Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

I agree elemental compatibility doesn't make sense because the qualities found in the light beam are not exactly the same as the light beam. They're only similar in that they're weapons of light, both have the property of solar energy, both are effective against dark creatures filled with hatred. Whether or not the light beam is sacred, I don't know. If the "light energy" was from the Light of Aether, then it might be sacred, simply because the Luminoth have a spiritual fixation towards it. It seems to be capable of giving life, as when U-Mos and other Luminoths say, "May the Light of Aether shine upon you", Samus' health is restored.

I do agree that we shouldn't go straight to elemental attributes, but it could be useful if A) it's said in lore or demonstrated in-game to be all-encompassing (i.e. in Pokemon where any water attack is super effective on a fire type) B) if real world logic says that it should (i.e. if someone blocks with a wooden shield, fire would burn it) or C) as a "last resort" to compare items from two series, if there's not much else to go on (i.e. Samus's Light Beam and the Light Arrow). Of course, this would all adhere to the same hierarchy as other evidence.

As for the Light Beam being sacred or not, I think it would only work if it was created by a god or something along those lines. That said, you've played more Metroid games than I have (as in any at all ), so you'd be able to answer that more than I would.

If we do this, though, then wouldn't that mean the barrier protecting Samus nullifies psychic as well?

If it's similar to Protect, then I don't see why not.

Not really. Kirby has a few neat feats. He can travel in space, which is about 3 K (270.15°C), and he can survive up to 174.82 gees for about a second, which is above 100 gees, the force at which brief human exposure survived a crash, according to Wikipedia - g-force. He's able to inhale at least up to 200 kg. using hypernova based on the Flowery Woods feat. I wouldn't always agree with Death Battles, though. Some are correct, others are not, like Link versus Cloud.

Yeah. While Death Battle makes references to canon, it commonly extrapolates things beyond it; thus, we should rely on in-game evidence, lore, etc. That said, I do still enjoy watching the episodes; it's just not a very reliable source of information in this discussion.

EDIT: Just saw those other replies, haha. I'll edit the post to include them soon. post a new message since Dryn replied and I won't be double posting anymore.

 

[Crystanium]

I do agree that we shouldn't go straight to elemental attributes, but it could be useful if A) it's said in lore or demonstrated in-game to be all-encompassing (i.e. in Pokemon where any water attack is super effective on a fire type) B) if real world logic says that it should (i.e. if someone blocks with a wooden shield, fire would burn it) or C) as a "last resort" to compare items from two series, if there's not much else to go on (i.e. Samus's Light Beam and the Light Arrow). Of course, this would all adhere to the same hierarchy as other evidence.

Well, I know not all things share the same properties. Photons are different from microwaves, though they both travel at the speed of light, both produce heat, but whereas photons can pass through Earth's atmosphere, microwaves cannot. Their wavelength also differs. Because they're both part of the electromagnetic wave doesn't mean they're the same. I understand this. I've brought this up with my wife before and she agrees.

 

[ccell]

Not really. Kirby has a few neat feats. He can travel in space, which is about 3 K (270.15°C), and he can survive up to 174.82 gees for about a second, which is above 100 gees, the force at which brief human exposure survived a crash, according to Wikipedia - g-force. He's able to inhale at least up to 200 kg. using hypernova based on the Flowery Woods feat. I wouldn't always agree with Death Battles, though. Some are correct, others are not, like Link versus Cloud.

You didn't watch the death battle did you

 

[Crystanium]

You didn't watch the death battle did you

I didn't. What's your point?

Edit: There, I watched it. Kirby would have been dead from the beginning. He lacks reaction time on part with Majinn Buu. He doesn't have any abilities that match Majin Buu's. Fighter Kirby might be close with striking strength. The star rod wasn't the cause of destruction for a portion of the Moon. Considering Kirby's galaxy may be different from our own, chance are it's not the same moon.

 

[Munomario777]

Edit
This article is taking too long. The idea of composite Link defeating Samus seems to be based around the idea of Link having Chateau milk to have magic that lasts for three days, the magic cape, and magic armor. ShadowLBlue seems to be like-minded in that Link can use the magic cape or magic armor at a time. This doesn't appear to be a game mechanic, considering it has happened in a few Zelda games like in OoT and MM.

I know Link has hidden skills to aid him in battle, and while a few techniques are capable of killing in a single blow or to get around armored opponents, they're dependent on the circumstances. For example, ending blow can be used at any time on an opponent who is knocked to the ground, regardless of its vitality. I don't believe this works on armored opponents. Link can roll behind his armored opponent, but this is required to strip the leather holding the armor in place. Samus does not have this.

Link has more hidden skills than Samus, but Samus was trained by the Chozo, a race known for its war-oriented past, as well as the Galactic Federation Army. A similar technique she has like ending blow is lethal strike. More powerful enemies will not die from this, but will receive more damage than normal. However, most enemies do die, regardless of the amount of health they have. Here's a video demonstrating Samus' techniques.

While some of Link's hidden skills may be a bit too situational, there are a few that could be utilized in this fight. First off, the Shield Attack can knock enemies off guard, even armored ones (!), creating a great opportunity for a counter attack. While the Ending Blow might not work on enemies with impenetrable defenses, that's because they're, well, impenetrable, even by standard means. Seeing as how Samus can get harmed by sharp objects such as spikes even in her Power Suit (ah, I remember that discussion...), a sword such as the Master Sword should be able to penetrate the Power Suit.

I am fine with Link possessing rings for added defense against electricity and fireballs. Here's my thoughts on these. The green holy ring protects Link from electricity. I don't know if this applies only to Link's mail or to his entire body. I will assume the latter. I also don't know how many watts, volts, or amps Link can withstand from this ring, so I decided that since this ring is found in OoA, I would look for enemies that produce electricity. Buzz Blob stands out among them all with the description from the Nintendo's Player Guide for LA, p. 95, which says, "Touch this critter with your Sword and you'll take enough volts to light up a small town." I typically disregard player guides because they're not canon. Let's consider it anyway because I'm not going to downplay Link.

The population of a small town is anywhere between 100,000 to 120,000 people. Let's work with 100,000 people, simply because it's the low-end and because it's simpler. Let's assume there are four people per househould: father, mother, son, and daughter. This means we're working with 25,000 houses. The average household uses 8,900 kilowatt-hours a year. Since I don't know how long this small town would be lit up, I thought a day would be worth considering. So, the average household in a day uses 24.72 kWh. I determined this by taking 8,900 kWh, divided it by 12, since there are twelve months in a year, and then divided that by 30, since thirty days is the average.

By taking the kWh used in a day and multiplying it by 25,000, I ended up with a total of 618,055.56 kWh used in a day in a small town. However, kWh is not the same as kilowatts. To find the amount of power used, I need to divide this by 24 hours, which gives us a total of 25,752.31 watts (26 kW). I realize that the player guide tells us the voltage, but I'm not certain as to how one can find the voltage if we don't know the amps. When it comes to houses, the focus mostly seems to be on kWh, not volts.

Nice calculations, but the in-game description for the Green Holy Ring is, quote, "no damage from electricity". Thus, any attacks that rely on electricity would be negated.

The blue holy ring protects Link from the river Zora's fireball. As I said concerning the green holy ring, whether or not this covers Link entirely, or if it's just applied to the mail, I don't know. I'll assume it covers him entirely. The temperature of the flame can be found using color temperature. In ALBW, the fireball has a vermilion exterior. (This is a much better example of the fireball, considering the updated graphics.) Using a color temperature chart I'd say 1,500 K (1,226°C) works.

That sounds good.

It's worth noting that in WW, the animation for when Link jumps into magma with the magic armor active is the same as if he wasn't wearing it. The difference is that he doesn't receive any damage. If he jumps against a pillar of magma, he'll simply get knocked back, but won't receive any damage. By the way, I decided that I'd give Link the mirror shield, simply because it protects Link against Twinrova's ice attack. The Hylian shield in SS protects Link from flames and electricity, but considering he has rings for these, I thought it'd make more sense for him to use the mirror shield. The only problem with the mirror shield is that it requires Link to actively block, whereas magic armor does not.

Hmm, interesting. So while Samus probably wouldn't be able to damage Link using heat attacks, he would still flinch or get knocked back. Another nice attribute of the Mirror Shield is that it reflects not only light, but also energy attacks (the in-game description reads, quote, "You found the Mirror Shield! The shield's polished surface can reflect light or energy."), so most (if not all) of Samus's beams would be reflected.

While Link is athletic, this does not tell me how fast he is on foot. Even with the Pegasus boots, which compares the speed to that of Pegasus himself. However, in MC, upon acquiring the Pegasus boots, it says, "You got the Pegasus Boots! Hold the button to run faster than the wind!" How fast is wind? Well, wind can travel slower than 1 m/s, but greater or equal to 32.6 m/s if we use Beufort's wind scale. It is interesting to note that my calculation from ALBW for the Pegasus boots is 79.28 mi/h, and this is amazingly close to 32.6 m/s, or 72.89 mi/h. So I would be quite fine working with 79.28 mi/h, especially considering it's faster than wind. Honestly, I am blown away by how uncannily close my calculation is!

Wow, that is pretty close.

Of course, another interpretation is that the description of the Pegasus boots is that Link can run supersonic speed. Here's why this interpretation could be possible. First, the description about the magic cape says Link turns invisible, yet he's also unharmed by enemies and spikes. If it protect Link from being harmed by enemies, then it could be interpreted as enemies not knowing where Link is, so their attacks would be for naught. However, considering Link can walk on spikes, this suggests that invisibility was conflated with intangibility. This seems to be a common way of thinking.

In Paper Mario, Lady Bow's ability, "Outta Sight", not only prevents enemy attack, but makes Mario intangible as well. This can be seen when projectiles are fired at Mario, whether in battle or not. It'll pass through him. This may be the same for Link's Pegasus boots. Perhaps "wind" was conflated with "sound", so Link ends up being able to run faster than sound.

I don't think we should assume they mistook sound for wind just because they mistook intangibility for invisibility (which is much more common, at least to my knowledge).

In ALttP, Link can outrun his own arrow if he uses the Pegasus boots. Assuming the arrow flies 200 mi/h, the fact that Link can catch up and outrun his arrow would mean he's running faster than 200 mi/h. However, 200 mi/h seems to be the speed of today's bows and arrows.

Link's arrows use wood, not carbon, so they would travel slower by comparison. Even so, there is no indication of a sonic boom, nor a sound effect to indicate this, either. And no, it shouldn't even be argued that it's due to game limitations. ALBW has such a powerful engine to produce beautiful colors, characters, and locations. Nintendo put time into the sound effects and the dust behind Link's feet. There's no reason a sonic boom couldn't be designed into the game.

Good point as far as the bow goes. I don't think a lack of a sonic boom means that the character isn't moving at supersonic speeds, but I agree that Link hasn't been proven to run at that speed.

I had my brother test to see if Link can outrun his arrows in ALBW, but the arrow leaves the screen and there's a bit of lag before Link can use the Pegasus boots, so there's no exact way of determining whether or not "faster than wind" was being conflated with "faster than sound". Hurricane wind speeds can reach higher than 72.89 mi/h, at least near or up to 200 mi/h. Honestly, though, I'm not sure how high Link's speed would be, but I do like the closeness of my calculation with that of one form of a hurricane speed.

Along with the Pegasus boots, Link would have the bunny hood. Zeldapedia states that the bunny hood increases Link's speed by 68%, but I don't know where this comes from. Even so, let's work with it for fun. So if the Pegasus boots allows Link to run 79.28 mi/h, then an additional 68% would mean that Link's top speed would be 133.19 mi/h. This ends my thoughts on Link's speed.

Sounds good.

With all this in mind, here's what I see can happen. Link can choose to use his magic armor or magic cape first. If Link uses his magic armor, I don't think he'll be safe. Here's why. My previous argument about the wave beam was that it fired radio waves. I was wrong. X-rays produce high frequencies and this makes sense for Samus to use the nova beam in conjunction with the x-ray visor. This was based on the fact that the nova beam in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption fired "high-frequency beams". The wave, light, and nova beam all share the same design in the Metroid Prime trilogy. Light is also part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Therefore, the wave beam is probably firing an electromagnetic wave of some sort. This would mean that the wave beam travels at the speed of light.

What is more, the information about the plasma beam from the official Metroid Fusion Web site says that the plasma beam fires three lasers. Lasers can produce plasma because the air would be rapidly heated and ionized as a result. This would mean the plasma beam is using a laser-induced plasma channel. However, when this happens, the laser creates what is called "blooming", which takes away the laser's focus, making it weaker. Fortunately, visual evidence tells us something else about the plasma beam. The plasma beam as portrayed in MOM is always associated with an electrical discharge. I interpret this as the an electrical discharge traveling the plasma channel to hit the target.

What does this mean? Well, the plasma beam is pretty much an electrolaser. Technically, Samus is firing lightning out of her arm cannon. Yes, lightning also uses a plasma channel. It is natural plasma itself. If the discharge from an electrolaser is the same speed as that of lightning, then that means it should be traveling 224,000 mi/h. The plasma beam can be prevented by Ridley when he creates a barrier of his own during the battle, as well as the Queen Metroid by her hardy skin alone, so the plasma beam isn't able to penetrate all things.

Mmmhmm.

While the barrier Ridley creates in battle reflects Samus' beam weapons, we do not know if this would apply with Link as well. We do not know the nature of the barrier Ridley creates, but there is another enemy in MOM called Fumbleye, who has a force field protecting it from Samus' beam attacks. Thanks to Metroid Database, their translation for Fumbleye tells us, "Monster is resistant to strong hits, so beams are ineffective (barrier)." The parentheses with the word "barrier" seems to be there to tell us that this is the reason Fumbleye is resistant to strong hits.

Do you know of any images, videos, etc. of Ridley's barrier? If so, we might be able to analyze it to possibly determine the nature of it.

However, the wave beam passes through Fumbleye's barrier, thus ignoring his resistance to strong hits. The wave beam is also capable of piercing through FG-1,000s when she acquires the wave beam, even though previous beams would not have worked on them, due to the metal barrier that protects their turrets from damage. So while MOM tells us that the wave beam can pass through transparent and translucent objects, it still retains the ability to pass through solid objects as well.

Hmm, interesting.

While the holy green ring should protect Link from electricity, we can only go with the amount of wattage produced by buzz blobs. Lightning alone produces at least one terawatt in a matter of 30 microseconds. One terawatt is 1.0 * 10^12 watts. The amount of watts from what I found produced by buzz blobs is only 2.575231 * 10^4 watts. To avoid any confusion for those who do not understand scientific notations, one terawatt is one trillion watts. What Link has only demonstrated to be resistant against is twenty-six-thousand watts. Notice the huge gap in the order of magnitude.

While that is a significant gap, the in-game description states that it protects against all electrical attacks. So Link would be fine (not to mention the Mirror Shield's ability to reflect all energy attacks).

Link's magic armor is transparent, meaning the wave beam should be able to pass through. Not only does the wave beam allow Samus' beams to pass through, but the effects associated with them also pass through. This would mean that for every shot fired, the wave beam allows the ice and plasma beam to pass through, making the beam a devastating attack against Link. Again, the amount of watts and temperature Link can withstand is stated above. Considering Samus' beams surpass these, magic armor is probably not the best method Link should use.

See above.

I know that the mirror shield can protect Link from Twinrova's ice attack, but Link can still be frozen if he come in contact with the frozen floor. Worse still for Link is Samus' diffusion beam, which causes the ice beam to cover a wide area, as can be seen here. Therefore, I don't think the magic armor is going to protect Link. Even if it could protect him from the beams, Ridley's barrier, which can reflect the beams is still vulnerable to a super missile.

The Mirror Shield and the Magic Armor are two different methods of protection. Obviously the Mirror Shield won't protect Link from walking on the icy floor, since he doesn't hold the Mirror Shield underneath his feet as he walks. As for the Super Missiles and such, as I said in the past, just because one character's defensive techniques block/are vulnerable to an attack doesn't mean that it applies for other characters.

Next is Link's option to use the magic cape to render himself invisible. Samus' initial reaction would likely be using the x-ray scope. The reason is because Samus has fought enemies capable of rendering themselves invisible, such as Chozo ghosts, the Omega Pirate, and even Metroid Prime. While the idea of intangibility might be associated with Link because he can walk on spikes, he is incapable of passing through walls, so this contradicts Link's intangibility. Maybe the cape allows Link to levitate?

Hmm, I'm not quite sure. Have we seen spikes on walls or something to that effect in a game with the Magic Cape? My theory is that it just negates damage and has a similar effect to the Magic Armor.

Anyway, Samus will just use her x-ray scope for the duration needed in battle, just as she does against the Chozo ghosts and Metroid Prime. Even if Link gets close, I'm not sure how he's supposed to hit someone who can react to objects and attacks traveling supersonic speeds. Arrows of any kind won't be useful in battle, either, considering they're not even close to the speed of sound. So I don't see Link winning against Samus, though in his composite form, he'll be able to defeat a lot of his opponents on the roster.

When did Samus react to objects approaching at supersonic speeds?
Anyway, here are some things about Link that you didn't mention.

• First off, it should be noted that Link is very durable. Even without the various damage reduction upgrades, he can have up to twenty Heart Containers in his possession. This is the largest amount of Heart Containers present in one game, as well as the most consistent (this amount is used in eight games). While damage obviously varies from attack to attack, the most Link takes from an attack is usually one (sometimes two, if I'm not mistaken) Hearts. Thus, Link could take quite a few attacks from Samus before being knocked out (assuming they do get past his defenses of course), especially when combined with his defensive upgrades.
• If Link does get knocked out, he has another chance in the form of the Fairy. This restores some of Link's health automatically when he runs out (and some of his magic as well IIRC, but the Chateau Romani would probably still be in effect anyways). Not only would this extend Link's endurance even further, but it could also catch Samus off guard, since she would consider Link defeated and walk away. This is the perfect opportunity for a counter attack from Link.
• He can slow down time with the Inverted Song of Time, teleport with Farore's Wind, and such, allowing him to escape some tricky situations.
• A ton of other stuff that I'm probably forgetting.

I wouldn't call a torture device traditional, especially since one's never appeared in a Mario game. And he could have wished for a sword, but he has claws and has no experience with a sword. Traditional way meant just defeat him in battle by enhancing his own abilities.

Meh, fine. He could have wished for something to help him out besides a barrier that doesn't work and a few new attacks, though.

But it's not tied into the plot, as you've said yourself you're speculating. It's actually similar to Drynn's argument that since we've never Ganondorf attacked by a variety of non-holy attacks that we can't say he's immune to them. You're saying since he used a wish granting object (with no stated or implied in game restrictions) to win that it clearly must be limited on it's own.

It's tied to the plot in that, in the plot, the Power Platform gave the Star Rod more abilities. I'm not saying that Bowser using a wish-granting object means that it's limited. I'm saying that, combined with how we can clearly see it gain abilities as it's powered, that detail now seems to support the theory.

Bowser's not that smart. He's not an idiot but he's typically not smart. There's a reason he tends to get one-upped by other villains in these games.

If you steal an object that can grant any wish specifically to use it for that purpose, even if you're an idiot, you should still have the common sense to use the most powerful weapon in the universe that you now have at your disposal.

I'd also like to point out he did, do something once Mario showed up; he repeated the same strategy that won him his first battle, but unfortunately for him Mario had the Star Beam. And Before you ask "well why didn't he use it after he lost?" It's because he (more specifically Kammy) had a back-up plan that involved boosting the Star Rod's power.

Then why didn't he wish for something after that back-up plan failed? If I'm not mistaken, Mario uses the Peach Beam multiple times to remove Bowser's protection; you'd think he'd get the idea by then.

False, he didn't wish for buffs. All the buffs he (and the Star Rod) received were courtesy of Kammy Koopa. As I said, the buffs came from Kammy Koopa via the Power Platform. In-game quote from Kammy:
"Bleah nyeah heh hee ha heh!! You fell right into our trap! And you call yourself a hero?! Did you think we were foolish enough to just sit back and watch as you saved the Star Spirits? I've put together a little surprise for you...a device that increases Bowser's power! King Bowser will be so powerful that not even the power of the Star Spirits can compare! He'll now truly be invincible... ...thanks to my wisdom! Are you ready, my King? Then power up!!"
After which she raises her wand into the air and activates the power-up.

Ah. Still, the Power Platform's power did also increase the Star Rod's power alongside Bowser himself, and if I'm not mistaken Bowser does wish for more; his attacks are much more diverse in the final boss compared to the first time he's fought.

I actually addressed all of this in my post that you quoted, so rather than repeat myself (I'll nicely) I'll ask you to go back and re-read it.

You said "I also want to point out that only 2 aspects of the Star Rod were boosted, attack power and healing" in your post, so I addressed the other aspect, that being the protective barrier.

Also false, he has that in the prologue, it's what he uses to knock Mario out of the castle.

Ah. Still, the wishing power is increased, since he can now wish for more powerful attacks.

It's stated multiple times in game they only (selectively) grant the people's wishes. Considering Stars get their energy from wishes (stated in-game), they wouldn't need the Star Rod for power. Not to mention if you look at Star Haven there's nothing to be "powered" like appliances or street lights.

What do you mean by "selectively"? Do they only grant wishes made by certain people, or do you mean something else? Stars may get their energy from wishes, but they can't grant their own, can they? Thus, the Star Rod would be very beneficial to them, allowing them to grant any wish for themselves, rather than only for others. Why would it matter if there's nothing that needs to be powered (at least by electricity) in Star Haven?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I don't think we could compare Protect to the Magic Armor. The Magic Armor creates more of a barrier, while Protect creates more of a forcefield, and both have their own rulings.
When activated, a magical barrier will cover Link protecting him from any damage, similar to Nayru's Love.
It protects Link from damage. Mind controlling isn't damage, so it isn't blocked. We should only use Protect to compare to things that don't have rulings, like Rosalina's forcefield.
The Magic Armor and the Barrier/Light Screen both have equal rulings. They both provide coats to their users that protect them from damage. Mewtwo's non-damaging moves work normally on those using Barrier or Light Screen, while damage is decreased because of those moves.

Now analyzing the recent debates in this thread, Shulk getting the Monado with Alvis is the only one we've really settled, and the conclusion is that he gets it. We still have:

• Rosalina vs Kirby
• Samus vs Link
• Mewtwo vs Link
• Power of the Star Rod

I should note that if Mewtwo wins, Samus doesn't even have to face Link.

• Except we don't see him do that.
• I don't see your point here. You just said that the hammer takes away all of the enemy's health, but only one portion of Rosalina's health. Why does this not apply to the explosions?
• Haha, it kinda does actually. Anyway, it means approximately (~) equal to (=) OR (/) greater than (>).

• We see him take control of something that's about 10 inches tall. He could take control of the 10 inches of Rosalina's body around her heart, and cause it to explode.
• Starmen don't stop anything that can OHKO regular Rosalina. If Kirby made regular Rosalina explode, it would kill her, because it would blast apart her body, and the fire would damage her internal organs.
  
• I still don't understand what this means, so I'll just ignore this.

The force field is a rather right fit, and Link could still attack Mewtwo either way. How would Mewtwo suffocate both of them? If Mewtwo kills himself in the process, he's still not walking away, and he doesn't win.

Link might be able to still attack, but it wouldn't put Mewtwo down for the count before both of them die. Mewtwo would suffocate both of them because there's no air for them to breathe. You said that if it's a tie, the combatant with the advantage would win. Mewtwo was the one who actually killed his opponent, so he would win.

When is it shown that UFO Kirby is immune to black holes? Kirby with Invincibility Candy is still affected by gravity, so he is still sucked in by the black hole.

We haven't seen UFO Kirby near a black hole, so that's where real-life science applies. He's immune to gravity, so he's immune to black holes.

And Link could pick up the item again with the Hookshot, the Clawshot, etc.

I'm pretty sure one of those swaps Link with whatever he grabs, so Link would just end up under Mewtwo's foot or in his hand. If Link takes the item back, then Mewtwo could take it back. He could take the chain as well. Or, Mewtwo could use TK to redirect the chain.

Except, again, he would already be inside a star or a black hole by then.

UFO Kirby is immune to black holes. A star would kill Rosalina too, and wouldn't take effect if Kirby uses a lollipop, lasting longer than Rosalina's Starman.

...if he wasn't already in a black hole or a star by that point.

Crash or Mike would vaporize any Lumas that get near Kirby. They travel at the speed of light and speed of sound respectively, so they would be unleashed before the Lumas could do anything anyways. Then the Luma becomes a star, Kirby and Rosalina are protected with their invincibility items, Rosalina's runs out first, and she dies.

I've proven one way Kirby can kill Rosalina, with a star.

 

[Nerdicon]

I think one major factor decides the whole Rosalina vs Kirby debacle, Invincibility Candies. While Rosalina has one 10-11 second invincibility star, Kirby can have up to five 13-14 second invincibility candies. With this Kirby could do a number of things such as:

• Swallow and shoot the black holes crowding the arena via hypernova
• Go UFO and use the fully charged laser
• Use Baton and throw Rosalina into a black hole (or blow her up, either works)
• Get close and use any Light or Sound based attack

I've also seen a few misconceptions and things I don't agree with.
Just because something can hover doesn't mean that it's immune to gravity, if something has mass than it can be affected by gravity. If they hover that just means the lift generated by their hovering ability is stronger than gravity. Since a black hole can suck in even light, nothing can escape it's pull.
Lumas don't turn into stars when killed, they turn into stardust. The quote I believe you're thinking of is this one said by Rosalina at the end of SMG:
"Do you hear the baby stars? These newborns will grow up to become galaxies someday. When stars die, they turn to stardust and scatter across the cosmos. Eventually, that stardust reforms to create a new star... And so the cycle of life continues. But the cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way.... So...you'll see."
Baton Kirby's "beam" can be thought of as force rather than energy, it is what gives him telekinetic control over the target. Similarly, the target seems to explode not get caught in an explosion which are two very different things. If someone puts up a shield of some sort they'll still die as the explosion goes from the inside out.
Hypernova seems to spit out what it swallows, such as in the Queen Sectonia boss fight where her giant laser was redirected.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't think we could compare Protect to the Magic Armor. The Magic Armor creates more of a barrier, while Protect creates more of a forcefield, and both have their own rulings.
When activated, a magical barrier will cover Link protecting him from any damage, similar to Nayru's Love.

What exactly makes a force field functionally different from a Protect-type barrier, and what makes Protect a barrier while the Magic Armor is still categorized as a force field?

It protects Link from damage. Mind controlling isn't damage, so it isn't blocked. We should only use Protect to compare to things that don't have rulings, like Rosalina's forcefield.
The Magic Armor and the Barrier/Light Screen both have equal rulings. They both provide coats to their users that protect them from damage. Mewtwo's non-damaging moves work normally on those using Barrier or Light Screen, while damage is decreased because of those moves.

In Pokemon, Protect blocks all effects from all but a few select moves (including non-damaging ones), such damage, poison, etc.

Now analyzing the recent debates in this thread, Shulk getting the Monado with Alvis is the only one we've really settled, and the conclusion is that he gets it.

Wait, wait, wait. When was it concluded that Shulk gets Alvis exactly?

We still have:

• Rosalina vs Kirby
• Samus vs Link
• Mewtwo vs Link
• Power of the Star Rod

I should note that if Mewtwo wins, Samus doesn't even have to face Link.

True, but that's a rather big "if".

• We see him take control of something that's about 10 inches tall. He could take control of the 10 inches of Rosalina's body around her heart, and cause it to explode.
• Starmen don't stop anything that can OHKO regular Rosalina. If Kirby made regular Rosalina explode, it would kill her, because it would blast apart her body, and the fire would damage her internal organs.
  
• I still don't understand what this means, so I'll just ignore this.

• Except the area around Rosalina's heart is behind the rest of her torso, and not out in the open. Plus, didn't you say that it wouldn't go through the force field, making this entire tangent rather pointless?
• If it even gets to her in the first place; see above.
• M'kay.

Link might be able to still attack, but it wouldn't put Mewtwo down for the count before both of them die. Mewtwo would suffocate both of them because there's no air for them to breathe. You said that if it's a tie, the combatant with the advantage would win. Mewtwo was the one who actually killed his opponent, so he would win.

Except the Zora Ring allows Link to hold his breath indefinitely (he can dive without coming up for air).

We haven't seen UFO Kirby near a black hole, so that's where real-life science applies. He's immune to gravity, so he's immune to black holes.

As @Dryn pointed out, just because UFO Kirby can hover doesn't mean that he is immune to black holes.

I'm pretty sure one of those swaps Link with whatever he grabs, so Link would just end up under Mewtwo's foot or in his hand. If Link takes the item back, then Mewtwo could take it back. He could take the chain as well. Or, Mewtwo could use TK to redirect the chain.

Actually, the Hookshot (and I believe the Clawshots as well, but I haven't played those games) will pull an item to Link's current position and into its hands. If Mewtwo takes the item back, Link simply takes it back again. If Mewtwo takes the Hookshot, he uses the Clawshot to retrieve it (or vice versa). If Mewtwo redirects the chain, Link uses the other Clawshot (he has two in addition to the Hookshot) to retrieve the item while Mewtwo is busy with the other one.

Not to mention that the Magic Armor would block the attack in the first place.

UFO Kirby is immune to black holes. A star would kill Rosalina too, and wouldn't take effect if Kirby uses a lollipop, lasting longer than Rosalina's Starman.

When has UFO Kirby survived an actual black hole (not those things that Marx has)? The Invincibility Candy doesn't protect Kirby from lava, correct? Because a star is hotter than lava, especially at the core (where Kirby would be if he caused one to transform).

Crash or Mike would vaporize any Lumas that get near Kirby. They travel at the speed of light and speed of sound respectively, so they would be unleashed before the Lumas could do anything anyways. Then the Luma becomes a star, Kirby and Rosalina are protected with their invincibility items, Rosalina's runs out first, and she dies.

Except Crash and Mike have limited uses. Kirby's invincibility item would not work for reasons stated above.

I've proven one way Kirby can kill Rosalina, with a star.

And I've disproven it.

I think one major factor decides the whole Rosalina vs Kirby debacle, Invincibility Candies. While Rosalina has one 10-11 second invincibility star, Kirby can have up to five 13-14 second invincibility candies.

...which don't protect him from a star or getting pulled into a black hole (and then being ripped apart when the candy runs out).

With this Kirby could do a number of things such as:

• Swallow and shoot the black holes crowding the arena via hypernova
• Go UFO and use the fully charged laser
• Use Baton and throw Rosalina into a black hole (or blow her up, either works)
• Get close and use any Light or Sound based attack

• Kirby would be the one getting sucked in, since Hypernova Kirby is still affected by gravity and thus is pulled into the black hole. I address this later on.
• Unless Rosalina uses a black hole or other attack.
• Unless she shields.
• Unless Rosalina kills him first.

I've also seen a few misconceptions and things I don't agree with.
Just because something can hover doesn't mean that it's immune to gravity, if something has mass than it can be affected by gravity. If they hover that just means the lift generated by their hovering ability is stronger than gravity. Since a black hole can suck in even light, nothing can escape it's pull.

Agreed.

Lumas don't turn into stars when killed, they turn into stardust. The quote I believe you're thinking of is this one said by Rosalina at the end of SMG:
"Do you hear the baby stars? These newborns will grow up to become galaxies someday. When stars die, they turn to stardust and scatter across the cosmos. Eventually, that stardust reforms to create a new star... And so the cycle of life continues. But the cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way.... So...you'll see."

Ah, I see. Still, the stardust does become a star, and with less room to scatter (ten miles as opposed to space), it would likely clump together sooner. Regardless, black holes are the superior option anyways for killing Kirby.

Baton Kirby's "beam" can be thought of as force rather than energy, it is what gives him telekinetic control over the target. Similarly, the target seems to explode not get caught in an explosion which are two very different things. If someone puts up a shield of some sort they'll still die as the explosion goes from the inside out.

If Rosalina shields the initial beam (or dodges it, or uses a black hole to redirect it, or just kills Kirby first), then this would not occur.

Hypernova seems to spit out what it swallows, such as in the Queen Sectonia boss fight where her giant laser was redirected.

Again, in the video, I see platforms, leaves, and such going in. However, I see a beam of hearts and stars coming out. If Hypernova Kirby inhales a black hole (which wouldn't happen in the first place since black hole pulling power > Hypernova pulling power), he's not spitting one back out.

 

[Nerdicon]

My responses are in italics

I think one major factor decides the whole Rosalina vs Kirby debacle, Invincibility Candies. While Rosalina has one 10-11 second invincibility star, Kirby can have up to five 13-14 second invincibility candies.
...which don't protect him from a star or getting pulled into a black hole (and then being ripped apart when the candy runs out).
If he gets sucked into the black hole he can inhale the singularity (which is near microscopic) with Hypernova and spit it out.
With this Kirby could do a number of things such as:

• Swallow and shoot the black holes crowding the arena via hypernova
• Go UFO and use the fully charged laser
• Use Baton and throw Rosalina into a black hole (or blow her up, either works)
• Get close and use any Light or Sound based attack

• Kirby would be the one getting sucked in, since Hypernova Kirby is still affected by gravity and thus is pulled into the black hole. I address this later on.

So? If he's invincible that doesn't matter, the black hole still gets inhaled

• Unless Rosalina uses a black hole or other attack.

What part of invincible are we not getting here?

• Unless she shields.

Didn't I specifically explain why this isn't the case further down?

• Unless Rosalina kills him first.

Again, invincible.
I've also seen a few misconceptions and things I don't agree with.
Just because something can hover doesn't mean that it's immune to gravity, if something has mass than it can be affected by gravity. If they hover that just means the lift generated by their hovering ability is stronger than gravity. Since a black hole can suck in even light, nothing can escape it's pull.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Which mean Rosalina better think before attacking before she kills a majority of her forces or herself
Lumas don't turn into stars when killed, they turn into stardust. The quote I believe you're thinking of is this one said by Rosalina at the end of SMG:
"Do you hear the baby stars? These newborns will grow up to become galaxies someday. When stars die, they turn to stardust and scatter across the cosmos. Eventually, that stardust reforms to create a new star... And so the cycle of life continues. But the cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way.... So...you'll see."
Click to expand...
Ah, I see. Still, the stardust does become a star, and with less room to scatter (ten miles as opposed to space), it would likely clump together sooner. Regardless, black holes are the superior option anyways for killing Kirby.
This isn't really how stardust works, it takes thousands of years for a star to form like this, there might not be enough material to work with.

Baton Kirby's "beam" can be thought of as force rather than energy, it is what gives him telekinetic control over the target. Similarly, the target seems to explode not get caught in an explosion which are two very different things. If someone puts up a shield of some sort they'll still die as the explosion goes from the inside out.
Click to expand...​

If Rosalina shields the initial beam (or dodges it, or uses a black hole to redirect it, or just kills Kirby first), then this would not occur.
Did you read the post? If the beam hits the shield then Kirby has control over the shield and by extension everything inside of it. So shielding the beam is literally pointless

Hypernova seems to spit out what it swallows, such as in the Queen Sectonia boss fight where her giant laser was redirected.
Click to expand...​

Again, in the video, I see platforms, leaves, and such going in. However, I see a beam of hearts and stars coming out. If Hypernova Kirby inhales a black hole (which wouldn't happen in the first place since black hole pulling power > Hypernova pulling power), he's not spitting one back out.
Really? Because I see platforms, leaves, and A GIANT DEATH LASER go in, and I see stars, petals (from queen sectonia), and a GIANT DEATH LASER come out. As for the black hole's strength, that doesn't matter. It's not pushing away from Kirby it's pulling Kirby in so (while invincible) he could just swallow one and spit it out at Rosalina who would die as her invincibility option has been shown to be counteracted by black holes. And no it wouldn't do recoil when getting spat out, else Kirby would've roasted his non-existent lips when redirecting the laser

 

[Crystanium]

While some of Link's hidden skills may be a bit too situational, there are a few that could be utilized in this fight. First off, the Shield Attack can knock enemies off guard, even armored ones (!), creating a great opportunity for a counter attack. While the Ending Blow might not work on enemies with impenetrable defenses, that's because they're, well, impenetrable, even by standard means. Seeing as how Samus can get harmed by sharp objects such as spikes even in her Power Suit (ah, I remember that discussion...), a sword such as the Master Sword should be able to penetrate the Power Suit.

The master sword doesn't affect darknuts. Link has to find another way to knock the darknut's armor off. Darknuts are protected with plate armor, presumably made of steel. Stated here, we read that plate armor "was virtually invulnerable to sword slashes. It also protected the wearer well against spear or pike thrusts and provided decent defense against blunt trauma." So the striking strength is under what is required to deform or fracture steel.

Nice calculations, but the in-game description for the Green Holy Ring is, quote, "no damage from electricity". Thus, any attacks that rely on electricity would be negated.

Veran is the only person I'm aware of who can create lightning, but I cannot find a video where Veran actually uses her lightning attacks against Link. If she uses this during one of her forms, then I suppose not even the plasma beam would harm Link. If not, I don't see why that description should be taken prima facie. The gravity suit normalizes extreme gravity and protects Samus from magma, but I don't assume that it protects her from the gravity from Sagittarius A*, nor higher temperatures. Let's not extrapolate.

Hmm, interesting. So while Samus probably wouldn't be able to damage Link using heat attacks, he would still flinch or get knocked back. Another nice attribute of the Mirror Shield is that it reflects not only light, but also energy attacks (the in-game description reads, quote, "You found the Mirror Shield! The shield's polished surface can reflect light or energy."), so most (if not all) of Samus's beams would be reflected.

We don't know the amount of heat Link can withstand. I went with what we can observe. Anything beyond that is an assumption. As I stated before, if the power bombs are thermobaric weapons, then they should reach up to 3,000°C.

Good point as far as the bow goes. I don't think a lack of a sonic boom means that the character isn't moving at supersonic speeds, but I agree that Link hasn't been proven to run at that speed.

Well, due to the graphical improvements over time, I don't see why it should be assumed at supersonic.

Do you know of any images, videos, etc. of Ridley's barrier? If so, we might be able to analyze it to possibly determine the nature of it.

Here you go. It's after lethal strike is performed on Ridley.

While that is a significant gap, the in-game description states that it protects against all electrical attacks. So Link would be fine (not to mention the Mirror Shield's ability to reflect all energy attacks).

Not all electrical attacks. It's a rather general statement. However, if Veran does strike Link during battle, then yes, Link would be immune to Samus' plasma beam. You cannot assume that the mirror shield reflects all energy attacks, either. You'd need to prove that. Last I checked, Link still is harmed by the beam from beamos. Not to mention, the mirror shield cannot tolerate both heat and cold. In the battle against Twinrova, if Link absorbs one elemental attack like the flame, and then if he tries to absorb the ice, he'll take damage. Same happens if the method is reversed. Link must absorb one or the other three times.

The Mirror Shield and the Magic Armor are two different methods of protection. Obviously the Mirror Shield won't protect Link from walking on the icy floor, since he doesn't hold the Mirror Shield underneath his feet as he walks. As for the Super Missiles and such, as I said in the past, just because one character's defensive techniques block/are vulnerable to an attack doesn't mean that it applies for other characters.

I know they're two different methods of protection. However, since the effects of the other beams combine with the wave beam, Link's going to end up frozen. Super missiles are pretty powerful. With the barrier, Ridley still gets knocked back, and he's much larger and heavier than Link. Super missiles causes a quake. This is seen in Super Metroid, Metroid: Other M, and Metroid Fusion. MF has a more noticeable effect. When Samus is going down an elevator to the Main Sector, she feels the quake caused by SA-X's super missile.

The description for the Richter magnitude scale concerning a magnitude of 4.0 to 4.9 says, "Noticeable shaking of indoor objects and rattling noises. Felt by most people in the affected area. Slightly felt outside. Generally causes none to minimal damage. Moderate to significant damage very unlikely. Some objects may fall off shelves or be knocked over." In SM, creatures that craw on walls and ceilings will fall. For a magnitude of 4.0, that's equal to 63 gigajoules, or 15 tons of TNT. I doubt this is the amount of energy, though. Of course, that would seem to fit the description. Still, if we went with 2 gigajoules, or 478 kilograms of TNT. Not only that, but in MOM, Samus' seeker missile allows her to fire one super missile along with four regular missiles. How much energy can the magic armor withstand?

Hmm, I'm not quite sure. Have we seen spikes on walls or something to that effect in a game with the Magic Cape? My theory is that it just negates damage and has a similar effect to the Magic Armor.

I think it's only on the ground. To reconcile why Link cannot pass through walls, but won't receive damage from spiked floors is that Link levitates. This is merely conjecture, but the contradiction demands an explanation.

When did Samus react to objects approaching at supersonic speeds?

She needs to be able to turn or stop while traveling at supersonic speeds. In the battle against the Alpha Blogg, this mini-boss fires sonic waves at Samus. In water, sound travels faster than 343 m/s. In fresh water, sound travels 1,497 m/s, or 4.36 times faster than sound. Samus can dodge this. Then there's the battle before fighting Gandrayda where Samus isn't even looking and dodges Gandrayda's firearm at point-blank.

First off, it should be noted that Link is very durable. Even without the various damage reduction upgrades, he can have up to twenty Heart Containers in his possession. This is the largest amount of Heart Containers present in one game, as well as the most consistent (this amount is used in eight games). While damage obviously varies from attack to attack, the most Link takes from an attack is usually one (sometimes two, if I'm not mistaken) Hearts. Thus, Link could take quite a few attacks from Samus before being knocked out (assuming they do get past his defenses of course), especially when combined with his defensive upgrades.

I've already pointed out my interpretation of heart containers. They're defined as "life energy". A better description is offered from Hyrule Historia, though. In Japanese, it's referred to as "force", "the sacred power the gods gave to the world. It's the breath of life itself." (p. 75) So surprisingly, this is something I've been describing the heart containers as before Hyrule Historia was released.

If Link does get knocked out, he has another chance in the form of the Fairy. This restores some of Link's health automatically when he runs out (and some of his magic as well IIRC, but the Chateau Romani would probably still be in effect anyways). Not only would this extend Link's endurance even further, but it could also catch Samus off guard, since she would consider Link defeated and walk away. This is the perfect opportunity for a counter attack from Link.

Fairies would be outside help. How much damage do you think fairies can restore anyway?

He can slow down time with the Inverted Song of Time, teleport with Farore's Wind, and such, allowing him to escape some tricky situations.

Inverted Song of Time only works on those who are on a schedule, which means a lot of people in the Clock Town slow down. Enemies and bosses are not affected because they're not working on a schedule. Besides, using an ocarina would take time, as would Farore's wind.

 

[Munomario777]

My responses are in italics

If he gets sucked into the black hole he can inhale the singularity (which is near microscopic) with Hypernova and spit it out.

Except he's getting torn apart by the black hole.

So? If he's invincible that doesn't matter, the black hole still gets inhaled

And now it's inside of him, and will pull him apart from the inside (if the invincibility somehow protects him from that, then what I'll expand on below applies).

What part of invincible are we not getting here?

What part of "affected by gravity" are we not getting here?

Didn't I specifically explain why this isn't the case further down?

No, but you did in the post I'm currently replying to.

Again, invincible.

Again, affected by gravity and can't escape a black hole.

Which mean Rosalina better think before attacking before she kills a majority of her forces or herself

And she will. Losing a few Lumas isn't really a big deal, and Rosalina would keep her distance.

This isn't really how stardust works, it takes thousands of years for a star to form like this, there might not be enough material to work with.

Fair enough.

Did you read the post? If the beam hits the shield then Kirby has control over the shield and by extension everything inside of it. So shielding the beam is literally pointless

And Rosalina is using a Starman at this point, so the shield exploding doesn't harm her (alternatively, she could teleport out). Meanwhile, she's still free to deploy Luma black holes while Kirby is busy twirling his wand.

R

eally? Because I see platforms, leaves, and A GIANT DEATH LASER go in, and I see stars, petals (from queen sectonia), and a GIANT DEATH LASER come out. As for the black hole's strength, that doesn't matter. It's not pushing away from Kirby it's pulling Kirby in so (while invincible) he could just swallow one and spit it out at Rosalina who would die as her invincibility option has been shown to be counteracted by black holes. And no it wouldn't do recoil when getting spat out, else Kirby would've roasted his non-existent lips when redirecting the laser

Okay then, let's use Kirby spitting out what he sucks in. When the black hole exits his mouth, guess what? He's getting sucked into it, since the black hole is now directly in front of him.

Also, I'd like to point out that Kirby can't carry a Miracle Fruit (the item that grants Hypernova) with him in Triple Deluxe, and it doesn't possess a Copy Essence to my knowledge.

The master sword doesn't affect darknuts. Link has to find another way to knock the darknut's armor off. Darknuts are protected with plate armor, presumably made of steel. Stated here, we read that plate armor "was virtually invulnerable to sword slashes. It also protected the wearer well against spear or pike thrusts and provided decent defense against blunt trauma." So the striking strength is under what is required to deform or fracture steel.

Ah, I see.

Veran is the only person I'm aware of who can create lightning, but I cannot find a video where Veran actually uses her lightning attacks against Link. If she uses this during one of her forms, then I suppose not even the plasma beam would harm Link. If not, I don't see why that description should be taken prima facie. The gravity suit normalizes extreme gravity and protects Samus from magma, but I don't assume that it protects her from the gravity from Sagittarius A*, nor higher temperatures. Let's not extrapolate.

"No damage from electricity." It's not extrapolation if the original source speaks in absolutes.

We don't know the amount of heat Link can withstand. I went with what we can observe. Anything beyond that is an assumption. As I stated before, if the power bombs are thermobaric weapons, then they should reach up to 3,000°C.

True. I'd imagine it would at least reduce the damage dealt, though.

Well, due to the graphical improvements over time, I don't see why it should be assumed at supersonic.

Neither do I; I'm just saying that the lack of a sonic boom shouldn't dictate it (for example, we shouldn't say that Samus can't run at supersonic speeds with the Speed Booster due to a lack of a sonic boom).

Here you go. It's after lethal strike is performed on Ridley.

Hmm, interesting. I'm not quite sure what to make of it, to be honest. I'd imagine it's not powered by magic, though.

Not all electrical attacks. It's a rather general statement. However, if Veran does strike Link during battle, then yes, Link would be immune to Samus' plasma beam. You cannot assume that the mirror shield reflects all energy attacks, either. You'd need to prove that. Last I checked, Link still is harmed by the beam from beamos. Not to mention, the mirror shield cannot tolerate both heat and cold. In the battle against Twinrova, if Link absorbs one elemental attack like the flame, and then if he tries to absorb the ice, he'll take damage. Same happens if the method is reversed. Link must absorb one or the other three times.

Lore is proof, and it says that the item in question makes Link take "no damage from electricity". I can't find a source for Veran actually using lightning/electrical attacks; could you lead me to where you found that? Likewise, I couldn't find a source for Beamos's attack harming Link when he's holding up the Mirror Shield. Like the electricity instance I have proven it with lore, which says that the Mirror Shield reflects magic attacks.

I know they're two different methods of protection. However, since the effects of the other beams combine with the wave beam, Link's going to end up frozen. Super missiles are pretty powerful. With the barrier, Ridley still gets knocked back, and he's much larger and heavier than Link. Super missiles causes a quake. This is seen in Super Metroid, Metroid: Other M, and Metroid Fusion. MF has a more noticeable effect. When Samus is going down an elevator to the Main Sector, she feels the quake caused by SA-X's super missile.

Likewise, Link could freeze Samus with the Ice Arrows (and yes, they do work on Darknuts last I checked). When combined with the Skull Hammer (which allows Link to instantly defeat frozen enemies), it's a deadly combination. As I said earlier, Ridley's armor =/= Magic Armor. Just because Super Missiles damage Ridley doesn't mean that it will damage Link with the Magic Armor (which protects Link from explosions last I checked).

The description for the Richter magnitude scale concerning a magnitude of 4.0 to 4.9 says, "Noticeable shaking of indoor objects and rattling noises. Felt by most people in the affected area. Slightly felt outside. Generally causes none to minimal damage. Moderate to significant damage very unlikely. Some objects may fall off shelves or be knocked over." In SM, creatures that craw on walls and ceilings will fall. For a magnitude of 4.0, that's equal to 63 gigajoules, or 15 tons of TNT. I doubt this is the amount of energy, though. Of course, that would seem to fit the description. Still, if we went with 2 gigajoules, or 478 kilograms of TNT. Not only that, but in MOM, Samus' seeker missile allows her to fire one super missile along with four regular missiles. How much energy can the magic armor withstand?

I'm not sure quite how much energy the Magic Armor, but it can withstand quite a bit of damage. How much damage do the Super Missiles deal to regular enemies? Observing an earthquake isn't the most reliable way to get results on what an attack would do to an enemy it hit, so we should use direct data from the Super Missiles hitting an enemy.

I think it's only on the ground. To reconcile why Link cannot pass through walls, but won't receive damage from spiked floors is that Link levitates. This is merely conjecture, but the contradiction demands an explanation.

Hmm. I think it's more of a damage-negating thing than anything else. Can Link pass through enemies that hold weapons (i.e. an enemy that held a spear forward) or normally deal touch damage? Can he still fall into pits? If the answers are "yes" and "no", it appears that he has invincibility in addition to the invisibility (and partial intangibility as well, if he can pass through enemies).

She needs to be able to turn or stop while traveling at supersonic speeds. In the battle against the Alpha Blogg, this mini-boss fires sonic waves at Samus. In water, sound travels faster than 343 m/s. In fresh water, sound travels 1,497 m/s, or 4.36 times faster than sound. Samus can dodge this. Then there's the battle before fighting Gandrayda where Samus isn't even looking and dodges Gandrayda's firearm at point-blank.

Reaction time in-game is left to the player, and thus should not necessarily be attributed to Samus. How fast are those sound waves moving in-game? Gameplay > real-world science. Unless I'm missing something, twenty feet away isn't point-blank. Not to mention that the bullets don't seem to be moving at supersonic speeds.

I've already pointed out my interpretation of heart containers. They're defined as "life energy". A better description is offered from Hyrule Historia, though. In Japanese, it's referred to as "force", "the sacred power the gods gave to the world. It's the breath of life itself." (p. 75) So surprisingly, this is something I've been describing the heart containers as before Hyrule Historia was released.

Okay, then. Link is still extremely durable.

Fairies would be outside help. How much damage do you think fairies can restore anyway?

They're an item in-game, which Link can carry just like he can carry a Boomerang or a Bow. I believe that the Fairy's heal rate varies from game to game, but a life potion should fix Link right up.

Inverted Song of Time only works on those who are on a schedule, which means a lot of people in the Clock Town slow down. Enemies and bosses are not affected because they're not working on a schedule. Besides, using an ocarina would take time, as would Farore's wind.

True, but Link could probably find some free time via the Ice Arrow or other methods.

Anyway, I believe the battle would work out like so:

• Link equips the Magic Armor and drinks his Chateau Romani.
• Samus retaliates, using her Power Bomb, beams, and such.
• The Magic Armor negates most of these (and due to Link's durability plus protective upgrades, the damage that does get through is negligible), and Link uses his Pegasus Boots to charge at Samus.
• However, Samus's Speed Booster allows her to outrun Link and retaliate with various weapons.
• Link eventually gets knocked out, since the Wave Beam, the Power Bomb, and some other weapons could pierce the Magic Armor and do chip damage over time, and the Speed Booster means that Link can't catch up to Samus.
• Samus walks away, satisfied, and probably with plans to blow up the planet later that day.
• However, while Samus thinks she has won, a bottle breaks inside of Link's item bag and out comes a Fairy, which heals Link. He then drinks a Potion to get back up to full health.
• Link then uses the Farore's Wind warp point he set earlier to get closer to Samus without making a sound (or uses the Magic Cape, either one would work).
• Then Link unleashes the deadliest combination in his arsenal. In one hand, the Bow and the Ice Arrows. In the other, the Skull Hammer. You know what happens next.

 

[Crystanium]

"No damage from electricity." It's not extrapolation if the original source speaks in absolutes.

It doesn't say how much electricity, however. Again, that's like saying Samus can survive Sagittarius A* with the gravity suit. In the manual, screen data, and on-screen data, it says the gravity suit negates the effects of extreme gravity and even includes the statement, "negates the effects of gravitational fields".

True. I'd imagine it would at least reduce the damage dealt, though.

We don't know how much heat Link can survive and a thermobaric weapon not only uses heat, but pressure as well, hence the two Greek words "thermos" and "baros". "Bar" is another unit of pressure, but pascals is the name of the unit. We can only go with 700°C on the low-end with the magic armor.

Neither do I; I'm just saying that the lack of a sonic boom shouldn't dictate it (for example, we shouldn't say that Samus can't run at supersonic speeds with the Speed Booster due to a lack of a sonic boom).

The two manuals from MF and MZM already tell us "dash at supersonic speeds", so even if the visual evidence isn't there, the textual evidence is.

Hmm, interesting. I'm not quite sure what to make of it, to be honest. I'd imagine it's not powered by magic, though.

I don't think it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. The Metroidverse is no stranger to magic and psychic abilities.

Lore is proof, and it says that the item in question makes Link take "no damage from electricity". I can't find a source for Veran actually using lightning/electrical attacks; could you lead me to where you found that? Likewise, I couldn't find a source for Beamos's attack harming Link when he's holding up the Mirror Shield. Like the electricity instance I have proven it with lore, which says that the Mirror Shield reflects magic attacks.

I cannot find a source, either. I've seen three videos already and I didn't see lightning used as an attack. I read that the green holy ring will protect Link from Veran on Zeldapedia. So, if there is no evidence of this occurring, then I'll only work with 26 kW as the amount of power Link can withstand. That's the only evidence I have come to. Here's a video, but this is the only time I see lightning ever used. I watched the battle against Onox, but he doesn't use lightning, and neither does Ganon, so yeah. I'll ignore that.

Anyway, it does seem that in OoT from what I read, the mirror shield will reflect the beam. It's inconsistent in the series, but since I'm using the mirror shield from OoT, only that will matter. Still, we can only work with this beam. We cannot assume it'll work on all beams as you think, unless you want to prove that.

Likewise, Link could freeze Samus with the Ice Arrows (and yes, they do work on Darknuts last I checked). When combined with the Skull Hammer (which allows Link to instantly defeat frozen enemies), it's a deadly combination. As I said earlier, Ridley's armor =/= Magic Armor. Just because Super Missiles damage Ridley doesn't mean that it will damage Link with the Magic Armor (which protects Link from explosions last I checked).

Sure, Link can freeze Samus, provided he can hit her. Samus has been able to break out from the judicator, a weapon used by Noxus in Metroid Prime Hunters. The description for the judicator says it "fires supercooled plasma at temperatures approaching absolute zero." Even if Samus cannot break through the magic armor with the super missile, her ice beam is still able to shatter her enemies when she freezes them.

You're comparing the explosions Link can survive with explosions produced in the Metroidverse. Why?

I'm not sure quite how much energy the Magic Armor, but it can withstand quite a bit of damage. How much damage do the Super Missiles deal to regular enemies? Observing an earthquake isn't the most reliable way to get results on what an attack would do to an enemy it hit, so we should use direct data from the Super Missiles hitting an enemy.

I use the Richter magnitude scale because that tells us how many joules I can compare the quakes with the super missiles. It's called transitivity. John is taller than James. James is taller than Peter. Therefore, John is taller than Peter. I'll probably check later what super missiles can do to human-sized enemies in MOM, but larger enemies require more super missiles. That's no surprise. In the MOM artfolio, Samus says, "The creatures that have overrun the Bottle Ship don't go down easily, and many of them will never succumb to shots from my Arm Cannon or even Missiles." This indicates that a lot of enemies Samus fights can take the punishment from missiles.

Hmm. I think it's more of a damage-negating thing than anything else. Can Link pass through enemies that hold weapons (i.e. an enemy that held a spear forward) or normally deal touch damage? Can he still fall into pits? If the answers are "yes" and "no", it appears that he has invincibility in addition to the invisibility (and partial intangibility as well, if he can pass through enemies).

Link won't be harmed by enemy attack, but I interpret this simply as enemies being incapable of seeing Link, so they wouldn't be able to connect a blow to Link. I'm not sure if Link will fall into pits.

Reaction time in-game is left to the player, and thus should not necessarily be attributed to Samus. How fast are those sound waves moving in-game? Gameplay > real-world science. Unless I'm missing something, twenty feet away isn't point-blank. Not to mention that the bullets don't seem to be moving at supersonic speeds.

Of course reaction time is dependent on the player. The point is, Samus fought an enemy who fires sonic waves and this in and of itself is quantifiable. In the video you linked, at 20 seconds, Samus is actually much closer. Assume the muzzle velocity of that shot was 100 mi/h. I'm going to work with 3 feet because I could have swore that was point-blank, according to Wikipedia. I don't see it there anymore, but whatever. I'm working with what I see in the video. 100 mi/h is 146.67 ft/s. Using t = d/s, this means Samus' reaction time is 20 milliseconds. Funnily, isn't that Master Chief's with the help of Cortana? Ha! So yeah, even at that speed, Link still isn't hitting Samus.

Okay, then. Link is still extremely durable.

He gets knocked out by a club to the head in TP just before parts of Hyrule are covered by the shadow realm. To be fair, the same moblin who did this also swings that large axe at Link (with the blunt surface, not the sharp part) and Link gets up. So yeah, Link is a bad***.

They're an item in-game, which Link can carry just like he can carry a Boomerang or a Bow. I believe that the Fairy's heal rate varies from game to game, but a life potion should fix Link right up.

Because I'm not using actual hit points, I was wondering what degree the fairies healed Link. I'd assume small wounds and fatigue would be the low-end.

True, but Link could probably find some free time via the Ice Arrow or other methods.

Well, I'm not sure about that. Magic armor won't protect Link from the wave beam and its ice effect and probably the plasma beam. If it's traveling at light speed, then Link is not going to be able to react to it. Again, even if it was traveling at the speed of sound, he's never demonstrated a feat to react to that, either. I like Link and I think as a composite form, he'll do well against other opponents, but against Samus? I'm not so sure. I wonder how he'd do against Mega Man.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

What exactly makes a force field functionally different from a Protect-type barrier, and what makes Protect a barrier while the Magic Armor is still categorized as a force field?

You got that mixed up there. Protect is a forcefield, Magic Armor is a barrier. Barrier/Light Screen are both barriers, and they have more in common with the armor than Protect. Mewtwo's moves work on those who are using barriers.

In Pokemon, Protect blocks all effects from all but a few select moves (including non-damaging ones), such damage, poison, etc.

What's your point? Protect isn't Magic Armor.

Wait, wait, wait. When was it concluded that Shulk gets Alvis exactly?

The debate on that is over, and Shulk getting Alvis gets more votes, so he gets it.

• Except the area around Rosalina's heart is behind the rest of her torso, and not out in the open. Plus, didn't you say that it wouldn't go through the force field, making this entire tangent rather pointless?
• If it even gets to her in the first place; see above.
• M'kay.

The area around Rosalina's heart is her torso. The explosion would create fire that reaches her heart and destroys it, thus killing her.

Except the Zora Ring allows Link to hold his breath indefinitely (he can dive without coming up for air).

Link wouldn't have any room to take that out.

As @Dryn pointed out, just because UFO Kirby can hover doesn't mean that he is immune to black holes.

I should point out that Rosalina isn't immune either. Mario shows the same "immunity" as her in the ending of SMG, yet he's still affected by the Luma black holes.

Actually, the Hookshot (and I believe the Clawshots as well, but I haven't played those games) will pull an item to Link's current position and into its hands. If Mewtwo takes the item back, Link simply takes it back again. If Mewtwo takes the Hookshot, he uses the Clawshot to retrieve it (or vice versa). If Mewtwo redirects the chain, Link uses the other Clawshot (he has two in addition to the Hookshot) to retrieve the item while Mewtwo is busy with the other one.

Mewtwo takes all of Link's chains. If he ever runs out of uses of Trick, he'll use his TK.

Not to mention that the Magic Armor would block the attack in the first place.

No it wouldn't. Trick works on those using Barrier or Light Screen.

When has UFO Kirby survived an actual black hole (not those things that Marx has)? The Invincibility Candy doesn't protect Kirby from lava, correct? Because a star is hotter than lava, especially at the core (where Kirby would be if he caused one to transform).

And Rosalina isn't immune either. They both die simultaneously, but Kirby wins because he caused his opponent's death.

Except Crash and Mike have limited uses. Kirby's invincibility item would not work for reasons stated above.

Mike has three uses, Rosalina has two lives. Do the math. And the black holes are unreliable, because they could suck up Rosalina. Rosalina is much bigger than Kirby, so she has a lot more gravity. She'd go in quicker.

And I've disproven it.

I disproved your disproof.

 

[Crystanium]

You got that mixed up there. Protect is a forcefield, Magic Armor is a barrier. Barrier/Light Screen are both barriers, and they have more in common with the armor than Protect. Mewtwo's moves work on those who are using barriers.

Force field n. (Chiefly in science fiction) an invisible barrier of exerted strength or impetus.

Should magic armor and protect be treated the same? Not exactly. Let's compare the properties of the two.

Magic armor properties

• In the Pokeverse, it could be a normal-type ability as it has no elemental features. Or it could be a psychic-type because it's magic.
• It uses "magic power".
• "Protects [Link] from enemy attacks".

Protect properties

• It's a normal-type ability.
• It uses "power points", which isn't even magic, but more of a physical thing. Imagine trying to jump hurdles until you're tired. That's what it's like.
• Protect protects the Pokemon in question from enemy attacks, but for every time it's used consecutively, its effects become less likely.

So the thing these two have in common is that a force field is created and protects the user from attacks. Both do exert this by impetus, or "the force or energy with which a body moves". It's just that these forces are different, and that's what makes them entirely different. In my example from yesterday, photons and microwaves travel at the speed of light, both can pass through things, both can produce heat, but both have different wavelengths and some other different properties, thus, they're not the same.

The debate on that is over, and Shulk getting Alvis gets more votes, so he gets it.

That's outside help.

Link wouldn't have any room to take that out.

Why not?

Mewtwo takes all of Link's chains. If he ever runs out of uses of Trick, he'll use his TK.

Prove that this is how Mewtwo behaves.

Mike has three uses, Rosalina has two lives. Do the math. And the black holes are unreliable, because they could suck up Rosalina. Rosalina is much bigger than Kirby, so she has a lot more gravity. She'd go in quicker.

You mean she has more mass. Mike uses sonic energy, which means Rosalina is going to receive damage. 180 to 200 decibels can kill a human. We don't know how loud this microphone ability is, but it's likely relying more on dB than a shock wave. Mini-bosses aren't instantly killed and Kirby Triple Deluxe says mike is more than enough to rock the house.

Let's assume mike produces dB compared to a rock concert. That means mike produces 115 dB according to one site. It's 135 to 145 dB from another. According to this site, you can only be around 115 dB for 30 seconds (or 28 seconds) before damage occurs. (That site also says 115 dB for a rock concert.) So we can work with 115 dB. (I hate ambulances. Those are higher than a rock concert.) If Kirby uses the mike closer to Rosalina, she'll probably experience either temporary or permanent deafness, which means she'll be incapacitated. Taking the average mass of a woman, Kirby could use hypernova to inhale and swallow her.

 

[Munomario777]

It doesn't say how much electricity, however. Again, that's like saying Samus can survive Sagittarius A* with the gravity suit. In the manual, screen data, and on-screen data, it says the gravity suit negates the effects of extreme gravity and even includes the statement, "negates the effects of gravitational fields".

What do said gravitational fields do exactly? Do they reverse gravity? Do they make Samus heavier? Are they just a celestial object's normal gravitational pull? We should know what it's referring to before we can draw a conclusion. Anyway, if it does refer to gravity as in that of a planet or a black hole, there would be a few differences:

• Samus is still affected by gravity; can she not still fall to the ground? The Gravity Suit has demonstrated limitations, while the GHR has not.
• Nothing can survive a black hole, while many things can survive lightning (for instance, lightning rods).
• Lightning is seen in the Oracle games (while Link is not attacked by it, it would have still been taken into consideration for the description), while I sort of doubt that Other M would have Sagittarius A* in the story mode.

We don't know how much heat Link can survive and a thermobaric weapon not only uses heat, but pressure as well, hence the two Greek words "thermos" and "baros". "Bar" is another unit of pressure, but pascals is the name of the unit. We can only go with 700°C on the low-end with the magic armor.

Since the Magic Armor negates damage taken from lava, we could just subtract that from the heat Link is hit by when using the Magic Armor. Considering that in-game, Link only loses about a heart or so when he falls into lava IIRC (not counting upgrades), he should be able to survive extreme heat with the Magic Armor's help.

The two manuals from MF and MZM already tell us "dash at supersonic speeds", so even if the visual evidence isn't there, the textual evidence is.

Yes, I know.

I don't think it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. The Metroidverse is no stranger to magic and psychic abilities.

Has Ridley been known to use magic? It looks like he's just hardening his skin.

I cannot find a source, either. I've seen three videos already and I didn't see lightning used as an attack. I read that the green holy ring will protect Link from Veran on Zeldapedia. So, if there is no evidence of this occurring, then I'll only work with 26 kW as the amount of power Link can withstand. That's the only evidence I have come to. Here's a video, but this is the only time I see lightning ever used. I watched the battle against Onox, but he doesn't use lightning, and neither does Ganon, so yeah. I'll ignore that.

Hmm, I wonder why Veran doesn't just hit Link with the lightning to get the fight over with. Perhaps the wiki could have been referring to the blue orbs in that fight, but I'm not sure if they're negated.

Anyway, it does seem that in OoT from what I read, the mirror shield will reflect the beam. It's inconsistent in the series, but since I'm using the mirror shield from OoT, only that will matter. Still, we can only work with this beam. We cannot assume it'll work on all beams as you think, unless you want to prove that.]

Why would Samus's beam be immune to reflection, while Beamos's (which looks quite a bit like Samus's, by the way) are reflected?

Sure, Link can freeze Samus, provided he can hit her. Samus has been able to break out from the judicator, a weapon used by Noxus in Metroid Prime Hunters. The description for the judicator says it "fires supercooled plasma at temperatures approaching absolute zero." Even if Samus cannot break through the magic armor with the super missile, her ice beam is still able to shatter her enemies when she freezes them.

How long did it take her to break out? Even though the Darknuts in TWW can break out of ice very quickly, Link still has time to use the Skull Hammer and finish the job.

You're comparing the explosions Link can survive with explosions produced in the Metroidverse. Why?

Because we don't have Super Missiles in Zelda, so the closest comparison we could make is surrounding Link in his own bombs and seeing how it goes (I believe the Magic Armor protects him from that, by the way).

I use the Richter magnitude scale because that tells us how many joules I can compare the quakes with the super missiles. It's called transitivity. John is taller than James. James is taller than Peter. Therefore, John is taller than Peter. I'll probably check later what super missiles can do to human-sized enemies in MOM, but larger enemies require more super missiles. That's no surprise. In the MOM artfolio, Samus says, "The creatures that have overrun the Bottle Ship don't go down easily, and many of them will never succumb to shots from my Arm Cannon or even Missiles." This indicates that a lot of enemies Samus fights can take the punishment from missiles.

What type of enemies, may I ask?

Link won't be harmed by enemy attack, but I interpret this simply as enemies being incapable of seeing Link, so they wouldn't be able to connect a blow to Link. I'm not sure if Link will fall into pits.

If an enemy usually deals touch damage, then that's not necessarily them attacking; it could just be, say, poison or spikes on their armor. If one sneaks up on an enemy that deals touch damage from behind with the cape in effect, will the damage still occur?

Of course reaction time is dependent on the player. The point is, Samus fought an enemy who fires sonic waves and this in and of itself is quantifiable. In the video you linked, at 20 seconds, Samus is actually much closer. Assume the muzzle velocity of that shot was 100 mi/h. I'm going to work with 3 feet because I could have swore that was point-blank, according to Wikipedia. I don't see it there anymore, but whatever. I'm working with what I see in the video. 100 mi/h is 146.67 ft/s. Using t = d/s, this means Samus' reaction time is 20 milliseconds. Funnily, isn't that Master Chief's with the help of Cortana? Ha! So yeah, even at that speed, Link still isn't hitting Samus.

Yes, but gameplay shows us that the sonic waves weren't moving at the speed of sound. Also, if it's in gameplay, the reaction time necessary is left to the player. As for the video, that is a bit odd. Before the shot is fired, she's pretty far away. After, she's suddenly much closer. Hmm. Technically, she reacted before the shot was fired, so we should use the twenty feet measurement. While her reaction time may have been rather quick (that or she had correct suspicions about the other character), she wasn't dodging something coming at her at supersonic speeds.

He gets knocked out by a club to the head in TP just before parts of Hyrule are covered by the shadow realm. To be fair, the same moblin who did this also swings that large axe at Link (with the blunt surface, not the sharp part) and Link gets up. So yeah, Link is a bad***.

Well then.

Because I'm not using actual hit points, I was wondering what degree the fairies healed Link. I'd assume small wounds and fatigue would be the low-end.

Considering the fact that Link would have died without a Fairy, I'd imagine it's pretty major.

Also worth noting is that Link can use the Fairy at any time for the same amount of healing, but he's better off saving it to revive him.

Well, I'm not sure about that. Magic armor won't protect Link from the wave beam and its ice effect and probably the plasma beam. If it's traveling at light speed, then Link is not going to be able to react to it. Again, even if it was traveling at the speed of sound, he's never demonstrated a feat to react to that, either. I like Link and I think as a composite form, he'll do well against other opponents, but against Samus? I'm not so sure. I wonder how he'd do against Mega Man.

Link is usually guarding with his shield by default (his idle animation often has him holding it in front of him), which in this case is the Mirror Shield. This would at least negate, if not reflect, the beam attacks. I'd also like to bring up another of my findings: the Potions. There are many Potions throughout the Zelda series, but here are a few that I found notable:

• The Elixir Soup from TWW. This soup cooked by his grandmother is already helpful in that it completely restored his health and magic, but it also has two servings! It also has the added bonus of doubling Link's attack power until he gets hit (which, considering the next potion, won't happen anytime soon).
• The Guardian Potion+ from Skyward Sword. This upgraded potion has the benefit of making Link invincible to enemy attacks for a limited time. Normally it lasts only three minutes, but that time is doubled with the Potion Medallion. Anything that gets through the Magic Armor would likely be stopped by this.
• The other health-restoring Potions (one of them can fully restore Link's health twice).

As for Link VS Mega Man, my money's on Link.

You got that mixed up there. Protect is a forcefield, Magic Armor is a barrier. Barrier/Light Screen are both barriers, and they have more in common with the armor than Protect. Mewtwo's moves work on those who are using barriers.

You still haven't explained the difference, let alone why that difference would be relevant to this discussion.

What's your point? Protect isn't Magic Armor.

And that matters because...?

The debate on that is over, and Shulk getting Alvis gets more votes, so he gets it.

Since when?

The area around Rosalina's heart is her torso. The explosion would create fire that reaches her heart and destroys it, thus killing her.

Except a Starman would likely negate it, as it makes the user invincible. Either way, the protective shield (or just plain avoiding it) would prevent Baton from being used on Rosalina in the first place.

Link wouldn't have any room to take that out.

Because...? He could already be wearing it, you know.

I should point out that Rosalina isn't immune either. Mario shows the same "immunity" as her in the ending of SMG, yet he's still affected by the Luma black holes.

Thank you for bringing that up. All of the Lumas are being sucked into the black hole, but Rosalina and Mario aren't. It appears that Mario is being affected by Rosalina's power in some way to protect from this particular black hole.

Mewtwo takes all of Link's chains. If he ever runs out of uses of Trick, he'll use his TK.

He can hold only one at a time. Link also has a very firm grasp on his Hookshot and Clawshot; he uses them to pull himself across long distances, pull down large statues, and such without his arm being ripped off or letting go of the Hookshot.

No it wouldn't. Trick works on those using Barrier or Light Screen.

Ah.

And Rosalina isn't immune either. They both die simultaneously, but Kirby wins because he caused his opponent's death.

A) Rosalina would have left some room for herself.
B) She could teleport out of the arena (as long as Kirby dies within ten seconds, she won't forfeit the match).
C) Even if she doesn't use A) or B), it's still the Luma that killed them, and the character is Rosalina and Luma.

Mike has three uses, Rosalina has two lives. Do the math. And the black holes are unreliable, because they could suck up Rosalina. Rosalina is much bigger than Kirby, so she has a lot more gravity. She'd go in quicker.

Mike has three uses at a short range, Rosalina has a Starman and black holes. Do the math.

I disproved your disproof.

And I disproved your disproof of my disproof.

Force field n. (Chiefly in science fiction) an invisible barrier of exerted strength or impetus.

Should magic armor and protect be treated the same? Not exactly. Let's compare the properties of the two.

Magic armor properties

• In the Pokeverse, it could be a normal-type ability as it has no elemental features. Or it could be a psychic-type because it's magic.
• It uses "magic power".
• "Protects [Link] from enemy attacks".

Protect properties

• It's a normal-type ability.
• It uses "power points", which isn't even magic, but more of a physical thing. Imagine trying to jump hurdles until you're tired. That's what it's like.
• Protect protects the Pokemon in question from enemy attacks, but for every time it's used consecutively, its effects become less likely.

So the thing these two have in common is that a force field is created and protects the user from attacks. Both do exert this by impetus, or "the force or energy with which a body moves". It's just that these forces are different, and that's what makes them entirely different. In my example from yesterday, photons and microwaves travel at the speed of light, both can pass through things, both can produce heat, but both have different wavelengths and some other different properties, thus, they're not the same.

Very true. Do you think this would have any impact on the Magic Armor's effectiveness at blocking Mewtwo's attacks?

That's outside help.

Yup.

Why not?

I was wondering that too, and depending on how long Link's fingers are, he could have all of his useful Rings equipped at once, meaning that he wouldn't even have to put it on mid-match.

Prove that this is how Mewtwo behaves.

Yeah, I have some trouble believing that Mewtwo could react quickly enough to redirect two Clawshots simultaneously.

You mean she has more mass. Mike uses sonic energy, which means Rosalina is going to receive damage. 180 to 200 decibels can kill a human. We don't know how loud this microphone ability is, but it's likely relying more on dB than a shock wave. Mini-bosses aren't instantly killed and Kirby Triple Deluxe says mike is more than enough to rock the house.

Let's assume mike produces dB compared to a rock concert. That means mike produces 115 dB according to one site. It's 135 to 145 dB from another. According to this site, you can only be around 115 dB for 30 seconds (or 28 seconds) before damage occurs. (That site also says 115 dB for a rock concert.) So we can work with 115 dB. (I hate ambulances. Those are higher than a rock concert.) If Kirby uses the mike closer to Rosalina, she'll probably experience either temporary or permanent deafness, which means she'll be incapacitated. Taking the average mass of a woman, Kirby could use hypernova to inhale and swallow her.

I agree that it would produce about that amount of dB, but I think that if Kirby's tiny little earphones can protect him from getting damaged, then Rosalina's protective shield could likely negate most of the hearing damage. Either way, though, I don't think that losing her hearing would be too much of an issue here in regards to being inhaled by Hypernova.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Has Ridley been known to use magic? It looks like he's just hardening his skin.

He uses no magic (but he does have some insanely hard skin if it blocks Plasma Beam unlike everything organic in Other M, where it goes through only organic stuff, no matter the status of the enemy since it goes through Nightmare's face), but Chozo can make s**t that should not exist (most of Samus' upgrades and the suit itself, Metroids, etc.).

 

[Crystanium]

What do said gravitational fields do exactly? Do they reverse gravity? Do they make Samus heavier? Are they just a celestial object's normal gravitational pull? We should know what it's referring to before we can draw a conclusion. Anyway, if it does refer to gravity as in that of a planet or a black hole, there would be a few differences:

• Samus is still affected by gravity; can she not still fall to the ground? The Gravity Suit has demonstrated limitations, while the GHR has not.
• Nothing can survive a black hole, while many things can survive lightning (for instance, lightning rods).
• Lightning is seen in the Oracle games (while Link is not attacked by it, it would have still been taken into consideration for the description), while I sort of doubt that Other M would have Sagittarius A* in the story mode.

According to Wikipedia, "a gravitational field is a model used to explain the influence that a massive body extends into the space around itself, producing a force on another massive body." Prior to battling Nightmare, who can manipulate gravity, Samus is flipped upside down so that she's walking on ceilings. She gets up to a point where she's heavier. Here's a video. You can watch up to 6:02 if you want to see Samus go through the whole place. Continue watching if you want to watch the battle against Nightmare.

In the second battle against Nightmare, it creates a black hole of its own, capable of absorbing Samus' beams and missiles. I'm not sure how powerful this black hole is, but you can be across the other room facing away and the beams will head straight for the black hole produced by Nightmare. The reason why the gravity feature allows Samus to fall to the ground is because it normalizes the gravity around her to presumably 9.81 m/s^2.

Just because you haven't seen any limits from the green holy ring does not mean you can assume it will protect Link from all electricity. You're extrapolating again. People call this a "no-limits fallacy". The flaw behind this is based on the shield and spear paradox. I haven't seen Link attacked by any lightning attacks in OoA. If he fought an enemy who tries to strike Link, regardless if the person playing avoided the attack, then I'd agree with you on that point about lightning not affecting Link.

You also cannot speak for all types of fiction by saying that nothing can survive a black hole. People are kind of ridiculous when it comes to black holes in fiction. Do I think Samus would survive Sagittarius A*? No. By using your way of thinking though, I could say that the three descriptions for the gravity feature are making an absolute statement, therefore it's lore and it doesn't matter if no one in reality can survive black holes. I feel you're making double standards, Munomario777. I like you, but I don't think it's right to make double standards, which I feel you are.

Since the Magic Armor negates damage taken from lava, we could just subtract that from the heat Link is hit by when using the Magic Armor. Considering that in-game, Link only loses about a heart or so when he falls into lava IIRC (not counting upgrades), he should be able to survive extreme heat with the Magic Armor's help.

Only to a certain degree, though. I've already given my thoughts on how much heat he can survive based on the fireball produced by the river Zora, which is above 700 centigrade.

Has Ridley been known to use magic? It looks like he's just hardening his skin.

No. He's only been known to use Phazon, which has properties that can affect spacetime as in the event of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

Hmm, I wonder why Veran doesn't just hit Link with the lightning to get the fight over with. Perhaps the wiki could have been referring to the blue orbs in that fight, but I'm not sure if they're negated.

I'm not sure. I was hoping to see her use lightning, actually. We cannot assume those blue orbs are lightning. It wouldn't make sense to use a different animation.

Why would Samus's beam be immune to reflection, while Beamos's (which looks quite a bit like Samus's, by the way) are reflected?

My understanding is that beamos are firing a laser, according to Fi's description of the kind in Skyward Sword, where she says they fire a "focused energy beam". Unless we're using elemental compatibility (which it doesn't seem we are), we cannot assume that this particular laser fired by a beamos is exactly the same as Samus' beam weapons. (The technology is different.) Sure, I suppose they'd all be a laser (wave beam being an x-ray laser, ice beam using laser cooling, plasma beam creating a laser-induced plasma channel), but considering these are different as well, we cannot suppose the beamos is firing the same kind.

How long did it take her to break out? Even though the Darknuts in TWW can break out of ice very quickly, Link still has time to use the Skull Hammer and finish the job.

Here's one with Thardus. Their ice abilities are pretty much on par.

Because we don't have Super Missiles in Zelda, so the closest comparison we could make is surrounding Link in his own bombs and seeing how it goes (I believe the Magic Armor protects him from that, by the way).

However, there are more powerful bombs like the powder keg, so that's no excuse.

What type of enemies, may I ask?

Well, from Metroid: Other M alone, here are the following who can take a few missiles.

• Baristute
• Brug Mass
• Cyborg Zebesian
• Desbrachian (These can take power bombs as well and regenerate when they hide in their shell, which is invulnerable to missiles.)
• Dragotix
• FG-1,000 (Samus makes quick work of them with the wave beam.)
• Fly Pod
• Fune and Namihe
• Ghalmanian
• Gigafraug
• Goyagma
• Griptian
• Groganch (I hate these creatures. They take forever. Fortunately there are only three you have to fight and you can skip the second one.)
• Joulion (Ha! Joule + Lion. Nice. I'll have to add that to the Trivia on Wikitroid.)
• King Kihunter
• Kyratian
• Magdollite
• Metroid
• Mighty Griptian
• Mystery Creature
• Nightmare
• Phantoon
• Queen Metroid
• RB176 Ferrocrusher
• Rhedogian (These guys are hardy as hell. They can survive lava, multiple beams, missiles, and screw attacks, but one power bomb will kill them instantly.)
• Ridley
• Sandfang
• Sidehopper
• Super Kihunter (I think.)
• Super Zebesian
• Volfon
• Vorash
• Zebesian

You can see the list here to see what the creatures look like.

If an enemy usually deals touch damage, then that's not necessarily them attacking; it could just be, say, poison or spikes on their armor. If one sneaks up on an enemy that deals touch damage from behind with the cape in effect, will the damage still occur?

I'm talking about enemies who can fire projectiles. It'll go through Link. Link cannot go through walls or chests or other objects that might be in the way.

Yes, but gameplay shows us that the sonic waves weren't moving at the speed of sound. Also, if it's in gameplay, the reaction time necessary is left to the player.

You already brought these up so I'll repeat myself. Let's avoid ad nauseam.

In Super Paper Mario, Beepboxer can fire sound waves. They don't travel at sonic speed like they should. The supersonic waves produced by Shade Man don't travel at supersonic speed like they should. The sonic stun blasts from the alpha blogg doesn't travel at sonic speed like it should. Projectiles typically don't travel at the speed they should. It doesn't mean they don't actually travel that speed. It'd also be harder for a gamer to dodge projectiles traveling their actual speed during game play. Reaction time may be dependent on the player, but the fact that the developers allow for said player to react to it means that it was intended that the protagonist can react to said attacks.

As for the video, that is a bit odd. Before the shot is fired, she's pretty far away. After, she's suddenly much closer. Hmm. Technically, she reacted before the shot was fired, so we should use the twenty feet measurement. While her reaction time may have been rather quick (that or she had correct suspicions about the other character), she wasn't dodging something coming at her at supersonic speeds.

It's normal in media involving visuals. Technically, she reacted after from the 20 second scene, considering that's the one that plays throughout the rest of the cut-scene and not the one prior to it.

Considering the fact that Link would have died without a Fairy, I'd imagine it's pretty major.

I always see Link just being restored from exhaustion. Prior to being "killed", Link will show that he's exhausted if he stands in one area.

Link is usually guarding with his shield by default (his idle animation often has him holding it in front of him), which in this case is the Mirror Shield. This would at least negate, if not reflect, the beam attacks.

Sure, but Samus has ways to deal with that. She's fought space pirates who wield energy shields and she can yank them right out of their grip.

I'd also like to bring up another of my findings: the Potions. There are many Potions throughout the Zelda series, but here are a few that I found notable:

• The Elixir Soup from TWW. This soup cooked by his grandmother is already helpful in that it completely restored his health and magic, but it also has two servings! It also has the added bonus of doubling Link's attack power until he gets hit (which, considering the next potion, won't happen anytime soon).
• The Guardian Potion+ from Skyward Sword. This upgraded potion has the benefit of making Link invincible to enemy attacks for a limited time. Normally it lasts only three minutes, but that time is doubled with the Potion Medallion. Anything that gets through the Magic Armor would likely be stopped by this.
• The other health-restoring Potions (one of them can fully restore Link's health twice).

As for Link VS Mega Man, my money's on Link.

I know about these, but I think the guardian potion+ would be more useful here. No doubt, Link has many defense enhancements. I just want to find out the extent Link's defense enhancements permit. I just thought of something mean. Samus using her speed booster and grabbing Link, launching herself in the air with him using the shinespark and then dropping him.

Well, maybe I'll write up something about Mega Man some time later, but I'd imagine he'd be similar to Samus in many respects. Still, as far as I'm aware, he doesn't have any abilities to look at different electromagnetic spectrums. So Link could use the magic cape to render himself invisible and use bomb arrows. Mega Man's body is made of some fictional titanium and titanium is already pretty tough. However, if Mega Man cannot see Link, that's going to possibly be Mega Man's downfall.

Very true. Do you think this would have any impact on the Magic Armor's effectiveness at blocking Mewtwo's attacks?[/quote]

I'm not sure how much force the magic armor can withstand, so if the amount of force from psychic is less than what the magic armor has demonstrated, then sure, it could block Mewtwo's attacks.

Yeah, I have some trouble believing that Mewtwo could react quickly enough to redirect two Clawshots simultaneously.

Don't be incredulous. It's not good. My point was that we cannot impose what we think a character would do.

I agree that it would produce about that amount of dB, but I think that if Kirby's tiny little earphones can protect him from getting damaged, then Rosalina's protective shield could likely negate most of the hearing damage. Either way, though, I don't think that losing her hearing would be too much of an issue here in regards to being inhaled by Hypernova.

The earphones are probably just for looks. We don't know if Kirby can actually hear or if he hears things the same way. One can experience hearing loss from using firearms without earplugs, though. All I'm saying is that it could incapacitate Rosalina, allowing Kirby to inhale her.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Sure, but Samus has ways to deal with that. She's fought space pirates who wield energy shields and she can yank them right out of their grip.

She can also just grapple beam him instead of his shield. Weight wouldn't be a problem since, well, in this video, she tosses Vorash using nothing but grapple beam without much effort and it dies upon colliding with the wall...That is unless Link is somehow (probably with iron boots) a lot heavier than a giant lava fish a lot bigger than Ridley. But then how does he even moves without sinking into the ground?

 

[Crystanium]

She can also just grapple beam him instead of his shield. Weight wouldn't be a problem since, well, in this video, she tosses Vorash using nothing but grapple beam without much effort and it dies upon colliding with the wall...That is unless Link is somehow (probably with iron boots) a lot heavier than a giant lava fish a lot bigger than Ridley. But then how does he even moves without sinking into the ground?

Samus could, but she'd need to catch him off guard. While Link's physical strength allows him to deadlift 500+ metric tons, he is still susceptible to getting knocked around, as seen in Twilight Princess. That's why he needs the iron boots. Samus' physical strength is not anywhere near Link's, even with the power bracelets alone, which I calculated to be less than what the golden gauntlets can allow Link to lift. From my calculation for Vorash, he's only 55+ metric tons. I doubt the iron boots would make Link too heavy for Samus, though. She casually tosses a large gear on SkyTown, Elysia with one arm. I still need to do that calculation.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Samus could, but she'd need to catch him off guard. While Link's physical strength allows him to deadlift 500+ metric tons, he is still susceptible to getting knocked around, as seen in Twilight Princess. That's why he needs the iron boots. Samus' physical strength is not anywhere near Link's, even with the power bracelets alone, which I calculated to be less than what the golden gauntlets can allow Link to lift. From my calculation for Vorash, he's only 55+ metric tons. I doubt the iron boots would make Link too heavy for Samus, though. She casually tosses a large gear on SkyTown, Elysia with one arm. I still need to do that calculation.

Wow. Didn't thought it was that high. As for Vorash, have you looked at its size outside of just gameplay?

 

[Crystanium]

Wow. Didn't thought it was that high. As for Vorash, have you looked at its size outside of just gameplay?

It's only that high with the golden gauntlets and power bracelets. The golden gauntlets allow Link to lift 486.99 metric tons. The power bracelets add the additional 106.27 metric tons, I think it was.

I used the image gallery from MOM for Vorash. He seems to be similar in size to a Byrde's whale, rather than a whale shark. I suppose he could be the size of a whale shark, which would put Samus' strength much higher.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

It's only that high with the golden gauntlets and power bracelets. The golden gauntlets allow Link to lift 486.99 metric tons. The power bracelets add the additional 106.27 metric tons, I think it was.

I used the image gallery from MOM for Vorash. He seems to be similar in size to a Byrde's whale, rather than a whale shark. I suppose he could be the size of a whale shark, which would put Samus' strength much higher.

Not sure if its accurate to the game on the concept art, but here is real size just in case: http://i.imgur.com/6RIzcP8.png Purple orbs should have organs and other messy stuff in them.

 

[Crystanium]

Not sure if its accurate to the game on the concept art, but here is real size just in case: http://i.imgur.com/6RIzcP8.png Purple orbs should have organs and other messy stuff in them.

That was ripped from the game? That looks quite interesting. I should do another calculation.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

That was ripped from the game? That looks quite interesting. I should do another calculation.

Yes. I have other models too.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

EDIT: messed up my quotes guys, sorry

Samus' normal speed based on the event where she outruns a powdered avalanche puts her at least 30 m/s, or 67 mi/h. Powdered avalanches usually travel 25 m/s. Samus is a few meters ahead of it when outrunning it. This is faster than Link's normal speed, whatever that may be. With the Pegasus boots alone, Link has the advantage, but with that and the bunny hood, he's even faster until Samus activates the speed booster.

I wasn't implying she was slow without it but ok.

Samus can slam into walls at supersonic speeds without any ill-effects. If Link used this strategy, he could still push Samus, should he come into contact, but her reaction time should allow for her to avoid this from happening.

I wasn't trying to imply ill-effects, I was saying that in Metroid she can't run through walls and I figure Link could use his invulnerable Hylian Shield as a wall if he can catch her off guard while she's running, which is doubtful since she has X-ray visor. (not even including her reaction time)

Not on a dime, no. Samus can make turns, though. Prior to Metroid: Other M, this was seen in Metroid Fusion. The B.S.L., which Samus was on. She could go from one sector to another, which based on the structure of the B.S.L. would require turning. She can do this in MOM as well, but the turns are shorter. In reality, an object traveling supersonic could also turn. It's turn would just be greater.
[/quotes]
That's what I figured.

Hmm, interesting. So while Samus probably wouldn't be able to damage Link using heat attacks, he would still flinch or get knocked back. Another nice attribute of the Mirror Shield is that it reflects not only light, but also energy attacks (the in-game description reads, quote, "You found the Mirror Shield! The shield's polished surface can reflect light or energy."), so most (if not all) of Samus's beams would be reflected.

It should also be noted that in Ocarina of Time his Mirror Shield can absorb and reflect back Twinrova's fire and ice attacks.

Hmm, I'm not quite sure. Have we seen spikes on walls or something to that effect in a game with the Magic Cape? My theory is that it just negates damage and has a similar effect to the Magic Armor.

Magic Cape only appeared in ALttP where there were floor spikes. Link's intangible so they don't hurt him.

It's tied to the plot in that, in the plot, the Power Platform gave the Star Rod more abilities. I'm not saying that Bowser using a wish-granting object means that it's limited. I'm saying that, combined with how we can clearly see it gain abilities as it's powered, that detail now seems to support the theory.

As I said below, no new abilities were gained by Star Rod, everything it could do was simply enchanced minus it's healing which gave more total HP but a smaller % of his overall health.

If you steal an object that can grant any wish specifically to use it for that purpose, even if you're an idiot, you should still have the common sense to use the most powerful weapon in the universe that you now have at your disposal.

Plot-induced-stupidity. Sure this is the most extreme example, but we've seen cases where villains (and even heroes) had no reason not to use a weapon/item in their possession to gain victory.

Then why didn't he wish for something after that back-up plan failed? If I'm not mistaken, Mario uses the Peach Beam multiple times to remove Bowser's protection; you'd think he'd get the idea by then.

Why do certain villains keep using an attack against you that allows them to be hurt when simply not using that attack would guarantee victory? Plot induced stupidity.

Ah. Still, the Power Platform's power did also increase the Star Rod's power alongside Bowser himself, and if I'm not mistaken Bowser does wish for more; his attacks are much more diverse in the final boss compared to the first time he's fought.

His attacks are boosted (in terms of strength and side effects) thanks to Kammy's magic. He doesn't gain any new attacks.

You said "I also want to point out that only 2 aspects of the Star Rod were boosted, attack power and healing" in your post, so I addressed the other aspect, that being the protective barrier.

Yes, which wasn't totally boosted. The original invincibility made him invulnerable to everything but the Star Beam and doubled his attack. The powered-up invincibility makes him invulnerable to everything but the Peach Beam but didn't triple or quadruple his attacks; the strength remains at only a bonus of times 2.

Ah. Still, the wishing power is increased, since he can now wish for more powerful attacks.

Yes his attacks got stronger but I don't take that as evidence the Star Rod is somehow limited without a power source. Like I said earlier, the healing isn't really increased and the invincibility is only half way increased. The Star Rod's attacks are the only thing increased, and they received much less of an increase from Kammy's magic than Bowser himself.

What do you mean by "selectively"? Do they only grant wishes made by certain people, or do you mean something else? Stars may get their energy from wishes, but they can't grant their own, can they? Thus, the Star Rod would be very beneficial to them, allowing them to grant any wish for themselves, rather than only for others. Why would it matter if there's nothing that needs to be powered (at least by electricity) in Star Haven?

They only grant good wishes or wishes from good people. That's why Bowser stole the Star Rod, because they ignored his wishes.
I can't say that Stars never grant/never make wishes for themselves, but like I said, it's stated in games by stars themselves that their only purpose is to grant wishes of the Mushroom Kingdom. So if it does happen it's probably very rare. In fact at one point, a star says to Mario "I hope the Star Rod returns...ha! How odd is that? A star making a request for a wish when it's our job to deliver wishes."

My point about electricity is their is nothing you can see that Stars would need to wish for like food, sleep, water, or shelter.

The debate on that is over, and Shulk getting Alvis gets more votes, so he gets it.

I don't remember this vote either...

Link wouldn't have any room to take that out.

Wouldn't need to, he'd have it equipped.
I should point out that Rosalina isn't immune either. Mario shows the same "immunity" as her in the ending of SMG, yet he's still affected by the Luma black holes.

Mewtwo takes all of Link's chains. If he ever runs out of uses of Trick, he'll use his TK.

Trick only lets him swap, so he'd just be giving a chain back.
And since Link's items are in Hyperspace I don't think Mewtwo can just use telekinesis to take them.

@ Nerdicon

You say Baton Kirby can just control her shield and make her explode but:
A) we have no proof it explodes from outside in
B) It's very possible it only controls the outside of barrier and wouldn't actually hurt Rosalina but would destroy her barrier
C) Since the Barrier is not attached to Rosalina, I don't see why she can't just dissolve the barrier.

@ Munomario777

I think Nerdicon's point about the black hole is that Kirby would be immune to the damage of the black hole as long as he was invincible. As for why he gets the hypernova fruit, it's the same reason other characters are getting items the normally can't carry or likely wouldn't be able to carry. That being said, I think once he discards it once it should not be useable again.

Also, fairies shouldn't count as outside help since they can go in the item section. The better question is would Link be better off using his bottles on something else.

I also agree with you on people here equating video game reaction with real world reaction. Just because a character dodges a lightning bolt/sound wave doesn't mean they have lightning/sound quick reactions. We're applying real world physics/logic to video games. It's more likely the enemy is just using something similar to lightning. Unless a character is stated or frequently shown to have reflexes to that level (like Sonic), I don't think we should assume said attacks move that fast anymore than we assume Mario is immune to fire because he can walk right by it without getting burnedd[/quote]

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

That reminds me; how big is the in-game Other M Ridley model compared to Samus, anyways? Using what I could, I got a height of around 12-14 feet, using Samus as a guideline; but that's just an estimation. The in-game model might be totally different from my scale, so seeing how big he is right out of Other M could be interesting.

If he is 14 feet, that would make him (if we assume that he is at least 100 pounds at Samus' size) around 1,400 lbs, or basically 1 and a quarter tonnes. Vorash is roughly the size of a large humpback whale using the models as a basis, so if we use similar weights that makes Vorash between 30-50 tonnes; and Samus tossed Vorash like he was nothing, meaning that probably wasn't even her full strength. If we use Vorash as a baseline, Samus could probably toss around something around 80-100 tonnes with little effort, and 100-400 if she was trying; 500+ tonnes would need some effort, but she could probably manage it. Keep in mind that Samus is only 198 pounds, too; that is astronomical strength.

Besides that, Link really has no counter to things like the Super Missiles, Ice Beam, Shinespark, Power Bomb, and especially the Screw Attack. Link has a number of items to use, but nothing that trumps anything Samus has. Samus' superhuman agility and reflexes also mean that any melee attacks could be rendered useless...so seems to win the fight either way.

As versatile as is, he's just outclassed in this fight. Samus' superior agility, more powerful weaponry and incredible strength will be one hell of a fight for Link to deal with, especially in close-quarters combat. Considering Samus has survived being scrapped against metal walls while inside of a metal suit (which should become boiling hot), intense whiplash and all sorts of things that would kill the average person, she's just as durable as Link, if not moreso...so overall, I don't see Link winning this; especially because Samus is in her Varia Suit (which renders stuff like Fire Arrows useless, since the Varia Suit protects Samus from heat).

So really, I'm erring on Samus to pull out the victor in this match.

 

[Munomario777]

According to Wikipedia, "a gravitational field is a model used to explain the influence that a massive body extends into the space around itself, producing a force on another massive body." Prior to battling Nightmare, who can manipulate gravity, Samus is flipped upside down so that she's walking on ceilings. She gets up to a point where she's heavier. Here's a video. You can watch up to 6:02 if you want to see Samus go through the whole place. Continue watching if you want to watch the battle against Nightmare.

I see. Is this affected by Samus wearing the Gravity Suit?

In the second battle against Nightmare, it creates a black hole of its own, capable of absorbing Samus' beams and missiles. I'm not sure how powerful this black hole is, but you can be across the other room facing away and the beams will head straight for the black hole produced by Nightmare. The reason why the gravity feature allows Samus to fall to the ground is because it normalizes the gravity around her to presumably 9.81 m/s^2.

So just to be clear, the Gravity Suit protects Samus from this black hole, correct?

Just because you haven't seen any limits from the green holy ring does not mean you can assume it will protect Link from all electricity. You're extrapolating again. People call this a "no-limits fallacy". The flaw behind this is based on the shield and spear paradox. I haven't seen Link attacked by any lightning attacks in OoA. If he fought an enemy who tries to strike Link, regardless if the person playing avoided the attack, then I'd agree with you on that point about lightning not affecting Link.

I agree that if it was just the fact that we haven't seen Link get harmed by lightning, then that would mean that he's invulnerable to it; that would be silly. However, the in-game description of the item words it in a way that seems to mean that it means all electricity.

Anyway, I've actually found an instance where Link survives lightning, but it's actually not via the Green Holy Ring. In the Demise fight in Skyward Sword, about halfway through, a lightning storm starts to form, with lightning striking the arena in multiple places. This allows both Link and Demise to harness the electricity to charge their swords by holding them in the air, like a lightning rod. Then they can fire an electrical attack at the other, which stun Demise if Link uses it. But wait, what if Demise uses it? Well, normally it deals about three hearts of damage (note that this is without the Green Holy Ring, which would add some resistance there), but Link can hold up his sword to attract the lightning. Note that the sword is being held above Link, while Demise is shooting at the front of him. This seems to suggest that the Master Sword can attract lightning like a lightning rod, and Link is unharmed in the process, which should allow him to deal with Samus's beam attacks.

You also cannot speak for all types of fiction by saying that nothing can survive a black hole. People are kind of ridiculous when it comes to black holes in fiction. Do I think Samus would survive Sagittarius A*? No. By using your way of thinking though, I could say that the three descriptions for the gravity feature are making an absolute statement, therefore it's lore and it doesn't matter if no one in reality can survive black holes. I feel you're making double standards, Munomario777. I like you, but I don't think it's right to make double standards, which I feel you are.

Of course, there are some things that can survive a black hole in fiction as a whole. The point that I was making is that many things can survive a lightning strike (such as most metal objects), while practically nothing can survive a black hole. I felt that your black hole example was much more extreme in that regard. That said, I do acknowledge that I could have worded it better, and for that I apologize.

Only to a certain degree, though. I've already given my thoughts on how much heat he can survive based on the fireball produced by the river Zora, which is above 700 centigrade.

Of course. I'm just saying that the Magic Armor, the Ring that protects Link from Zora fire, etc. would remove X amount of degrees from the amount of damage that gets through to Link and damages him. Magic Armor protects him from lava, so we subtract the heat of that lava. The Ring protects him from Zora fire, so we subtract the heat of the Zora fire. Et cetera, et cetera.

No. He's only been known to use Phazon, which has properties that can affect spacetime as in the event of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

Hmm, interesting.

I'm not sure. I was hoping to see her use lightning, actually. We cannot assume those blue orbs are lightning. It wouldn't make sense to use a different animation.

Of course; I was just thinking about what the wiki could be basing that statement off of.

My understanding is that beamos are firing a laser, according to Fi's description of the kind in Skyward Sword, where she says they fire a "focused energy beam". Unless we're using elemental compatibility (which it doesn't seem we are), we cannot assume that this particular laser fired by a beamos is exactly the same as Samus' beam weapons. (The technology is different.) Sure, I suppose they'd all be a laser (wave beam being an x-ray laser, ice beam using laser cooling, plasma beam creating a laser-induced plasma channel), but considering these are different as well, we cannot suppose the beamos is firing the same kind.

Aren't Samus's beam weapons "focused energy beams" as well? While the beams fired by the Beamos and Samus may be using different technologies, they seem rather similar. Still, though, they could have different properties, so I'll assume they're not the same, and that they're only similar in that they're lasers. However, lasers are reflected by mirrors, and the amount that isn't reflected is absorbed into the mirror. Seeing as how the Mirror Shield can absorb an indefinite number of blows without breaking, taking the energy from the beams would be no big deal.

Here's one with Thardus. Their ice abilities are pretty much on par.

I see. That looks like about the same time as that of the Darknuts being frozen, but I'd have to double-check just to be sure.

However, there are more powerful bombs like the powder keg, so that's no excuse.

Except those are exclusive to Majora's Mask, and the Magic Armor isn't in that game.

Well, from Metroid: Other M alone, here are the following who can take a few missiles.

• Baristute
• Brug Mass
• Cyborg Zebesian
• Desbrachian (These can take power bombs as well and regenerate when they hide in their shell, which is invulnerable to missiles.)
• Dragotix
• FG-1,000 (Samus makes quick work of them with the wave beam.)
• Fly Pod
• Fune and Namihe
• Ghalmanian
• Gigafraug
• Goyagma
• Griptian
• Groganch (I hate these creatures. They take forever. Fortunately there are only three you have to fight and you can skip the second one.)
• Joulion (Ha! Joule + Lion. Nice. I'll have to add that to the Trivia on Wikitroid.)
• King Kihunter
• Kyratian
• Magdollite
• Metroid
• Mighty Griptian
• Mystery Creature
• Nightmare
• Phantoon
• Queen Metroid
• RB176 Ferrocrusher
• Rhedogian (These guys are hardy as hell. They can survive lava, multiple beams, missiles, and screw attacks, but one power bomb will kill them instantly.)
• Ridley
• Sandfang
• Sidehopper
• Super Kihunter (I think.)
• Super Zebesian
• Volfon
• Vorash
• Zebesian

You can see the list here to see what the creatures look like.

I see. Joulions in particular seem rather fragile, so I don't think it would be a stretch to think that Link would be more durable than they are.

I'm talking about enemies who can fire projectiles. It'll go through Link. Link cannot go through walls or chests or other objects that might be in the way.

I see. So Link is immune to projectiles when he's using the cape?

You already brought these up so I'll repeat myself. Let's avoid ad nauseam.

Sorry, my bad.

In Super Paper Mario, Beepboxer can fire sound waves. They don't travel at sonic speed like they should. The supersonic waves produced by Shade Man don't travel at supersonic speed like they should. The sonic stun blasts from the alpha blogg doesn't travel at sonic speed like it should. Projectiles typically don't travel at the speed they should. It doesn't mean they don't actually travel that speed. It'd also be harder for a gamer to dodge projectiles traveling their actual speed during game play. Reaction time may be dependent on the player, but the fact that the developers allow for said player to react to it means that it was intended that the protagonist can react to said attacks.

@ ShadowLBlue said it best, so I'll just let his post on the subject speak for itself.

It's normal in media involving visuals. Technically, she reacted after from the 20 second scene, considering that's the one that plays throughout the rest of the cut-scene and not the one prior to it.

I'm not sure what to make of this, to be honest. There was quite a bit of focus on Samus being close to the door, however.

I always see Link just being restored from exhaustion. Prior to being "killed", Link will show that he's exhausted if he stands in one area.

Really? Because this looks like it's a bit more than exhaustion, especially considering that a game over can be triggered by being hit with a sword or being hit with a bomb.

Sure, but Samus has ways to deal with that. She's fought space pirates who wield energy shields and she can yank them right out of their grip.

Well, Link does seem to have a strong grip on his items (the aforementioned Hookshot example comes to mind).

I know about these, but I think the guardian potion+ would be more useful here. No doubt, Link has many defense enhancements. I just want to find out the extent Link's defense enhancements permit. I just thought of something mean. Samus using her speed booster and grabbing Link, launching herself in the air with him using the shinespark and then dropping him.

Why don't you think that the Guardian Potion+ would be useful? As for Samus dropping Link, that would be rather cruel, but Link has ways to negate this. For one, he has been shown to take falls rather lightly, often maxing out at one heart from fall damage. He also has items like the Deku Leaf or the Sail to help him glide down slowly.

Well, maybe I'll write up something about Mega Man some time later, but I'd imagine he'd be similar to Samus in many respects. Still, as far as I'm aware, he doesn't have any abilities to look at different electromagnetic spectrums. So Link could use the magic cape to render himself invisible and use bomb arrows. Mega Man's body is made of some fictional titanium and titanium is already pretty tough. However, if Mega Man cannot see Link, that's going to possibly be Mega Man's downfall.

While the Magic Cape could catch Mega Man off guard, I don't think it would be essential; the Magic Armor should negate most of Mega Man's attacks, and he isn't particularly durable.

I'm not sure how much force the magic armor can withstand, so if the amount of force from psychic is less than what the magic armor has demonstrated, then sure, it could block Mewtwo's attacks.

Well, let's see. Psychic has a Power stat of 90 in the Pokemon games. Explosion has a whopping Power stat of 250. Seeing as how the Magic Armor protects Link from explosions (as mentioned above), Psychic (and all other attacks that Protect can shield against, for that matter) should be no problem.

Don't be incredulous. It's not good. My point was that we cannot impose what we think a character would do.

My apologies, I may have worded that wrong. What I meant was, I'm not buying that Mewtwo has that sort of reaction time with the evidence that's been presented so far. If he was shown to perform such a feat, then I could believe that just fine.

The earphones are probably just for looks. We don't know if Kirby can actually hear or if he hears things the same way. One can experience hearing loss from using firearms without earplugs, though. All I'm saying is that it could incapacitate Rosalina, allowing Kirby to inhale her.

Kirby doesn't have ears, so that's always a possibility. I still don't see how losing her hearing would be that big of a deal to Rosalina in this scenario, though. Sure, she would be crippled for life in that regard, but there isn't really anything that Rosalina would need hearing in particular for in this battle.

I'll wait until @ ShadowLBlue fixes the quotes in his post to reply to him.

 

[The Smashor]

Can someone do Tabuu. He is strong you know.

 

[The Smashor]

Samus has her gadgets and all, but she has lost to Ridley, Dark Samus, an Omega Metroid (lul) and Mother Brain, and I doubt any of those are any stronger than Ganondorf.

Ganondorf does have that whole "can only be defeated by the Master Sword (or the chosen hero)" deal, so that's kind of a cheat for anyone except Link and his Toon counterpart.

If we're talking Hyper/Super/whatever Sonic, then yeah, he's apparently quite up there too. So I've heard at least, wouldn't know that myself since I haven't played any of the Sonic games post-Genesis except for Colors, Generations and Lost World.

Ness sort of rids himself of all evil and flaws towards the end of Earthbound, making him able to withstand Giygas, who's about to swallow the world whole due to his sheer power. I mean, sure he doesn't defeat Giygas himself, but he's able to hold back a being who is about to spread and devour the whole universe, that takes quite a lot of power, and even if it's the prayers which finally does Giygas in Ness does put him into an unstable state. Lucas never really reaches that level since he at worst fights Porky, who Ness and his team easily got rid of. Ninten doesn't get up there either, since he at worst fights Giygas in his physical form, which was before he was torn apart by his sheer power. So yeah, Ness is the strongest of the three psychic boys from Mother. I can almost guarantee that he's ahead of Mewtwo too, PSI is in general much more extreme than only shooting Shadow Balls, manipulating the weather, throwing Pokémons across the room and petrifying a mediocre trainer.

I'm tempted to say Ness here, but I'm just not too sure on Sonic or Ganondorf to really make the verdict.

Chosen hero, you say. That would be because in some games, he is called "chosen one" (I think).
Plus if steve was in smash, he would easily be the strongest. Creative mode op. Plus, I would put over due to the incredable things he's done. Plus no one can hit him cause he's 2D. lol

 

[Kirby Dragons]

And that matters because...?

Because you can't compare Protect to Magic Armor and say it would block Mewtwo's moves.

Since when?

Since Shadow and I supported Shulk getting Alvis, and you supported him didn't.

Because...? He could already be wearing it, you know.

Because Mewtwo and Link are squeezed tight into the armor. And Mewtwo could take the ring(s).

Thank you for bringing that up. All of the Lumas are being sucked into the black hole, but Rosalina and Mario aren't. It appears that Mario is being affected by Rosalina's power in some way to protect from this particular black hole.

It appears? Why do you say that?

He can hold only one at a time. Link also has a very firm grasp on his Hookshot and Clawshot; he uses them to pull himself across long distances, pull down large statues, and such without his arm being ripped off or letting go of the Hookshot.

Mewtwo can hold two at a time, he has two hands. And as I said earlier, he can place the chains under his foot. Or, he could use Teleport to bring the chains, or Link's other equipment, out of the arena, and Link can't get it anymore.

A) Rosalina would have left some room for herself.
B) She could teleport out of the arena (as long as Kirby dies within ten seconds, she won't forfeit the match).
C) Even if she doesn't use A) or B), it's still the Luma that killed them, and the character is Rosalina and Luma.

A) How would she do that?
B) Rosalina's teleport is slow, she'd die before it was completed.
C) It was a Luma, until Kirby killed it. It becomes a star, and the character isn't Rosalina and star.
And as Nerdicon pointed out, Lumas turn into stardust, not actual stars.

Mike has three uses at a short range, Rosalina has a Starman and black holes. Do the math.

Black holes are unreliable, Starman only lasts eleven seconds. Plus, Kirby doesn't have to wait. Starman doesn't protect Rosalina from one-shot attacks. Crash takes away over half the health of someone with a greater health bar than Rosalina.

That's outside help.

Which we are allowing, if the help can't operate by itself.

Muno's argument against Shulk's power was, "Shulk basically told Alvis to reset the universe." That's just proof against him. If Alvis could do his own thing, he wouldn't need Shulk to tell him what to do.

Prove that this is how Mewtwo behaves.

Pretty sure we aren't using behavior traits.

 

[Munomario777]

Because you can't compare Protect to Magic Armor and say it would block Mewtwo's moves.

Psychic has a power value of 90, and Protect can block it. Explosion has a power value of 250 (it's the most potent attack in the Pokemon games in that regard), and the Magic Armor can block explosions.
Psychic < Explosion.
Magic Armor can block explosions.
Therefore, Magic Armor can block Psychic.

Since Shadow and I supported Shulk getting Alvis, and you supported him didn't.

Since when did Shadow support Shulk getting Alvis?

Because Mewtwo and Link are squeezed tight into the armor. And Mewtwo could take the ring(s).

Link would probably already be wearing that ring. If Link wore the rings under his gloves, Mewtwo wouldn't see them or know to take them.

It appears? Why do you say that?

As in, it seems like.

Mewtwo can hold two at a time, he has two hands. And as I said earlier, he can place the chains under his foot. Or, he could use Teleport to bring the chains, or Link's other equipment, out of the arena, and Link can't get it anymore.

In Pokemon, Mewtwo, along with all other Pokemon, can only hold one item at once. If Mewtwo placed them under his foot, then Link could still retrieve them; it would just have the added bonus of tripping Mewtwo. As for Teleport, it can only be used to flee battles with wild Pokemon; if used against a Trainer, it will fail. Even if he could escape, Trick won't permanently steal items in a Trainer battle; they are returned to the original owner once the battle is ended.

A) How would she do that?
B) Rosalina's teleport is slow, she'd die before it was completed.
C) It was a Luma, until Kirby killed it. It becomes a star, and the character isn't Rosalina and star.
And as Nerdicon pointed out, Lumas turn into stardust, not actual stars.

A) By controlling the size of the star.
B) Unless she started before the Luma transformed.
C) By that logic, Kirby cannot win while using Stone, since he has now turned into a rock and is not the original Kirby.
Yes, but that would likely form a star if enough Lumas died. It might take a while, but it could eventually happen. Thus, it's at least somewhat worth discussing.

Black holes are unreliable, Starman only lasts eleven seconds. Plus, Kirby doesn't have to wait. Starman doesn't protect Rosalina from one-shot attacks. Crash takes away over half the health of someone with a greater health bar than Rosalina.

How are black holes "unreliable"? Starman would last long enough to get Kirby into a black hole. If you can prove that Crash would be a one-shot attack to Rosalina with a Starman (note that mini-bosses aren't invincible like a Starman user), then I'll reconsider. For now, though, just because it OHKOs Kirby enemies doesn't mean it'll OHKO Rosalina.

Which we are allowing, if the help can't operate by itself.

And Alvis can, as shown by the cutscene where he's shown using the Monado to teach Shulk a new technique or something along those lines (I think it was brought up previously in the thread).

Muno's argument against Shulk's power was, "Shulk basically told Alvis to reset the universe." That's just proof against him. If Alvis could do his own thing, he wouldn't need Shulk to tell him what to do.

It's an authority thing. A construction worker operating a crane has quite a bit of power at his disposal, but he'll only do what his boss/commander/whoever's giving him orders tells him to.

Pretty sure we aren't using behavior traits.

It's a question of who would win in a fight, so they should be taken into account. Either way "behave" can mean more than personality and such; it just means to act in a certain way.

 

[Crystanium]

I see. Is this affected by Samus wearing the Gravity Suit?

As in, does it have any effect on Samus with the gravity feature active? The gravity feature normalizes the gravity changes in these areas where she was originally affected. Even the vacuum of space cannot suck her right out of the Bottle Ship. This occurs when Samus is escaping Sector Zero and her and the space pirates are being sucked out. She activates the gravity feature and drops to the ground. It's honestly a bad*** moment.

So just to be clear, the Gravity Suit protects Samus from this black hole, correct?

The black hole only harms Samus if she comes into direct contact with it. The event horizon, however, is rather large and she's not affected in any way with that. I once thought the black hole didn't harm Samus until I was fighting Nightmare and he launched it right at me. I was all, "What the heck?" If I could find how powerful this black hole was, I'd be able to demonstrate what Samus isn't affected against.

I agree that if it was just the fact that we haven't seen Link get harmed by lightning, then that would mean that he's invulnerable to it; that would be silly. However, the in-game description of the item words it in a way that seems to mean that it means all electricity.

I tend to take general statements as that. I don't take them to define what degree the damage can be prevented. The reason why I say this is because I've seen where statements are general and then learn that it's truly not the case. For example, in the Super Metroid manual, it says that the speed booster makes Samus invincible, yet she can be stopped by a few things in SM, as well as things in MOM. During this "invincible" state, Samus still receives heat damage as well if she has the varia or gravity suit off.

The reason why I decided to go ahead with what the Nintendo's player guide said about the buzz blob was because I wanted to really show you and ShadowLBlue that I was trying to be as objective as possible for the match-up between Samus and Link. I think that the calculation is a good one. I can even go a step further with that and make half the population be single people and the other be married. (Americans have what, 1.0+ children?) Let me do that to see what other wattage I can get to boost Link's resistance to electricity.

8,900 kilowatt-hours (kWh) is the amount the average household uses in a year from the link I provided earlier. There are twelve months in a year, so . . .

8,900 / 12 = 741.67

There is on average 30 days a month, so . . .

741.67 / 30 = 24.72 kWh per day.

I am dividing the houses so that half the households have no children, but are single. That means there are 50,000 houses, all with people who are single and have no children. The other has one father, mother, and child, so that means the other half makes up 16,666.67 houses. Adding these gives a total of 66,666.67 houses. Multiplying these houses by 24.72 gives us 1,648,148.15 kWh. Dividing this by 24, since we're assuming this amount of power is used for one day, buzz blobs should generate up to 68,672.84 watts (64 kW).

Even if I was very generous and assumed that there were 100,000 people living alone without a child and significant other, the amount of power would be 103,009.26, which is still considerably lower than one terawatt.

Anyway, I've actually found an instance where Link survives lightning, but it's actually not via the Green Holy Ring. In the Demise fight in Skyward Sword, about halfway through, a lightning storm starts to form, with lightning striking the arena in multiple places. This allows both Link and Demise to harness the electricity to charge their swords by holding them in the air, like a lightning rod. Then they can fire an electrical attack at the other, which stun Demise if Link uses it. But wait, what if Demise uses it? Well, normally it deals about three hearts of damage (note that this is without the Green Holy Ring, which would add some resistance there), but Link can hold up his sword to attract the lightning. Note that the sword is being held above Link, while Demise is shooting at the front of him. This seems to suggest that the Master Sword can attract lightning like a lightning rod, and Link is unharmed in the process, which should allow him to deal with Samus's beam attacks.

I know about this. Even with the master sword's ability to contain the power generated from a lightning bolt, it requires for Link to be able to react to lightning. In order to do that, Link's reaction time would need to be in the microsecond range. At that point, Link would be able to see the lightning traveling. Link may be able to hold his master sword out to prevent harm from Samus' plasma beam, since electricity is attracted to the nearest thing.

Of course, there are some things that can survive a black hole in fiction as a whole. The point that I was making is that many things can survive a lightning strike (such as most metal objects), while practically nothing can survive a black hole. I felt that your black hole example was much more extreme in that regard. That said, I do acknowledge that I could have worded it better, and for that I apologize.

I read somewhere that only 10 to 30% of people struck by lightning end up dying. I think this may be either due to how short-lived a strike is, or that these percentages are of those who were struck directly. Let's just be happy that this isn't Samus' wavebuster, which also behaves like an electrolaser. This wave beam charge combo will strike the nearest target and constantly shock that target until either Samus stops or the target is killed (electrocution).

Of course. I'm just saying that the Magic Armor, the Ring that protects Link from Zora fire, etc. would remove X amount of degrees from the amount of damage that gets through to Link and damages him. Magic Armor protects him from lava, so we subtract the heat of that lava. The Ring protects him from Zora fire, so we subtract the heat of the Zora fire. Et cetera, et cetera.

I'm not sure if it behaves that way.

Of course; I was just thinking about what the wiki could be basing that statement off of.

That's what I was wondering, too. I prefer Zelda Wiki over Zeldapedia, honestly. Again, the statement about the bunny hood increasing Link's speed by 68% is not cited, but once again for the sake of assisting Link in this match, I assumed it was true.

Aren't Samus's beam weapons "focused energy beams" as well?

At best, Samus' beam weapons are directed-energy weapons. According to Wikipedia,

"A directed-energy weapon (DEW) emits highly focused energy, transferring that energy to a target to damage it.

"Potential applications of this technology include anti-personnel weapon systems, potential missile defense system, and the disabling of lightly armored vehicles such as cars, drones, jet skis, and electronic devices such as mobile phones.[1][2]

"The energy can come in various forms:

• Electromagnetic radiation, including radio frequency, microwave, lasers and masers.
• Particles with mass, in particle-beam weapons (technically a form of micro-projectile weapon)
• Sound, in sonic weapons"

Throughout Samus' missions, she's had the power beam, which is an energy beam according to the official Metroid Fusion Web site, weapons like that of radio waves, including the wave and nova beam, lasers such as the light beam and plasma beam in the 2D games, plasma weapons like the plasma beam and judicator, and sonic weapons, such as the annihilator beam.

While the beams fired by the Beamos and Samus may be using different technologies, they seem rather similar. Still, though, they could have different properties, so I'll assume they're not the same, and that they're only similar in that they're lasers. However, lasers are reflected by mirrors, and the amount that isn't reflected is absorbed into the mirror. Seeing as how the Mirror Shield can absorb an indefinite number of blows without breaking, taking the energy from the beams would be no big deal.

The beamos in TP has a better looking laser. It actually looks like a beam of plasma. I'm not sure how it's not defocusing, due to blooming. There could be some kind of method that allows it, though. Or maybe it's just a beam of plasma if that falls under the definition of "highly focused energy". Anyway, the mirror shield looks more like very polished metal and not so much a mirror like we're aware of, which would be fragile.

It's worth noting, though, that mirrors do not completely reflect light. Light will reflect off a polished surface, but the photons that are not reflected are instead absorbed. Short wavelengths are more energetic, so if a high-powered laser firing a beam made up of short wavelengths in a specific area can heat up that area fast enough, it will cause the mirror to melt. Certainly, metal should be able to avoid this because it's more resistant, but lasers in this day and age are meant to cut through metal.

Except those are exclusive to Majora's Mask, and the Magic Armor isn't in that game.

It's in the same universe, though. Eiji Aonuma recently mentioned that Termina is not a parallel world, but "a nearby land" that gives that impression. I use descriptions from other Zelda games, but you're not excusing those.

I see. So Link is immune to projectiles when he's using the cape?

In my post about Samus vs. Composite Link, I mentioned that chances are, Nintendo conflated "invisibility" with "intangibility" and used Lady Bow from Paper Mario as an example of her ability, "Outta Sight". Of course, her ability is more clear on the matter. I'm just saying that if Link uses the magic cape as a projectile is launched his way, it'll pass through him. Again, my interpretation for this is because if you cannot see your opponent, you cannot connect a blow.

Sorry, my bad.

It's nothing to worry about.

I'm not sure what to make of this, to be honest. There was quite a bit of focus on Samus being close to the door, however.

If it helps, in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, when Samus and the Hunters get up the tower to stop the Leviathan, Dark Samus fires a shot at Samus and in that scene, Samus dodges the beam after it has been fired.

Really? Because this looks like it's a bit more than exhaustion, especially considering that a game over can be triggered by being hit with a sword or being hit with a bomb.[/quote]

Well, Link does seem to have a strong grip on his items (the aforementioned Hookshot example comes to mind).

I know, which is why I said Samus would need to catch Link off guard. Unlike Link, however, if Samus stops using the grapple beam, she doesn't need to worry about it returning to her. It just stops.

Why don't you think that the Guardian Potion+ would be useful? As for Samus dropping Link, that would be rather cruel, but Link has ways to negate this. For one, he has been shown to take falls rather lightly, often maxing out at one heart from fall damage. He also has items like the Deku Leaf or the Sail to help him glide down slowly.

I just don't know the extent Link can withstand. I wish I could play through WW and SS because I'd like to test these things. My brother has both games and I've played them before, but it's been so long. I know in cut-scenes, Link has fallen from high spots without sustaining injury, so I'll keep these in mind.

While the Magic Cape could catch Mega Man off guard, I don't think it would be essential; the Magic Armor should negate most of Mega Man's attacks, and he isn't particularly durable.[/quote]

Well, titanium is not harder than steel, but it is tougher, I think. If Link has his seed satchel from the OoX games, then he might be able to harm Mega Man with the ember seeds. It looks like those can vaporize enemies.

Kirby doesn't have ears, so that's always a possibility. I still don't see how losing her hearing would be that big of a deal to Rosalina in this scenario, though. Sure, she would be crippled for life in that regard, but there isn't really anything that Rosalina would need hearing in particular for in this battle.

I'm saying that Rosalina could end up being incapacitated. This means that she could be stunned momentarily for Kirby to inhale her, but I'm not sure. This is just my assumption.

Muno's argument against Shulk's power was, "Shulk basically told Alvis to reset the universe." That's just proof against him. If Alvis could do his own thing, he wouldn't need Shulk to tell him what to do.

Alvis is a person with his own consciousness. He's outside help. That's like Paper Mario being allowed to use the Star Spirits.

Pretty sure we aren't using behavior traits.

I'm certain a character behaves a certain way and uses his/her abilities a certain way.

 

[Munomario777]

As in, does it have any effect on Samus with the gravity feature active? The gravity feature normalizes the gravity changes in these areas where she was originally affected. Even the vacuum of space cannot suck her right out of the Bottle Ship. This occurs when Samus is escaping Sector Zero and her and the space pirates are being sucked out. She activates the gravity feature and drops to the ground. It's honestly a bad*** moment.

The black hole only harms Samus if she comes into direct contact with it. The event horizon, however, is rather large and she's not affected in any way with that. I once thought the black hole didn't harm Samus until I was fighting Nightmare and he launched it right at me. I was all, "What the heck?" If I could find how powerful this black hole was, I'd be able to demonstrate what Samus isn't affected against.

I see. So Samus likely wouldn't survive a supermassive black hole, since the Gravity Suit has been shown to still get damaged by that sort of thing.

I tend to take general statements as that. I don't take them to define what degree the damage can be prevented. The reason why I say this is because I've seen where statements are general and then learn that it's truly not the case. For example, in the Super Metroid manual, it says that the speed booster makes Samus invincible, yet she can be stopped by a few things in SM, as well as things in MOM. During this "invincible" state, Samus still receives heat damage as well if she has the varia or gravity suit off.

It's a different matter if there's been shown to be exceptions to the rule, but that's not the case with the Green Holy Ring.

The reason why I decided to go ahead with what the Nintendo's player guide said about the buzz blob was because I wanted to really show you and ShadowLBlue that I was trying to be as objective as possible for the match-up between Samus and Link. I think that the calculation is a good one. I can even go a step further with that and make half the population be single people and the other be married. (Americans have what, 1.0+ children?) Let me do that to see what other wattage I can get to boost Link's resistance to electricity.

8,900 kilowatt-hours (kWh) is the amount the average household uses in a year from the link I provided earlier. There are twelve months in a year, so . . .

8,900 / 12 = 741.67

There is on average 30 days a month, so . . .

741.67 / 30 = 24.72 kWh per day.

I am dividing the houses so that half the households have no children, but are single. That means there are 50,000 houses, all with people who are single and have no children. The other has one father, mother, and child, so that means the other half makes up 16,666.67 houses. Adding these gives a total of 66,666.67 houses. Multiplying these houses by 24.72 gives us 1,648,148.15 kWh. Dividing this by 24, since we're assuming this amount of power is used for one day, buzz blobs should generate up to 68,672.84 watts (64 kW).

Even if I was very generous and assumed that there were 100,000 people living alone without a child and significant other, the amount of power would be 103,009.26, which is still considerably lower than one terawatt.

Out of curiosity, what were those numbers like at the time the game was made? I'd imagine things would change quite a bit using those numbers, after all.

I know about this. Even with the master sword's ability to contain the power generated from a lightning bolt, it requires for Link to be able to react to lightning. In order to do that, Link's reaction time would need to be in the microsecond range. At that point, Link would be able to see the lightning traveling. Link may be able to hold his master sword out to prevent harm from Samus' plasma beam, since electricity is attracted to the nearest thing.

Link wouldn't really need to react, since the lightning attracts towards his sword (as shown by the fact that holding it up absorbs attacks from in front of Link).

I read somewhere that only 10 to 30% of people struck by lightning end up dying. I think this may be either due to how short-lived a strike is, or that these percentages are of those who were struck directly. Let's just be happy that this isn't Samus' wavebuster, which also behaves like an electrolaser. This wave beam charge combo will strike the nearest target and constantly shock that target until either Samus stops or the target is killed (electrocution).

Well then. That's pretty intense, haha.

I'm not sure if it behaves that way.

I'd imagine it would stack; it makes sense with how it functions if you think about it. Link touches lava, he gets damaged. If the Magic Armor subtracts that amount of heat, then he doesn't get damaged.

That's what I was wondering, too. I prefer Zelda Wiki over Zeldapedia, honestly. Again, the statement about the bunny hood increasing Link's speed by 68% is not cited, but once again for the sake of assisting Link in this match, I assumed it was true.

As do I; NIWA network for the win!

At best, Samus' beam weapons are directed-energy weapons. According to Wikipedia,

"A directed-energy weapon (DEW) emits highly focused energy, transferring that energy to a target to damage it.

"Potential applications of this technology include anti-personnel weapon systems, potential missile defense system, and the disabling of lightly armored vehicles such as cars, drones, jet skis, and electronic devices such as mobile phones.[1][2]

"The energy can come in various forms:

• Electromagnetic radiation, including radio frequency, microwave, lasers and masers.
• Particles with mass, in particle-beam weapons (technically a form of micro-projectile weapon)
• Sound, in sonic weapons"

Throughout Samus' missions, she's had the power beam, which is an energy beam according to the official Metroid Fusion Web site, weapons like that of radio waves, including the wave and nova beam, lasers such as the light beam and plasma beam in the 2D games, plasma weapons like the plasma beam and judicator, and sonic weapons, such as the annihilator beam.

I see. Samus has quite the varied arsenal.

The beamos in TP has a better looking laser. It actually looks like a beam of plasma. I'm not sure how it's not defocusing, due to blooming. There could be some kind of method that allows it, though. Or maybe it's just a beam of plasma if that falls under the definition of "highly focused energy". Anyway, the mirror shield looks more like very polished metal and not so much a mirror like we're aware of, which would be fragile.

Yeah, that seems to be the case.

It's worth noting, though, that mirrors do not completely reflect light. Light will reflect off a polished surface, but the photons that are not reflected are instead absorbed. Short wavelengths are more energetic, so if a high-powered laser firing a beam made up of short wavelengths in a specific area can heat up that area fast enough, it will cause the mirror to melt. Certainly, metal should be able to avoid this because it's more resistant, but lasers in this day and age are meant to cut through metal.

Yes, I brought that up in my post; since the Mirror Shield can survive an indefinite amount of fiery blows and such, that shouldn't be an issue.

It's in the same universe, though. Eiji Aonuma recently mentioned that Termina is not a parallel world, but "a nearby land" that gives that impression. I use descriptions from other Zelda games, but you're not excusing those.

They are the same universe, but since they're in different games, we can't put Link wearing the Magic Armor next to a powder keg to test if it would withstand the blow.

In my post about Samus vs. Composite Link, I mentioned that chances are, Nintendo conflated "invisibility" with "intangibility" and used Lady Bow from Paper Mario as an example of her ability, "Outta Sight". Of course, her ability is more clear on the matter. I'm just saying that if Link uses the magic cape as a projectile is launched his way, it'll pass through him. Again, my interpretation for this is because if you cannot see your opponent, you cannot connect a blow.

Well, if you point a gun at someone and close your eyes, it'll still hit them. Just because the enemy cannot see Link doesn't mean that their arrows would pass right through him; there must be some sort of intangibility/invulnerability going on here.

If it helps, in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, when Samus and the Hunters get up the tower to stop the Leviathan, Dark Samus fires a shot at Samus and in that scene, Samus dodges the beam after it has been fired.

Could you provide a video please? I'm curious.

I know, which is why I said Samus would need to catch Link off guard. Unlike Link, however, if Samus stops using the grapple beam, she doesn't need to worry about it returning to her. It just stops.

I brought up the Hookshot mainly to demonstrate Link's grip, rather than how he could use the Hookshot against Samus. The Grapple Beam seems to have an advantage in that regard, but how long is it?

I just don't know the extent Link can withstand. I wish I could play through WW and SS because I'd like to test these things. My brother has both games and I've played them before, but it's been so long. I know in cut-scenes, Link has fallen from high spots without sustaining injury, so I'll keep these in mind.

I actually own Wind Waker HD thanks to the Mario Kart 8 Club Nintendo deal, so I could test this tomorrow.

Well, titanium is not harder than steel, but it is tougher, I think. If Link has his seed satchel from the OoX games, then he might be able to harm Mega Man with the ember seeds. It looks like those can vaporize enemies.

Yes, but using in-game data, a few good hits will defeat Mega Man.

I'm saying that Rosalina could end up being incapacitated. This means that she could be stunned momentarily for Kirby to inhale her, but I'm not sure. This is just my assumption.

Seeing as how Rosalina is rather focused and keeps her cool even in dire situations, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. That said, most people would likely be caught off guard by this.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Psychic has a power value of 90, and Protect can block it. Explosion has a power value of 250 (it's the most potent attack in the Pokemon games in that regard), and the Magic Armor can block explosions.
Psychic < Explosion.
Magic Armor can block explosions.
Therefore, Magic Armor can block Psychic.

Sure, but it wouldn't block Mewtwo's mind controlling or such. And Mewtwo could take the Magic Armor before Link activates it.

Since when did Shadow support Shulk getting Alvis?

He was the main one debating for it.

As in, it seems like.

More likely, he was just confused on what had happened.

In Pokemon, Mewtwo, along with all other Pokemon, can only hold one item at once. If Mewtwo placed them under his foot, then Link could still retrieve them; it would just have the added bonus of tripping Mewtwo. As for Teleport, it can only be used to flee battles with wild Pokemon; if used against a Trainer, it will fail. Even if he could escape, Trick won't permanently steal items in a Trainer battle; they are returned to the original owner once the battle is ended.

Illogical game mechanics. Mewtwo has two hands, so he can hold two items. And since Mewtwo can float, it wouldn't trip him. And Trick returns items after the battle is over, not while it's going on.

A) By controlling the size of the star.
B) Unless she started before the Luma transformed.
C) By that logic, Kirby cannot win while using Stone, since he has now turned into a rock and is not the original Kirby.
Yes, but that would likely form a star if enough Lumas died. It might take a while, but it could eventually happen. Thus, it's at least somewhat worth discussing.

A) Since when can she do that?
B) And when she starts her teleport, that leaves her open for Kirby to attack.
C) Kirby as a stone can switch back to regular Kirby. Once a Luma is a star, it's permanent.

How are black holes "unreliable"? Starman would last long enough to get Kirby into a black hole. If you can prove that Crash would be a one-shot attack to Rosalina with a Starman (note that mini-bosses aren't invincible like a Starman user), then I'll reconsider. For now, though, just because it OHKOs Kirby enemies doesn't mean it'll OHKO Rosalina.

Black holes are unreliable because they can suck up Rosalina, whether she has a Starman or not. And a Starman user isn't invincible to one-shot attacks. Several Kirby enemies die in two hits, just like Rosalina, and Crash OHKO'S them, so they'd OHKO regular Rosalina. Anything that OHKO'S regular Rosalina OHKO's Invincible Rosalina.

And Alvis can, as shown by the cutscene where he's shown using the Monado to teach Shulk a new technique or something along those lines (I think it was brought up previously in the thread).

The Wisps can do things by themselves, too. Alvis has never done anything as powerful as resetting the universe without a command from Shulk.

It's an authority thing. A construction worker operating a crane has quite a bit of power at his disposal, but he'll only do what his boss/commander/whoever's giving him orders tells him to.

And if the worker knows that it's the right thing to do, he'll go ahead and do it. If a swarm of bees enters the construction site, he's not going to wait for the boss to tell him to use bug spray.

It's a question of who would win in a fight, so they should be taken into account. Either way "behave" can mean more than personality and such; it just means to act in a certain way.

Well, there's not anything showing Mewtwo wouldn't do that anyways.[/quote]

 

[ShadowLBlue]

She can also just grapple beam him instead of his shield. Weight wouldn't be a problem since, well, in this video, she tosses Vorash using nothing but grapple beam without much effort and it dies upon colliding with the wall...That is unless Link is somehow (probably with iron boots) a lot heavier than a giant lava fish a lot bigger than Ridley. But then how does he even moves without sinking into the ground?

Link has iron mitts that let him lift incredibly large/heavy objects. I think he might have a little more grip on his item than a Space Pirate.

Besides that, Link really has no counter to things like the Super Missiles, Ice Beam, Shinespark, Power Bomb, and especially the Screw Attack. Link has a number of items to use, but nothing that trumps anything Samus has. Samus' superhuman agility and reflexes also mean that any melee attacks could be rendered useless...so seems to win the fight either way.

All of those can be countered with Nayru's Love, Magic Cape or Hylian Shield. His magic cape/magic armor + chateau Romani/250k rupees counters her items with invincibility.
As versatile as is, he's just outclassed in this fight. Samus' superior agility, more powerful weaponry and incredible strength will be one hell of a fight for Link to deal with, especially in close-quarters combat. Considering Samus has survived being scrapped against metal walls while inside of a metal suit (which should become boiling hot), intense whiplash and all sorts of things that would kill the average person, she's just as durable as Link, if not moreso...so overall, I don't see Link winning this; especially because Samus is in her Varia Suit (which renders stuff like Fire Arrows useless, since the Varia Suit protects Samus from heat).

So really, I'm erring on Samus to pull out the victor in this match.

If Ridley's fire attacks hurt her in varia suit so will his fire arrows. I only give Samus the edge because of speed booster and X-Ray. Of course I acknowledge without the magic cape/magic armor + chateau Romani/250k rupees for Link, I'd give Samus more than a slight edge. TBH I'm still on the fence about whether Samus can avoid Link for several days...

The black hole only harms Samus if she comes into direct contact with it. The event horizon, however, is rather large and she's not affected in any way with that. I once thought the black hole didn't harm Samus until I was fighting Nightmare and he launched it right at me. I was all, "What the heck?" If I could find how powerful this black hole was, I'd be able to demonstrate what Samus isn't affected against.

Man Nightmare brings back memories...probably the 2nd or 3rd hardest boss in that game. Always hated his black hole attack. Now that I think about it, he'd make a fun boss in Smash.

I tend to take general statements as that. I don't take them to define what degree the damage can be prevented. The reason why I say this is because I've seen where statements are general and then learn that it's truly not the case. For example, in the Super Metroid manual, it says that the speed booster makes Samus invincible, yet she can be stopped by a few things in SM, as well as things in MOM. During this "invincible" state, Samus still receives heat damage as well if she has the varia or gravity suit off.

I understand. You're right that we don't know if Link can survive an anti-matter beam, but but as I've said almost a dozen times, lore should be taken as truth except for any exceptions that can be found. The person who doubts lore needs to go and find examples of exceptions. I understand you have a philosophical view on this but almost everyone else here has a legal, meaning the doubter needs to prove what's written as fact isn't totally true.

The reason why I decided to go ahead with what the Nintendo's player guide said about the buzz blob was because I wanted to really show you and ShadowLBlue that I was trying to be as objective as possible for the match-up between Samus and Link.

I'm over that, you seem to be being objective to me.

Well, titanium is not harder than steel, but it is tougher, I think. If Link has his seed satchel from the OoX games, then he might be able to harm Mega Man with the ember seeds. It looks like those can vaporize enemies.

We've seen Mega man harmed by many attacks clearly weaker than any of Link's weapons though.

Alvis is a person with his own consciousness. He's outside help. That's like Paper Mario being allowed to use the Star Spirits.

It's not so much consciousness as are they a tool. Pixls and Wisp are conscious but (at least the former) were literaly made for sake of being tools so they're allowed. Meanwhile Star Spirits assisting more is more like calling for help.

Well, if you point a gun at someone and close your eyes, it'll still hit them. Just because the enemy cannot see Link doesn't mean that their arrows would pass right through him; there must be some sort of intangibility/invulnerability going on here.

I've already said Link's intangible. I don't really understand what you're arguing about. If you're wondering how he can be intangible but not fall through the Earth or why he can't go through walls, the former is required secondary power (just google Kitty from X-men, she has the same thing although from what I read hers is stronger than Link's) and the latter is a game mechanic. Just like how in Metroid Fusion SA-X could literally blow open a locked door with a Super Misslie but your Super Missiles don't do that.

@ Kirby Dragons
I actually changed my mind several post ago. I do think Alvis counts as a power but he's a separate enough conscious entity to be banned from helping.
And muno (i believe) isn't saying mind control wouldn't work, I think he's saying psychic attacks that do damage like Psychic (and some non-damaging Psychic moves like Telekinesis) wouldn't work.
And Link can equip Magic Armor pretty much instantly so I disagree, although I don't know if it would block mind control.

 

[Crystanium]

I see. So Samus likely wouldn't survive a supermassive black hole, since the Gravity Suit has been shown to still get damaged by that sort of thing.

I'm not sure. Just because a black hole isn't large, doesn't mean it's extremely dense. I only know of the Schwarzschild radius, but I'm not sure how to convert the radius so that I end up with the mass instead. The equation is rs = 2GM/c^2.

It's a different matter if there's been shown to be exceptions to the rule, but that's not the case with the Green Holy Ring.

You're then extrapolating. We've been through this before.

Out of curiosity, what were those numbers like at the time the game was made? I'd imagine things would change quite a bit using those numbers, after all.

I'm not sure. I think I looked up something like "what is the population of a small city" on Google.

Link wouldn't really need to react, since the lightning attracts towards his sword (as shown by the fact that holding it up absorbs attacks from in front of Link).

Only because he's holding it above him.

I'd imagine it would stack; it makes sense with how it functions if you think about it. Link touches lava, he gets damaged. If the Magic Armor subtracts that amount of heat, then he doesn't get damaged.

I don't think so. I'd imagine it more like the magic armor is a space shuttle that prevents harm from the ozone layer and the blue holy ring as space suit. Except it's the other way. The blue holy ring prevents greater heat, whereas the magic armor only demonstrates withstanding 700 centigrade. It's only "stacked" in that respect, but not as if it adds 700 to the 1,200+ so as to make it 1,900+ centigrade immunity.

They are the same universe, but since they're in different games, we can't put Link wearing the Magic Armor next to a powder keg to test if it would withstand the blow.

Of course not, so we cannot assume Link's bombs are equal to that of Samus' super missiles.

Well, if you point a gun at someone and close your eyes, it'll still hit them. Just because the enemy cannot see Link doesn't mean that their arrows would pass right through him; there must be some sort of intangibility/invulnerability going on here.

Well, I'm not sure what's going on, but if it's becoming an issue, I'll point out that the Chozo ghosts phase in and out of existence, and with the x-ray visor tracking them, Samus can still harm them with the power beam.

Could you provide a video please? I'm curious.

Sure.

I brought up the Hookshot mainly to demonstrate Link's grip, rather than how he could use the Hookshot against Samus. The Grapple Beam seems to have an advantage in that regard, but how long is it?

I know. It can go either way for Samus or Link. The grapple beam can probably reach 10 meters (32.8 feet). Maybe a little longer. See the distance between Samus and the grapple point?

I actually own Wind Waker HD thanks to the Mario Kart 8 Club Nintendo deal, so I could test this tomorrow.

That'd be helpful.

Yes, but using in-game data, a few good hits will defeat Mega Man.

In-game data from what?

Seeing as how Rosalina is rather focused and keeps her cool even in dire situations, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. That said, most people would likely be caught off guard by this.

I don't think it's a matter of one keeping their cool. Unless Rosalina has taught herself to ignore pain, she will react negatively to it. I'm not saying Kirby will win, but if you've ever had an ambulance pass by you, I'm sure it wasn't very pleasant.

I understand. You're right that we don't know if Link can survive an anti-matter beam, but but as I've said almost a dozen times, lore should be taken as truth except for any exceptions that can be found. The person who doubts lore needs to go and find examples of exceptions. I understand you have a philosophical view on this but almost everyone else here has a legal, meaning the doubter needs to prove what's written as fact isn't totally true.

Well, the description doesn't tell us what kind of enemy attacks or that it protects Link from all enemy attacks. It just tells us that it protects Link from enemy attacks. I don't expect to find anything in the series where any of the attacks are going to harm Link, but that's not a basis for assuming all things. Anyway, I mentioned Samus has the wave beam, which passes through transparent and translucent things, according to the official site, the manual, the inventory screen and on-screen. The only exceptions were Ridley's barrier and the Queen Metroid. Maybe they're denser. That's one reason why x-rays cannot pass through lead.

I'm over that, you seem to be being objective to me.

Well I'm glad.

We've seen Mega man harmed by many attacks clearly weaker than any of Link's weapons though.

I think part of that may be the way game play is, or Mega Man's skeletal structure is made of the ceramic titanium. The latter could explain why Mega Man is vulnerable to a number of attacks.

I've already said Link's intangible. I don't really understand what you're arguing about. If you're wondering how he can be intangible but not fall through the Earth or why he can't go through walls, the former is required secondary power (just google Kitty from X-men, she has the same thing although from what I read hers is stronger than Link's) and the latter is a game mechanic. Just like how in Metroid Fusion SA-X could literally blow open a locked door with a Super Misslie but your Super Missiles don't do that.

I was going to compare Link to Kitty Pryde earlier for an explanation as to why Link doesn't get harmed by spikes. My assumption was going to be that he could float. If you're going to assert that the latter is a game mechanic, you'll need to prove that instead of just asserting it. I can understand the part where SA-X can destroy walls and doors, but Samus' doesn't function that way. That at least is a reason. The former is scripted, the latter is game play. Link's ability to walk on spikes, but not pass through walls is not scripted, but both take place in game play.

Here's my assumption, though, and tell me what you guys think because I'm geeking out over here with this new idea I have. Maybe the magic cape prevents damage from sword, spears, arrows, spikes, and whatever other sharp object because the surface area is smaller, whereas the ground and walls have a wider surface area, preventing Link from falling or passing through.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

If Ridley's fire attacks hurt her in varia suit so will his fire arrows. I only give Samus the edge because of speed booster and X-Ray. Of course I acknowledge without the magic cape/magic armor + chateau Romani/250k rupees for Link, I'd give Samus more than a slight edge. TBH I'm still on the fence about whether Samus can avoid Link for several days...

Ridley's "fire breath" is actually plasma, much like the Plasma Beam. And Samus has superhuman agility, anyways; add on that she can use SenseMove to dodge any of Link's projectiles and fire a Charge Shot in response, and the Varia Suit's resistance to heat and the Fire Arrows become useless.

And if Samus can survive the dangerous planet Zebes for 11 years in a row, than she'll be more than capable of avoiding Link for several days, really.

 

[Crystanium]

Ridley's "fire breath" is actually plasma, much like the Plasma Beam. And Samus has superhuman agility, anyways; add on that she can use SenseMove to dodge any of Link's projectiles and fire a Charge Shot in response, and the Varia Suit's resistance to heat and the Fire Arrows become useless.

And if Samus can survive the dangerous planet Zebes for 11 years in a row, than she'll be more than capable of avoiding Link for several days, really.

Ridley's plasma is more like the plasma beam portrayed in Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption than it is in the 2D games.

The varia suit is resistant to convection, but not flames or liquids like magma and lava. Fire arrows are at least producing 1,000°C, which is the temperature of a typical candle flame. Don't be so dismissive of their power.

I can see your point on Samus surviving a few days, though. If Samus needs to get away, she could. She could make use of her knowledge acquired in the Galactic Federation Army.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

That reminds me; how big is the in-game Other M Ridley model compared to Samus, anyways? Using what I could, I got a height of around 12-14 feet, using Samus as a guideline; but that's just an estimation. The in-game model might be totally different from my scale, so seeing how big he is right out of Other M could be interesting.

If he is 14 feet, that would make him (if we assume that he is at least 100 pounds at Samus' size) around 1,400 lbs, or basically 1 and a quarter tonnes. Vorash is roughly the size of a large humpback whale using the models as a basis, so if we use similar weights that makes Vorash between 30-50 tonnes; and Samus tossed Vorash like he was nothing, meaning that probably wasn't even her full strength. If we use Vorash as a baseline, Samus could probably toss around something around 80-100 tonnes with little effort, and 100-400 if she was trying; 500+ tonnes would need some effort, but she could probably manage it. Keep in mind that Samus is only 198 pounds, too; that is astronomical strength.

I'll show size comparison later, but remember that he is both very thin (he has some muscle mass on arms, legs and wings, but you can see his ribs and pelvis bone among other things) and he is a flying creature, so, he must be light for his size.

Link has iron mitts that let him lift incredibly large/heavy objects. I think he might have a little more grip on his item than a Space Pirate.

Of course. That wasn't what i was talking about. I was saying that she could throw him. Turns out it won't work well unless it wasn't expected.

If Ridley's fire attacks hurt her in varia suit so will his fire arrows. I only give Samus the edge because of speed booster and X-Ray. Of course I acknowledge without the magic cape/magic armor + chateau Romani/250k rupees for Link, I'd give Samus more than a slight edge. TBH I'm still on the fence about whether Samus can avoid Link for several days...

Keep in mind that his fire, even when uncharged, could melt down wall on Geothermal Powerplant after 1-3 seconds. Well, it didn't actually started to go down like a liquid, but it became so easy to bend he could break it down in one charge, something he failed to do few seconds before (but not on purpose) after failed attempt to grab Samus. He also burned down bridge to the main platform within seconds. Material used for both walls and bridge should be both very hard to break (if Super Missiles do nothing) and resistant to heat since, well, would you keep water in paper bag or glass container? And it most likely isn't actual FIRE he uses. It also seems to deal some knockback too since Samus gets knocked out of his grasp if he fully charges his fire breath after grinding her on the wall and she gets knocked back when he uses a shorter stream of fire when she gets too close. So, its not a fair/right/proper comparison (Ridley's "fire" breath and Link's fire arrows).

 

[Crystanium]

So, its not a fair/right/proper comparison (Ridley's "fire" breath and Link's fire arrows).

Most definitely not.

That's a white hot flame. That should be reaching 5,000 K (4,726.85°C) according to color temperature. Not only does Ridley make it ductile, he busts through at least 3.66 meters and this isn't the first time. My point was that Samus cannot withstand this temperature, either. Flames still harm her at a lower degree. The last time I checked, though, Dragotix's blue flame (the hottest flame) only does 70 damage on Samus before her varia and gravity features.