagination of a kid.

Or a doll (in 64).

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Ness is omnipresent to an extent, so I'm pretty sure he could take out the star-fighters. I'm not sure about Mewtwo but i think he has a slight advantage because of trick room.



Shulk is from an RPG, he starts out at normal human agility but by the end his stat is much, much higher, he can obviously dodge a car.

I'm about 20% done with the matchup chart.

If he is omnipresent then you can’t miss hitting him. I won’t consider using one random nameless NPC line under these circumstances (quick, someone call Ito).

I would imagine that he needs to get close to use Trick Room (not arena or world).

True.

Don't forget to post them so we can critique them.

Who here has durability exceeding that of a castle wall?

and co. can survive being struck by Black Dragon King Dheginsea’s breath attacks (https://youtu.be/Dp5jzpmLw2I?t=1365 at 22:45-22:58 and 23:29-23:47) which are noticeably more powerful than his son Kurthnaga’s castle wall destroying ones https://youtu.be/wUlYcQeLYHk?list=PL256DA9DF00FDFF81.

 

[Munomario777]

and co. can survive being struck by Black Dragon King Dheginsea’s breath attacks (https://youtu.be/Dp5jzpmLw2I?t=1365 at 22:45-22:58 and 23:29-23:47) which are noticeably more powerful than his son Kurthnaga’s castle wall destroying ones https://youtu.be/wUlYcQeLYHk?list=PL256DA9DF00FDFF81.

There's much less building up of energy in the first link.

 

[monzer]

There's much less building up of energy in the first link.

Attacks in fire emblem don't have charge. Plus I'm pretty sure Dheginsea is fought mid game, meaning they will becom much stronger later on.

If he is omnipresent then you can’t miss hitting him. I won’t consider using one random nameless NPC line under these circumstances (quick, someone call Ito).

I geuss that counts, Ness still took hits from Gygas, who in pretty sure was a planet buster.

I would imagine that he needs to get close to use Trick Room (not arena or world).

There isn't really any specific citing of the range of trick room, but Foz or Falco would enter the range if they appoach him.

Don't forget to post them so we can critique them.

Should I post each characters matchups individually, or just wait until the whole table is done?

 

[Munomario777]

Attacks in fire emblem don't have charge.

The one that tore down the castle wall does.

Plus I'm pretty sure Dheginsea is fought mid game, meaning they will becom much stronger later on.

Provide proof.

I geuss that counts, Ness still took hits from Gygas, who in pretty sure was a planet buster.

Does he "bust planets" with the same attacks he uses on Ness?

 

[monzer]

The one that tore down the castle wall does.

If no attacks in the game have charge exept for that one, I'd say it makes no sence for it to have charge.

Provide proof.

It was late game, I just checked.

Does he "bust planets" with the same attacks he uses on Ness?

No, but I'm pretty sure it was said that he was going to do it.

 

[Munomario777]

If no attacks in the game have charge exept for that one, I'd say it makes no sence for it to have charge.

Except the force behind said attack.

It was late game, I just checked.

M'kay.

No, but I'm pretty sure it was said that he was going to do it.

Which isn't solid proof.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

• Ether manipulation is similar to resetting the universe (they only really differ in terms of scale), and the Monado performed both, so we can assume that the universe reset is a form of ether manipulation.
• First, tell me how the energy blast disproves the reset being a form of energy manipulation.
• He expresses his own thoughts.

• Ether manipulation isn't similar to resetting the universe.
  
• Because we see clearly in the game that energy manipulation isn't a blast.
• Expressing thoughts ≠ doing "useful things".

• Being a god definitely means something; in this case, it's authority. Is it ever stated that the Monados can control something besides ether, and if so, when?
• It depends on how exactly you "control" the sandwich. If you're doing it from the inside (which is equivalent to Shulk, the Monados, etc being inside the universe, then yes, that seems logical).

• He was just called the god of a universe; more than authority. That isn't stated, but I don't see your point.
• I'm not inside the sandwich.

He's pretty fast in the clip.

Exactly how fast?

Who here has durability exceeding that of a castle wall?

• No, I don't see where you got that from. A wheel could exist before a car, but when it's attached to the rest of the car, it becomes part of the car.
• That he's the green energy.
• "Person" in this instance means anything that's alive. Otherwise, Tails doesn't count as an ally because he's a fox. Ally also means an intelligent/sentient/whatever able to do something of use without the involvement or assistance of the main character. Shulk didn't need to help Alvis reset the universe (besides wishing for him to do so), so he's an ally.

• You said that people were universes. The wheel isn't the car.
• He started talking.
• Machines aren't alive. Machines and their functions are allowed here.

It's a logical conclusion. The Monados are known to manipulate and reshape ether, and the universe is made of ether, so resetting the universe is likely a form of the aforementioned ether reshaping ability.

Allowing a species to evolve/corrupt isn't any sort of reshaping.

How is that related to the Monado?

It was the Monados that reset the universe.

The Wisps are only useful when Sonic fuses with them to use their Color Powers; they're essentially a living power-up.

Is Alvis not the same thing (although he's non-living)?

However, it implies that Alvis is simply being told by Shulk to reset the universe, which is.

The other way around. Alvis tells Shulk he can decide the fate of the universe.

When are they stated to be "universal"?

They turn their wielders into universal gods.

The universe is made of ether, so this would be in line with ether manipulation.

Alvis states that it's because Shulk's a god. Nobody says anything about it being ether manipulation there.

That's an answer to a question, but it doesn't prove that the universe wasn't reset by the use of ether.

Alvis' statement and the energy blast prove it.

A universal sword only addresses one universe. An omniversal sword would be entirely different. Again, if you're the CEO (god) of a car company (universe), you don't have control over other car companies (omniverse). This universe they're in is one made of ether.

A universal sword would address almost any universe, just not all at once. An omniversal sword would be able to address an omniverse. The CEO of a car company would have some authority around other car companies, even if they aren't the boss.

I never said the Monado can only control ether, although in order for these other things to be possible, ether is a prerequisite, considering the very existence of everything relies on it. I can't imagine anyone being able to use a battle art if they're not even alive. These quotes do prove that ether is willed to alter the universe in a significant way. Even Alvis' comment about how the Monado can have the power to control the very fabric of of the universe, probably foreshadowing the end of the game where Alvis is involved in the resetting of the universe.

I do agree that the universe is made of ether, but not that these things need ether to work. Alvis' comment wouldn't foreshadow the ending, because later in the game he talked about "evolution" and "corruption", things that aren't part of the universe's fabric. He also talked about how Shulk could reset the universe, because he was a god.

That would be?

"I agree that ether doesn't exist outside of Xenoblade, but not that Shulk can't reset the universe. We see that it was some sort of god blast that reset the universe, not ether manipulation. Shulk's Monados are really the reason why the universe was reset, and not that Alvis did all the work for him."

Except it would. Alvis and Zanza make that quite clear.

When do Alvis or Zanza talk about resetting the universe being due to ether manipulation?

 

[Munomario777]

• Ether manipulation isn't similar to resetting the universe.
  
• Because we see clearly in the game that energy manipulation isn't a blast.
• Expressing thoughts ≠ doing "useful things".

• He's manipulating ether.
• Then show me.
• Expressing thoughts = showing sentience.

• He was just called the god of a universe; more than authority. That isn't stated, but I don't see your point.
• I'm not inside the sandwich.

• Being a "god" can mean anything from raw power to plain authority.
• Shulk is inside the universe.

Exactly how fast?

As fast as you saw him go in the video.

Prove this, then.

• You said that people were universes. The wheel isn't the car.
• He started talking.
• Machines aren't alive. Machines and their functions are allowed here.

• No, I said people are parts of universes. Universes are everything in existence (within that universe), including people.
• That picture didn't do much to prove that.
• Unless they're sentient, like Alvis.

Allowing a species to evolve/corrupt isn't any sort of reshaping.

What are you talking about?

It was the Monados that reset the universe.

So, what's your point?

Is Alvis not the same thing (although he's non-living)?

No, because Shulk doesn't help reset the universe.

The other way around. Alvis tells Shulk he can decide the fate of the universe.

And Shulk commands Alvis to reset the universe.

They turn their wielders into universal gods.

When is this stated?

Alvis states that it's because Shulk's a god. Nobody says anything about it being ether manipulation there.

I see no disproof here; only a lack of evidence in a certain place.

Alvis' statement and the energy blast prove it.

You still haven't proved this.

A universal sword would address almost any universe, just not all at once. An omniversal sword would be able to address an omniverse. The CEO of a car company would have some authority around other car companies, even if they aren't the boss.

So if the CEO of Chevrolet walks into a KIA dealership and tells the manager there to give him a car for free, will he get a free car?

I do agree that the universe is made of ether, but not that these things need ether to work. Alvis' comment wouldn't foreshadow the ending, because later in the game he talked about "evolution" and "corruption", things that aren't part of the universe's fabric. He also talked about how Shulk could reset the universe, because he was a god.

Evolution and corruption (or creation and destruction, in broader terms) would be a result of Shulk's actions. He's destroying the old universe and creating a new one.

When do Alvis or Zanza talk about resetting the universe being due to ether manipulation?

Alvis talks about how the Monado can control ether, and how ether is the fabric of the universe. By resetting the universe, the Monado is controlling the fabric of the universe, or in other words, controlling ether.

 

[Crystanium]

Alvis' statement and the energy blast prove it.

How?

A universal sword would address almost any universe, just not all at once. An omniversal sword would be able to address an omniverse. The CEO of a car company would have some authority around other car companies, even if they aren't the boss.

So you're saying Ford has authority over Hyundai and vice versa. That's actually not the case. The CEO of Ford may have knowledge about cars, as would Hyundai, but anyone can have knowledge about cars and own a car, but not everyone can be the CEO of a car company or any other company.

I do agree that the universe is made of ether, but not that these things need ether to work. Alvis' comment wouldn't foreshadow the ending, because later in the game he talked about "evolution" and "corruption", things that aren't part of the universe's fabric. He also talked about how Shulk could reset the universe, because he was a god.

They do need ether in order for them to occur. Imagine a bird born without wings. Kind of hard to fly without wings. So it is with the arts. Without ether bringing the universe into existence, it'd be impossible for arts to be performed, as existence is a prerequisite of arts. As for Alvis, it'd be a foreshadow in that the universe was going to be reset again with Alvis involved.

The mention of evolution and corruption isn't relevant because again, the universe would need to exist for these to occur. This kind of reminds me of how the church fathers tried to answer how sin could enter the world if a perfect, holy god created it. It wasn't originally part of the universe, or so it's believed.

"I agree that ether doesn't exist outside of Xenoblade, but not that Shulk can't reset the universe. We see that it was some sort of god blast that reset the universe, not ether manipulation. Shulk's Monados are really the reason why the universe was reset, and not that Alvis did all the work for him."

(A) If ether brought the world into existence, (B) and if ether can be manipulated by the Monado, (C) then the world can be manipulated by the Monado. I've labeled them as A, B, and C. A and B are premises, and C is the conclusion. Tell me what you disagree with.

When do Alvis or Zanza talk about resetting the universe being due to ether manipulation?

They talk about having the ability to bend the universe and life to their will just by having mastery over the Monado. It's in the quotes I've cited above.

 

[monzer]

Except the force behind said attack.

It was done for dramatic effect. Attacks in fire emblem don't have charge.

Which isn't solid proof.

If Gygas wasn't going to destroy the world, there would be no point to the game.

 

[Munomario777]

It was done for dramatic effect. Attacks in fire emblem don't have charge.

Prove this.

If Gygas wasn't going to destroy the world, there would be no point to the game.

That is not solid proof.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

That is not solid proof.

Yeah, it is. The creators aren't going to lie to you by creating a false plot. Even if it isn't, there's also all of this.
http://s22.postimg.org/72erwss0h/Buzzbuzz_A_bee_I_am_not.png

http://s22.postimg.org/dqbdjebip/Buzzbuzz_I_m_from_10_years_in_the_future.png

http://s22.postimg.org/bx8gv2qc1/Buzzbuzz_In_the_future_all_is_devestation.png

http://s22.postimg.org/qf5o32hn5/Buzzbuzz_The_Universal_Cosmic_Destroyer.png

http://s22.postimg.org/658cnxgi9/Buzzbuzz_Sent_all_to_the_horror_of_eternal_dar.png

http://s23.postimg.org/ewslmzyuj/Magicant_Everything_in_the_Universe_will_be_de.png

http://s21.postimg.org/5tt56hbbr/Pokey_Waiting_to_be_burned_up_with_all_the_res.png

• He's manipulating ether.
• Then show me.
• Expressing thoughts = showing sentience.

• He isn't. He controls things that aren't ether.
• There's ether manipulation at 4:55, and it doesn't use that blast.
  
• What thoughts does he express in the first place?

• Being a "god" can mean anything from raw power to plain authority.
• Shulk is inside the universe.

• God: a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. Nothing about authority.
• Point?

As fast as you saw him go in the video.

How many MPH is that?

Prove this, then.

take barrages of attacks such as explosions and giant beams from other Pokemon.
take attacks from characters stronger than Bowser.
survived being squashed by a Saurian.

survived a continental attack from Ashera.
takes attacks from the King Statue.
has Falchion.
survive attacks from each other, and also powerful gods.
can survive gravity hundreds of times stronger than Earth's.
walked through a microwave chamber that vaporizes people.
survived an explosion that could destroy the moon.
was speedblitzed into the moon.
survived a crash landing.
takes punches from Donkey Kong.
take attacks from Grima.
survived an explosion the size of a mountain, while he was injured.
takes attacks from giant mechs.
's chest was punched through, and he lived.
survived attacks from Zanza, who can destroy universes.

• No, I said people are parts of universes. Universes are everything in existence (within that universe), including people.
• That picture didn't do much to prove that.
• Unless they're sentient, like Alvis.

• Doing something on a part of the universe doesn't mean you affect that universe as a whole. Yoshi can eat a Goomba, but he's not doing anything to affect the universe, instead a Goomba.
• Didn't you watch the video of the ending?
• Sentient: able to perceive or feel things. Didn't see anything about being alive.

What are you talking about?

Alvis said that Shulk could let the beings of the universe evolve or corrupt, and ether manipulation wouldn't be able to cover that.

So, what's your point?

That Shulk can reset the universe, because of Monados.

No, because Shulk doesn't help reset the universe.

Sonic doesn't help the Wisps either.

And Shulk commands Alvis to reset the universe.

When?

When is this stated?

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Monado_III

I see no disproof here; only a lack of evidence in a certain place.

I just gave evidence.

You still haven't proved this.

Yeah, because it's sort of impossible to prove your proof.

So if the CEO of Chevrolet walks into a KIA dealership and tells the manager there to give him a car for free, will he get a free car?

Quite possibly.

Evolution and corruption (or creation and destruction, in broader terms) would be a result of Shulk's actions. He's destroying the old universe and creating a new one.

Shulk's actions, but not ether manipulation.

Alvis talks about how the Monado can control ether, and how ether is the fabric of the universe. By resetting the universe, the Monado is controlling the fabric of the universe, or in other words, controlling ether.

Alvis also talks about how Shulk can reset the universe because he's a god.

How?

Alvis is talking about how Shulk is a god, and can change the universe because of it.

So you're saying Ford has authority over Hyundai and vice versa. That's actually not the case. The CEO of Ford may have knowledge about cars, as would Hyundai, but anyone can have knowledge about cars and own a car, but not everyone can be the CEO of a car company or any other company.

They wouldn't necessarily be the CEO, but I could see the employees of a car company following the instructions of a CEO from a different company.

Regardless, it's not like the fight universe has a god in the first place, so that would leave Shulk a place to step in (assuming he actually needed one).

They do need ether in order for them to occur. Imagine a bird born without wings. Kind of hard to fly without wings. So it is with the arts. Without ether bringing the universe into existence, it'd be impossible for arts to be performed, as existence is a prerequisite of arts. As for Alvis, it'd be a foreshadow in that the universe was going to be reset again with Alvis involved.

Doing things like "attacking from a distance" (Monado Purge) or "speeding somebody up" (Monado Speed) aren't ether manipulation, even if they do need ether to exist. Right before the universe is reset, Alvis puts out more statements that pretty much outdate his earlier ones about ether.

The mention of evolution and corruption isn't relevant because again, the universe would need to exist for these to occur. This kind of reminds me of how the church fathers tried to answer how sin could enter the world if a perfect, holy god created it. It wasn't originally part of the universe, or so it's believed.

Shulk would be able to control those things, seeing as he is a god. Shulk would be in an existing universe in these fights, so the things could occur.

(A) If ether brought the world into existence, (B) and if ether can be manipulated by the Monado, (C) then the world can be manipulated by the Monado. I've labeled them as A, B, and C. A and B are premises, and C is the conclusion. Tell me what you disagree with.

A. Ether didn't bring the world into existence, but instead, the things are only made from it. Sandwiches are made from bread and such, but bread didn't bring it into existence. The Earl of Sandwich did.

They talk about having the ability to bend the universe and life to their will just by having mastery over the Monado. It's in the quotes I've cited above.

Zanza's quote is the only one that talks about bending life. The quote is talking about the creatures bowing down to the Monado's user, because he can control them. It doesn't speak of the things that Alvis mentions later in the game, about doing to the life.

 

[monzer]

Prove this

.

try to find one attack in Fire Emblem that is stated to get more powerful when it is charged up.

take barrages of attacks such as explosions and giant beams from other Pokemon.
take attacks from characters stronger than Bowser.
survived being squashed by a Saurian.

survived a continental attack from Ashera.
takes attacks from the King Statue.
has Falchion.
survive attacks from each other, and also powerful gods.
can survive gravity hundreds of times stronger than Earth's.
walked through a microwave chamber that vaporizes people.
survived an explosion that could destroy the moon.
was speedblitzed into the moon.
survived a crash landing.
takes punches from Donkey Kong.
take attacks from Grima.
survived an explosion the size of a mountain, while he was injured.
takes attacks from giant mechs.
's chest was punched through, and he lived.
survived attacks from Zanza, who can destroy universes.

I would add to the list.

: Had to be killed by several Meteors.
: Has tons of giant robots.
: Survives high-speed car crashes.
: Survives hits from King K. Rule, who is stronger than DK.
: Survives planet(or possible universe) busting attacks.
: Survives hits from Grima and whoever the main antagonist in his game is.
: Can take tons of attacks from Pokemon.

Also, here is the "score" of all characters I've done matchups for.
Every Curbstomp= 2 points
Every Win= 1 piont
Every Tie or close match= 0 points
Every Loss= -1 points
Every Curpstomped= -2 points

:10
:8
:-44
:48
:14
:84
:80
:3
:10
:-40
:-78
:51
:51
:76
:-110
:16
:57
:-47

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah, it is. The creators aren't going to lie to you by creating a false plot.

When do the creators state that Giygas can destroy universes (or whatever it was)?

Even if it isn't, there's also all of this.
http://s22.postimg.org/72erwss0h/Buzzbuzz_A_bee_I_am_not.png

http://s22.postimg.org/dqbdjebip/Buzzbuzz_I_m_from_10_years_in_the_future.png

http://s22.postimg.org/bx8gv2qc1/Buzzbuzz_In_the_future_all_is_devestation.png

http://s22.postimg.org/qf5o32hn5/Buzzbuzz_The_Universal_Cosmic_Destroyer.png

http://s22.postimg.org/658cnxgi9/Buzzbuzz_Sent_all_to_the_horror_of_eternal_dar.png

http://s23.postimg.org/ewslmzyuj/Magicant_Everything_in_the_Universe_will_be_de.png

http://s21.postimg.org/5tt56hbbr/Pokey_Waiting_to_be_burned_up_with_all_the_res.png

Is the bee guy actually a time traveler (if so, provide proof)? What is the second to last image from exactly?

• He isn't. He controls things that aren't ether.
• There's ether manipulation at 4:55, and it doesn't use that blast.
  
• What thoughts does he express in the first place?

• Such as?
• This is not proof that energy blasts cannot occur as a result of universe-scale ether manipulation.
• For one thing, he disobeys Shulk.

• God: a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. Nothing about authority.
• Point?

• Power: delegated authority; authority granted to a person or persons in a particular office or capacity
• The analogy is no longer accurate, because Shulk is inside the universe, and you're not inside the sandwich.

How many MPH is that?

If you're interested, you could calculate it for yourself.

take barrages of attacks such as explosions and giant beams from other Pokemon.
take attacks from characters stronger than Bowser.
survived being squashed by a Saurian.
survived a continental attack from Ashera.
takes attacks from the King Statue.

Have these attacks destroyed castle walls?

has Falchion.

How much force has it withstood?

survive attacks from each other, and also powerful gods.

Prove the force of these attacks.

can survive gravity hundreds of times stronger than Earth's.

That's a typo.

walked through a microwave chamber that vaporizes people.

Bowser isn't vaporizing people with microwaves.

survived an explosion that could destroy the moon.
was speedblitzed into the moon.

When?

survived a crash landing.
takes punches from Donkey Kong.
take attacks from Grima.
survived an explosion the size of a mountain, while he was injured.
takes attacks from giant mechs.
's chest was punched through, and he lived.

Prove the force of these attacks.

survived attacks from Zanza, who can destroy universes.

And yet, he didn't when he attacked Shulk.

• Doing something on a part of the universe doesn't mean you affect that universe as a whole. Yoshi can eat a Goomba, but he's not doing anything to affect the universe, instead a Goomba.
• Didn't you watch the video of the ending?
• Sentient: able to perceive or feel things. Didn't see anything about being alive.

• Let's backtrack a bit here. Your original point was, "[Zanza] isn't the universe, proving that Shulk can use his powers on things that aren't his universe." However, since the universe means everything by definition, then Zanza is a part of that, and thus made of ether.
  
• Watching other videos, I now see that the light is Alvis.
• I never said that sentient things are always alive.

Alvis said that Shulk could let the beings of the universe evolve or corrupt, and ether manipulation wouldn't be able to cover that.

Why not?

That Shulk can reset the universe, because of Monados.

And Monados manipulate ether.

Sonic doesn't help the Wisps either.

The Color Power transformations are only possible with Sonic present. (He also frees them from the capsules.)

When?

Right before the universe is reset, of course.

http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Monado_III

"With this blade, Shulk becomes a god." Shulk kills Zanza with the blade, so he becomes a god in Zanza's place. You could do that with any old god-killing sword.

I just gave evidence.

So because Alvis doesn't mention something, said something cannot be true...?

Yeah, because it's sort of impossible to prove your proof.

I'll await proof from your side.

Quite possibly.

Haha, that's quite funny.

Shulk's actions, but not ether manipulation.

Shulk's actions are a form of ether manipulation.

Alvis also talks about how Shulk can reset the universe because he's a god.

...in terms of authority.

View attachment 62743
Alvis is talking about how Shulk is a god, and can change the universe because of it.

...because of authority.

They wouldn't necessarily be the CEO, but I could see the employees of a car company following the instructions of a CEO from a different company.

Until you prove this, I won't pay any attention to it.

Regardless, it's not like the fight universe has a god in the first place, so that would leave Shulk a place to step in (assuming he actually needed one).

It would also leave the competitors a place to step in, in that case.

Doing things like "attacking from a distance" (Monado Purge) or "speeding somebody up" (Monado Speed) aren't ether manipulation, even if they do need ether to exist.

Then they still cannot be used here, if they can only be used with ether present.

Right before the universe is reset, Alvis puts out more statements that pretty much outdate his earlier ones about ether.

Such as?

Shulk would be able to control those things, seeing as he is a god.

...of a universe with ether present.

A. Ether didn't bring the world into existence, but instead, the things are only made from it. Sandwiches are made from bread and such, but bread didn't bring it into existence. The Earl of Sandwich did.

You can't have a sandwich without bread, and you can't have the Xenoblade universe without ether.

Dryn's (A) statement could be reworded as, "If the universe is made of ether".

Zanza's quote is the only one that talks about bending life. The quote is talking about the creatures bowing down to the Monado's user, because he can control them.

...because they're made of ether.

It doesn't speak of the things that Alvis mentions later in the game, about doing to the life.

Such as?

.

try to find one attack in Fire Emblem that is stated to get more powerful when it is charged up.

I found a charged fire breath attack that destroys a castle wall, and a non-charged version that doesn't even destroy a human.

I would add to the list.

: Had to be killed by several Meteors.

We're talking about who Bowser can and cannot kill. Bowser won't go against himself.

: Has tons of giant robots.

How does this amount to surviving attacks?

: Survives hits from King K. Rule, who is stronger than DK.
: Survives planet(or possible universe) busting attacks.
: Survives hits from Grima and whoever the main antagonist in his game is.
: Can take tons of attacks from Pokemon.

Prove the force of these attacks.

 

[monzer]

I found a charged fire breath attack that destroys a castle wall, and a non-charged version that doesn't even destroy a human.

Prove it was charged.

We're talking about who Bowser can and cannot kill. Bowser won't go against himself.

Bowser going against himself is still a matchcup

How does this amount to surviving attacks?

The robots are made of metal, Metal is more durable than stone. Giant robots are more durable than castle walls.

Prove the force of these attacks.

DK has been shown to knock the mood out of orbit. While he this was a fully charged punch with obvious momentum, this still amounts to something.

That bee thing literally came back in time to say that Gygas destroyed the world.

Grima was going to destroy the world.

Many of the strongest pokemon attacks involve explosions, tidal waves, or even time and space manipulation.

 

[Munomario777]

Prove it was charged.

It's charged in the video.

Bowser going against himself is still a matchcup

It will result in a tie.

The robots are made of metal, Metal is more durable than stone. Giant robots are more durable than castle walls.

You'll have to prove this.

DK has been shown to knock the mood out of orbit. While he this was a fully charged punch with obvious momentum, this still amounts to something.

The moon wasn't nearly as massive as the one in real life.

That bee thing literally came back in time to say that Gygas destroyed the world.

Is there any reason to trust him?

Grima was going to destroy the world.

Prove that he has the ability to do so, and prove that he was going to use the same attacks he used on the FE cast. (The same thing applies to Giygas.)

Many of the strongest pokemon attacks involve explosions, tidal waves, or even time and space manipulation.

Do they destroy castle walls?

 

[monzer]

It's charged in the video.

Prove that was charging

It will result in a tie.

Yes but leaving Bowser out of a list of character who have more durability than a castle wall doesn't make sense.

You'll have to prove this.

You want me to prove that refined metal is more durable than stone?

The moon wasn't nearly as massive as the one in real life.

It's still a feat.

Is there any reason to trust him?

Is there any reason to not trust him? The creator of the game put him in to explain the plot.

Prove that he has the ability to do so, and prove that he was going to use the same attacks he used on the FE cast. (The same thing applies to Giygas.)

He said he was going to. Why would the creators of the game lie on a major plot point?

Do they destroy castle walls?

Giant explosions destroy castle walls.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Well, to decide Bowser's strenght, we have to decide (or just tell me ):

-If Bowser gets any Grand Stars (which made him powerful in Galaxy 2)
-If Bowser gets Mario Bros. activating his adrealine (Giant Battles in Bowser's Inside Story)
-If he gets a Koopa Army (A crapton Mario bosses would certainly help)

I also have to add that the survivability of Bowser against the Meteors was when he had 1 Grand Star and after he was weakened by another battle (as the Meteor Battle in SMG2 was phase 2)

Take that as you will

EDIT: The better proof of Bowser's survivability was the fact he fell into a black hole AFTER the fight and still returned.

 

[Munomario777]

Prove that was charging

There was blue energy flying into his mouth.

Yes but leaving Bowser out of a list of character who have more durability than a castle wall doesn't make sense.

True.

You want me to prove that refined metal is more durable than stone?

It might be, but the mechs have weak spots.

It's still a feat.

It is.

Is there any reason to not trust him? The creator of the game put him in to explain the plot.

We don't know if he's actually from the future, do we?

He said he was going to. Why would the creators of the game lie on a major plot point?

When did the creators of the game say this?

Giant explosions destroy castle walls.

Prove that the Pokemon attacks can.

Well, to decide Bowser's strenght, we have to decide (or just tell me ):

-If Bowser gets any Grand Stars (which made him powerful in Galaxy 2)
-If Bowser gets Mario Bros. activating his adrealine (Giant Battles in Bowser's Inside Story)
-If he gets a Koopa Army (A crapton Mario bosses would certainly help)

I also have to add that the survivability of Bowser against the Meteors was when he had 1 Grand Star and after he was weakened by another battle (as the Meteor Battle in SMG2 was phase 2)

Take that as you will

EDIT: The better proof of Bowser's survivability was the fact he fell into a black hole AFTER the fight and still returned.

He doesn't get any of the three things you mentioned. Grand Stars aren't his, and the Mario Bros./army are allies.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

There was blue energy flying into his mouth.

True.

It might be, but the mechs have weak spots.

It is.

We don't know if he's actually from the future, do we?

When did the creators of the game say this?

Prove that the Pokemon attacks can.

He doesn't get any of the three things you mentioned. Grand Stars aren't his, and the Mario Bros./army are allies.

So why does Rosalina get her Black Hole Pillows then?

 

[Munomario777]

So why does Rosalina get her Black Hole Pillows then?

Because the Smash character is Rosalina and Luma. It's not Bowser and his army.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

There's much less building up of energy in the first link.

Good point, but Goldoa will not move.

Attacks in fire emblem don't have charge. Plus I'm pretty sure Dheginsea is fought mid game, meaning they will become much stronger later on.

I guess that counts, Ness still took hits from Giygas, who in pretty sure was a planet buster.

Should I post each characters matchups individually, or just wait until the whole table is done?

Spinning one’s weapon before landing a critical blow isn’t a charge now? Dheginsea is the third to last boss in Radiant Dawn, definitely not mid game material unlike say Septimus (the beasts will consume me!).

When does Giygas destroy planets, and his attacks are incomprehensible to the human mind so we can‘t determine anything with him (yes, I know this is a bit of a cop-out).

Individually, so we won’t be overwhelmed and it could drive traffic to the topic.

If Giygas wasn't going to destroy the world, there would be no point to the game.

You don’t have to explode a planet to destroy it in the eyes of the people living there. If a madman (like me) takes control of the earth’s entire nuclear arsenal and uses it, the world will effectively be destroyed even though it still exists.

can survive gravity hundreds of times stronger than Earth's.
crawled through a microwave chamber that vaporizes people.

Isn’t there some doubt on Samus’s gravity feat?

Fixed.

: Survives hits from Grima and whoever the main antagonist in his game is.

Also, here is the "score" of all characters I've done matchups for.
Every Curbstomp= 2 points
Every Win= 1 point
Every Tie or close match= 0 points
Every Loss= -1 points
Every Curpstomped= -2 points

:10
:8
:-44
:48
:14
:84
:80
:3
:10
:-40
:-78
:51
:51
:76
:-110
:16
:57
:-47

@ monzer Roy doesn’t canonically fight Grima and Roy’s main antagonist is this guy (warning: violence to women) https://youtu.be/HaO72ELpA5c.

Why give out negative points? Won’t giving out points for victories be enough?



@ monzer Don’t worry about Munomario777’s “prove the amount of force”, he will never be convinced. He can be rather ridiculous with his claims and demands.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

When do the creators state that Giygas can destroy universes (or whatever it was)?

It's the plot of the game, which the creators created.

Is the bee guy actually a time traveler (if so, provide proof)?

A person would know if he was from the future or not.

What is the second to last image from exactly?

Just a simple statement.

• Such as?
• This is not proof that energy blasts cannot occur as a result of universe-scale ether manipulation.
• For one thing, he disobeys Shulk.

• Evolution.
• Why would they? If I want to control a small sandwich, and then I want to control a much, much, much larger sandwich, would I use an energy blast? Also, it does prove it, because Zanza's attacks are universal.
  
• How exactly did he disobey?

• Power: delegated authority; authority granted to a person or persons in a particular office or capacity
• The analogy is no longer accurate, because Shulk is inside the universe, and you're not inside the sandwich.

• That definition doesn't apply; you can't have "delegated authority" over the forces of nature and such.
• My hands are the thing doing the manipulating, and they're in the sandwich.

If you're interested, you could calculate it for yourself.

I don't need to. If you want to prove Bowser could catch up, then you need to.

Have these attacks destroyed castle walls?

They destroy things more durable than castle walls, such as buildings or planets.

How much force has it withstood?

It doesn't withstand attacks.

Prove the force of these attacks.

There's Hades, who's the size of a mountain, and actually destroys mountains in his fights. There's also Medusa, who turns cities to rubble.

That's a typo.

I didn't see anything wrong.

Bowser isn't vaporizing people with microwaves.

Point?

When?

Wario Land: Shake It! and Yoshi's Island.

Prove the force of these attacks.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21833
DK's punches send enemies flying and knock them through buildings.
It's a mountain.
Grima destroyed entire continents casually.
Giant mechs can destroy buildings.

And yet, he didn't when he attacked Shulk.

He used the same Monados to destroy the universe and attack Shulk, and he didn't destroy it because he didn't attack the universe, but instead attacked Shulk's body. Proving, Shulk has universal durability, because he wasn't destroyed.

• Let's backtrack a bit here. Your original point was, "[Zanza] isn't the universe, proving that Shulk can use his powers on things that aren't his universe." However, since the universe means everything by definition, then Zanza is a part of that, and thus made of ether.
  
• Watching other videos, I now see that the light is Alvis.
• I never said that sentient things are always alive.

• Zanza isn't actually made of ether, however. He was created separately from the Xenoblade universe.
• So if something isn't alive, it's not an ally.

Why not?

Because evolution and corruption aren't made from ether.

And Monados manipulate ether.

Along with other things.

The Color Power transformations are only possible with Sonic present. (He also frees them from the capsules.)

Resetting the universe would only be possible with Shulk present.

Right before the universe is reset, of course.

Quote when he did it.

"With this blade, Shulk becomes a god." Shulk kills Zanza with the blade, so he becomes a god in Zanza's place. You could do that with any old god-killing sword.

"God killing" in the Monado lll means "it's strong enough to even kill gods", not "it's designed just for killing gods". The massive stat boost that it gives is the highest stat boost in the game (I believe), and it works against everyone that Shulk fights.

So because Alvis doesn't mention something, said something cannot be true...?

Since he mentioned something else instead, yes.

I'll await proof from your side.

I just gave some, and you're just ignoring it.

Haha, that's quite funny.

Haha, no it's not.

Shulk's actions are a form of ether manipulation.

So are walking, talking, equipping weapons, etc. a result of ether manipulation?

...in terms of authority.

...because of authority.

Gods use power, not authority.

It would also leave the competitors a place to step in, in that case.

In what case? Shulk is the only god here (other than Palutena, who's nowhere near his level).

Then they still cannot be used here, if they can only be used with ether present.

The ether they'd need is the Monado, which Shulk can carry with them.

Such as?

Saying that Shulk can control the universe because he's a god. It outdates saying the Monados can control the world because f ether manipulation.

...of a universe with ether present.

Evolution and corruption don't use ether.

You can't have a sandwich without bread, and you can't have the Xenoblade universe without ether.

Dryn's (A) statement could be reworded as, "If the universe is made of ether".

Well, all his statements combined don't prove that the reset at the end of the game was thanks to ether manipulation. That's like saying that since Mario uses a Fire Flower to throw fireballs, and he throws fireballs when using Ultra Flame, that he needs the Fire Flower to use Ultra Flame. Or that since Fox shoots lasers, and he shoots lasers when using his Arwing, that he needs the Arwing to shoot lasers. Or that since Samus shoots missiles, and she shoots missiles when using her Gunship, that she needs the Gunship to shoot missiles. Or that.....

...because they're made of ether.

Yeah. Shulk's options when he reset the universe weren't getting the creatures to bow down to him (because he can control them), so the quote wouldn't apply here.

Such as?

Making them corrupt or evolve.

 

[monzer]

Spinning one’s weapon before landing a critical blow isn’t a charge now?

Critical hits are based on luck, not charge though.

When does Giygas destroy planets, and his attacks are incomprehensible to the human mind so we can‘t determine anything with him (yes, I know this is a bit of a cop-out).

It was stated by a time traveler he destroyed the universe.

You don’t have to explode a planet to destroy it in the eyes of the people living there. If a madman (like me) takes control of the earth’s entire nuclear arsenal and uses it, the world will effectively be destroyed even though it still exists.

I guess, but it was also said he took out the universe. if someone is strong enough to do that, I'm pretty sure he'll at least be a planet buster.

Roy doesn’t canonically fight Grima and Roy’s main antagonist is this guy (warning: violence to women) https://youtu.be/HaO72ELpA5c.

I checked the wiki and doesn't seem as strong as the other antagonists.

Why give out negative points? Won’t giving out points for victories be enough?

Because the matchup chart includes includes losing matchups, and the list is based on the chart.

Don’t worry about Munomario777’s “prove the amount of force”, he will never be convinced. He can be rather ridiculous with his claims and demands.

@ Munomario777
Come to think of it, since when was it stated that the sonic game manual was canon?

There was blue energy flying into his mouth.

Why is that charge.

It might be, but the mechs have weak spots.

He has many mechs.

It is.

That's why has knock down a castle wall.

We don't know if he's actually from the future, do we?

Why would he not be from the future?

When did the creators of the game say this?

By making an important character say it.

Prove that the Pokemon attacks can.

They can kill rock pokemon.

Captain Falcon's matchups:
Curbstomp:

Win:

Tie:

Loss:

Curbstomped:

 

[Munomario777]

It's the plot of the game, which the creators created.

When does the plot say that Giygas can destroy the world?

A person would know if he was from the future or not.

A person could also be lying, or delusional.

Just a simple statement.

From whom, or what?

• Evolution.
• Why would they? If I want to control a small sandwich, and then I want to control a much, much, much larger sandwich, would I use an energy blast? Also, it does prove it, because Zanza's attacks are universal.
  
• How exactly did he disobey?

• The things that evolve are made of ether.
• Sandwiches aren't equivalent to the entirety of existence.
• Define "universal".
• By doing whatever made Shulk say, "How dare you disobey me!"

• That definition doesn't apply; you can't have "delegated authority" over the forces of nature and such.
• My hands are the thing doing the manipulating, and they're in the sandwich.

• You can have authority over Alvis, who has control over the forces of nature.
• So, what's your point?

I don't need to. If you want to prove Bowser could catch up, then you need to.

I'm not interested enough to be honest.

They destroy things more durable than castle walls, such as buildings or planets.

Provide a video of this.

It doesn't withstand attacks.

How much force has it been shown to protect Marth from, then?

There's Hades, who's the size of a mountain, and actually destroys mountains in his fights. There's also Medusa, who turns cities to rubble.

With the same attacks that hit Pit?

I didn't see anything wrong.

The planets' mass is a typo.

Point?

Immunity to microwaves =/= immunity to giant turtle people that can bust through castle walls with pure brute force.

Wario Land: Shake It! and Yoshi's Island.

Prove the force of the attack(s) from the former. The latter doesn't count, as protagonists not taking damage is a common phenomenon in the Yoshi's Island games. Mario can't get hurt there, but he's not invincible here.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21833

That's based on the aforementioned typo.

DK's punches send enemies flying and knock them through buildings.

Prove their force, and provide video evidence.

It's a mountain.

How large?

Grima destroyed entire continents casually.
Giant mechs can destroy buildings.

With the same attacks used on Pac-Man/Lucina/Robin?

He used the same Monados to destroy the universe and attack Shulk, and he didn't destroy it because he didn't attack the universe, but instead attacked Shulk's body. Proving, Shulk has universal durability, because he wasn't destroyed.

Shulk's body is part of the universe. I could use sword A to perform a high-speed slash and cut through a person, but I could also use that same sword to lightly tap someone else on the shoulder and not deal any damage. Does that mean that the latter person is more durable than the former?

• Zanza isn't actually made of ether, however. He was created separately from the Xenoblade universe.
• So if something isn't alive, it's not an ally.

• Prove that he's not made of ether.
• No, that's not the definition we're working with.

Because evolution and corruption aren't made from ether.

As aforementioned, the things that evolve are.

Along with other things.

Such as?

Resetting the universe would only be possible with Shulk present.

Why is that?

Quote when he did it.

"I wish for a world without gods!" (paraphrased)

"God killing" in the Monado lll means "it's strong enough to even kill gods", not "it's designed just for killing gods". The massive stat boost that it gives is the highest stat boost in the game (I believe), and it works against everyone that Shulk fights.

So, what does this have to do with becoming a god?

Since he mentioned something else instead, yes.

Which is?

I just gave some, and you're just ignoring it.

It's not convincing.

Haha, no it's not.

It's untrue, and I find it funny.

So are walking, talking, equipping weapons, etc. a result of ether manipulation?

No, I mean the action that is resetting the universe.

Gods use power, not authority.

Shulk uses authority.

In what case? Shulk is the only god here (other than Palutena, who's nowhere near his level).

Shulk isn't a god here, because he isn't a god of this universe.

The ether they'd need is the Monado, which Shulk can carry with them.

If they don't rely on ether being in the environment, they can be used.

Saying that Shulk can control the universe because he's a god. It outdates saying the Monados can control the world because f ether manipulation.

Having the Monado III makes people gods, and the Monado III uses ether manipulation.

Evolution and corruption don't use ether.

See above.

Well, all his statements combined don't prove that the reset at the end of the game was thanks to ether manipulation. That's like saying that since Mario uses a Fire Flower to throw fireballs, and he throws fireballs when using Ultra Flame, that he needs the Fire Flower to use Ultra Flame. Or that since Fox shoots lasers, and he shoots lasers when using his Arwing, that he needs the Arwing to shoot lasers. Or that since Samus shoots missiles, and she shoots missiles when using her Gunship, that she needs the Gunship to shoot missiles. Or that.....

Mario isn't using the Fire Flower to use Ultra Flame. Samus isn't using her gunship to shoot missiles. Fox isn't using his Arwing to shoot lasers. Shulk is using the Monado to reset the universe.

Yeah. Shulk's options when he reset the universe weren't getting the creatures to bow down to him (because he can control them), so the quote wouldn't apply here.

Umm... okay?

Making them corrupt or evolve.

See above.

Because the matchup chart includes includes losing matchups, and the list is based on the chart.

I think it'd be better to just include the amount of wins, losses, ties, curbstomps, et cetera.

@ Munomario777
Come to think of it, since when was it stated that the sonic game manual was canon?

When was it stated that it's not?

Why is that charge.

Because there's energy building up in his mouth, which he then releases to destroy the castle wall.

He has many mechs.

All of which have weak spots.

That's why has knock down a castle wall.

I don't see how something being "a feat" means that the character can knock down castle walls.

Why would he not be from the future?

We don't know that he is.

By making an important character say it.

What credibility does said character have?

They can kill rock pokemon.

Any attack can do that. Also, one rock =/= a castle wall.

 

[monzer]

When was it stated that it's not?

You said yourself that that logic isn't valid. If were using your logic Sonic isn't that fast.

Because there's energy building up in his mouth, which he then releases to destroy the castle wall.

But that was the only attack in Fire Emblem that's was ever even suspected to have charge. It make no sense if it had charge.

All of which have weak spots.

You can't destroy all of them at once.

I don't see how something being "a feat" means that the character can knock down castle walls.

Knocking the moon out of orbit, even if it was charged, with momentum, exc, it would still be enough for him to take out a castle wall.

We don't know that he is.

It's stated that he is.

What credibility does said character have?

He's an important character that sets up the plot of the game.

]Any attack can do that. Also, one rock =/= a castle wall.

Rock Pokemon at the max level end up around 100 times more durable than they were at the start. If they attacks can take out something 100 times more durable than rock or steel, it shows the can take out a castle wall.