Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[BaganSmashBros]

The limited usage is added to games to prevent you from beating them too easily. If there is someone with a hax attack limited by points or whatever, that just means that they are powerful and should go on top of the list.

"Running out of energy" is something that machines do. It doesn't make sense for someone to run out of it, at least, not without them regaining it after resting. And if Mewtwo in your example was out of psychic energy, then why could he still use Confusion or his other psychic moves? He wouldn't really be out of psychic energy.

RPGs are full of game mechanics, and we should remove all of them. If they actually made sense, they'd appear in more kinds of video games. With game mechanics on, Mario can throw an indefinite amount of fireballs and attack an indefinite amount of time before his opponent. Neither of those apply when RPG mechanics are on.

Running out of magic, just getting too tired to use something so powerful, etc. works too. They do regain it by resting of course. It is fiction, so, those characters can run out of whatever type of energy is used. If we remove this mechanic, then why not remove ammo limit too? It pretty much is the same thing. Lets also allow Samus to spam power bombs (even if we will use those limited by ammo rather than restricted by cooldown), Sonic Booms, Annihilator Beam, etc, allow Link to walk around with Magic Cape without even using that booze (it certainly is not milk because i've never seen milk do such things), allow Mega Man to use any of the weapons infinitely, etc. Ammo is pretty much same thing as MP, PP, etc.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Like I said earlier, items like missiles or bombs should actually be limited, because it doesn't make sense to have an infinite amount of them. If I run out of arm energy by punching a tree, then I wouldn't have arm energy left to lift a table. Likewise, if Mewtwo ran out of energy from a psychic attack, then why could he still use another psychic attack, like Psystrike or Psyshock?

And people can still run out of energy, but they can regain it by stopping what they're doing. If Mewtwo uses Psychic for three of its uses, and then doesn't use Psychic for an hour, he doesn't get any uses back. That shows that it isn't like running out of energy in real life.

Plus, some moves wouldn't require energy. Rest, for example. The user goes to sleep. Doesn't exactly take energy, yet it's limited the same way as something that would take energy. Once again, proving that points and a real life energy limit aren't the same thing.

 

[Munomario777]

Like I said earlier, items like missiles or bombs should actually be limited, because it doesn't make sense to have an infinite amount of them. If I run out of arm energy by punching a tree, then I wouldn't have arm energy left to lift a table. Likewise, if Mewtwo ran out of energy from a psychic attack, then why could he still use another psychic attack, like Psystrike or Psyshock?

Because each one has a different function. Psychic lowers the opponent's attack, and Confusion, well, confuses the opponent. These could very well be handled by different psychic organs (whereas punching a tree and lifting a table are both handled by the arms).

And people can still run out of energy, but they can regain it by stopping what they're doing. If Mewtwo uses Psychic for three of its uses, and then doesn't use Psychic for an hour, he doesn't get any uses back. That shows that it isn't like running out of energy in real life.

You don't regain energy by just taking a break; you regain energy by eating food and such. Food is to humans as PP Up/Max is to Pokemon.

Plus, some moves wouldn't require energy. Rest, for example. The opponent goes to sleep. Doesn't exactly take energy, yet it's limited the same way as something that would take energy. Once again, proving that points and a real life energy limit aren't the same thing.

Except Rest also heals the user, which would require some energy.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Because each one has a different function. Psychic lowers the opponent's attack, and Confusion, well, confuses the opponent. These could very well be handled by different psychic organs (whereas punching a tree and lifting a table are both handled by the arms).

And Psystrike/Psyshock? They're both psychic attacks. And I don't think a Pokemon would have enough organs for every single move they know. They'd have to be tiny, and if that were true, they wouldn't provide much support for the move it's in charge of. And we also have things like Bullet Punch/Mach Punch, both of which use the fist, and both have separate PP meters.

You don't regain energy by just taking a break; you regain energy by eating food and such. Food is to humans as PP Up/Max is to Pokemon.

Except you do regain energy by taking a break. That's pretty much what breaks are for.

Except Rest also heals the user, which would require some energy.

Sleeping restores energy as well, and you don't regain PP. If it was actual energy, it would be restored.

 

[Munomario777]

And Psystrike/Psyshock? They're both psychic attacks. And I don't think a Pokemon would have enough organs for every single move they know. They'd have to be tiny, and if that were true, they wouldn't provide much support for the move it's in charge of. And we also have things like Bullet Punch/Mach Punch, both of which use the fist, and both have separate PP meters.

Psystrike and Psyshock aren't usually learned by one Pokemon at the same time. Only Mewtwo can learn Psystrike, while Psyshock is more widespread. Mewtwo can learn Psyshock via a TM, but that's not natural. As for the punches, a likely explanation is that one uses the right hand while the other uses the left hand.

EDIT: As for the organs deal, in the games, Pokemon only know four moves at a time. We're removing limits in interest of covering all aspects, and while the organs might not fit at that point, neither would all of Pit's 50+ weapons.

Except you do regain energy by taking a break. That's pretty much what breaks are for.

No, you don't. Your body processes food into energy over time (via digestion and such), and that gives more energy to your organs as time goes on, but there's really no energy entering your body just because you're sleeping.

Sleeping restores energy as well, and you don't regain PP. If it was actual energy, it would be restored.

See above.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Psystrike and Psyshock aren't usually learned by one Pokemon at the same time. Only Mewtwo can learn Psystrike, while Psyshock is more widespread. Mewtwo can learn Psyshock via a TM, but that's not natural. As for the punches, a likely explanation is that one uses the right hand while the other uses the left hand.

EDIT: As for the organs deal, in the games, Pokemon only know four moves at a time. We're removing limits in interest of covering all aspects, and while the organs might not fit at that point, neither would all of Pit's 50+ weapons.

That explanation is wrong, because Bullet Punch and Mach Punch both use the same hand. Also, psychic powers use the brain, not other organs.

No, you don't. Your body processes food into energy over time (via digestion and such), and that gives more energy to your organs as time goes on, but there's really no energy entering your body just because you're sleeping.

Actually, you do. There's a man that went three days without eating or drinking, and he was still able to move around and do whatever. Food and drinks aren't the only source of energy.

We're just talking about Pokemon, by the way. What about the trainers? If the RPG used an actual energy system, then why can the trainer indefinitely pull items out of his bag, run around, give orders, etc.?
The PP of certain moves don't really make sense for the move. I can punch something 150 times without losing too much energy, so why doesn't Pound have 150 PP?
Not to mention, they're called "points". Not "energy", but "points".

 

[Munomario777]

That explanation is wrong, because Bullet Punch and Mach Punch both use the same hand. Also, psychic powers use the brain, not other organs.

The moves are identical save for the fact that one was introduced later in the series. Thus, for the sake of this discussion, we can simply fuse them into one move (which they practically are in the games, except they take up two slots). Lifting an apple uses the brain as well (your brain commands your arm), but the arm is doing the heavy lifting. A similar concept applies here.

Actually, you do. There's a man that went three days without eating or drinking, and he was still able to move around and do whatever. Food and drinks aren't the only source of energy.

So? Just because a car can go a week without refilling its gas tank doesn't mean that it's getting its energy from another source.

We're just talking about Pokemon, by the way. What about the trainers? If the RPG used an actual energy system, then why can the trainer indefinitely pull items out of his bag, run around, give orders, etc.?

For the same reason there isn't a tiring-out mechanic in Super Mario Brothers; it's not necessary for the gameplay and would only drag it out if anything, so it was excluded from the games. It's a matter of game mechanics (or lack thereof).

The PP of certain moves don't really make sense for the move. I can punch something 150 times without losing too much energy, so why doesn't Pound have 150 PP?

Because not every Pokemon has a physique matching yours. Did you actually punch something 150 times to get that result, by the way?

Not to mention, they're called "points". Not "energy", but "points".

And this matters because...? Also, they're called "PP", or "Power Points". "Power" as in "energy".

 

[Kirby Dragons]

The moves are identical save for the fact that one was introduced later in the series. Thus, for the sake of this discussion, we can simply fuse them into one move (which they practically are in the games, except they take up two slots). Lifting an apple uses the brain as well (your brain commands your arm), but the arm is doing the heavy lifting. A similar concept applies here.

For the sake of your argument, you mean? BP and MP take up separate slots. Once the PP for one runs out, you still have PP for an identical move, meaning you didn't actually run out of hand strength from punching. And what about a Pokemon with Mach Punch, Pound, Dig, and Stone Edge? All of these use the right hand. If you run out of PP for one, you can continue to use right-handed moves. And even if you run out of PP for all of them, the Pokemon can still hold items. With its right hand.

So? Just because a car can go a week without refilling its gas tank doesn't mean that it's getting its energy from another source.

So you're saying the man had three days of using energy without gaining any more? Pokemon can't use three days of power points without gaining more, so they're not energy.

Because not every Pokemon has a physique matching yours. Did you actually punch something 150 times to get that result, by the way?

Yeah, a lot of them are fighters that fight physically on a regular basis. You really think I have more energy than they do?

And no, but I went and punched something after you said that. 207 times.

And this matters because...? Also, they're called "PP", or "Power Points". "Power" as in "energy".

And energy isn't measured in points. "Power" in the name is referring to the powers of the moves.

 

[Munomario777]

For the sake of your argument, you mean? BP and MP take up separate slots. Once the PP for one runs out, you still have PP for an identical move, meaning you didn't actually run out of hand strength from punching. And what about a Pokemon with Mach Punch, Pound, Dig, and Stone Edge? All of these use the right hand. If you run out of PP for one, you can continue to use right-handed moves. And even if you run out of PP for all of them, the Pokemon can still hold items. With its right hand.

No, for the sake of the discussion as a whole. There's no point in listing them separately since they function identically, and are pretty much two different names for the same move, so for simplicity's sake we can combine them.

^That is the animation for Stone Edge. Doesn't really look like attacking with the right hand to me. Likewise, burrowing into the ground doesn't require a right hand specifically (the left hand, tail, etc. would work just fine), and Pound's in-game description mentions forelegs, tails, and the like. Seeing as how armless Pokemon can still hold items, it's safe to assume that the right hand isn't needed to hold items.

So you're saying the man had three days of using energy without gaining any more? Pokemon can't use three days of power points without gaining more, so they're not energy.

People can survive three days without water, and three weeks without food. Those are our main energy sources other than the occasional sunlight and such.

Yeah, a lot of them are fighters that fight physically on a regular basis. You really think I have more energy than they do?

No, but they're distributing their energy into four different moves. Not to mention that theirs deal quite a bit of damage to enemies.

And no, but I went and punched something after you said that. 207 times.

Okay, just curious.

And energy isn't measured in points. "Power" in the name is referring to the powers of the moves.

Who says energy can't be measured in points? It doesn't make much sense to interpret the "Power" as the attributes of the moves. Take Sing, for example. Replacing "Power" with the effect of the move gives us "Sleep Points". What exactly is a sleep point? You'd think that it would mean the effectiveness, duration, etc. of the move's sleeping properties, but no, apparently "Sleep" means "amount of times the move can be used". See what I mean? Doesn't make much sense.

 

[Crystanium]

And the harm from magma mostly stems from heat. The Magic Armor negates said heat, and any excess heat would go to the ring.

I see what you're saying now. However, I've been understanding you as though you were saying that because magic armor protects Link from magma and the blue holy ring protects Link from flames, that this must add up so Link can withstand 1,900+ centigrade. If this is what you're saying, then that's faulty. If for whatever reason the magic armor came into contact with magma that was 1,500 centigrade, it doesn't follow that the magic armor and blue holy ring would protect Link from this because the magic armor "absorbed" the 700 centigrade.

Let me put it another way. Say you're in a gyroscopic device made out of reinforced carbon-carbon. Let's also assume that you're wearing a protective suit made of reinforced carbon-carbon. This material can stand up to at least 2,000 centigrade. (It's used for space shuttles.) Does this mean that because your gyroscopic device you're traveling in and your protective suit can both stand up to 2,000 centigrade, that you can withstand 4,000 centigrade? We should be able to travel the Sun if that were the case.

If Link fell into magma that was 1,500 centigrade, he'd die because he doesn't have anything that protects him from this temperature. If for whatever reason Link fell into magma that was 1,100 centigrade and had his magic armor active, for all we know (because we don't know the temperature it can withstand) the magic armor would cease working, but Link's blue holy ring would come into effect and protect him from the 1,100 centigrade temperature because it's not 1,200+ centigrade.

Such as? You're working with the speed and power items stacking, after all.

Of course I am because realistically you can wear gauntlets and rings without one obstructing the other. You cannot be in a space shuttle that protects you from the ozone layer and a space suit and assume that these total up so that you can exceed 2,000 centigrade.

I'm pretty sure it's a hacked game, but this video has something similar. If you own Wind Waker, I performed this on Dragon Roost Island before the dungeon entrance (where the bridge is broken and you have to flood the area to swim across the gap), so you could try it for yourself.

That was awesome! I don't own WW, but my brother does. We live in separate states, however, so . . . Link didn't take damage. Any reason?

I see. How does that compare to Samus's Missile?

Her missiles? I'm not sure. They don't produce a quake like the super missiles do, so I cannot determine it.

Also, I feel like I should point out that since Wind Waker doesn't possess any defense upgrades, the quarter-heart of damage without the Magic Armor would be reduced even further by his defense upgrades.

That's fine, but that doesn't tell me anything.

Yes, in real life, a wrench thrown like that would either have to travel faster or would fall almost immediately; but games aren't real life. Cutscenes, lore, gameplay, etc. rule out real-life physics. In real life, hedgehogs cannot run beyond the speed of sound. In real life, eating a mushroom doesn't make you grow twice your current height. In real life, curling into a ball with electricity flying everywhere doesn't let you fly. But games aren't real life, so we take it as-is. Even though Dark Samus might be able to shoot faster than that, she didn't in the cutscene in question.

We're using the laws of physics for other things and that doesn't bother you in the slightest. I've already demonstrated that projectiles will travel slower in visual media, while the texts themselves indicate these projectiles travel faster.

 

[Munomario777]

I see what you're saying now. However, I've been understanding you as though you were saying that because magic armor protects Link from magma and the blue holy ring protects Link from flames, that this must add up so Link can withstand 1,900+ centigrade. If this is what you're saying, then that's faulty. If for whatever reason the magic armor came into contact with magma that was 1,500 centigrade, it doesn't follow that the magic armor and blue holy ring would protect Link from this because the magic armor "absorbed" the 700 centigrade.

Let me put it another way. Say you're in a gyroscopic device made out of reinforced carbon-carbon. Let's also assume that you're wearing a protective suit made of reinforced carbon-carbon. This material can stand up to at least 2,000 centigrade. (It's used for space shuttles.) Does this mean that because your gyroscopic device you're traveling in and your protective suit can both stand up to 2,000 centigrade, that you can withstand 4,000 centigrade? We should be able to travel the Sun if that were the case.

If Link fell into magma that was 1,500 centigrade, he'd die because he doesn't have anything that protects him from this temperature. If for whatever reason Link fell into magma that was 1,100 centigrade and had his magic armor active, for all we know (because we don't know the temperature it can withstand) the magic armor would cease working, but Link's blue holy ring would come into effect and protect him from the 1,100 centigrade temperature because it's not 1,200+ centigrade.

Of course I am because realistically you can wear gauntlets and rings without one obstructing the other. You cannot be in a space shuttle that protects you from the ozone layer and a space suit and assume that these total up so that you can exceed 2,000 centigrade.

Is there a scientific reason for why this happens? Or rather, is there an explanation for it? I don't think the Magic Armor would just "stop working"; that doesn't really happen in the Zelda games (unless Link runs out of Rupees).

That was awesome! I don't own WW, but my brother does. We live in separate states, however, so . . . Link didn't take damage. Any reason?

Well, as I said, that appears to be a hacked game. Seeing as how Link doesn't have Magic Armor equipped in the video, his invulnerability seems to be a result of said hacking. It's mostly for the spectacle of it all really.

Her missiles? I'm not sure. They don't produce a quake like the super missiles do, so I cannot determine it.

I'm not sure the earthquake calculation you did earlier was 100% accurate, since the planets in Metroid would likely be different in that regard. Did you ever do a calculation for their power based on what they do to enemies, obstacles, etc.?

That's fine, but that doesn't tell me anything.

Okay, using the maximum of 20 Heart Containers, Link could take a quarter heart (or eight bombs/a pit of lava's worth) of damage 80 times before dying/having to be revived by a fairy (20 hearts * 4 quarters in a heart = 80). Since this is without his various defense boosting upgrades, it's safe to say that Link could take a few Missiles and still be able to fight Samus.

We're using the laws of physics for other things and that doesn't bother you in the slightest. I've already demonstrated that projectiles will travel slower in visual media, while the texts themselves indicate these projectiles travel faster.

We're using the laws of physics in other areas because they don't contradict the games. We aren't told how hot Zora fireballs are, so there's no contradiction to be had and real life science is used. We are shown how fast Rocky Wrenches' wrenches travel, and it contradicts with real life, so we don't use real life science.

 

[Crystanium]

Is there a scientific reason for why this happens? Or rather, is there an explanation for it? I don't think the Magic Armor would just "stop working"; that doesn't really happen in the Zelda games (unless Link runs out of Rupees).

A scientific reason why having one thing inside another capable of withstanding 2,000 centigrade and not adding up to a total of 4,000 centigrade?

I'm going off the idea that the magic armor has a limit, since nothing is limitless.

I'm not sure the earthquake calculation you did earlier was 100% accurate, since the planets in Metroid would likely be different in that regard. Did you ever do a calculation for their power based on what they do to enemies, obstacles, etc.?

I don't see the issue, considering quakes occur on other planets than Earth. I can't say I ever tried that.

Okay, using the maximum of 20 Heart Containers, Link could take a quarter heart (or eight bombs/a pit of lava's worth) of damage 80 times before dying/having to be revived by a fairy (20 hearts * 4 quarters in a heart = 80). Since this is without his various defense boosting upgrades, it's safe to say that Link could take a few Missiles and still be able to fight Samus.

I'm not using health meters, though. There's no way to determine what 1 heart container is equivalent to in joules.

We're using the laws of physics in other areas because they don't contradict the games. We aren't told how hot Zora fireballs are, so there's no contradiction to be had and real life science is used. We are shown how fast Rocky Wrenches' wrenches travel, and it contradicts with real life, so we don't use real life science.

But it's a fireball, regardless. Nevertheless, those wrenches would be traveling faster. Again, Beepboxer fires sound waves at Mario and he can dodge them. Just because they don't travel the speed of sound in the game is irrelevant. I'll use the same argument many people use for Sonic. If Sonic actually traveled the speed of sound, no one would be able to play the Sonic games and the levels would be too short.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

No, for the sake of the discussion as a whole. There's no point in listing them separately since they function identically, and are pretty much two different names for the same move, so for simplicity's sake we can combine them.

^That is the animation for Stone Edge. Doesn't really look like attacking with the right hand to me. Likewise, burrowing into the ground doesn't require a right hand specifically (the left hand, tail, etc. would work just fine), and Pound's in-game description mentions forelegs, tails, and the like. Seeing as how armless Pokemon can still hold items, it's safe to assume that the right hand isn't needed to hold items.

Bullet/Mach Punch are just proof towards my case. We can ignore one in certain discussions, yet I'm pulling what it is exactly from the games. Digging could be used with a left hand, but a tail wouldn't work. And when the Pokémon use it, they use their right hand, as well as their left hand (it wouldn't make much sense to dig using just one hand).

No, but they're distributing their energy into four different moves. Not to mention that theirs deal quite a bit of damage to enemies.

Yet, the PP for all their moves combined doesn't equal 207.

Who says energy can't be measured in points? It doesn't make much sense to interpret the "Power" as the attributes of the moves. Take Sing, for example. Replacing "Power" with the effect of the move gives us "Sleep Points". What exactly is a sleep point? You'd think that it would mean the effectiveness, duration, etc. of the move's sleeping properties, but no, apparently "Sleep" means "amount of times the move can be used". See what I mean? Doesn't make much sense.

If energy was measured in points, different amounts of points would be required for different things. Explosion does much more damage than Pound in one usage for each, yet they both use one point.

Every Pokémon is limited by similar amounts of PP, so you're basically saying that a turtle (Squirtle) has the same amount of energy as a universal creator (Arceus).

 

[Munomario777]

A scientific reason why having one thing inside another capable of withstanding 2,000 centigrade and not adding up to a total of 4,000 centigrade?

I'm going off the idea that the magic armor has a limit, since nothing is limitless.

I agree that the Magic Armor has limits; I'm asking why the effects of it and the ring wouldn't stack.

I don't see the issue, considering quakes occur on other planets than Earth. I can't say I ever tried that.

While quakes may occur on other planets, factors such as the planet's size, density, structure, etc. would likely make the calculations for earthquakes on, well, Earth somewhat inaccurate, no?

I'm not using health meters, though. There's no way to determine what 1 heart container is equivalent to in joules.

We can use it to determine how much of a beating Link could take, though. In this case, Link could withstand an eight-bomb explosion about eighty times in a row, and his defensive upgrades would just increase that durability.

But it's a fireball, regardless.

Yes, one which we haven't been given an official heat measurement for and thus we resort to real-life science to find out.

Nevertheless, those wrenches would be traveling faster.

...if it was real life, which it's not.

Again, Beepboxer fires sound waves at Mario and he can dodge them. Just because they don't travel the speed of sound in the game is irrelevant. I'll use the same argument many people use for Sonic. If Sonic actually traveled the speed of sound, no one would be able to play the Sonic games and the levels would be too short.

It's not irrelevant. We are discussing games, so games (and the events that take place in them) are not irrelevant. The difference with Sonic is that he's been said in lore multiple times to be travelling at the speed of sound/hypersonic speeds/speed of light/etc., whereas the only thing we've been told about Beepboxer's blasts is that they are sound, or vibrations in the air. This doesn't necessarily mean that they travel at 340.29 m/s.

Bullet/Mach Punch are just proof towards my case. We can ignore one in certain discussions, yet I'm pulling what it is exactly from the games. Digging could be used with a left hand, but a tail wouldn't work. And when the Pokémon use it, they use their right hand, as well as their left hand (it wouldn't make much sense to dig using just one hand).

I've actually just now noticed something. Bullet Punch is a Steel type attack, while Mach Punch is Fighting type. This means that one has steel powers making it effective against different types than the other. Due to their different typing, this likely means that they would have a different source for their power.

Yet, the PP for all their moves combined doesn't equal 207.

Because their attacks are stronger than yours, and thus use more energy, and thus have less uses (which is what PP represents).

If energy was measured in points, different amounts of points would be required for different things. Explosion does much more damage than Pound in one usage for each, yet they both use one point.

Pound PP =/= Explosion PP. Each PP represents one use. Pound has 35 PP (or is light enough on energy so that it can be used more), while Explosion only has 5 PP (or uses much more energy and cannot be used as much).

Every Pokémon is limited by similar amounts of PP, so you're basically saying that a turtle (Squirtle) has the same amount of energy as a universal creator (Arceus).

Arceus's stats are higher than Squirtle's stats. This means that each attack deals more damage, and thus each PP is worth more to Arceus than to Squirtle. The attacks deal more damage (and thus take more energy per use), and Arceus possesses more energy than Squirtle. These balance out to equal the same amount of uses per move, even though one Pokemon's move is stronger than that same move on another Pokemon.

 

[Nerdicon]

4) OPEN-MINDEDNESS
We need to be able to adapt the rules to suit recent findings. There should be a vote from each active member, and whichever option gets more votes should be used.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seems thoughts have changed haven't they?

Anyway what I think about a revised ruleset:
1) The battlefield is a 10x10x10 mile area made of concrete surrounded by a 15x15x15 casing of completely indestructible material (so no running away)

2) If a character is forced into a situation in that they cannot retaliate, the match should be treated as a stalemate until decided on by the people

3) A vote is in order when a controversy with equally valid points is not resolved.

4) Any sort of limited resource (be it PP, ammo, etc) should stay limited, and cooldowns should be represented to as great an extent as possible.

5) Certain gameplay mechanics such as invincibility frames, collision detection, and certain boundary oddities should be ignored

6) If something is an ability of the character, it has place in discussion no matter how obscene or illogical

7a) Any abilities that the character has access to that usually can't be used, changed, or stored (class changing, weapon changing, abilities, power-ups) can.

7b) However, these what-if scenarios should adhere to other attributes of the character (Rosalina can only have one of each power, Kirby can't copy enemies because he's using copy essences, etc)

7c) With equipment like Shulk's Ether Gems or Pokémon held items, a standard should be established.

8) The standard hierarchy of discussion should be:
In game-lore >/= Gameplay > Alternate canon > Real world logic >>>>>>>> Assumptions

9) A claim backed by no physical evidence has no place in court in this discussion

10a) In the situation that two conflicting pieces of evidence have equal hierarchal status, whatever is the more common example gets precedence

10b) In the case that two conflicting pieces of evidence have equal hierarchal status and amount of appearances, then whatever makes the character stronger gets precendence

If I missed anything important please correct me.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I've actually just now noticed something. Bullet Punch is a Steel type attack, while Mach Punch is Fighting type. This means that one has steel powers making it effective against different types than the other. Due to their different typing, this likely means that they would have a different source for their power.

Yet, the user can steal use either of them after using Pound, which is an attack using the fist. If you can do something enhanced with elemental power, you can do it without it being enhanced.

Because their attacks are stronger than yours, and thus use more energy, and thus have less uses (which is what PP represents).

See below.

Pound PP =/= Explosion PP. Each PP represents one use. Pound has 35 PP (or is light enough on energy so that it can be used more), while Explosion only has 5 PP (or uses much more energy and cannot be used as much).

I don't think it works like that.

Arceus's stats are higher than Squirtle's stats. This means that each attack deals more damage, and thus each PP is worth more to Arceus than to Squirtle. The attacks deal more damage (and thus take more energy per use), and Arceus possesses more energy than Squirtle. These balance out to equal the same amount of uses per move, even though one Pokemon's move is stronger than that same move on another Pokemon.

And when Arceus' attack power is weakened a lot, the PP of his moves doesn't change. And there's also Cut that Arceus knows. It does a lot of damage because of Arceus' high attack stat, yet it still has a lot of PP.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

That is a good point, to be honest. How will this resolve the fact Samus can harm the Chozo ghosts as long as she can see them in spite of their ability to phase out of existence?

While this empty field lacks walls, the purpose of questioning Link's ability to walk through walls was more directed to see how intangible Link actually is.

As we both know from playing Metroid Prime, Chozo Ghosts were unquestionably intangible but could be harmed by her Power Beam (and Power Beam Super Missiles) and seen with at least her X-ray visor. So I think she should be able to see Link with his magic cape and use any Power Beam Derived weaponry on Link with the Magic Cape.

I wasn't sure if the Pegasus seeds would add any more speed, but if you want, what we could do is use the speed from the Pegasus boots from my calculation. That would grant Link 212.47 mi/h.

I'd think so since it's a separate item. Oh btw, if you have Four Swords or Four Swords adventure, if you wanted to you could test to see if Link can out run a Bow with his pegasus boots in that game with your brother.

I'd be fine with that, honestly. Sure, we're pages ahead, but I think it'd be worth doing. I've already offered my match-up list pages ago on who versus who. I'm also curious as to whether or not we're using composite forms for everyone, or if it's just for Link. My idea of tier lists might be limited, only because there are a few characters whom I am not quite familiar with.

It's ok, none of us really know all of them. If you really want you can just look at other's tier list to get a very brief idea of where others rank them just to get a general idea. You can also just ask.
Also I say, as I've said before, yes to composite forms of characters.

But then again, master sword doesn't seems to actually kill him in OoT even though it should be fatal to get a sword through your head and that is after a lot of beating. And i don't think its a good idea to trust most of the stuff the old man says (thanks to the early Nintendo translation) since, well, dodongos dislike bombs instead of smoke and "EASTMOST PENINSULA IS THE SECRET". So, maybe they can repel evil. But since this has been argued with already, that doesn't matters much i guess.

Anyway, if we're using composite forms of characters, then what to do with all of those Links and Zeldas? Or it doesn't matters that they always are different persons that act as original Link and Zelda's reincarnations in all games outside of direct sequels like Zelda 2? And what to do with Samus' ridicolous defense boost with that last suit upgrade in Metroid Fusion, differences in Metroid Prime and other versions of beams like MP Wave Beam, Other M Wave Beam and Super Metroid Wave Beam?

Actually, the stunning is only on Ganondorf IIRC; it's very powerful, so it OHKOs most enemies in the game.

I'm just assuming it would stun people it wouldn't OHKO.

P-i-s might be a logical conclusion from outside the game, but in-universe, it makes no sense. We should aim for something that makes sense from both perspectives before we go to the last resort of "because game".

Well see, like I said, I disagree that "because of game" should be considered a last resort. And I gave you an in-universe reason- Bowser's arrogant and kind of dumb, plus he probably got overwhelmed in battle.

And why should we ignore the other upgrades because of this?

No, I'm saying it isn't fully upgraded.

I'll dissect the boosts from Hyper Sonic and the Power Platform to best convey my points.
Hyper Sonic

• Some of the stats are increased (speed, jump height, etc.)
• The invincibility is improved (he can't drown anymore)
• However, one aspect of the invincibility isn't improved (the touch damage he deals to enemies isn't increased)
• He gains a new attack (the double jump screen nuke)
• There's an obvious power source (Super Emeralds > Chaos Emeralds)

Power Platform

• Some of the stats are increased (attack and the like)
• The invincibility is improved (the Star Beam cannot remove it anymore)
• However, one aspect of the invincibility isn't improved (the attack power increase remains the same)
• He gains a new attack (the Star Bolt; while it was in the intro, he didn't use it pre-Power Platform)
• There's an obvious power source (it's called the Power Platform)

See the similarities?

• Don't know what you mean by some, what does Hyper Sonic not do better than Super Sonic that can actually be improved?
• ok...
• Where did you get this from? It was hard to find evidence, but from looking on Youtube, Hyper Sonic is almost twice as strong as Sonic (Hyper killed a boss in 4 hits that took 7 from Sonic) while Super Sonic only kills a boss in one less hit than regular Sonic.
• This still makes no sense, just because he didn't use it in battle doesn't mean it's a new attack when it was shown that he already had said attack.
• Yes, but we don't have any proof for the Star Rod that it can do anything new.

The Pokemon is level 47 instead of 46, and is more powerful. The Star Rod has a Power Platform, and is more powerful. I don't see your point here.

That just because it received enhancements doesn't mean it was enough to change what it can do.

Do the Star Spirits rely on the Star Rod to grant wishes?

They can't grant wishes without it if that's what you're asking.

I think it would be best to include the bracket, the tiers, and everything else honestly, rather than just a tier list.

Ok.

Stuff about rules

agreed.

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses. In the case of a tie, the winner is decided on who has the advantage. (Note that this does not mean who caused the tie to happen, but rather who is better off. For instance, if Rosalina creates a black hole and Kirby uses his Stone form to protect himself from being ripped apart, but was still pulled into the center, Rosalina has the upper hand since Kirby is currently inside a black hole and cannot escape.)
• No ally assistance is allowed here. An ally is defined as another character, object, etc. that can function independently from that character. For instance, Mario doesn't get Yoshi (he can do things without Mario on him), but Sonic gets the Wisps (they are only useful when Sonic fuses with them to use their Color Powers).
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items. Characters may only bring what they can carry; for instance, Mario may bring a Mushroom (since he can carry them in his games) and Sonic gets the Wisps (since he can hold the Black Bomb Wisp in Lost World, and we're extending it to all Wisps), but he doesn't get to use the Springs since he cannot carry them around.
• One-ups, respawns, and such are not counted here. This also goes for things like Bowser coming back all the time after falling in lava; if it means defeat in their game, it means defeat here. Fairies from Zelda and such are different because they seamlessly revive Link on the spot.
• Game mechanics are not taken into account here. A gameplay mechanic is an aspect of the game that is purely a result of that game's style and way of doing things, and does not indicate the character's abilities. For instance, things such as invincibility frames are game mechanics, while Mario jumping is not.
• There is no teleportation out of the arena (combatants can teleport around the arena, however), and if a character is otherwise absent from the arena for at least ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character owns are compiled for the matchups. However, if a character just happens to have used an item belonging to someone else (such as when Pit uses Palutena's Powers in Kid Icarus, which would violate both this rule and the no allies rule), it is not allowed. This also means that all characters have a "composite" form. So Link gets items from Majora's Mask, Skyward Sword, and everything else, and the same goes for all characters. Characters can also switch weapons and such on the fly; for instance, Pit can use the Palutena Bow and then the Upperdash Arm and everything else, even though he only uses one per battle in Uprising.

• 10 miles up might be too low. Characters who can fly should be able take advantage of their flying skills
• I don't agree with "can act on their own". I think if a character could summon someone that could attack on their own but doesn't last the whole fight it should be allowed (think summons in Final Fantasy or Assist Trophies in Smash), but I'm not sure if that actually applies to anyone on this roster.
• Sounds fine.
• Ditto.
• We'd need to clarify what game mechanics are in certain situations but otherwise yes.
• What about force teleporting people out of the arena? That should be allowed.
• Yes. But Pit should get his powers and I'd argue 5 minutes of flight. If Kirby get access to Copy abilities without essences and the hypernova, Pit deserves powers.

I also suggest that we pause any discussions about character matchups while we're organizing this whole thing, to keep the focus on the new thread.

The only character discussion we need to continue is voting whether Star Rod can grant infinite wishes or only the ones granted. Not as a final resolution, but just a temporary placeholder since that's a pretty big difference in Bowser's tier ranking.

I tried laying out what a composite Link would look like in the previous pages. Here's the weapon strength. Here are a few items.

Good list but a few things to mention:

• Link can switch between items, so they're is no need to just use one for him.
• Bombchus are an option, and I believe they home in on enemies.
• The Value of Medallions is they are AOE attacks, quake being a magically induced earthquake.
• Magic Boomerang can be controlled to go where ever Link wants it to, another version where he can throw 3 at once, and another that OHKOs every enemy (including the final boss). I propose we stack the effects of all his boomerangs since they have the same name. If we have composite Link, why not composite magic boomerang?
• You didn't include masks, I believe.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seems thoughts have changed haven't they?

Do you have any thoughts on his proposed rule list?

And I kind of understand where @ Kirby Dragons is coming from on the PP thing, since a Pokemon with 0 Flying PP can still fly outside of battle. And a Pokemon could technically run out of Ember PP, an attack that involves a weak fire, but still be able to fire off 10 Fire Blasts, an attack that involves an intense fire, which logically makes no sense.
That being said, I think we should just stick with PP, BP, cooldowns, etc. Outside of Pokemon it usually makes sense that characters can't use attacks infinitely without recovering.

Anyway, I propose the following be removed as game mechanics:

• Teleport in Pokemon. In the anime, teleport lets a user go wherever they want, not just to Pokecenters. It wouldn't benefit the player to teleport where ever in battles for games, so I believe it's a game mechanic.
• Ditto for Farores Wind. In-game it can only warp in dungeons, whether in the same one or two different ones. So I propose this battle field either counts as a dungeon or we ignore the limit as a game mechanic.

Also, some rule proposals:

1. I think a turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs.
2. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down but I'm not sure.
3. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out.
4. Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 is silly just because it has 2 hands. As I said before, many items aren't actually "held", and many 'mons lack hands.
5. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise.
6. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
7. Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning.

 

[Nerdicon]

1. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise.

And then they just shot up about a million tiers...
Hyrule Warriors is an alternate canon so anything that contradicts it from the main series will take advantage over it

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Yes you can use those as long as they're credible, just know if you plan on using something like Game Theory that it's just an opinion that can be wrong.

Why would I use Game Theory when even random NPC townspeople have more credibility?

And unless someone specifically asks not to post something do to spoilers, spoiler tags aren't necessary.

I just don’t want to be that guy who spoilers Xenoblade’s plot twists when it gets released next month.

Also not sure what you mean by King of the Hill or round robin tournament. I now what the latter is, but not what you mean in this case.

By Round-Robin I mean each Smasher fights 1 vs 1 bouts against each member of the cast where the one with the most victories wins! It beats the current elimination style tournament since it accounts for Smashers having Rock-Paper-Scissors style weaknesses to one another. An example of that happening would be Ness(PSI Flash incapacitates Samus)>Samus(Supreme Firepower)>Shulk(Immune to PSI Flash due to Debuff Resist VI)>Ness. Another example would replace Ness with Ganondorf for a similar result. King of the Kill is a game type common to FPS where players fight to physically occupy a piece of land. Victory is achieved when a player or team achieves a certain amount of uncontested time on the "hill". Using this as a secondary victory condition would favor Smashers who are able to take and hold ground and punish those who would play keep away the whole match. The conditions for uncontested control should be when the defender is alone on the hill and not under ranged pressure from their opponent(2nd condition is to account for the Star Fox characters Arwings)

And due to the sheer complexity and length of ranking 50 characters (well 49 since no one but Kirby Dragons is ranking Miis), we could do a fun side ranking of stages bosses and assist trophies later on, but let's not add them to the main tier list. But there's nothing stopping you from making a tier list that includes them,.

I have no business making a tier list as my knowledge is limited to Xenoblade, Fire Emblems 7-10, Pikmin 1+2, the genesis sonic games and assorted games in the Mario, Donkey Kong and Zelda Franchises. I’m not going to fight Kirby fans when the last game I beat was Kirby’s Adventure on the NES.

Good post on Shulk, just want to say we generally stay away from items (in shulk's case, gems or armor) that increase stats since all these characters have varying stats from different systems (i.e. who knows how Robin's evasion of 115 interacts with Thunder's 70% accuracy?), unless said stat increase has a significant increase on the characters style. For example, normally skill maxes out around 40. However the limit breaker skill makes it so it maxes out around 50. Since many of her skills activation rate = skill stat, this means with skill of 50 she is practically guaranteed to have certain skills activate every other attack.

Agility gems and skills are what ensure all your attacks connect against enemies that are 5 levels above the party or lower and turn Dunban and Seven into dodge-tanking Fire Emblem style Swordmasters(You did stack Dunban with agility games and skill links right?). Shulk could use them to get a competitive hit and evade rate against the likes of Marth, Roy, Ike, Robin and Lucina.

And go ahead with Shulk's loadout; I recommend a lvl 6 Double attack, Haste and Topple Plus for his 3 weapons slots so he can use auto attacks quicker to refill his Talent Gauge and keep foes down for longer.

I will use Glory Gauntlets for Haste VI(45%) as weapon slots are too valuable. I’m not using Topple Plus because Shulk can’t topple lock by himself. Double Attack is overkill with Haste and skill links provide 15% Double attacks anyway. Are we going to be getting into arguments over the best Loadout?

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0

Okay, since it seems that you're the Xenoblade buff around here, make your optimal equipment and such list for Shulk and we'll see how it stacks up against the rest of the cast.

Thanks for the compliment!

Dryn said:

A scientific reason why having one thing inside another capable of withstanding 2,000 centigrade and not adding up to a total of 4,000 centigrade?

I'm going off the idea that the magic armor has a limit, since nothing is limitless.

The Magic armor is Magic, It’s not supposed to make sense. If it bothers you so much why not just increase the rupee drain rate for more extreme dangers.

I agree that the Magic Armor has limits; I'm asking why the effects of it and the ring wouldn't stack.

Is the Ring in danger of melting? I would still expect it to provide reduced protection above it’s rated limit.

Here is a comprehensive mass of text regarding some of Xenoblade's Game Mechanics as well as Shulk's arts, Monado Arts, Skills, recommended Armors, Skill Links, Ether Gems and some musings on their potential uses in 1 vs 1 scenarios:

Spoiler: Spoilered for size

Game Mechanics:

In gameplay Shulk receives visions whenever a targeted party member’s HP is brought down to 10% or less by an enemy’s charged attack Art. Talent arts can be seen 15 seconds ahead of time while non-Talent arts will have only an 8 second timer(12 with Fight the Future). Inflicting Topple on the assailant will extend the timer. Inflicting Daze or Sleep will force it to switch attacks and reset the timer.
Characters under the effect of Topple or Daze are unable to act or defend against attacks, and the effects stack(Ex. 3 seconds of Topple+2 seconds of Daze=5 seconds of helplessness).

Normal Arts: Arts require a Cooldown period after use. Offensive arts also have a hit rate bonus of 25 over auto attacks. Stats are for Max level Arts.

Slit Edge=has a range of 4 meters, damage multiplier of 204%, Side hit inflicts Physical defense down 50%(increases physical damage received by 50%) for 9.5 Seconds. cool down: 8.2 seconds.
Back Slash=has a range of 4 meters, damage multiplier of 380%, Back hit: Damage*2(*3 with Element of Surprise). cool down: 14.6 seconds.
Shaker Edge=has a range of 4 meters damage multiplier of 246%, Topple hit: inflicts Daze for 2 Seconds. cool down: 14.8 seconds.
Air Slash=has a range of 4 meters, damage multiplier of 303%, inflicts break for 9.5 seconds, side hit inflicts slow(Auto attack speed and movement speed drop dramatically) for 9.5 seconds. cool down: 8.3 seconds.
Stream Edge=has a range of 8 meters, hits in a arc, damage multiplier of 303%, inflicts break for 12 seconds and refills talent gauge 15% per enemy hit. cool down: 21.9 seconds.
Shadow Eye=boosts physical art damage by 50% for 5 seconds. cool down: 36.9 seconds.
Light Heal=restores 1463-1763HP. cool down: 18.3 seconds.
Battle Soul=halves shulk’s current HP to refill talent gauge by 52%. cool down: 43.8 seconds.

Monado Arts: Monado Arts can be used when the Talent Gauge is full. The Talent Gauge fills 20% with each successful auto attack. Offensive Monado arts also receive the 25 point boost in accuracy. Ether based art accuracy is only affected by level disparity between user and target(-2 to +2 Levels=100% hit rate).

Monado Enchant=allows the entire party to damage Mechon for 140 seconds, and grants auto attacks 500 bonus damage per hit. Only affects Mechon and no other type of robot, so this will only be useful if stage bosses enter the discussion. Drains Talent Gauge by 50%.
Monado Buster=hits multiple targets in a straight line 10 meters out with a damage multiplier of 700%, and inflicts double the normal damage to Mechon. Drains Talent Gauge by 100%.
Monado Shield=blocks(damage is reduced to 1 per hit and blocks status ailments) all Talent arts =< shield’s level and is good for 1 enemy Talent art or 15 Seconds. The attacker also loses balance after being blocked in cutscenes. Enemy talent arts can not be evaded and can include Multi-hit single-target(Arachno queen’s Arachno Crush I)and AOE(Reckless Godwin’s Crazy Dance III)Physical attacks, long-range linear AOE Ether attacks(Jade Face’s Linear Laser IV) and even Elemental self-destruct Ether attacks(Generic Nebulas‘ Eruptions). Drains Talent Gauge by 50%.
Monado Speed=Boosts a party member’s physical evasion by 190. Maximum evade rate of 90% against physical arts and 95% for auto attacks. Drains Talent Gauge by 75%.
Monado Purge=is a ranged(20 meters) ether art that removes the target’s auras and spikes and seals them for a duration of 14.5 Seconds. It also freeze the target’s movement in cutscenes. Damage multiplier of 353%. Drains Talent Gauge by 75%.
Monado Eater=is an ether attack that removes buffs from all targets in a frontal Arc extending out 15 meters and inflicts bleed for a duration of 20 seconds. Bleed damage occurs every 2 seconds equal to 20% of the Initial Blow. Damage Multiplier of 303%(909% if one includes the bleed damage). Drains Talent Gauge by 75%.
Monado Armor=reduces all non-Talent art damage by 75% to the entire party for 15 Seconds. Drains Talent Gauge by 100%.
Monado Cyclone=is an ether attack that has an AOE radius of 20 meters around Shulk with a damage multiplier of 408%. Break hit: inflicts Topple for 3 seconds. Drains Talent Gauge by 100%.

Source: GameFAQs Xenoblade Chronicles Arts guide

Shulk’s Useful Skills: Equip Intuition skill branch for agility up 15.
Medium Equipment=Allows medium armor to be equipped.
Healing Wisdom=Healing arts restore 15% more HP.
Resilient Warrior=Physical and Ether defense up by 5%.
Equipment Master=reduces weight of armor by 5.
Element of Surprise=damage of arts with bonus effects from behind up 100%(boosts Back Slash).
Fight the Future=grants 4 extra seconds before visions becomes reality.
Immunization=grants immunity to stat-reducing debuffs.
Ultimate Defense=boosts physical and ether defense by 10% for entire party.
Glorious Future=fully refills talent gauge after a vision.

Useful Skill Links: Restricted only by Skill Link slots, as one can easily have 999 Affinity coins by the end of the 6th Playthrough.

Reyn:
Square*2: Shear Determination=increases Physical defense by 15% when HP<50.
Empty slot.
Circle: Wall of Muscle=Increases Max HP by 10%.
Star*2: Rampage=increases double attack rate by 10%.
Channeled Pain=Refills Talent gauge by 5% when damage is taken.

Sharla:
Circle*2: Ether Expansion=Ether up 25.
Always Ready=Agility up 10.
Star*2: Middleweight Expert=Physical and Ether defense of Medium armor up 10%.
Ether Explosion=Ether up 75.
Square: Ether Unleashed=Ether up 15% when HP<50%.

Dunban:
Star*2: Solid Foundation=Grants Immunity to Blow-Down(Getting thrown back through the air. Examples include Dive Impact III and Titan Stamp).
Twin Swords=increases double attack chance by 5%.
Circle*2: Critical Drain=Restores 2% of Max HP with every Critical Hit(Criticals happen pretty often with the Monado III).
Body of Steel=Reduces Physical damage taken by 15%.
Square: Reckless Abandon=agility up 15% when HP<50%.

Melia:
Star*2: Ultimate Ether=Ether up 50.
Power of the Moon=Strength up 15% during nighttime.
Circle*2: High Speed=Agility up 15.
Amplified Healing=increases healing received from healing arts 15%.
Square: Rejection of Evil=Spike damage down 50%(arguably can reduce damage from invincibility stars and candies that damage by contact).

Riki:
Star*2: Heavy Equipment=Can wear heavy armor.
Empty slot.
Hexagon: Watch Out=Agility up 20% when HP<50%.
Circle*2:
Daytime only:
Like Sun!=Strength up 10% during Daytime.
Love Sun!=Cooldown reduced 10% during Daytime.
Nighttime only:
Pretty Stars!=Strength up 15% during Nighttime.
Amazing Stars!=Cooldown reduced 15% during Nighttime.

Seven:
Circle*2: Physical Resiliance=Reduces physical damage 10%.
Strength of Will=Reduces Ether damage 10%.
Star*2: Critical Combo=Double Attacks 100% Critical(Combos well with Critical Drain).
Explosion of Energy=Using Talent Art increases tension 1 stage(Ensures High tension state with Monado Art spam).
Square: Desperate Defense=Block rate up 15% when HP<50%.

Source: GameFAQs Skills guide

Recommended Skill Branch Bonus: Intuition(+15 Agility)

Recommended Equipment:

Monado III: ATK 999-999 Def 25 Edef 25 Crit 75% Block 15% 3 empty slots

Armor:
Head: Lancelot helm (empty slot): 114Def 125Edef 2Wt 1slot
Torso: Lancelot armor (empty slot): 175Def 194Edef 3Wt 1slot
Arms: Glory Gauntlets: 165Def 155Edef 1Wt (Haste(Increases auto attack frequency)45%)
Legs: Lancelot leggings (empty slot): 144Def 126Edef 3Wt 1slot
Feet: Lancelot boots (empty slot): 110Def 125Edef 2Wt 1slot
Total: 708Def 725Edef 11(6 with Equipment Master)Wt

Useful Ether Gems: gems are all perfect rank 6. Ether gems stack additively with skills(EX. Rejection of Evil(+50% spike defense)+Spike Defense VI(+75% spike defense)=100% spike defense).

Weapon Gems: can only be placed in the 3 weapon slots:
Agility Down VI: auto-attack reduces target’s agility by 25%, activates 30% of the time for 20 seconds(reducing the enemy’s physical hit and evade rates).
Slow VI: auto-attack inflicts Slow 25% of the time for 20 seconds(reduces the enemy’s offense and impairs their ability to escape).
Bind VI: auto-attack inflicts Bind(cannot move or turn around) 25% of the time for 20 seconds(stops enemy from escaping and allows Shulk to use his positional Arts to the fullest).
Weapon Power VI: adds 50% to activation rates of status debuff gems and Damage Heal(Ex. Bind goes from 25% activation rate to 75%).

Armor Gems: can only be placed in the 4 armor slots.
Spike VI: enemy suffers 250 spike damage for every blow landed on shulk(Discourages one hit wonders like Mario and Sonic from attacking recklessly).
Daze Resist VI: 100% resistance to Daze(Prevents moments of weakness).
Topple Resist VI: 100% resistance to Topple(Same as Daze Resist).
Debuff Resist VI: 100% resistance to all status ailments and DOTs(Poison, Blaze, Freeze, Bleed) except Daze, Topple, Blow-Down(Trivializes Ness‘s PSI Flash and Link’s Fire and Ice arrows).
Spike Defense VI: reduces spike damage by 75% for 1 gem and 100% for 2 gems(Reduces damage from contact based attacks like Mario‘s Invincibility star).
Damage Heal VI: 30% chance to recover 200Hp(3.9% of MAX HP) when hit by enemy attacks(Useful against foes with low physical power or who inflict great damage over multiple hits).
Recovery Up VI: 50% boost to all healing received(Improves survivability).
Quick Step VI: increases movement speed by 25%(Combined with Shulk’s high running speed, this will let him better pursue enemies and close distance fast with projectile spammers).

Equipment Gems: can be placed in weapon or armor slots
Agility Up VI: raises agility by 50(You can never have enough hit and evade).

Shulk’s stats Raw [Adjusted]

HP 5,135 [5,648]
Strength 405 [405] (Str. Up 10%(Day) or 30%(Night))
Wp. Attack 999-999 [999-999]
Physical attack 1404-1404 [1404-1404]
Ether 417 [567] (Ether up 15% when HP<50%)
Ether Attack 1416-1416 [1566-1566]
Agility 117 [201] (Agility up 35% when HP<50%)
P. Def 25 [924] (P. Def up 15% when HP<50%)
E. Def 25 [945]
Critical hit rate 80% [80%] ((Very)High Tension 95%(110%))
Double attack rate 0% [15%]
Block Rate 15% [15%] (Block rate up 15% if HP<50%)
Light Heal 1463-1763 [2587-3117] (if HP<50% than 2975-3585 restored)
P. Damage down 0% [25%]
E. Damage down 0% [10%]

Stat Descriptions:

HP=represents how much punishment Shulk can take before being KO.
Strength=Affects Auto-attack and physical Art damage.
Weapon Attack=Affects Physical and Ether Art damage.
Physical Attack=Strength+ Weapon Attack.
Ether=Affects Ether Art damage and is the sole stat that Light Heal runs off.
Ether Attack=Ether+ Weapon Attack.
Agility=Affects Physical Accuracy and Evasion(Arguably the most important stat in Xenoblade).
P. Def=Represents Shulk’s ability to mitigate physical damage.
E. Def=Represents Shulk’s ability to mitigate Ether damage.
Critical Hit Rate=percentage of attacks that are Critical hits. Critical hits do 25% extra damage.
Double Attack Rate=percentage of auto-attacks that score 2 hits instead of 1.
Block Rate=Chance to block with weapon. A successful Block cuts physical damage received in half, ends combo attacks prematurely and unbalances the attacker for about half a second.
Light Heal=Health recovered from Light Heal, heals about 50% of Max Hp with adjusted stats.
Physical and Ether damage down=reduces end damage by that amount. Stacks multiplicatively rather than additively with Monado Armor.
Raw: Stats from leveling and Monado III.
Adjusted: Raw stats plus stats from skills, Skill branch bonus, skill links, armor, and ether gems.

Feel free to ask questions if anything confuses you.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Anyway, I propose the following be removed as game mechanics:

• Teleport in Pokemon. In the anime, teleport lets a user go wherever they want, not just to Pokecenters. It wouldn't benefit the player to teleport where ever in battles for games, so I believe it's a game mechanic.
• Ditto for Farores Wind. In-game it can only warp in dungeons, whether in the same one or two different ones. So I propose this battle field either counts as a dungeon or we ignore the limit as a game mechanic.

Wait, are you saying we should remove Teleport and Farore's Wind completely, or remove the teleportation limits? I say the latter.

And about health bars, I don't think we should use the actual bars, but use them to sort of estimate the damage someone can take.

 

[Crystanium]

I agree that the Magic Armor has limits; I'm asking why the effects of it and the ring wouldn't stack.

I already explained why. See my gyroscopic device and protective suit analogy.

While quakes may occur on other planets, factors such as the planet's size, density, structure, etc. would likely make the calculations for earthquakes on, well, Earth somewhat inaccurate, no?

It'd be no different than lightning strikes on different planets. I'm only going by the effects of the super missile as demonstrated in Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion, which takes place on a space ship. I'm not sure how else to calculate it.

We can use it to determine how much of a beating Link could take, though. In this case, Link could withstand an eight-bomb explosion about eighty times in a row, and his defensive upgrades would just increase that durability.

I don't see it that way, since heart containers are just a representation of Link's life energy. In the Japanese, this is known as "force", which is defined as "the breath of life itself". (Hyrule Historia, p. 75)

Yes, one which we haven't been given an official heat measurement for and thus we resort to real-life science to find out.

More importantly, it's only referring to river Zoras, so any other flame can harm Link.

...if it was real life, which it's not.

Of course it's not real life, but if that's how it's going to be, then I'm not going to apply physics to anything, including to those on the roster. After all, these universes aren't our own, meaning words we understand in our world is meaningless in theirs.

It's not irrelevant. We are discussing games, so games (and the events that take place in them) are not irrelevant. The difference with Sonic is that he's been said in lore multiple times to be travelling at the speed of sound/hypersonic speeds/speed of light/etc., whereas the only thing we've been told about Beepboxer's blasts is that they are sound, or vibrations in the air. This doesn't necessarily mean that they travel at 340.29 m/s.

I never said the games aren't relevant. What's irrelevant is the visual evidence, especially when it's occurring during game play. You do realize that sound travels 343 m/s, right? So knowing that Beepboxer's sound waves are sound, that by definition means they travel 343 m/s. I've already offered a few other examples from other games where things are traveling at sonic or supersonic speed, but you're ignoring these. It's not like Sonic travels the speed of sound in game play and cut-scenes. Hell, light speed dash is a snail's pace to the real deal.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

And then they just shot up about a million tiers...
Hyrule Warriors is an alternate canon so anything that contradicts it from the main series will take advantage over it

Do you mean they should get the items and equipment but that they should behave (for the most part) as they would in the main series?

I just don’t want to be that guy who spoilers Xenoblade’s plot twists when it gets released next month.

Well that doesn't have any relevance to this discussion since it's not a direct sequel, but definitely avoid spoilers from any upcoming or recently released games.

By Round-Robin I mean each Smasher fights 1 vs 1 bouts against each member of the cast where the one with the most victories wins! It beats the current elimination style tournament since it accounts for Smashers having Rock-Paper-Scissors style weaknesses to one another. An example of that happening would be Ness(PSI Flash incapacitates Samus)>Samus(Supreme Firepower)>Shulk(Immune to PSI Flash due to Debuff Resist VI)>Ness. Another example would replace Ness with Ganondorf for a similar result. King of the Kill is a game type common to FPS where players fight to physically occupy a piece of land. Victory is achieved when a player or team achieves a certain amount of uncontested time on the "hill". Using this as a secondary victory condition would favor Smashers who are able to take and hold ground and punish those who would play keep away the whole match. The conditions for uncontested control should be when the defender is alone on the hill and not under ranged pressure from their opponent(2nd condition is to account for the Star Fox characters Arwings)

Well I (and others) do think the tournament should be adjusted so some people don't win or lose just based on being seeded wrong, but the tournament doesn't really determine tier placement, I think it's just a way of determining what match up to discuss.

I have no business making a tier list as my knowledge is limited to Xenoblade, Fire Emblems 7-10, Pikmin 1+2, the genesis sonic games and assorted games in the Mario, Donkey Kong and Zelda Franchises. I’m not going to fight Kirby fans when the last game I beat was Kirby’s Adventure on the NES.

That's why we have done posts listing people's skills and powers. None of us are all-knowing about all the franchises. That being said you (and anyone else, like @Dryn ) free to abstain from making a tier list and simply give comments on the final accumulated one.

Agility gems and skills are what ensure all your attacks connect against enemies that are 5 levels above the party or lower and turn Dunban and Seven into dodge-tanking Fire Emblem style Swordmasters(You did stack Dunban with agility games and skill links right?). Shulk could use them to get a competitive hit and evade rate against the likes of Marth, Roy, Ike, Robin and Lucina.

But not all characters have levels, so how would that translate for non-RPG characters? And the leveling system for FE and Xenoblade are different, so there's no way to determine how it translates.

I will use Glory Gauntlets for Haste VI(45%) as weapon slots are too valuable. I’m not using Topple Plus because Shulk can’t topple lock by himself. Double Attack is overkill with Haste and skill links provide 15% Double attacks anyway. Are we going to be getting into arguments over the best Loadout?

No, you're loadout was fine, but I'd replace that last agility gem with a resistance gem like Blow-down or another gem, pending the specific match-up (arts seal resist would be GREAT against Mewtwo.)

Wait, are you saying we should remove Teleport and Farore's Wind completely, or remove the teleportation limits? I say the latter.

And about health bars, I don't think we should use the actual bars, but use them to sort of estimate the damage someone can take.

Remove the teleport limitations. Forgot to include the Kid Icarus characters teleports too.

And about health bars, I was referring to people more like Kirby and Mario than say Shulk or Charizard.

 

[Crystanium]

As we both know from playing Metroid Prime, Chozo Ghosts were unquestionably intangible but could be harmed by her Power Beam (and Power Beam Super Missiles) and seen with at least her X-ray visor. So I think she should be able to see Link with his magic cape and use any Power Beam Derived weaponry on Link with the Magic Cape.

Chozo ghosts were only harmed by the power beam because it wasn't a natural energy like Samus' other beam weapons. (I presume super missiles in MP could harm the Chozo ghosts because the added power beam effect.) If we're using composite Samus, then her dark visor should also come in handy for hitting targets who can enter other dimensions.

I'd think so since it's a separate item. Oh btw, if you have Four Swords or Four Swords adventure, if you wanted to you could test to see if Link can out run a Bow with his pegasus boots in that game with your brother.

It's been a while since I played Four Swords Adventure, I think it was. I could contact my brother and ask if he could test that out as well. Of course, I thought you could only have one item at a time, so I don't know if that's possible.

Good list but a few things to mention:

• Link can switch between items, so they're is no need to just use one for him.
• Bombchus are an option, and I believe they home in on enemies.
• The Value of Medallions is they are AOE attacks, quake being a magically induced earthquake.
• Magic Boomerang can be controlled to go where ever Link wants it to, another version where he can throw 3 at once, and another that OHKOs every enemy (including the final boss). I propose we stack the effects of all his boomerangs since they have the same name. If we have composite Link, why not composite magic boomerang?
• You didn't include masks, I believe.

• I suppose.
• Bombchus are an option, but have their limits against those who are too fast or can fly.
• I've never heard of a boomerang automatically killing every enemy. Because the boomerangs are separate items, I'd see them used separately, not stacked. The reason why Samus' upgrades are stacked are simply because that's how her armor functions. Not even Mega Man has the luxury of stacking his abilities. He can switch them out, though.
• The masks don't seem to be too relevant in terms of combat.

The Magic armor is Magic, It’s not supposed to make sense. If it bothers you so much why not just increase the rupee drain rate for more extreme dangers.

Because the Zeldaverse has laws to abide by, even the magic armor has limits.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Chozo ghosts were only harmed by the power beam because it wasn't a natural energy like Samus' other beam weapons. (I presume super missiles in MP could harm the Chozo ghosts because the added power beam effect.) If we're using composite Samus, then her dark visor should also come in handy for hitting targets who can enter other dimensions.

Ok.

It's been a while since I played Four Swords Adventure, I think it was. I could contact my brother and ask if he could test that out as well. Of course, I thought you could only have one item at a time, so I don't know if that's possible.

I think if you're playing multiplayer mode different Links can get different items.

• I suppose.
• Bombchus are an option, but have their limits against those who are too fast or can fly.
• I've never heard of a boomerang automatically killing every enemy. Because the boomerangs are separate items, I'd see them used separately, not stacked. The reason why Samus' upgrades are stacked are simply because that's how her armor functions. Not even Mega Man has the luxury of stacking his abilities. He can switch them out, though.
• The masks don't seem to be too relevant in terms of combat.

• Ok
• True.
• It's the Link's awakening version. It's not a big deal since he can swap them out but I'm putting it up for a vote anyway.
• He's got a handful of masks that would be helpful.

Here are masks that could be helpful:

1. All Night Mask keeps him from falling asleep
2. Fierce Diety's attacks are stronger than the strongest baled in MM and doesn't need to be at full health to use sword beams.
3. Blast Mask lets Link explode like a bomb and won't cause any damage if his shield is raised. Has a 15 second cooldown.
4. Goron Mask lets him go faster than Epona can run by rolling with spikes protruding. His punches hit like a megaton hammer. When he curls up he can do a ground pound that releases shockwaves. While curled up his D is pretty good, although I'm not sure how much.

I'm not saying any of those are great, but they're options.

 

[Nerdicon]

Do you mean they should get the items and equipment but that they should behave (for the most part) as they would in the main series?

I mean they can take any abilities from Hyrule Warriors as long as it doesn't directly contradict the main canon.
Sheik jumps a few tiers because of this, she gets a temporary lightning shield, a HUGE fire burst, a water barrier, a shadow cyclone, and a light zone that charges her musou gauge faster. Her musou attack is really strong too, creating a large energy wave that goes back and forth a few times before knocking the opponent away. Not to mention powerful knife attacks, a pretty decent guard, a dodge roll that makes her invincible, and a few items (hookshot, boomerang, bombs, and bow). These weapons can be upgraded via power-ups dropped in battle. The bomb in particular can have some devastating effects.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

a dodge roll that makes her invincible

This one shouldn't count just like invincibility during Samus' Sense Move, invincibility during dodge rolls in SSB, etc. Its just a game mechanic and every character in the game has it...right?

 

[Nerdicon]

This one shouldn't count just like invincibility during Samus' Sense Move, invincibility during dodge rolls in SSB, etc. Its just a game mechanic and every character in the game has it...right?

No, the dodge is an inherent ability of the character and as little logical sense it makes for a simple movement like this to grant invincibility, it does. Therefore Sheik and Zelda are both invincible when dodging, Link and Ganondorf should get the ability as well.

 

[Crystanium]

Why are we even considering Hyrule Warriors?

 

[Crystanium]

Energy, reserve, and e-recovery tanks
111 energy tanks with an additional 4 reserve tanks and 3 e-recovery tanks.

Concentration and crystal flash
Samus can also use crystal flash, which restores all of her energy tanks and adds a trace amount of energy for a reserve tank. This requires 10 missiles, 10 super missiles, and 10 power bombs with an additional power bomb to start it up. When using concentration, Samus will be able to restore at least three energy tanks.

Suit damage reduction and immunity
Samus' damage reduction goes up to 385%. She's also immune to convection and magma, as well as acid, Phazon, Dark Aether's atmosphere, the corrosive effects of Ingstorm, fuel gel, and acid rain.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

No, the dodge is an inherent ability of the character and as little logical sense it makes for a simple movement like this to grant invincibility, it does. Therefore Sheik and Zelda are both invincible when dodging, Link and Ganondorf should get the ability as well.

Then why not count invincibility frames when character gets hit? Its same thing.
Invincibility is given them in the game because its a dodge, so, character should be able to avoid attacks with it. Not because they can become invincible. Just a game mechanic. And since even Tingle can do it...

Why are we even considering Hyrule Warriors?

Because Zelda and Sheik do next to nothing in their games.

Energy, reserve, and e-recovery tanks
111 energy tanks with an additional 4 reserve tanks and 3 e-recovery tanks.

Concentration and crystal flash
Samus can also use crystal flash, which restores all of her energy tanks and adds a trace amount of energy for a reserve tank. This requires 10 missiles, 10 super missiles, and 10 power bombs with an additional power bomb to start it up. When using concentration, Samus will be able to restore at least three energy tanks.

Suit damage reduction and immunity
Samus' damage reduction goes up to 385%. She's also immune to convection and magma, as well as acid, Phazon, Dark Aether's atmosphere, the corrosive effects of Ingstorm, fuel gel, and acid rain.

Wasn't it higher than 385%? It goes from taking all 9 energy tanks (or more, i don't remember) of damage when hit by Omega Metroid to just 1.

 

[Crystanium]

Then why not count invincibility frames when character gets hit? Its same thing.
Invincibility is given them in the game because its a dodge, so, character should be able to avoid attacks with it. Not because they can become invincible. Just a game mechanic. And since even Tingle can do it...

I agree. Invincibility frames should be disregarded. It doesn't matter, since sense move is also an inherent ability of Samus'. We cannot have invincibility frames, but we can retain the ability to dodge.

Because Zelda and Sheik do next to nothing in their games.

I don't see why we should have to use Hyrule Warriors when it's not canon, regardless. Some characters are unfortunate in having feats of their own. At least we know Zelda can use a bow.

Wasn't it higher than 385%? It goes from taking all 9 energy tanks (or more, i don't remember) of damage when hit by Omega Metroid to just 1.

I didn't bother considering the "unnamed suit" (which is actually an acquisition of the ice beam and a suit) because of Yoshio Sakamoto's comment concerning it. He states that at the end, absorbing SA-X simply "reconstituted" Samus' armor. To me, this seems to imply that Samus restored her original defensive strength before the Federation had to surgically remove large portions of her armor.

By the way, I've been thinking of perhaps comparing Samus' missiles to rocket-propelled grenades. The one in this video is interesting because it reminds me of how the rocket looks in MOM.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I don't see why we should have to use Hyrule Warriors when it's not canon, regardless. Some characters are unfortunate in having feats of their own. At least we know Zelda can use a bow.

Good point. Well, then they should be thrown into lowest tiers. Well, maybe Zelda shouldn't go too low since she has Light Arrows, but thats not enough.

I didn't bother considering the "unnamed suit" (which is actually an acquisition of the ice beam and a suit) because of Yoshio Sakamoto's comment concerning it. He states that at the end, absorbing SA-X simply "reconstituted" Samus' armor. To me, this seems to imply that Samus restored her original defensive strength before the Federation had to surgically remove large portions of her armor.

Doesn't makes any sense when Ridley-X and Nightmare-X's attacks don't deal too much damage and at least Ridley-X is supposed to be enhanced and distorted imitation of Ridley's clone. So, if she gets her original defensive strength only at the end, then those 2 bosses' attacks should have been nearly enough to kill her in 1 hit.

By the way, I've been thinking of perhaps comparing Samus' missiles to rocket-propelled grenades. The one in this video is interesting because it reminds me of how the rocket looks in MOM.

Im not sure its a right comparison since those missiles aren't normal (they seems to be generated out of nowhere before she fires them since there isn't any place in the suit to store 225 missiles that are as big as her arm cannon's barrel and they also are not affected by gravity and liquids unless Nightmare is screwing with the gravity), but thats just me.

 

[Crystanium]

Doesn't makes any sense when Ridley-X and Nightmare-X's attacks don't deal too much damage and at least Ridley-X is supposed to be enhanced and distorted imitation of Ridley's clone. So, if she gets her original defensive strength only at the end, then those 2 bosses' attacks should have been nearly enough to kill her in 1 hit.

Well, regardless of the amount of energy tanks you have at the end, it'll always result in 1 energy unit. After absorbing SA-X, Samus loses only 1 energy tank. 1 / 20 = 0.05, or 5% of damage is received. What if you only acquire 10 energy tanks up to this point? Now only 10% damage is received. There is no damage reduction accurately connected to this, so I'm going to ignore it.

Im not sure its a right comparison since those missiles aren't normal (they seems to be generated out of nowhere before she fires them since there isn't any place in the suit to store 225 missiles that are as big as her arm cannon's barrel and they also are not affected by gravity and liquids unless Nightmare is screwing with the gravity), but thats just me.

I'm comparing them to how Samus' missiles and super missiles look from MOM. With the speed booster (if we assume Mach 2 as Samus' top speed, since Samus runs at "supersonic speeds"), Samus would be able to produce 5.06 kg. of TNT alone, or 1.82 kg. of TNT at Mach 1.2. I would expect a higher amount from the missiles and super missiles. The explosion from a super missile alone looks bigger. It's practically larger than Nightmare.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Well, regardless of the amount of energy tanks you have at the end, it'll always result in 1 energy unit. After absorbing SA-X, Samus loses only 1 energy tank. 1 / 20 = 0.05, or 5% of damage is received. What if you only acquire 10 energy tanks up to this point? Now only 10% damage is received. There is no damage reduction accurately connected to this, so I'm going to ignore it.



I'm comparing them to how Samus' missiles and super missiles look from MOM. With the speed booster (if we assume Mach 2 as Samus' top speed, since Samus runs at "supersonic speeds"), Samus would be able to produce 5.06 kg. of TNT alone, or 1.82 kg. of TNT at Mach 1.2. I would expect a higher amount from the missiles and super missiles. The explosion from a super missile alone looks bigger. It's practically larger than Nightmare.

Well, it wouldn't be fair if it would be necessary to have certain amount of energy tanks (like in Super Metroid). I don't think its better to ignore it since it still is an upgrade from her current state.

Oh. Anyway, should super missiles' power be just 5x higher than normal missiles'?

 

[Crystanium]

Well, it wouldn't be fair if it would be necessary to have certain amount of energy tanks (like in Super Metroid). I don't think its better to ignore it since it still is an upgrade from her current state.

Oh. Anyway, should super missiles' power be just 5x higher than normal missiles'?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

In think in SM, it's 5x, but in MF, I believe it's only 3x.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue
For Mario, I think we've decided that two strong attacks would defeat him, and the Super Mushroom gives him more health. But I don't think it's a good idea for other characters, because it might not tell how much damage one can take.

For example, Kirby tanked a planet-sized explosion. Yet, six attacks that are much weaker can defeat him in gameplay. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Shouldn't we just should count Mario as a normal human in terms of how much he can take?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Shouldn't we just should count Mario as a normal human in terms of how much he can take?

That seems fair. The Super Mushroom could just increase his health.

 

[Munomario777]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seems thoughts have changed haven't they?

Anyway what I think about a revised ruleset:
1) The battlefield is a 10x10x10 mile area made of concrete surrounded by a 15x15x15 casing of completely indestructible material (so no running away)

2) If a character is forced into a situation in that they cannot retaliate, the match should be treated as a stalemate until decided on by the people

3) A vote is in order when a controversy with equally valid points is not resolved.

4) Any sort of limited resource (be it PP, ammo, etc) should stay limited, and cooldowns should be represented to as great an extent as possible.

5) Certain gameplay mechanics such as invincibility frames, collision detection, and certain boundary oddities should be ignored

6) If something is an ability of the character, it has place in discussion no matter how obscene or illogical

7a) Any abilities that the character has access to that usually can't be used, changed, or stored (class changing, weapon changing, abilities, power-ups) can.

7b) However, these what-if scenarios should adhere to other attributes of the character (Rosalina can only have one of each power, Kirby can't copy enemies because he's using copy essences, etc)

7c) With equipment like Shulk's Ether Gems or Pokémon held items, a standard should be established.

8) The standard hierarchy of discussion should be:
In game-lore >/= Gameplay > Alternate canon > Real world logic >>>>>>>> Assumptions

9) A claim backed by no physical evidence has no place in court in this discussion

10a) In the situation that two conflicting pieces of evidence have equal hierarchal status, whatever is the more common example gets precedence

10b) In the case that two conflicting pieces of evidence have equal hierarchal status and amount of appearances, then whatever makes the character stronger gets precendence

If I missed anything important please correct me.

That sounds good to me.

Yet, the user can steal use either of them after using Pound, which is an attack using the fist. If you can do something enhanced with elemental power, you can do it without it being enhanced.

The target is physically pounded with a long tail, a foreleg, or the like.

Not specifically the fist.

...And doing it without the elemental power is called Mach Punch.

I don't think it works like that.

Why not?

And when Arceus' attack power is weakened a lot, the PP of his moves doesn't change. And there's also Cut that Arceus knows. It does a lot of damage because of Arceus' high attack stat, yet it still has a lot of PP.

When his attack power is weakened, his energy is also weakened. Cut actually has a rather average 50 in the power stat; it's not an extremely strong move or anything.

I'm just assuming it would stun people it wouldn't OHKO.

Ah. That seems pretty likely.

Well see, like I said, I disagree that "because of game" should be considered a last resort. And I gave you an in-universe reason- Bowser's arrogant and kind of dumb, plus he probably got overwhelmed in battle.

Why not? If there's a reason that makes sense in-universe, then that should be taken over something that doesn't. I disagree with your in-universe reason, but wouldn't that apply in battles against the Smash cast as well?

No, I'm saying it isn't fully upgraded.

A car's durability isn't upgraded with a faster engine, yet the car has another power source, which makes it go faster. Just because every single attribute of something isn't upgraded doesn't mean that it's not being upgraded.

• Don't know what you mean by some, what does Hyper Sonic not do better than Super Sonic that can actually be improved?
• ok...
• Where did you get this from? It was hard to find evidence, but from looking on Youtube, Hyper Sonic is almost twice as strong as Sonic (Hyper killed a boss in 4 hits that took 7 from Sonic) while Super Sonic only kills a boss in one less hit than regular Sonic.
• This still makes no sense, just because he didn't use it in battle doesn't mean it's a new attack when it was shown that he already had said attack.
• Yes, but we don't have any proof for the Star Rod that it can do anything new.

• Well, let's see. Its Ring efficiency is still one per second, he's still vulnerable to crushing and bottomless pits, and a few things here or there.
• M'kay. Note that this is pretty much the situation with Bowser and the Star Beam.
• Nah, it still seems to be eight hits.
• Do you have an explanation for why he didn't, then?
• It can attack with more power, it can block the Star Beam, etc. etc.

That just because it received enhancements doesn't mean it was enough to change what it can do.

Except we see that change happen in the boss battle.

They can't grant wishes without it if that's what you're asking.

Okay, then that seems to be why they're worried about the Star Rod (or wherever this tangent came from).

Ok.

agreed.

Glad we're on the same page.

• 10 miles up might be too low. Characters who can fly should be able take advantage of their flying skills
• I don't agree with "can act on their own". I think if a character could summon someone that could attack on their own but doesn't last the whole fight it should be allowed (think summons in Final Fantasy or Assist Trophies in Smash), but I'm not sure if that actually applies to anyone on this roster.
• Sounds fine.
• Ditto.
• We'd need to clarify what game mechanics are in certain situations but otherwise yes.
• What about force teleporting people out of the arena? That should be allowed.
• Yes. But Pit should get his powers and I'd argue 5 minutes of flight. If Kirby get access to Copy abilities without essences and the hypernova, Pit deserves powers.

• Hmm, true.
• I'm sort of on the fence with this one.
• Cool.
• Glad we're on the same page.
• Of course.
• I don't think it should. The goal is to kill the opponent, not just force them to forfeit.
• The difference is that Copy Abilities and Hypernova aren't ally assistance, whereas Powers are controlled by Palutena.

And I kind of understand where @ Kirby Dragons is coming from on the PP thing, since a Pokemon with 0 Flying PP can still fly outside of battle. And a Pokemon could technically run out of Ember PP, an attack that involves a weak fire, but still be able to fire off 10 Fire Blasts, an attack that involves an intense fire, which logically makes no sense.
That being said, I think we should just stick with PP, BP, cooldowns, etc. Outside of Pokemon it usually makes sense that characters can't use attacks infinitely without recovering.

Yeah. While it might seem strange in some cases, in the interest of sticking to the source material, we should keep it in.

Anyway, I propose the following be removed as game mechanics:

• Teleport in Pokemon. In the anime, teleport lets a user go wherever they want, not just to Pokecenters. It wouldn't benefit the player to teleport where ever in battles for games, so I believe it's a game mechanic.
• Ditto for Farores Wind. In-game it can only warp in dungeons, whether in the same one or two different ones. So I propose this battle field either counts as a dungeon or we ignore the limit as a game mechanic.

• If you mean removing the limits, I agree.
• I agree that it should be usable, but it should still have to set the warp point prior to the teleportation like it works in-game.

Also, some rule proposals:

1. I think a turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs.
2. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down but I'm not sure.
3. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out.
4. Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 is silly just because it has 2 hands. As I said before, many items aren't actually "held", and many 'mons lack hands.
5. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise.
6. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
7. Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning.

1. Sounds good.
2. There it's used with one Emerald, and it lasts ten seconds. With seven Emeralds, it would presumably last seventy seconds.
3. I'm not familiar with Metroid, but I'm assuming that's how it works there.
4. Sounds fine to me.
5. Hyrule Warriors =/= canon.
6. I'm not so sure. We're using composite characters, but I think items themselves should only combine if the source material allows it.
7. Priority of sources first, commonness second, advantages third.

I already explained why. See my gyroscopic device and protective suit analogy.

I didn't see an explanation. I just saw an example and it was left at that.

It'd be no different than lightning strikes on different planets. I'm only going by the effects of the super missile as demonstrated in Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion, which takes place on a space ship. I'm not sure how else to calculate it.

Earthquakes shake the planet, and with a smaller planet, it could take less force to shake it. You could try calculating the missile explosions based on how they react to things they hit, what they can destroy, etc.

I don't see it that way, since heart containers are just a representation of Link's life energy. In the Japanese, this is known as "force", which is defined as "the breath of life itself". (Hyrule Historia, p. 75)

Yes, and that life force allows him to take eight bombs to the face eighty times in a row.

More importantly, it's only referring to river Zoras, so any other flame can harm Link.

Ah, interesting.

Of course it's not real life, but if that's how it's going to be, then I'm not going to apply physics to anything, including to those on the roster. After all, these universes aren't our own, meaning words we understand in our world is meaningless in theirs.

I'm fine with applying physics in some areas, but if they contradict the games (which have their own laws of physics), then the games should take precedence.

I never said the games aren't relevant. What's irrelevant is the visual evidence, especially when it's occurring during game play.

If visual evidence in gameplay is irrelevant, then many points made in this discussion as a whole are made null and void.

You do realize that sound travels 343 m/s, right?

My bad.

So knowing that Beepboxer's sound waves are sound, that by definition means they travel 343 m/s.

Oh, you want to get into definitions now? Alright then.

Sound: vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear.

I've already offered a few other examples from other games where things are traveling at sonic or supersonic speed, but you're ignoring these. It's not like Sonic travels the speed of sound in game play and cut-scenes. Hell, light speed dash is a snail's pace to the real deal.

"Strong point: running speed (can exceed mach 1)" - An official bio for Sonic
"The world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" - Sonic Adventure's instruction manual
"The Light Speed Dash lets you race towards Rings at light speed." - Tikal, Sonic Adventure
"'Light Dash' to move at light-speed along trails of Rings." - The game, Sonic Adventure 2
Et cetera, et cetera.

Shouldn't we just should count Mario as a normal human in terms of how much he can take?

Without a Super Mushroom you mean? That seems reasonable.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Without a Super Mushroom you mean? That seems reasonable.

Yes. With Super Mushroom, he should be twice as durable since, well, he gets 2x bigger.