Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

Rosalina could create a black hole at the location of Palutena's Warp when she reappears, and Warp can only be used five times. Brief Invincibility only grants four five-second bursts of invincibility, whereas the Super Star lasts for ten seconds, the Mega Mushroom lasts for about twenty-five seconds, and the Lucky Bell's invincibility via statue form can be used an infinite amount of times, provided she doesn't get hit in between (the statue form wouldn't stop her from creating black holes, since in Galaxy and its sequel, Star Bits can be fired while performing any action). Rosalina only needs to use the invincibility items for a few of Palutena's attacks anyways (such as the four-use-only Mega Laser), since most of them can be negated by her force field shield.

How would Rosalina even know where she'd reappear? Warp would take her far away, as well. And Transparency would make the goddess invisible if she runs out of invincibility. Item Vacuum would let her take the wand, power-ups, and Star Bits. Meteor Shower can be used as a finisher.

But voting is the best way to decide the winner. Otherwise, we'll just keep debating until the end of time. The winner is Palutena.

 

[Nerdicon]

Very true.

As @Dryn pointed out, a vote isn't always the best way to do things, especially in a debate scenario such as this. The way I see the battle happening is like this:

Yet earlier you agreed to a vote. Rather hypocritical if you ask me. You were pretty quick to agree to a vote when you were sure your opinion would be most popular but when someone else's opinion is more popular you say that it isn't ideal.

• Rosalina activates a Starman instantly using the method I described above.
• Palutena activates a Mega Laser instantly (plus the time it takes for aiming), which might reduce Rosalina to her small form, but the Starman would keep her alive even if she takes a hit.
• During the invincibility period, Rosalina uses the Lumas to regain her health via Health Mushrooms, create black holes, and the like.
• Palutena gets sucked into the black hole(s), which can be aided with Rosalina's force field telekinesis demonstrated on Mario if she tries to run away. Not even light (or the goddess thereof) can escape a black hole.
• If Rosalina runs out of invincibility before finishing Palutena off, she still has the Mega Mushroom or the Lucky Bell to grant her invincibility.

When tossing the item it goes about a character's length away, the effect isn't instant. Not to mention you can't store stars or mega mushrooms in Super Mario 3D World. Plus Palutena can use Warp to get away from the black holes + Playing Dead for invisibility and invincibility. After making herself invisible and invincible she could snipe Rosalina with a well placed Mega Laser or use Invisible Shots + a fast moving light projectile.

Your arguments lack real substance to change the winner, not to mention in votes you have the minority's opinion (as in only you). I've already posted how the bracket should be changed.

 

[Munomario777]

How would Rosalina even know where she'd reappear? Warp would take her far away, as well. And Transparency would make the goddess invisible if she runs out of invincibility. Item Vacuum would let her take the wand, power-ups, and Star Bits. Meteor Shower can be used as a finisher.

By seeing her reappear and sending a Luma to become a black hole there. I believe that in Kid Icarus, Warp only takes you to spawn points, so she would likely reappear at the starting area. Transparency, Item Vacuum, and all of the other Powers are limited-use only. I believe that the Item Vacuum only sucks away pickup items such as the Daybreak pieces and such anyways, not actual weapons.

But voting is the best way to decide the winner. Otherwise, we'll just keep debating until the end of time. The winner is Palutena.

@Dryn actually reminded me that debates aren't the best place for voting; using it in an argument is an appeal to the people fallacy.

Yet earlier you agreed to a vote. Rather hypocritical if you ask me. You were pretty quick to agree to a vote when you were sure your opinion would be most popular but when someone else's opinion is more popular you say that it isn't ideal.

Again, @Dryn reminded me that voting isn't best fit for debates. I suggest we use arguments rather than voting.

When tossing the item it goes about a character's length away, the effect isn't instant. Not to mention you can't store stars or mega mushrooms in Super Mario 3D World. Plus Palutena can use Warp to get away from the black holes + Playing Dead for invisibility and invincibility. After making herself invisible and invincible she could snipe Rosalina with a well placed Mega Laser or use Invisible Shots + a fast moving light projectile.

As I said earlier, the power-up seems to come from the user's stomach (or around that area) in 3D World. If Rosalina simply held her hand there, the power-up would instantly touch her and be applied. As for storing Mega Mushrooms/Starmen:

Kirby should be able to use any copy ability at will, there are plenty of other what-if scenarios in this thread. Disagree with me? In that case

• Samus should not have the bonuses of all her power suits in one
• Sonic can't store shields, or any of the wisps that aren't from lost world
• Robin can't change classes on the fly
• Palutena gets absolutely no powers
• Pit gets to stick with one weapon for the entirety of the discussion
• etc.

Point being, that there are already plenty of what-if scenarios that couldn't necessarily happen, but are counted onto the character because it would take away a key component of the character

Rather hypocritical if you ask me.

As I said earlier, Palutena's Powers are limited-use-only, while Rosalina's protective shield, black hole creation, and other non-power-up abilities are infinite or practically infinite (with a total of 9,999 Star Bits, she won't run out any time soon).

Your arguments lack real substance to change the winner, not to mention in votes you have the minority's opinion (as in only you). I've already posted how the bracket should be changed.

Speaking of appeal to the people...

 

[Nerdicon]

Again, @Dryn reminded me that voting isn't best fit for debates. I suggest we use arguments rather than voting.

Then get better arguments. Your claims fall kinda flat.

As I said earlier, the power-up seems to come from the user's stomach (or around that area) in 3D World. If Rosalina simply held her hand there, the power-up would instantly touch her and be applied. As for storing Mega Mushrooms/Starmen:

Kirby should be able to use any copy ability at will, there are plenty of other what-if scenarios in this thread. Disagree with me? In that case

• Samus should not have the bonuses of all her power suits in one
• Sonic can't store shields, or any of the wisps that aren't from lost world
• Robin can't change classes on the fly
• Palutena gets absolutely no powers
• Pit gets to stick with one weapon for the entirety of the discussion
• etc.

Point being, that there are already plenty of what-if scenarios that couldn't necessarily happen, but are counted onto the character because it would take away a key component of the character
Rather hypocritical if you ask me.

Difference being that copy essence deluxe exist in practically all the games, they're just portable in KSS. Does the bell copy essence deluxe exist? Yes. Is it possible for Rosalina to carry a limited time power-up? No. If you disagree then both the anime and Squeak Squad have a different way of storing abilities. By storing them in his stomach he can access them at any time. As for the instant power-up thing, if your example were the case then the power-up would activate instantly, which it doesn't because the power-up has to go one character distance away before the collision detection registers your character using the item. This could be argued as a game mechanic, but if it was just a game mechanic what purpose does it serve? The delay between dropping an item and the item being obtainable also exists in New Super Mario Bros.

As I said earlier, Palutena's Powers are limited-use-only, while Rosalina's protective shield, black hole creation, and other non-power-up abilities are infinite or practically infinite (with a total of 9,999 Star Bits, she won't run out any time soon).

Speaking of appeal to the people...

Rosalina's protective shield is absolutely useless in this situation: all of Palutena's attacks are light based. Did I mention that you proposed a vote be in order? If you are the minority opinion and have less than stellar arguments than why don't you just change the bracket? I could guarantee that if our positions were switched you would've already changed the bracket and moved on.

 

[Munomario777]

Then get better arguments. Your claims fall kinda flat.

Care to elaborate?

Difference being that copy essence deluxe exist in practically all the games, they're just portable in KSS. Does the bell copy essence deluxe exist? Yes. Is it possible for Rosalina to carry a limited time power-up? No. If you disagree then both the anime and Squeak Squad have a different way of storing abilities. By storing them in his stomach he can access them at any time. As for the instant power-up thing, if your example were the case then the power-up would activate instantly, which it doesn't because the power-up has to go one character distance away before the collision detection registers your character using the item. This could be argued as a game mechanic, but if it was just a game mechanic what purpose does it serve? The delay between dropping an item and the item being obtainable also exists in New Super Mario Bros.

Actually, the ones in later games are only Copy Essences; only the Deluxe ones can be stored. Can Kirby store the Bell power-up in the Kirby games? No. Copy Essences and their Deluxe variants are comparable to power-ups and ones in storage; characters can pick up power-ups on the ground to use them then and there, but only a portion of them can be stored. The reason that the power-up doesn't activate instantly is because there isn't a function in the game where the player can control Mario and co.'s arms separately, so they can't catch the power-up. Power-ups activate on contact, including contact with the user's arms. This particular game mechanic serves the purpose of letting players share items (i.e. player 1 drops an item to give to player 2). When I mentioned the New Super Mario Bros. series, I was specifically referring to the entries on the Wii and Wii U, which instantly equip the power-ups (and Stars can also be stored there, by the way).

Rosalina's protective shield is absolutely useless in this situation: all of Palutena's attacks are light based. Did I mention that you proposed a vote be in order? If you are the minority opinion and have less than stellar arguments than why don't you just change the bracket? I could guarantee that if our positions were switched you would've already changed the bracket and moved on.

Most of the Powers aren't light based. While Palutena's light attacks may pierce the shield, Rosalina could either:
a) use Lumas as a shield to block the attacks
b) use a black hole (or multiple black holes) to curve them to avoid impact/suck them in completely
c) simply move out of the way, since most of them aren't that fast
Actually, you're the one that proposed a vote:

(...) can we just get a tally on how many people agree with you? I mean really.

Anyway, I'm working on a redone VS in light of new information.

 

[Munomario777]

VSV2
FIGHT!

Rules are the usual, ten mile cubed arena, no allies, etc.

Palutena's Attacks:
's Attack: Powers
Palutena can use many Powers that she bestows Pit throughout Uprising, including the Power of Flight, projectiles, counters, melee attacks, and more.
's Counter: Force Field Shield
Rosalina possesses a force field barrier to protect her from most attacks. She can still use Star Bits during this (and thus feed Lumas to transform into objects), and this can be held up indefinitely.

's Attack: Mega Laser
The elephant in the room, Palutena has a five-time-use laser that goes an extremely long distance at a width of around that of Pit or Palutena. Since this is a laser, it could pass through Rosalina's transparent force field.
's Counter: Starman/Mega Mushroom/Lucky Bell
The Starman item grants Rosalina about ten seconds of invincibility and the power of touch damage, the Mega Mushroom makes her an invincible giant for about twenty-five seconds, and the Lucky Bell turns her into a cat that can turn into an invincible statue an infinite amount of times for about ten seconds at a time. Rosalina can still use her most important attacks (such as the Luma transformations) while using these, due to Star Bits' ability to be fired while performing another action. These could also be equipped instantly despite them flying out of her body before use, since she could simply hold her hand over the place from which the items eject (i.e. they come out of her stomach area, so she holds her hand there, the power-up instantly touches her hand, and is thus instantly applied).
's Counter Counter: Time Limit
These invincibility items all have a time limit, and only one can be used repeatedly.
's Counter Counter Counter: Don't Need It!/Limited Use
Rosalina's black holes and such (more on that after the halfway mark) are very quick in execution, and could finish Palutena off in no time. In addition, Palutena's Powers (including the Mega Laser) are limited-use only.

's Attack: Light Projectiles
Being the Goddess of Light, Palutena possesses some potent light attacks, which could also pierce the force field; however, these don't have limited uses. They include:

• A burst of light with a bit of charge time, but can blind opponents for three seconds
• A large, slow-moving, homing, teal ball of light to damage opponents
• Three fast-moving, homing, but rather thin columns of light
• A slow-moving, homing, light halo that will fire its own light projectiles up to three times before disappearing

's Counter: See below

• The charge time leaves Palutena vulnerable, and Rosalina could simply hold up her force field for those three seconds (not to mention she would probably be using a Starman/Mega Mushroom at this point anyways).
• Since this attack is rather slow, Rosalina could simply dodge it.
• These are rather small and short, so Rosalina could simply fly above the ground and avoid it entirely.
• The points from the second attack apply here. As for the projectiles, Rosalina is skilled at deflecting Star Bits with her wand as shown in Galaxy, and these light projectiles are similar to those.

's Attack: Spinny Spin Spin
This melee attack has Palutena spin around, with rings of light surrounding her.
's Counter: Keeping Distance
Rosalina would only have to stay away from Palutena to dodge the attack due to its short range, and Rosalina wouldn't likely approach Palutena at close range due to her long-distance attacks.

's Attack: Light Column Dash
Palutena surrounds herself in a column of light about 1.5x the size of her other light column attack and zooms across the ground at high speeds, damaging opponents.
's Counter: Still Keeping Distance
Again, Rosalina would likely be out of this attack's range.

's Attack: Great Sacred Treasure
This giant mech has multiple attacks and forms, with arrows, cannons, and more.
's Counter: Force Field Shield
Since most of these attacks aren't light-based, Rosalina's shield should do fine. There is one light-based attack, but Rosalina's Starman/Mega Mushroom/Lucky Bell would negate the damage anyways.

With Palutena's attacks out of the way, it seems like Rosalina has quite the advantage here. However, will Palutena be able to turn that around when Rosalina goes on the offensive?
's Attack: Spinny Spin Spin
Using the power of the Lumas, Rosalina spins around for a short-ranged melee attack.
's Counter: Well... Counter. (Plus keeping distance)
The Counter Power allows Palutena to automatically strike back when attacked, as well as preventing flinching and knockback. However, this, like all of the other Powers, has only a few uses. Thus, she would keep her distance, which she would probably do anyways with her ranged attacks.

's Attack: Luma Transform
Using the power of Star Bits (of which Rosalina has over nine thousand), Lumas can turn into various celestial objects, such as stars, planets, and even black holes!
's Counter: N/A
Palutena does have a Power called Brief Invincibility, which protects her for five seconds, but being a Power, this can only be used four times. A star would fill up the entire ten-mile-cubed arena and then some, planets would allow Rosalina to shape the battlefield and its gravity to her advantage, and since black holes can be created extremely quickly (two or three seconds and 300 Star Bits gets you an entire galaxy with multiple black holes, planets, and more), she could fill the entire arena with these death traps.

CONCLUSION: While Palutena has many different attacks, their limited use along with Rosalina's defensive and offensive techniques meant that she couldn't quite triumph over the queen of the cosmos. Not even Light (or the Goddess thereof) can escape a black hole.

WINNER:

This analysis is part of the bracket

 

[Wintropy]

Not to be hyper-critical, but perusing the specifications of these matchups, I find the power-up system to be grossly unbalanced.

You're pitting characters like Mario, who has literally decades of pedigree and the ability to ostensibly activate power-ups that renders him physically invulnerable at will, against characters like Palutena, who has at best three games of non-playable status with which to draw her powers from.

It just seems like you're pitting two martial artists against eachother, but one of them gets to wield a chainsaw because he carved a sculpture with a chainsaw before.

But then I'm not involved in this process, so far be it from me to tell you you're doing it incorrectly. Just suggesting that you may want to reconsider your methodology, is all.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Wintropy
With such a diverse cast of characters to work with, it's inevitable that some match ups will be a bit unbalanced. That does make winners a bit easier to determine, though.

Also, as a side note: Palutena's three non-playable appearances do grant her quite a few helpful moves. Being the one who grants Pit his Powers, she can use those in battle, and giant lasers, black hole-type attacks, and such are nothing to scoff at. She also has the light-based attacks she's shown wielding in Uprising, as well as levitation and such. Ultimately, however, Rosalina's cosmic attacks did sort of overpower her, especially since the Powers are limited-use-only.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Wintropy
With such a diverse cast of characters to work with, it's inevitable that some match ups will be a bit unbalanced. That does make winners a bit easier to determine, though.

Also, as a side note: Palutena's three non-playable appearances do grant her quite a few helpful moves. Being the one who grants Pit his Powers, she can use those in battle, and giant lasers, black hole-type attacks, and such are nothing to scoff at. She also has the light-based attacks she's shown wielding in Uprising, as well as levitation and such. Ultimately, however, Rosalina's cosmic attacks did sort of overpower her, especially since the Powers are limited-use-only.

Uhh I think you just totally disregarded the crux of my point there bra.

My point is that allowing characters to arbitrarily wield items they can potentially find in one or two games throws the whole system off-kilter. It's egregiously advantageous towards one character over another and has nothing to do with their actual innate abilities.

By that logic, Palutena should be able to chug down a Drink of the Gods to restore her to full health, or incinerate Rosie with the Great Sacred Treasure.

But whatever floats. It's not my place to tell you it's a bad system when I don't even know the point of it.

 

[Munomario777]

Uhh I think you just totally disregarded the crux of my point there bra.

My point is that allowing characters to arbitrarily wield items they can potentially find in one or two games throws the whole system off-kilter. It's egregiously advantageous towards one character over another and has nothing to do with their actual innate abilities.

By that logic, Palutena should be able to chug down a Drink of the Gods to restore her to full health, or incinerate Rosie with the Great Sacred Treasure.

But whatever floats. It's not my place to tell you it's a bad system when I don't even know the point of it.

Well, a Drink of the Gods can only be found on the ground in a mission, and cannot be stored for later use. As for the Great Sacred Treasure, I actually included that in the analysis I just did; most of the attacks can be blocked by her force field, and the one that does pierce it is still negated by the Starman, the Mega Mushroom, or the Lucky Bell. It's not including anything they could potentially find; it's having them in the best situation possible, with them having anything they could carry (to be specific, full ammo, full health, all of their weapons, and one of each consumable/a full inventory, among other things that are character-specific). Another example is Link. He could potentially find a hundred hearts/magic bottles/etc. if he looked hard enough in the bushes and such, but he can't store them for later use; they refill the health/magic then and there, as opposed to Fairies, which can be caught in a bottle. The reason that Mario and co. have their power-ups is that in many games, they can be stored and be brought out at any time via an inventory system. If every Mario game's power-ups functioned like, say, Super Mario Galaxy, where they cannot be stored, then they wouldn't be a factor in this discussion.

As for what the point of all this is, it's part of a bracket we're doing to answer the OP's question once and for all. Speaking of the bracket, I'm working on a Link VS Mewtwo analysis for the losers' bracket.

 

[Nerdicon]

Care to elaborate?

What am I arguing?
Palutena can defeat Rosalina using Mega Laser as the attack is long-ranged, hits 6 times a second, happens instantly, and goes through solid objects.
Your counterarguments:
It's not in Palutena's nature to attack first (In a life or death situation where the combatants are forced to fight or die)
Palutena should have lag on her Mega Laser (without any evidence or a source)
That the Mega Laser can't be aimed/can't go through Rosalina's shield. (even though there are plenty of scenarios that suggest otherwise)
That Rosalina can not only carry Invincibility Stars and Mega Mushrooms but also apply them instantly (even though the collision detection does not activate for a second so she couldn't pick up a power-up instantly)
That last one is the one we're bringing up now. You have offered up no counterargument to the last and invalid counters for the others. Again, in the only game where Rosalina could store power-ups, they had to be dropped first. How the system worked in games she wasn't in doesn't matter. The cold hard truth is that Rosalina doesn't have access to that ability since she was not present in the game that it exists in.

Actually, the ones in later games are only Copy Essences; only the Deluxe ones can be stored. Can Kirby store the Bell power-up in the Kirby games? No. Copy Essences and their Deluxe variants are comparable to power-ups and ones in storage; characters can pick up power-ups on the ground to use them then and there, but only a portion of them can be stored. The reason that the power-up doesn't activate instantly is because there isn't a function in the game where the player can control Mario and co.'s arms separately, so they can't catch the power-up. Power-ups activate on contact, including contact with the user's arms. This particular game mechanic serves the purpose of letting players share items (i.e. player 1 drops an item to give to player 2). When I mentioned the New Super Mario Bros. series, I was specifically referring to the entries on the Wii and Wii U, which instantly equip the power-ups (and Stars can also be stored there, by the way).

If you won't agree, then we can use the anime version + the copy essences. No biggie. If you do disagree than Rosalina definitely gets no Mega Mushroom or Star.

Most of the Powers aren't light based. While Palutena's light attacks may pierce the shield, Rosalina could either:
a) use Lumas as a shield to block the attacks
b) use a black hole (or multiple black holes) to curve them to avoid impact/suck them in completely
c) simply move out of the way, since most of them aren't that fast

Heavenly Light, Mega Laser, Meteor Shower, and all of Palutena's attacks + Invisible Shots all could defeat Rosalina.

Actually, you're the one that proposed a vote:

Whoops, got a little in the moment there
Just because relying on a vote isn't the best course of action, that doesn't mean it's an invalid tactic in debate. There's a possibility more people agree on something because they find it to be more believable...

 

[Munomario777]

What am I arguing?
Palutena can defeat Rosalina using Mega Laser as the attack is long-ranged, hits 6 times a second, happens instantly, and goes through solid objects.
Your counterarguments:
It's not in Palutena's nature to attack first (In a life or death situation where the combatants are forced to fight or die)
Palutena should have lag on her Mega Laser (without any evidence or a source)

I'm not really relying on those anymore (although I do still believe the former).

That the Mega Laser can't be aimed/can't go through Rosalina's shield. (even though there are plenty of scenarios that suggest otherwise)

I never said it couldn't be aimed; I said it couldn't be moved once already active. The wording on that might have been a bit fuzzy, though. I've since dropped the latter argument.

That Rosalina can not only carry Invincibility Stars and Mega Mushrooms but also apply them instantly (even though the collision detection does not activate for a second so she couldn't pick up a power-up instantly)

Collision detection is only a game mechanic, and not an attribute of the character or a canonical resource, similarly to invincibility frames. If we're using collision detection as an argument, then Rosalina can escape the Mega Laser using her invincibility frames.

That last one is the one we're bringing up now. You have offered up no counterargument to the last and invalid counters for the others. Again, in the only game where Rosalina could store power-ups, they had to be dropped first. How the system worked in games she wasn't in doesn't matter. The cold hard truth is that Rosalina doesn't have access to that ability since she was not present in the game that it exists in.

Why would I provide a counterargument for my own argument? If you drop something, you can pick it up in midair. If Rosalina ejects a power-up from her body, she can touch it before it hits the ground.

If you won't agree, then we can use the anime version + the copy essences. No biggie. If you do disagree than Rosalina definitely gets no Mega Mushroom or Star.

What do you mean by "the anime version" exactly? Can Kirby use any of his Copy Abilities (including those from recent games) without inhaling the respective enemy in the anime? Either way, Kirby isn't the only character involved here; as you pointed out earlier, other examples include Pit, Robin, Sonic, and Samus, with their weapons/classes/Wisps and Shields/upgrades respectively. If we're not letting Rosalina use the Star/Mega Mushroom, then not only do those characters lose their respective abilities, but other Mario characters also cannot use items that weren't in a game with item storage, such as the Caps from Super Mario 64, the Bee Mushroom, the Boo Mushroom, the Spring Mushroom, the Red Star, the Cloud Flower, the Rock Mushroom, and others.

Heavenly Light, Mega Laser, Meteor Shower, and all of Palutena's attacks + Invisible Shots all could defeat Rosalina.

Except they're all negated by the invincibility items, and Meteor Shower is, according to the game's description, a shower of shooting stars. Rosalina is immune to stars, so this attack won't damage her. Invisible Shots could be countered by, other than the Super Star/Mega Mushroom/Lucky Bell, shooting Star Bits across the arena, which would burst apart on impact with the projectiles and if not destroy the projectile, at least reveal its location. Rosalina could fire these Star Bits while performing another action.

Whoops, got a little in the moment there

Happens to all of us.

EDIT: Aaaaaand I lost my progress on Link VS Mewtwo. -.- I'll just put a note on the bracket page like I did with Samus VS Ganon, unless anyone wants to write the analysis.

 

[Nerdicon]

Collision detection is only a game mechanic, and not an attribute of the character or a canonical resource, similarly to invincibility frames. If we're using collision detection as an argument, then Rosalina can escape the Mega Laser using her invincibility frames.

I was saying that as a game mechanic it has no reason to exist and should be considered. But I can settle.

Why would I provide a counterargument for my own argument? If you drop something, you can pick it up in midair. If Rosalina ejects a power-up from her body, she can touch it before it hits the ground.

You know what, I'm not going to convince you then. It's impossible.

What do you mean by "the anime version" exactly? Can Kirby use any of his Copy Abilities (including those from recent games) without inhaling the respective enemy in the anime? Either way, Kirby isn't the only character involved here; as you pointed out earlier, other examples include Pit, Robin, Sonic, and Samus, with their weapons/classes/Wisps and Shields/upgrades respectively. If we're not letting Rosalina use the Star/Mega Mushroom, then not only do those characters lose their respective abilities, but other Mario characters also cannot use items that weren't in a game with item storage, such as the Caps from Super Mario 64, the Bee Mushroom, the Boo Mushroom, the Spring Mushroom, the Red Star, the Cloud Flower, the Rock Mushroom, and others.

Yes actually, in the anime Kirby's stomach is actually and endless pocket dimension in which he can gather enemies he's eaten for abilities. It could be assumed he's just filled up on enemies beforehand. Any way if you want stars for Rosalina, Kirby gets the copy essences at any time.

Except they're all negated by the invincibility items, and Meteor Shower is, according to the game's description, a shower of shooting stars. Rosalina is immune to stars, so this attack won't damage her. Invisible Shots could be countered by, other than the Super Star/Mega Mushroom/Lucky Bell, shooting Star Bits across the arena, which would burst apart on impact with the projectiles and if not destroy the projectile, at least reveal its location. Rosalina could fire these Star Bits while performing another action.

And Rosalina can carry only one item at a time, not to mention there isn't a single example of Lumas turning into invincibility stars or Mega Mushrooms. If Palutena used playing dead she would become invincible and invisible leading to an easy Mega Laser. May I remind you that Mega Laser hits 6 times a second and lasts for 4 seconds?

 

[Munomario777]

I was saying that as a game mechanic it has no reason to exist and should be considered. But I can settle.

Yes, and that's what I'm saying for collision detection (or in this case, lack thereof).

You know what, I'm not going to convince you then. It's impossible.

M'kay. I still don't see what's stopping Rosalina from holding out her hand to touch the power-up once it comes out. If you'll explain why she wouldn't be able to hold her arms out to touch the power-up in this scenario other than the fact that 3D World doesn't feature arm movements/lack of collision detection/etc., I'll reconsider.

Yes actually, in the anime Kirby's stomach is actually and endless pocket dimension in which he can gather enemies he's eaten for abilities. It could be assumed he's just filled up on enemies beforehand. Any way if you want stars for Rosalina, Kirby gets the copy essences at any time.

Hmm, interesting. I do think we should go the route of allowing them, though, if only because they're such an integral part of multiple characters here.

And Rosalina can carry only one item at a time, not to mention there isn't a single example of Lumas turning into invincibility stars or Mega Mushrooms. If Palutena used playing dead she would become invincible and invisible leading to an easy Mega Laser. May I remind you that Mega Laser hits 6 times a second and lasts for 4 seconds?

The rule is one of each consumable. Either way, though, she would only really need one Star or Mega Mushroom (preferably the latter since it lasts longer) to create a black hole to finish the job. If Palutena used Playing Dead, she could fill the stage with a giant star via Luma transformation, and then once Palutena tried to attack and reappeared (since the invincibility ends upon attacking), she would be instantly scorched by the star no matter where in the arena she chooses to reappear (and she would have to eventually, since it only has a few uses lasting a few seconds each).

 

[Crystanium]

@ Wintropy I do agree with you regarding the unfairness of one character against another. I personally feel that Samus was pitted against Ganondorf because she's already a powerful character alone. Removing her allows for Ganondorf to be pushed up on the tier list. The idea behind most Ganondorf supporters is that nothing can harm him except the power to repel evil. This would make it a spite match. It's like having Ness fight Pikachu. He'd render Pikachu useless, due to the Franklin Badge. Here's who I think should face off against each other.

vs. Both are classic rivals.
vs. The two are partners of the aforementioned classic rivals.
vs. Whose kingdom will rule?
vs. Dragons. What else needs to be said?
vs. They're rotund and rivals of the main protagonist.
vs. Dark Pit is similar to Pit, but I don't recall him demonstrating as many feats as Pit.
vs. The captain of a goddess against the evil king whose blessing is from a goddess.
vs. Cyborg versus android.
vs. Both are athletic and trained.
vs. They possess psychic abilities and are from role-playing games.
vs. Flat and featless.

I'm not sure who else should fight who, honestly, but that's my list so far and I think it could make more sense. However, I am writing a match between Samus and a composite form of Link, only because someone here honestly thinks Samus would lose. This in no way will be used for a match-up, but I thought I should address it anyway. If we're using composite Link at any other time, then I think a few other characters should be treated with fairness.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I do agree with you regarding the unfairness of one character against another. I personally feel that Samus was pitted against Ganondorf because she's already a powerful character alone. Removing her allows for Ganondorf to be pushed up on the tier list. The idea behind most Ganondorf supporters is that nothing can harm him except the power to repel evil. This would make it a spite match. It's like having Ness fight Pikachu. He'd render Pikachu useless, due to the Franklin Badge. Here's who I think should face off against each other.

vs. Both are classic rivals.
vs. The two are partners of the aforementioned classic rivals.
vs. Whose kingdom will rule?
vs. Dragons. What else needs to be said? Neither of these are dragons (Bowser is a turtle, Charizard is a Fire/Flying-type).
vs. They're rotund and rivals of the main protagonist.
vs. Dark Pit is similar to Pit, but I don't recall him demonstrating as many feats as Pit.
vs. The captain of a goddess against the evil king whose blessing is from a goddess.
vs. Cyborg versus android. Samus is neither.
vs. Both are athletic and trained.
vs. They possess psychic abilities and are from role-playing games.
vs. Flat and featless. Pac-Man isn't flat or featless.

I'm not sure who else should fight who, honestly, but that's my list so far and I think it could make more sense. However, I am writing a match between Samus and a composite form of Link, only because someone here honestly thinks Samus would lose. This in no way will be used for a match-up, but I thought I should address it anyway. If we're using composite Link at any other time, then I think a few other characters should be treated with fairness.

Only a few problems with this, I put them in the quote.

Otherwise, good matchups. True that some characters can beat other certain characters through weakness exploiting, where ABC logic doesn't apply. (For example, has a holy weapon and could defeat . is invincible to 's attacks, making him the winner. is more powerful than , and would beat him.)


I came up with matches like yours once, but some of them are stomps. I also disincluded anyone who was cut.

vs (Gaming Icons)
vs (Deuteragonists)
vs (Princesses)
vs (Firebreathers)
vs (Eaters)
vs (Celestials)
vs (Tots)
vs (Fat vs Fit)
vs (Retros)
vs (Brawlers)
vs (Projectile Swordsmen)
vs (Ninja)
vs (Kings)
vs (Gunners)
vs (Alternate Versions)
vs (Punchers)
vs (Pink Balls)
vs (Caped Swordsmen)
vs (RPG Elementals)
vs (RPG Swordsmen)
vs (Robots)
vs (Palette Swaps)
vs (Ear Heads)
vs (Winged Heroes)
vs (2001 Protagonists)

left unmatched.

 

[Nerdicon]

The rule is one of each consumable. Either way, though, she would only really need one Star or Mega Mushroom (preferably the latter since it lasts longer) to create a black hole to finish the job. If Palutena used Playing Dead, she could fill the stage with a giant star via Luma transformation, and then once Palutena tried to attack and reappeared (since the invincibility ends upon attacking), she would be instantly scorched by the star no matter where in the arena she chooses to reappear (and she would have to eventually, since it only has a few uses lasting a few seconds each).

I know what you said about black holes, but a large star like that would take a lot of Star Bits. More than enough for Palutena to catch on to what's happening and defeat them. Rosalina can shoot only one stream of star bits, Palutena would probably be smart enough to defeat the Luma before it gets big enough to be a threat. Now one could argue that since black holes are more massive than stars that it would take less, but the black holes in SMG are impossibly small. The singularity would have to be smaller than microscopic and moderately massive. Not like a real black hole that have near infinite density. Not to mention Palutena could use the item vacuum to swipe Rosalina's power-ups on reaction to her using them.
I also retract my statement about Rosalina's heat immunity. Rosalina should die on contact with the star like she does in SM3DW.
Why? Because in her only playable appearance she died instantly when she fell into lava. And while plasma isn't necessarily lava, it's even hotter than lava and should have the same effect. I can hear you saying "but Rosalina stands in front of star in SMG." Well yeah, but that's trying to apply real world logic to a character, and based on the unsaid hierarchy of discussion (ingame lore >/= gameplay > alternate canon > real world logic). We have a logical example of Rosalina resisting heat, and we have an in-game example of Rosalina dying when coming into contact with extreme heat. One wins over the other.

 

[Crystanium]

Only a few problems with this, I put them in the quote.

Samus is a cyborg. Her powered armor is part of her. Even the old Metroid manual referred to her as a cyborg. Mega Man is an android. I'll present my thoughts.

vs (Gaming Icons)

Mario has no way to react to Sonic.

vs (Deuteragonists)

We agree here. Yay!

vs (Princesses)

We agree here. Yay!

vs (Firebreathers)

We agree here. Yay!

vs (Eaters)

Since you disagreed, what feats does Pac-Man have? I wouldn't want to make it impossible for Pac-Man to have a chance. I like the connection, though.

vs (Celestials)

I wasn't sure if I should have pitted these two together, but I think it would be fair for both.

vs (Tots)

I didn't know Bowser Jr. was in the game. I know he was Shadow Mario in Super Mario Sunshine, but unless he has quite a few feats of his own, it wouldn't be fair. I know he's in the New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii, but even in that game, he's not demonstrating a lot of feats to give him a fair battle against Toon Link.

vs (Fat vs Fit)

Wii Fit has no feats. Wario would automatically win, so it's unfair.

vs (Retros)

This can also work.

vs (Brawlers)

I don't know what that fist is supposed to be. I'd rather have DK face his long-time rival.

vs (Projectile Swordsmen)

I don't know what that sword is supposed to be. If Link isn't fighting Dark Pit, he's probably better off fighting Marth, Ike, or one of those other Fire Emblem characters. It'd need to be a character who is neither too powerful, nor lacking in power.

vs (Ninja)

Interesting, but Sheik isn't a ninja. I think this would probably be an interesting match if Shiek ended up fighting Greninja in the brackets, though.

vs (Kings)

I don't think King Dedede would have any advantage here. It would be better if Ganondorf fought a similar opponent to Link, which is why I think fighting Pit would be interesting. Or at least a Fire Emblem character.

vs (Gunners)

Samus is better off fighting Mega Man. The two have arm cannons, both appeared in Captain N (if you don't know what Captain N is, I won't judge you. I'm an '80s person), and many from a quick Google search wonder who would win.

vs (Alternate Versions)

Sheik is an alternate of Zelda. Zamus is an alternate of Samus. Dr. Mario also stands no chance.

vs (Punchers)

Captain Falcon drives a supersonic vehicle. He's a bounty hunter, not a boxer. Samus is also a bounty hunter, but she'd easily win. Little Mac should fight someone in his league.

vs (Pink Balls)

Interesting choice, but if you're basing your list off similarities, Kirby versus Yoshi would have been a better choice. We need to think about if the match-up is fair.

vs (Caped Swordsmen)

Apparently, Nintendo thinks Meta Knight versus Marth is a better match-up, as seen in SSBB where Meta Knight and Marth have a short battle.

vs (RPG Elementals)

This is an unfair match for Ness.

vs (RPG Swordsmen)

That could work. I don't know enough about the two, but it can work.

vs (Robots)

R.O.B. wouldn't last. The match is unfair.

vs (Palette Swaps)[/quote]

The match would probably heavily favor Lucina, so it wouldn't be fair.

vs (Ear Heads)

Lucario has no chance against someone traveling Mach 4.2 in the Arwing.

vs (Winged Heroes)

Pit would have no advantage, unless he used the Great Sacred Treasure, at which point Falco would lose in a matter of seconds.

vs (2001 Protagonists)

Olimar is too tiny, and so would lose. It's not fair for him.

left unmatched.

Pichu kills itself by electrocution, so . . .

 

[Munomario777]

I know what you said about black holes, but a large star like that would take a lot of Star Bits. More than enough for Palutena to catch on to what's happening and defeat them. Rosalina can shoot only one stream of star bits, Palutena would probably be smart enough to defeat the Luma before it gets big enough to be a threat. Now one could argue that since black holes are more massive than stars that it would take less, but the black holes in SMG are impossibly small. The singularity would have to be smaller than microscopic and moderately massive. Not like a real black hole that have near infinite density.

True. However, Lumas can also fire Star Bits, as shown by the Co-Star mode in Galaxy 2. Thus, multiple Lumas could feed one Luma at once to fuel the massive transformation very quickly.

Not to mention Palutena could use the item vacuum to swipe Rosalina's power-ups on reaction to her using them.

Unless she touches the power-ups instantly. Also, using the Item Vacuum would leave Palutena open and unable to use any other Powers, no?

I also retract my statement about Rosalina's heat immunity. Rosalina should die on contact with the star like she does in SM3DW.
Why? Because in her only playable appearance she died instantly when she fell into lava. And while plasma isn't necessarily lava, it's even hotter than lava and should have the same effect. I can hear you saying "but Rosalina stands in front of star in SMG." Well yeah, but that's trying to apply real world logic to a character, and based on the unsaid hierarchy of discussion (ingame lore >/= gameplay > alternate canon > real world logic). We have a logical example of Rosalina resisting heat, and we have an in-game example of Rosalina dying when coming into contact with extreme heat. One wins over the other.

Well, Rosalina's power over the cosmos could grant her some sort of protection from stars (rather than heat in general, explaining the lava deaths in 3D World), or at least protection from being near them (if you're twenty feet from the sun, you're not going to live very long without some sort of protection). Either way, though, she does still have that protective barrier and all.

 

[Nerdicon]

True. However, Lumas can also fire Star Bits, as shown by the Co-Star mode in Galaxy 2. Thus, multiple Lumas could feed one Luma at once to fuel the massive transformation very quickly.

Fair enough

Unless she touches the power-ups instantly. Also, using the Item Vacuum would leave Palutena open and unable to use any other Powers, no?

No. The effect happens instantly. as well. If Palutena could just predict when Rosalina was going to use an item she could snatch the effect of the power-up. This should be easier than it sounds given Palutena's all knowing knowledge.

Well, Rosalina's power over the cosmos could grant her some sort of protection from stars (rather than heat in general, explaining the lava deaths in 3D World), or at least protection from being near them (if you're twenty feet from the sun, you're not going to live very long without some sort of protection). Either way, though, she does still have that protective barrier and all.

Source? There is no evidence to say that Rosalina is immune to stars. Just because you have power over something does not mean you naturally resist it. Infrared light is an EM wave and therefore goes through Rosalina's shield. Not to mention the rest of the harmful waves emitted by stars.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

About the vs debate, we should just vote, you might say that it doesn't tell who's actually stronger, but it does, considering the fact that there's a debate going on about who is, and the votes are all decided based on who's power was proven stronger.

And we have to take a vote eventually, or there won't ever be a winner. Never. And I don't think everyone on one side is going to change their mind, they're going to keep debating.

I'm undecided again. But since Nerdicon and Dryn both support Palutena, and Muno supports Rosalina, the winner is .

 

[Munomario777]

No. The effect happens instantly. as well. If Palutena could just predict when Rosalina was going to use an item she could snatch the effect of the power-up. This should be easier than it sounds given Palutena's all knowing knowledge.

Ah, okay. I haven't played Uprising, so I'm not too knowledgeable about the specifics. I don't think Palutena could predict, react to, and use the Power quickly enough to catch the power-up, especially when it happens practically instantly, with barely any time with the power-up out in the open. Palutena's all-knowing nature wouldn't help here; the rule is no prior knowledge of the enemy last I checked, and that wouldn't help her here anyways; knowing what has happened in the past doesn't mean she knows exactly when Rosalina will use a power-up and how to counter it.

Source? There is no evidence to say that Rosalina is immune to stars. Just because you have power over something does not mean you naturally resist it. Infrared light is an EM wave and therefore goes through Rosalina's shield. Not to mention the rest of the harmful waves emitted by stars.

She stands near a star in the Comet Observatory constantly without taking damage. Also, there's no magnetic protection on the Observatory like there is on Earth, so Rosalina should be getting bombarded with radiation from the stars in space. She doesn't seem to be hurt by it, however, meaning that either the stars of the Mario universe emit less radiation or Rosalina has some sort of special immunity to them. Either would allow her to use the Luma's star transformations to her advantage, since all those stars out there are Lumas (or at least some portion of them).

@ Kirby Dragons , voting doesn't prove who's more powerful; it shows how many people think one character or the other is more powerful. Besides that, in Dryn's words:

I haven't been paying attention to the match. If it's Rosalina versus Palutena, I felt before that Rosalina isn't as much of a deal as sonicbrawler was making her out to be. I've played KI:U and know that Pit's special abilities come from Palutena herself, so I would put her on equal footing with Pit, only putting her above him in rank by virtue that he's the captain of her army. Again, I haven't been paying attention with the match between Rosalina and Palutena, but my debate with sonicbrawler produced no results to put Rosalina on a higher level than it was expected.

I normally avoid going with what the majority votes for because voting does not indicate who is actually the strongest, it only tells us who thinks would win. Sometimes a vote will suffice if everyone thinks it won't take much to explain why one character is more powerful than the next. I suppose I would choose Palutena, only because I know things about Pit, so again, I take what Pit can do and ascribe it to Palutena.

Since he wasn't really paying attention at the point of voting (and voted for Palutena only because he knew more about Pit, and by extension Palutena, than Rosalina), I say we ask him again to see what he thinks in light of the new information that's been provided recently. If you're going to do voting for a debate, you don't do it in the middle; you do it in the end.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, Rosalina's power over the cosmos could grant her some sort of protection from stars (rather than heat in general, explaining the lava deaths in 3D World), or at least protection from being near them (if you're twenty feet from the sun, you're not going to live very long without some sort of protection). Either way, though, she does still have that protective barrier and all.

Well, "The sun is about 93 million miles away from Earth, and if we think of that distance as a football field, a person starting at one end zone could get about 95 yards before burning up", according to Popular Science. There's 120 yards on a football field, so 95 / 120 multiplied by 93 million gives us 74 million miles before one burns up. Nothing on Earth so far can withstand the heat given off by the Sun.

The only protection one would need from the Sun is heat, ultraviolet radiation, and probably some other things. We shouldn't assume that Rosalina has protection from one and not the other. We have no facts and honestly, I want to work with facts, not assumptions (well, as few assumptions as possible), opinions, &c. If she can be harmed by lava and if stars are magnitudes hotter, then she cannot survive stars.

Considering how those planetoids Mario hops onto would actually violently explode, chances are the stars don't behave the same, either, which sucks because we're using our laws of physics for the series.

Edit: @ Munomario777 , to be fair, I have read a few things from sonicbrawler, who was supporting Rosalina, and as I stated before, I felt his arguments lacking in persuasive power. This would also be another reason why I went in favor of Palutena. I'm not doing it because I like her. I honestly don't care about her. Samus is my main interest. I think I will try focusing on Donkey Kong whenever I have the time.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Kirby Dragons , voting doesn't prove who's more powerful; it shows how many people think one character or the other is more powerful. Besides that, in Dryn's words:

Since he wasn't really paying attention at the point of voting (and voted for Palutena only because he knew more about Pit, and by extension Palutena, than Rosalina), I say we ask him again to see what he thinks in light of the new information that's been provided recently. If you're going to do voting for a debate, you don't do it in the middle; you do it in the end.

Did you even read my post? The vote is based on the debate of who's more powerful, so it does determine the winner. And this debate isn't going to have an end until there's a vote.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, "The sun is about 93 million miles away from Earth, and if we think of that distance as a football field, a person starting at one end zone could get about 95 yards before burning up", according to Popular Science. There's 120 yards on a football field, so 95 / 120 multiplied by 93 million gives us 74 million miles before one burns up. Nothing on Earth so far can withstand the heat given off by the Sun.

The only protection one would need from the Sun is heat, ultraviolet radiation, and probably some other things. We shouldn't assume that Rosalina has protection from one and not the other. We have no facts and honestly, I want to work with facts, not assumptions (well, as few assumptions as possible), opinions, &c. If she can be harmed by lava and if stars are magnitudes hotter, then she cannot survive stars.

Considering how those planetoids Mario hops onto would actually violently explode, chances are the stars don't behave the same, either, which sucks because we're using our laws of physics for the series.

Very true. So Mario stars apparently don't harm people who are very close to them (but still harm people who actually make contact with them, since that's also what happens with lava in that same game). This means that Rosalina filling most of the arena with a star while giving herself some room to breathe is a fairly valid strategy, and could definitely catch Rosalina off guard when playing dead.

Edit: @@Munomario777 , to be fair, I have read a few things from sonicbrawler, who was supporting Rosalina, and as I stated before, I felt his arguments lacking in persuasive power. This would also be another reason why I went in favor of Palutena. I'm not doing it because I like her. I honestly don't care about her. Samus is my main interest. I think I will try focusing on Donkey Kong whenever I have the time.

Well, let me sum things up for you if you don't want to read everything. My main arguments in Rosalina's favor are:

• She can use the Super Star, Mega Mushroom, and Lucky Bell to gain invincibility periods, and can apply them instantly, even though they pop out of her, by holding her hand at the point of her body where they would pop out of so that they instantly touch her hand and activate
• She can create black holes extremely quickly via Hungry Lumas, seeing as how a galaxy with multiple planets, black holes, and such only takes a couple of seconds
• She can create full-scale stars extremely quickly via Hungry Lumas, seeing as how Lumas can also fire Star Bits to speed up the process (also, when Lumas die, they turn into stars)
• Her protective shield can block all attacks besides light- and sound-based ones

Did you even read my post? The vote is based on the debate of who's more powerful, so it does determine the winner. And this debate isn't going to have an end until there's a vote.

No, it determines who everyone thinks is the winner. There's a difference. Anyway, I'm not opposed to a vote if this is going to be the end of the debate. Doing a vote won't do much good if arguments are made right after the voting.

 

[Crystanium]

Very true. So Mario stars apparently don't harm people who are very close to them (but still harm people who actually make contact with them, since that's also what happens with lava in that same game). This means that Rosalina filling most of the arena with a star while giving herself some room to breathe is a fairly valid strategy, and could definitely catch Rosalina off guard when playing dead.

Palutena, you mean. Hehe. Well, the issue is lack of convection. Mario and Donkey Kong games ignore convection, so as long as you're not touching lava, you're not going to be harmed. This seems to be present in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword as well, considering there isn't a Goron tunic in either game, though the latter does provide some sort of heat protection for certain locations. Convection was clearly in Ocarina of Time.

It makes me think of Amaterasu from Naruto. (I don't watch the anime or read the manga. I just know this from what I've read at another message board where I debate.) Amaterasu burns as hot as the Sun (Second Databook, p. 200), but in order to get burned by it, one has to come into direct contact with it. So we could treat the stars similar to Amaterasu, since those who come into direct contact are harmed.

Well, let me sum things up for you if you don't want to read everything. My main arguments in Rosalina's favor are:

• She can use the Super Star, Mega Mushroom, and Lucky Bell to gain invincibility periods, and can apply them instantly, even though they pop out of her, by holding her hand at the point of her body where they would pop out of so that they instantly touch her hand and activate
• She can create black holes extremely quickly via Hungry Lumas, seeing as how a galaxy with multiple planets, black holes, and such only takes a couple of seconds
• She can create full-scale stars extremely quickly via Hungry Lumas, seeing as how Lumas can also fire Star Bits to speed up the process (also, when Lumas die, they turn into stars)
• Her protective shield can block all attacks besides light- and sound-based ones

Well, I wouldn't say mega mushrooms grant invincibility. They grant the ability to destroy things with relative ease, though. I think even Bowser can be defeated by these, so that's impressive. Lucky Bell gives a Tanooki-like ability. The Tanooki suit allows Mario to transform into a statue. I think the idea of becoming stone gives the impression of invulnerability, due to the hardness of the stone. In this case, Rosalina would turn to a gold statue. It would appear that she would be vulnerable to being crushed or from extreme heat.

Gold has a hardness of 2.5 to 3 on Mohs scale of hardness. It has a melting point of 1,064.18°C (1,947.52°F). So it make sense that even as a gold statue, Thwomp and Charvaargh can harm her or any other Mario character in that form. It also appears to be a temporary form of invincibility, which honestly isn't as good as the super star, which allows one to be invincible and mobile.

Black holes and stars could be useful if they behave like ours, but chances are, they don't. The suction quality of these black holes could possibly be utilized, but I'm not sure how powerful the suction is, so it's curious if one can run away from it. The stars might behave like Amaterasu from Naruto. They can be useful if they hit Palutena. I'm not sure how fast they're launched, though.

Well, if Palutena lacks light- and sound-based attacks, then the barrier should help. I'm curious as to how much force it can receive.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Just my two cent's on @ Kirby Dragons match-ups.

FYI, I'd rather match-up Captain Falcon vs Fox if both get their vehicles. And Sonic doesn't match-up well with anyone thanks to Super Sonic being beyond broken. You also forgot Mewtwo, who slotted vs Pikachu for you. Otherwise good match-ups.
vs (Gaming Icons)
Super Sonic wrecks mario after he eventually runs out of invincibility granting power-ups.
vs (Deuteragonists)
Luigi's plethora of invincibility granting power-ups keep him safe, while his gaggle of items let him hurt Diddy Kong without getting close. If Diddy does get close, he has a hammer waiting for him.

vs (Princesses)
Don't know of any skills Zelda has been shown using, and I haven't played Hyrule Warriors, So I'm going with Peach.

vs (Firebreathers)
Good question, I'd go with Charizard off the top of my head since Bowser's fire breath is useless and Charizard should be able to out maneuver him if he hops in the clown car.

vs (Eaters)
Don't know enough about Pac-Man's post arcade games. I'd say Yoshi.

vs (Tots)
Toon Link. Plethora of projectiles plus Magic armor.

vs (Fat vs Fit)
Wario easily. WFT is only human.

vs (Retros)
Regular dog vs shapeshifting black entity? G&W easy.
vs (Brawlers)
DK easily.

vs (Projectile Swordsmen)
Link easily for same reason as mentioned above for Toon Link.
vs (Ninja)
We've never seen Shiek fight on screen outside of Hyrule Warriors, which I haven't played, so Greninja.

vs (Kings)
No holy attacks from DDD = defeat by Ganon.

vs (Gunners)
Samus easy. All she has to do is watch out for his reflector.

vs (Alternate Versions)
Depends on if Dr. Mario gets any of Mario's power-ups. If not, all he's been shown doing is killing viruses. ZSS slight edge.
vs (Punchers)
No amount of boxing prepares you to stop a super fast car coming at you.

vs (Pink Balls)
Kirby easy.

vs (Caped Swordsmen)
Not sure.

vs (RPG Elementals)
Wouldn't Franklin badge reflect Robin's magic? Need to know before I can answer.

vs (RPG Swordsmen)
Marth is immune to direct attacks from non-manaketes and Shulk lacks any projectiles. If Shulk could disarm Marth it would be an easy win for him however.


vs (Palette Swaps)
Dark Pit has too many projectiles for her.

vs (Ear Heads)
Depends on if Fox gets his vehicles.
vs (Winged Heroes).
See above, plus does Pit get 5 minutes of flight?

vs (2001 Protagonists)
Olimar gets stepped on. End.
left unmatched.
You forgot Mewtwo. But we all know Mewtwo slaughters Pikachu.

[/quote]

About the vs debate, we should just vote, you might say that it doesn't tell who's actually stronger, but it does, considering the fact that there's a debate going on about who is, and the votes are all decided based on who's power was proven stronger.

And we have to take a vote eventually, or there won't ever be a winner. Never. And I don't think everyone on one side is going to change their mind, they're going to keep debating.

I'm undecided again. But since Nerdicon and Dryn both support Palutena, and Muno supports Rosalina, the winner is .

Guess my opinion doesn't matter....

Anyway I agree that we're going to have vote eventually, but that should only come if we don't find one argument superior to the other. Or if we've been arguing and the majority agrees one argument is better and the minority can't find compelling evidence for his case (i.e. how we did with all of us vs Drynn about Ganondorf.

Well, I wouldn't say mega mushrooms grant invincibility. They grant the ability to destroy things with relative ease, though. I think even Bowser can be defeated by these, so that's impressive. Lucky Bell gives a Tanooki-like ability. The Tanooki suit allows Mario to transform into a statue. I think the idea of becoming stone gives the impression of invulnerability, due to the hardness of the stone. In this case, Rosalina would turn to a gold statue. It would appear that she would be vulnerable to being crushed or from extreme heat.

Agreed on Mega Mushrooms, characters aren't invincible as much as they are ridiculously large while facing a bunch of tiny enemies/obstacles.

And disagree on, gold statue, I'm sure Thwomp can not crush you in statue form, nor can fire enemies hurt you. But I'd need to go back and look.

Well, if Palutena lacks light- and sound-based attacks, then the barrier should help. I'm curious as to how much force it can receive.

Palutena does have light based attacks.

FYI I was the one who said Composite Link beats Samus.

 

[Crystanium]

@ ShadowLBlue
Well, prepare for why composite Link loses when I finish my argument.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Don't know how to tag. ShadowLBlue and Dryn, these are to you.

get vehicles.
can become iron, generate electricity, and do an attack like a ground pound. He's defeated large robots before.
These are the Mii Fighters. Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, and Mii Swordfighter.
I think the Franklin Badge only reflects electricity.
Sure, five minutes.
can turn people into stone, use his side special, breathe homing fireballs, shrink his opponents using Sonic Roar!, and create different types of graffiti, including some for teleportation.

 

[Munomario777]

Palutena, you mean. Hehe. Well, the issue is lack of convection. Mario and Donkey Kong games ignore convection, so as long as you're not touching lava, you're not going to be harmed. This seems to be present in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword as well, considering there isn't a Goron tunic in either game, though the latter does provide some sort of heat protection for certain locations. Convection was clearly in Ocarina of Time.

It makes me think of Amaterasu from Naruto. (I don't watch the anime or read the manga. I just know this from what I've read at another message board where I debate.) Amaterasu burns as hot as the Sun (Second Databook, p. 200), but in order to get burned by it, one has to come into direct contact with it. So we could treat the stars similar to Amaterasu, since those who come into direct contact are harmed.

Oh, yeah. Palutena. I think treating the stars like that sounds good.

Well, I wouldn't say mega mushrooms grant invincibility. They grant the ability to destroy things with relative ease, though. I think even Bowser can be defeated by these, so that's impressive. Lucky Bell gives a Tanooki-like ability. The Tanooki suit allows Mario to transform into a statue. I think the idea of becoming stone gives the impression of invulnerability, due to the hardness of the stone. In this case, Rosalina would turn to a gold statue. It would appear that she would be vulnerable to being crushed or from extreme heat.

Gold has a hardness of 2.5 to 3 on Mohs scale of hardness. It has a melting point of 1,064.18°C (1,947.52°F). So it make sense that even as a gold statue, Thwomp and Charvaargh can harm her or any other Mario character in that form. It also appears to be a temporary form of invincibility, which honestly isn't as good as the super star, which allows one to be invincible and mobile.

Well, the Mega Mushrooms do protect the user from most attacks, including fireballs, hammers, and magic attacks IIRC. What makes you say that the Lucky Bell would be vulnerable to being crushed or to extreme heat? I believe any Thwomps that attempt to crush it are destroyed, and it's also immune to fire attacks. Gameplay > real-world science. The Super Star would be ideal, but the Lucky Bell can be used multiple times, without a real limit, while Rosalina only has one Starman. It's more of a backup invincibility form for when the Super Star runs out than something that would be used at the beginning of the stage.

Black holes and stars could be useful if they behave like ours, but chances are, they don't. The suction quality of these black holes could possibly be utilized, but I'm not sure how powerful the suction is, so it's curious if one can run away from it. The stars might behave like Amaterasu from Naruto. They can be useful if they hit Palutena. I'm not sure how fast they're launched, though.

Well, black holes in Galaxy are, you know, black, so they're sucking in light by the looks of it. Many black holes in the Galaxy games also pull things in from a long distance for a one-hit-kill before Mario even makes contact with the event horizon, which seems to mean that this pull is inescapable.

Well, if Palutena lacks light- and sound-based attacks, then the barrier should help. I'm curious as to how much force it can receive.

Well, being the Goddess of Light, Palutena does have some light-based attacks (as well as the Mega Laser, which being a laser, would pierce the shield), but the Super Star or other invincibility items would take care of those. As for the strength of the shield, it can block Mario's Ground Pound, which can crush through multiple layers of solid stone, so it must be pretty durable.

@ ShadowLBlue
Well, prepare for why composite Link loses when I finish my argument.

I'd say it's pretty close. On one hand, Link's Chateau Romani + TWW Magic Armor does give him three days of invincibility. On the other hand, if Samus is fast enough, she could break the bottle before Link finishes drinking it. I can't wait for the analysis!

@ Kirby Dragons just type "@" directly followed by the username you want to tag, and they'll automatically be tagged.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Munomario777 Alright, thanks.

By the way, when we're finished with this tournament, will we make one for mid-tier characters?

 

[Crystanium]

By the way, when we're finished with this tournament, will we make one for mid-tier characters?

I honestly think not much thought is not being presented for everyone. If we all come to an agreement on who is supposed to actually face who, then we can progress. This is why I posted my version of the match-up.

Still working on Samus versus composite Link.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Kirby Dragons
No problem! I don't have any plans to do another bracket after this one, but I won't be one to stop someone else from making one.

 

[Nerdicon]

Anyway I agree that we're going to have vote eventually, but that should only come if we don't find one argument superior to the other. Or if we've been arguing and the majority agrees one argument is better and the minority can't find compelling evidence for his case (i.e. how we did with all of us vs Drynn about Ganondorf..

Only @ Munomario777 agrees with himself to my knowledge. Unless you agree with him. If not I rest my case.

 

[Munomario777]

Only @ Munomario777 agrees with himself to my knowledge. Unless you agree with him. If not I rest my case.

And everyone else is undecided to my knowledge.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Don't know how to tag. ShadowLBlue and Dryn, these are to you.

get vehicles.
can become iron, generate electricity, and do an attack like a ground pound. He's defeated large robots before.
These are the Mii Fighters. Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, and Mii Swordfighter.
I think the Franklin Badge only reflects electricity.
Sure, five minutes.
can turn people into stone, use his side special, breathe homing fireballs, shrink his opponents using Sonic Roar!, and create different types of graffiti, including some for teleportation.

Well in that case, his match-up with Pit depends on if you (in general) believe Pit's weapons can break through his vehicle's armor.

Ditto for Fox vs Lucario.
In that Case Robin would win but I wouldn't agree with Drynn and call it unfair.
Well Now I need to look up Yoshi's skills. Off top of my head sounds like Pac-man though, albeit going off limited knowledge.
Given his magic armor and 250k wallet, seems like he might be the king of the mid-tier. Given that, Not sure why he's in mid-tier actually.

I'd say it's pretty close. On one hand, Link's Chateau Romani + TWW Magic Armor does give him three days of invincibility. On the other hand, if Samus is fast enough, she could break the bottle before Link finishes drinking it. I can't wait for the analysis!

I think he sounds pretty biased towards Samus, but I'll wait and see how he gets around Magic Armor -> Link turns around and drinks chateau Romani -> switches from Magic Armor to Magic Cape -> 3 day invincibility.

@ Kirby Dragons @ Munomario777
Also I don't think we need to over analyze match-ups for the mid-tier characters. Eventually they're going to have to face each other if they progress enough. We should just make sure to avoid putting any people in obviously bad match-ups for the first round., like Little Mac vs either star Fox character.

Also no one responded to my questions about:

• Mewtwo getting memory erasing skills
• How long it takes Rosalina's Lumas to transform
• How much damage they can take before going poof

Might have got lost in wall of text.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think would beat .

 

[Munomario777]

I think he sounds pretty biased towards Samus, but I'll wait and see how he gets around Magic Armor -> Link turns around and drinks chateau Romani -> switches from Magic Armor to Magic Cape -> 3 day invincibility.

I see a few options for Samus. She could use the weak point visor to aim a shot at the bottle, and even if Link did drink it in time, she does have a few methods she could possibly use to stall it out, such as running around at Mach 1 via the Speed Booster to avoid Link's attacks.

@ Kirby Dragons @ Munomario777
Also I don't think we need to over analyze match-ups for the mid-tier characters. Eventually they're going to have to face each other if they progress enough. We should just make sure to avoid putting any people in obviously bad match-ups for the first round., like Little Mac vs either star Fox character.

Oh, I'm not really interested in doing a bracket for the mid-tier characters honestly.

Also no one responded to my questions about:

• Mewtwo getting memory erasing skills
• How long it takes Rosalina's Lumas to transform
• How much damage they can take before going poof

Might have got lost in wall of text.

As I pointed out earlier, it only takes a couple of seconds to transform a Luma into an entire galaxy with multiple black holes, planets, and such, so one measly black hole would be very quick (especially since Lumas can fire their own Star Bit streams to speed up the process, as demonstrated by Galaxy 2's Co-Star Lumas). As for their durability, we don't see any Lumas dying in Galaxy AFAIK, but they do seem a bit weak in their normal forms. However, when Lumas die, they turn into stars, so it would only make matters worse for Palutena really.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue Are you referring to Amnesia? I guess he'd be able to wipe minds with it, but it would also give the opponent a boost.

I think would beat .

Agreed. Ness has similar healing skills, Franklin Badge to reflect Thoron, and galactic attacks.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Not only that, but Ness his healing abilities are much more reliable than Robin's. Robin's damage output could be dangerously close to Ness's, but Ness is able to block a lot of damage with PSI Shield beta, Franklin Badge will take care of lightning based attacks, and PK Rockin' will probably do more damage to Robin than anything Robin could unleash on Ness. Outside of criticals with insanely powerful legendary weapons and skill activation, but the problem is that those are situational. And that Ness is extremely durable, and can cast PSI Shield which Robin really has no answer for.