Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Difference being that this isn't a balance tweak like in 3D World, it's a move that the ability can use. If the developers wanted the attack to function more realistically they would have, but the point of the maneuver is to grant Kirby invincibility.

How is the 3D World instance more of a "balance tweak" than this?

For one, 8 inches is probably a little larger than you think. Mario isn't quite big enough to just step on Kirby, Kirby can get assaulted by large boulders and still block them in Triple Deluxe. As for the archer guard, I tested with large bosses that have attacks that crush Kirby flat and Kirby was not harmed. In Flowery Woods' case he was pushed out of the way of the collision box of Flowery Woods' body. He still gets crushed by auto-scrolling stages, but even you said that was a game mechanic. As for sliding off, if Kirby doesn't instantly fly off the Warp Star normally then whatever he uses won't either. By that logic if Sword Kirby rode the Warp Star he'd lose his ability because the speed would cause him to drop the sword.

True, but some larger characters or larger attacks would still get through. Attacks such as Bowser stomping on Kirby, many characters putting their whole body on him (such as with a belly flop), and such come to mind. The Flowery Woods crushing not harming a blocking Kirby falls under the same category as him not getting harmed by attacks from above; that is, it's purely a gameplay mechanic.

Difference here is that we have in-game evidence that suggests otherwise. In Rosalina's case this statement is used because there's no evidence that suggests otherwise, but in this example EM wave attacks are reflected back anyway.

Really? Which attacks, out of curiosity?

What's said by those within that universe cannot make claims outside that universe.

And using that as evidence that other weapons can harm Ganondorf is argument from ignorance. If the claims in Zelda have no weight outside of that universe (which I still don't believe, by the way), then there is no evidence to Ganondorf being mostly invulnerable. You're taking this lack of evidence as evidence to the contrary; the definition of argument from ignorance.

And I hope we're being logical.

As do I.

I don't subscribe to your hierarchy.

The lore > gameplay > etc. hierarchy of evidence is the widely accepted standard here, and has been used for quite a while (and you agreed to it IIRC). If you'd like to use a different order, then that's an entirely different discussion.

The game has only demonstrated what Ganondorf is not affected by. These are small samples. Once again, ipse dixitism, an argument from ignorance, and hast generalization is being committed by you.

Except for the proof in the lore saying that the effective weapons against Ganondorf are the Master Sword and the Light Arrows.

A soldier wearing powered armor decides he wants to take over the land. His name is heard throughout the land for his infamous ways. Armies are sent by the king to stop him, but the armies are brought to their knees within a short amount of time. Arrows, pikes, spears, daggers, axes, and swords fail to work against this soldier. Then a small group of people create a device to shut down the soldier's powered armor, one that generates an electromagnetic pulse. The soldier is hit by the EMP and defeated. Thus, this small group tells the people that the EMP is the only way to stop the soldier.

Sound familiar?

Not really. If it was the universe itself telling the people that only EMP can stop the soldier, then yeah, I could relate.

But I'm assuming for now that Ganondorf can only be harmed by light and holy attacks.

Technically, the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf, rather than actually dealing damage.

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Samus has destroyed many planets and commited near mass extermination of one of the galaxy's most deadly races.

Kirby effortlessly took out an entire army while making his way through the halberd.

 

[Nerdicon]

• How is the 3D World instance more of a "balance tweak" than this?

Because this was programmed into the game as a power of the ability, not to maintain balance. It's even in the move listing of Archer. It's clearly there as a different move. The collision detection of 3D World was only there to balance the game and not as an inherent ability of the characters, like invincibility frames.

True, but some larger characters or larger attacks would still get through. Attacks such as Bowser stomping on Kirby, many characters putting their whole body on him (such as with a belly flop), and such come to mind. The Flowery Woods crushing not harming a blocking Kirby falls under the same category as him not getting harmed by attacks from above; that is, it's purely a gameplay mechanic.

Source? I tested the Archer camouflage and the normal guard and when flowery woods tries to crush the normal guard, it still did full damage. This is clearly an example of getting crushed vs. being hit from above.

Really? Which attacks, out of curiosity?

Off the top of my head there's

• Laser Ball's Laser
• Dyna Blade's FIre Breath
• Wham Bam Jewel's Laser Finger
• Galacta Knight's Beam
• Walky's Music Notes

Just to name a few.

 

[Crystanium]

And using that as evidence that other weapons can harm Ganondorf is argument from ignorance. If the claims in Zelda have no weight outside of that universe (which I still don't believe, by the way), then there is no evidence to Ganondorf being mostly invulnerable. You're taking this lack of evidence as evidence to the contrary; the definition of argument from ignorance.

As do I.

The lore > gameplay > etc. hierarchy of evidence is the widely accepted standard here, and has been used for quite a while (and you agreed to it IIRC). If you'd like to use a different order, then that's an entirely different discussion.

I have only agreed to working with what is consistent.

Except for the proof in the lore saying that the effective weapons against Ganondorf are the Master Sword and the Light Arrows.

I'm perfectly fine with it saying that the master sword and light arrows are effective. Effective simply means it's the best way. It doesn't mean it's the only way. Please understand that I think Ganondorf is a very powerful character. I think he's a very difficult character to defeat in fictional battles, but I do not think that he has only one weakness

Not really. If it was the universe itself telling the people that only EMP can stop the soldier, then yeah, I could relate.

When did the universe tell the people of Hyrule that the only way to defeat Ganondorf was by using a blade of evil's bane? The Japanese ALttP manual says that the people of Hyrule were informed by an oracle to make a sword capable of driving back evil. This sword is the master sword. Interestingly enough, the oracle never said it was the only way.

Technically, the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf, rather than actually dealing damage.

Both possess sacred qualities. It's the sacredness that makes it possible to drive back Ganondorf. I see light arrows as merely stunning Ganondorf to be an interpretation. I thought this was worth noting. Something is sacred if it is intended for the service of gods, meaning one could actually make a sacred, evil weapon, as long as it's intended to serve a god or gods.

Edit: Honestly, I prefer the Japanese versions.

"By the way, kid, when you pulled that sword from its pedestal, the unmoving monsters all began to move at once, didn’t they? Do you understand what that means? That sword is the Anti-Demon Sword that repels demons. However, it is also the annoying seal that was sealing my Mazoku. You broke that seal. It’s useless! You still haven’t realised it! You cannot defeat me with a sword that lacks the radiance to repel demons!"

Way better than, "a blade that lacks the power to sparkle". Ganondorf, you bad***!

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Source please?

Sure.

Ice Kirby's guard looks like it covers his whole body, and ice is slippery, so it would slide. If you look just before that point in the video, you can see Kirby skating, and ice does appear underneath his feet when he skates; he seems to be a bit slippery as a result.
Actually, Mirror Kirby's guard seems like it would obstruct his view quite a bit, especially when it comes to piloting a Warp Star at hundreds of miles per hour.
While the Warp Star may be thought controlled, it still wouldn't solve the problem of Kirby being able to manage all of that speed.

That was my point, he makes the ice go to his feet so that way he can go faster. Notice how running Ice Kirby go faster but he turns it off when walks. Also notice how his crown glows when he runs. It's because it's generating ice. I think that shows he can control exactly how and where the ice goes on his body.
As for the Warp star,
Yes, that's a typo. It was meant to be around the size of Earth, but it was accidentally made much larger because of a typo. Pointing something out as a typo is a way for the opposition to disprove a statement made in lore.

Actually, I saw examples of the character shrugging off blows and saw the lore state that the character can only be harmed by select weapons, and then took the lore as true. Due to the hierarchy of discussion (game creators > lore > gameplay etc.), lore must be treated as true until proven false. It's the opposition's job to do said proving of falsity.[/quote]

Except, said character has never demonstrated an upper limit, and so it is an assumption that said character can only be harmed by select weapons. By that logic, werewolves can only be killed by silver bullets. If I went in the past with powered armor, I would be considered invincible, unstoppable, and nothing could kill me. People could make claims about me. I would be known for bringing armies to their knees. I would be considered a god, if not outright the god of the people. I don't accept claims. I accept feats.

Like I said before, it makes no sense to try and guess exactly everything that would NOT fit into the upper limit. Theoretically you could be right that Ganon could be killed by the Wave Beam or anti-matter beam since there's no equivalent in his universe, but that involves a whole lot more speculating than going with assumption that he's simply unable to be killed by any non-holy attack. Lore has consistently said weapons that can't repel evil can not kill Ganon. Unless you can show solid evidence of why lore is wrong or an exception should be made (like how we agreed Super Sonic has no basis for being invulnerable to mental attacks), lore > unknown possibilities that are just speculation.

 

[Crystanium]

Like I said before, it makes no sense to try and guess exactly everything that would NOT fit into the upper limit. Theoretically you could be right that Ganon could be killed by the Wave Beam or anti-matter beam since there's no equivalent in his universe, but that involves a whole lot more speculating than going with assumption that he's simply unable to be killed by any non-holy attack. Lore has consistently said weapons that can't repel evil can not kill Ganon. Unless you can show solid evidence of why lore is wrong or an exception should be made (like how we agreed Super Sonic has no basis for being invulnerable to mental attacks), lore > unknown possibilities that are just speculation.

"In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence." - Copi , Introduction to Logic (1953), p. 95

 

[Nerdicon]

Because I admit defeat on vs I'll do redo another match-up in light of recent events.
vs
FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!
Attacker: Rosalina

's attack: Star Spin
A melee attack that hits all around Rosalina. Her Lumas can attack too.
's counter: You're too slow!
Kirby on the warp star can move at lightspeed or faster, there's no way Rosalina's going to catch Kirby any time soon.

's attack: Star Bits
Little star projectiles that the Lumas can fire as well creating a large volley of star bits
's counter: Mirror Kirby
The star bits would cover the entire battlefield if a large enough group of Lumas were shooting, so Kirby can change into Mirror Kirby to reflect the projectiles away

's attack: Fire Flower
BURN! BURN TO THE GROUND!
's counter: Mirror Kirby
Again Mirror Kirby reflects projectiles, not to mention the warp star could probably dodge the fireballs

's attack: Boomerang Suit
There and back again. The boomerangs are rather brittle and can be destroyed by most attacks.
's counter: Mirror/Warp Star
Mirror could reflect the boomerangs back, but the warp star could probably power through the boomerangs due to their fragile nature.

's attack: Mega Mushroom
Makes Rosalina giant and nigh invincible
's counter: Warp Star
3fast5u

's attack: Luma Transformation
There are several things the Lumas could turn into like Black Holes and stars and such by filling them up with star bits
's counter: Well we have a little list here...
If Rosalina generates a star she has to make it so she doesn't burn herself, giving the area some safe havens. By using Hypernova to absorb the plasma as he moves forward he can charge directly through the star with no problems.
If Rosalina makes a planet to damage Kirby with the resulting explosion, he could just block
If Rosalina uses black holes, Kirby will be able to weave his way through the ergosphere to avoid getting sucked in. Heck, he might be able to just use Hypernova to swallow the singularity!

Yep this seems one sided

Attacker: Kirby

's attack: Hammah Time
The Hammer ability gives Kirby a powerful melee attack option that becomes a force to be reckoned with when combined with the warp star
's counter: Invincibility Star
There's no way Rosalina is going to react to Kirby on the warp star so the forcefield is out of the picture, using an invincibility star is her best bet

's attack: Laser Kirby/ Kabuki Kirby
Laser Kirby can fire small beams or a larger beam, while Kabuki Kirby creates a solid beam of death
's counter: N/A
Kabuki Kirby's beams go through multiple enemies and her shield

's attack: Baton Kirby
Kirby shoots a beam from his baton to gain telekinetic control over the target
's counter: N/A
Kirby is moving at speeds that Rosalina can't counter

's Finisher: Baton Toss
Blows the opponent up. Dead.

Summary
While Rosalina is certainly powerful, she's not very versatile or fast. Kirby's superior speed and arsenal give him a definite edge in this match
Winner: Kirby

He's coming for you next...

 

[Crystanium]

So, since Kirby is using the warp star, does this mean other characters are allowed to use their ships?

 

[Nerdicon]

So, since Kirby is using the warp star, does this mean other characters are allowed to use their ships?

Like Fox and the Arwing? Of course! These are after all extensions of the character. The line is drawn however when the vehicle is something they find or know someone has, but is not necessarily theirs (The Tornado from Sonic, The Air Ride machines) or something that they really shouldn't have immediate access to due to size or other reasons (Halberd, Comet observatory)

 

[Crystanium]

Like Fox and the Arwing? Of course! These are after all extensions of the character. The line is drawn however when the vehicle is something they find or know someone has, but is not necessarily theirs (The Tornado from Sonic, The Air Ride machines) or something that they really shouldn't have immediate access to due to size or other reasons (Halberd, Comet observatory)

Well, I was just wondering because Samus has the gunship, which she has used to travel from planet to planet, or location to location while on a particular planet. Samus has used it to destroy walls, shield devices, and even enemies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67cbbTDT0YE&t=165s

 

[Munomario777]

Because this was programmed into the game as a power of the ability, not to maintain balance. It's even in the move listing of Archer. It's clearly there as a different move. The collision detection of 3D World was only there to balance the game and not as an inherent ability of the characters, like invincibility frames.

Balancing (making multiple characters or other elements of a game more equal) is only an issue when there are multiple things to balance. In 3D World, what does the item collision detection thing balance the playable cast against exactly? They all share this attribute, so it's not balancing them against each other. The enemies don't have power-ups in the first place, so there wasn't really any intent of balancing the enemies with the playable characters. Instead, it's to make it easier to share power- ups when, for instance, the characters are moving forward; if there was collision detection at that point, the character giving the item would often grab the item right away and couldn't share it as a result.

On the other hand, there is some balancing to be done with the Archer ability. All Copy Abilities must be balanced because, other than making each choice equally as attractive to players to use in the campaign, there's also the versus mode where each player chooses a different Copy Ability and they all fight. If the Archer's block didn't, well, block attacks, it would be unfair to whoever was using that ability, so they made it block attacks for gameplay purposes.

Source? I tested the Archer camouflage and the normal guard and when flowery woods tries to crush the normal guard, it still did full damage. This is clearly an example of getting crushed vs. being hit from above.

See above.

Off the top of my head there's

• Laser Ball's Laser
• Dyna Blade's FIre Breath
• Wham Bam Jewel's Laser Finger
• Galacta Knight's Beam
• Walky's Music Notes

Just to name a few.

Ah.

I have only agreed to working with what is consistent.

If you have a more consistent system to use, feel free to post it.

I'm perfectly fine with it saying that the master sword and light arrows are effective. Effective simply means it's the best way. It doesn't mean it's the only way. Please understand that I think Ganondorf is a very powerful character. I think he's a very difficult character to defeat in fictional battles, but I do not think that he has only one weakness

No, effective means successful in producing a desired or intended result.

When did the universe tell the people of Hyrule that the only way to defeat Ganondorf was by using a blade of evil's bane? The Japanese ALttP manual says that the people of Hyrule were informed by an oracle to make a sword capable of driving back evil. This sword is the master sword. Interestingly enough, the oracle never said it was the only way.

When the bio for Ganondorf in Wind Waker listed Ganondorf's effective weapons as the Master Sword and the Light Arrows.

Both possess sacred qualities. It's the sacredness that makes it possible to drive back Ganondorf. I see light arrows as merely stunning Ganondorf to be an interpretation. I thought this was worth noting. Something is sacred if it is intended for the service of gods, meaning one could actually make a sacred, evil weapon, as long as it's intended to serve a god or gods.

I agree that we should count sacred weapons as the same league as the Master Sword (in that they are effective against Ganondorf), but we should also take into account what they actually do, such as how the Light Arrows serve to open up Ganondorf so he can be hit with the Master Sword.

Edit: Honestly, I prefer the Japanese versions.

"By the way, kid, when you pulled that sword from its pedestal, the unmoving monsters all began to move at once, didn’t they? Do you understand what that means? That sword is the Anti-Demon Sword that repels demons. However, it is also the annoying seal that was sealing my Mazoku. You broke that seal. It’s useless! You still haven’t realised it! You cannot defeat me with a sword that lacks the radiance to repel demons!"

Way better than, "a blade that lacks the power to sparkle". Ganondorf, you bad***!

Haha.

"In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence." - Copi , Introduction to Logic (1953), p. 95

That seems like an argument from ignorance to me, but I'm guessing this is an exception to that rule under certain circumstances. In that case, then we could take the absence of proof of other weapons harming as Ganondorf as positive proof of other weapons not harming Ganondorf, no?

Because I admit defeat on vs I'll do redo another match-up in light of recent events.
vs
FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!
Attacker: Rosalina

's attack: Star Spin
A melee attack that hits all around Rosalina. Her Lumas can attack too.
's counter: You're too slow!
Kirby on the warp star can move at lightspeed or faster, there's no way Rosalina's going to catch Kirby any time soon.

Where did you get light speed from? Gameplay > Smash as it currently stands. The Warp Star takes a bit to get up to speed in Kirby, and it hasn't been shown that he could control that speed or make it effective here for anything but getting from point a to point b. He couldn't aim attacks properly, maneuver around small areas, or things that would make it useful for combat. By the way, didn't you say that the Warp Star takes a minute to call in via the cellphone?

's attack: Star Bits
Little star projectiles that the Lumas can fire as well creating a large volley of star bits
's counter: Mirror Kirby
The star bits would cover the entire battlefield if a large enough group of Lumas were shooting, so Kirby can change into Mirror Kirby to reflect the projectiles away

Agreed.

's attack: Fire Flower
BURN! BURN TO THE GROUND!
's counter: Mirror Kirby
Again Mirror Kirby reflects projectiles, not to mention the warp star could probably dodge the fireballs

Agreed for the Mirror ability.

's attack: Boomerang Suit
There and back again. The boomerangs are rather brittle and can be destroyed by most attacks.
's counter: Mirror/Warp Star
Mirror could reflect the boomerangs back, but the warp star could probably power through the boomerangs due to their fragile nature.

Agreed.

's attack: Mega Mushroom
Makes Rosalina giant and nigh invincible
's counter: Warp Star
3fast5u

2f45t2c0ntrol

's attack: Luma Transformation
There are several things the Lumas could turn into like Black Holes and stars and such by filling them up with star bits
's counter: Well we have a little list here...
If Rosalina generates a star she has to make it so she doesn't burn herself, giving the area some safe havens. By using Hypernova to absorb the plasma as he moves forward he can charge directly through the star with no problems.
If Rosalina makes a planet to damage Kirby with the resulting explosion, he could just block
If Rosalina uses black holes, Kirby will be able to weave his way through the ergosphere to avoid getting sucked in. Heck, he might be able to just use Hypernova to swallow the singularity!

With proper spacing, she could be on one side of the arena in a safe spot and create a star where Kirby is, on the other side. She could also just force him inside via forcefield TK.
And she could make a star/black hole while he's stuck in place.
If Rosalina created a black hole right next to Kirby, he would get sucked in instantly. If he tried to inhale it, the black hole would just get closer and suck him in.

Yep this seems one sided

I agree.
[/quote]Attacker: Kirby

's attack: Hammah Time
The Hammer ability gives Kirby a powerful melee attack option that becomes a force to be reckoned with when combined with the warp star
's counter: Invincibility Star
There's no way Rosalina is going to react to Kirby on the warp star so the forcefield is out of the picture, using an invincibility star is her best bet[/quote]
Agreed.

's attack: Laser Kirby/ Kabuki Kirby
Laser Kirby can fire small beams or a larger beam, while Kabuki Kirby creates a solid beam of death
's counter: N/A
Kabuki Kirby's beams go through multiple enemies and her shield

Didn't she just equip the Starman though?

's attack: Baton Kirby
Kirby shoots a beam from his baton to gain telekinetic control over the target
's counter: N/A
Kirby is moving at speeds that Rosalina can't counter

Again, invincibility via the Starman.

's Finisher: Baton Toss
Blows the opponent up. Dead.

Yet again, invincibility via Starman.

Summary

While Rosalina is certainly powerful, she's not very versatile or fast. Kirby's superior speed and arsenal give him a definite edge in this match
Winner: Kirby

He's coming for you next...

I dunno, black holes seem pretty versatile when it comes to killing people.

Like Fox and the Arwing? Of course! These are after all extensions of the character. The line is drawn however when the vehicle is something they find or know someone has, but is not necessarily theirs (The Tornado from Sonic, The Air Ride machines) or something that they really shouldn't have immediate access to due to size or other reasons (Halberd, Comet observatory)

I agree, but contrary to popular belief, the Tornado is actually owned by Sonic; it's just associated with Tails so often since he soups it up and pilots it.

 

[Crystanium]

If you have a more consistent system to use, feel free to post it.

My method is that we treat cut-scenes, textual evidence, visual evidence, game play, and whatever else all on an equal footing. If there is a contradiction within any of these, we need to evaluate the evidence and come up with what makes the most sense. I can understand that physics may be disregarded here and there, but I think we all go to a certain degree where our suspension of disbelief permits it. Logic, on the other hand, seems rather a bit more discriminatory.

In order to be logical, you have to use sentences. These can be true or false. The statement, "Ganondorf is invulnerable all attacks except the power that repels evil" is a sentence. One could create a logical argument known as a hypothetical syllogism that works against this. Here's an example.

• If Ganondorf is human, then he is mortal.
• If he is mortal, then he is vulnerable to knives.
• Therefore, if Ganondorf is human, then he's vulnerable to knives.

This is logically valid, but not sound. The objection here would not be that Ganondorf is human, but that he's mortal. (Ganondorf is a human according to Hyrule Historia. In fact, he's mortal up until Din's blessing.) The moment you say that Ganondorf is immortal, you are making a proposition that may be true or false. It can look like this.

• If Ganondorf has been blessed by Din, then he is immortal.
• If he is immortal, then he is invulnerable to knives.
• Therefore, if Ganondorf is immortal, he is invulnerable to knives.

What's worth noting here is that not only is this logically valid, it's also logically sound. The reason we can say this is because in The Wind Waker, Tetra's dagger doesn't harm Ganondorf. Let's assume Link's arrows harmed Ganondorf, though. How do we resolve this contradiction? Well, if they're ordinary arrows, we might ascribe this to hit points. To offer an example outside of WW, we could say that in Superman games, Superman takes damage from bullets, but we know he actually wouldn't, unless they were Kryptonite bullets or magic bullets.

Anyway, the only way arrows would harm Ganondorf is if they were silver arrows. This would explain why Tetra's dagger didn't harm Ganondorf, but Link's arrows did.

No, effective means successful in producing a desired or intended result.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I hope you'll be pleased to see that "best" means "of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality", according to the OED. So the master sword and light arrows would be the best means by which Ganondorf can be defeated.

When the bio for Ganondorf in Wind Waker listed Ganondorf's effective weapons as the Master Sword and the Light Arrows.

I'm not even contending with this. I'm perfectly fine with descriptions like this because they're not coming from an individual in the game. All I'm saying is that what silver bullets are to werewolves, the master sword and light arrows are to Ganondorf. I don't even think werewolves are invulnerable to all but silver. I just think silver is the most effective method at killing them.

It is my interpretation that Ganondorf have a form-fitting barrier, which I dubbed "dark defense". (I like alliterations.) This barrier can tolerate a lot of damage, but it is not extended to infinity. This is where it's illogical. Let me put it this way. You can stop a train by firing a continuous barrage of bullets. Is it the most effective way of stopping a train? Not even close, but the train would be stopped by the bullets if it continued.

I agree that we should count sacred weapons as the same league as the Master Sword (in that they are effective against Ganondorf), but we should also take into account what they actually do, such as how the Light Arrows serve to open up Ganondorf so he can be hit with the Master Sword.

I'm fine with that. My understanding is that because the light arrows are sacred, they could potentially kill Ganondorf, but they're not going to in a single hit like the master sword can. The master sword was specifically intended to drive back demons, and Ganondorf is the king of the demon tribe. (Yes, that's what the Japanese text would say. That's way better in my opinion.)

Ganondorf himself is a demon, so I can understand that yes, perhaps conventional weapons wouldn't harm him, but I feel that the weapons Samus possesses aren't conventional weapons because they are directed-energy weapons and a weapon of mass destruction. (Aside from the power bomb, the omega cannon is also a weapon of mass destruction.) I don't think Ganondorf would be killed by bullets, but something more powerful, I think would kill him.

That seems like an argument from ignorance to me, but I'm guessing this is an exception to that rule under certain circumstances. In that case, then we could take the absence of proof of other weapons harming as Ganondorf as positive proof of other weapons not harming Ganondorf, no?

Not all things that are considered "fallacious" are actually fallacious. I learned this from my book on informal logic by Douglas Walton. Actually, a lot of "fallacies" shouldn't readily be called such. It does depend on the context. For example, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a loaded question if you're a bachelor, or if you never beat your wife. However, it is a perfectly valid question to ask if the one who is being accused has actually done so.

Let me put it another way. Say you picked up a firearm. You don't know if it's loaded or not, but you treat it as such. It's an argument from ignorance, but you presume it is loaded anyway. This is perfectly valid. Or the accused is on trial for murder. The accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser, though this is an argument from ignorance. When I encounter proponents of Ganondorf, I'm always told, "He can only die by holy/light attacks." That's an assertion, and assertions must be proved.

I am perfectly fine with accepting the master sword and light arrows being the most effective means to killing Ganondorf, but I have no reason to think he's going to survive weapons that Samus possesses. "The burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies."

 

[Munomario777]

My method is that we treat cut-scenes, textual evidence, visual evidence, game play, and whatever else all on an equal footing. If there is a contradiction within any of these, we need to evaluate the evidence and come up with what makes the most sense. I can understand that physics may be disregarded here and there, but I think we all go to a certain degree where our suspension of disbelief permits it. Logic, on the other hand, seems rather a bit more discriminatory.

I do like that idea, but there are some sources that should be considered less reliable than others. For example, other forms of media (such as, say, Sonic the Comic) and Smash Brothers should be regarded as lower than the games because the games are the main series. In addition, there are some things that are stated in lore that are altered in gameplay due to gameplay reasons (such as for balance/making the game easier/harder) or for technical reasons (most often high speeds) that should be taken into account. I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

In order to be logical, you have to use sentences. These can be true or false. The statement, "Ganondorf is invulnerable all attacks except the power that repels evil" is a sentence. One could create a logical argument known as a hypothetical syllogism that works against this. Here's an example.

• If Ganondorf is human, then he is mortal.
• If he is mortal, then he is vulnerable to knives.
• Therefore, if Ganondorf is human, then he's vulnerable to knives.

This is logically valid, but not sound. The objection here would not be that Ganondorf is human, but that he's mortal. (Ganondorf is a human according to Hyrule Historia. In fact, he's mortal up until Din's blessing.) The moment you say that Ganondorf is immortal, you are making a proposition that may be true or false. It can look like this.

• If Ganondorf has been blessed by Din, then he is immortal.
• If he is immortal, then he is invulnerable to knives.
• Therefore, if Ganondorf is immortal, he is invulnerable to knives.

What's worth noting here is that not only is this logically valid, it's also logically sound. The reason we can say this is because in The Wind Waker, Tetra's dagger doesn't harm Ganondorf. Let's assume Link's arrows harmed Ganondorf, though. How do we resolve this contradiction? Well, if they're ordinary arrows, we might ascribe this to hit points. To offer an example outside of WW, we could say that in Superman games, Superman takes damage from bullets, but we know he actually wouldn't, unless they were Kryptonite bullets or magic bullets.

Anyway, the only way arrows would harm Ganondorf is if they were silver arrows. This would explain why Tetra's dagger didn't harm Ganondorf, but Link's arrows did.

Yes, or light arrows.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I hope you'll be pleased to see that "best" means "of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality", according to the OED. So the master sword and light arrows would be the best means by which Ganondorf can be defeated.

Yes, "best" means "most effective", but "effective" doesn't mean "best"; it just means that it works at all. "Most effective" means "best", but that's purely due to the "most" at the beginning.

I'm not even contending with this. I'm perfectly fine with descriptions like this because they're not coming from an individual in the game. All I'm saying is that what silver bullets are to werewolves, the master sword and light arrows are to Ganondorf. I don't even think werewolves are invulnerable to all but silver. I just think silver is the most effective method at killing them.

Well, using the definition of "effective" as "being successful in achieving a goal", then the entry in Ganondorf's bio implies that only the Master Sword and Light Arrows (and similar weapons) can be used against Ganondorf effectively.

It is my interpretation that Ganondorf have a form-fitting barrier, which I dubbed "dark defense". (I like alliterations.) This barrier can tolerate a lot of damage, but it is not extended to infinity. This is where it's illogical. Let me put it this way. You can stop a train by firing a continuous barrage of bullets. Is it the most effective way of stopping a train? Not even close, but the train would be stopped by the bullets if it continued.

While that's an interesting theory, until we find evidence to it in the games, we shouldn't use it in this discussion, since it's mostly speculation. There are so many characters with invincibility (or near-invincibility, but with a specific weakness) in this discussion that invincibility to most attacks being "illogical" isn't really an issue (and if it was, then many, many matchups would have to be drastically altered).

I'm fine with that. My understanding is that because the light arrows are sacred, they could potentially kill Ganondorf, but they're not going to in a single hit like the master sword can. The master sword was specifically intended to drive back demons, and Ganondorf is the king of the demon tribe. (Yes, that's what the Japanese text would say. That's way better in my opinion.)

I'm pretty sure that if you tried firing Light Arrows at Ganondorf continuously in the final boss battle, they wouldn't kill them. Also, the Master Sword takes a few hits to kill Ganondorf IIRC, rather than being a one hit kill.

Ganondorf himself is a demon, so I can understand that yes, perhaps conventional weapons wouldn't harm him, but I feel that the weapons Samus possesses aren't conventional weapons because they are directed-energy weapons and a weapon of mass destruction. (Aside from the power bomb, the omega cannon is also a weapon of mass destruction.) I don't think Ganondorf would be killed by bullets, but something more powerful, I think would kill him.

Well, the lore says otherwise, so I disagree.

Not all things that are considered "fallacious" are actually fallacious. I learned this from my book on informal logic by Douglas Walton. Actually, a lot of "fallacies" shouldn't readily be called such. It does depend on the context. For example, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a loaded question if you're a bachelor, or if you never beat your wife. However, it is a perfectly valid question to ask if the one who is being accused has actually done so.

Let me put it another way. Say you picked up a firearm. You don't know if it's loaded or not, but you treat it as such. It's an argument from ignorance, but you presume it is loaded anyway. This is perfectly valid. Or the accused is on trial for murder. The accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser, though this is an argument from ignorance.

Indeed.

When I encounter proponents of Ganondorf, I'm always told, "He can only die by holy/light attacks." That's an assertion, and assertions must be proved.

And I have been proving it.

I am perfectly fine with accepting the master sword and light arrows being the most effective means to killing Ganondorf, but I have no reason to think he's going to survive weapons that Samus possesses. "The burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies."

You're the one who's declaring that Samus's weapons can harm Ganondorf; I'm the one who's denying it. I've provided proof for my side, so the burden thereof is shifted to you.

 

[Nerdicon]

Balancing (making multiple characters or other elements of a game more equal) is only an issue when there are multiple things to balance. In 3D World, what does the item collision detection thing balance the playable cast against exactly? They all share this attribute, so it's not balancing them against each other. The enemies don't have power-ups in the first place, so there wasn't really any intent of balancing the enemies with the playable characters. Instead, it's to make it easier to share power- ups when, for instance, the characters are moving forward; if there was collision detection at that point, the character giving the item would often grab the item right away and couldn't share it as a result.

On the other hand, there is some balancing to be done with the Archer ability. All Copy Abilities must be balanced because, other than making each choice equally as attractive to players to use in the campaign, there's also the versus mode where each player chooses a different Copy Ability and they all fight. If the Archer's block didn't, well, block attacks, it would be unfair to whoever was using that ability, so they made it block attacks for gameplay purposes.

There's no point to sharing items when every player can access the items in question. That's why I said earlier as a design choice it makes no sense.
Your second paragraph makes no sense. Archer's crouch makes him invincible. Case Closed.

See above.

Still makes no sense

Where did you get light speed from? Gameplay > Smash as it currently stands. The Warp Star takes a bit to get up to speed in Kirby, and it hasn't been shown that he could control that speed or make it effective here for anything but getting from point a to point b. He couldn't aim attacks properly, maneuver around small areas, or things that would make it useful for combat. By the way, didn't you say that the Warp Star takes a minute to call in via the cellphone?

There are a plethora of contradictions in these games. For example Kirby is perfectly fine flying around at incredible speeds, and yet can be damaged by the seemingly harmless Waddle Dees
Correction, what the characters do in Smash are non-canon; the trophies describe canon information. Not to mention the trophy refers to the main canon so it gets priority over gameplay. As for the trophy description (if you really want to go there):

Spoiler

A warp-speed item. In the Kirby series, Warp Stars are used to move between stages. In Smash Bros., they're ultrafast attack items that zoom up and down to devastate anyone they hit. You can shift your landing spot by moving the Control Stick left or right during your descent. Choose your target and hang on! Don't overshoot the mark and plummet off the stage, though

If your assumption were the case the sentence would make more grammatical sense if the beginning phrase was not there and the paragraph started with "In the Kirby series". With it's placement in the sentence, the starting phrase broadly describes the Warp Star, as in both canons. Not to mention the phrase "In Smash Bros., they're ultrafast attack items..." references a different speed or else the same word or a close synonym would be used instead of ultra-fast.

^Lightspeed
Anyway, I've already said why the start-up lag isn't important (he can just guard until it takes off). What do you mean it hasn't been shown he could control that speed? By that logic it hasn't been shown that he can't, but we can assume that he does have control because he's never completely lost control, and the star seems impossible to land properly. Not to mention, It doesn't need to be moving full speed at all times. It can get from point a to b nearly instantly while going at full speed and can maneuver around practically everything. There is no evidence that Kirby can't control the warp star. He could aim his attacks even better than when he was moving slower. When he's moving that fast his opponents probably seem like they're standing still. And no the warp star does not take that long to call in, that's ridiculous.
Agreed.

Agreed for the Mirror ability.

Agreed.

2f45t2c0ntrol

Stated above.

With proper spacing, she could be on one side of the arena in a safe spot and create a star where Kirby is, on the other side. She could also just force him inside via forcefield TK.
And she could make a star/black hole while he's stuck in place.
If Rosalina created a black hole right next to Kirby, he would get sucked in instantly. If he tried to inhale it, the black hole would just get closer and suck him in.

Kirby can inhale the plasma the star is made out of to avoid damage, or just use an invincibility candy. It's all a moot point given that Kirby on the Warp Star can be right next to Rosalina in an instant. I'm pretty sure that Rosalina doesn't have a chance if Kirby just uses the warp star to get over, then Baton beams her.
If he gets trapped in a forcefield he can either summon the warp star and have it Crash into Rosa, or turn into Kabuki Kirby to shoot Rosalina and get her to lose focus. Of course she'd have to catch him first. If Kirby got sucked into a black hole while going at it full speed on the warp star, he'd be a little safer than trying to resist. Not to mention if he used an invincibility candy he could swallow a bunch of them and then spit them out at Rosalina who would be promptly destroyed.

I agree.
[/quote]Attacker: Kirby

's attack: Hammah Time
The Hammer ability gives Kirby a powerful melee attack option that becomes a force to be reckoned with when combined with the warp star
's counter: Invincibility Star
There's no way Rosalina is going to react to Kirby on the warp star so the forcefield is out of the picture, using an invincibility star is her best bet[/quote]

Didn't she just equip the Starman though?

It only lasts for 10 seconds and she can't do much as Kirby would probably shift his attention over to defeating the Lumas after realizing Rosalina was invincible.

I dunno, black holes seem pretty versatile when it comes to killing people.

Doesn't stop Kirby from just not flying in to the event horizon.

 

[Munomario777]

There's no point to sharing items when every player can access the items in question. That's why I said earlier as a design choice it makes no sense.
Your second paragraph makes no sense. Archer's crouch makes him invincible. Case Closed.

Whether or not it's needed is irrelevant. It was intended for a gameplay purpose, so it's purely a gameplay mechanic, rather than an attribute of the character(s). In my second paragraph, I was referring to the balance needed between Copy Abilities for two reasons:

1. To make all options equally effective in the singleplayer mode, and prevent either one or all but one Copy Ability being useless in comparison to the others. If the Archer's guard didn't block attacks, it would be useless since it would hinder one of Kirby's natural abilities, so it was made invulnerable.
2. To balance the multiplayer "Kirby Fighters" mode, in which each Kirby picks a Copy Ability and battles the others in a free-for-all fight. If Archer Kirby could not block attacks, it would likely not get chosen often; thus, they made it invulnerable to restore balance.

^Lightspeed

Main series games > Smash.

Anyway, I've already said why the start-up lag isn't important (he can just guard until it takes off).

Kirby is still affected by gravity during the guard animation, so a black hole would still suck him in. He couldn't escape the black hole via the Warp Star once it arrives either, since even if it could move at light speed, light can't even escape a black hole, so it would still get stuck.

What do you mean it hasn't been shown he could control that speed? By that logic it hasn't been shown that he can't, but we can assume that he does have control because he's never completely lost control, and the star seems impossible to land properly.

I mean that he wouldn't have the reaction time necessary to move at high speeds without crashing. Normal humans wouldn't be able to pull off maneuvers at extremely high speeds due to limitations on reaction time, so there's no reason to assume that Kirby could.

Not to mention, It doesn't need to be moving full speed at all times.

Then what is the point of bringing up such speeds in the first place?

It can get from point a to b nearly instantly while going at full speed and can maneuver around practically everything.

I'm not questioning the Warp Star's ability to maneuver; I'm saying that Kirby wouldn't have the reaction time to pull it off.

There is no evidence that Kirby can't control the warp star.

And saying that that means that he could is an argument from ignorance.

He could aim his attacks even better than when he was moving slower. When he's moving that fast his opponents probably seem like they're standing still.

No, that's not how it works. If you're moving past objects at high speeds, they are moving as quickly to you as you are to them. If you pass someone whilst travelling at supersonic speeds, they will appear to be travelling at that same speed relative to you.

And no the warp star does not take that long to call in, that's ridiculous.

I've played Amazing Mirror recently and I can tell you that there is a minute amount of lag when you call it.

Kirby can inhale the plasma the star is made out of to avoid damage, or just use an invincibility candy. It's all a moot point given that Kirby on the Warp Star can be right next to Rosalina in an instant. I'm pretty sure that Rosalina doesn't have a chance if Kirby just uses the warp star to get over, then Baton beams her.

If Kirby was inside the gigantic star as it appeared (which would happen if she created it in the same place as Kirby), he wouldn't have a chance to use any of those items before being singed by the star.

If he gets trapped in a forcefield he can either summon the warp star and have it Crash into Rosa, or turn into Kabuki Kirby to shoot Rosalina and get her to lose focus. Of course she'd have to catch him first. If Kirby got sucked into a black hole while going at it full speed on the warp star, he'd be a little safer than trying to resist. Not to mention if he used an invincibility candy he could swallow a bunch of them and then spit them out at Rosalina who would be promptly destroyed.

As you said earlier (and as I just quoted), the Warp Star takes a minute to phone in, so that's not an option. The transformation into Kabuki Kirby takes a few seconds, and that beam you mentioned wouldn't affect Rosalina with a Starman. Why would Kirby be safe going into a black hole at full speed? Invincibility Candy doesn't make Kirby resistant to gravity, so the black hole would still take effect. It's also not immune to certain OHKO hazards, so spaghettification would still likely occur and kill Kirby (and if not, the gravity would hold him in place until it ran out). Anything Kirby spits out becomes a small, star-shaped projectile, so it wouldn't do much to Rosalina.

I agree.

Glad we're on the same page.

It only lasts for 10 seconds and she can't do much as Kirby would probably shift his attention over to defeating the Lumas after realizing Rosalina was invincible.

And while Kirby is distracted, Rosalina would then unleash a black hole right next to Kirby, thus resulting in instant death.

Doesn't stop Kirby from just not flying in to the event horizon.

Oh, Kirby doesn't have to fly into it; she could forcefield TK him into it, or alternatively, she could just create one right next to Kirby's current location (or flood the arena with black holes leaving no space for Kirby to move).

 

[Crystanium]

I do like that idea, but there are some sources that should be considered less reliable than others. For example, other forms of media (such as, say, Sonic the Comic) and Smash Brothers should be regarded as lower than the games because the games are the main series. In addition, there are some things that are stated in lore that are altered in gameplay due to gameplay reasons (such as for balance/making the game easier/harder) or for technical reasons (most often high speeds) that should be taken into account. I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

I agree. I tend not to take what other types of media say if they're not the original media. I'm fine with the mention of high speeds in textual evidence where game play doesn't permit it.

Well, using the definition of "effective" as "being successful in achieving a goal", then the entry in Ganondorf's bio implies that only the Master Sword and Light Arrows (and similar weapons) can be used against Ganondorf effectively.

"Silver bullets are effective at killing werewolves, vampires, and witches."
"Eating foods high in fat is effective in losing weight."
"Parkour is an effective means of traveling on foot."

We can see that these things are effective, but they are not the only way killing werewolves, vampires, and witches, or losing weight, or getting from one place to another in a short amount of time. Since "effective" is an English word (or if you want to use the Japanese word, it makes no difference), and since it has a definition, then there's no reason to think that "effective" is an absolute word so as to say nothing else can harm Ganondorf. This gives leeway to the notion that Ganondorf can be injured or killed another way. I'll even offer you canon that's wrong, and this isn't even from a person in Skyward Sword, but from the game itself.

"You got the Fireshield Earrings! With these, you can stand any heat without a sweat. This is one of the three sacred gifts left by the goddess."

That's right, you can stand any heat without a sweat. Well, that's not true. Fall into lava or come in contact with a flame and Link receives damage. The only thing that would be dangerous about lava or a flame is the heat it's producing. It's canon, but it's incorrect. It's only applicable to convection.

While that's an interesting theory, until we find evidence to it in the games, we shouldn't use it in this discussion, since it's mostly speculation. There are so many characters with invincibility (or near-invincibility, but with a specific weakness) in this discussion that invincibility to most attacks being "illogical" isn't really an issue (and if it was, then many, many matchups would have to be drastically altered).

We're not going to find evidence ever because that either requires an omniscient statement, or it requires Ganondorf to have been attacked by every, single thing in the game. I've said this time and time again. In other words, when you ask me to prove Ganondorf can be harmed by anything else, you're asking me to prove a negative. The only evidence I can work with is evidence of its absence.

There have been enough Zelda games where this could have been clearly stated by in-game descriptions. As I pointed out earlier, "Hyrule’s people were informed by a divine oracle to make an 'expel-evil' sword. That sword was called the Master Sword, and it was said that it could be used by (a person) with the faithful hero’s values.” (ALttP Japanese manual) This is a divine oracle. This is as close as you can get to an omniscient statement from the gods. The divine oracle did not say the master sword was the only way to defeat evil, let alone Ganondorf. That's pretty vital information, don't you think?

I'm pretty sure that if you tried firing Light Arrows at Ganondorf continuously in the final boss battle, they wouldn't kill them. Also, the Master Sword takes a few hits to kill Ganondorf IIRC, rather than being a one hit kill.

Remove game play and it's likely Ganondorf won't last very long in battle when Link strikes him.

 

[Munomario777]

I agree. I tend not to take what other types of media say if they're not the original media. I'm fine with the mention of high speeds in textual evidence where game play doesn't permit it.

Glad we're on the same page.

"Silver bullets are effective at killing werewolves, vampires, and witches."
"Eating foods high in fat is effective in losing weight."
"Parkour is an effective means of traveling on foot."

We can see that these things are effective, but they are not the only way killing werewolves, vampires, and witches, or losing weight, or getting from one place to another in a short amount of time. Since "effective" is an English word (or if you want to use the Japanese word, it makes no difference), and since it has a definition, then there's no reason to think that "effective" is an absolute word so as to say nothing else can harm Ganondorf. This gives leeway to the notion that Ganondorf can be injured or killed another way.

The definition of the word "effective" means that it works at all. The three statements you provided are correct. When there's a list of all effective weapons that the game provides, it's implied to be all-inclusive, and there's no reason to believe that anything else would be effectively be based on the list alone. Let me put it this way. I could take out a red apple from a crate and say "this apple is red". Let's say that there's a list of all of the red apples that are in that crate. Since the purpose of a list is to include all instances of any given object, then there is no reason to believe that there is any other red apple in that crate besides the ones listed, unless other evidence proves the contrary (so if I found a red apple in the crate that wasn't on the list, that would overrule the list).

I'll even offer you canon that's wrong, and this isn't even from a person in Skyward Sword, but from the game itself.

"You got the Fireshield Earrings! With these, you can stand any heat without a sweat. This is one of the three sacred gifts left by the goddess."

That's right, you can stand any heat without a sweat. Well, that's not true. Fall into lava or come in contact with a flame and Link receives damage. The only thing that would be dangerous about lava or a flame is the heat it's producing. It's canon, but it's incorrect. It's only applicable to convection.

It only said without sweating; it didn't mention being burned or charred by fire and lava.

We're not going to find evidence ever because that either requires an omniscient statement, or it requires Ganondorf to have been attacked by every, single thing in the game. I've said this time and time again. In other words, when you ask me to prove Ganondorf can be harmed by anything else, you're asking me to prove a negative. The only evidence I can work with is evidence of its absence.

How is asking you to prove that another weapon could harm Ganondorf asking you to prove a negative? The negative side to the debate in question is the side that argues that other weapons cannot harm Ganondorf. And it looks like that's the side I'm on.

There have been enough Zelda games where this could have been clearly stated by in-game descriptions. As I pointed out earlier, "Hyrule’s people were informed by a divine oracle to make an 'expel-evil' sword. That sword was called the Master Sword, and it was said that it could be used by (a person) with the faithful hero’s values.” (ALttP Japanese manual) This is a divine oracle. This is as close as you can get to an omniscient statement from the gods. The divine oracle did not say the master sword was the only way to defeat evil, let alone Ganondorf. That's pretty vital information, don't you think?

Just because they didn't mention it those other times doesn't mean that the one time they did is false.

Remove game play and it's likely Ganondorf won't last very long in battle when Link strikes him.

Why would we remove gameplay?

Anyway, in the last post, I showed how th burden of proof has been shifted to you. As you said, it lies on the person claiming, not on the person denying. You're claiming that Samus's weapons could harm Ganondorf, and I'm denying it.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Munomario777
I know we're on Kirby vs Rosalina now, but I have to go back to Mario vs Shulk.

Spoiler

Shulk actually recreated the universe, so he's universal. Mario, at best, is mountain level. Shulk curbstomps in less than 10 seconds. Don't bother arguing with me, because I know for a 100% fact that I'm right and you're wrong.

Now to Rosalina, she has no method of summoning more Lumas. The whole "infinite Lumas" is something that applies in Smash; Smash isn't canon. If we're going with the rules Smash has, that means only one Luma at a time. We're evaluating the character "Rosalina & Luma", so we're only looking at the things that "Rosalina & Lumas" do in canon Mario games. None of these are summoning Lumas.

Now to the current discussion. Kirby is FTL off the Warp Star because he can dodge Kracko's lightning strikes. He's hit the sun before without taking damage, so a star won't do anything. How long does a Luma black hole last? Kirby as Stone Kirby is immune to black holes, and it lasts for any amount of time. Crash, Mike, Laser, and Kabuki would all go through the forcefield (Fire and Ice would go through the field as well, IIRC). Starman only lasts ten seconds, Kirby could run around to pass the time. If Rosalina fires Star Bits, Kirby would inhale them. Inhaling three or more of them would grant access to his most powerful Star Spit, which counts as three hits, so it would one-shot Rosie, provided she doesn't deflect or block it.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Munomario777
I know we're on Kirby vs Rosalina now, but I have to go back to Mario vs Shulk.

Spoiler

Shulk actually recreated the universe, so he's universal. Mario, at best, is mountain level. Shulk curbstomps in less than 10 seconds. Don't bother arguing with me, because I know for a 100% fact that I'm right and you're wrong.

There was a discussion on this matter earlier on in the thread, in which I presented my points against this.

Now to Rosalina, she has no method of summoning more Lumas. The whole "infinite Lumas" is something that applies in Smash; Smash isn't canon. If we're going with the rules Smash has, that means only one Luma at a time. We're evaluating the character "Rosalina & Luma", so we're only looking at the things that "Rosalina & Lumas" do in canon Mario games. None of these are summoning Lumas.

We're taking the characters from Smash Brothers and applying them to this discussion. In Smash Brothers, you play as Rosalina with an unlimited supply of Lumas. Thus, in this discussion, we're taking a practically unlimited amount of Lumas (or at least the amount that appears in the Galaxy games) and giving them to Rosalina. We're not going with the rules of Smash Brothers; we're taking the characters from Smash Brothers, seeing what they do in canon, and pitting them against each other. While Rosalina may not have been shown to summon in more Lumas, that doesn't really matter when she has so many at her disposal.

Now to the current discussion. Kirby is FTL off the Warp Star because he can dodge Kracko's lightning strikes.

How fast are those lightning strikes exactly?

He's hit the sun before without taking damage, so a star won't do anything.

Source?

How long does a Luma black hole last? Kirby as Stone Kirby is immune to black holes, and it lasts for any amount of time.

Black holes don't seem to have an expiration date; they just sit there, being black holes for an indefinite amount of time. Since Stone Kirby falls like, well, a rock, and black holes rely on gravity to suck in opponents, then Stone Kirby would, if anything, go into the black hole more quickly than regular, lightweight Kirby. While Stone Kirby might not be instantly spaghettified, regular Kirby would once he transformed back to normal. He wouldn't be able to do anything either, since not even light can escape a black hole.

Crash, Mike, Laser, and Kabuki would all go through the forcefield (Fire and Ice would go through the field as well, IIRC).

Perhaps, but they wouldn't go through her invincibility items.

Starman only lasts ten seconds, Kirby could run around to pass the time.

Ten seconds isn't really a low number when you can create a black hole in less than a second. If Kirby just ran around, it would make him an easy target for one of Rosalina's black holes (Kirby isn't very fast, after all).

If Rosalina fires Star Bits, Kirby would inhale them. Inhaling three or more of them would grant access to his most powerful Star Spit, which counts as three hits, so it would one-shot Rosie, provided she doesn't deflect or block it.

Rosalina can deflect Star Bits shot at her with her wand in Galaxy, so three put together wouldn't cause her too much trouble. She also has her protective force field if that doesn't work out.

 

[Nerdicon]

Whether or not it's needed is irrelevant. It was intended for a gameplay purpose, so it's purely a gameplay mechanic, rather than an attribute of the character(s). In my second paragraph, I was referring to the balance needed between Copy Abilities for two reasons:

1. To make all options equally effective in the singleplayer mode, and prevent either one or all but one Copy Ability being useless in comparison to the others. If the Archer's guard didn't block attacks, it would be useless since it would hinder one of Kirby's natural abilities, so it was made invulnerable.
2. To balance the multiplayer "Kirby Fighters" mode, in which each Kirby picks a Copy Ability and battles the others in a free-for-all fight. If Archer Kirby could not block attacks, it would likely not get chosen often; thus, they made it invulnerable to restore balance.

No, the camouflage move that makes Kirby invincible is without a doubt an attribute of the character. It's even listed as an attribute of the character in the move list for archer. There's no argument to be done here: it's an ability of the character (albeit on that doesn't make a whole lot of sense)
And the move doesn't work in Kirby Fighters, which isn't canon anyway.

Main series games > Smash.

I'd like to get a tally on how many times I've said this, but the trophies refer to the canon lore. The gameplay is what isn't canon, the trophies are canon because they describe the canon.

Kirby is still affected by gravity during the guard animation, so a black hole would still suck him in. He couldn't escape the black hole via the Warp Star once it arrives either, since even if it could move at light speed, light can't even escape a black hole, so it would still get stuck.

How would Rosalina get a black hole near Kirby before he took off? If they're about 50 meters away from each other Kirby could see the transforming Luma moving toward him from a mile away. He could probably just Hypernova the moving Luma.

I mean that he wouldn't have the reaction time necessary to move at high speeds without crashing. Normal humans wouldn't be able to pull off maneuvers at extremely high speeds due to limitations on reaction time, so there's no reason to assume that Kirby could.

If he doesn't lose control of the vehicle he has the reaction necessary to pilot the machine. You are arguing that a character who uses this vehicle constantly can't control it. And why are you making comparisons to real humans? He clearly has a quicker reaction time than them.

Then what is the point of bringing up such speeds in the first place?

For characters who may have trouble with said speed.

I'm not questioning the Warp Star's ability to maneuver; I'm saying that Kirby wouldn't have the reaction time to pull it off.

Which is an argument from ignorance.

And saying that that means that he could is an argument from ignorance.

Yet saying that he couldn't is an argument from ignorance

No, that's not how it works. If you're moving past objects at high speeds, they are moving as quickly to you as you are to them. If you pass someone whilst travelling at supersonic speeds, they will appear to be travelling at that same speed relative to you.

Of course they'd look like they're moving relative to you, but they'd be moving so slow by comparison that they would not change geographical location. Only their relative position would change.

If Kirby was inside the gigantic star as it appeared (which would happen if she created it in the same place as Kirby), he wouldn't have a chance to use any of those items before being singed by the star.

In order for the star to get that close the Luma has to get close after being filled up, which he might inhale anyway. Not to mention the candy activates instantly.

As you said earlier (and as I just quoted), the Warp Star takes a minute to phone in, so that's not an option. The transformation into Kabuki Kirby takes a few seconds, and that beam you mentioned wouldn't affect Rosalina with a Starman. Why would Kirby be safe going into a black hole at full speed? Invincibility Candy doesn't make Kirby resistant to gravity, so the black hole would still take effect. It's also not immune to certain OHKO hazards, so spaghettification would still likely occur and kill Kirby (and if not, the gravity would hold him in place until it ran out). Anything Kirby spits out becomes a small, star-shaped projectile, so it wouldn't do much to Rosalina.

I said a minute amount of time (emphasis on the i) as in a very small amount of time. And the transformation when accessing a power (as seen in KSS and Squeak Squad) is instant. That beam imposes telekinetic control over whoever it hits, it would still effect Rosalina she just couldn't be killed right away. Think of it like the Silver battle in Sonic 06, even if you have invincibility frames he can grab you, but if he threw you, you wouldn't take any damage. As I also said before, if Kirby rammed the black hole at full speed with Hypernova (and maybe an invincibility candy) he could swallow it and spit it out. There are only two OHKO hazards in Kirby games, falling into a pit or getting crushed (which isn't even the case in Triple Deluxe) so Kirby would likely be fine. Finally, if Kirby swallows something with Hypernova he'll spit out what he swallowed as seen here. The black hole would defeat Rosalina and her entire Luma army.

Glad we're on the same page.

We're not, that was from your post.

And while Kirby is distracted, Rosalina would then unleash a black hole right next to Kirby, thus resulting in instant death.

In the time she was invincible (if he didn't just use Baton) he would be killing off Lumas via warp star + an ability or Crash/Mike

Oh, Kirby doesn't have to fly into it; she could forcefield TK him into it, or alternatively, she could just create one right next to Kirby's current location (or flood the arena with black holes leaving no space for Kirby to move).

She could use her telekinesis...if she could catch him. You wouldn't even be able to see something moving at lightspeed. I've already said why creating one near him doesn't work and it would take a while too flood the entire battlefield.

 

[Munomario777]

No, the camouflage move that makes Kirby invincible is without a doubt an attribute of the character. It's even listed as an attribute of the character in the move list for archer. There's no argument to be done here: it's an ability of the character (albeit on that doesn't make a whole lot of sense)

"It defends against all attacks." "Defend" doesn't necessarily mean "block"; it could mean dodge, avoid, or in this case, hide. Kirby is hiding from enemies, who don't attack him as a result. Other attacks are shrugged off likely because this guard was coded similarly to the others, either for balance purposes or due to an oversight.

And the move doesn't work in Kirby Fighters, which isn't canon anyway.

Hmm, that's interesting.

I'd like to get a tally on how many times I've said this, but the trophies refer to the canon lore. The gameplay is what isn't canon, the trophies are canon because they describe the canon.

Something shouldn't be treated as canon just because it refers to the canon lore; in that case, Death Battle should be taken as canon.

How would Rosalina get a black hole near Kirby before he took off? If they're about 50 meters away from each other Kirby could see the transforming Luma moving toward him from a mile away. He could probably just Hypernova the moving Luma.

Simple: Fill up a Luma (or multiple Lumas) and send them directly at Kirby at extremely high speeds. How could Kirby see the Luma coming at him from a mile away if they're only 50 meters apart? If Kirby tried to Hypernova the Luma, it could turn into a black hole right as it got close (or other Lumas could turn into black holes behind Kirby while he's distracted).

If he doesn't lose control of the vehicle he has the reaction necessary to pilot the machine. You are arguing that a character who uses this vehicle constantly can't control it. And why are you making comparisons to real humans? He clearly has a quicker reaction time than them.

I'm not saying that Kirby can't control the Warp Star at all. I'm saying that he wouldn't be able to at warp speed and other extremely high speeds. Unless Kirby has been shown successfully piloting a Warp Star at such high speeds (which is normally impossible for anyone to have the reaction time to pull off), there's no reason to assume that he could.

For characters who may have trouble with said speed.

Such as Kirby himself.

Which is an argument from ignorance.

No, it's assuming something as false until proven true, which seems to be the best thing to do in this sort of situation. If Kirby can barely control the Warp Star's speeds as shown in-game (he crashes into every level), there's no way he could control it at speeds those high.

Yet saying that he couldn't is an argument from ignorance

So until we can get proof either way, we should avoid extrapolation and say that Kirby can only pilot the Warp Star at speeds that we've seen him pilot it at. It doesn't really change most matchups either way, since Milky Way Wishes seems to show a pretty fast Warp Star.

Of course they'd look like they're moving relative to you, but they'd be moving so slow by comparison that they would not change geographical location. Only their relative position would change.

Yes, but in regards to Kirby aiming, it's their position relative to him that matters, since it's harder to hit a moving target.

In order for the star to get that close the Luma has to get close after being filled up, which he might inhale anyway. Not to mention the candy activates instantly.

Ah, but Lumas turn into stars when they die, remember? Assuming that the foe dies when they enter Kirby's mouth (since they can be spat out as stars before they're swallowed), the Luma dies in Kirby's mouth, becomes the spiciest meal on earth, and Kirby dies. If I'm not mistaken, the Invincibility Candy doesn't protect Kirby from lava, and stars are much hotter than lava at their core (where Kirby would be, given that it just formed in his mouth or right in front of him).

I said a minute amount of time (emphasis on the i) as in a very small amount of time.

Ah, okay. My mistake. Out of curiosity, how long exactly does it take?

And the transformation when accessing a power (as seen in KSS and Squeak Squad) is instant. That beam imposes telekinetic control over whoever it hits, it would still effect Rosalina she just couldn't be killed right away. Think of it like the Silver battle in Sonic 06, even if you have invincibility frames he can grab you, but if he threw you, you wouldn't take any damage.

Ah. Still, the Lumas would probably be smart enough to catch on and form a black hole/star/etc. while Kirby is too busy mind controlling Rosalina (which wouldn't really do him much good anyways, since the Lumas are the ones who do the transforming).

As I also said before, if Kirby rammed the black hole at full speed with Hypernova (and maybe an invincibility candy) he could swallow it and spit it out. There are only two OHKO hazards in Kirby games, falling into a pit or getting crushed (which isn't even the case in Triple Deluxe) so Kirby would likely be fine.

If Kirby inhaled the black hole without an Invincibility Candy (which he wouldn't have access to eventually, since he only has a few of them), it would rip him apart from the inside out. If he didn't inhale it, he wouldn't be able to escape the black hole (again, invincible Kirby is still affected by gravity), and when the Invincibility Candy runs out, Kirby gets spaghettified. Falling into a black hole seems comparable to falling into a bottomless pit (that's the purpose they serve in Galaxy, after all, and they OHKO Rainbow Mario in that game).

Finally, if Kirby swallows something with Hypernova he'll spit out what he swallowed as seen here. The black hole would defeat Rosalina and her entire Luma army.

I saw Kirby inhale leaves and platforms. I saw him spit out stars and hearts. This seems like an amplified version of Kirby's star spit; he spits something out, but it's not the same thing that went in. Either way, Rosalina and the Lumas wouldn't be affected, since they can resist gravity (they levitate constantly while Mario is affected by gravity like normal).

We're not, that was from your post.

Oh oops, lol.

In the time she was invincible (if he didn't just use Baton) he would be killing off Lumas via warp star + an ability or Crash/Mike

And any Lumas that weren't within a few feet's distance of Kirby (the approximate range of Crash/Mike) would be filling up with Star Bits to transform.

She could use her telekinesis...if she could catch him. You wouldn't even be able to see something moving at lightspeed. I've already said why creating one near him doesn't work and it would take a while too flood the entire battlefield.

Kirby could go at light speed... if he could control it. Not being able to see light speed objects goes both ways. If Kirby is moving at light speed, then everything around him appears to be going at light speed relative to Kirby, and he wouldn't be able to react that quickly. Rosalina can catch Mario while he's ground pounding, and he goes downwards pretty quickly during that move. She can also precisely deflect high-speed Star Bits with her wand, further showing her reaction time. It wouldn't take very long to fill the entire battlefield with enough Lumas; since they can fire Star Bits on their own, two Lumas could go to each area, fill up, and transform, while Rosalina battles Kirby with another Luma squad. Kirby would likely be too focused on Rosalina to worry about the Lumas creating black holes surrounding the area, and if Kirby tried to escape after a few seconds (the time it would take to turn into a black hole) by flying away on the Warp Star, he would inevitably crash into one at some point.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@Dryn We're not asking you to prove a negative. We're asking you find an example in gameplay or lore that suggests weapons that don't repel evil can kill Ganondorf. We have multiple cases of tangible evidence for our side, but all you have is theories about an argument from ignorance for your case. You've also said the burden of proof is on the defense, but that wouldn't hold up in a court of law. This is straight from Cornell Law School University's website

"

1. For example, in criminal cases, the burden of proving the defendant's guilt is on the prosecution, and they must establish that fact beyond a reasonable doubt. In civil cases, the plaintiff has the burden of proving his case by a preponderance of the evidence.

"

So far you've given neither of the bolded.
But why are we wasting our time with this particular argument when you said you agreed to follow only items that repel evil to hurt Ganondorf?

@ Nerdicon

What's to stop Rosalina from teleporting into a corner and making a wall of black holes (at a far enough distance from her that she'll be safe, but so close to each other that Kirby can't get in?

Also, Rosalina can always just use her perfect shield or invincible items to resist Baton Kirby. I'd also argue once he tosses the baton at an enemy that he loses the power-up. And I'm not assuming said explosion will kill any one just because it killed that one enemy.

@ Munomario777
I know we're on Kirby vs Rosalina now, but I have to go back to Mario vs Shulk.

Spoiler

Shulk actually recreated the universe, so he's universal. Mario, at best, is mountain level. Shulk curbstomps in less than 10 seconds. Don't bother arguing with me, because I know for a 100% fact that I'm right and you're wrong.

Now to Rosalina, she has no method of summoning more Lumas. The whole "infinite Lumas" is something that applies in Smash; Smash isn't canon. If we're going with the rules Smash has, that means only one Luma at a time. We're evaluating the character "Rosalina & Luma", so we're only looking at the things that "Rosalina & Lumas" do in canon Mario games. None of these are summoning Lumas.

Now to the current discussion. Kirby is FTL off the Warp Star because he can dodge Kracko's lightning strikes. He's hit the sun before without taking damage, so a star won't do anything. How long does a Luma black hole last? Kirby as Stone Kirby is immune to black holes, and it lasts for any amount of time. Crash, Mike, Laser, and Kabuki would all go through the forcefield (Fire and Ice would go through the field as well, IIRC). Starman only lasts ten seconds, Kirby could run around to pass the time. If Rosalina fires Star Bits, Kirby would inhale them. Inhaling three or more of them would grant access to his most powerful Star Spit, which counts as three hits, so it would one-shot Rosie, provided she doesn't deflect or block it.

Lightning bolts only move at 224,000 mph. More importantly, Kirby could dodge those because Kracko always telegraphs his attack.

As for the whole luma thing, I went back and forth on the issue and after rewatching all the cutscenes I could find, I'm on the side of her summoning unlimited Lumas.
1) At the beginning of SMG, while first talking to Rosalina, she casually waves her wand and the luma that assists Mario comes out of nowhere. So we know that her summoning Lumas is fact. And since we know there are like an indefinite number of them, why couldn't she just summon more?
2) At the game, that giant black hole is made that starts sucking up everything, including the Star Comet observatory. So where did the dozens and dozens of Lumas that combined their powers to stop the black hole come from? You could either argue they could sense the presence of the black hole from all across the cosmos, or that Rosalina summoned them (since we know she was nearby) and told them to stop it. I go for the latter. Lumas are sentient, but there's been no evidence shown they can sense other Lumas (in fact in the storybook, Rosalina's first luma friend seemed surprised and caught off guard by the first other Luma it saw).

As for Shulk being a god I lean towards yes. You say Alvis is the god, not Shulk, but that's not true. Alvis is the Monado, and Alvis himself says the Monado (which is Alvis) bends to the will of it's master. You said before Alvis is like a computer and Shulk is the person with the administrator account on the computer, but that neglects to mention that said computer is inside the sword that Shulk wields. It's like having a wish granting object, only the object is sentient like Wisps or Pixls. Shulk, in this battle, wishing for universe to be rewritten without his opponent, is no different than him using a Monado art or being able to see a vision. If you say Shulk can't have god-like power because the power is Alvis, he shouldn't be able to use any of the Monado's powers or use visions because technically all of those are Alvis too.
Also, something you probably couldn't tell from Googling (idk if you watched or read the ending) is that Homs isn't Alvis, it's just a form he took. So this wouldn't really be like summoning an ally since Alvis's "true" form, if he even has one, is a glowing green light.

 

[Munomario777]

@ ShadowLBlue

I fully agree with your post up until the last paragraph. In the discussion on the subject I linked when I replied to Kirby Dragons, I brought up that Alvis refers to the Monado in the third person (i.e. "The Monado did this"), and I believe that it was brought up that "Monado" was the code name for some secret project that involved Alvis (which makes sense since he says "I am Monado" rather than "I am the Monado"). I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but it should be in that link (and if not, you should be able to find it if you search the thread for "Alvis").

 

[blue_flavored]

I think we're forgetting something really important here; Ness can abort you before you're even born. So he's clearly the winner here.

 

[Nerdicon]

@ Nerdicon

What's to stop Rosalina from teleporting into a corner and making a wall of black holes (at a far enough distance from her that she'll be safe, but so close to each other that Kirby can't get in?

Also, Rosalina can always just use her perfect shield or invincible items to resist Baton Kirby. I'd also argue once he tosses the baton at an enemy that he loses the power-up. And I'm not assuming said explosion will kill any one just because it killed that one enemy.

The incredibly slow speed of the teleport, that's what.

As for baton, the laser at the beginning (which is pretty quick) gives him telekinetic control over the target. This goes through the shield as well as stalling out invincibility. What do I mean? Well if Rosalina's being telekinetically controlled she only moves based on the movement of the baton. If the Lumas try to do anything, Kirby can just move her into the black hole/star which would kill her too (not to mention Kirby could use one of five invincibility candies). Not to mention he doesn't toss the baton at the enemy, he throws the baton which causes the opponent to explode. Unless you have regenerative abilities comparable to Cell that'll destroy anyone.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Nerdicon

While the teleport may be slow, Lumas can turn into Launch Stars, which Rosalina could use to create the necessary gap.

There's not much Kirby could do with Baton. Lumas can still transform without Rosalina, and as I said earlier, Rosalina and the Lumas are immune to black holes since they can ignore gravity at will (they levitate constantly), but either way, the Lumas would be smart enough to not make a star or black hole next to Rosalina, and would instead aim for Kirby, who is busy controlling the opponent. Judging from the video you linked, the baton only moves the opponent where the baton moves, rather than actually performing mind control; you can hear the enemy screaming. Thus, she could use her teleport (which only takes a couple of seconds) to escape.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant unless you can prove that Baton Kirby affects invincible enemies, like Rosalina with a Starman.

EDIT: By the way, how's that Samus VS Link analysis going, @Dryn?

 

[Crystanium]

The definition of the word "effective" means that it works at all. The three statements you provided are correct. When there's a list of all effective weapons that the game provides, it's implied to be all-inclusive, and there's no reason to believe that anything else would be effectively be based on the list alone. Let me put it this way. I could take out a red apple from a crate and say "this apple is red". Let's say that there's a list of all of the red apples that are in that crate. Since the purpose of a list is to include all instances of any given object, then there is no reason to believe that there is any other red apple in that crate besides the ones listed, unless other evidence proves the contrary (so if I found a red apple in the crate that wasn't on the list, that would overrule the list).

You would need to prove that it's implied to be all-inclusive. Clearly, that "list" didn't prove all the methods. The silver arrows are capable of killing Ganondorf. I know we've been through this one before, but before you decide to quote the old man saying, "Secret power is said to be in the arrow" and interpret this as "the power to repel evil", I will demonstrate why this is not so.

I have no idea why Zelda Wiki assumes this sentence is referring to silver arrows, when it isn't. This is actually a localized translation from Nintendo of America. The actual Japanese says, "There are some creatures that are weak against sound." When the old man says "some creatures", he's referring to Pols Voice. Not only can we disregard silver arrows as having the power to repel evil (as there is no evidence), your analogy doesn't work.

It only said without sweating; it didn't mention being burned or charred by fire and lava.

It doesn't say "without sweating". Link doesn't need it to prevent sweating, as he can walk around Eldin Volcano without any issue anyway. The fireshield earrings serve a purpose by preventing Link from receiving damage from certain areas where if Link wanders into these areas, his clothes will burst on fire. Considering the purpose of these earrings is to prevent setting on fire in these areas, the fact that flames, lava, and magma harm him makes it clear that "any" is incorrect. Therefore, canon can be incorrect.

How is asking you to prove that another weapon could harm Ganondorf asking you to prove a negative? The negative side to the debate in question is the side that argues that other weapons cannot harm Ganondorf. And it looks like that's the side I'm on.

You're right. There's no reason for me to say "prove a negative". Your statement can equally be rephrased as, "Ganondorf can only be harmed and killed by light/holy attacks." The funny thing is, the onus isn't on me. Someone else earlier in this thread around page 40+ claimed that Ganondorf could not be harmed by anything except the master sword. I simply objected. What is more, the one who said that Samus would lose against Ganondorf done so on the basis of, "Ganondorf can only be harmed by the power to repel evil". There would be no other reason than that because from every proponent of Ganondorf I've bumped into, it's always been that very reason. The onus is not on me.

Just because they didn't mention it those other times doesn't mean that the one time they did is false.

What? My point is that you have an oracle who received a divine message, which I showed you in my last post. If only the power to repel evil could kill Ganondorf, that would have been a very important detail to leave out.

Why would we remove gameplay?

I suppose I'm just thinking of the cut-scene from Metroid: Other M where the hyper beam killed Mother Brain instantly.

My analysis between Samus and composite Link is taking quite a while. It's not easy having to collect all this information about Link.

@Dryn We're not asking you to prove a negative. We're asking you find an example in gameplay or lore that suggests weapons that don't repel evil can kill Ganondorf. We have multiple cases of tangible evidence for our side, but all you have is theories about an argument from ignorance for your case. You've also said the burden of proof is on the defense, but that wouldn't hold up in a court of law. This is straight from Cornell Law School University's website

"

1. For example, in criminal cases, the burden of proving the defendant's guilt is on the prosecution, and they must establish that fact beyond a reasonable doubt. In civil cases, the plaintiff has the burden of proving his case by a preponderance of the evidence.

"

So far you've given neither of the bolded.
But why are we wasting our time with this particular argument when you said you agreed to follow only items that repel evil to hurt Ganondorf?

The legal definition of the burden of proof isn't the same as the one used in philosophy. The legal definition always presumes the accused is innocent until proven guilty. The philosophical kind is, "Whoever asserts must prove." I'm using evidence of absence as the basis for not accepting Ganondorf's extrapolated ability.

 

[Munomario777]

You would need to prove that it's implied to be all-inclusive. Clearly, that "list" didn't prove all the methods. The silver arrows are capable of killing Ganondorf. I know we've been through this one before, but before you decide to quote the old man saying, "Secret power is said to be in the arrow" and interpret this as "the power to repel evil", I will demonstrate why this is not so.

Unless it's otherwise proven, a list should be taken to be all-inclusive, and we shouldn't add anything to the list without proof. The Silver Arrows, for example, are proven to be effective against Ganondorf, so we can add them to the list. Samus's beams are not, on the other hand (unless you have some other evidence), so we can't add them to the list until we get some solid proof.

I have no idea why Zelda Wiki assumes this sentence is referring to silver arrows, when it isn't. This is actually a localized translation from Nintendo of America. The actual Japanese says, "There are some creatures that are weak against sound." When the old man says "some creatures", he's referring to Pols Voice. Not only can we disregard silver arrows as having the power to repel evil (as there is no evidence), your analogy doesn't work.

If it's an adaptation of the original Japanese that refers to the Silver Arrows, doesn't it still apply to the Silver Arrows? That is interesting, though, how the Silver Arrows apparently have some sort of sonic power.

It doesn't say "without sweating". Link doesn't need it to prevent sweating, as he can walk around Eldin Volcano without any issue anyway. The fireshield earrings serve a purpose by preventing Link from receiving damage from certain areas where if Link wanders into these areas, his clothes will burst on fire. Considering the purpose of these earrings is to prevent setting on fire in these areas, the fact that flames, lava, and magma harm him makes it clear that "any" is incorrect. Therefore, canon can be incorrect.

It says "without a sweat". The lore says that Link does not sweat in heat when he wears the earrings. Link does not sweat in heat when he wears the earrings. Therefore, the lore is correct.

You're right. There's no reason for me to say "prove a negative". Your statement can equally be rephrased as, "Ganondorf can only be harmed and killed by light/holy attacks."

Yes, and "only A" roughly means "nothing other than A". "Nothing" is a negative word, and this is a negative statement. Your statement (Ganondorf can be harmed by Samus's beams) is a positive statement, and mine is a negative one; thus, the burden of proof lies with you.

The funny thing is, the onus isn't on me. Someone else earlier in this thread around page 40+ claimed that Ganondorf could not be harmed by anything except the master sword. I simply objected.

And?

What is more, the one who said that Samus would lose against Ganondorf done so on the basis of, "Ganondorf can only be harmed by the power to repel evil". There would be no other reason than that because from every proponent of Ganondorf I've bumped into, it's always been that very reason. The onus is not on me.

Once again, "only" means "nothing other than". It is a negative statement, and the opposition (with the positive statement) possesses the burden of proof. In that case, that would be you.

What? My point is that you have an oracle who received a divine message, which I showed you in my last post. If only the power to repel evil could kill Ganondorf, that would have been a very important detail to leave out.

"Hyrule’s people were informed by a divine oracle to make an 'expel-evil' sword. That sword was called the Master Sword, and it was said that it could be used by (a person) with the faithful hero’s values.”

If an oracle told them to make a sword that is literally called an "expel-evil" sword, then I don't see what other explanation is needed. If you give someone a gun that fired cheese labelles "cheese-firing gun", then there's not much explanation needed.

I suppose I'm just thinking of the cut-scene from Metroid: Other M where the hyper beam killed Mother Brain instantly.

Ah. I haven't played Other M (or the Metroid series in general besides the original in NES Remix and Super Metroid in the Masterpieces section, haha), so I'm assuming there's a contradiction there somewhere.

My analysis between Samus and composite Link is taking quite a while. It's not easy having to collect all this information about Link.

Yeah, especially when there's so many games with so many Links... I can't wait to see the end result!

 

[Crystanium]

It says "without a sweat". The lore says that Link does not sweat in heat when he wears the earrings. Link does not sweat in heat when he wears the earrings. Therefore, the lore is correct.

But Link wasn't sweating to begin with, so . . .

Yes, and "only A" roughly means "nothing other than A". "Nothing" is a negative word, and this is a negative statement. Your statement (Ganondorf can be harmed by Samus's beams) is a positive statement, and mine is a negative one; thus, the burden of proof lies with you.

Any statement that's positive can be rephrased negatively and vice versa. "Ganondorf cannot withstand Samus' beams" is a negative statement. I think you have a misunderstood notion of what the burden of proof is, though. When someone says, "Whoever makes the positive claim", they don't mean that as long as it's worded in a negative manner, that the burden of proof doesn't fall on them. That'd be silly. Read here.

And?

The onus shouldn't be on me in the first place.

Once again, "only" means "nothing other than". It is a negative statement, and the opposition (with the positive statement) possesses the burden of proof. In that case, that would be you.

Nope, since I didn't make the claim from the beginning.

If an oracle told them to make a sword that is literally called an "expel-evil" sword, then I don't see what other explanation is needed. If you give someone a gun that fired cheese labelles "cheese-firing gun", then there's not much explanation needed.

She didn't say anything about it being the only way.

 

[Munomario777]

But Link wasn't sweating to begin with, so . . .

"With these, you can stand any heat without a sweat."
With the earrings, Link does not sweat in heat. It never says that he sweats without the earrings.

Any statement that's positive can be rephrased negatively and vice versa. "Ganondorf cannot withstand Samus' beams" is a negative statement. I think you have a misunderstood notion of what the burden of proof is, though. When someone says, "Whoever makes the positive claim", they don't mean that as long as it's worded in a negative manner, that the burden of proof doesn't fall on them. That'd be silly. Read here.

Okay, I read there. It doesn't provide much insight on who holds the burden of proof; could you clarify please?

Nope, since I didn't make the claim from the beginning.

The beginning, where you made the claim.

She didn't say anything about it being the only way.

And?

 

[Crystanium]

Samus's beams are not, on the other hand (unless you have some other evidence), so we can't add them to the list until we get some solid proof.

• If Ganondorf is vulnerable to weapons of light, then he is vulnerable to the light beam.
• If he is vulnerable to the light beam, then he can be defeated by Samus.
• Therefore, if Ganondorf is vulnerable to weapons of light, he can be defeated by Samus.

The light beam fires bright, pure light and "is effective against dark creatures". (Metroid Prime 2: Echoes manual) As a bonus, Shigeru Miyamoto worked on this game.

 

[Munomario777]

• If Ganondorf is vulnerable to weapons of light, then he is vulnerable to the light beam.
• If he is vulnerable to the light beam, then he can be defeated by Samus.
• Therefore, if Ganondorf is vulnerable to weapons of light, he can be defeated by Samus.

The light beam fires bright, pure light and "is effective against dark creatures". (Metroid Prime 2: Echoes manual)

The Light Arrows consume Magic, and use it to fire sacred (fitting in with the Master Sword) light. Even if the Light Beam did use magic and was composed of sacred light, the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf, and cannot defeat him, as they deal no actual damage.

 

[Crystanium]

The Light Arrows consume Magic, and use it to fire sacred (fitting in with the Master Sword) light. Even if the Light Beam did use magic and was composed of sacred light, the Light Arrows only stun Ganondorf, and cannot defeat him, as they deal no actual damage.

Oh, Munomario777, you are impossible to please. The point is not only are the Ing and Ganondorf dark creatures filled with hatred, they're vulnerable to weapons of light. You treat magic as being superior to technology. Are you also honestly saying that because light arrows won't kill Ganondorf, the light beam won't? One of the things before Metroid Prime 2: Echoes was released was that people could see the similarities between it and A Link to the Past. No surprise there, considering Shigeru Miyamoto, creator of Zelda, worked with Retro Studios on the game.

Even if the light beam doesn't kill Ganondorf, the fact of the matter is that when struck by a light arrow, he's vulnerable to weapons that don't have the power to repel evil, such as the biggoron sword and megaton hammer. I'm sure you think Ganondorf can survive a weapon capable of distorting space-time, though, so I'm not even going to continue with this.

 

[Munomario777]

Oh, Munomario777, you are impossible to please. The point is not only are the Ing and Ganondorf dark creatures filled with hatred, they're vulnerable to weapons of light. You treat magic as being superior to technology. Are you also honestly saying that because light arrows won't kill Ganondorf, the light beam won't? One of the things before Metroid Prime 2: Echoes was released was that people could see the similarities between it and A Link to the Past. No surprise there, considering Shigeru Miyamoto, creator of Zelda, worked with Retro Studios on the game.

I'm not saying that all magic is superior to technology; that would be silly. I'm saying that, to slay a (demi)god (AKA Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power), it helps to have a weapon bestowed with the power of the gods. I'm not saying that the Light Arrows not killing Ganondorf absolutely means that the Light Beam cannot; I'm saying that until we see a weapon like the Light Beam harm Ganondorf, we shouldn't assume that it could, especially when a weapon with similar attributes to the Light Beam (the Light Arrow) could not kill Ganondorf. And before you say that the purpose of the Light Arrow is purely to stun enemies while the Light Beam deals damage, that is not true, as the Light Arrow deals immense damage to regular enemies in Wind Waker, often resulting in a one-hit KO. These enemies are also composed of dark elements like the Ing are, as shown by the dark cloud of magic they leave behind when they are killed and the fact that they're Ganondorf's minions.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm not saying that all magic is superior to technology; that would be silly. I'm saying that, to slay a (demi)god (AKA Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power), it helps to have a weapon bestowed with the power of the gods. I'm not saying that the Light Arrows not killing Ganondorf absolutely means that the Light Beam cannot; I'm saying that until we see a weapon like the Light Beam harm Ganondorf, we shouldn't assume that it could, especially when a weapon with similar attributes to the Light Beam (the Light Arrow) could not kill Ganondorf. And before you say that the purpose of the Light Arrow is purely to stun enemies while the Light Beam deals damage, that is not true, as the Light Arrow deals immense damage to regular enemies in Wind Waker, often resulting in a one-hit KO. These enemies are also composed of dark elements like the Ing are, as shown by the dark cloud of magic they leave behind when they are killed and the fact that they're Ganondorf's minions.

Well, the issue is that no matter what I say, you're going to say nothing can harm Ganondorf. Since we cannot ever see if the light beam would work on Ganondorf, but only work with elemental compatibility, it's honestly not fair to say, "Until we see a weapon like the light beam harm Ganondorf, we shouldn't assume that it could." But, continue with that no-limits fallacy. I'm honestly done here.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, the issue is that no matter what I say, you're going to say nothing can harm Ganondorf. Since we cannot ever see if the light beam would work on Ganondorf, but only work with elemental compatibility, it's honestly not fair to say, "Until we see a weapon like the light beam harm Ganondorf, we shouldn't assume that it could." But, continue with that no-limits fallacy. I'm honestly done here.

It is fair if there's a statement from lore (and, in this case, a similar, but more powerful, weapon only stunning Ganondorf) saying that it can't. It's not a no-limits fallacy; it's taking the side with more evidence (the lore and the Light Arrows only stunning Ganondorf) and taking it as true.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Nerdicon

While the teleport may be slow, Lumas can turn into Launch Stars, which Rosalina could use to create the necessary gap.

Launch Stars launch you to other planets, so I don't think they'd be very useful here. Plus, Kirby could intercept the Star Bits with the Warp Star.

There's not much Kirby could do with Baton.

But there is. He can cause Rosalina to explode, and move her around telekinetically.

Lumas can still transform without Rosalina, and as I said earlier, Rosalina and the Lumas are immune to black holes since they can ignore gravity at will (they levitate constantly), but either way, the Lumas would be smart enough to not make a star or black hole next to Rosalina, and would instead aim for Kirby, who is busy controlling the opponent.

Kirby is immune to gravity on the Warp Star. Does that mean he's immune to black holes as well? And flying on the star, he could swat the Lumas with Rosalina.

Judging from the video you linked, the baton only moves the opponent where the baton moves, rather than actually performing mind control; you can hear the enemy screaming. Thus, she could use her teleport (which only takes a couple of seconds) to escape.

I don't think she could teleport when she's being twirled around like that. The enemy's mouth was probably open because of the beam shot at him. His arms were trapped. If they weren't, he would have flailed them, tried to grab his vehicle, shot them up, etc.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant unless you can prove that Baton Kirby affects invincible enemies, like Rosalina with a Starman.

Kirby just has to wait ten seconds. Not that big a deal. Considering the speed Kirby can run, he'd be able to dodge the Lumas if they chase him. And while the Starman blocks damage, the controlling beam doesn't do any damage. Kirby could keep Rosalina at bay for ten seconds, swatting the Lumas like I said above, and then blow her up when the time comes.

Lightning bolts only move at 224,000 mph. More importantly, Kirby could dodge those because Kracko always telegraphs his attack.

224,000 mph is still 3700 miles per second. Kirby could run to Rosie before she could so much think, punch her twice, she's dead. In the anime, Kirby dodged several, untelegraphed strikes. It's a contradiction on Kracko, but not Kirby's speed.

More later.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@ ShadowLBlue

I fully agree with your post up until the last paragraph. In the discussion on the subject I linked when I replied to Kirby Dragons, I brought up that Alvis refers to the Monado in the third person (i.e. "The Monado did this"), and I believe that it was brought up that "Monado" was the code name for some secret project that involved Alvis (which makes sense since he says "I am Monado" rather than "I am the Monado"). I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but it should be in that link (and if not, you should be able to find it if you search the thread for "Alvis").

The only time he holds the Monado is when he takes it from Shulk. Are you saying because he is capable of holding the Monado that he can't be the Monado?
I also don't see a difference between saying "I am the Monado" vs "I am Monado".
I'm not saying your wrong (right now), I just don't get your points.

The incredibly slow speed of the teleport, that's what.

As for baton, the laser at the beginning (which is pretty quick) gives him telekinetic control over the target. This goes through the shield as well as stalling out invincibility. What do I mean? Well if Rosalina's being telekinetically controlled she only moves based on the movement of the baton. If the Lumas try to do anything, Kirby can just move her into the black hole/star which would kill her too (not to mention Kirby could use one of five invincibility candies). Not to mention he doesn't toss the baton at the enemy, he throws the baton which causes the opponent to explode. Unless you have regenerative abilities comparable to Cell that'll destroy anyone.

So you're only claim that it goes through her shield is that you believe it's a laser correct? I don't believe that video is enough evidence that it's definitely "laser" and not some other type of energy. Also her teleport takes like 5 seconds, more than enough to teleport away while Kirby is waiting on his warp star to appear.

The legal definition of the burden of proof isn't the same as the one used in philosophy. The legal definition always presumes the accused is innocent until proven guilty. The philosophical kind is, "Whoever asserts must prove." I'm using evidence of absence as the basis for not accepting Ganondorf's extrapolated ability.

I only brought up the legal burden of proof because A) you brought up the court of law earlier B) everyone who frequently comes here (except you I guess) agreed if you're arguinging against lore you need a preponderance of evidence to say it's wrong. Even if we agreed to use the philosphical burden of proof, you still haven't proofed your assertion he can be hurt by non-holy attacks.

And about Link's earrings, there's a difference (in video games) between being in the presence of lava and actually being attacked by fire, so no lore is not wrong. It might not make sense logically, but video game logic =/= real world logic.

Well, the issue is that no matter what I say, you're going to say nothing can harm Ganondorf. Since we cannot ever see if the light beam would work on Ganondorf, but only work with elemental compatibility, it's honestly not fair to say, "Until we see a weapon like the light beam harm Ganondorf, we shouldn't assume that it could." But, continue with that no-limits fallacy. I'm honestly done here.

We're not saying since the weapon has never been used Ganon and it's not holy that it won't work. We're saying since it has a somewhat anagolous comparison (the light arrows) that doesn't kill him, why should Samus's light beam? It's no different than you claiming Samus would be immune to Earthquake just because some Space Pirates in a Prime game used a quake simulator that didn't hurt her.

Regardless, I don't see why you're so hung up on this one point. It'd be a shame for you to leave over this one point. We can't ever truly know some of these things, so we have to make compromises for simplicity's sake. Thus, with no evidence to the contrary, we're going with the idea all non-holy attacks can't hurt Ganondorf.

I think we're forgetting something really important here; Ness can abort you before you're even born. So he's clearly the winner here.

Explain?

Anyway, I'm making a tier list like I promised I would after finishing Xenoblade. The tournament is cool in all, but the point of this thread was making a tier list, at least imo. This list is ranked based on how many people they can beat. This is why someone may be ranked above a character who could beat them.
EDIT: After wayyyy too much time, here's my tier list. Feedback appreciated.
S tier

-This is based on assumption that he gets Star Rod, which I think he should get since so many other characters are getting items they only temporarily possessed. The Star Rod grants all wishes and only takes a few seconds to activate. He's quite durable, so I think he could get the wish off before even Sonic has time to turn Super and kill him. He asks for invincibility, then from there wishes his opponent dead. Or something like that.

Can turn into Super Sonic, which makes him able to move at light speed if need be. Also is nearly invincible, vulnerable only to mental attacks, and the strongest of attacks (in theory). But with 999,999 rings (thanks to Chao Garden according to Munomario) he'll last too long for the few people who could beat regular Sonic.

A tier
Unlimited ammo on many of her weapons, can can turn into a invincible, supersonic moving when she needs to go on defense (takes 1 second of running to activate.)
Composite Link, with access to equipment and items from all of his games. Chateau Romani gives 3 days of unlimited magic, which means he can use Magic Cape (makes him intangible and invulnerable) defensively while spamming his ice/fire rods and medallions. Also has 250k rupees to power his magic suit in the rare event his 3 days of magic depletes or if he wants to be more offensive (he can't use other magic items while using magic cape)
Lacks as much offense, as composite Link, and chataeu romani, but still has magic armor plus 250k rupees, which should let him outstall even Kirby.
multiple guards that grant near or total invincibility, the warp star moves at high speeds, hypernova swallows almost anything (albeit is a one time use skill), and has a variety of projectiles.
Access to all the powers (albeit with limited uses) from Uprising, the various light powers her staff provides, flight and the Palutena's Bow.

Can summon Lumas that turn into stars or black holes. Also has a near-impenetrable shield. Has access to one of every power-up from Super Mario 3D world.
Can't be killed by non-holy attacks, although he can be sealed/trapped in other dimension. As far as I know Kirby lacks holy attacks, but Palutena (being a god) and Rosalina (trap him in a black hole) have the edge over Ganondorf but not Kirby, thus Ganon being placed below someone he can beat. Ganondorf can turn invisible and intangible temporarily, fire magical balls, and wield 2 swords at once. As Ganon he can do the above except also wield a trident which shoots out lightning. Only thing Ganon can't do that Ganondorf can is float.


-Give Mewtwo the edge over Ness because although Ness can fully recover all HP for a tiny fraction of his total PP, and has a shield which halves damage while reflecting some, I believe Mewtwo can out last him by peppering him with his variety of specials. Mewtwo can put up a light screen (raises defense by 100%) and than copy either Ness's shield or healing move and out last him.

Tier B:

Can switch classes during battle to fit best situation. Best offense in general though is as a sorceror, where Aversa's Night guarantees she recovers health = 50% of damaged deal with each attack; the skill sol guarantees she gets 100% every other attack. Vantage (when she's under 50% health) acts like visions. Armsthrift makes her not need to worry about durability. Can change into a flier for evasion while attacking from up high with attacks. Changing into a general makes him a stone wall.
Tier C


w/vehicles. Barrel Roll can block even lasers. Below 64. Mario Bros because between their various invincibility granting items plus using Barry to reflect lasers, I think they could probably win. Unsure though.
Double team makes illusions that can boost his evasion by 300%, and going off the anime, these illusions can appear to attack. Then Charizard attacks with an AOE attack to catch MK from flying around too much. Flight gives it edge over other Pokemon.



Her parasol blocks almost any attack, she has access to Pixls that make untouchable and can reflect any attack, plus a bomb and hammer pixl, not to mention her power-ups fro 3D world.
immune to all non-projectiles attacks except from manaketes (dragons)
Visions are powerful but don't change his lack of a projectile.


I feel as MK's size and quick flying speed makes him hard to keep track of and gives him the ability to just fly around these 2 FE characters It'd be like trying to bat a giant fly with an 8 inch sword.
That his clown car can fly, plus has an indefinite amount of bombs, and he can breathe fire gives him edge over apes and most below him.

Yes his car is fast and but as far as I'm aware all it can do is ram into people, and he can't go too fast since the arena is only 10miles by 10 miles and he wouldn't want to crash into a wall...


Tier D

Lack of projectiles puts him below the apes.



Tier F:

 

[Crystanium]

224,000 mph is still 3700 miles per second.

3,700 miles per minute, actually. Take 224,000 miles per hour, divide that by 60 and you end up with 3,700 mi/min. Lightning would actually travel 62.22 miles per second (224,000 / 3,600), which is still pretty fast, but only 0.033% the speed of light.

 

[blue_flavored]

Explain?

Okay so in Earthbound, for Ness to defeat Giygas, the main baddie, he travels back in time to fight Giygas while he is in a weaker form. It is a popular gaming theory that Ness actually travels back in time to fight Giygas while he is still a fetus because of the look of the environment you travel through and the actual look of Giygas himself.

If you have never seen Game Theory before on YouTube I highly recommend it. Here is a video he did on Earthbound which includes the fetus aborting statement.
https://youtu.be/552iTUDwYb8

But yeah, Ness can kill you while you're still a fetus. That's hardcore.