Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Crystanium]

I think he sounds pretty biased towards Samus, but I'll wait and see how he gets around Magic Armor -> Link turns around and drinks chateau Romani -> switches from Magic Armor to Magic Cape -> 3 day invincibility.

Well, what you think is an ad hominem circumstantial. Honestly, it doesn't matter if I'm biased or not. To counter your thought, however, I think you and others will be rather pleased knowing that I am trying to find the gear, items, and spells that are at their optimal performance so Link can have the best options available to him. Even if a composite form of Link wins against Samus, this doesn't matter for two reasons. First, composite forms to this degree are non-canon. There are only few Link incarnations that can be called "composite", but not to the degree I'm presenting him. Second, this is just one incarnation of Samus fighting a multi-incarnational Link.

In my argument, I am presenting Link's offensive and defensive abilities, as well as Samus' offensive and defensive abilities. Once I present a case for both, that's when I will consider who is likely to win and win for said reasons. Please don't think that if I am biased, that I will say Samus will win, regardless. If by the end of this argument I'm writing I find Link to be the winner, then I will post it anyway. I like Link. I'm currently playing Twilight Princess for the Wii and to be quite honest, Link comes off as a bad***. That being said, I hope you and others don't think I'm being biased.

 

[Munomario777]

@Dryn I believe you. I do think you should work with Samus using all of her abilities from each game, though, mainly because that's what we usually do here in that we combine characters' abilities from throughout their respective series (i.e. Mario gets the Cape Feather from Mario World, and also has the Ice Flower from Galaxy onwards). It eliminates the problem of finding out which game is most advantageous, as well as making things simpler and more inclusive of a character's abilities.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn I believe you. I do think you should work with Samus using all of her abilities from each game, though, mainly because that's what we usually do here in that we combine characters' abilities from throughout their respective series (i.e. Mario gets the Cape Feather from Mario World, and also has the Ice Flower from Galaxy onwards). It eliminates the problem of finding out which game is most advantageous, as well as making things simpler and more inclusive of a character's abilities.

Thank you. I feel that if Samus had all her abilities, it wouldn't be fair to those who only have one game like Ness. I could select which incarnation I feel would be fair if I had to, though.

 

[Munomario777]

Thank you. I feel that if Samus had all her abilities, it wouldn't be fair to those who only have one game like Ness. I could select which incarnation I feel would be fair if I had to, though.

Well, I think it's not fair to Samus in that case if she's not getting all of her abilities. You're welcome.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, I think it's not fair to Samus in that case if she's not getting all of her abilities. You're welcome.

I personally am confident in Samus' abilities to even face off against Link, even though right now, I have given Link two rings capable of preventing damage from certain amount of heat and certain wattages. I decided I'd use the mirror shield as well, since the Hylian shield in Skyward Sword already can protect Link from flames and electricity. So the mirror shield will help Link avoid ice attacks, assuming he's able to react in time. We'll see soon, though.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

For the most part, the only guys here that actually have different incarnations are the LoZ guys. The Jumpman in Donkey Kong is the Mario in Mario Kart 8. The Kirby in Kirby's Dream Land is the same as in Kirby: Triple Deluxe, etc.

The reason the Legend of Zelda characters are composite are because there's nothing limiting them to one incarnation. If they've only got one game, too bad (though Ness can defeat a lot of these guys anyways).

tl;dr Everyone should get all their stuff.

 

[Crystanium]

If you guys are of the opinion that everyone should be granted all their abilities, then I suppose.

 

[ChikoLad]

Came back to read this thread for old times sake.

My god, it's been ruined beyond repair.

At this point, it should really be renamed "Post your incredibly biased and terrible fan fictions!".

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I see a few options for Samus. She could use the weak point visor to aim a shot at the bottle, and even if Link did drink it in time, she does have a few methods she could possibly use to stall it out, such as running around at Mach 1 via the Speed Booster to avoid Link's attacks.

Weak point visor? I'm not aware of such a thing.
And I already proposed a counter to Speed Boost: Bombos medallion. It causes an earthquake and Samus can't gain momentum to start Speed Boost if the ground is violently shaking. It's debatable whether it could disrupt her while she's running with Speed Booster.
I also have doubts that even Samus can run for 3 straight days. She might be superhuman but she is human.

Oh, I'm not really interested in doing a bracket for the mid-tier characters honestly.

Cool.

As I pointed out earlier, it only takes a couple of seconds to transform a Luma into an entire galaxy with multiple black holes, planets, and such, so one measly black hole would be very quick (especially since Lumas can fire their own Star Bit streams to speed up the process, as demonstrated by Galaxy 2's Co-Star Lumas). As for their durability, we don't see any Lumas dying in Galaxy AFAIK, but they do seem a bit weak in their normal forms. However, when Lumas die, they turn into stars, so it would only make matters worse for Palutena really.

So basically Rosalina turns into a statue then unleashes her army of Lumas to change into black holes in the 12 seconds she's invulnerable.
Only flaw with this is since we agreed Rosalina's not immune to stars or black holes, a foe could just run near Rosalina so she gets hurt to, but if we're being honest most (probably no) characters wouldn't know to do that.

@ ShadowLBlue Are you referring to Amnesia? I guess he'd be able to wipe minds with it, but it would also give the opponent a boost.


Agreed. Ness has similar healing skills, Franklin Badge to reflect Thoron, and galactic attacks.

No, I was referring to the end of the first movie when he wiped everyone's memories of the first movie. He also created a massive storm, which he could use here to make aiming non-magic projectiles hard and conceal himself.

And what do you mean by galactic attacks?

Not only that, but Ness his healing abilities are much more reliable than Robin's. Robin's damage output could be dangerously close to Ness's, but Ness is able to block a lot of damage with PSI Shield beta, Franklin Badge will take care of lightning based attacks, and PK Rockin' will probably do more damage to Robin than anything Robin could unleash on Ness. Outside of criticals with insanely powerful legendary weapons and skill activation, but the problem is that those are situational. And that Ness is extremely durable, and can cast PSI Shield which Robin really has no answer for.

Well his PSI shield only blocks half of the damage, but half is still alot. Plus it reflects some damage back. Also a quick search shows that his max PP is 666.
As long as he doesn't span PSI Rockin omega, he'll be able to keep himself healed since he has a move that fully recovers his HP that only costs 13 PP.
So in retrospect I believe you're probably right.

Just a list of Ness' powers

• PSI Rocking Omega- Does massive damage and hits all foes so I'm assuming IRL it would be an AOE attack. However as stated above takes like 15% of PP, so he could only use it 6 times. He'd be wiser to use the Gamma version, which only does half the damage of Omega. he could use 16 times (if he only used PSI Rocking Gamma) .
• PSI Lifeup Gamma- For a measly 13 PP can heal all of his health.
• PSI Shield Gamma- Reduces damage by 50% and reflects some back at foe.
• PSI Flash Omega- It generates glorious rays that have a high probability of destroying most of the enemies on the scene in a single strike (40%). It still has a chance to make the enemies cry (35%), feel strange (10%), or become numb (15%). Should be noted it said the chances of OHKO is lower on bosses.
• Hypnosis
• PSI Recover Gamma- Heals status conditions
• Teleport-"

Well, what you think is an ad hominem circumstantial. Honestly, it doesn't matter if I'm biased or not. To counter your thought, however, I think you and others will be rather pleased knowing that I am trying to find the gear, items, and spells that are at their optimal performance so Link can have the best options available to him. Even if a composite form of Link wins against Samus, this doesn't matter for two reasons. First, composite forms to this degree are non-canon. There are only few Link incarnations that can be called "composite", but not to the degree I'm presenting him. Second, this is just one incarnation of Samus fighting a multi-incarnational Link.

In my argument, I am presenting Link's offensive and defensive abilities, as well as Samus' offensive and defensive abilities. Once I present a case for both, that's when I will consider who is likely to win and win for said reasons. Please don't think that if I am biased, that I will say Samus will win, regardless. If by the end of this argument I'm writing I find Link to be the winner, then I will post it anyway. I like Link. I'm currently playing Twilight Princess for the Wii and to be quite honest, Link comes off as a bad***. That being said, I hope you and others don't think I'm being biased.

I only called you biased because all of you said, while still researching, that "prepare for composite LInk to lose", which sounds like you're writing hoping/lookin for a Samus victory, although it could have been a joke.
Nonethless I do expect you to lay out a fair argument.
BTW IMO AlttP Link is the most BA link, just go and look at all of his equipment. His only flaw (and it's a significant one) is a good number of his bests items require the magic meter and drain it FAST. However, take the magic meter out of the equation and he's a one-man army.

For the most part, the only guys here that actually have different incarnations are the LoZ guys. The Jumpman in Donkey Kong is the Mario in Mario Kart 8. The Kirby in Kirby's Dream Land is the same as in Kirby: Triple Deluxe, etc.

The reason the Legend of Zelda characters are composite are because there's nothing limiting them to one incarnation. If they've only got one game, too bad (though Ness can defeat a lot of these guys anyways).

tl;dr Everyone should get all their stuff.

Agreed, it's part of the challenge. We're not trying to make it balanced. However, this discussion makes you realize how necessary it is for Sakurai and his team to balance the actual game, although they overdid it with certain characters *cough* ganondorf, Samus *cough* but that's another discussion for another forum.

Came back to read this thread for old times sake.

My god, it's been ruined beyond repair.

Surprised you feel that way since Rosalina's been reupgraded to tier A (or maybe it was high tier B) status.

 

[Munomario777]

Weak point visor? I'm not aware of such a thing.
And I already proposed a counter to Speed Boost: Bombos medallion. It causes an earthquake and Samus can't gain momentum to start Speed Boost if the ground is violently shaking. It's debatable whether it could disrupt her while she's running with Speed Booster.
I also have doubts that even Samus can run for 3 straight days. She might be superhuman but she is human.

I think @Dryn mentioned in the past that Samus has a visor to spot weak points or something along those lines.
It seems like the medallion has quite a bit of start-up, though, so Samus could easily gain speed in the downtime. I haven't played a Metroid game to completion, but aren't there some instances of earthquakes in Super Metroid? Can she use the Speed Booster when those are occurring? It doesn't seem like the one at the beginning of the game hinders her regular movement.
The suit would aid her stamina and such, given that the upgrade is what provides the added speed.

So basically Rosalina turns into a statue then unleashes her army of Lumas to change into black holes in the 12 seconds she's invulnerable.
Only flaw with this is since we agreed Rosalina's not immune to stars or black holes, a foe could just run near Rosalina so she gets hurt to, but if we're being honest most (probably no) characters wouldn't know to do that.

She could use a Super Star or Mega Mushroom as well, which would allow her to retain mobility to prevent this from happening.

Surprised you feel that way since Rosalina's been reupgraded to tier A (or maybe it was high tier B) status.

Yeah, even without resetting the universe, Rosalina is a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Crystanium]

I only called you biased because all of you said, while still researching, that "prepare for composite LInk to lose", which sounds like you're writing hoping/lookin for a Samus victory, although it could have been a joke.

You're right. It was no joke. It appears to me that you're confident in composite Link winning, which is why I said that. Still, you're right. That was rather biased of me to say. I apologize. Honestly, Link is taking most of my time to write information about him because I'm looking for all his attack, defense, and speed enhancements. It'd be simpler if I was working with one incarnation.

Nonethless I do expect you to lay out a fair argument.
BTW IMO AlttP Link is the most BA link, just go and look at all of his equipment. His only flaw (and it's a significant one) is a good number of his bests items require the magic meter and drain it FAST. However, take the magic meter out of the equation and he's a one-man army.

I played ALttP several months ago. I got stuck in this icy dungeon. I do know about his magic issue. He's probably the most efficient magic user of all Link incarnations and it does suck that his magic drains pretty fast. While I will ignore the magic meter, I will consider that as Link's mental strength. Mentality and magic seem to go hand-in-hand in video games. This seems true for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. Brainrot, for example, affects your use of magicka and Farengar prefers the mind and books over brute force. I believe Soma Cruz has a necklace that regenerates his magic as well and it's associated with the mind. With the Chateau milk, though, this magic draining shouldn't be an issue for Link.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue Oh, well I don't see why Mewtwo couldn't wipe minds.

By galactic attacks, I mean that the attacks should be around galactic. They were able to damage a being with universal durability, but Ness needed a boost from Paula first.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still believe Mewtwo would wreck most other Smash characters easily.

 

[Crystanium]

I think @Dryn mentioned in the past that Samus has a visor to spot weak points or something along those lines.

When the x-ray visor is used in conjunction with the nova beam in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Samus is able to pinpoint her opponent's weakness and kill it off in one shot. (Technically, this is known as "lethal strike" in MOM, which Samus does on her own.) In this case, Samus doesn't have the x-ray visor and nova beam combination. Since Samus from Metroid: Other M has the majority of her items from Super Metroid, I could just use SM Samus. The x-ray scope, spazer beam, hi-jump boots, and reserve tanks, don't show up in MOM, even though she hasn't lost any of her upgrades. She just deactivates them. So Samus may still have her other upgrades from SM. There's no need for the spazer beam anyway, since it's incompatible with the plasma beam in SM, so yeah.

It seems like the medallion has quite a bit of start-up, though, so Samus could easily gain speed in the downtime. I haven't played a Metroid game to completion, but aren't there some instances of earthquakes in Super Metroid? Can she use the Speed Booster when those are occurring? It doesn't seem like the one at the beginning of the game hinders her regular movement.
The suit would aid her stamina and such, given that the upgrade is what provides the added speed.

Norfair will have a few Zebes quakes here and there. In fact, upon acquiring the speed booster in SM, Samus has to run out of the room while the corridor shakes and the magma rises. The only issue that will prevent Samus from running is from leveled surfaces close to her height, or half her height. Large dips in the ground will prevent her use of the speed booster.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I still believe Mewtwo would wreck most other Smash characters easily.

Yeah. He can wipe everyone's minds,use their skills and abilities (Skill Swap/Me First), and crush them with TK. And then there's Mega Mewtwo, who can defeat Arceus.

 

[ChikoLad]

I have so many problems with the Rosalina VS Sonic "match" (more like "fan fiction made to make Sonic a Gary Stu"), but I will just address the biggest flaw (Note: While I believe Rosalina is the most powerful, this flaw is objective and I would point it out regardless, as this seems to be a severe piece of misinformation spread throughout this thread).

SUPER SONIC IS NOT INVINCIBLE

Sources:

In Sonic X, a simple punch to the gut knocks him unconcious (Sonic X is a valid source, it was created by Yuji Naka and other members of Sonic Team, and contains adaptations of canon Sonic stories - it may not tell these events completely accurately, but the characters are written to reflect the abilities, strengths, and weaknesses they would have in the games. This particular scene comes from the Metarex Saga, which is completely original to Sonic X and doesn't butt heads with the events of the games).

Dark Oak also successfully defeats Super Sonic in a straight up physical fight, to the point where Sonic takes a risk and scatters the Chaos Emeralds across the universe (using Chaos Control), leaving himself unconcious, to fall to his planet below.

Before this, you can see visible injury on Sonic's body:

And he then proceeds to hold that injury, as people instinctively do when they are injured:

Also, he can still feel fatigue in his Super form. Notice the sweat (he's also huffing at this point - right after Dark Oak knocks him back with a strike of his powerful blade):

In Sonic Unleashed, Eggman restrains Super Sonic in some kind of trap:

He then proceeds to absorb the energy of the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic, in a process that causes him extreme pain even before he has returned to his normal form:

Also Sonic can still drown or be crushed when he is in his Super Form. As has been shown in multiple games, both old and new.

I could probably find more but as I said before, this thread has went way past a point where I am bothered to waste my time arguing at length. I just thought that really needed addressing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I also think Mewtwo would beat Sonic to be honest.

 

[Munomario777]

@ ChikoLad

Games > Sonic X. In the games, if Super Sonic is punched, he doesn't even flinch. If he's hit by something a bit more powerful like an attack from a deity of destruction, he loses a few Rings, which is no big deal when he can hold up to 999,999 of them at any given time.

The machine Robotnik used in Unleashed was presumably made specifically to attract/harness the energy of the Chaos Emeralds, given that it was built into a cannon that uses said Emeralds as a fuel source (it's like the machine is the fuel hole, the cannon is the car, Sonic is the fuel nozzle, and the Emeralds are the gasoline). Since no one here has a machine designed to harness Chaos Emerald energy, this doesn't really pose a problem for Sonic in this particular case. Also, Sonic seems more annoyed than in pain in that image.

Yes, Super Sonic can drown or be crushed by moving walls and such. However, seeing as how most characters don't flood the arena (he could just fly out of the water anyways) and aren't giant, unstoppable walls, this doesn't really pose a problem in this scenario.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, Hyper Shadow is on the level of Super Sonic, so it's no surprise. Sweating is not always indicative of fatigue. It can be indicative of nervousness as well. If we define "invincible" as "unconquerable", then yes, Sonic is not invincible to those on his level. He may be unconquerable to most life forms in his universe. If we define "invincible" as "invulnerable", then yes, Sonic is not invulnerable to a certain degree, much like Superman.

When it comes to extrapolation, we bump into problems. This is what I was pointing out with Ganondorf's dark defense. He has a certain degree where he's invincible, but when it comes to opponents who are at his level, then the word loses meaning. I think it's rather unfair for you to build a straw man. I understand you're not pleased with Rosalina losing to many characters on the roster, but getting bent out of shape and misrepresenting information isn't how it's done.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Psychics should be able to hurt Super Sonic cause of the very nature of psychic abilities.

 

[Munomario777]

Psychics should be able to hurt Super Sonic cause of the very nature of psychic abilities.

How so?

 

[Nerdicon]

Oh, yeah. Palutena. I think treating the stars like that sounds good.

Just remember that goes both ways

Well, the Mega Mushrooms do protect the user from most attacks, including fireballs, hammers, and magic attacks IIRC. What makes you say that the Lucky Bell would be vulnerable to being crushed or to extreme heat? I believe any Thwomps that attempt to crush it are destroyed, and it's also immune to fire attacks. Gameplay > real-world science. The Super Star would be ideal, but the Lucky Bell can be used multiple times, without a real limit, while Rosalina only has one Starman. It's more of a backup invincibility form for when the Super Star runs out than something that would be used at the beginning of the stage.

Pits, Lava, Poison Water? (this killed you with a Mega Mushroom in other games), and being crushed all kill any form.
Oddly enough, Volcano Smog could also kill star users in one hit. If Palutena or Pit got the poison cloud...
Anyway I'll post my version of the Palutena vs Rosalina match-up whenever homework stops sapping all my free time.

Well, black holes in Galaxy are, you know, black, so they're sucking in light by the looks of it. Many black holes in the Galaxy games also pull things in from a long distance for a one-hit-kill before Mario even makes contact with the event horizon, which seems to mean that this pull is inescapable.

I've think I've explained why that isn't necessarily a kill already but, the bit that sucks Mario in before he can be considered toast is called the ergosphere which while powerful,l is escapable. It's perfectly possible that Mario just doesn't move fast enough to avoid getting caught.

Well, being the Goddess of Light, Palutena does have some light-based attacks (as well as the Mega Laser, which being a laser, would pierce the shield), but the Super Star or other invincibility items would take care of those. As for the strength of the shield, it can block Mario's Ground Pound, which can crush through multiple layers of solid stone, so it must be pretty durable.

I'll be getting to the power-ups, you just wait...
I don't think there's any argument on the efficiency of Rosalina's shield, it's seemingly indestructible.

So basically Rosalina turns into a statue then unleashes her army of Lumas to change into black holes in the 12 seconds she's invulnerable.
Only flaw with this is since we agreed Rosalina's not immune to stars or black holes, a foe could just run near Rosalina so she gets hurt to, but if we're being honest most (probably no) characters wouldn't know to do that.

There's a bit of a continuity error on that front. Since Rosalina clearly falls in every game outside SMG and SMG2 she should die when getting too close to a black hole. But at the same time, in SMG and SMG2 she's floating constantly and appears in front of a supermassive black hole without being fazed. Then again, the Rosalina at the end of SMG might've just been some sort of astral projection or something. In my opinion Rosalina should be affected by strong gravity

 

[ChikoLad]

@ ChikoLad

Games > Sonic X. In the games, if Super Sonic is punched, he doesn't even flinch. If he's hit by something a bit more powerful like an attack from a deity of destruction, he loses a few Rings, which is no big deal when he can hold up to 999,999 of them at any given time.

The machine Robotnik used in Unleashed was presumably made specifically to attract/harness the energy of the Chaos Emeralds, given that it was built into a cannon that uses said Emeralds as a fuel source (it's like the machine is the fuel hole, the cannon is the car, Sonic is the fuel nozzle, and the Emeralds are the gasoline). Since no one here has a machine designed to harness Chaos Emerald energy, this doesn't really pose a problem for Sonic in this particular case. Also, Sonic seems more annoyed than in pain in that image.

Yes, Super Sonic can drown or be crushed by moving walls and such. However, seeing as how most characters don't flood the arena (he could just fly out of the water anyways) and aren't giant, unstoppable walls, this doesn't really pose a problem in this scenario.

No, Games = Sonic X. Both are equally relevant, as they came from the same people. Yuji Naka is literally to Sonic what Sakurai is to Kirby, or to Kid Icarus: Uprising. You do not get more say than he does. Also, Sonic is merely faced with Eggman's badniks and whatever bosses he is allowed to fight in the games. Of course he is allowed to defeat the former easily, and the latter through game design. It's not impossible to lose in a Super Sonic boss fight, Sonic can be damaged.

Also Sonic having 999,999 Rings is another issue I have entirely, but I won't get into that. Like I said, I don't intend to stick around here.

The machine wasn't built to hold the energy of the Chaos Emeralds, as it continues to hold Sonic even after the Emeralds have been drained, and before he turns into the Werehog.

It's just some kind of gravitational field that holds Sonic in (if you watch before Sonic is latched inside the middle, he tried to get out but is already trapped within the circle of effect and is THEN pulled into the middle). And Sonic is most definitely in pain in the scene. He has a blood curtling scream of pain throughout the entire scene. His face is that of pure agony throughout. You are literally reaching to try and claim he is not in pain.

Well, Hyper Shadow is on the level of Super Sonic, so it's no surprise. Sweating is not always indicative of fatigue. It can be indicative of nervousness as well. If we define "invincible" as "unconquerable", then yes, Sonic is not invincible to those on his level. He may be unconquerable to most life forms in his universe. If we define "invincible" as "invulnerable", then yes, Sonic is not invulnerable to a certain degree, much like Superman.

When it comes to extrapolation, we bump into problems. This is what I was pointing out with Ganondorf's dark defense. He has a certain degree where he's invincible, but when it comes to opponents who are at his level, then the word loses meaning. I think it's rather unfair for you to build a straw man. I understand you're not pleased with Rosalina losing to many characters on the roster, but getting bent out of shape and misrepresenting information isn't how it's done.

You mean Super Shadow. Hyper Shadow does not exist. The reason Super Shadow is white is because the visual theme behind Sonic and Shadow's Super forms is that they use the complimentary colours of their normal forms. Super Sonic is yellow/gold because Sonic is normally dark blue. Yellow is the complimentary colour of dark blue. In Sonic's case, it also extends to his eyes - ruby red is the complimentary colour of emerald green.
In any case, I don't see how Shadow's Super form changes anything. Sonic took a harsh blow to the stomach, and fell unconcious. Rosalina can provide plenty of much, much harsher blows.

Also, if you read my post thoroughly, you'd notice I said he was sweating and huffing. He was fatigued.

Also what misrepresentation am I giving? Seems to me you just don't thoroughly read my posts and don't know what you're talking about (really, Hyper Shadow? That rumour was officially nipped in the bud years ago). I am not bent out of shape because of Rosalina. I take issue with Munomario's persistent need to portray Sonic as an infallible Gary Stu, which is a gross misrepresentation of his character. Over-glorifying Sonic's abilities to this degree is exactly why a lot of people look down on the Sonic fan base, even though it's just a vocal minority who think about him in this way.

Also FYI, I have no bias when discussing Sonic and Rosalina. I love both characters equally, and have been a Sonic fan for far longer than I have been a Rosalina fan. Hell, look at my name sake. I just don't appreciate misrepresenting either character, in a way that undermines them OR glorifies them.

 

[Wintropy]

Still waiting for a Ganondorf vs Palutena street brawl.

I'd pay good money to watch 'em duke it out. No weapons or anything, just both of 'em backhanding the other into oblivion. There's a Smash match for ya~ >w<

EDIT: 4,444th post~ That's good luck~ <3

 

[Nerdicon]

Came back to read this thread for old times sake.

My god, it's been ruined beyond repair.

At this point, it should really be renamed "Post your incredibly biased and terrible fan fictions!".

Very much true in some cases.
You need to offer up irrefutable facts and then your posts will be considered.
It's really because one person is in control of the entire bracket and if he doesn't agree with you things don't get changed
Oh well. It's still fun for me.

I'd probably be biased if I ran the discussion too

 

[Munomario777]

Just remember that goes both ways

Duly noted.

Pits, Lava, Poison Water? (this killed you with a Mega Mushroom in other games), and being crushed all kill any form.
Oddly enough, Volcano Smog could also kill star users in one hit. If Palutena or Pit got the poison cloud...

Okay, let me know when Palutena gets the power to create bottomless pits, pools of lava, and pools of poisonous water. I believe Thwomps are destroyed when they try to crush someone using a Mega Mushroom or a Star. The volcano smog can be treated as a bottomless pit-type hazard, since it was basically a way to represent the edge of the screen, and to convey to the player that this particular autoscroller was deadly, as opposed to, say, the airship levels.

Anyway I'll post my version of the Palutena vs Rosalina match-up whenever homework stops sapping all my free time.

M'kay.

I've think I've explained why that isn't necessarily a kill already but, the bit that sucks Mario in before he can be considered toast is called the ergosphere which while powerful,l is escapable. It's perfectly possible that Mario just doesn't move fast enough to avoid getting caught.

I dunno, spaghettification would probably kill anyone, even a Palutena-level goddess. What makes you think that Palutena could travel more quickly than Mario in midair in time to escape the black hole? Warp would be negated if Rosalina simply created a black hole at the battle's starting point. If we're ignoring that aspect of Warp, then she could simply repeat the black hole creation until Palutena runs out of Warp uses.

I'll be getting to the power-ups, you just wait...
I don't think there's any argument on the efficiency of Rosalina's shield, it's seemingly indestructible.

Yeah, it is pretty tough.

There's a bit of a continuity error on that front. Since Rosalina clearly falls in every game outside SMG and SMG2 she should die when getting too close to a black hole. But at the same time, in SMG and SMG2 she's floating constantly and appears in front of a supermassive black hole without being fazed. Then again, the Rosalina at the end of SMG might've just been some sort of astral projection or something. In my opinion Rosalina should be affected by strong gravity

The main reason that Rosalina falls in 3D World is because of the game she's in; it wouldn't be much of a platformer if you could fly through the whole level. The example you brought up where Rosalina survives close proximity to a supermassive black hole also suggests that she is immune to gravity, or can at least turn her resistance to it on and off at will.

No, Games = Sonic X. Both are equally relevant, as they came from the same people. Yuji Naka is literally to Sonic what Sakurai is to Kirby, or to Kid Icarus: Uprising. You do not get more say than he does. Also, Sonic is merely faced with Eggman's badniks and whatever bosses he is allowed to fight in the games. Of course he is allowed to defeat the former easily, and the latter through game design. It's not impossible to lose in a Super Sonic boss fight, Sonic can be damaged.

Also Sonic having 999,999 Rings is another issue I have entirely, but I won't get into that. Like I said, I don't intend to stick around here.

I'm not saying that Sonic X isn't relevant. I'm saying that, if there's a contradiction between the games and Sonic X, then we should go with the games. In Sonic X, Super Sonic can be knocked out by a regular punch. In the games, he cannot be knocked out by a regular punch. The two cannot both be true; thus, we must only use one. Now we need to find out which one to use. The games are Sonic's original media, they are both earlier and more recent than the show, and they are the main medium we're using (Smash is a video game with video game characters). Thus, in this scenario, it's best to go with the games.

The machine wasn't built to hold the energy of the Chaos Emeralds, as it continues to hold Sonic even after the Emeralds have been drained, and before he turns into the Werehog.

I'd imagine holding Sonic in place would be crucial to harnessing energy from his body efficiently (it would be rather difficult if he was running/flying around at super speeds). A gas hole holds the gas pump in place to get the gasoline out more efficiently, and the machine holds Sonic in place to get the Emeralds out more efficiently.

It's just some kind of gravitational field that holds Sonic in (if you watch before Sonic is latched inside the middle, he tried to get out but is already trapped within the circle of effect and is THEN pulled into the middle). And Sonic is most definitely in pain in the scene. He has a blood curtling scream of pain throughout the entire scene. His face is that of pure agony throughout. You are literally reaching to try and claim he is not in pain.

Either a gravitational field of the restraint just moving to the center. Either way, it still has the ultimate purpose of getting the Emeralds out of Sonic and into the cannon's power supply. He might be in pain, but that doesn't mean he's being damaged physically. Knocking your funny bone the wrong way doesn't feel very pleasant, but there's no real harm done to your body. Further evidence comes in the fact that Sonic survives this, a Werehog transformation (which may be the cause of the apparent pain that Sonic's in), a fall from space, and a landing so hard that his head was embedded in the ground without a scratch on his body or signs of significant internal damage. You'd think that if Sonic was hurt by the machine, then he would show it at least after atmospheric re-entry. Either way, this is irrelevant, since Sonic wouldn't encounter anyone with this type of machine in this scenario.

 

[ChikoLad]

In Sonic X, Super Sonic can be knocked out by a regular punch.

I didn't say it was a regular punch. A punch from the Ultimate Life Form being powered by the Chaos Emeralds is not a regular punch. As I described it, it's a really harsh blow. Rosalina has even harsher at her disposal.

I'd imagine holding Sonic in place would be crucial to harnessing energy from his body efficiently (it would be rather difficult if he was running/flying around at super speeds). A gas hole holds the gas pump in place to get the gasoline out more efficiently, and the machine holds Sonic in place to get the Emeralds out more efficiently.

He's still holding Sonic in with a gravitational force that he could not escape. Rosalina can do this too, and it's even implemented into her Smash moveset (albeit to a much tamer degree).

He might be in pain, but that doesn't mean he's being damaged physically.

By principle that is true, but not the case here. Also, Super Sonic can be damaged physically, as I already explained.

Further evidence comes in the fact that Sonic survives this, a Werehog transformation (which may be the cause of the apparent pain that Sonic's in), a fall from space, and a landing so hard that his head was embedded in the ground without a scratch on his body or signs of significant internal damage.

Sonic only survived that because Chip broke his fall. It otherwise would have been a fatal injury:

Anyway, I'm done here.

 

[Munomario777]

I didn't say it was a regular punch. A punch from the Ultimate Life Form being powered by the Chaos Emeralds is not a regular punch. As I described it, it's a really harsh blow. Rosalina has even harsher at her disposal.

Ah, I see. Still, Sonic can take blows from god monsters without being knocked out; he only loses a few Rings. In fact, Sonic fights the ultimate life form in Sonic Adventure 2 (in the form of either Shadow the Hedgehog or the Biolizard depending on how you look at it), and he doesn't get knocked unconscious when he's hit by them.

He's still holding Sonic in with a gravitational force that he could not escape. Rosalina can do this too, and it's even implemented into her Smash moveset (albeit to a much tamer degree).

He could teleport out with Chaos Control to escape the grasp.

By principle that is true, but not the case here. Also, Super Sonic can be damaged physically, as I already explained.

Why is that not the case here? He doesn't seem to be damaged physically; he doesn't drop any Rings, after all, and there isn't a scratch on his body; he's also at peak physical performance after the event.

Sonic only survived that because Chip broke his fall:

Yes, Chip did break his fall, but he can survive falls from that sort of height on his own. The differences in height between the Egg Carrier and Robotnik's giant space cannon don't make a difference here, since A) terminal velocity limits Sonic's speed, and B) Sonic experienced atmospheric reentry in the Unleashed opening, since he reentered the atmosphere; he just didn't hit the ground after it.

Anyway, I'm done here.

Okay, bye.

 

[ChikoLad]

Ah, I see. Still, Sonic can take blows from god monsters without being knocked out; he only loses a few Rings. In fact, Sonic fights the ultimate life form in Sonic Adventure 2 (in the form of either Shadow the Hedgehog or the Biolizard depending on how you look at it), and he doesn't get knocked unconscious when he's hit by them.

Rough blows are not comparable to a harsh, precise, calculated, powerful punch to the gut.

He could teleport out with Chaos Control to escape the grasp.

Clearly not, he didn't do it there in Unleashed.

Why is that not the case here? He doesn't seem to be damaged physically; he doesn't drop any Rings, after all, and there isn't a scratch on his body; he's also at peak physical performance after the event.

...Rings are a gameplay mechanic. They aren't literally how Sonic functions in the context of his universe in terms of lore. Just like Mario and his Mushrooms. Sonic, in terms of the lore of his actual universe, is still just a biological life form who needs to eat, drink, rest, can be hurt and injured, etc. His health isn't really powered by Rings in-canon, only in-gameplay, as the mechanic has been praised as quite forgiving and fair, more so than a normal health bar would be in his games.

Yes, Chip did break his fall, but he can survive falls from that sort of height on his own.

No he can't, there is a huge difference between falling from space and falling from a bit up into the sky. Sonic even tried to hold on for dear life before falling out. Also, see the amount of Super Sonic boss battles, where Sonic (and Shadow) can die by losing their super form and falling to Earth. Or heck, ever played Final Rush in Sonic Adventure 2?

 

[Munomario777]

Rough blows are not comparable to a harsh, precise, calculated, powerful punch to the gut.

I'd say lava, energy attacks fueled by gemstones of ultimate power (i.e. Chaos Spear and such), attacks from gods of destruction, and the other things Super Sonic has shrugged off are more powerful than a punch to the gut.

Clearly not, he didn't do it there in Unleashed.

That's mainly because the Emeralds required for Chaos Control were being sucked out of him.

...Rings are a gameplay mechanic. They aren't literally how Sonic functions in the context of his universe in terms of lore. Just like Mario and his Mushrooms. Sonic, in terms of the lore of his actual universe, is still just a biological life form who needs to eat, drink, rest, can be hurt and injured, etc. His health isn't really powered by Rings in-canon, only in-gameplay, as the mechanic has been praised as quite forgiving and fair, more so than a normal health bar would be in his games.

I'd rather not get into it again now, but it was recently agreed that we would be taking this sort of health system into account here. Either way, even without taking Rings into account, Sonic doesn't show any signs of physical damage, while Chip got hit hard enough in the head to get severe amnesia.

No he can't, there is a huge difference between falling from space and falling from a bit up into the sky. Sonic even tried to hold on for dear life before falling out. Also, see the amount of Super Sonic boss battles, where Sonic (and Shadow) can die by losing their super form and falling to Earth. Or heck, ever played Final Rush in Sonic Adventure 2?

Terminal velocity (the "speed cap" at which gravity and air resistance balance out to prevent a falling object from accelerating beyond that point) mitigates the difference in velocity between falling from the Egg Carrier's height and falling from space; humans can reach this point of maximum acceleration by just jumping off of a skyscraper. Granted, Sonic's terminal velocity may be different due to his size, but he would still likely reach it by falling from the Egg Carrier's altitude. Of course, surviving atmospheric reentry without being burnt to a crisp is another story, but he survived that in Unleashed's intro; Chip didn't interfere until Sonic was relatively close to the ground, so Sonic was still re entering the atmosphere unassisted. He probably held on because he was still trying to defeat Robotnik, which would be hindered by him falling back to earth (shown by the fact that he has to go through the levels and such to get back to Robotnik). Similarly, the main reason for a life being lost when Rings run out in a Super Sonic boss is that if Sonic falls to earth, he isn't in space anymore, and he can no longer defeat the boss (due to the boss being in space and, in some cases, Super Sonic's enhanced abilities being required to defeat the boss).

 

[Warlock*G]

 

[ChikoLad]

See this is why I don't like posting here. You make up rules and then I have to point out how they are bull, and then you start making assumptions about miniscule things in some attempt to make things sound in favour of Sonic and him alone, no matter the character in question.

By the way, was it not you who once said "game health systems should not be taken as canon"? Not that Sonic is trouble for someone like Rosalina either way, but I like how you suddenly throw it out the window so Sonic can have "eleven day invincibility".

**** thread has truly gone to ****.

 

[Warlock*G]

See this is why I don't like posting here. You make up rules and then I have to point out how they are bull, and then you start making assumptions about miniscule things in some attempt to make things sound in favour of Sonic and him alone, no matter the character in question.

By the way, was it not you who once said "game health systems should not be taken as canon"? Not that Sonic is trouble for someone like Rosalina either way, but I like how you suddenly throw it out the window so Sonic can have "eleven day invincibility".

**** thread has truly gone to ****.

1) Breathe deeply.
2) Admit to yourself that Doc Louis is TEH STRONGEST EVAER!
3) Stop giving so much of a ****.

 

[ChikoLad]

1) Breathe deeply.
2) Admit to yourself that Doc Louis is TEH STRONGEST EVAER!
3) Stop giving so much of a ****.

I'm perfectly calm, I'm just pointing out craps when I see it.

Through A VISION.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I think @Dryn mentioned in the past that Samus has a visor to spot weak points or something along those lines.
It seems like the medallion has quite a bit of start-up, though, so Samus could easily gain speed in the downtime. I haven't played a Metroid game to completion, but aren't there some instances of earthquakes in Super Metroid? Can she use the Speed Booster when those are occurring? It doesn't seem like the one at the beginning of the game hinders her regular movement.
The suit would aid her stamina and such, given that the upgrade is what provides the added speed.

Her Scan visor can analyze weaknesses, but does she really need one for a glass bottle? Wouldn't matter since Link would have magic armor so whatever he shot would just bounce off his back while he runs away drinking.

It says there are, but I'm not aware of any footage of her using speed booster during one. Also, Link's quake medallion actually kills/petrifies enemies, unlike the Zebes one, so I don't think it's a stretch to say the Quake Medallion (I've been mistakenly calling it the Bombos medallion) is stronger and not really comparable.
That being said, the wiki says in Super Metroid it only takes Speed booster 1 second to activate in Super Metroid, and the start-up time for Quake Medallion is 2 seconds, so it's a moot point unless he can paralyze her.

And yea I know she has a suit, but we're still talking about 3 straight days. I understand she'd nearly superhuman but even that seems like a stretch. But I'm not banking on that as a counter so I'll have to see if there isn't a more solid counter.

She could use a Super Star or Mega Mushroom as well, which would allow her to retain mobility to prevent this from happening

True, although those only work once and for a limited time.
Although that may be all she needs.

You're right. It was no joke. It appears to me that you're confident in composite Link winning, which is why I said that. Still, you're right. That was rather biased of me to say. I apologize. Honestly, Link is taking most of my time to write information about him because I'm looking for all his attack, defense, and speed enhancements. It'd be simpler if I was working with one incarnation.

I'm only confident in him winning because of the whole 3 day plus invincibility thing. Not to mention however many hits his 250k of rupees can sustain for his magic armor once that runs out. I've already said though that I'm confident once Link runs out of his various invincible granting items that Samus would beat him due to being faster and her weapons moving faster. I just haven't seen a solid counter (not convinced she can run 3 days straight non-stop) to how she lasts that long.

@ ShadowLBlue Oh, well I don't see why Mewtwo couldn't wipe minds.
.

If he can wipe minds, he can temporarily daze anyone and possibly make them even forget how to fight. Even if we go only with the former, Mewtwo might be able to beat even Sonic and composite Link now.

@ Munomario777
I actually agree with @ ChikoLad that Super Sonic isn't totally invincible, although not from a gut punch. (FYI using the health systems of characters was not muno's idea, most, if not all, of us agreed to it.)
But like muno said, who on Smash has the ability to: crush sonic with the weight of heavy machinery; make him drown; or wrap him up in a special energy containing field and suck out his energy?
I do agree with @ Diddy Kong think he should be vulnerable to psychics though. I feel like unless he has a stated special resistance to psychic attacks, he should be vulnerable to them. I look at it a bit like Superman: mostly invulnerable to everything but kryptonite, but being attacked by psychics is a different thing than resisting energy/physical attacks. (Of course I realize his vulnerability to psychics varies by the writer but I think you get my point).
I also think the following should be able to hurt him:

• since we've seen Sonic be injured by deities, Palutena and maybe even the Zelda characters (since the triforce does grant divine power, or something like that) should be able hurt him.
• Ditto for the non-Roy and Robin FE-characters since they all have holy weapons.
• Rosalina's black hole if he gets to close.
• I believe in at least one game that Super Sonic could be hurt/lose rings to a final eggman robot, which suggests an extremely powerful attack could injure him. The problem would be determining what attacks qualify.

Doesn't necessarily mean they could beat him, but I do think they could hurt him.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

I really just can't see how anyone can beat pit.He beats gods for living.I really can't see someone beating him.The closest in my head would be a link or sonic maybe a kirby

 

[ChikoLad]

But like muno said, who on Smash has the ability to: crush sonic with the weight of heavy machinery; make him drown; or wrap him up in a special energy containing field and suck out his energy?

Rosalina does. She controls gravity. She can manipulate whole galaxies, she can lift someone into water and force them to drown that way, and she can generally just hold people in place.

Hold him in place. And hit him hard. Literally that's all she has to do.

I really just can't see how anyone can beat pit.He beats gods for living.I really can't see someone beating him.The closest in my head would be a link or sonic maybe a kirby

With the assistance of gods.

 

[Wintropy]

I really just can't see how anyone can beat pit.He beats gods for living.I really can't see someone beating him.The closest in my head would be a link or sonic maybe a kirby

I was gonna write out an explanation as to why Pit isn't really that strong and I realised that well yeah he's pretty good alright.

If only because of sheer tenacity and divine blessing. He's small and scrawny, but he's a wiry little scrapper, and he's got a near-infinite arsenal of weapons at his disposal. Not to mention godly powers. That's gotta be worth something!

I'd say a lot of people could beat him in a one-on-one brawl. Without Palutena's help, he's basically just an athletic teenager with a shiny bow and wings that don't even work.

It also depends on how that character fights and in what context. If it was an old-fashioned fist-up, then somebody like Little Mac or Captain Falcon would be on top, since they're at peak physical potential and don't need weapons or superhuman powers to fight. Ganondorf would be alright, he's got fists of steel, and Bowser's good too. Pretty much any big strong guy that doesn't need a weapon to fight would be okay.

Now let's say that mundane weapons are allowed for this occasion. Suddenly guys like Dedede, Marth, Lucina, Ike and so on are capable of holding their own. They don't have any magical powers or supernatural abilities, they just need something to fight with and they'll be able to hold their own.

In a broader context, it becomes much more abstract and open to debate. Pitting Palutena against Mac, for example, would be a massacre: kinda hard to fight a genuine goddess with just a few swift jabs and right hooks. Likewise, somebody like Mewtwo would beat almost anybody else in a fair fight, since he's got fancy psychic powers and the like. But both Palutena and Mewtwo would be less than useless in a battle of fisticuffs.

When you get right down to it, I think the system's pretty unbalanced in favour of characters that naturally have superpowers and reality-warping abilities. Somebody like Mac or Marth wouldn't stand a chance against that, and it's pretty much a weighted duel in favour of the combatant that can split the earth in two with a light tap. That's why Smash is so fun and exciting: it puts every character, regardless of power and omnipotence, on a level playing field and lets them fight in a fair and balanced context. Master Hand is quite the clever dextral appendage~

 

[Crystanium]

In any case, I don't see how Shadow's Super form changes anything. Sonic took a harsh blow to the stomach, and fell unconcious. Rosalina can provide plenty of much, much harsher blows.

It changes the fact that Shadow's super form is enhances his abilities. If Rosalina can dish out some serious attacks, then present it. Your other post pages ago wasn't convincing.

Also, if you read my post thoroughly, you'd notice I said he was sweating and huffing. He was fatigued.

I read.

Also what misrepresentation am I giving? Seems to me you just don't thoroughly read my posts and don't know what you're talking about (really, Hyper Shadow? That rumour was officially nipped in the bud years ago).

You're trying to undermine Sonic's super form when he's facing opponents who are in his league. Also, I referred to Shadow's super form as "Hyper Shadow" because the Greek word "hyper-" means "above", much like the Latin word, supra- means "above". I don't care about any rumors that were made in the past, as I didn't know of any rumors. I'm not a fan of Sonic, so why would I invest my time in his series?

I am not bent out of shape because of Rosalina. I take issue with Munomario's persistent need to portray Sonic as an infallible Gary Stu, which is a gross misrepresentation of his character. Over-glorifying Sonic's abilities to this degree is exactly why a lot of people look down on the Sonic fan base, even though it's just a vocal minority who think about him in this way.

I do agree with you that Sonic is being glorified here, but let's not call the kettle black.

Also FYI, I have no bias when discussing Sonic and Rosalina. I love both characters equally, and have been a Sonic fan for far longer than I have been a Rosalina fan. Hell, look at my name sake. I just don't appreciate misrepresenting either character, in a way that undermines them OR glorifies them.

So, you're like me when it comes to a character one enjoys, but hates when said character is glorified beyond belief. I'm fine with that.

 

[Munomario777]

Her Scan visor can analyze weaknesses, but does she really need one for a glass bottle? Wouldn't matter since Link would have magic armor so whatever he shot would just bounce off his back while he runs away drinking.

Very true.

It says there are, but I'm not aware of any footage of her using speed booster during one. Also, Link's quake medallion actually kills/petrifies enemies, unlike the Zebes one, so I don't think it's a stretch to say the Quake Medallion (I've been mistakenly calling it the Bombos medallion) is stronger and not really comparable.
That being said, the wiki says in Super Metroid it only takes Speed booster 1 second to activate in Super Metroid, and the start-up time for Quake Medallion is 2 seconds, so it's a moot point unless he can paralyze her.

Very true.

And yea I know she has a suit, but we're still talking about 3 straight days. I understand she'd nearly superhuman but even that seems like a stretch. But I'm not banking on that as a counter so I'll have to see if there isn't a more solid counter.

Well, it wouldn't really be Samus running; it would be the suit running. If she's running at Mach 1, she wouldn't have to keep running constantly; she could just run a good distance, wait for Link to catch up, and repeat.

True, although those only work once and for a limited time.
Although that may be all she needs.

Ten seconds is more than enough to make a black hole (not to mention the additional twenty-five seconds from the Mega Mushroom plus the Lucky Bell's statue form).

I'm only confident in him winning because of the whole 3 day plus invincibility thing. Not to mention however many hits his 250k of rupees can sustain for his magic armor once that runs out. I've already said though that I'm confident once Link runs out of his various invincible granting items that Samus would beat him due to being faster and her weapons moving faster. I just haven't seen a solid counter (not convinced she can run 3 days straight non-stop) to how she lasts that long.

That's pretty much how I feel. Normally, Samus would trump Link easily, but he has the three-day invincibility and all, which gives Samus quite the challenge.

If he can wipe minds, he can temporarily daze anyone and possibly make them even forget how to fight. Even if we go only with the former, Mewtwo might be able to beat even Sonic and composite Link now.

I think Confusion would be our best comparison to Mewtwo dazing someone in battle, since it confuses the opponent, which is similar to dazing. It only has a ten percent chance of working, so it's risky, but it just might give Mewtwo the upper hand in some scenarios.

@ Munomario777
I actually agree with @ ChikoLad that Super Sonic isn't totally invincible, although not from a gut punch. (FYI using the health systems of characters was not muno's idea, most, if not all, of us agreed to it.)
But like muno said, who on Smash has the ability to: crush sonic with the weight of heavy machinery; make him drown; or wrap him up in a special energy containing field and suck out his energy?

Yeah, I was never saying Super Sonic was 100% invincible; just that the things he does have some weaknesses, but they're a bit irrelevant in this discussion for the reasons you mentioned.

I do agree with @ Diddy Kong think he should be vulnerable to psychics though. I feel like unless he has a stated special resistance to psychic attacks, he should be vulnerable to them. I look at it a bit like Superman: mostly invulnerable to everything but kryptonite, but being attacked by psychics is a different thing than resisting energy/physical attacks. (Of course I realize his vulnerability to psychics varies by the writer but I think you get my point).

I think it's fair to have psychic attacks on the level of deity attacks, depending on the type of attack. For example, a psychic attack where telekinesis is used to hold the opponent in place and throw them at something, throw something at them, or other physical damage shouldn't be effective, since it's based on physical damage rather than psychic damage. Psychic energy attacks like, say, a psychic ray are good to go, since the damage itself comes from the psychic energy.

I also think the following should be able to hurt him:

• since we've seen Sonic be injured by deities, Palutena and maybe even the Zelda characters (since the triforce does grant divine power, or something like that) should be able hurt him.
• Ditto for the non-Roy and Robin FE-characters since they all have holy weapons.
• Rosalina's black hole if he gets to close.
• I believe in at least one game that Super Sonic could be hurt/lose rings to a final eggman robot, which suggests an extremely powerful attack could injure him. The problem would be determining what attacks qualify.

Doesn't necessarily mean they could beat him, but I do think they could hurt him.

Agreed.

Rosalina does. She controls gravity. She can manipulate whole galaxies, she can lift someone into water and force them to drown that way, and she can generally just hold people in place.

Hold him in place. And hit him hard. Literally that's all she has to do.

I assume you mean the fact that some Hungry Lumas turn into water planetoids. If Rosalina lifted Sonic into water, he would still have some options. First off, the drowning isn't instant; he can survive quite a while (twenty-two seconds, according to my sources) after being submerged before having to come up for air, find an air bubble, or put on a Bubble Shield. The Bubble Shield, by the way, is a shield that Sonic can activate at any time, as shown in Sonic Generations, and it protects Sonic from one deadly blow, minor projectiles, and most importantly, drowning. You see where I'm going with this. Rosalina tries to drown Sonic, Sonic uses the Bubble Shield (which won't disappear after being hit if Sonic is in his Super form, by the way), he uses Chaos Control to warp out, and he continues fighting.

Hit him hard with what exactly?

With the assistance of gods.

Agreed.