Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

I think Confusion would be our best comparison to Mewtwo dazing someone in battle, since it confuses the opponent, which is similar to dazing. It only has a ten percent chance of working, so it's risky, but it just might give Mewtwo the upper hand in some scenarios.

He isn't talking about Confusion. He's actually wiped everyone's minds before. Yeah, it would give him an advantage over people, such as Sonic.

Hit him hard with what exactly?

A star.

 

[Munomario777]

He isn't talking about Confusion. He's actually wiped everyone's minds before. Yeah, it would give him an advantage over people, such as Sonic.

I'm aware of the mind-wiping; I was referring to the dazing, which Mewtwo does through Confusion in the games. Sonic's willpower might protect him from brainwashing, but either way, Sonic is an animal, with animal instincts. If his mind is wiped, he'll still know how to curl into a ball and kill people (or Pokemon) by going really fast. To what extent does the brainwashing wipe minds? Does it erase only recent memories? Does it wipe the brain completely? This question should be answered in order to determine the effect it would have on opponents.

A star.

Super Sonic (or regular Sonic with a fire shield) can walk on lava. A star is no big deal.

 

[Warlock*G]

I notice everybody's talking about characters' powers outside of any context except maybe an arena one, where adversaries are facing each others in formal combat.

However, what about sneaking? I bet some characters could sneak up on some others and incapacitate them before they could even react. It's Garrett time, baby!

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Mewtwo would beat a lot of people physically actually.

 

[Pym]

Going with mewtwo for the obvious choice. Also wouldn't count Palutena out, being a literal god and all.

 

[Crystanium]

What's so great about Mewtwo?

 

[Munomario777]

What's so great about Mewtwo?

Apparently he has some sort of brainwashing abilities, in addition to his other moves. If the brainwashing is anything like his other moves, though, PP would probably limit its usage. Also, until it's clarified to what extent the brainwashing goes, it doesn't really mean much for Mewtwo.

 

[Crystanium]

Apparently he has some sort of brainwashing abilities, in addition to his other moves. If the brainwashing is anything like his other moves, though, PP would probably limit its usage. Also, until it's clarified to what extent the brainwashing goes, it doesn't really mean much for Mewtwo.

I only know of this mind wiping ability in the first movie.

 

[Munomario777]

I only know of this mind wiping ability in the first movie.

I think that's what they're talking about. Do you happen to know what exactly Mewtwo wiped from the victim's mind?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think that's what they're talking about. Do you happen to know what exactly Mewtwo wiped from the victim's mind?

According to @ ShadowLBlue , it wiped the memories of all the characters of everything that happened in the movie.

Also, Sonic would be immune to the heat of a star, but what about the impact of the star hitting him? And then there's Rosie's blast from Mario Golf.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I really just can't see how anyone can beat pit.He beats gods for living.I really can't see someone beating him.The closest in my head would be a link or sonic maybe a kirby

Well, who you can beat doesn't necessarily make you better. It's more about how their skills, items and equipment match-up. Nonetheless he is in the 5 to 10 range.
We haven't done a tier list in a while but some of the people usually regarded over Pit are Palutena, Kirby, Samus, Link, Rosalina and Sonic. I might have forgotten a few.

Rosalina does. She controls gravity. She can manipulate whole galaxies, she can lift someone into water and force them to drown that way, and she can generally just hold people in place.

A) Where can she control gravity? (don't take this aggerssively, seriously asking. I'm aware of her being able to make planets, stars and black holes, but not controlling gravity
B) There's no water for her to drown him in the battlefield
C) How so? Sonic's brimming with energy so most people probably can't just grab him (assuming they can even catch him).

When you get right down to it, I think the system's pretty unbalanced in favour of characters that naturally have superpowers and reality-warping abilities. Somebody like Mac or Marth wouldn't stand a chance against that, and it's pretty much a weighted duel in favour of the combatant that can split the earth in two with a light tap. That's why Smash is so fun and exciting: it puts every character, regardless of power and omnipotence, on a level playing field and lets them fight in a fair and balanced context. Master Hand is quite the clever dextral appendage~

Yea, sometimes this debate is frustrating and makes you really appreciate Smash. Also makes you realize how severely nerfed some characters (like Palutena, one of my mains) are.

Well, it wouldn't really be Samus running; it would be the suit running. If she's running at Mach 1, she wouldn't have to keep running constantly; she could just run a good distance, wait for Link to catch up, and repeat.

Well I disagree with the first sentence, but agree with the rest of the paragraph. Link does have the pegasus boots to help him run, although they go nowhere near super sonic speed. I can't (tbh haven't tried) to think of a counter for speed boost.

Yeah, I was never saying Super Sonic was 100% invincible; just that the things he does have some weaknesses, but they're a bit irrelevant in this discussion for the reasons you mentioned.

Oh ok.

I think it's fair to have psychic attacks on the level of deity attacks, depending on the type of attack. For example, a psychic attack where telekinesis is used to hold the opponent in place and throw them at something, throw something at them, or other physical damage shouldn't be effective, since it's based on physical damage rather than psychic damage. Psychic energy attacks like, say, a psychic ray are good to go, since the damage itself comes from the psychic energy.

Agreed.

I assume you mean the fact that some Hungry Lumas turn into water planetoids. If Rosalina lifted Sonic into water, he would still have some options.

If I'm not mistaken, Super Sonic could also just plain fly out of the water.

I'm aware of the mind-wiping; I was referring to the dazing, which Mewtwo does through Confusion in the games. Sonic's willpower might protect him from brainwashing, but either way, Sonic is an animal, with animal instincts. If his mind is wiped, he'll still know how to curl into a ball and kill people (or Pokemon) by going really fast. To what extent does the brainwashing wipe minds? Does it erase only recent memories? Does it wipe the brain completely? This question should be answered in order to determine the effect it would have on opponents.

I was saying after he wipes their mind, their going to temporarily be dazed. And we don't know the limit of it, but at the minimum we know it can wipe several hours of memories.

Super Sonic (or regular Sonic with a fire shield) can walk on lava. A star is no big deal.

Don't agree, but I'm not sure Rosalina can hit him enough times with a star to knock out all his rings. She can always suck him in a black hole though (assuming she can accurately land one).

However, what about sneaking? I bet some characters could sneak up on some others and incapacitate them before they could even react. It's Garrett time, baby!

Sneaking requires a place to hide or the ability to turn invisible. The fight takes place on a flat battlefield and as far as I know only Link and the Kid Icarus characters can turn invisible.

What's so great about Mewtwo?

• Can Heal 50% of his own HP
• Variety of elemental attacks
• Can fly and teleport
• Taunt can force opponents who might try stalling into attacking blindly
• Endure can ensure he survives any hits. Afterwards he can teleport/fly away and recover, or if he wants to be bold can counter a physical move with Counter, inflicting twice the damage taken.
• Mimic lets him copy last move used, i.e. Rosalina gets a taste of her own black holes!
• Barrier/Light Screen increase defense to physical/non-physical attacks by 100%; both completely wrap around body and can be used on move.
• Strongest skill (imo): Can wipe memories from at least last few/several hours. If you have your memory wiped, they'll not only forget all they learned about how to fight him, but they'll forget their in a death match plus be dazed since they won't know where they are or why they are there.
• Can conjure up a massive storm, creating hurricane level winds.
• multiple moves that can't be evaded like Swift and Shock wave.
• Trick Room would be useful against Sonic, since it lets the slower character move first for 5 turns
• Torment keeps foes from using same move twice; could be useful for stopping Rosalina from using black holes more than once.
• He has a move called Magic Move that can prevent use of held item for 5 turns. So temporarily stops Super Sonic. Can be combined with...
• Trick, which swaps Mewtwo's held item with targets. So now Super Sonic is no longer an option.
• Snatch lets him steal effect of any status boosting or healing move; debatable could be used to mimic Super Sonic's nigh-invulnerability.
• Disable makes a target unable to use move for 4 turns.

So yes, Mewtwo is rather powerful. As for how long a turn lasts, I think a minute sounds fair.

Just a rough outline of how he'd do against some high ranking characters:
vs
-Instantly wipes memory, and while he's dazed uses...
-Trick lets him take at least one (I'd argue all 7) Chaos Emerald, at minimum stopping Super Sonic, and at maximum (if you believe he can take all 7 with trick) stopping any Chaos powers.
-Flies into air out of Sonic's range and uses Trick Room to ensure he gets to attack first 5 times. I'd personally think the smart thing to do would be use Embargo to keep mewtwo from using any of the remaining emeralds (only lasts 5 turns. Should a turn equal a minute?)
-Taunt (for 5 turns) keeps Sonic from stalling for time while his 6 emeralds are useless
-Without the emeralds, Sonic loses a massive edge. However IDK enough about Wisps to say how the fight goes from here, I believe @ Munomario777 did a post on them. Nonetheless I think we can all agree a ground bound Sonic is beatable.

vs
-mind wipe Rosalina after she makes a black hole and then use...
-Torment. Means that if she can't hit Mewtwo with her first black hole, she can't use it again.
-Mimic black hole and use it on Rosalina. If Rosalina's used up her star and mega mushroom, she's dead since she can't outrun a black hole.
-Disable works the same except it only lasts 4 turns. So that can be used to stop Lumas from changing into another cosmic thing.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Apparently he has some sort of brainwashing abilities, in addition to his other moves. If the brainwashing is anything like his other moves, though, PP would probably limit its usage. Also, until it's clarified to what extent the brainwashing goes, it doesn't really mean much for Mewtwo.

Are we going by anime logic or game logic, though? Because Mewtwo has shown the following abilities overall;

• Psychokinesis (the ability to grab and move objects without physically doing so)
• Telepathy (projecting vocalizations without opening it's mouth)
• Teleportation (...teleporting. )
• Mind control (taking control of a Nurse Joy to the extent that she remembers nothing from between when she was taken under control to being snapped out of it)
  
• Levitation (in his battle with Mew)
• Induction of amnesia (the "mind-wiping" ability seen in both the first movie and it's TV sequel)
• Use of elemental attacks (Flamethrower, Thunder, etc.)
• Superhuman strength
• Creation of psychokinetic barriers that reflect projectile attacks (Barrier)
  
• Can create and fire an immensely powerful beam of energy (Hyper Beam)
• Can create a ball of dark energy that can be launched towards a foe (Shadow Ball)
  
• Can block incoming physical attacks and swiftly counterattack (Counter)
  
• Can create a strong pulse of psychic energy (Psychic)
  
• Can recover from damage in battle (Recover)
  
• Can generate star-shaped rays that never miss (Swift)
• Can copy an opponent's attacks (Mimic)
• Can stun an opponent and leave them open to attack (Disable)

While Sonic has shown the following abilities overall;

• Spin Dash (curls into a ball and revs in place)
  
• Homing Attack (curls into a ball and lunges towards nearest enemy)
• Top speed of 730 mph (transsonic speed)
• High resistance to physical damage
• Can break the sound barrier for a split second to create a shield
• Can harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds to transform into Super Sonic, rendering him immune to physical damage
• Incredible willpower
• Extreme acrobatic skill and reflexes
• Can utilise Chaos Control to teleport
• Well-versed in sword combat
• Highly proficient in melee combat

This would ultimately come down to Sonic's biggest flaws; his overconfidence and ego, combined with his tendency to be impulsive and his "act first, think later" mentality, will be his undoing against Mewtwo's extreme mental abilities and overall stronger attacks.
To be blunt, Mewtwo has the upper hand in this fight due to his superior strengths, but Sonic's ludicrous speed is a hard thing to counter unless Mewtwo uses Disable immediately in the fight.

I think that's what they're talking about. Do you happen to know what exactly Mewtwo wiped from the victim's mind?

In the first movie, Mewtwo wiped the memories of New Island and the events of the plot from everyone's minds, while he only wipes Team Rocket's in Mewtwo Strikes Back. So Mewtwo can seemingly control it's extent and who it affects.​

 

[Munomario777]

According to @ ShadowLBlue , it wiped the memories of all the characters of everything that happened in the movie.

Ah. As long as it doesn't affect a character's long-term knowledge (such as how to fight), it shouldn't cause too many problems.

Also, Sonic would be immune to the heat of a star, but what about the impact of the star hitting him? And then there's Rosie's blast from Mario Golf.

Yes, since he can collide with a wall at light speed without flinching.

If I'm not mistaken, Super Sonic could also just plain fly out of the water.

Yes, he could, but I was working with the unlikely situation of Rosalina grabbing Super Sonic, just to cover every angle.

I was saying after he wipes their mind, their going to temporarily be dazed. And we don't know the limit of it, but at the minimum we know it can wipe several hours of memories.

Are the characters dazed in the movie after the brainwashing? Either way, Sonic's immense will power (he resists negative influences on his mind from Dark Gaia, a god of destruction, even after he's transformed physically into the Werehog) would likely mitigate the dazing, or at least allow him to remain conscious. Either way, Super Sonic's large Ring count allows him to tough it through most barrages.

Don't agree, but I'm not sure Rosalina can hit him enough times with a star to knock out all his rings. She can always suck him in a black hole though (assuming she can accurately land one).

Yeah, Super Sonic's large Ring count would give him the advantage here. Sonic can outrun black holes as shown in Sonic Colors, and remains conscious even while in the middle of one. This goes hand-in-hand with the fact that Sonic Unleashed's speed measurements have the Light Speed Dash clocking in at about 300 speed units, while Sonic's regular running is at 2000+. Light can't escape a black hole, but Sonic may be able to. Either way, Chaos Control.

• Can Heal 50% of his own HP
• Variety of elemental attacks
• Can fly and teleport
• Taunt can force opponents who might try stalling into attacking blindly
• Endure can ensure he survives any hits. Afterwards he can teleport/fly away and recover, or if he wants to be bold can counter a physical move with Counter, inflicting twice the damage taken.
• Mimic lets him copy last move used, i.e. Rosalina gets a taste of her own black holes!
• Barrier/Light Screen increase defense to physical/non-physical attacks by 100%; both completely wrap around body and can be used on move.
• Strongest skill (imo): Can wipe memories from at least last few/several hours. If you have your memory wiped, they'll not only forget all they learned about how to fight him, but they'll forget their in a death match plus be dazed since they won't know where they are or why they are there.
• Can conjure up a massive storm, creating hurricane level winds.
• multiple moves that can't be evaded like Swift and Shock wave.
• Trick Room would be useful against Sonic, since it lets the slower character move first for 5 turns
• Torment keeps foes from using same move twice; could be useful for stopping Rosalina from using black holes more than once.
• He has a move called Magic Move that can prevent use of held item for 5 turns. So temporarily stops Super Sonic. Can be combined with...
• Trick, which swaps Mewtwo's held item with targets. So now Super Sonic is no longer an option.
• Snatch lets him steal effect of any status boosting or healing move; debatable could be used to mimic Super Sonic's nigh-invulnerability.
• Disable makes a target unable to use move for 4 turns.

So yes, Mewtwo is rather powerful. As for how long a turn lasts, I think a minute sounds fair.

All of those moves have limited usage, though. I'm assuming you mean turns lasting a minute as in the effects of a move (i.e. X happens for Y turns = X happens for Y minutes), and not the cooldown between moves.

Just a rough outline of how he'd do against some high ranking characters:
vs
-Instantly wipes memory, and while he's dazed uses...
-Trick lets him take at least one (I'd argue all 7) Chaos Emerald, at minimum stopping Super Sonic, and at maximum (if you believe he can take all 7 with trick) stopping any Chaos powers.
-Flies into air out of Sonic's range and uses Trick Room to ensure he gets to attack first 5 times. I'd personally think the smart thing to do would be use Embargo to keep mewtwo from using any of the remaining emeralds (only lasts 5 turns. Should a turn equal a minute?)
-Taunt (for 5 turns) keeps Sonic from stalling for time while his 6 emeralds are useless
-Without the emeralds, Sonic loses a massive edge. However IDK enough about Wisps to say how the fight goes from here, I believe @ Munomario777 did a post on them. Nonetheless I think we can all agree a ground bound Sonic is beatable.

-Willpower, and how long do they stay dazed in the movie again?
-Except Sonic doesn't "hold" the Emeralds; they're absorbed into his body. They don't even physically appear when he transforms in some games; Sonic just turns Super.
-What range? Sonic has multiple methods to fly. Other than Super Sonic, he also has Darkspine Sonic, Excalibur Sonic, the Extreme Gear, etc., not to mention that the Emeralds would still be in his possession for reasons mentioned above.
-Actually, Taunt only keeps the opponent from using "status moves", which are attacks that change the weather, gives the opponent a status effect, or changes the user's stat. I don't see where you got that definition from.
-He loses one massive edge, but he still has his natural abilities. I went into detail on the Wisps in my Sonic overview post I did a while back. A notable Wisp is the Violet Wisp, which turns Sonic into a black hole, sucking in everything around him for an instant kill and becoming invulnerable to attacks.

vs
-mind wipe Rosalina after she makes a black hole and then use...
-Torment. Means that if she can't hit Mewtwo with her first black hole, she can't use it again.
-Mimic black hole and use it on Rosalina. If Rosalina's used up her star and mega mushroom, she's dead since she can't outrun a black hole.
-Disable works the same except it only lasts 4 turns. So that can be used to stop Lumas from changing into another cosmic thing.

-The Lumas can still attack, and they aren't too dumb to; they're fully intelligent beings with the ability to speak, as well as shooting their own Star Bits to create cosmic entities. If Rosalina is incapacitated, the Lumas can still create black holes and such.
-Since Torment only hits one opponent to my knowledge (based on the way Pokemon works), the Lumas not affected by the attack could still create black holes.
-The black hole attack is done by the Lumas, and involves them permanently turning into a black hole. If Mewtwo used this attack, he would be a black hole and be unable to move or attack beyond sucking things in at a close range. Not to mention that in Galaxy's ending, the Lumas overflowed a supermassive black hole, so they could do the same to this regular one and cause Mewtwo to explode.
-Again, a different Luma besides the one that was hit could use the attack. Even if it affected all opponents, Rosalina could simply summon more.

Are we going by anime logic or game logic, though? Because Mewtwo has shown the following abilities overall;

• Psychokinesis (the ability to grab and move objects without physically doing so)
• Telepathy (projecting vocalizations without opening it's mouth)
• Teleportation (...teleporting. )
• Mind control (taking control of a Nurse Joy to the extent that she remembers nothing from between when she was taken under control to being snapped out of it)
  
• Levitation (in his battle with Mew)
• Induction of amnesia (the "mind-wiping" ability seen in both the first movie and it's TV sequel)
• Use of elemental attacks (Flamethrower, Thunder, etc.)
• Superhuman strength
• Creation of psychokinetic barriers that reflect projectile attacks (Barrier)
  
• Can create and fire an immensely powerful beam of energy (Hyper Beam)
• Can create a ball of dark energy that can be launched towards a foe (Shadow Ball)
  
• Can block incoming physical attacks and swiftly counterattack (Counter)
  
• Can create a strong pulse of psychic energy (Psychic)
  
• Can recover from damage in battle (Recover)
  
• Can generate star-shaped rays that never miss (Swift)
• Can copy an opponent's attacks (Mimic)
• Can stun an opponent and leave them open to attack (Disable)

We're going by both, but if there's a contradiction, the games take precedence. The techniques you listed would all have limited usage because of PP, due to how Mewtwo's attacks (and those of all other Pokemon) work in the games.

While Sonic has shown the following abilities overall;

• Spin Dash (curls into a ball and revs in place)
  
• Homing Attack (curls into a ball and lunges towards nearest enemy)
• Top speed of 730 mph (transsonic speed)
• High resistance to physical damage
• Can break the sound barrier for a split second to create a shield
• Can harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds to transform into Super Sonic, rendering him immune to physical damage
• Incredible willpower
• Extreme acrobatic skill and reflexes
• Can utilise Chaos Control to teleport
• Well-versed in sword combat
• Highly proficient in melee combat

Those are some of them, but I compiled an extensive list here.

This would ultimately come down to Sonic's biggest flaws; his overconfidence and ego, combined with his tendency to be impulsive and his "act first, think later" mentality, will be his undoing against Mewtwo's extreme mental abilities and overall stronger attacks.

Sonic isn't one to hesitate to use his full power when it's necessary, and he's fought enough god monsters in his day to know a powerful foe when he sees one.

To be blunt, Mewtwo has the upper hand in this fight due to his superior strengths, but Sonic's ludicrous speed is a hard thing to counter unless Mewtwo uses Disable immediately in the fight.

Considering how Super Sonic only loses about twenty Rings (at most) when getting hit by attacks from gods of destruction, combined with his maximum Ring count of 999,999, Mewtwo won't be KOing Sonic anytime soon. Sonic's speed would definitely be way too much for Mewtwo, especially when combined with Chaos Control's teleportation, time freezing, and such.

In the first movie, Mewtwo wiped the memories of New Island and the events of the plot from everyone's minds, while he only wipes Team Rocket's in Mewtwo Strikes Back. So Mewtwo can seemingly control it's extent and who it affects.

Ah. What's the maximum amount of time he's wiped from someone's memory?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Ah. What's the maximum amount of time he's wiped from someone's memory?

From what the movies imply, it seems to be permanent or at the very least extremely long stretches (upwards of a couple of years).

So pretty long.

 

[Munomario777]

From what the movies imply, it seems to be permanent or at the very least extremely long stretches (upwards of a couple of years).

So pretty long.

What's the maximum we actually see Mewtwo wipe?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't agree with Mewtwo 'simply mindwaping' everyone. I do think that in the case as with Sonic, him being a psychic really gives him an advantage cause the mind moves faster than anything, even subconsiously. A high powered psychic as Mewtwo especially. So that gives him a lot of options to go for, provided he knows who he's facing / what he's doing.

Moves as Trick Room would take effect before Sonic could move. And "5 turns" should probably translate in Mewtwo having at least time to hit Sonic with some heavy blasts as he's now faster than him. Would be a real sight to see... Thing with Mewtwo is just that he can easily create a winning situation for him. And in this case Mewtwo getting a speed advantage over Sonic would give Mewtwo just.. too much time to toy around with Sonic. That's how I envision the matchup to go.

Considering this, I'm mostly interessted in how he'd do vs Ness and Shulk. Isaac to, if we could debate him to?

And an idea I had with this thread... Could we rank characters in certain abilities? Like we talked about earlier. We have to order characters more so that the fights can be as even as possible. Discussing vs is not interessting. vs for example is more of a fair fight. Or vs .

How about we rank the Original 12 first for example?



Do we do certain matchups?

And can we do team fights?

vs
vs /
/ vs
vs
vs
vs

Or can we make analysises about character's abilities and rank matchups and overal power rank based on that?

 

[Crystanium]

Can Heal 50% of his own HP

What does that translate to in terms of regenerative abilities?

Taunt can force opponents who might try stalling into attacking blindly

That presupposes all people have the same way of thinking. Taunting someone could anger them, but not all people would be offended.

Endure can ensure he survives any hits. Afterwards he can teleport/fly away and recover, or if he wants to be bold can counter a physical move with Counter, inflicting twice the damage taken.

Survive any hit? What is the extent Mewtwo could survive?

Mimic lets him copy last move used, i.e. Rosalina gets a taste of her own black holes!

Can you prove any move can be mimicked, especially to the same degree?

Strongest skill

(imo): Can wipe memories from at least last few/several hours. If you have your memory wiped, they'll not only forget all they learned about how to fight him, but they'll forget their in a death match plus be dazed since they won't know where they are or why they are there.

What's the name of this ability?

Can conjure up a massive storm, creating hurricane level winds.

What's the name of this ability? I'm aware of this taking place in the first movie. I've never seen it in the games.

multiple moves that can't be evaded like Swift and Shock wave.

Prove that these cannot be evaded.

Trick Room would be useful against Sonic, since it lets the slower character move first for 5 turns

And how does that work?

Torment keeps foes from using same move twice; could be useful for stopping Rosalina from using black holes more than once.

Why should we use turn-based mechanics?

He has a move called Magic Move that can prevent use of held item for 5 turns. So temporarily stops Super Sonic. Can be combined with...

Why should we use turn-based mechanics?

Trick

, which swaps Mewtwo's held item with targets. So now Super Sonic is no longer an option.

Presupposes Sonic would readily hand over the Chaos Emeralds.

Snatch lets him steal effect of any status boosting or healing move; debatable could be used to mimic Super Sonic's nigh-invulnerability.

You're making an awful lot of baseless claims.

Disable makes a target unable to use move for 4 turns.

Again, why should we use turn-based mechanics? This would be imposed on all characters, which wouldn't be fair to them.

So yes, Mewtwo is rather powerful. As for how long a turn lasts, I think a minute sounds fair.

Why should it be a minute?[/quote]

 

[Munomario777]

I don't agree with Mewtwo 'simply mindwaping' everyone. I do think that in the case as with Sonic, him being a psychic really gives him an advantage cause the mind moves faster than anything, even subconsiously. A high powered psychic as Mewtwo especially. So that gives him a lot of options to go for, provided he knows who he's facing / what he's doing.

Actually, it's estimated that brainwaves and such go at speeds of about 268 miles per hour. Still rather fast, but not as fast as Sonic.

Moves as Trick Room would take effect before Sonic could move. And "5 turns" should probably translate in Mewtwo having at least time to hit Sonic with some heavy blasts as he's now faster than him. Would be a real sight to see... Thing with Mewtwo is just that he can easily create a winning situation for him. And in this case Mewtwo getting a speed advantage over Sonic would give Mewtwo just.. too much time to toy around with Sonic. That's how I envision the matchup to go.

I'm not sure how we would interpret Trick Room into this sort of environment, since it's so integrated into the turn-based gameplay. I think the best way to do it would be to take it as Mewtwo's attacks becoming faster, but not guaranteeing the first strike if the opponent's attack is faster.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, since he can collide with a wall at light speed without flinching.

You and I never came to an agreement here. My issue here is the contradiction from the injuries Sonic can sustain and the amount of force one would experience from traveling light speed and suddenly stopping. If we're consistent, then Samus also receives the benefits of surviving forces reaching 32 greater than the thrust of a space shuttle. Of course, neither Sonic, nor Samus experience these forces, so we should ignore these absurd feats. Again, they contradict what Sonic and Samus can actually survive.

 

[Munomario777]

You and I never came to an agreement here. My issue here is the contradiction from the injuries Sonic can sustain and the amount of force one would experience from traveling light speed and suddenly stopping. If we're consistent, then Samus also receives the benefits of surviving forces reaching 32 greater than the thrust of a space shuttle. Of course, neither Sonic, nor Samus experience these forces, so we should ignore these absurd feats. Again, they contradict what Sonic and Samus can actually survive.

Well, Sonic did survive a fall from the upper atmosphere without a scratch. Either way, though, the stars that Lumas turn into aren't ever shown to move at very high speeds, and Sonic could easily outrun them anyways (I also don't see why a giant, non-solid sphere of gas would give someone impact damage in the first place).

 

[Nerdicon]

@ Munomario777
I actually agree with @sonicbrawler182 that Super Sonic isn't totally invincible, although not from a gut punch. (FYI using the health systems of characters was not muno's idea, most, if not all, of us agreed to it.)
But like muno said, who on Smash has the ability to: crush sonic with the weight of heavy machinery; make him drown; or wrap him up in a special energy containing field and suck out his energy?
I do agree with @ Diddy Kong think he should be vulnerable to psychics though. I feel like unless he has a stated special resistance to psychic attacks, he should be vulnerable to them. I look at it a bit like Superman: mostly invulnerable to everything but kryptonite, but being attacked by psychics is a different thing than resisting energy/physical attacks. (Of course I realize his vulnerability to psychics varies by the writer but I think you get my point).
I also think the following should be able to hurt him:

• since we've seen Sonic be injured by deities, Palutena and maybe even the Zelda characters (since the triforce does grant divine power, or something like that) should be able hurt him.
• Ditto for the non-Roy and Robin FE-characters since they all have holy weapons.
• Rosalina's black hole if he gets to close.
• I believe in at least one game that Super Sonic could be hurt/lose rings to a final eggman robot, which suggests an extremely powerful attack could injure him. The problem would be determining what attacks qualify.

Doesn't necessarily mean they could beat him, but I do think they could hurt him.

The object that crushes Sonic only has to be bigger than him to work. As for psychics, I feel any sort of influence (mind control, telekinesis) would work to defeat Sonic.
Mewtwo using Trick Room would render Sonic useless by making him extremely slow
Baton Kirby could take control Sonic and blow him up via Baton Toss
Pit's Great Sacred Treasure super death beam should kill Sonic, it kills Pit if he's invincible
Rosalina's black holes would suck Sonic up, but he could just teleport away

That final robot was the Egg Salamander from Sonic Rush and it was powered by the Sol Emeralds, with that power simple missiles could hurt Sonic.

The warp star is stated to move at warp speeds in the smash trophies. And before someone says "Smash isn't canon" the trophies refer to the canon. This counts as in-game lore which gets priority over gameplay. Warp speed in most all works of fiction refers to FTL travel or light speed. In that case Kirby would be zipping around as fast as Sonic
if not faster.

• Can Heal 50% of his own HP 16 PP
• Variety of elemental attacks
• Can fly and teleport Last I checked Mewtwo doesn't learn Fly or Telekinesis. His ability is Pressure not Levitate
• Taunt can force opponents who might try stalling into attacking blindly This forces opponents into attacks, not blind attacking
• Endure can ensure he survives any hits. Afterwards he can teleport/fly away and recover, or if he wants to be bold can counter a physical move with Counter, inflicting twice the damage taken. In these battles Mewtwo would probably take another hit right after the one that activates endure. Counter doesn't work if the user faints before the move can activate
• Mimic lets him copy last move used, i.e. Rosalina gets a taste of her own black holes! Mimic can't copy every move
• Barrier/Light Screen increase defense to physical/non-physical attacks by 100%; both completely wrap around body and can be used on move.
• Strongest skill (imo): Can wipe memories from at least last few/several hours. If you have your memory wiped, they'll not only forget all they learned about how to fight him, but they'll forget their in a death match plus be dazed since they won't know where they are or why they are there. This was anime only, and Mewtwo has nothing like this in the games
• Can conjure up a massive storm, creating hurricane level winds. Move?
• multiple moves that can't be evaded like Swift and Shock wave.
• Trick Room would be useful against Sonic, since it lets the slower character move first for 5 turns
• Torment keeps foes from using same move twice; could be useful for stopping Rosalina from using black holes more than once.
• He has a move called Magic Move that can prevent use of held item for 5 turns. So temporarily stops Super Sonic. Can be combined with...
• Trick, which swaps Mewtwo's held item with targets. So now Super Sonic is no longer an option.
• Snatch lets him steal effect of any status boosting or healing move; debatable could be used to mimic Super Sonic's nigh-invulnerability. Only works on stat boosts and healing, not inherent abilities
• Disable makes a target unable to use move for 4 turns .

So yes, Mewtwo is rather powerful. As for how long a turn lasts, I think a minute sounds fair.

Just a rough outline of how he'd do against some high ranking characters:
vs
-Instantly wipes memory, and while he's dazed uses...
-Trick lets him take at least one (I'd argue all 7) Chaos Emerald, at minimum stopping Super Sonic, and at maximum (if you believe he can take all 7 with trick) stopping any Chaos powers.
-Flies into air out of Sonic's range and uses Trick Room to ensure he gets to attack first 5 times. I'd personally think the smart thing to do would be use Embargo to keep mewtwo from using any of the remaining emeralds (only lasts 5 turns. Should a turn equal a minute?)
-Taunt (for 5 turns) keeps Sonic from stalling for time while his 6 emeralds are useless
-Without the emeralds, Sonic loses a massive edge. However IDK enough about Wisps to say how the fight goes from here, I believe @ Munomario777 did a post on them. Nonetheless I think we can all agree a ground bound Sonic is beatable.
Sonic would have already pummeled Mewtwo by the time he was ready to use his first attack

vs
-mind wipe Rosalina after she makes a black hole and then use...
-Torment. Means that if she can't hit Mewtwo with her first black hole, she can't use it again.
-Mimic black hole and use it on Rosalina. If Rosalina's used up her star and mega mushroom, she's dead since she can't outrun a black hole.
-Disable works the same except it only lasts 4 turns. So that can be used to stop Lumas from changing into another cosmic thing.
Rosalina has her shield and invincibility stars, Rosalina can also (albeit very slowly) teleport away[/quote]

 

[Crystanium]

Well, Sonic did survive a fall from the upper atmosphere without a scratch. Either way, though, the stars that Lumas turn into aren't ever shown to move at very high speeds, and Sonic could easily outrun them anyways (I also don't see why a giant, non-solid sphere of gas would give someone impact damage in the first place).

Do you have a video of that?

 

[Nerdicon]

Well, Sonic did survive a fall from the upper atmosphere without a scratch. Either way, though, the stars that Lumas turn into aren't ever shown to move at very high speeds, and Sonic could easily outrun them anyways (I also don't see why a giant, non-solid sphere of gas would give someone impact damage in the first place).

A fall from the upper atmosphere and a fall from space are completely different. Reentry speed is much faster based on how fast the object is moving as it enters the atmosphere. There's no drag in space so terminal velocity cannot be reached. In space whatever speed Sonic was moving at did not change until he made contact with the atmosphere HOWEVER Sonic does not ignite upon reentry into the atmosphere, so he couldn't have been moving fast. Lastly, a star ramming into someone at full speed would rip them apart due to friction. If that star moved as fast as the Earth spun, that would be the equivalent of a 1,000 mph heat wave. That's more powerful than the shockwave generated by the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

 

[Munomario777]

The object that crushes Sonic only has to be bigger than him to work.

Well, a non-solid ball of gas (AKA a star) wouldn't quite work.

As for psychics, I feel any sort of influence (mind control, telekinesis) would work to defeat Sonic.

Harm him? Yes. Defeat him? Not necessarily.

Mewtwo using Trick Room would render Sonic useless by making him extremely slow

"Trick Room reverses the move order within each priority bracket so that Pokémon with a lower Speed stat attack first, whilst those with a higher Speed stat will attack last. Individual brackets are still maintained; moves in higher priority brackets still work before moves in lower ones regardless of Trick Room." -Bulbapedia
Note the part where it says that moves that are faster still come first. Sonic's Light Speed Dash, the Boost, Spin Dash, etc. would still retain their speed.

Baton Kirby could take control Sonic and blow him up via Baton Toss

Sonic's willpower allows him to resist influences, and even if Kirby takes control of Sonic's body, the Chaos Emeralds are activated via thought, so he could still use them to take care of Kirby via Chaos Powers such as Chaos Spear and the like.

Pit's Great Sacred Treasure super death beam should kill Sonic, it kills Pit if he's invincible

Mario with a Starman is defeated by lava, yet Super Sonic is not. Just because it defeats other characters while using their invincibility doesn't mean it will defeat Super Sonic.

Rosalina's black holes would suck Sonic up, but he could just teleport away

True.

That final robot was the Egg Salamander from Sonic Rush and it was powered by the Sol Emeralds, with that power simple missiles could hurt Sonic.

The Sol Emeralds are basically an alternate dimension version of the Chaos Emeralds (Sonic : Chaos Emeralds : : Blaze : Sol Emeralds; they allow Blaze to enter her "Burning Blaze" form, which is her Super form), so they should be treated as having a similar power level to them. Seeing as how a Super Missile is essentially five regular Missiles, it doesn't really compare to the Chaos Emeralds' (and by extension Sol Emeralds') "ultimate power".

The warp star is stated to move at warp speeds in the smash trophies. And before someone says "Smash isn't canon" the trophies refer to the canon. This counts as in-game lore which gets priority over gameplay. Warp speed in most all works of fiction refers to FTL travel or light speed. In that case Kirby would be zipping around as fast as Sonic
if not faster.

In-game lore as in lore within a canon game, not Smash. Smash is non-canon, so it should be used as a last resort. Since we have gameplay of Kirby riding the Warp Star, referencing Smash is unnecessary. Also, in Brawl, the trophy says "[a] warp-speed item." Since the Warp Star is an item in the Smash games, this is assumed to mean that the Warp Star item in Smash is supposedly moving at warp speed, rather than the actual Warp Star in Kirby canon.

Do you have a video of that?

Yes.

A fall from the upper atmosphere and a fall from space are completely different. Reentry speed is much faster based on how fast the object is moving as it enters the atmosphere. There's no drag in space so terminal velocity cannot be reached. In space whatever speed Sonic was moving at did not change until he made contact with the atmosphere HOWEVER Sonic does not ignite upon reentry into the atmosphere, so he couldn't have been moving fast. Lastly, a star ramming into someone at full speed would rip them apart due to friction. If that star moved as fast as the Earth spun, that would be the equivalent of a 1,000 mph heat wave. That's more powerful than the shockwave generated by the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

Yes, falls from those heights are different, but Sonic survived the worst of both worlds without a scratch. He survived initial atmospheric re-entry, and he survived hitting the ground at terminal velocity. I think Sonic not igniting has more to do with his ability to handle high speeds than anything else (he doesn't catch on fire when he runs at hypersonic speeds, after all). How can friction occur with a non-solid object, and how would it rip Sonic apart? As I said earlier, the stars made by Lumas aren't shown to move at such high speeds. The key word in "heat wave" is "heat", which Sonic can survive via either the Fire Shield or his Super form.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Ah. As long as it doesn't affect a character's long-term knowledge (such as how to fight), it shouldn't cause too many problems.

It should erase the memory of having to fight Mewtwo, confusing them and giving a free attack.

All of those moves have limited usage, though. I'm assuming you mean turns lasting a minute as in the effects of a move (i.e. X happens for Y turns = X happens for Y minutes), and not the cooldown between moves.

Not all of Mewtwo's powers are limited usage. Mind control, teleportation, telekinesis, telepathy and mindwiping aren't actual moves, so they don't have finite uses.

-He loses one massive edge, but he still has his natural abilities. I went into detail on the Wisps in my Sonic overview post I did a while back. A notable Wisp is the Violet Wisp, which turns Sonic into a black hole, sucking in everything around him for an instant kill and becoming invulnerable to attacks.

Wisps are allies, so they can't be used here. Even so, Mewtwo could mindwipe them, take them, or control them.

-The Lumas can still attack, and they aren't too dumb to; they're fully intelligent beings with the ability to speak, as well as shooting their own Star Bits to create cosmic entities. If Rosalina is incapacitated, the Lumas can still create black holes and such.

And Mewtwo could mindwipe or control them.

-Since Torment only hits one opponent to my knowledge (based on the way Pokemon works), the Lumas not affected by the attack could still create black holes.

Mindwiping can affect multiple targets.

-Again, a different Luma besides the one that was hit could use the attack. Even if it affected all opponents, Rosalina could simply summon more.

When exactly outside of Smash has Rosalina been shown to summon Lumas?

We're going by both, but if there's a contradiction, the games take precedence. The techniques you listed would all have limited usage because of PP, due to how Mewtwo's attacks (and those of all other Pokemon) work in the games.

They aren't actual moves, so they don't have PP.

Considering how Super Sonic only loses about twenty Rings (at most) when getting hit by attacks from gods of destruction, combined with his maximum Ring count of 999,999, Mewtwo won't be KOing Sonic anytime soon. Sonic's speed would definitely be way too much for Mewtwo, especially when combined with Chaos Control's teleportation, time freezing, and such.

Mewtwo could use Me First to copy anything Super Sonic can do. Mega Mewtwo = a god of destruction. Mega Mewtwo + Skill Swap would let Mewtwo gain invincibility. So basically, Mewtwo can copy all of Sonic's attacks and abilities, adding to his own psychic skills. Sonic's outclassed.

What does that translate to in terms of regenerative abilities?



That presupposes all people have the same way of thinking. Taunting someone could anger them, but not all people would be offended.



Survive any hit? What is the extent Mewtwo could survive?



Can you prove any move can be mimicked, especially to the same degree?



What's the name of this ability?



What's the name of this ability? I'm aware of this taking place in the first movie. I've never seen it in the games.



Prove that these cannot be evaded.



And how does that work?



Why should we use turn-based mechanics?



Why should we use turn-based mechanics?


Presupposes Sonic would readily hand over the Chaos Emeralds.



You're making an awful lot of baseless claims.



Again, why should we use turn-based mechanics? This would be imposed on all characters, which wouldn't be fair to them.



Why should it be a minute?

Do you even know what we're talking about here? These are moves that have effects that are the claims. The claims are proved any time the move is used. Swift's effect is that it can't be dodged, it's been proved. We wouldn't use turn mechanics, but we should use either a time limit or a number of actions.

These questions are like asking you to prove Samus' lasers work on things that aren't aliens.

Considering this, I'm mostly interessted in how he'd do vs Ness and Shulk. Isaac to, if we could debate him to?

I actually know quite a bit about Isaac. But without summons, Ness and Shulk would both curbstomp. Shulk would also stomp Ness.

And an idea I had with this thread... Could we rank characters in certain abilities? Like we talked about earlier. We have to order characters more so that the fights can be as even as possible. Discussing vs is not interessting. vs for example is more of a fair fight. Or vs .

Interesting idea.

How about we rank the Original 12 first for example?

Do we do certain matchups?

And can we do team fights?

vs
vs /
/ vs
vs
vs
vs

Or can we make analysises about character's abilities and rank matchups and overal power rank based on that?

These are all good ideas.

But we're actually doing a tournament of the most powerful characters right now. And its owner is stubborn and basically ignores all your arguments, putting in his outcome no matter what.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I have like 3 long posts to reply to so I"m doing them all in bold in quotes.

I also want to point out Trick Room always goes last and that priority moves still take precdence, although I'm not sure who outside of Sonic has priority moves and only light speed dash (I think) could hit Mewtwo in air. Spin Dash and boost would be much less effective in air since he'd go straight down I believe.

Yes, since he can collide with a wall at light speed without flinching.

Yes, he could, but I was working with the unlikely situation of Rosalina grabbing Super Sonic, just to cover every angle.

Are the characters dazed in the movie after the brainwashing? Either way, Sonic's immense will power (he resists negative influences on his mind from Dark Gaia, a god of destruction, even after he's transformed physically into the Werehog) would likely mitigate the dazing, or at least allow him to remain conscious. Either way, Super Sonic's large Ring count allows him to tough it through most barrages.
It's not the same thing though. There's a difference between corrupting someone's mind and making them physically forget what's happening. Besides, Ash has a lot of will power too, like most action heroes.

Yeah, Super Sonic's large Ring count would give him the advantage here. Sonic can outrun black holes as shown in Sonic Colors, and remains conscious even while in the middle of one. This goes hand-in-hand with the fact that Sonic Unleashed's speed measurements have the Light Speed Dash clocking in at about 300 speed units, while Sonic's regular running is at 2000+. Light can't escape a black hole, but Sonic may be able to. Either way, Chaos Control.
Forgot about Chaos Control.


All of those moves have limited usage, though. I'm assuming you mean turns lasting a minute as in the effects of a move (i.e. X happens for Y turns = X happens for Y minutes), and not the cooldown between moves.
Yes, I'm aware but he has several dozen he can use and he might not need to use all of his PP to kill his foe. Palutena and Ness also have their own form of PP but doesnt stop them from ranking high.


-Willpower, and how long do they stay dazed in the movie again? Addressed willpower above and they're not shown dazed because we don't see them immediately after the mind wipe (at least not in the first movie). I think my use of the word dazed is throwing you off. Like I explained earlier, anyone who loses their memory and finds themselves in a new situation would logically be a little confused and unaware their in life or death battle. I don't mean dazed as in their paralyzed and can't move.
-Except Sonic doesn't "hold" the Emeralds; they're absorbed into his body. They don't even physically appear when he transforms in some games; Sonic just turns Super.
Doesn't stop them from getting knocked out of him sometimes, so I see no reason the moves I listed couldn't work. Also, most of these Pokemon items aren't "held" either, especially since some Pokemon lack hands. I don't know where they go since the anime rarely if ever shows Pokemon with items in battle to my knowledge.

-What range? Sonic has multiple methods to fly. Other than Super Sonic, he also has Darkspine Sonic, Excalibur Sonic, the Extreme Gear, etc., not to mention that the Emeralds would still be in his possession for reasons mentioned above.
Can you show footage of this? I'm just asking cause I know you could find it quicker. And I have never seen an extreme gear fly, just "catch air".
-Actually, Taunt only keeps the opponent from using "status moves", which are attacks that change the weather, gives the opponent a status effect, or changes the user's stat. I don't see where you got that definition from.
The literal definition of the move. "Enrages foes so they only use attack moves"

-He loses one massive edge, but he still has his natural abilities. I went into detail on the Wisps in my Sonic overview post I did a while back. A notable Wisp is the Violet Wisp, which turns Sonic into a black hole, sucking in everything around him for an instant kill and becoming invulnerable to attacks.
Sonic must be the biggest victim of cutscene power and strong as you need to be.

-The Lumas can still attack, and they aren't too dumb to; they're fully intelligent beings with the ability to speak, as well as shooting their own Star Bits to create cosmic entities. If Rosalina is incapacitated, the Lumas can still create black holes and such.
I don't believe they've ever been shown attacking without instruction though. They're a bit like tamed Pokemon. But it's not a stretch to say they'd act on their own so I'll concede that.
-Since Torment only hits one opponent to my knowledge (based on the way Pokemon works), the Lumas not affected by the attack could still create black holes.
I was thinking it would hit Rosalina and keep her from issuing the command but in retrospect I'll concede you as being right too.

-The black hole attack is done by the Lumas, and involves them permanently turning into a black hole. If Mewtwo used this attack, he would be a black hole and be unable to move or attack beyond sucking things in at a close range. Not to mention that in Galaxy's ending, the Lumas overflowed a supermassive black hole, so they could do the same to this regular one and cause Mewtwo to explode.
Hmmm so you're saying it might be like a self destruct move...ok I'll concede this too. I guess I was thinking of Rosalina too much like her smash character. Thanks for the constructive feedback.

If don't address part of your post, I probably addressed it in munomario's.

What does that translate to in terms of regenerative abilities?
Healing half of his total HP. I don't really know how else to explain it, although since we're using health and damage systems from different games I don't know how it works for this thread.

That presupposes all people have the same way of thinking. Taunting someone could anger them, but not all people would be offended.
If it works on 750 something pokemon of varying moods and personalities, I see 0 reason it wouldn't affect a Smash character.

Survive any hit? What is the extent Mewtwo could survive?
It gurantees he has at least 1 HP left, basically would leave him on death's door. In case of multi-hit moves, counts for whole move.

Can you prove any move can be mimicked, especially to the same degree?
I recant my thing about copying black holes from Lumas since it would kill Mewtwo since it "kills" the Luma, but unless it's a move like with Luma's transforming permanently then yes. The only exceptions are other moves that involve copying (i.e. Kirby's ability to swallow and copy) or a move involving randomness (think of the power-up roulette from Mario. Should also mention move only works once but lasts all battle.

What's the name of this ability?
It's not and an ability or move so it doesn't have a name or PP.


What's the name of this ability? I'm aware of this taking place in the first movie. I've never seen it in the games.
Same as above, I'm assuming he conjured it up through pure psychic energy alone rather than summoning up a storm (like Storm from X-men.)


Prove that these cannot be evaded.
THe literal definition says can't be invaded. Even hits Pokemon during their semi-invulnerable turns of FLy, dig or dive when they're high in sky, deep under water/ground. The only exception's are ghosts and Detect, which is basically the pokemon equivalent of a dodge roll from Smash.


And how does that work?
The entire arena is surrounded in checkered dimension and then the speed swap occurs. Even Protect and detect can't stop it.

Why should we use turn based mechanic?
It's not a turn based mechanic, it translates pretty simply to real world.
As for Magic Room, i suggested a way to translate it to real life. Feel free to come up with a better idea.

Presupposes Sonic would readily hand over the Chaos Emeralds.
...it's not a voluntary process.

You're making an awful lot of baseless claims.
You know what debatable means right? I'm not saying it WOULD happen or is even likely to occur, but Super Sonic *could* be looked at as a massive stat upgrade. That's not baseless.

[/quote]

@ Nerdicon
- 16 PP
I'm aware. 16 Heals is still useful, especially in comparison to people who can't heal.
-Can fly and teleport Last I checked Mewtwo doesn't learn Fly or Telekinesis. His ability is Pressure not Levitate
anime abilities that don't contradict anything in game can be used.
This forces opponents into attacks, not blind attacking
Point is they can't stall. Sonic may not be the best example, but it would be useful for lowering Kirby's many invincible guards.

- In these battles Mewtwo would probably take another hit right after the one that activates endure. Counter doesn't work if the user faints before the move can activate
As long as you keep hitting him endure will last. The best real time application would be the one chance ability from Kingdom Hearts. He'll retain that one HP until the foe stops attacking. As for counter, you're assuming he couldn't get the move off in between the end of endure and the time it takes for the opponents next attack.
-Mimic lets him copy last move used, i.e. Rosalina gets a taste of her own black holes! Mimic can't copy every move Addressed it above; the only moves it doesn't counter have no analogous comparison here besides Kirby's swallow skill.
Strongest skill (imo): Can wipe memories from at least last few/several hours. If you have your memory wiped, they'll not only forget all they learned about how to fight him, but they'll forget their in a death match plus be dazed since they won't know where they are or why they are there. This was anime only, and Mewtwo has nothing like this in the games
oh, you mean anime only like Baton Kirby?
Can conjure up a massive storm, creating hurricane level winds. Move?
addressed in post to Drynn.
Only works on stat boosts and healing, not inherent abilities.
Transforming into Super Sonic isn't an inherent ability but like I said I'm not certain it would actually work that way. In a way Super Sonic is like a massive stat boost but I'm not sure if it would work.

Sonic isn't going to pummel Mewtwo to death before his first attack. You act like his attacks have 20 second start up lag or something.

 

[Munomario777]

It should erase the memory of having to fight Mewtwo, confusing them and giving a free attack.

One attack. Whoop-de-doo. Sonic lost twenty Rings, and he still has hundreds (if not hundreds of thousands) more.

Not all of Mewtwo's powers are limited usage. Mind control, teleportation, telekinesis, telepathy and mindwiping aren't actual moves, so they don't have finite uses.

As shown by the games, Mewtwo's psychic abilities all have limited uses, and these would be no exception. The anime doesn't reference PP when it includes moves from the games, so this is more due to the anime's style of handling things than anything.

Wisps are allies, so they can't be used here. Even so, Mewtwo could mindwipe them, take them, or control them.

They function as power-ups gameplay-wise (in Lost World they're inventory items along with Rings, Shields, and the like), and the fairies in bottles from the Zelda series are similar in that they're sentient, but they function as items. I think we should define "ally" as another character that can function separately from the main character entering the combat. Fairies in bottles don't really do anything separate from Link (apart from reviving him, but that's due to Link dying), and Wisps are used solely for Sonic to access his Color Powers. The Wisps aren't really physically present for the majority of the time (they seem to reside inside of Sonic similarly to the Chaos Emeralds), so they wouldn't be an accessible target for Mewtwo's brainwashing.

And Mewtwo could mindwipe or control them.

Lumas could turn into black holes extremely quickly. Could you provide a video of Mewtwo performing the brainwash for reference?

Mindwiping can affect multiple targets.

How many targets, and at what distance?

When exactly outside of Smash has Rosalina been shown to summon Lumas?

The character in Smash is Rosalina and Luma, and Rosalina never runs out of Lumas in Smash, so we're giving her access to an infinite number of Lumas (since she has access to an infinite number in Smash).

They aren't actual moves, so they don't have PP.

See above.

Mewtwo could use Me First to copy anything Super Sonic can do. Mega Mewtwo = a god of destruction. Mega Mewtwo + Skill Swap would let Mewtwo gain invincibility. So basically, Mewtwo can copy all of Sonic's attacks and abilities, adding to his own psychic skills. Sonic's outclassed.

...And Super Sonic loses a few more Rings from the attack. Big deal. Sonic's fought a robot with all seven Chaos Emeralds, the data of multiple other characters (including that of Sonic himself), and a giant cannon aimed at the earth in thirty seconds, in his normal form, and won. He's also fought a water god of destruction that had also absorbed all seven Emeralds in his normal form, and of course, he won that battle too. Mewtwo without the Emeralds would be no sweat. Super Sonic's enhanced abilities rely on the Chaos Emeralds' energy, along with a steady supply of Rings. Since Mewtwo has neither, things wouldn't really work out. Also, you're forgetting that Skill Swap, you know, swaps skills. So Sonic has psychic powers along with the Emeralds and a steady supply of Rings, while Mewtwo loses his psychic abilities.

It's not the same thing though. There's a difference between corrupting someone's mind and making them physically forget what's happening. Besides, Ash has a lot of will power too, like most action heroes.

Sonic resisted mind control in Sonic Chronicles (the Sonic RPG for the DS) using a Chaos Emerald. This Emerald did have power from that mind controller inside, but since we're taking the best from all worlds here, Sonic should have one of these in his possession. Either way, all seven Chaos Emeralds combined with the Master Emerald should give him some sort of resistance. It doesn't really matter though, since there's not much Mewtwo could do to a brain-wiped Super Sonic, since he has so many Rings at his disposal.

Forgot about Chaos Control.

Yes, I'm aware but he has several dozen he can use and he might not need to use all of his PP to kill his foe. Palutena and Ness also have their own form of PP but doesnt stop them from ranking high.

It's still worth taking into consideration, however, especially when dealing with characters with incredible defensive measures such as Link's Chateau Romani + Magic Armor and Sonic's Super form.

Addressed willpower above and they're not shown dazed because we don't see them immediately after the mind wipe (at least not in the first movie). I think my use of the word dazed is throwing you off. Like I explained earlier, anyone who loses their memory and finds themselves in a new situation would logically be a little confused and unaware their in life or death battle. I don't mean dazed as in their paralyzed and can't move.

Ah, okay. Still, Sonic has been shown to be able to adapt to practically any situation; he picked up swordplay within minutes of finding Caliburn in Sonic and the Black Knight, he learned Extreme Gear riding in a snap in Sonic Riders, and his lightning-fast reflexes play into this quick-thinking idea.

Doesn't stop them from getting knocked out of him sometimes, so I see no reason the moves I listed couldn't work. Also, most of these Pokemon items aren't "held" either, especially since some Pokemon lack hands. I don't know where they go since the anime rarely if ever shows Pokemon with items in battle to my knowledge.

As I've said in the past, the only time Sonic's Emeralds were knocked out of him were when he wasn't in an intense battle scenario. In Sonic 3's opening cutscene, Sonic is on a joyride across the ocean with Tails (he even jumps off of the biplane!), and Knuckles catches him off guard. In Unleashed, he was being a bit overconfident, mainly because he's met Robotnik before (because who would really take that guy seriously after Lava Reef's boss in S&K?), and the machine was specifically designed for that purpose. In a deathmatch setting such as this, he would be more focused and alert.

Can you show footage of this? I'm just asking cause I know you could find it quicker. And I have never seen an extreme gear fly, just "catch air".

Sure. Darkspine Sonic footage can be found here, and here's a video of Excalibur Sonic in action. Extreme Gear can hover above the ground, so I'd imagine that the fact that they can't fly in-game is mainly for gameplay purposes. He doesn't really need to use it, though, since he has the forms mentioned above.

The literal definition of the move. "Enrages foes so they only use attack moves"

Ah. Sonic isn't one to get angry at foes; he's very calm and level-headed most of the time. (Unless they killed his friends or something like in Lost World. Oh, um spoilers. ) Either way, though, Sonic being forced onto the offensive wouldn't be a bad thing, since his attacks are so powerful to begin with.

Sonic must be the biggest victim of cutscene power and strong as you need to be.

Actually, the Violet Void power is mainly a gameplay element, rather than a cutscene element.

I don't believe they've ever been shown attacking without instruction though. They're a bit like tamed Pokemon. But it's not a stretch to say they'd act on their own so I'll concede that.

Co-Star Lumas fire Star Bits at enemies in the co-op mode, and all Lumas will do anything to protect Rosalina.

I was thinking it would hit Rosalina and keep her from issuing the command but in retrospect I'll concede you as being right too.

Hmmm so you're saying it might be like a self destruct move...ok I'll concede this too. I guess I was thinking of Rosalina too much like her smash character. Thanks for the constructive feedback.

No problem!

 

[Crystanium]

Do you even know what we're talking about here? These are moves that have effects that are the claims. The claims are proved any time the move is used. Swift's effect is that it can't be dodged, it's been proved. We wouldn't use turn mechanics, but we should use either a time limit or a number of actions.

I do. I know the description for swift says it never misses. The onus is on it. Here's why I call bull on it, even though the onus isn't on me. First, while it may have originally harmed those using dig and fly, this is no longer the case. Using protect also cancels it. Second, how fast is swift? "Swift" doesn't tell us anything about how fast it travels any more than the word "hyper speed". Why should anyone think swift will work on characters who are faster than it?

These questions are like asking you to prove Samus' lasers work on things that aren't aliens.

Not even.

Healing half of his total HP. I don't really know how else to explain it, although since we're using health and damage systems from different games I don't know how it works for this thread.

Yeah, that's still a problem that I don't feel Munomario777 addressed well.

That presupposes all people have the same way of thinking. Taunting someone could anger them, but not all people would be offended.

If it works on 750 something pokemon of varying moods and personalities, I see 0 reason it wouldn't affect a Smash character.

Because most Smash characters aren't Pokemon and games don't take into consideration personalities.

It gurantees he has at least 1 HP left, basically would leave him on death's door. In case of multi-hit moves, counts for whole move.

1 hit point doesn't tell me anything. Again, my issue with Munomario777's standard, really.

Can you prove any move can be mimicked, especially to the same degree?

I recant my thing about copying black holes from Lumas since it would kill Mewtwo since it "kills" the Luma, but unless it's a move like with Luma's transforming permanently then yes. The only exceptions are other moves that involve copying (i.e. Kirby's ability to swallow and copy) or a move involving randomness (think of the power-up roulette from Mario. Should also mention move only works once but lasts all battle.

Kirby copies abilities that end up being similar, but not on the same level as the opponent Kirby absorbed. Let me put it this way. Gilgamesh from the Fate series has this ability called Gate of Babylon. From what I recall, he can summon a lot of things from there. It doesn't mean he can summon anything. All right, maybe that's not the best comparison. I think Kirby does fine. How about Sam Gideon from Vanquish? He can mimic weaponry, but I doubt his would perfectly mimic Mega Man's or Samus' arm cannon.

Same as above, I'm assuming he conjured it up through pure psychic energy alone rather than summoning up a storm (like Storm from X-men.)

Well, if it's not in the game, I'm ignoring it.

THe literal definition says can't be invaded. Even hits Pokemon during their semi-invulnerable turns of FLy, dig or dive when they're high in sky, deep under water/ground. The only exception's are ghosts and Detect, which is basically the pokemon equivalent of a dodge roll from Smash.

Dig and fly can evade swift. Shock wave, if it works like any real shock wave, can be evaded by those on par or faster than supersonic. I'd say shock wave cannot be evaded for the same reason why I cannot avoid sound. It travels 1,126.4 feet per second. To me, it seems instantaneous. So it's true to some extent that it cannot be evaded. Let's keep in mind that phrase, "to some extent". I feel too many are thinking black and white without considering limitations.

It's not a turn based mechanic, it translates pretty simply to real world.

I punch, you dodge. You kick, I evade. Not everything works like that. In fact, some RPGs like Final Fantasy allow for another strike, and I'm not referring to multi-hit attacks. I'm talking about how I could attack my opponent and because my meter refills faster than my opponent's, I can perform another attack. Heck, even in Paper Mario, the double dip badge allows Mario to use two items before his opponent can strike. Yet, that's not how reality would work. Well, yeah, Mario could use two items, but his opponent wouldn't wait there until Mario's turn was finished. That's the issue I have.

...it's not a voluntary process.

Seems that way to me.

You know what debatable means right? I'm not saying it WOULD happen or is even likely to occur, but Super Sonic *could* be looked at as a massive stat upgrade. That's not baseless.

You used "debatable" with reference to one thing from what I recall. I'm sure Mewtwo would be in a good position on the tier list, regardless.

 

[Munomario777]

@Dryn
To clarify, I agree with the sentiment you stated when we were discussing HP and such, that being that item-dependent HP (such as Mario's power-ups, Sonic's Rings, Samus's suit, etc.) should be included, but in the case of games like Pokemon, where it's just an HP meter for the Pokemon itself, it should be seen as a representation of the general durability/stamina of that fighter.

 

[Nerdicon]

...And Super Sonic loses a few more Rings from the attack. Big deal. Sonic's fought a robot with all seven Chaos Emeralds, the data of multiple other characters (including that of Sonic himself), and a giant cannon aimed at the earth in thirty seconds, in his normal form, and won. He's also fought a water god of destruction that had also absorbed all seven Emeralds in his normal form, and of course, he won that battle too. Mewtwo without the Emeralds would be no sweat. Super Sonic's enhanced abilities rely on the Chaos Emeralds' energy, along with a steady supply of Rings. Since Mewtwo has neither, things wouldn't really work out. Also, you're forgetting that Skill Swap, you know, swaps skills. So Sonic has psychic powers along with the Emeralds and a steady supply of Rings, while Mewtwo loses his psychic abilities.

That doesn't look like 30 seconds to me, I know, I know "lore over gameplay" but that's not the greatest feat in the world (not to mention it's from an alternate canon). What do I mean? It's impossible for Gamma and Shadow to exist at the same time. If SA1 c truly comes before SA2 then Gamma was dead by the time Shadow was woken up. Main canon > alternate canon.

EDIT: Gamma in Sonic Battle is a different robot. Whoops.

 

[Munomario777]

That doesn't look like 30 seconds to me, I know, I know "lore over gameplay" but that's not the greatest feat in the world (not to mention it's from an alternate canon). What do I mean? It's impossible for Gamma and Shadow to exist at the same time. If SA1 c truly comes before SA2 then Gamma was dead by the time Shadow was woken up. Main canon > alternate canon.

Well, a robot with all seven Chaos Emeralds (AKA "ultimate power") and Sonic's fighting data > Mewtwo with no Emeralds and no prior knowledge of Sonic (if you ask me anyways), and Sonic with no Emeralds < Sonic with all seven Emeralds. Not the most impressive feat, but it's definitely up there, and the fact that Sonic can beat a foe many times more powerful than himself really shows what he's capable of. Gamma is a robot, and robots can easily be mass produced. Does Gamma retain his SA1 memories? If so, then Robotnik must have backed them up to iCloud or something.

 

[Nerdicon]

You and I never came to an agreement here. My issue here is the contradiction from the injuries Sonic can sustain and the amount of force one would experience from traveling light speed and suddenly stopping. If we're consistent, then Samus also receives the benefits of surviving forces reaching 32 greater than the thrust of a space shuttle. Of course, neither Sonic, nor Samus experience these forces, so we should ignore these absurd feats. Again, they contradict what Sonic and Samus can actually survive.

There are a plethora of contradictions in these games. For example Kirby is perfectly fine flying around at incredible speeds, and yet can be damaged by the seemingly harmless Waddle Dees

In-game lore as in lore within a canon game, not Smash. Smash is non-canon, so it should be used as a last resort. Since we have gameplay of Kirby riding the Warp Star, referencing Smash is unnecessary. Also, in Brawl, the trophy says "[a] warp-speed item." Since the Warp Star is an item in the Smash games, this is assumed to mean that the Warp Star item in Smash is supposedly moving at warp speed, rather than the actual Warp Star in Kirby canon.

Correction, what the characters do in Smash are non-canon; the trophies describe canon information. Not to mention the trophy refers to the main canon so it gets priority over gameplay. As for the trophy description (if you really want to go there):

Spoiler

A warp-speed item. In the Kirby series, Warp Stars are used to move between stages. In Smash Bros., they're ultrafast attack items that zoom up and down to devastate anyone they hit. You can shift your landing spot by moving the Control Stick left or right during your descent. Choose your target and hang on! Don't overshoot the mark and plummet off the stage, though

If your assumption were the case the sentence would make more grammatical sense if the beginning phrase was not there and the paragraph started with "In the Kirby series". With it's placement in the sentence, the starting phrase broadly describes the Warp Star, as in both canons. Not to mention the phrase "In Smash Bros., they're ultrafast attack items..." references a different speed or else the same word or a close synonym would be used instead of ultra-fast.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn
To clarify, I agree with the sentiment you stated when we were discussing HP and such, that being that item-dependent HP (such as Mario's power-ups, Sonic's Rings, Samus's suit, etc.) should be included, but in the case of games like Pokemon, where it's just an HP meter for the Pokemon itself, it should be seen as a representation of the general durability/stamina of that fighter.

I'm perfectly fine with that. For example, rock-types are going to be quite tough and some fire-types that dwell in super-heated regions are going to also be tough. They need some type of protection to resist the effects of heat. Those with shells also benefit in durability. So I'm fine with that, especially if there are certain electric-types that can generate electrical fields to produce a barrier like a plasma window.

There are a plethora of contradictions in these games. For example Kirby is perfectly fine flying around at incredible speeds, and yet can be damaged by the seemingly harmless Waddle Dees

Kirby is also fine using the jet ability, which allows him to travel Mach 5. No doubt, it's just a burst, so the effects would be negligible. Still, Kirby does travel in a hard vacuum, so drag isn't an issue. Kirby is no human, but humans have gone through high-g training so they could lift off into space.

 

[Crystanium]

Accidental double post.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Nerdicon

I do think we should come to a consensus on where exactly Smash is in the hierarchy. In the meantime, I'll say this: The majority of the trophy description is referring to the item in Smash Brothers. The first sentence describes its speed, the second describes its origin, the third provides a general summary of its behavior, the fourth provides instructions on how to control the item, the fifth is speaking to the in-game character, and the sixth provides a word of warning. Since the majority of the description refers to the Smash item, it would be odd to have the first sentence referring to another franchise entirely. Using different synonyms within a paragraph isn't inconsistency; it's avoiding repetition. This along with the fact that it uses the word "item" specifically implies that it's talking about the Warp Star's properties in Smash Brothers.

As for Smash's position in the hierarchy, I think it should be above real-world science/reasoning, but below other, canon games. I also think that it could be grouped in with other media (such as TV shows, comics, etc.), with all of them sharing that position. What do you all think?

 

[Crystanium]

As for Smash's position in the hierarchy, I think it should be above real-world science/reasoning, but below other, canon games. I also think that it could be grouped in with other media (such as TV shows, comics, etc.), with all of them sharing that position. What do you all think?

I think we should stick with the original media. I think the trophy information can offer a bit more insight, but only if it's consistent. For example, the Dark Suit Samus trophy says the dark suit is found in Torvus Bog, when it's actually found in Agon Wastes, or when it says Kanden was a failed attempt at creating invincible soldiers, but says "invisible". Any other information from it is accurate, though.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think I'm just going to leave this thread because of the way it's turned.

 

[Nerdicon]

@ Nerdicon
I do think we should come to a consensus on where exactly Smash is in the hierarchy.

Why? At the worst the trophies have minor inconsistencies. For the most part they're accurate.

In the meantime, I'll say this: The majority of the trophy description is referring to the item in Smash Brothers. The first sentence describes its speed, the second describes its origin, the third provides a general summary of its behavior, the fourth provides instructions on how to control the item, the fifth is speaking to the in-game character, and the sixth provides a word of warning.

Like I said before, the structure of the sentence suggests that the first phrase "a warp speed item" refers to both Smash and Kirby. This is further supported by the speed being redescribed in the Smash section, but not in the Kirby section. Therefore, the phrase "a warp speed item" likely refers to the Kirby warp star only. Not to mention that we still don't have a definitive handle on how fast the warp star moves and have had to resort to real-world logic.

Since the majority of the description refers to the Smash item, it would be odd to have the first sentence referring to another franchise entirely. Using different synonyms within a paragraph isn't inconsistency; it's avoiding repetition. This along with the fact that it uses the word "item" specifically implies that it's talking about the Warp Star's properties in Smash Brothers.

A paragraph can refer to two things, and one subject is less talked about; but why does that change something that encompasses the entire paragraph? Ultrafast and warp speed sound pretty far apart to me, definitely not synonyms that could be used perfectly in the exact same contexts. And here's Webster's definition of an item

Spoiler

an individual thing : a separate part or thing

The warp star is technically an item by definition, but I would've thought that went without saying

As for Smash's position in the hierarchy, I think it should be above real-world science/reasoning, but below other, canon games. I also think that it could be grouped in with other media (such as TV shows, comics, etc.), with all of them sharing that position. What do you all think?

It refers to the canon it describes with only minor errors occasionally, it should be a primary source of lore in my opinion

 

[Munomario777]

Why? At the worst the trophies have minor inconsistencies. For the most part they're accurate.

Here we see an example of an inconsistency between Smash and the main series. When there is an inconsistency, we must choose one over the other.

Like I said before, the structure of the sentence suggests that the first phrase "a warp speed item" refers to both Smash and Kirby. This is further supported by the speed being redescribed in the Smash section, but not in the Kirby section. Therefore, the phrase "a warp speed item" likely refers to the Kirby warp star only. Not to mention that we still don't have a definitive handle on how fast the warp star moves and have had to resort to real-world logic.

Yes, we do. We've seen gameplay of the Warp Star going at non-warp speeds, which is gameplay. Observing speeds in gameplay isn't "resorting to real-world logic". It's resorting to gameplay.

A paragraph can refer to two things, and one subject is less talked about; but why does that change something that encompasses the entire paragraph?

Ultrafast and warp speed sound pretty far apart to me, definitely not synonyms that could be used perfectly in the exact same contexts.

I'd say warp speed counts as an ultrafast speed. It doesn't need to be restated, because warp speed was already established in the first sentence.

And here's Webster's definition of an item

Spoiler

an individual thing : a separate part or thing

The warp star is technically an item by definition, but I would've thought that went without saying

Yes, that's Webster's definition, but this is a Smash Brothers game. In Smash Brothers, an "item" is a specific subset of objects that can be toggled on and off in the "items" menu. The Warp Star is one of them, and in the context of Smash Brothers (and therefore this trophy), "item" means something in the item toggle menu.

It refers to the canon it describes with only minor errors occasionally, it should be a primary source of lore in my opinion

What do we do in the case of those "minor errors" though? As @Dryn pointed out (and as we see here), there can be some major contradictions between Smash and the main series games. I don't think it should be a primary source of lore with so many errors.

 

[Crystanium]

I think I'm just going to leave this thread because of the way it's turned.

In what way did it turn? I'm not sure who you're defending, but maybe I could help.

What do we do in the case of those "minor errors" though? As @Dryn pointed out (and as we see here), there can be some major contradictions between Smash and the main series games. I don't think it should be a primary source of lore with so many errors.

As long as we know the errors, they can be resolved. I'm not saying we should through out trophy information. Heck, we don't even have to throw out the information given by Snake's codices.