Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Crystanium]

Argh! Accidental double post.

 

[Munomario777]

As long as we know the errors, they can be resolved. I'm not saying we should through out trophy information. Heck, we don't even have to throw out the information given by Snake's codices.

Very true. This basically describes what placing Smash low in the hierarchy would do: it can be used for insight and extra information, but not in the case of a contradiction.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

One attack. Whoop-de-doo. Sonic lost twenty Rings, and he still has hundreds (if not hundreds of thousands) more.

True, but if you believe Trick (the item swapping move) works on Chaos emeralds, which I do - especially on a Sonic who just lost his memory, that's where it's real value lies.

As shown by the games, Mewtwo's psychic abilities all have limited uses, and these would be no exception. The anime doesn't reference PP when it includes moves from the games, so this is more due to the anime's style of handling things than anything.

Not true, Pokemon can use HM's and certain TMs even when they are unable to battle or out of PP, they just can't use them to attack. Since the things @ Kirby Dragons mentioned aren't specific moves, it's likely he could use these a large, undetermined amount of times without having to worry about PP. And PP *does* exist in anime, it's just there is usually only one battle a episode and they're over fairly quick.

The character in Smash is Rosalina and Luma, and Rosalina never runs out of Lumas in Smash, so we're giving her access to an infinite number of Lumas (since she has access to an infinite number in Smash).

Does she only get one at a time since we're basing her character off Smash 4?

Also, you're forgetting that Skill Swap, you know, swaps skills. So Sonic has psychic powers along with the Emeralds and a steady supply of Rings, while Mewtwo loses his psychic abilities.

It's called skill swap but it actually swaps abilities. Not sure what Sonic's ability would be but I'd guess super speed. Unlike some other moves I mentioned, this one is too ambiguous to translate outside of pokemon so I think we should not use it. FYI if skill swap did work it would give Sonic pressure (physical attacks are twice as exhausting to use), not psychic skills.

Sonic resisted mind control in Sonic Chronicles (the Sonic RPG for the DS) using a Chaos Emerald. This Emerald did have power from that mind controller inside, but since we're taking the best from all worlds here, Sonic should have one of these in his possession. Either way, all seven Chaos Emeralds combined with the Master Emerald should give him some sort of resistance. It doesn't really matter though, since there's not much Mewtwo could do to a brain-wiped Super Sonic, since he has so many Rings at his disposal.

I've already stated why I disagree with the last sentence in my first sentence in this post. That being said I think their is a difference in resisting Mind control and wiping memories since one affects an unconscious area of the brain, if that makes any sense. I think Ness could probably resist mind wipe though as an elite psychic himself.

It's still worth taking into consideration, however, especially when dealing with characters with incredible defensive measures such as Link's Chateau Romani + Magic Armor and Sonic's Super form.

yea.

Ah, okay. Still, Sonic has been shown to be able to adapt to practically any situation; he picked up swordplay within minutes of finding Caliburn in Sonic and the Black Knight, he learned Extreme Gear riding in a snap in Sonic Riders, and his lightning-fast reflexes play into this quick-thinking idea.

All those are true but I don't agree that they'd somehow help him regain his sense after having his mind wiped.

As I've said in the past, the only time Sonic's Emeralds were knocked out of him were when he wasn't in an intense battle scenario. In Sonic 3's opening cutscene, Sonic is on a joyride across the ocean with Tails (he even jumps off of the biplane!), and Knuckles catches him off guard. In Unleashed, he was being a bit overconfident, mainly because he's met Robotnik before (because who would really take that guy seriously after Lava Reef's boss in S&K?), and the machine was specifically designed for that purpose. In a deathmatch setting such as this, he would be more focused and alert.

I think Sonic, if his memories were erased, would be unfocused enough to be vulnerable to Embargo/Trick.
Also all of the moves involving held items I mentioned are also specifically made to remove items. I know Chaos emeralds are extremely powerful but at the end of the day I still believe they qualify as held items, which as I stated don't need to be physically held. I hope I'm not coming off wrong, I'm just saying there's a strong argument (imo) the aforementioned moves work on Sonic's emeralds.

Sure. Darkspine Sonic footage can be found here, and here's a video of Excalibur Sonic in action. Extreme Gear can hover above the ground, so I'd imagine that the fact that they can't fly in-game is mainly for gameplay purposes. He doesn't really need to use it, though, since he has the forms mentioned above.

Darkspine Sonic can fly. So can Excaliber Sonic although if I'm not mistaken he needs to borrow the swords of his friends to use it, which if true should probably disqualify it from being used. And the only reason I disagree with Extreme Gear is because it seems like an advanced hover board, so I think it's more likely it can only hover a few feet off the ground and not really fly.

Ah. Sonic isn't one to get angry at foes; he's very calm and level-headed most of the time. (Unless they killed his friends or something like in Lost World. Oh, um spoilers. ) Either way, though, Sonic being forced onto the offensive wouldn't be a bad thing, since his attacks are so powerful to begin with.

Pokemon of varying moods and natures get affected so I doubt Sonic's immune, but I do agree with the last sentence.

Actually, the Violet Void power is mainly a gameplay element, rather than a cutscene element.

No clue what that is.

I do. I know the description for swift says it never misses. The onus is on it. Here's why I call bull on it, even though the onus isn't on me. First, while it may have originally harmed those using dig and fly, this is no longer the case. Using protect also cancels it. Second, how fast is swift? "Swift" doesn't tell us anything about how fast it travels any more than the word "hyper speed". Why should anyone think swift will work on characters who are faster than it?

oops, didn't know that. Still, that only says it should work on anything on the same general plane as Mewtwo.
And it works on characters faster than pokemon in game, no matter how much faster, so I don't see why Sonic (regular form) would be able to outrun it.


Not even.

Because most Smash characters aren't Pokemon and games don't take into consideration personalities.

You're treating Pokemon like animals...Pokemon have individual personalities just like humans, and a pokemon's nature actually does affect gameplay so I don't agree.

1 hit point doesn't tell me anything. Again, my issue with Munomario777's standard, really.

oh ok.

Kirby copies abilities that end up being similar, but not on the same level as the opponent Kirby absorbed. Let me put it this way. Gilgamesh from the Fate series has this ability called Gate of Babylon. From what I recall, he can summon a lot of things from there. It doesn't mean he can summon anything. All right, maybe that's not the best comparison. I think Kirby does fine. How about Sam Gideon from Vanquish? He can mimic weaponry, but I doubt his would perfectly mimic Mega Man's or Samus' arm cannon.

In game mimc copies moves perfectly. For example a pokemon called Bonsly has no arms but if it used mimic after mega punch, it would gain the ability to use mega punch. As for the Samus and Mega man example, it wouldn't copy the arm canon, it would just mimic the attack.

Well, if it's not in the game, I'm ignoring it.

That's fine but no one else here is since we agreed anime additions are fine if they don't contradict game.

Dig and fly can evade swift. Shock wave, if it works like any real shock wave, can be evaded by those on par or faster than supersonic. I'd say shock wave cannot be evaded for the same reason why I cannot avoid sound. It travels 1,126.4 feet per second. To me, it seems instantaneous. So it's true to some extent that it cannot be evaded. Let's keep in mind that phrase, "to some extent". I feel too many are thinking black and white without considering limitations.

Addressed this above, but in case of swift and its clones I agree.

I punch, you dodge. You kick, I evade. Not everything works like that. In fact, some RPGs like Final Fantasy allow for another strike, and I'm not referring to multi-hit attacks. I'm talking about how I could attack my opponent and because my meter refills faster than my opponent's, I can perform another attack. Heck, even in Paper Mario, the double dip badge allows Mario to use two items before his opponent can strike. Yet, that's not how reality would work. Well, yeah, Mario could use two items, but his opponent wouldn't wait there until Mario's turn was finished. That's the issue I have.

I get you're point, but in all those cases you mentioned it would count as a turn. Let me put it this way: Endure ensures you will survive until you have another chance to move. It guarantees you have the opportunity to do something else and not die because you're stuck being attacked relentlessly. I'm certain it works like One Chance in Kingdom Hearts, if you ever played that.

Seems that way to me.

Idk why you look at it that way. Why would opposing Pokemon willingly give up their items? In the anime it's shown encasing the foe's body "in light blue, and an item it's holding glows white and disappears. It is then replaced with an item the opponent was holding."

You used "debatable" with reference to one thing from what I recall. I'm sure Mewtwo would be in a good position on the tier list, regardless.

All of my points attempting to translate a move from Pokemon to real life require guesswork since things don't cleanly translate.
Besides I never actually said Sonic or Rosie lose to Mewtwo, I'm just attempting to lay out an argument for how he could win. That and give an idea of what his powers/skills are.

@ Nerdicon

I do think we should come to a consensus on where exactly Smash is in the hierarchy. In the meantime, I'll say this: The majority of the trophy description is referring to the item in Smash Brothers. The first sentence describes its speed, the second describes its origin, the third provides a general summary of its behavior, the fourth provides instructions on how to control the item, the fifth is speaking to the in-game character, and the sixth provides a word of warning. Since the majority of the description refers to the Smash item, it would be odd to have the first sentence referring to another franchise entirely. Using different synonyms within a paragraph isn't inconsistency; it's avoiding repetition. This along with the fact that it uses the word "item" specifically implies that it's talking about the Warp Star's properties in Smash Brothers.

As for Smash's position in the hierarchy, I think it should be above real-world science/reasoning, but below other, canon games. I also think that it could be grouped in with other media (such as TV shows, comics, etc.), with all of them sharing that position. What do you all think?

I like the idea of it being above science but below games.
Also most items differentiate between how it performs in smash vs the actual series, like in @ Nerdicon post about Warp Stars. Notice how for it says it moves at "warp speed" in the Kirby series but only "ultra fast" in Smash. That being said, like Drynn said we have to be cognizant about how error filled the trophies can be.
As for why it's seen going non-warp speeds, I think the answer is simple: Since it's not actually warping, going that fast between locations that are on the same planet is unnecessary. Just like how Sonic can run at mach 2 but we rarely see him go it because there's no need (that and even Sonic might have trouble reacting to traps/enemies if he's going *too fast*).
Second, Warp Star is shown to need a build-up to hit top speed.
Last, Kirby (I think) has trouble hanging onto it if it goes too fast and he's not just making simple movements.

I think I'm just going to leave this thread because of the way it's turned.

Why? I didn't see anyone say anything particularly wrong to you. And it's not like your opinon's being ignored/rejected by all.

 

[Munomario777]

True, but if you believe Trick (the item swapping move) works on Chaos emeralds, which I do - especially on a Sonic who just lost his memory, that's where it's real value lies.

I'm still under the impression that normal attacks could only knock the Emeralds out of Sonic if he was outside of a battle scenario, and he was rather relaxed (like in Sonic 3's opening). In the opening cutscene for Sonic Generations, Sonic is only disoriented for a few seconds after being knocked unconscious, sent flying, left lying on the ground, and sent to another dimension outside of time itself. He also seems rather level-headed after being summoned into a storybook and falling from the sky; he reacts quickly enough to catch his chili dogs before they hit the ground. Sonic's adaptability keeps him alert, and this helps him adapt to new environments, so losing a bit of memory shouldn't throw him off too much.

Not true, Pokemon can use HM's and certain TMs even when they are unable to battle or out of PP, they just can't use them to attack. Since the things @ Kirby Dragons mentioned aren't specific moves, it's likely he could use these a large, undetermined amount of times without having to worry about PP. And PP *does* exist in anime, it's just there is usually only one battle a episode and they're over fairly quick.

Key words there being "they just can't use them to attack." Mewtwo could fly, teleport, and such, but it wouldn't be able to attack the opponent. For non-game attacks that use Mewtwo's psychic abilities, I say we group those in with the Psychic move, which has ten uses.

Does she only get one at a time since we're basing her character off Smash 4?

No, for the same reason we're not limiting Olimar to three Pikmin.

It's called skill swap but it actually swaps abilities. Not sure what Sonic's ability would be but I'd guess super speed. Unlike some other moves I mentioned, this one is too ambiguous to translate outside of pokemon so I think we should not use it. FYI if skill swap did work it would give Sonic pressure (physical attacks are twice as exhausting to use), not psychic skills.

Ah, I see.

I've already stated why I disagree with the last sentence in my first sentence in this post. That being said I think their is a difference in resisting Mind control and wiping memories since one affects an unconscious area of the brain, if that makes any sense. I think Ness could probably resist mind wipe though as an elite psychic himself.

Well, you consciously access memories, and you consciously control your body. I'd say there's not too much of a difference.

yea.

Yup.

All those are true but I don't agree that they'd somehow help him regain his sense after having his mind wiped.

The point is that Sonic has great adaptability, so if his memories of the battle were wiped and he was effectively encountering Mewtwo for the first time, he wouldn't freak out or anything; he would just adapt to the situation and deal with it.

I think Sonic, if his memories were erased, would be unfocused enough to be vulnerable to Embargo/Trick.

I don't, for reasons mentioned above.

Also all of the moves involving held items I mentioned are also specifically made to remove items. I know Chaos emeralds are extremely powerful but at the end of the day I still believe they qualify as held items, which as I stated don't need to be physically held. I hope I'm not coming off wrong, I'm just saying there's a strong argument (imo) the aforementioned moves work on Sonic's emeralds.

I think this all depends on how long the attack takes, and what the animation is like in-game. Depending on those two factors, Sonic could either be too fast for the attack or avoid it.

Darkspine Sonic can fly. So can Excaliber Sonic although if I'm not mistaken he needs to borrow the swords of his friends to use it, which if true should probably disqualify it from being used. And the only reason I disagree with Extreme Gear is because it seems like an advanced hover board, so I think it's more likely it can only hover a few feet off the ground and not really fly.

Well, we're taking the best gear the characters have used and putting it in this discussion, so I think we should give Sonic the sacred swords. Either way, though, he already has Darkspine Sonic. As for the Extreme Gear, fair enough.

Pokemon of varying moods and natures get affected so I doubt Sonic's immune, but I do agree with the last sentence.

Fair enough.

No clue what that is.

It's the Wisp I was referring to in the part of my post that you quoted. It transforms the user into a flying, living black hole, which is invulnerable to attacks and sucks in anything in its path.

oops, didn't know that. Still, that only says it should work on anything on the same general plane as Mewtwo.
And it works on characters faster than pokemon in game, no matter how much faster, so I don't see why Sonic (regular form) would be able to outrun it.

Actually, based on the in-game animations, it seems like Swift is a focused projectile attack (the user shoots multiple stars at the target), which could be dodged if the opponent is quick enough.

I like the idea of it being above science but below games.

As do I. That would make the hierarchy as follows:
Creators clarifying something > Lore > Gameplay > Other media > Smash Brothers > Real world science/reasoning

Also most items differentiate between how it performs in smash vs the actual series, like in @ Nerdicon post about Warp Stars. Notice how for it says it moves at "warp speed" in the Kirby series but only "ultra fast" in Smash. That being said, like Drynn said we have to be cognizant about how error filled the trophies can be.

Well, in the case of the Warp Star, if it's referring to the Warp Star when it says warp speed, then it's ruled out by Kirby series gameplay showing it obviously not going at warp speed. If warp speed is referring to the Smash item, then it's irrelevant to this discussion.

As for why it's seen going non-warp speeds, I think the answer is simple: Since it's not actually warping, going that fast between locations that are on the same planet is unnecessary. Just like how Sonic can run at mach 2 but we rarely see him go it because there's no need (that and even Sonic might have trouble reacting to traps/enemies if he's going *too fast*).
Second, Warp Star is shown to need a build-up to hit top speed.
Last, Kirby (I think) has trouble hanging onto it if it goes too fast and he's not just making simple movements.

That's also a possibility. Either way, though, it would make going at warp speed an undesirable option in a combat situation such as this.

 

[Nerdicon]

I like the idea of it being above science but below games.
Also most items differentiate between how it performs in smash vs the actual series, like in @ Nerdicon post about Warp Stars. Notice how for it says it moves at "warp speed" in the Kirby series but only "ultra fast" in Smash. That being said, like Drynn said we have to be cognizant about how error filled the trophies can be.

Glad someone agrees with me.

As for why it's seen going non-warp speeds, I think the answer is simple: Since it's not actually warping, going that fast between locations that are on the same planet is unnecessary. Just like how Sonic can run at mach 2 but we rarely see him go it because there's no need (that and even Sonic might have trouble reacting to traps/enemies if he's going *too fast*).

Although Kirby is definitely not the best at landing the warp star, he seems to be pretty precise when using it to fly around at high speeds like in Milky Way Wishes or when flying to and from the Halberd.

Second, Warp Star is shown to need a build-up to hit top speed.
Last, Kirby (I think) has trouble hanging onto it if it goes too fast and he's not just making simple movements.

The start-up lag isn't a problem if you have an invincible guard now is it?
There's not a single example I can think of when Kirby fell of the Warp Star without something hitting it.

 

[Munomario777]

Glad someone agrees with me.

Although Kirby is definitely not the best at landing the warp star, he seems to be pretty precise when using it to fly around at high speeds like in Milky Way Wishes or when flying to and from the Halberd.

But those aren't FTL speeds. The Milky Way Wishes world map sure doesn't look FTL using Kirby for reference, and we don't know the planets' sizes, so we can't really get an accurate calculation from them (for all we know, they could be the size of moons, rather than the size of earth).

The start-up lag isn't a problem if you have an invincible guard now is it?

Actually, the guard is only immune to weak attacks; strong attacks will still get through. Enemies can also grab Kirby during the guard, and it doesn't protect him from lava and such.

There's not a single example I can think of when Kirby fell of the Warp Star without something hitting it.

That's the thing, though; Kirby would probably crash on his own, since light speed (and therefore "warp speed") means that the object goes a mile (or ten miles, the size of this battlefield) in the blink of an eye, making it impossible for Kirby to react (not to mention the crazy things that would happen to Kirby's perception of space and time at such high speeds).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue I'm leaving because of Muno and Dryn. Muno is being stubborn and changes the rules or whatever just so he can get his way. Dryn tells you to prove every single thing you mention, even though there's plenty of proof already. It's really annoying. There's no point of debating with either of them. They ruined the thread for me.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I'm still under the impression that normal attacks could only knock the Emeralds out of Sonic if he was outside of a battle scenario, and he was rather relaxed (like in Sonic 3's opening). In the opening cutscene for Sonic Generations, Sonic is only disoriented for a few seconds after being knocked unconscious, sent flying, left lying on the ground, and sent to another dimension outside of time itself. He also seems rather level-headed after being summoned into a storybook and falling from the sky; he reacts quickly enough to catch his chili dogs before they hit the ground. Sonic's adaptability keeps him alert, and this helps him adapt to new environments, so losing a bit of memory shouldn't throw him off too much.

I think those few seconds of being disoriented are about how long the memory wipe would last on Sonic, which would be more likely be long enough to use trick. It would only need to be initiated for it to take a effect since, like I told Drynn, it encases the user in a psychic light then teleports the item out of his hand.
I think you make a good counter argument though, I just don't agree. For what it's worth, I'm not saying if Mewtwo takes a emerald he'd beat Sonic. I'd still give Sonic the edge.

Key words there being "they just can't use them to attack." Mewtwo could fly, teleport, and such, but it wouldn't be able to attack the opponent. For non-game attacks that use Mewtwo's psychic abilities, I say we group those in with the Psychic move, which has ten uses.

Well none of those are attack moves in the first place so I don't think that matters.
Anyway, I think flight should be unlimited since I think it's the psychic equivalent of a bird flapping it's wings.
Telepathy's not really relevant here so IDC about the pp.
Teleport actually has a PP-20. 32 with PP max.
10 pp for mind wipe is fine, unless someone disagrees.
telekinesis is just moving objects with your mind. Almost all of psychic pokemon's special (attacking) moves involve the word telekinesis, I think it's pretty low energy move. So 10 pp would be way too low. Would need to be WAY up there if it's going to be given a PP.

No, for the same reason we're not limiting Olimar to three Pikmin.

ok, but is there an upper limit.

Well, you consciously access memories, and you consciously control your body. I'd say there's not too much of a difference.

I think this all depends on how long the attack takes, and what the animation is like in-game. Depending on those two factors, Sonic could either be too fast for the attack or avoid it.

To my knowledge it's not something that can be dodged outside of using detect, although you can block it with protect. So if Sonic knew it was coming and has some shield/wisp made for specifically blocking attacks in general (I don't count any of his elemental shields), that could work.

Well, we're taking the best gear the characters have used and putting it in this discussion, so I think we should give Sonic the sacred swords. Either way, though, he already has Darkspine Sonic. As for the Extreme Gear, fair enough.

I kind of disagree but not enough to argue. But using this thinking, I think we'd have to give Bowser the Star Rod.

It's the Wisp I was referring to in the part of my post that you quoted. It transforms the user into a flying, living black hole, which is invulnerable to attacks and sucks in anything in its path.

So you're saying he can out run a black hole he created?

Actually, based on the in-game animations, it seems like Swift is a focused projectile attack (the user shoots multiple stars at the target), which could be dodged if the opponent is quick enough.

I think Sonic could run faster than they chase him, but like I told Drynn I think they'd home onto him unless he moves to a different height plane like what happens with fly or dig. I always thought of Swift being (nearly) avoidable as due to it homing onto characters, not because it moves at warp speed.
Regardless, there's no reason he can't just use one of his attacks to knock it down so it's not that big of a deal.

That's also a possibility. Either way, though, it would make going at warp speed an undesirable option in a combat situation such as this.

Agreed, just like I don't expect Sonic to be running at mach 2 this whole fight. The area's only 10x10 miles, running "only" a few 100 mph should be fine.

Although Kirby is definitely not the best at landing the warp star, he seems to be pretty precise when using it to fly around at high speeds like in Milky Way Wishes or when flying to and from the Halberd.

You're right, I mispoke.

The start-up lag isn't a problem if you have an invincible guard now is it?
There's not a single example I can think of when Kirby fell of the Warp Star without something hitting it.

That's actually true too. I was thinking more of how almost any time he lands he always is usually thrown off dramatically.
Start-up lag might be irrelevant though since, if I'm not mistaken, isn't an issue if he just calls one on his cell phone. I believe when he did that in Amazing Mirror it picked him up seamlessly.

@ ShadowLBlue I'm leaving because of Muno and Dryn. Muno is being stubborn and changes the rules or whatever just so he can get his way. Dryn tells you to prove every single thing you mention, even though there's plenty of proof already. It's really annoying. There's no point of debating with either of them. They ruined the thread for me.

I've seen you and Nerdicon say this, but I'm oblivious to what rule(s) he single handily changed without us all agreeing, can either you point one out? I must have missed it. Not questioning you, seriously just lost as to what rules he changed without our input. I know we at least got him to agree to composite Link and anime being allowed (latter wasn't my idea).

And no disrespect Drynn, but I kind of agree. I think we all have said (noticeably when we were discussing Ganondorf) that you have this slightly annoying habit of putting the onus on us to prove that stated game lore/gameplay feature should be taken at its word, when that shouldn't be the case. For example, If the game says "character X can cut anything with his ultimate sword", we shouldn't have to go to look for examples or text where it may not have cut something. It's fine, even helpful, to be curious about the limits of things or ask how they work, like our conversation about Swift, but we shouldn't have to be the ones to look it up. We definitely shouldn't have to answer how it works scientifically or try to apply science to it.

Off-topic, but I just remembered that Mario has Pixls, one of which is called Barry who does, and I quote from the game, "This impenetrable Pixl repels enemy attacks", via a barrier that lasts a few seconds. We may need to reconsider Mario's rank on the tier list, although I still think he loses to Sonic. Pixls have no limit to how many times they can be used.
And before you ask, Pixls are stated in game to have created as sentient tools, so yes they should be allowed.

 

[Crystanium]

My thing about the burden of proof is if a claim is made, it needs to be proved. I'm not going to accept a claim made by people, regardless of whether or not it's in the game. Let me clarify. In some fictional world, person A says, "He can only die by x." It's a claim, one that may or may not be true in that universe. The description stating which weapons are effective is not from some fictional character. It's still in that respective universe, but one that needn't be regarded as a claim, except outaide of said universe. If no one likes having to prove things, debating is not for you.

 

[Nerdicon]

@ ShadowLBlue I'm leaving because of Muno and Dryn. Muno is being stubborn and changes the rules or whatever just so he can get his way. Dryn tells you to prove every single thing you mention, even though there's plenty of proof already. It's really annoying. There's no point of debating with either of them. They ruined the thread for me.

While I kind of agree with you, I feel Dryn's questioning of your claims are perfectly valid. I feel when there's already enough proof that it's ridiculous.

But those aren't FTL speeds. The Milky Way Wishes world map sure doesn't look FTL using Kirby for reference, and we don't know the planets' sizes, so we can't really get an accurate calculation from them (for all we know, they could be the size of moons, rather than the size of earth).

Again. Yes we do. Popstar (the star shaped planet) in Kirby 64 is the same size as Shiver Star which is a post-apocalyptic earth. There's your accurate calculation on the planet size. So on the Milky Way Wishes map Kirby is moving 6731 km per second. That's more than enough speed to catch most.

Actually, the guard is only immune to weak attacks; strong attacks will still get through. Enemies can also grab Kirby during the guard, and it doesn't protect him from lava and such.

Mirror, Leaf, Bell (this one even counterattacks), Ice, Archer, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting are all invincible while guarding. Archer, Leaf, and Bell (maybe all of them, it's been a while) are immune to grabs and only still lava harms a defending Kirby, enemies with lava attacks can be blocked.

That's the thing, though; Kirby would probably crash on his own, since light speed (and therefore "warp speed") means that the object goes a mile (or ten miles, the size of this battlefield) in the blink of an eye, making it impossible for Kirby to react (not to mention the crazy things that would happen to Kirby's perception of space and time at such high speeds).

Then shouldn't Sonic be just as overwhelmed moving at such high speeds? Not to mention Kirby can just move slower. He doesn't have to be moving at full speed at all times. He could go much slower and still out-speed a grand majority of the cast.

 

[Nerdicon]

You're right, I mispoke.

It's all good

That's actually true too. I was thinking more of how almost any time he lands he always is usually thrown off dramatically.
Start-up lag might be irrelevant though since, if I'm not mistaken, isn't an issue if he just calls one on his cell phone. I believe when he did that in Amazing Mirror it picked him up seamlessly.

I've played Amazing Mirror recently and I can tell you that there is a minute amount of lag when you call it. Funny enough, in the same game Kirby actually dissipates the Warp Star instead of crashing it, that's the only example I can remember of him not crashing.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I know I said I was leaving, but I have some stuff to say first.
@ Munomario777 The character is Rosalina & Luma, not Rosalina & Lumas. And while I'd be okay with her using more, there's no way for her to get them. There's not an infinite amount of Rosalinas, so why should there be an infinite amount of Lumas?

vs . Mewtwo uses Skill Swap to gain Sonic's willpower, then controls him into punching himself until he's defeated. Wisps may be power-ups, but they're still allies that assist, so they're disallowed. If Sonic becomes Super Sonic, Mewtwo controls him into teleporting away from the arena for ten seconds, resulting in Mewtwo's win. If Sonic tries to attack, it uses Protect, Barrier, Light Screen, or Endure.
vs . Mewtwo controls the Lumas (which should really only be one Luma) into becoming black holes and sucking up Rosie. Mewtwo uses Skill Swap to take her immunity to stars/black holes, and Snatch to take her wand. If Rosie uses a Starman, it holds her in place using TK. If she becomes a statue, it controls her into switching back.

 

[Munomario777]

I think those few seconds of being disoriented are about how long the memory wipe would last on Sonic, which would be more likely be long enough to use trick. It would only need to be initiated for it to take a effect since, like I told Drynn, it encases the user in a psychic light then teleports the item out of his hand.

It might be a bit less dazing since Sonic would be standing/running/etc. rather than lying on the ground and having to get up again. I looked into it a bit, and I found that Trick doesn't work on Mega Stones (trigger Mega Evolutions) or colored orbs (trigger Primal Reversion), and since the Chaos Emeralds have a similar function, I'd imagine it wouldn't work on the Emeralds either.

I think you make a good counter argument though, I just don't agree. For what it's worth, I'm not saying if Mewtwo takes a emerald he'd beat Sonic. I'd still give Sonic the edge.

Very true. The Emeralds have been shown to magnetate towards each other, so if Sonic had one and Mewtwo had seven, then Mewtwo's Emerald would likely come back to Sonic. In addition, the Master Emerald can be used to effectively "turn off" the Chaos Emeralds.

Well none of those are attack moves in the first place so I don't think that matters.
Anyway, I think flight should be unlimited since I think it's the psychic equivalent of a bird flapping it's wings.
Telepathy's not really relevant here so IDC about the pp.
Teleport actually has a PP-20. 32 with PP max.
10 pp for mind wipe is fine, unless someone disagrees.
telekinesis is just moving objects with your mind. Almost all of psychic pokemon's special (attacking) moves involve the word telekinesis, I think it's pretty low energy move. So 10 pp would be way too low. Would need to be WAY up there if it's going to be given a PP.

Sounds good.

ok, but is there an upper limit.

Well, in the Galaxy games, there are many, many Lumas, and in Smash, there isn't any limit on how many Lumas can respawn, so I don't believe so.

To my knowledge it's not something that can be dodged outside of using detect, although you can block it with protect. So if Sonic knew it was coming and has some shield/wisp made for specifically blocking attacks in general (I don't count any of his elemental shields), that could work.

Actually, the Fire, Electric, and Bubble Shields all deflect small projectiles, similar to the stars that Swift produces. He also has a regular Shield that would block the attack, but that would dissipate after one hit. Most of the Wisps render Sonic invulnerable to attack (or at least keep him from dying without any Rings) during the transformation.

I kind of disagree but not enough to argue. But using this thinking, I think we'd have to give Bowser the Star Rod.

I'm fine either way honestly.

So you're saying he can out run a black hole he created?

If Sonic could create black holes, yes, but that's not what the Violet Wisp does. When Sonic uses it, he transforms into a living black hole, with a free range of motion, flight, invulnerability, and sucking in everything around him.

I think Sonic could run faster than they chase him, but like I told Drynn I think they'd home onto him unless he moves to a different height plane like what happens with fly or dig. I always thought of Swift being (nearly) avoidable as due to it homing onto characters, not because it moves at warp speed.

Yeah, that seems possible.

Regardless, there's no reason he can't just use one of his attacks to knock it down so it's not that big of a deal.

Yup.

Agreed, just like I don't expect Sonic to be running at mach 2 this whole fight. The area's only 10x10 miles, running "only" a few 100 mph should be fine.

While it might be in Sonic's best interest to move at top speed when creating/closing gaps, dodging attacks, and building up momentum for ramming attacks and such, he also has some up-close abilities that don't rely on his speed, I agree that he doesn't always need to break the sound barrier.

Off-topic, but I just remembered that Mario has Pixls, one of which is called Barry who does, and I quote from the game, "This impenetrable Pixl repels enemy attacks", via a barrier that lasts a few seconds. We may need to reconsider Mario's rank on the tier list, although I still think he loses to Sonic. Pixls have no limit to how many times they can be used.
And before you ask, Pixls are stated in game to have created as sentient tools, so yes they should be allowed.

Hmm... I see the Pixls as in a similar position to Sonic's Wisps (sentient but function as power-ups/attacks), so I think they would be allowed. As for Barry, I've played Super Paper Mario, and Barry essentially creates eight spikes around Mario for a split second while he spins around. These spikes can reflect projectiles, but Mario can't use this non-stop, since I believe it has a bit of lag at the end and beginning. It's best used as a quick shield for when an attack comes rather than a spamming attack, especially since Mario can't perform another action while using this Pixl.

My thing about the burden of proof is if a claim is made, it needs to be proved. I'm not going to accept a claim made by people, regardless of whether or not it's in the game. Let me clarify. In some fictional world, person A says, "He can only die by x." It's a claim, one that may or may not be true in that universe. The description stating which weapons are effective is not from some fictional character. It's still in that respective universe, but one that needn't be regarded as a claim, except outaide of said universe. If no one likes having to prove things, debating is not for you.

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that if someone makes a claim here, it should be proven. However, if someone in a game says something (or lore says something), it's on the opposition to prove it wrong. Lore doesn't need proof; it is proof.

Again. Yes we do. Popstar (the star shaped planet) in Kirby 64 is the same size as Shiver Star which is a post-apocalyptic earth. There's your accurate calculation on the planet size. So on the Milky Way Wishes map Kirby is moving 6731 km per second. That's more than enough speed to catch most.

Again. No we don't. Pop Star isn't in Milky Way Wishes.

Mirror, Leaf, Bell (this one even counterattacks), Ice, Archer, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting are all invincible while guarding. Archer, Leaf, and Bell (maybe all of them, it's been a while) are immune to grabs and only still lava harms a defending Kirby, enemies with lava attacks can be blocked.

Ah, but you see, each of those guards has a flaw. Mirror Kirby's shield only protects him from one side (unless I'm misinterpreting him using a blade of mirrors as a shield), Leaf, Bell, and Ice would impede his vision (which doesn't cope well when you're piloting a super-fast Warp Star), and Archer's guard is just a piece of cardboard, which would only protect him from one side, if at all.

Then shouldn't Sonic be just as overwhelmed moving at such high speeds? Not to mention Kirby can just move slower. He doesn't have to be moving at full speed at all times. He could go much slower and still out-speed a grand majority of the cast.

Because Sonic's speed is natural (as opposed to Kirby's coming from a vehicle), and he's been shown to be able to home in on opponents at light speed with ease (via the Light Speed Attack), not to mention all of the times he's zoomed around in cutscenes performing various high-speed acrobatics.

I know I said I was leaving, but I have some stuff to say first.
@ Munomario777 The character is Rosalina & Luma, not Rosalina & Lumas. And while I'd be okay with her using more, there's no way for her to get them. There's not an infinite amount of Rosalinas, so why should there be an infinite amount of Lumas?

The character's name may be Rosalina and Luma, but the character can be described in-game as Rosalina and Lumas. It's the same reason we're giving the Pokemon Trainer his Pokemon, or to a lesser extent, we're giving Olimar multiple Pikmin. The reason there is such a large amount of Lumas is A) there's no limit in Smash (Luma can die over and over again and a new one will always appear), and B) there are tons of them in Galaxy.

vs . Mewtwo uses Skill Swap to gain Sonic's willpower, then controls him into punching himself until he's defeated. Wisps may be power-ups, but they're still allies that assist, so they're disallowed. If Sonic becomes Super Sonic, Mewtwo controls him into teleporting away from the arena for ten seconds, resulting in Mewtwo's win. If Sonic tries to attack, it uses Protect, Barrier, Light Screen, or Endure.

Since Pokemon can only have one Ability at a time, Skill Swap is only able to swap one Ability (since Mewtwo cannot hold more than that). If Mewtwo used Skill Swap on Sonic, then it would likely take his more prominent trait, that being his speed, not his willpower. We're defining "ally" as a partner or something of the sort that can function apart from the main character. Since the Wisps only serve to fuse with Sonic when he uses them (like power-ups), they're allowed. If Mewtwo teleported him out of the arena, he could simply use Chaos Control to teleport back in. If Mewtwo mind controlled Sonic (which wouldn't happen in the first place due to a combination of the Emeralds' power and Sonic's own willpower), then he would still be able to use the Chaos Emeralds, since they convert the user's thoughts into power. He could use the Emeralds at this point to use Chaos Powers like Chaos Spear, Chaos Control, and the like. Protect, Barrier, Light Screen, and Endure have limited uses, and the latter two don't even block against all attacks.

vs . Mewtwo controls the Lumas (which should really only be one Luma) into becoming black holes and sucking up Rosie. Mewtwo uses Skill Swap to take her immunity to stars/black holes, and Snatch to take her wand. If Rosie uses a Starman, it holds her in place using TK. If she becomes a statue, it controls her into switching back.

Has Mewtwo ever mind controlled multiple targets at a time? If not, then Mewtwo couldn't create a black hole, since Lumas need both a transformer and a Star Bit provider to create black holes. Snatch steals stat boosts made by the opponent on that turn; I'm assuming that you mean Trick. Does Trick affect opponents while they're using Protect? If not, Rosalina's shield would work just fine. If Mewtwo caught Rosalina with telekinesis (assuming he's not too busy being spaghettified by a black hole to do so), she could still create black holes and such since she can fire Star Bits at any time and during any action, or she could simply teleport out. I don't think you could exactly mind control a solid gold statue.

 

[Wintropy]

If Rosalina can summon Lumas and Olimar can summon Pikmin, Palutena should be able to summon Centurions, Ganondorf should be able to summon Darknuts, Duck Hunt should be able to summon a firing squad and Bowser should be able to summon battleships.

Hey, just let Palutena fight with Pit. And Captain Falcon should be able to run people over with his machine. And Ness should be able to OHKO the opponent with PK Flash. And Wario should bleed coins when he takes damage but otherwise remain invincible.

Pac-Man can also instantly vaporise anybody he touches after eating a Power Pellet, of which there are many to be found in convenient corners of the map. And obviously all non-organic beings are immune to Shulk's Monado.

And, of course, all gods or god-like characters automatically win because they're gods. Unless your name happens to be -

Spoiler

Pit, Ike, Robin or Shulk

- of course. :3

 

[Munomario777]

@ Wintropy

The difference between the Lunas and, say, Palutena's Centurions is that in Smash, you're constantly playing as Rosalina and her Luma, while Palutena is by herself.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Wintropy

The difference between the Lunas and, say, Palutena's Centurions is that in Smash, you're constantly playing as Rosalina and her Luma, while Palutena is by herself.

How and why does that make any difference whatsoever?

The title of the thread is "Who's CANONICALLY the strongest character in Smash?"

I don't recall Rosalina ever fighting with her Lumas in Galaxy, or anywhere else in the Super Mario canon.

Honestly, I don't remember Rosalina fighting at all.

Your logic is inconsistent. I suggest you rectify it.

 

[Munomario777]

How and why does that make any difference whatsoever?

The title of the thread is "Who's CANONICALLY the strongest character in Smash?"

I don't recall Rosalina ever fighting with her Lumas in Galaxy, or anywhere else in the Super Mario canon.

Honestly, I don't remember Rosalina fighting at all.

Your logic is inconsistent. I suggest you rectify it.

Rosalina and Luma are, in Smash Brothers, the same character. I don't see what difference it makes if the character didn't fight in their games (which Rosalina did in 3D World, by the way); I don't recall Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, or the Duck Hunt Dog ever fighting in their games, but they're still valid in this discussion.

 

[ccell]

Kirby easy. Watch that death battle of Kirby vs Majin buu. Ganon is a close second tho

Spoiler, Kirby won

 

[Wintropy]

Rosalina and Luma are, in Smash Brothers, the same character. I don't see what difference it makes if the character didn't fight in their games (which Rosalina did in 3D World, by the way); I don't recall Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, or the Duck Hunt Dog ever fighting in their games, but they're still valid in this discussion.

Except you forbade characters from fighting with accompanying entities.

Which Luma is.

They're not the same character, they're two separate characters inhabiting the same roster position. Rosalina's entire fighting style in Smash is based on summoning and fighting alongside Luma, whom is canonically considered to be a separate entity.

I'm sorry, but this just proves my earlier (satirical) point: to wit, these debates are based on arbitrary cherry-picking of canon and semi-canon evidence, while other perfectly legitimate examples are discarded because they "don't work". Do what you will, folks, and certainly do not let me detain you.

 

[Munomario777]

Except you forbade characters from fighting with accompanying entities.

Which Luma is.

They're not the same character, they're two separate characters inhabiting the same roster position. Rosalina's entire fighting style in Smash is based on summoning and fighting alongside Luma, whom is canonically considered to be a separate entity.

I'm sorry, but this just proves my earlier (satirical) point: to wit, these debates are based on arbitrary cherry-picking of canon and semi-canon evidence, while other perfectly legitimate examples are discarded because they "don't work". Do what you will, folks, and certainly do not let me detain you.

Yes, in Mario, Rosalina and the Lumas are usually separate. However, in Smash Brothers, they team up, and two characters are, in some ways, fused into one. Since they team up in Smash, they team up in this discussion. A Trainer has his Pokemon, Olimar has his Pikmin, and Rosalina has her Lumas. Of course, there are other ways of handling these instances (such as having Rosalina and Luma separate), but this is just the way we've chosen to do it.

Kirby easy. Watch that death battle of Kirby vs Majin buu. Ganon is a close second tho

Spoiler, Kirby won

Death Battle isn't canon.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Mirror, Leaf, Bell (this one even counterattacks), Ice, Archer, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting are all invincible while guarding. Archer, Leaf, and Bell (maybe all of them, it's been a while) are immune to grabs and only still lava harms a defending Kirby, enemies with lava attacks can be blocked.

If I'm not mistaken the only thing that can get through Kirby's guards, at least some of them, are certain suction attacks. Like there was a Chameleon type foe in KSSU who I believe could still swallow and spit Kirby out for damage. Possibly Marx's black hole too.
And I think still lava hurting Kirby is more of a game mechanic. Same with Mario and his invincibility star. They don't want you touching the lava, especially Mario, so they have it hurt the player no matter what.

Then shouldn't Sonic be just as overwhelmed moving at such high speeds? Not to mention Kirby can just move slower. He doesn't have to be moving at full speed at all times. He could go much slower and still out-speed a grand majority of the cast.

My point exactly. This whole warp star debate is nitpicking. We all agree that it goes fast, just how fast it goes is only relevant against Sonic, and maybe the Vehicle users. And I don't think anyone would argue Kirby should be above Sonic so...

I've played Amazing Mirror recently and I can tell you that there is a minute amount of lag when you call it. Funny enough, in the same game Kirby actually dissipates the Warp Star instead of crashing it, that's the only example I can remember of him not crashing.

My bad, I meant that if he calls the Warp Star it will already be going full speed and he wouldn't have to worry about start-up lag. He'd just have to worry about lasting long enough till it got there.

It might be a bit less dazing since Sonic would be standing/running/etc. rather than lying on the ground and having to get up again. I looked into it a bit, and I found that Trick doesn't work on Mega Stones (trigger Mega Evolutions) or colored orbs (trigger Primal Reversion), and since the Chaos Emeralds have a similar function, I'd imagine it wouldn't work on the Emeralds either.

Fair enough.

Well, in the Galaxy games, there are many, many Lumas, and in Smash, there isn't any limit on how many Lumas can respawn, so I don't believe so.

Cool.

Actually, the Fire, Electric, and Bubble Shields all deflect small projectiles, similar to the stars that Swift produces. He also has a regular Shield that would block the attack, but that would dissipate after one hit. Most of the Wisps render Sonic invulnerable to attack (or at least keep him from dying without any Rings) during the transformation.

ok.

I'm fine either way honestly.

Going off how we're doing other characters I think it should be yes then, but I'm open to feedback.

If Sonic could create black holes, yes, but that's not what the Violet Wisp does. When Sonic uses it, he transforms into a living black hole, with a free range of motion, flight, invulnerability, and sucking in everything around him.

Then what were you saying about him outrunning a black hole?

Hmm... I see the Pixls as in a similar position to Sonic's Wisps (sentient but function as power-ups/attacks), so I think they would be allowed. As for Barry, I've played Super Paper Mario, and Barry essentially creates eight spikes around Mario for a split second while he spins around. These spikes can reflect projectiles, but Mario can't use this non-stop, since I believe it has a bit of lag at the end and beginning. It's best used as a quick shield for when an attack comes rather than a spamming attack, especially since Mario can't perform another action while using this Pixl.

I'm aware, but I think it's a potent enough item to up his ranking, especially if combined with certain power-ups.

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that if someone makes a claim here, it should be proven. However, if someone in a game says something (or lore says something), it's on the opposition to prove it wrong. Lore doesn't need proof; it is proof.

My feelings exactly.

Again. No we don't. Pop Star isn't in Milky Way Wishes.

Actually...http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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
check the upper left of the map.

Ah, but you see, each of those guards has a flaw. Mirror Kirby's shield only protects him from one side (unless I'm misinterpreting him using a blade of mirrors as a shield), Leaf, Bell, and Ice would impede his vision (which doesn't cope well when you're piloting a super-fast Warp Star), and Archer's guard is just a piece of cardboard, which would only protect him from one side, if at all.

You'd think so, but Kirby and MK both automatically flip to whatever side their being attack from. It's possibly the only reason the shield is in front for mirror is because you're almost never going to be attacked from multiple sides at a time. Ditto for Archer.
I do agree that Bell, Leaf and Ice's guards would either impede his vision if he held them for too long.

If Mewtwo teleported him out of the arena,

Since Mewtwo has the ability to teleport people against their will, this makes him an instant winner against all non teleporters, no?

Has Mewtwo ever mind controlled multiple targets at a time? If not, then Mewtwo couldn't create a black hole, since Lumas need both a transformer and a Star Bit provider to create black holes. Snatch steals stat boosts made by the opponent on that turn; I'm assuming that you mean Trick. Does Trick affect opponents while they're using Protect? If not, Rosalina's shield would work just fine. If Mewtwo caught Rosalina with telekinesis (assuming he's not too busy being spaghettified by a black hole to do so), she could still create black holes and such since she can fire Star Bits at any time and during any action, or she could simply teleport out. I don't think you could exactly mind control a solid gold statue.

We've never seen more than one person mind controlled.
Trick works on opponents using Mirror move (a reflection move) but not Protect. So Idk if just any barrier will work since it's not actually an "attack" but I agree that Rosalina's should.[/quote]

Except you forbade characters from fighting with accompanying entities.

Which Luma is.

They're not the same character, they're two separate characters inhabiting the same roster position. Rosalina's entire fighting style in Smash is based on summoning and fighting alongside Luma, whom is canonically considered to be a separate entity.

I'm sorry, but this just proves my earlier (satirical) point: to wit, these debates are based on arbitrary cherry-picking of canon and semi-canon evidence, while other perfectly legitimate examples are discarded because they "don't work". Do what you will, folks, and certainly do not let me detain you.

I understand your point, but when you're debating how people from different universes are going to behave in a hypothetical fight, don't you think some arbitrary rules are needed? We can't just incorporate everything from canon or semi-canon.

As for Luma's being allowed, Rosalina & luma being one fighter in Smash takes precedence here over the fact they are canonically not separate characters. Same for Olimar, although i assume you were being sarcastic and weren't really arguing he shouldn't be able to use them.

Also, at least in my opinion, Lumas are more like Pokemon for Rosalina, so that's another reason they are allowed while some other allies are not.

And I don't get your Ness example. We obviously have no way to determine if PK flash would ever randomly OHKO someone so the logical thing is to remove it.

Nor do I get your Pac-man example. Are you suggesting there should be power pellets on the field for him to eat even though there's no reason they'd randomly be here?

I do think you make a fair point about Wario. He has been invincible and most of his games, so maybe he should be invincible here.

 

[Munomario777]

Then what were you saying about him outrunning a black hole?

Oh, that's in the ending of Sonic Colors for the Wii. Robotnik's interstellar amusement park becomes unstable and collapses into a black hole. Sonic then runs down the space elevator to earth as pieces of the tower are being ripped off. He does get caught in the black hole after about thirty seconds or so, but he could teleport out with Chaos Control before that happens in this scenario.

I'm aware, but I think it's a potent enough item to up his ranking, especially if combined with certain power-ups.

It could definitely help him block some attacks, but the lag and the fact that he can't really do anything else while using it sort of hinders its potential.

Actually...http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQSEhUTExQWFhUXGRwaGRgXFxwdGxocGxgZHhweHhwZHCggHRslIBwZITEhJSkrLy4uGR8zODMsNyguLisBCgoKDg0OGxAQGywkHyQsLCwwNDQsNCw0NCw0LCwsLDQvLDQsLCwsNCwsLCwsLCwsLCw0LCwsLCwsLCwsLCw0LP/AABEIALwBDAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAABBQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAACAQMEBQYABwj/xABKEAABAwMCAwQGBwUHAQcFAQABAhEhAAMxEkEEUWEGInGBBRMykaHwB0JSscHR4RQWc9LxIyQzNGJyskNTVGODkpOiFUSClLMX/8QAGgEBAQEBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBv/EAC8RAAICAQIEBAYBBQEAAAAAAAABAhEDBCESMUFRBRNx8CJhgZGxwdEyUmKh4RT/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/AMD6Y9OcZ+3X7aeJ4gf29xKU+vuJDesIA9pgBFVFztDxqSQeL4lx/wCPcPlCmoO0n+d4n+Pd6f8AVVVclL8/LoK6pELX95uMLD9q4kdfX3Zn/cfhSp7Q8aYHF8SVT/17jHADd6S9VPq2cZY5DtviN806lTBjydiW3fzyMVaQLL94uNZ/2rimEE+vutOPrUf7wcZH984lnk+vucn3U3NnZ22qpJDHG8vPu/OjvLEEEEu75fujmdusmiimC0T2j4uX4ziNp/aLuzvGqfH83pE9qeNCVp/ab8sX9dcJSzwDrcD8qpxiHaJb3fPjSJZ5dunj7qnD3BZ/vHxv/e+J/wDfufzUR7ScZA/auJ/9+5u3+rpVW4Y7YId3xLHDb0gHi3OrSBbHtNxmn/N8U4b/AK1xmZpZcHG0ufMf3k4wh/2ziOTftFzl/u8up51WJLTuOgI8wYpFnl4fPztSkC0tdpOM/wC98T/+xcfl9rq/lRJ7QcZH984iWk8Rc+PeiqfUWElhAMtzb4vT1lZbSJdiRzbV8AD8alAsEdp+Lf8AzXEHp6+7+C6Ph+1fGJCh+1Xy4YlV644kSnvZ/Oq+6nu+yGJEwJ8eRH4b1GCebTMMf6U4UwWo7R8bn9r4lv49z+ai/eXjGb9p4lzj+8Xf52/oKqQPnymuiM1aQLv95OLdjxnEhLtqN24CMCQlfSpfp301ftXlItcfxNy2CGV666DiQO+x/pWafaW+/wAadU8yQXcAMox/qHIPI3Huy472CxHaXjGB/a+IOQ3r7jjqWX1+FOI7S8UEK1cTxJJYBX7RdGky/d1zVNZtuFHwlzD9cDlNCpRaMDHzzqtJgtE9pOMDH9r4n/37n83y9L+8nGEluK4puXr7pYe+q662Jjq53IxG+1N4gcvkUpAu/wD65xxtlaeJ4opSQ6vX3WDuwz0M9aYT2m4xw/F8Senr7s//ACqqBg5/DelKId8c/Fo50UQWn7ycYXbi+Iz/ANvc6/6qU9ouMyOL4rS//b3Hb/1Zb7qr7FhSnKQpksSc6XgEtid/CpN3hLgSslCtNsgLIIISSSkBw4DlxJ99WvkS0SR2j4xyP2viREA3rrnl9b7udGe0HGSP2ziIP/b3JxvqfltLxU/st2XVxSgu4oosOULUDqWwKQWEvJAmN63quyHC60W7iA6EH2klOrUDoJWhpYEkHn5V4s+sxYpKMuf4OscbkrPM19o+LYNxfE7f/cXDIzhWPucvIpOI7U8YogjiOISwAYX7ssAHlZmo/p30crh7yrawEy6QMFOosevLyqBDSS+3yfKN5r1xcZJSRz5FmntJxn/euJP/AJ9z+avTvoy9LX7vDXFLvXVf26gNVxZIGi2QHUolp5148ouXcTyfpEy9eqfRP/lLn8dX/wDO1SS2CPOu06W43isP6+71H+IrlvT/AGe7N3+Lb1YAE94/lyqVf4ZC/SXEC6SlHrrxgZ/tF4Neg+gQiwUotqAGkKSD0xO48q8mo1sMPwvnX0PBq9dHA+Hr6bGG9N9h+K4QJWsBSHDm1kHwz51nCAwmYOrJGQQwgnElsRXv9i4njU+rJBCoAeZglnckO8bA15327+jtfCA37Ckrs6UunUrWytRKiC/cgb+7Na0+qWR135GtLqnlVtbdzDad2ZwXn2iDMlT7z1G5ppfgwJdIBDBycznZzMCiUjJEggncAeAdztNRya9h7SZwtsqWUOlJYglRGnB3G/KogSH7xh5IYnqetdvLe/8ALelAd+f5lqlAQmfzz06U4ObZLSILZxLyn30KbXQuz+TH5enkhhIAA1MTMtgt4R1PuNg4q9lDAyX0EzOQ4IwMz1pu4kwTALs/Tmw8BijUXXqLpDAuwmBqYFgZOKb9bzEz+LxjccsURBAsgGMj7jke5no7RZi+kHcZHulprkN44YksAwLjkzl/LrVn6R9FKsLtpe3cK7aVjSp21Jcu0x+XhWXJJ13KVRUFqDRAyYxO2D+NAkc30vJbH5nMVL4hStLOCksWh30ZIMwHD0wpDzJGxgcvzHvxWkyA2mByGZUkdC0SxPwo1IABHeJgkfVDAZGYch4+8U2huj9ce6j4tJC5ChhtUFmGnJMM1OoFT3lABpYYZoD/ANd81rOzvoK1xBZSwhnlRx1+6q7sh6e/YrmpSErRcA1HJSkEyAMHoa9LsekLN+3+12StvYKdKXYKklJBMdK9mmWPm9zllcqpbGB9MdiuIthV1CNSU959TEDMDlvjasqVE5nPTZnYdB5716B2z9MKKFBPHJIDp9VbQUrL/aeI8qwSOGUrSGAedRwxgPyEVxzKKlsbhdbiYaXDkHTmY3G9BKn3YOfxNcsK+sD59A3wrlJZml4DEEvjb5O1cTYBHKfv86dSdR0gZdh4+f30ltZBGkh+bY1Aghz4++nFIAxDAn2cseXlL8j0eg0/YjiRbJX667aVrFtberKVJWkhhbWoFS3ADh2BxvTnFcbbPBhIXbuFINpdlVkJuIe5qCgtKSCp9Uyzkd4lzkkuCAc/ZAIPMEsHwThzFKLRYB+TKZTB5YMH+G0VduHhOXl3LiPV/o+4lN6wixbKEFCmKCoa3IJUsKUp9LgBgCXUMNV76a7QIsJAXr1FJQgKKglWxcq7pLn2n3rworUkpIdKpkEgzu+Blop3i/SV26hCLiyoWwQhy7Alznyr5uo0Hm5o5L2Xv0PZDM4wcTXfSN6pQtlK7hWkN32dofEEcmeAKw7BjLGAzbF3nZmHvpdRLPPn4bbV2jDAyPfn8j7q9uLH5ceE4t2zgrp8+desfRWG4W6Ji+oSGMW7QZnLV5SLe7Fv6fia9a+isf3W7ASf2hTjl3LceFWZDzn0+w43iSHcX7pLdLqvg3jVzwfaRKUalhXrSAlJB2diRs0H8Kpe0agOM4qDN68w/wDNOeYcdPzhetlUS6nmJEy+S3Mu8Vyy6WGZLjFLqk/VWep9n+2nCcNdCFJWUpAUSlIVpUPad1CGBxy8qY7d9tOGv8Kq1w9xbqZmNzRpUpWtBCgAyQQkABiH6CvNQcABJdsl2ZLPlt4254pU2lKQWdgofX7rK/0N9qTLDlUx6bHiqny2+5OBW+FVe+ww/g/nPzt41J4f0Wu4FFCVKCA7tgDJ33cVH4iCIDEBmBA8R5v0fEVL4f0hctpWLajpIZRBIcRkGctsz16Cr5kK8gJIYvE5HlI2ofq7RDYMzyoz3iTEcz485+/8KaXv+vuqgJIOWcJy8SfA8+XIVxYgliSPcBsX5+TTSk6vHx2AbzPzNGAXCUjfALpOwghuc9ffAKTLmDgjcBiG77uQGblQ2bbltKjIAIgucbHIBh+s16X2X+jezxCNXE8SbZIcJtgQ5fK3eqzt39Hw4JAu8Pf9dbeQoMscsQQK6PFNc0cvOhdWjCrIECYl2y5xmGahN5xMwBkwA35fGuQvnh3Pl8mlKI2981zOp1y652EAFt2ApPW5gP8Ap7vxpEqY+TbxSlQy0dT0pQEVcLDpjo/605euqWe8okgAOrMAACfCmRtTjQ7Q4B8TP4H3VaAGnqPkU5aWeZG4k52wM0Pl+lFZ1AwwcETjE58KWQUKKpckuAXHPmfHnRhz3G1KLMxdjlgB445il4leUgumGAw7JyAMjB8KmdnEesvoGopV3tBQhJOsIZIkpABYS7jImay3tYbpWde9HKa2UA3DcBICQTMggOHKgQeYBUN6rgzQCkhUl3M4AEYb37ivRlX9d+8o3eGNxdq2tH9mq0VqTKkWzqBSXCg6WefrQcFx60quKWG7ylHSHYOXSHUSSG6vjetSjwujnjm5cxhKHYB3MANkuzDnLYfNKCfaAcb7hLsA6j1PlXaxpLOWBfEd6GjeOZ8BTjA4Ed4gxy8PDAHTnVSOgCndJZgfrMXV7MZmeUzTYVHhGevw8uVPKVkhIBBcKDZA2LsAGhhPOjvWyVkAPHd1l1ey4A0sX8mw8VG0BjTqx1YCZwBz/pTt30cpLFTpSoOCQWLPyEPjemLSwHlm25zt139+KsOO9KXVpSi4VaUDug8nlsxmhSsBYjod599GoMSHxuJB+cPXKQwffx8PzoAZ8Q0/P3VAESQJBBz5EQW+L16t9FDfslxiSPXKk/w7fWvKtG7RtIfYV6t9Fa34W6Z/x1M+W9Xbb4VmXIHn/aVaf2rigVFzfuvja4tiSZG0DNVyy+kultMBOAz+04yDJfnFWXaW2/FcSYJ9fdZ1Y/tVwE7vl8B6rbi22JJnvZVqEncM+4zXRciDvAISvJKWbvAd0bDV4863fZ/sdeFpS9FtQLEJUostPItISfx2rE8NcSpatSipIfAZRaXSkQkdDAD+Xo3ort81hb23NsMDqyw35FvGvieKy1KS8hX3Pt+HRg4O6v8AVb+9iotdjUr4W5cSkW7nDBarj3CQYdggSNCe87ywzWCuMScmQp1E6i+Zw5d5fGTvpPTPpwXU3FBKU3bntKLuUsBpQXZobD1mQp8+88gMf1r16GOZRbyvm/t39d+R4teoLL8HIVCDp1bOA+43Hg+3gaRaRpfd8c8z08OlGtLMe7ByCytsB8bu22acXxKgFogBRD6kJCoB0w0P0/Wvc/keIj2wcgOAHMPGJeGcgPUn0cvSoLUe6IdnDkM3iznyqJ8n591ECzcxLgl+m+zfGqtnYNz6N4m8SEWySTgPl/OrTtNwF+xw+q9c9pwUpSpTPEnDuWasR6Avg8RaSq9oSpQchIKQ4ju6W9qMb19GOq2kA+rKlIcj2Dr1iQkgpe5qbYHTk7fR1HjU444xUd3s36/Q8ksK47XTc+W/nendBYuMBiQREhiWd8/EVO7QpSrir3q0aAFF0uDpYd6QBu5YCoCDqIcPswGOqQkjElsV849V2rA0FnYs7PLPln5ttUrhLdvSoqJ1xp5ZIJJBcHDZpq1Y1D2hJEZJd5boPvpQhMFJVq6RPRpYButZYANkgYJIfUGPdYtnzHvouGAPdIyRLsN48y07Uq7hKQ7u5dzl9/FwfhTbGIFWgcSPCMT0+/8AHakCmnM4OK4nMU6bRcANMg+ZG/UGqUG2NWxLAM3j57tzpUcMXYpURmGETzwHGeQqWNXDLUkhKlAKSXZQ3SWdw4eCKaSAspLjS8htLO7uQJ/3Ez5VlP7EGrdwkgZOGDNhg0tMvtMUQLudRaH70sfLoHO3WhZ4IJdykAnLeBcFvukMaIW5BaRp706QGhu7szZL7PWkihoYqSxQSQw1gJSCAJbGzOrO+9RkkMDBy7tyjr+FPG0zhiHTh9SnABYsIEPhwx5UquIA1Y3I3dyHAJBY5JVksz7VSDRDZjBBIOOnQ/hRoVgAEJcl21EMnvMHYhudIsgpSGZifAj/AHdIDT8ZW5acspRcCXbISWaZHXkzPWQIGCFB2mOaskPLMCMjn4U3cALM0tAMci74Lzyk0ILHqx/X8c04ADIbwLvgDxoKOWloIbDgQ/V5E88UF1ACmBcc+fup5TpKoGMQvEZlmEvQ8VfKyHCQyQO6kCABJYSd6dSobBYCGdy+IxncZr1j6KUEcJcBg+uVBBcf2dvmPPzryYOWyWjwElgPM16x9FBfhbpx/bqYZj1dtpNZlyB5/wBp1JHE8TkKN66HZ3T61b5wcSnZxzqtUUhTAFLHmXBHJ2I2jMZrQcZ6MPEcdxFtJQlR4m6Naz/rWQABjBzlw1N+l+y6bCyhfFWQuCUkLHxY+NXiS2IUXrA5aIj6xd/tFiIJcipnobg7t64mwg/4qgn58JNSuH9AqV7Nyxc/23R9y9JNbn6PuzNwcXbUpJTodWoh2LNnDzUyUsUp9k2YWVqaiuroy3afsRxHBsVd+0cLSIc7EPFUA4NSZDgivqG1w6VoKVALQXDKl5lwetYz0v8ARwFLewUhByFEunwYSK+d4b4lDJHg1Pwy79H/AAdtXgnB8WLdHhK7RFBt8tXtC/opSpQC+IzshAf/AOR/Cst247B2eD0C3xDqMqF1SUgDYhg+RXqWu088nBjlb9GZWPLGPFNUefU4oOAAAWPTUSdokiPJ+tX3o7swm8oIRxdkrzpSFH4s1U3H8MbNxVolKiglyncxvnYR416FJN0BtN4DqAGDMkyGOHfkScgbVLtemuIA0evvC2T3ki4Q8nZ2Jk5qCSTJLnqZrj4j5+fhVohynU5MuRO7l88yefSkUJy855/jNOIQwJcRMsxwPOdulNaoqlHApj3HiRhw0/fTZJnmaVvn5xRkzt8P6UAhU7kkucuc+NJHWlGK6eYoDobrDYxORzpUSXliWfHxbz8qEjePzo9IflOBIEPE/nUAkq+0R7/HyejUVMXJUCAXaQ0ByzxhsY5UhOZyPD3jcZzS6nDABy46l8bSRtRA4pIl2b7QOfshxJY4xNKhYAAfJS4l+6IOpodzh2jNK7uCkbw3skB+gGFQepLsKVSWAU4cMXc6mjGyQNjBjwrXIghuI2KmCYaCCc7SXLHECgSoMczsCRjc56++l4xOhSkhLBhE7gEP1wWw9M6TtIG7QH+7BqAJa4TOBgBm295DF6ByfGM9POjCnMNXDHShQVttI6ifvw9cFliPPA5URfp0rpfbrigASTieXly8KUtH5Uox0+NcoGMUAietel/R1xSkcPdDJD3lKYYDotlhOK80CPD5616F9Hqn4e4YD3lFhgdxFZkDJdpT/fOIbIvXjyP+KowX/WpnA+kxxRTY4iyq+osm3ctn+2T0cxcHRXvqB2lT/fOKLx6+6Mh/8RW2W611u2qwtK7huIVCkae6roXOBUkrXzIz0X0N9Gy0qe9cCEZHd73gWJCT5mvRPQ3oy1waSUJBfSNQclnkx+FeaegfpEu6k+sQlaRDE949SWY+6t56N9J2uIm2dJyQYZ/GDX5/xGXiUcfFlVw/x5fXr9z1aZaRzqP9Xz5/ToXtqwxdCiUKd0kuJmOU09cuqSoEAqSzEA9cgHNQLF/SW7y+iU8+ZLDegHGqDghSCDIIx54+FfEi8jfG17/J72o8kWHpDSm2q5cDhLqAAnEDxOK8H7TJ9deXdvqCHOAHUE7JCegbLV7Zet27qCk6llQIBJcjqNg0YrxTtYVWLyrN9OvSd4JTkEKE/eK/SeBvC1NL+v8AXy+vM+Xr1kUo/wBv7KK/6YFtJt8Kg20kMpZL3V+JEJHRNU5I5VcH0QLySvhVFbSq0of2qeoaFp6ielVChMn5FfYikuRyQnl5/PzNKkgEOPEPn5/GuHi3vpF7THw+ZatFHuGvAagUhbpIGonuvvkYpihHhRpxnyqUDvLypfL9K7z/AEpwCHcZy8t5+PjFUDY/KdjSafe5cBmGOR5v8K7UdvNqJJjoPzlqA4Bhu+xBw2Y91KBI5uIDvh3513Nuuzx4t8Yq67NcEi6o+sLpDd0hgTJYt4/GsSlwqyN0rKVJkDcyGmXgeL/fTqEzDqzAEs+4Hsy2OdelehuBtqtlKraDDgBAJbq7KADNHOsd2k9F+ovAWiSNIKRp9ncTGHyZ/DEMqk6MRyW6KjVpKiB3QYKQ6dQDe1nfL5ILbU2FJBYhgdORLM78iMbS21EAoBWqCxcFPUMB1g4DDzqKTl+Xv3mu9mwozzxOK4kfO9F6tQcHYeOetAodahTjmKVJ99IB5Vs+CshPBQnh1kaCLibqkXAm6dK7bKDqwX0uA5bcVVVpMxOXCrKzsr6CRxNxOtTIHeWAoPpGomMhXdOeYNei3uwXDKQhFsB7Q9tRDrICld5sunvN9kjk1Zn07cPDFNsWDa0qUUhNwKQLa2KQFoAJLkySRsN2k2+3K7aGCNm/xr0+65Xz9RHO5/A6o92n08suPjj+TDemuA/Z79y19lRAJIMOWdt22qAegNW/aXi13L6vWJ0qBYp1qX19ok/fVV5/pXtg24q+Z5WqdCJ6/wBK9A+jsf3df8U/8LdYB+v61v8A6PB/d1/xT/wt0kQy/priPV8ffXpCtPEXSxwf7VWaLjO0Kbp1K4WyVc+9/NTHaW2/F8UqWF+455PdW341VqTvsXbyZ6JJgtLXpYhTpShHRKQ3xetv2C7RqHF23JVqcMTmP0rzQYipXo7j1WbiLicoUFB8Qcef41Z745Q7po5cHxqXZ2fS3GekkaVLKtADHVENzJ67VjPS/b8F02wCn7SvaPhyHSvNfT/bG/xcKZFsSLaSWfmXyap18Yrd/wCtfL8O8LxYrln+Jvp0X8s9Gq1GTJSx7Lv3PS//APRimF2gobAFj8RVF2q7aWeK0FPCgqS+o3O9HIETWJuXSaGva9JgWTzIRp+r/F0c4zycHDJ2jSej+1gsK1WuEsJWzahqf4nwqn9Icaq9dVcWlIUsuQkMPFt4f31DYffSsH3rsopblCurYAO8e7Le7rzigAEkliBAbMsfCHM0du4zbs8NBeD4R+lIlIDk+TK5ueTlhGzFnqgIB0gEkSW+zs51E/Dwpu4liRyMY2PMFvdFEtcDoGwwG3vYAk9aL1YTl+RAbkGYz91AAPKB75pZmBTltAUDIEtj7TNOSA3x2ohKjIcuTB5OY6Sc+FGwNkgtpnScszh4Jkjy6b1zb8+nXbn5VddnfQF3jCoWgB3So99gQHO5ZnaOlVfE2FoUdSiWLEByS7viJMZ33rKkm6RLBFpjIJBdtPtbgOkSCSwk+Rqb6NWEaie6ebtgciA0YGSxqCEnU2qZIlQ0kPkkDvAAe8US+86nlyUkAgd1sAJIx1EmeunFNUw9zScP6ft21awgBUyQohR3gwc461N9DfSXf4YrCLaFWySSFHvSZSlTEMXMMYJZqxiARABhmBKnclscyWLCkUsNkk6SkZhjAzyjk3M1hYo7oz5ceZedsO1dz0gpKrltKdJUxEkgswKmDgSB0PRznT4eVO3kNLNyYv1/EbbU2/XzrcaSSRsfs8epCVJSogKTpUxyC7A8wOXyB4rjFXG1nURDk5ADJHgAI8aYUnn47zSET1FUlIJw/SkikIbrQ7fMUKTeD4sICgwZQDw5LKBZ37oLZzyq34z0nYRpNlKVEoUlaTqISSchSwC4EY3PnnX/AK0RD5P61hwT3OkcsoqkOcRfK1FRJJOCo7bA+VNxSBW1KdprZzOcfO1eg/R6f7uv+Kf+CK8/Eb/rXoH0ef5df8U/8LdZkDI9prQPF8UXD+vvQXf/ABFYYVAuKKSCA0ODuXlyR5/CrLtFafjOJ/j3XLOz3Vtjw3y9VtoKJALhIYGISFF/vouQGlDcmh3owmWAf9HJ+6i9ViC0bHJx7/jWgM7GnUF4+LcgYjnXQxO7hp2npQ21MQcMX86gDVmD8G+6m1b/AKfhTmkR4ORyk0Mee1VAHlXENRpJwnKoIHIkR7wKK8nBJcnL7Fy4oABii0qkgOE/WAgPhzt5tT6LcBKi2VNuO4DzMGMimWjU0EkYiAOQbyqWQVm6h8tBOmIJHSaK1YGl2Ly8YAALiRid96b07Mfi+KkqLM4KipKTLgqcM3MjwzE0oBehPRn7TeRaKggKysh0pDsSQ4j8q9H4r6JFC0VovAqSO8hVs+3o1AAIKva7slstmsZ2S9II4fiEXFFGlNzSpKgkgJXClAqCiCNIkBTcxmvXvSvaDhblolK7bLSEBSLiQp021FKmbJUpKJQBAD7DllclKCXV7/6Mtveux4fYFy0pSZtkOlTuACHCgfrO8eMU2Ed0rIJJOnVDBWYHtez57Uar4K1rKiS503C7uEnSYbkAY3eoilJZLJAO5l8sxlnHNhmuyVGiWpBJQklPMODoYqgaQHSH1AxTRtyZZizE96IbUA3OPOhC091+8ACdJdncuHDGQBNRhBDg+HP3YigJnqiHG+kKBbIZyeYcH9a5HCvbNwqSSDCBBw5LM2n9KjrL9RD9CzNR27epmG4BI1Fg8FkvEswG3Os70UPiuKXcA1d4IAAVPdEsD8fdUUJc/MVKucMAn20A6iCk6ge6CQSCN/vIgVHQcjcsM9d/hVqiJ9hwoLjWXDc3cAQAQ7PgHFAbhZmBJLuc+/M0aAU97cMZcZnZoIjNCbRZyAGD7uxwfDA91ANkGk2pwWyQCXYvPgHPuFcqy2Ry8JDj4VSghTHqx504lIMhuTE9B502tngvjaceOKK2dsSDjDCfKZ8BUAhEY86Hf+sfP4UWmN/dFIw51QIkE16F9Hf+WX/FP/C3WCQCcAMI1F9y4Jb3VvPo8H93X/FP/BFZkEZTtOf71xXshuIu7nUf7Rfk1RTpSw0q1KA1AiCytvrSA/QxUvtCknjOKAnVevA7T61RAcxsDtVZbt7vOc9fHIPzvToQO6kkFQckkk5cB9y8gvk0qrAcByznvbGHEOwIxHOj/arkrKkgqCm7o+tCgAAyeYgNkNXG5cHccO7kMHdKT9bcEbPPWm4GLqZgNDnLiN3GN/PNCbZDPD4fBlpqUm3hyCFae82AILxgDIfkaZtWipyGEu3RiQwMmH5+M1QN2rjPJGMfPI0qQTsJ8t6e4mWGASTv3QWkCBpL8hgUibQEET3nYt7JcsXIJby6E1ULCt2RLgkiRpDjnKtsNjzauugEjmcnLvMc26RFEnJEjxSSXSmRqLGHBIMeQpEJnB+oG70uIGXOxbfZhSgMiJ3TPsvvuD+Ip1J1OSCXmJI2Y7DU4DtsKK2rTpLqliClTEd5suQlRYSfdvQqTCkjAJLRMT3jkBkx1ildwKbbMeeC/diH1ZB2aMg8q4XNJPdSzsUu4wRmd3Ygjnim5Kt+hchn5vgY8qW4UgkGWYAp7uAzwGPU7+dQBW1HSQQ4CYYAyVQ52GSxcPtyO4DDtJfICSATJWJJJ1CWb3MCw6QhLFzIwygSPaJyQAWPlUv0D6FvcbfFiwCpZPtEsAn6xLnq9VOwRLlmSB3W2VBBkkCWM85MNvQ3UsBBc7/VIwwjIIId9q9I9NfRjbsqRaF5d27pHrdCAyTE94yTy67PWa9Ndi79pJWEkpSJG4AJnx3LRNdlpsjjxpbe+hx/9GNS4W9zLnPMuzb+UfrNKu4+kNiP6z+G1clQ8GLvuIpFIIyC/wDT864HckcNaJXodIJdPeICZBGQer+6mrF021ODIILjYgguGMtkPTIz08enTeiSH25mnWwTLvpJSvWBSitKlFc7rZgosRLE86jOw+sQ4IBcDkY+Dg0Nu3zjefPZpMeEU5xC0nwKiSyWIxicHLRQh1hIKw4ChGrRDCHZ2AI6w/N6IKCgAEqZwHmJJIEsXyx5GgNlRACoY6ZLNqkQTAydhNchZAZKm1QZH2gcvABAmgO/Z5MFmiCxYjq7GfPlsaeHDl0kSQQx7oZ3zOmXB/oq1rI0aoTqJSwDEkBTDfAPRnilKlLLquOCdIURySAHaQCmOrbtUBGSgkjrjl8YoSP6fl871Jup7sBywEJyEjvGMEMAfM9Stu0AMg6hGCQ2kv0IHXYg8qoGSvALvidm+7w6UqbZIfux8c/l4B/GiUHWSeYOPaTqZwCZPTx5UZSkDEhxliGLSkMXLjMeLGrQDCAGOksftRqZiwbYxLnD9K3H0fj+7r/in/hbrClt5PecMkMyQCzQW5xnrW87Af5df8Tw/wCnbqSRUZLtCsDi+Jgv+0XVO5YNcV9WJHjvVVcW5BZMMOim32z1q37TXAOLvgkkevulSdn9avA2LNNV/C3UpQoFDlWFz3QM9C4IfxrKewH7ttKUau6QoK7oUXQ5YEkjOMZD1F9fGBqdwpzAZm5+BJpojcwwiPaL7v8Af0EV2pL4OnYPhxEtzaqkQk+sSwIYMBq0gZxv4ODLE02i4SpyAp2B1By5kmSSTHxOK4W1EJBUEggSY7pVk82I2c+NJqkezLYEd4chMVbAq9YDP3DD5DwfBSm/TEOLJJGpgwHtSnYCA5SGbz8qZSpMuzwRAYs/Tl796NTBiAwkEoLwROd2eGG/OtWBVCcDKoZMMnxbmYw4ya5Inb6ssHkF93Lz4w7YofWpfDzBO2OTPhmwKVKxpBLwwY6SGkgY5F5gkHLVbAVkqBdLaiAwDAGdJdlMxbfL43oVuEMMMDOCX2BiA4gH63VkTdYAgFIYjumfeeZblvQW2+0BIhzJILHlEzs+9ZYCt8QXc94BwxJZmPMmHJNDaJfusTsGB+Bj+lItsgODs8iTn538qRIDy/iPmf1oUdRcGkshThQL6mSI5Dd3YvvWy+i3jUW+PQpakICUK7xRncdSVP5NWHUpWC7QfcGBo+HWpMhwyncM4Ix9/gfKrF07MuNo+o03fWWze4Y2bnFZKcBYjukmYADE8qh3F8cvhbyl2rFrUhZZRClSC+IgYnYV4FwHbHirStaFgK2IEyMRtQ8b2o4viCy76wFZDkBzv0NdXKHtHFY2UakyZ+fL8K4F2AjAh/nypbgAZtxuxY4nzFJrdo/MuetcT0D3DcKVqCUnvGACwdWpgASfiYDU/d9GrFsLbud5IIl1h9SYmACXMNvTHB8QEGUhSQdWkpBdiIJyAQJanLvE21BfcCSVFSSnVAIICGdgmXfO1Pf/AEy7sj6ecY22Iz+jTVtwfowqtG9cKk2AoDupClFR5bDqX6VVEjJG8wGZtq9l7MWbdvhFXLPeSrSWUAQg4UQCGIcfGvn6/VPBBV1Pp+H6WOZuUunT5v8AR5z6T9GIBSOGClrchVlVslSTicj+lVieCNu76q5oB7rqd9EjOkvEuPxr230TeUvUggFOkl2AY+WQTDda807Y8GLaSfVBOu46ZBCSHSsT9VXdI8K8uj18skvLl7/B6tX4fCMJTjs19qMzxSgO6NMP39yCX/DeWM4pBfBW5SkJ3SA+Q0Ax1FRxpA3Jb/0l4ZsxR2S5SBCn9omJ5vDZr7FHxB25cYMXDh8wXfYZYsejUNtSmlg0ggBzBJcpk53/AAakRbadYfYaeiiegkAddVIhbvjrA3Ez0b5NVMBoUsKk94ZBIBIIklSvZLEAHrSIwTqEh20yA7OFM7DkJzDOaRFxMDu4EKdnD8h1j44risBwQrdg/dDsfZAh2GCNq0QPnO6mO/shgWmOvKN63fYD/Lrlv7Tb+Fb+zFYH18uARLumD1L7GWYBq33YIj1Fxm/xeYP/AE7e4YVJMpkO0IfjOJcsPX3Z5f2qjOzfnVRqhvn+n6Vben7+nj+IUEgtxFw6T7Ja6cuenxqruEqJIAn7IgeArKAhECc52IaOQpNO+ztmecjP4Uidj15/J2qRb5nPUwXM4nxaZrQAtlkkN7XWQQYpxOQGMtBYkuIj9ZegKYOHMiS492OcgYp24cZZ+pMpk94MX68oapzAL6nclnSS5D8tx+g61yEo9WoFcgjSnS+qTLwRFD6w9X+/O+0PigCSSwGY8JpzA2Pk/PzFOLEZBJcTszTnqRy/BVJzzB8cg7iOlC048qoJIuj2gnuwNOADpMnLzqZzzGHaMVty7wkx5/F6VKeeNyBI8nH310gM/VozIEScc+fmYDrTTsdv6+6N3pCI/D5+YpErAEA4n3+EDHyakWrjJGxcFJ5ZBJ8YHl50A2mWECfalx0hw3lTljSQoKWUxAbVqIIYdN6bXYYE6piDEHz57cvdTVt5ajQEHz8/OaetrZJ7wfql+eDgfjQDGIia5jyqgkKBJHtlekBndxpbbYlvKj9Jei7lhQt3UFCmSZ3CgDnAzUUjpPzNSOJvKulS1ErKdI1PDJZOTswHIzWPitVyBHSBu+8hi5GN/CnLNpOlRUvSWGlLPqc+6AabtvIlhIAch/wgZ6VyrkFLbueuWgbTWmAUZD4+fnyrUWu3PFW0C1bWlITAUEyR57Gs3cEQQZ2frzoEw8CRv9/jXPJhx5a41Z2x58mNNQdWbThvpD4hFpSFhKlGEsnTt7RCQxrL+k/SVzibmu6rPJ2G0Co9riSEKQNOlTZAKodmLPvTSknLVzxaXFik5RikzeTV5ckeGT2OXv8AePxFcUtBaDsXHWRDUVt3bIh233p0kaWDbPmMv9/vbNeg8xyjqyHYEODkDGej+6l1wc8s4cQOePuFcA5JAB7pw7QBP4l4pbqjqMvOxgggTzmKVtYAusQFEue7+RHzAbd67jChwUqUrujUVDdpGTFCVkjfbPP+jUgTDwPMT0bfG3R80ACPFq9C7AN6i4BgXVAYnuo5Ej41gCmYEGZDGRlnMedb76PP8uv+Kf8AhbqSBju03+c4k/8Aj3dv/EVVehm98Tyz8+dbn072ftq4q+rUsFV247FIysv9WoVzsvZhisQHkfy0T2Bl095TnvEkE5Dvn49PhS6NxuwYSTnDvuMjnFalPZq04lZ0z9WZ3ZLml/dy2X79yBsUh2O/dp0sGVKPMEEhtsu507MI67Ui5dy5BkvBhoidp61q/wB3bTZXuPqy7f6abV2btR3lx/t657k1q6BmLaR8IPUDEZ91NJSTADkwB448a2Nj0Gi2vWhawqfsNL7aGpk9mrRJ71z3p/lrNsGVJIcORsRO3PaKMJ9zgOdiX5Hoa0v7tWvtXPen+WjHZu0AGUt3Jdw+3+n5c1bBmvVpZLKSSX3YCWD6mbcv91NLG34vjPlBrXHs7bK+8q4rOSPwTQ3OztvZSwz4I/lqWDKJSGPPYuZw4jo52xR8PkQVf6RvHUbZrSnszajvLHOUzJ/0/dyox2btwNVwMYIKQdt9L0sGZurZm0nBeDkbueZkNmaYclhvgAAT7sma2I7LWkgrC7uoKAyndJJ+rTKuzVoRquc3cP8A8flqJgy1hLqYg7uN4B5kfL0vqiEkkAYYksfIbu422rTo7NW39u570/y05d7NWnHeXIH2dwP9NWwZS6kA7sQ4cNnfeKcUQU6jl2YiCyRu8NjzrQ/uxa+1c96f5aL93Lf27nvT7vZx0qMGZ9YA+kltQaJYEsXGDjHOhcHpnrt5Q/u61qf3atfbue9P8tcrs3b+1cnqnf8A/GmwMyQXGoZjvQIDCekfjTSyHx8/PyK1tzs1a+1c23TyfdNDb7N2xhdyQRlP8tLBki4Hz99OkiQDBfzGQCHgOB+tazh+y9ks6rhDmHDY6JobXZm06TruZG6f5aWDMIS4hOWG7yCGA357e6u0EhiYhlEKYOX2S5322itUezdoB9S3Jc+zzIb2cHcU2ezltgdVz3p5/wC2qDMLdtRgy8F1SAWjTHligUzvzmC+3M1rD2ft6n1LDFx7P8uOlCOzdsONdyc+zz/20b6Ay90QCBLseWzb5amwgsVbBg/i7ddjWu/+hJ0er9Zd0O+nUlnx9mmT2Ztfaue9P8tRNgy4bd/lomvQuwCW4df8Q4/h2+RqmHZm19q570/y1tOyXohFu3cCSpvWqO32U8gBRsH/2Q==
check the upper left of the map.

Ah, I see.

You'd think so, but Kirby and MK both automatically flip to whatever side their being attack from. It's possibly the only reason the shield is in front for mirror is because you're almost never going to be attacked from multiple sides at a time. Ditto for Archer.

While Kirby can turn to block attacks behind him, some attacks might come quickly enough that Kirby couldn't react in time. Also, with homing projectiles (such as Samus's homing missiles) and multiple fighters (such as Lumas) in play, Kirby could definitely get attacked from multiple angles.

Since Mewtwo has the ability to teleport people against their will, this makes him an instant winner against all non teleporters, no?

Not to my knowledge, since Mewtwo does that via mind controlling the opponent into teleporting away, and that doesn't quite work against non-teleporters.

We've never seen more than one person mind controlled.

Okay then.

Trick works on opponents using Mirror move (a reflection move) but not Protect. So Idk if just any barrier will work since it's not actually an "attack" but I agree that Rosalina's should.

In that case, shouldn't any invincible/protected/shielded character be immune?

I understand your point, but when you're debating how people from different universes are going to behave in a hypothetical fight, don't you think some arbitrary rules are needed? We can't just incorporate everything from canon or semi-canon.

As for Luma's being allowed, Rosalina & luma being one fighter in Smash takes precedence here over the fact they are canonically not separate characters. Same for Olimar, although i assume you were being sarcastic and weren't really arguing he shouldn't be able to use them.

Also, at least in my opinion, Lumas are more like Pokemon for Rosalina, so that's another reason they are allowed while some other allies are not.

And I don't get your Ness example. We obviously have no way to determine if PK flash would ever randomly OHKO someone so the logical thing is to remove it.

Nor do I get your Pac-man example. Are you suggesting there should be power pellets on the field for him to eat even though there's no reason they'd randomly be here?

Agreed.

I do think you make a fair point about Wario. He has been invincible and most of his games, so maybe he should be invincible here.

I assume you're talking about Wario Land 2 & 3. However, those games aren't exactly canon, since they take place in Wario's dreams (as revealed by the game over screens).

 

[Nerdicon]

While Kirby can turn to block attacks behind him, some attacks might come quickly enough that Kirby couldn't react in time. Also, with homing projectiles (such as Samus's homing missiles) and multiple fighters (such as Lumas) in play, Kirby could definitely get attacked from multiple angles.

False. Kirby's sprite will try to switch direction to match the enemy attacking him, if he's being attacked from multiple directions he will still be protected. This could argue for an extremely fast reaction time though as he turns around as soon as he's hit.

Again. No we don't. Pop Star isn't in Milky Way Wishes.

It's the big rocky star shaped planet with rings around it. Pretty hard to miss.

Ah, but you see, each of those guards has a flaw. Mirror Kirby's shield only protects him from one side (unless I'm misinterpreting him using a blade of mirrors as a shield), Leaf, Bell, and Ice would impede his vision (which doesn't cope well when you're piloting a super-fast Warp Star), and Archer's guard is just a piece of cardboard, which would only protect him from one side, if at all.

Mirror Kirby's shield covers his entire body, the mirror projectiles create a one way reflector shield that only protects against projectiles. Leaf seems like Kirby would still be able to see a little, and Ice would let him keep his vision (the ice crystal is translucent) so that's not a problem. Not to mention in examples like Stone (Kirby 64/Anime) Kirby can see just fine while being encased in a large lump of stone. While Archer looks flimsy, it doesn't change the fact that Kirby's invincible to literally everything (other than pits) while using it. Not to mention it gives him perfect vision as evidenced by the Hitman attack (Kirby shoots from behind the cardboard).

Because Sonic's speed is natural (as opposed to Kirby's coming from a vehicle), and he's been shown to be able to home in on opponents at light speed with ease (via the Light Speed Attack), not to mention all of the times he's zoomed around in cutscenes performing various high-speed acrobatics.

How does that change anything? Or even make sense? Just because someone's speed is natural doesn't mean they're better at controlling it automatically. Not to mention the Warp Star is controlled by thought so it simulates natural speed anyway.

 

[Munomario777]

False. Kirby's sprite will try to switch direction to match the enemy attacking him, if he's being attacked from multiple directions he will still be protected. This could argue for an extremely fast reaction time though as he turns around as soon as he's hit.

That seems more like it's just a game mechanic than anything else; why would Kirby be protected from the side that the shield isn't facing?

It's the big rocky star shaped planet with rings around it. Pretty hard to miss.

Yes, I know.

Mirror Kirby's shield covers his entire body, the mirror projectiles create a one way reflector shield that only protects against projectiles. Leaf seems like Kirby would still be able to see a little, and Ice would let him keep his vision (the ice crystal is translucent) so that's not a problem. Not to mention in examples like Stone (Kirby 64/Anime) Kirby can see just fine while being encased in a large lump of stone. While Archer looks flimsy, it doesn't change the fact that Kirby's invincible to literally everything (other than pits) while using it. Not to mention it gives him perfect vision as evidenced by the Hitman attack (Kirby shoots from behind the cardboard).

• Mirror: And it seems rather hard to see through based on video footage.
• Leaf: Okay, try driving a car at a hundred miles an hour with leaves covering your windshield and let me know how that works out.
• Ice: Ice in general is slippery, so Kirby would likely slide off of the Warp Star.
• Stone: This slides on slopes, so it would slide off of the Warp Star as well.
• Archer: It seems like attacks pass right behind the cardboard if this arrow is any indication. If the enemy was good at aiming (or could actually see Kirby behind the scenery), then they could attack behind the cardboard. Either way, it would probably fly off at high speeds.

How does that change anything? Or even make sense? Just because someone's speed is natural doesn't mean they're better at controlling it automatically. Not to mention the Warp Star is controlled by thought so it simulates natural speed anyway.

Sonic's natural prowess over his speed has been shown in multiple cutscenes and animations where he's seen manipulating his speed for high-speed acrobatics. Sonic's prowess over his speed is also demonstrated by the fact that he can precisely home in on any target at light speed (AKA the Light Speed Attack). If something is natural, then it's more familiar and thus easier to control. Which is easier, walking forward or riding a bike?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Oh, that's in the ending of Sonic Colors for the Wii. Robotnik's interstellar amusement park becomes unstable and collapses into a black hole. Sonic then runs down the space elevator to earth as pieces of the tower are being ripped off. He does get caught in the black hole after about thirty seconds or so, but he could teleport out with Chaos Control before that happens in this scenario.

oh ok

While Kirby can turn to block attacks behind him, some attacks might come quickly enough that Kirby couldn't react in time. Also, with homing projectiles (such as Samus's homing missiles) and multiple fighters (such as Lumas) in play, Kirby could definitely get attacked from multiple angles.

I was wrong on this, it actually does cover his whole body regardless.
As for Archer, it's only cardboard yes but I think if it was a fully 3d game it would cover his whole body. Given the animation, they'd have no way of showing it covering him completely.

Not to my knowledge, since Mewtwo does that via mind controlling the opponent into teleporting away, and that doesn't quite work against non-teleporters.
Not true, he teleported away Ash and company at the end of the movie, none of whom are teleporters. He does all this while simultaneously flying away and using telekinesis to lift away a few dozen pokemon away with him.

In that case, shouldn't any invincible/protected/shielded character be immune?

That's what I'm thinking.

I assume you're talking about Wario Land 2 & 3. However, those games aren't exactly canon, since they take place in Wario's dreams (as revealed by the game over screens).

I wouldn't agree they're not canon, and 3 takes place in a magical globe, not a dream, but you could say being in a dream/magical globe is why he couldn't die. So I'm fine with him having HP.

• Mirror: And it seems rather hard to see through based on video footage.
• Leaf: Okay, try driving a car at a hundred miles an hour with leaves covering your windshield and let me know how that works out.
• Ice: Ice in general is slippery, so Kirby would likely slide off of the Warp Star.
• Stone: This slides on slopes, so it would slide off of the Warp Star as well.
• Archer: It seems like attacks pass right behind the cardboard if this arrow is any indication. If the enemy was good at aiming (or could actually see Kirby behind the scenery), then they could attack behind the cardboard. Either way, it would probably fly off at high speeds.

I disagree on Ice and Mirror. Ice, he is generating said ice from his crown. If you look at the animation, it looks his feet are almost touching the ground. Plus, when Ice Kirby runs he slides to move faster without any ice appearing on his feet, so I believe he could just generate the ice so his soles aren't icy, allowing to be fully guarded but not slip off.
And mirror is just covered in a rainbow tint. If you've ever looked through a rainbow before they're almost transparent.
And I agree Sonic can control his speed better than Kirby, but the warp star is thought controlled so I don't think steering it is comparable to a bike. As long as he's conscious and not dazed his control over it should be fine.

 

[Crystanium]

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that if someone makes a claim here, it should be proven. However, if someone in a game says something (or lore says something), it's on the opposition to prove it wrong. Lore doesn't need proof; it is proof.

In Metroid Prime, the lore says planet Zebes' mass is "4.8 trillion teratons". It's wrong. Just because you think something is lore does not mean it's correct. "Bare assertion. The most basic way to distort an issue is to deny that it exists. This fallacy claims, 'That's just how it is'." (VanderMey, Randall et al., 2011, Comp, p. 183)

Let's put it another way. You see a few examples of a character being unharmed. You assume nothing can harm said character. Hasty generalization.

 

[Munomario777]

I was wrong on this, it actually does cover his whole body regardless.
As for Archer, it's only cardboard yes but I think if it was a fully 3d game it would cover his whole body. Given the animation, they'd have no way of showing it covering him completely.

Well, until they do make a 3D game where that is the case, we must take Archer as-is.

Not true, he teleported away Ash and company at the end of the movie, none of whom are teleporters. He does all this while simultaneously flying away and using telekinesis to lift away a few dozen pokemon away with him.

Source please?

I wouldn't agree they're not canon, and 3 takes place in a magical globe, not a dream, but you could say being in a dream/magical globe is why he couldn't die. So I'm fine with him having HP.

I agree that Wario did have that dream canonically, but what takes place in that dream doesn't apply in canon to Wario outside of his dream. As for 3, my mistake. I'm glad we're on the same page, though.

I disagree on Ice and Mirror. Ice, he is generating said ice from his crown. If you look at the animation, it looks his feet are almost touching the ground. Plus, when Ice Kirby runs he slides to move faster without any ice appearing on his feet, so I believe he could just generate the ice so his soles aren't icy, allowing to be fully guarded but not slip off.
And mirror is just covered in a rainbow tint. If you've ever looked through a rainbow before they're almost transparent.
And I agree Sonic can control his speed better than Kirby, but the warp star is thought controlled so I don't think steering it is comparable to a bike. As long as he's conscious and not dazed his control over it should be fine.

Ice Kirby's guard looks like it covers his whole body, and ice is slippery, so it would slide. If you look just before that point in the video, you can see Kirby skating, and ice does appear underneath his feet when he skates; he seems to be a bit slippery as a result.
Actually, Mirror Kirby's guard seems like it would obstruct his view quite a bit, especially when it comes to piloting a Warp Star at hundreds of miles per hour.
While the Warp Star may be thought controlled, it still wouldn't solve the problem of Kirby being able to manage all of that speed.

In Metroid Prime, the lore says planet Zebes' mass is "4.8 trillion teratons". It's wrong. Just because you think something is lore does not mean it's correct. "Bare assertion. The most basic way to distort an issue is to deny that it exists. This fallacy claims, 'That's just how it is'." (VanderMey, Randall et al., 2011, Comp, p. 183)

Yes, that's a typo. It was meant to be around the size of Earth, but it was accidentally made much larger because of a typo. Pointing something out as a typo is a way for the opposition to disprove a statement made in lore.

Let's put it another way. You see a few examples of a character being unharmed. You assume nothing can harm said character. Hasty generalization.

Actually, I saw examples of the character shrugging off blows and saw the lore state that the character can only be harmed by select weapons, and then took the lore as true. Due to the hierarchy of discussion (game creators > lore > gameplay etc.), lore must be treated as true until proven false. It's the opposition's job to do said proving of falsity.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, that's a typo. It was meant to be around the size of Earth, but it was accidentally made much larger because of a typo. Pointing something out as a typo is a way for the opposition to disprove a statement made in lore.

That's the consensus in the Metroid fanbase, of which I helped, but even then, why dismiss it in favor of what I or others think when it's written right there? At least you're admitting that canon can be wrong.

Actually, I saw examples of the character shrugging off blows and saw the lore state that the character can only be harmed by select weapons, and then took the lore as true. Due to the hierarchy of discussion (game creators > lore > gameplay etc.), lore must be treated as true until proven false. It's the opposition's job to do said proving of falsity.

Except, said character has never demonstrated an upper limit, and so it is an assumption that said character can only be harmed by select weapons. By that logic, werewolves can only be killed by silver bullets. If I went in the past with powered armor, I would be considered invincible, unstoppable, and nothing could kill me. People could make claims about me. I would be known for bringing armies to their knees. I would be considered a god, if not outright the god of the people. I don't accept claims. I accept feats.

 

[Munomario777]

That's the consensus in the Metroid fanbase, of which I helped, but even then, why dismiss it in favor of what I or others think when it's written right there? At least you're admitting that canon can be wrong.

The reason to dismiss it is because it's a typo.

Except, said character has never demonstrated an upper limit, and so it is an assumption that said character can only be harmed by select weapons. By that logic, werewolves can only be killed by silver bullets. If I went in the past with powered armor, I would be considered invincible, unstoppable, and nothing could kill me. People could make claims about me. I would be known for bringing armies to their knees. I would be considered a god, if not outright the god of the people. I don't accept claims. I accept feats.

It's not an assumption. Lore says that Ganondorf can only be harmed by select weapons. It's not just people making claims here; it's the game itself directly giving you this information, also known as lore. Lore is, other than creators clarifying things, the highest form of evidence in this discussion (lore > gameplay > etc.). There is evidence (the lore) that Ganondorf cannot be harmed by things other than those select weapons. If you can provide evidence to the contrary that overrules that evidence (such as multiple instances in lore or the creator(s) stating that he can be harmed by other things), then I'll reconsider.

 

[Munomario777]

VS
FIGHT!
Rules:

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
• No ally assistance is allowed here.
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
• No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Mario used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Shulk's attacks, he could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Mario would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
• Mario gets one of each of his power-ups, and can equip them at any time. They each block one hit, similar to how the health works in 3D Land/World/New Super Mario Bros.
• Shulk may use all of his Monado Arts and abilities from Xenoblade, and has the Monado III.
• If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the rules out of the way, let's start the battle! First off, Shulk is on the offensive!
's Attack: This is the Monado's Power!
Shulk can use the Monado to use different Monado Arts, which are as follows:

• Monado Enchant is only useful against the Mechon, so I won't be taking it into account here.
• Monado Buster generates a huge glowing blade, enhancing Shulk's range significantly.
• Monado Shield blocks one attack that is of a lower level than it is. Seeing as how there is no system like this for Mario's attacks, I'll just treat it as a universal one-time-use blocking attack.
• Monado Speed gives the user enhanced evasion against physical attacks. This means that Shulk is better at dodging, with up to a 90% evasion rate.
• Monado Purge is a ranged attack, which disables the target's buffing of oneself and the target's debuffing of others.
• Monado Eater is a frontal attack that causes enemies to bleed (that is, become poisoned for about ten seconds).
• Monado Armour only works on Shulk's allies; thus, it won't be taken into account here.
• Monado Cyclone damages enemies near Shulk at any angle, and inflicts Topple (falling over and vulnerable to daze) if the target is inflicted with Break.

Additionally, all of these Arts have a cooldown. I couldn't find a source for how long this is, so I'll be using a cooldown of ten seconds for all Arts (including Shulk's regular attacks such as Back Slash).
's Counter:

• Monado Buster: Mario could dodge this attack via the Cape Feather's flight, the Super Star's added speed and invincibility, or other methods.
• Monado Shield: It's only one hit blocked, and has a cooldown of ten seconds, leaving Mario plenty of time to attack.
• Monado Speed: Mario has various ranged attacks, such as the Fire Flower and the Hammer Suit, so this shouldn't be much of an issue.
• Monado Purge: While this may prevent Mario from equipping power-ups for a little bit, he could still make do with his natural jumping or whatever power-up he had equipped at the time.
• Monado Eater: Mario's steady supply of power-ups could help mitigate the poison. That said, this could prove deadly if Mario is still affected by Monado Purge.
• Monado Cyclone: While this may shut down Mario's up-close attack attempts, it has a cooldown, so Mario could still get some hits in.

's Attack: Slit Edge
Shulk attacks with the Monado. If the target is hit on the side, their physical defense is reduced by 50%.
's Counter: Jump
Mario's jump would allow him to avoid this slash.
's Counter Counter: A Vision!
Shulk's Visions would allow him to predict Mario's jumping and alter his slice accordingly.
's Counter Counter Counter: Wouldn't Work
Shulk only has Visions if the situation is extremely life-threatening, such as a deadly attack with potential to KO Shulk.

's Attack: Back Slash
Shulk attacks with the Monado. If the target is hit on the back, the damage output is doubled.
's Counter: Statue Leaf
Since this is a vertical attack, jumping up into the blade isn't an option. However, the Statue Leaf allows Mario to turn into an invincible statue for a few seconds, which would allow him to block this attack.

's Attack: Shaker Edge
Shulk attacks with the Monado. Dazes (inability to dodge attacks) if the target is Toppled.
's Counter: Dodge
Shaker Edge has a bit of startup lag, so Mario could dodge the attack.

's Attack: Air Slash
Shulk attacks with the Monado. Inflicts Break (vulnerable to Topple), and a side hit can inflict Slow (does what the name implies).
's Counter: Cape Feather
Mario's quick flying with the Cape Feather would allow him to dodge an aerial attack.

's Attack: Shadow Eye
Doubles damage of all physical arts for five seconds.
's Counter: N/A
Since this isn't actually an attack, there's nothing that Mario needs to dodge.

's Attack: Stream Edge
Shulk attacks all enemies in front of him to inflict Break (vulnerable to Topple) on targets, as well as filling up his Talent Gauge.
's Counter: Lucky Bell
Yet another of Mario's blocking options, this turns him into a Japanese "lucky cat" statue to block attacks.

Halfway through the matchup, Shulk seems a bit outmatched by Mario's power-ups. However, will he be able to provide a smart counter to Mario's attacks?

's Attack: Jump Punch
Combining the speed of his jumps with his punches, Mario can deliver an uppercut powerful enough to break bricks.
's Counter: Range
The Monado's long blade would be able to keep Mario at a distance to prevent this uppercut.

's Attack: Ground Pound
This attack has Mario leap in the air, charge up for a brief moment, and stomp on the opponent with more force than a regular Jump, powerful enough to break multiple layers of stone.
's Counter: A Vision!
Since this provides great danger to Shulk, he could predict the Ground Pound via a Vision, dodge it during the start up lag, and counter attack during the end lag.

's Attack: Hammer
Mario's iron hammer can crush brick blocks, damage foes, and more.
's Counter: A Vision
Since this provides great danger to Shulk (and the swing is quite laggy), Shulk could dodge and counter attack via a Vision.

's Attack: Pick Up and Throw
Mario's superhuman strength allows him to pick up heavy objects and foes (including Bowser!) and throw them across large distances.
's Counter: Range
The Monado's long distance would keep Mario at a distance.

's Attack: F.L.U.D.D.
This water pack allows Mario to fire a steady stream of water to clean up things and push opponents.
's Counter: N/A
Despite this not damaging Shulk, he doesn't have a way to block the pushing effect, which would prevent Shulk from attacking at close range while leaving him open to projectiles.

's Attack: Fire Flower
This flower grants Mario pyrokinetic abilities, ranging from simple Fireballs to Mario Finale-esque flame attacks.
's Counter: N/A
Not even Monado Speed can dodge projectiles, and Mario can toss many of these rapidly and in multiple directions to make the arena difficult for Shulk to navigate.

's Attack: Super Star
This power-up grants Mario brief invincibility, along with enhanced speed, enhanced jumping, and the ability to damage enemies on contact. Mario can stack this with any other power-up.
's Counter: N/A
Even if Shulk got a Vision, the Super Star is too fast to dodge, and this also eliminates Shulk's counters to Mario's attacks.

CONCLUSION: While Shulk's Monado Arts give him a good deal of variety, the Arts' cooldown time, Mario's greater variety, and his potent power-ups push Mario to victory.

WINNER:

This analysis is part of the bracket

 

[Crystanium]

The reason to dismiss it is because it's a typo.

You're not one to say. It has actually never been confirmed by Retro Studios, and it wasn't changed to "4.8 billion teratons" in the Metroid Prime trilogy.

It's not an assumption. Lore says that Ganondorf can only be harmed by select weapons. It's not just people making claims here; it's the game itself directly giving you this information, also known as lore. Lore is, other than creators clarifying things, the highest form of evidence in this discussion (lore > gameplay > etc.). There is evidence (the lore) that Ganondorf cannot be harmed by things other than those select weapons. If you can provide evidence to the contrary that overrules that evidence (such as multiple instances in lore or the creator(s) stating that he can be harmed by other things), then I'll reconsider.

I've only found one thing from lore that says the light arrows and master sword are effective, but that's all. And as I stated before, it may or may not be true in that universe. You're repeating yourself when you needn't. I'm not dense. I know what you're saying, but that doesn't change what I've stated. Ganondorf's invulnerability to all things (save light and holy attacks) is ipse dixitism, an argument from ignorance, and hasty generalization.

 

[Munomario777]

You're not one to say. It has actually never been confirmed by Retro Studios, and it wasn't changed to "4.8 billion teratons" in the Metroid Prime trilogy.

But as you said, it's the overall consensus in the Metroid community, and it seems most likely (gravity on the planet in Metroid behaves similarly to that on Earth). Lore has given us dimensions and statistics on Samus, her armor, and such, and those statistics suggest an Earth-like mass. Since the statistics are multiple sources of lore and the statement about the planet's weight can be fixed simply by changing two letters (trillion to billion), we can logically conclude that the planet's mass is, indeed, a typo.

I've only found one thing from lore that says the light arrows and master sword are effective, but that's all. And as I stated before, it may or may not be true in that universe. You're repeating yourself when you needn't. I'm not dense. I know what you're saying, but that doesn't change what I've stated. Ganondorf's invulnerability to all things (save light and holy attacks) is ipse dixitism, an argument from ignorance, and hasty generalization.

I've found zero things from lore that say that weapons other than the ones stated by lore/shown in-game can harm Ganondorf. 1 source from lore > 0 sources from lore. Saying that it might be true only in that universe (even though I still believe all games, or at least many games, share a universe, but whatever) is an argument from ignorance. It hasn't been proven false (even though it sort of has), so you're saying that it's likely true.

• Ipse dixitism is saying something is true simply because "that's how it is". I'm saying something is true because there is evidence for it being true.
• Argument from ignorance is saying something is true because it has not been proven false, or vice versa. I'm saying that something is true because, again, there is evidence for it being true.
• Hasty generalization is taking a small sample and extending it to all samples. I'm taking lore saying that nothing can harm Ganondorf other than the specified weapons and concluding that nothing can harm Ganondorf other than the specified weapons.

 

[Crystanium]

But as you said, it's the overall consensus in the Metroid community, and it seems most likely (gravity on the planet in Metroid behaves similarly to that on Earth). Lore has given us dimensions and statistics on Samus, her armor, and such, and those statistics suggest an Earth-like mass. Since the statistics are multiple sources of lore and the statement about the planet's weight can be fixed simply by changing two letters (trillion to billion), we can logically conclude that the planet's mass is, indeed, a typo.

There was a consensus in the Zelda fanbase that said there were two timelines, and boy were they wrong. I'm only working with our gravity, not Zebes' gravity. However, again, it doesn't matter if changing "trillion" to "billion" gives an earth-like gravity, it's still canon, which wasn't changed in the Metroid Prime Trilogy edition.

I've found zero things from lore that say that weapons other than the ones stated by lore/shown in-game can harm Ganondorf.

Then you're taking this based on an argument from ignorance.

Saying that it might be true only in that universe (even though I still believe all games, or at least many games, share a universe, but whatever) is an argument from ignorance.

No it's not because I never said it's one or the other. I said it may or may not be true. That is not an argument from ignorance. That's being as objective as one can be.

It hasn't been proven false (even though it sort of has), so you're saying that it's likely true.

It hasn't been proven false, therefore it's true. Yeah, another argument from ignorance.

Ipse dixitism is saying something is true simply because "that's how it is". I'm saying something is true because there is evidence for it being true.

You're taking the words of fictional characters. That's just how it is.

Argument from ignorance is saying something is true because it has not been proven false, or vice versa. I'm saying that something is true because, again, there is evidence for it being true.

What evidence?

Hasty generalization is taking a small sample and extending it to all samples.

Exactly. And what have we seen Ganondorf withstand? That's all we can work with. Those are the only samples. Unless you're omniscient or the people in the Zeldaverse are omniscient, what characters say in the games cannot be accepted. They're claims, as in a "state[ment] or assert[ion] that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof" (OED)

I'm taking lore saying that nothing can harm Ganondorf other than the specified weapons and concluding that nothing can harm Ganondorf other than the specified weapons.

Your move, then.

 

[Nerdicon]

Well, until they do make a 3D game where that is the case, we must take Archer as-is.

OK, Archer is invincible while crouching like he is in-game. The attack can come from the background and it still won't do any damage. It's also unreasonable to assume the cardboard would fly off given that it doesn't even budge in harsh winds. The gameplay and lore say that Archer's Camouflage makes him invincible and that he can hold it for as long as he needs to. No other discussion needs to be made.

Ice Kirby's guard looks like it covers his whole body, and ice is slippery, so it would slide. If you look just before that point in the video, you can see Kirby skating, and ice does appear underneath his feet when he skates; he seems to be a bit slippery as a result.

Kirby can turn the skating off as seen by his walking animation, and when hit Kirby only slides a bit, the same amount whenever he gets hit when guarding with any other ability. Not to mention it's impossible to get pushed off a ledge from knockback (while guarding).

Actually, Mirror Kirby's guard seems like it would obstruct his view quite a bit, especially when it comes to piloting a Warp Star at hundreds of miles per hour.

It's translucent and has a rainbow overlay. It's even clearer in the anime. Unless Kirby's perception of color is important Mirror's guard also seems fine.
EDIT: That gameplay of KSS was either on an emulator or caught by a bad capture device. Either way the sprite didn't render correctly. Either that or it's just clearer in KSSU

 

[Crystanium]

I'd also like to point something out, since @ Nerdicon is here. I believe it was you who said that if Rosalina's shield is penetrated by photons and phonons, then light and sonic weapons would work. Well, consider the ozone layer. Light passes through, but what doesn't successfully pass through are ultraviolet C rays. Why not, when the atmosphere is clear and we can pass through it? Because, the stratosphere is able to absorb these rays. So, just because something is clear, doesn't necessarily mean electromagnetic waves can pass through.

Does this apply to Rosalina? Well, I don't know. Those who defend Rosalina would need to prove that. I just wanted to point out that intuition isn't a reliable method.

Edit: Fine, I'll assume only light and holy attacks can harm and kill Ganondorf.

 

[Nerdicon]

I'd also like to point something out, since @ Nerdicon is here. I believe it was you who said that if Rosalina's shield is penetrated by photons and phonons, then light and sonic weapons would work. Well, consider the ozone layer. Light passes through, but what doesn't successfully pass through are ultraviolet C rays. Why not, when the atmosphere is clear and we can pass through it? Because, the stratosphere is able to absorb these rays. So, just because something is clear, doesn't necessarily mean electromagnetic waves can pass through.

Does this apply to Rosalina? Well, I don't know. Those who defend Rosalina would need to prove that. I just wanted to point out that intuition isn't a reliable method.

The reason the ozone layer keeps ultraviolet light out is because the specific wavelengths of UV light that react with the oxygen molecules in the air (be it dioxygen or ozone). The UV wavelengths come in contact with the oxygen converting the UV light into heat and separating some of the oxygen molecules. The energy is still there just in different forms, not to mention ozone is a bluish color and by definition translucent not transparent. However there seems to minor diffraction happening when light hits the shield (creating the glow effect the barrier has) but light still gets through. If it didn't then Rosalina's shield wouldn't be transparent at all, it would be opaque.
Sound damaging Rosalina is an assumption of mine admittedly but not a crazy one. I just assume that some sort of particles are in the shield and the air. And since sound is a mechanical wave it would use these particles as a medium to travel through.
In my opinion while intuition and logic should not be the primary source of information in a realm that lacks logic, it can be used when there are no other answers.

 

[Munomario777]

There was a consensus in the Zelda fanbase that said there were two timelines, and boy were they wrong. I'm only working with our gravity, not Zebes' gravity. However, again, it doesn't matter if changing "trillion" to "billion" gives an earth-like gravity, it's still canon, which wasn't changed in the Metroid Prime Trilogy edition.

That's where I disagree. As I said earlier, Samus's dimensions and such suggest a much lower mass for the planet, and those dimensions are also considered lore.

Then you're taking this based on an argument from ignorance.

No, I'm taking it based on how there's more evidence (1 lore source) for Ganondorf's immunity than evidence (0 lore sources) for the contrary.

No it's not because I never said it's one or the other. I said it may or may not be true. That is not an argument from ignorance. That's being as objective as one can be.

Then what, exactly, are you basing your argument on?

It hasn't been proven false, therefore it's true. Yeah, another argument from ignorance.

Correct; I was describing the basis for your argument (or at least, what I thought was the basis for your argument).

You're taking the words of fictional characters. That's just how it is.

Yes, I'm taking the words of fictional characters (as well as lore), and we're also discussing a fictional universe.

What evidence?

The lore we already discussed.

Exactly. And what have we seen Ganondorf withstand? That's all we can work with. Those are the only samples. Unless you're omniscient or the people in the Zeldaverse are omniscient, what characters say in the games cannot be accepted. They're claims, as in a "state[ment] or assert[ion] that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof" (OED)

I've provided evidence in the form of lore (which, according to our hierarchy of discussion, is a high form of evidence) stating that Ganondorf can only be harmed by weapons with certain qualities. I'd say the game itself is rather omniscient about what happens in the game, wouldn't you?

Your move, then.

Move made.

OK, Archer is invincible while crouching like he is in-game. The attack can come from the background and it still won't do any damage. It's also unreasonable to assume the cardboard would fly off given that it doesn't even budge in harsh winds. The gameplay and lore say that Archer's Camouflage makes him invincible and that he can hold it for as long as he needs to. No other discussion needs to be made.

I meant in that Kirby only holds the camouflage to one side. If you ask me, Kirby holding camouflage in front of him and being protected behind him falls under the same category of the collision detection oddity in 3D World. Why can't Mario pick up that Mushroom right away? Because that's just how the game works. Why does Kirby not get hit by the hazard behind him just because he's holding camouflage in front of him? Because that's just how the game works. It's just a gameplay mechanic and nothing more.

How strong and fast are those winds? Because I'd imagine they're not as quick as the Warp Star, given Kirby's running speed and the fact that he'd have to get past them. Can Kirby be crushed between moving walls and such with the camouflage held up? If so, then given Kirby's height of eight inches, many attacks would be able to harm him (such as Mario stepping on him). This also goes for other guards where Kirby is vulnerable to crushing.

Kirby can turn the skating off as seen by his walking animation, and when hit Kirby only slides a bit, the same amount whenever he gets hit when guarding with any other ability. Not to mention it's impossible to get pushed off a ledge from knockback (while guarding).

Yes, Kirby can turn off the ice under his feet, but that's clearly not the case when he's blocking by encasing himself in ice (including his feet). As for the knockback, see above.

It's translucent and has a rainbow overlay. It's even clearer in the anime. Unless Kirby's perception of color is important Mirror's guard also seems fine.

Fair enough, but light-based attacks could still pierce the shield due to its translucency.

EDIT: That gameplay of KSS was either on an emulator or caught by a bad capture device. Either way the sprite didn't render correctly. Either that or it's just clearer in KSSU

Yeah, I noticed that too. I think it has to do with capturing 60FPS games at 30FPS. Games often flicker sprites on and off each frame to make them seem transparent, and since half of those frames are being skipped by the 60 to 30 compression, it seems solid, invisible, or looks off in another way. A similar thing happens to the Shields in early Sonic games, in fact.

 

[Crystanium]

The reason the ozone layer keeps ultraviolet light out is because the specific wavelengths of UV light that react with the oxygen molecules in the air (be it dioxygen or ozone). The UV wavelengths come in contact with the oxygen converting the UV light into heat and separating some of the oxygen molecules. The energy is still there just in different forms, not to mention ozone is a bluish color and by definition translucent not transparent. However there seems to minor diffraction happening when light hits the shield (creating the glow effect the barrier has) but light still gets through. If it didn't then Rosalina's shield wouldn't be transparent at all, it would be opaque.
Sound damaging Rosalina is an assumption of mine admittedly but not a crazy one. I just assume that some sort of particles are in the shield and the air. And since sound is a mechanical wave it would use these particles as a medium to travel through.
In my opinion while intuition and logic should not be the primary source of information in a realm that lacks logic, it can be used when there are no other answers.

I know. I'm just stating this because while I was heading home from work one night, this came to my mind and I thought that it wasn't a good idea to think that just because a barrier is transparent or translucent, that electromagnetic waves and radiation will always pass through. I know sound is not an electromagnetic wave. These waves travel light speed. I just thought it would be worth noting.

 

[Nerdicon]

I meant in that Kirby only holds the camouflage to one side. If you ask me, Kirby holding camouflage in front of him and being protected behind him falls under the same category of the collision detection oddity in 3D World. Why can't Mario pick up that Mushroom right away? Because that's just how the game works. Why does Kirby not get hit by the hazard behind him just because he's holding camouflage in front of him? Because that's just how the game works. It's just a gameplay mechanic and nothing more.

Difference being that this isn't a balance tweak like in 3D World, it's a move that the ability can use. If the developers wanted the attack to function more realistically they would have, but the point of the maneuver is to grant Kirby invincibility.

How strong and fast are those winds? Because I'd imagine they're not as quick as the Warp Star, given Kirby's running speed and the fact that he'd have to get past them. Can Kirby be crushed between moving walls and such with the camouflage held up? If so, then given Kirby's height of eight inches, many attacks would be able to harm him (such as Mario stepping on him). This also goes for other guards where Kirby is vulnerable to crushing.

For one, 8 inches is probably a little larger than you think. Mario isn't quite big enough to just step on Kirby, Kirby can get assaulted by large boulders and still block them in Triple Deluxe. As for the archer guard, I tested with large bosses that have attacks that crush Kirby flat and Kirby was not harmed. In Flowery Woods' case he was pushed out of the way of the collision box of Flowery Woods' body. He still gets crushed by auto-scrolling stages, but even you said that was a game mechanic. As for sliding off, if Kirby doesn't instantly fly off the Warp Star normally then whatever he uses won't either. By that logic if Sword Kirby rode the Warp Star he'd lose his ability because the speed would cause him to drop the sword.

Yes, Kirby can turn off the ice under his feet, but that's clearly not the case when he's blocking by encasing himself in ice (including his feet). As for the knockback, see above.

See above

Fair enough, but light-based attacks could still pierce the shield due to its translucency.

Difference here is that we have in-game evidence that suggests otherwise. In Rosalina's case this statement is used because there's no evidence that suggests otherwise, but in this example EM wave attacks are reflected back anyway.

Yeah, I noticed that too. I think it has to do with capturing 60FPS games at 30FPS. Games often flicker sprites on and off each frame to make them seem transparent, and since half of those frames are being skipped by the 60 to 30 compression, it seems solid, invisible, or looks off in another way. A similar thing happens to the Shields in early Sonic games, in fact.

Glad we're on the same page

 

[Crystanium]

Then what, exactly, are you basing your argument on?

What's said by those within that universe cannot make claims outside that universe.

Correct; I was describing the basis for your argument (or at least, what I thought was the basis for your argument).

Likewise.

Yes, I'm taking the words of fictional characters (as well as lore), and we're also discussing a fictional universe.

And I hope we're being logical.

I've provided evidence in the form of lore (which, according to our hierarchy of discussion, is a high form of evidence) stating that Ganondorf can only be harmed by weapons with certain qualities. I'd say the game itself is rather omniscient about what happens in the game, wouldn't you?

I don't subscribe to your hierarchy. The game has only demonstrated what Ganondorf is not affected by. These are small samples. Once again, ipse dixitism, an argument from ignorance, and hast generalization is being committed by you.

A soldier wearing powered armor decides he wants to take over the land. His name is heard throughout the land for his infamous ways. Armies are sent by the king to stop him, but the armies are brought to their knees within a short amount of time. Arrows, pikes, spears, daggers, axes, and swords fail to work against this soldier. Then a small group of people create a device to shut down the soldier's powered armor, one that generates an electromagnetic pulse. The soldier is hit by the EMP and defeated. Thus, this small group tells the people that the EMP is the only way to stop the soldier.

Sound familiar? But I'm assuming for now that Ganondorf can only be harmed by light and holy attacks.