Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Yes. With Super Mushroom, he should be twice as durable since, well, he gets 2x bigger.

Of course, we should take into account his feats of survival without taking any damage, such as, say, falling from great heights without taking damage.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Everyone else thinks we should keep PP and other limited uses, so I'm guessing that's the rule.

 

[Nerdicon]

Hyrule Warriors =/= canon.
.

Actually, Hyrule Warriors is an alternate canon so as long as there are few direct contradictions (which there aren't) they should get their abilities from Hyrule Warriors

 

[Nerdicon]

Double Post


I blame the interwebz

 

[Crystanium]

@ ShadowLBlue
For Mario, I think we've decided that two strong attacks would defeat him, and the Super Mushroom gives him more health. But I don't think it's a good idea for other characters, because it might not tell how much damage one can take.

For example, Kirby tanked a planet-sized explosion. Yet, six attacks that are much weaker can defeat him in gameplay. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

Two strong attacks?

Kirby survived a planet-sized explosion?

Shouldn't we just should count Mario as a normal human in terms of how much he can take?

Not if we have feats for Mario showing that he can withstand certain things. We know he cannot survive extreme temperatures alone, nor spikes, nor too much pressure, nor explosions. These would show how fragile he is, but he like many characters seem to take blunt force pretty well. If we're using composite forms anyway, Mario has badges. So these problems should change.

I didn't see an explanation. I just saw an example and it was left at that.

It was an argument from analogy.

• Reinforced carbon-carbon protects one from extreme temperatures. Magic armor and the blue holy ring protects Link from extreme temperatures.
• The magic armor is to the gyroscopic device as the blue holy ring is to the protective suit.
• If the gyroscopic device falls in lava, only it's taking the heat. The protective suit isn't. So it is with the magic armor and the blue holy ring. The protective suit/blue holy ring will only start taking the heat, should the wearer fall into lava.
• Since both the gyroscopic device and protective suit can withstand 2,000 centigrade, it doesn't follow that the one in the device and suit has a total of 4,000 centigrade immunity. Likewise with the magic armor and blue holy ring.

Earthquakes shake the planet, and with a smaller planet, it could take less force to shake it. You could try calculating the missile explosions based on how they react to things they hit, what they can destroy, etc.

Earthquakes shake a localized area, though a much more powerful quake can slightly move the entire planet. Anyway, considering the size of the fireball from one super missile used on Nightmare and consuming him, it would seem that a super missile can destroy a house and affect its vicinity.

Yes, and that life force allows him to take eight bombs to the face eighty times in a row.

During game play. Don't you think that's a game mechanic? You find it reasonable for Mario to be treated like a human without the use of a super mushroom.

Ah, interesting.

Don't worry, though. I'm fine with using 1,226°C as the temperature the blue holy ring can protect Link.

I'm fine with applying physics in some areas, but if they contradict the games (which have their own laws of physics), then the games should take precedence.

Then again, we shouldn't use any of our physics because a lot of what one sees in these video games goes contrary to what we know.

If visual evidence in gameplay is irrelevant, then many points made in this discussion as a whole are made null and void.

If they're contradicting something else in the source, they should be dismissed. In that case,

Oh, you want to get into definitions now? Alright then.

That is what sound is, but you're ignoring the speed at which they travel, which by definition is 343 m/s in air, much higher in liquids, and much, much higher in solids.

"Strong point: running speed (can exceed mach 1)" - An official bio for Sonic
"The world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" - Sonic Adventure's instruction manual
"The Light Speed Dash lets you race towards Rings at light speed." - Tikal, Sonic Adventure
"'Light Dash' to move at light-speed along trails of Rings." - The game, Sonic Adventure 2
Et cetera, et cetera.

And we accept these in spite of the fact that in both game play and cut-scenes, Sonic is never traveling that fast. Not only does the alpha blogg fire sonic blasts to stun its enemy, but shriekers also release a sonic stun blast to stun their target. Samus can dodge this as well. There are also echo gates in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and when Samus fires the annihilator beam at the echo key beams, she can see the sound traveling from the key beams to the gate. The travel speed is much slower by comparison to how one might see sound in real life.

Even better is the battle against Serris, who moves at supersonic speed and Samus can dodge it. So, I'm sticking with the fact that Samus can dodge things faster than sound. I think Mario can dodge sound as well, and Mega Man even has a reaction time to avoid supersonic attacks.

 

[Munomario777]

Actually, Hyrule Warriors is an alternate canon so as long as there are few direct contradictions (which there aren't) they should get their abilities from Hyrule Warriors

"With Hyrule Warriors, there is a link between the two, but it exists as a separate dimension, so it doesn't exist as part of the main canon."

It was an argument from analogy.

• Reinforced carbon-carbon protects one from extreme temperatures. Magic armor and the blue holy ring protects Link from extreme temperatures.
• The magic armor is to the gyroscopic device as the blue holy ring is to the protective suit.
• If the gyroscopic device falls in lava, only it's taking the heat. The protective suit isn't. So it is with the magic armor and the blue holy ring. The protective suit/blue holy ring will only start taking the heat, should the wearer fall into lava.
• Since both the gyroscopic device and protective suit can withstand 2,000 centigrade, it doesn't follow that the one in the device and suit has a total of 4,000 centigrade immunity. Likewise with the magic armor and blue holy ring.

I didn't ask for a repeat of your argument. I asked for the reason why it would happen. I'm going to assume that you mean that the gyro device would melt, or something along those lines. The Magic Armor doesn't get deactivated unless Link either runs out of Rupees or turns it off himself, so this wouldn't be the case.

Earthquakes shake a localized area, though a much more powerful quake can slightly move the entire planet. Anyway, considering the size of the fireball from one super missile used on Nightmare and consuming him, it would seem that a super missile can destroy a house and affect its vicinity.

Yes, that's what I meant. Do you have a visual resource for that Super Missile blast, and is it comparable to the one I provided from Wind Waker?

During game play. Don't you think that's a game mechanic? You find it reasonable for Mario to be treated like a human without the use of a super mushroom.

Of course, we should take into account his feats of survival without taking any damage, such as, say, falling from great heights without taking damage.

Mario : falling from a great height : : Link : taking bombs to the face.

Don't worry, though. I'm fine with using 1,226°C as the temperature the blue holy ring can protect Link.

Okay, sounds good.

Then again, we shouldn't use any of our physics because a lot of what one sees in these video games goes contrary to what we know.

Our physics can be used if there isn't anything to go on, but I agree that they're not always a very reliable source in this discussion.

If they're contradicting something else in the source, they should be dismissed. In that case,

That is what sound is, but you're ignoring the speed at which they travel, which by definition is 343 m/s in air, much higher in liquids, and much, much higher in solids.

Actually, different air consistencies, temperatures, and such can dramatically alter the speed at which sound travels. It seems likely that (assuming we're using real-life science in the first place) the air from Metroid has the properties to slow the sound waves down to that speed.

And we accept these in spite of the fact that in both game play and cut-scenes, Sonic is never traveling that fast.

Yes, we accept it because gameplay cannot convey that speed and, unlike the sound waves, the speed is clearly stated.

Not only does the alpha blogg fire sonic blasts to stun its enemy, but shriekers also release a sonic stun blast to stun their target. Samus can dodge this as well. There are also echo gates in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and when Samus fires the annihilator beam at the echo key beams, she can see the sound traveling from the key beams to the gate. The travel speed is much slower by comparison to how one might see sound in real life.

Yes, the travel speed is much slower. That is my point. Unless it's said to be travelling at the speed of sound, then we cannot assume that it is just because it consists of ripples in the air.

Even better is the battle against Serris, who moves at supersonic speed and Samus can dodge it. So, I'm sticking with the fact that Samus can dodge things faster than sound. I think Mario can dodge sound as well, and Mega Man even has a reaction time to avoid supersonic attacks.

I actually haven't found a source for Serris moving at supersonic speeds. Care to share where you got that from?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Hyrule Warriors stuff

Well I haven't actually played it so I guess we'll rely on you as the info source for this if it gets approved. Actually, after scrolling further down it sounds like the majority are against them getting moves from that game. It's fine. Was just a thought.

BTW is it worth the price? I've been contemplating getting it but I hear it's short but has good replay value.

@ ShadowLBlue
For Mario, I think we've decided that two strong attacks would defeat him, and the Super Mushroom gives him more health. But I don't think it's a good idea for other characters, because it might not tell how much damage one can take.

For example, Kirby tanked a planet-sized explosion. Yet, six attacks that are much weaker can defeat him in gameplay. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

Not really, Mario clearly withstands damage a normal human couldn't and displays super human feats.

I'm ignoring most of your stuff about the Star Rod so we can focus on making the rules and tier list for the new thread.

• Hmm, true.
• I'm sort of on the fence with this one.
• Cool.
• Glad we're on the same page.
• Of course.
• I don't think it should. The goal is to kill the opponent, not just force them to forfeit.
• The difference is that Copy Abilities and Hypernova aren't ally assistance, whereas Powers are controlled by Palutena.

• cool
• I can't think of anyone this applies too, so it might be a moot point but I want to cover it anyway.
• cool
• cool
• cool
• Hmmm, I guess but I still think we should vote on it.
• Where does it actually say Powers are controlled by Palutena? They're found in chests distributed throughout the land, Palutena and Viridi just hold onto them.

• If you mean removing the limits, I agree.
• I agree that it should be usable, but it should still have to set the warp point prior to the teleportation like it works in-game.

• ok
• That's fine, but just so you know he can reset warp points so it's not like he'll just be teleporting to the same spot over and over again.

1. Sounds good.
2. There it's used with one Emerald, and it lasts ten seconds. With seven Emeralds, it would presumably last seventy seconds.
3. I'm not familiar with Metroid, but I'm assuming that's how it works there.
4. Sounds fine to me.
5. Hyrule Warriors =/= canon.
6. I'm not so sure. We're using composite characters, but I think items themselves should only combine if the source material allows it.
7. Priority of sources first, commonness second, advantages third.

1. Well that's 1 yes.
2. Well of course he can stack it.
3. Well in some games missiles are beam combos rather than separate missiles.
4. ok
5. ok
6. That's 2 No's.
7. What does priority mean in this case?

@Dryn , @ Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons , and @ BaganSmashBros , you didn't respond to me rule proposals and suggestions for removal of things I deem game mechanics, so I'm reposting.

EDIT: Updated as of 2:17pm, 3/29.

PROPOSALS

These should be deemed game mechanics.

• Teleport in Pokemon. In the anime, teleport lets a user go wherever they want, not just to Pokecenters. It wouldn't benefit the player to teleport where ever in battles for games, so I believe it's a game mechanic. So far it's 4-0 (as in 3 Yes votes to 0 No votes).
• Ditto for Farores Wind. In-game it can only warp in dungeons, whether in the same one or two different ones. So I propose this battle field either counts as a dungeon or we ignore the limit as a game mechanic. So far it's 4-0 as well

RULE PROPOSALS:

1. I think a turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs. 3-0
2. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well. 3-0.
3. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out. 2-0.
4. Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 is silly just because it has 2 hands. As I said before, many items aren't actually "held", and many 'mons lack hands. 3-0.
5. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise. Denied in a 2-4 vote.
6. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang. So far 2-2 (muno and Dryn being the opposition).
7. Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning. no votes (muno commented but I didn't understand.
8. Kirby Dragon's proposed ignoring PP. Was outvoted 1-4.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm ignoring most of your stuff about the Star Rod so we can focus on making the rules and tier list for the new thread.

M'kay.

• cool
• I can't think of anyone this applies too, so it might be a moot point but I want to cover it anyway.
• cool
• cool
• cool
• Hmmm, I guess but I still think we should vote on it.
• Where does it actually say Powers are controlled by Palutena? They're found in chests distributed throughout the land, Palutena and Viridi just hold onto them.

• K
• K
  
• K
• K
• K
• Okay, I think you know what I'm voting for.
• It's obvious that she grants him the Power of Flight, and the wiki says she does this for the other Powers as well. I haven't played Uprising myself, so I can't speak for that, but I'm sure's said/demonstrated somewhere.

• ok
• That's fine, but just so you know he can reset warp points so it's not like he'll just be teleporting to the same spot over and over again.

• K
• Of course.

1. Well that's 1 yes.
2. Well of course he can stack it.
3. Well in some games missiles are beam combos rather than separate missiles.
4. ok
5. ok
6. That's 2 No's.
7. What does priority mean in this case?

1. K
2. K
3. K
4. K
5. K
6. K
7. Priority as in, which sources take precedence in the case of a contradiction (i.e. lore > gameplay > etc.). What I'm saying is that we should determine which system to use as such:
   - First, we ask where each health system comes from. For instance, if one comes from gameplay and the other comes from another media (anime etc.), we use the first one.
   - If those match, then we see which one appears more often. For instance, if one appears in five games and the second appears in seven games, we use the second one.
   - If those match, then I agree that we can use the one that is more advantageous to the character.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

@Dryn , @ Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons , and @ BaganSmashBros , you didn't respond to me rule proposals and suggestions for removal of things I deem game mechanics, so I'm reposting.

PROPOSALS

These should be deemed game mechanics.

• Teleport in Pokemon. In the anime, teleport lets a user go wherever they want, not just to Pokecenters. It wouldn't benefit the player to teleport where ever in battles for games, so I believe it's a game mechanic. So far it's 3-0 (as in 3 Yes votes to 0 No votes).
• Ditto for Farores Wind. In-game it can only warp in dungeons, whether in the same one or two different ones. So I propose this battle field either counts as a dungeon or we ignore the limit as a game mechanic. So far it's 3-0 as well

RULE PROPOSALS:

1. I think a turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs. 2-0
2. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well. 2-0.
3. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out. No one's commented.
4. Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 is silly just because it has 2 hands. As I said before, many items aren't actually "held", and many 'mons lack hands. No votes yet.
5. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise. Denied in a 2-4 vote.
6. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang. So far 1-2 (muno and Dryn being the opposition).
7. Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning. no votes (muno commented but I didn't understand.
8. Kirby Dragon's proposed ignoring PP. Was outvoted 1-4.

I thought i did. Im fine with it, but i don't understand 7th one.

 

[Crystanium]

I didn't ask for a repeat of your argument. I asked for the reason why it would happen. I'm going to assume that you mean that the gyro device would melt, or something along those lines. The Magic Armor doesn't get deactivated unless Link either runs out of Rupees or turns it off himself, so this wouldn't be the case.

You thought I wasn't presenting an argument, which is why I reiterated my point. I don't know why reinforced carbon-carbon wouldn't stack. (I'm assuming that's what you're asking. I really don't know.)

Yes, that's what I meant. Do you have a visual resource for that Super Missile blast, and is it comparable to the one I provided from Wind Waker?

I can show you the video I used. See the 1:24, 1:32, and 1:40 mark.

I cannot say the bombs in WW are comparable, simply because the camera angle appears rather close. The shock wave produced by the super missile in the 1:32 mark is larger than what I've seen from the bombs in WW, though. I've also seen how the bombs look at a distance similar to the distance between Samus and Nightmare, and they're small. I've already given an estimate for the amount of joules produced by one bomb from WW.

Mario : falling from a great height : : Link : taking bombs to the face.

I'm sorry?

Our physics can be used if there isn't anything to go on, but I agree that they're not always a very reliable source in this discussion.

What I'm saying is being of different universes, we shouldn't be applying our own physics to anything, including what cannot be based on.

Actually, different air consistencies, temperatures, and such can dramatically alter the speed at which sound travels. It seems likely that (assuming we're using real-life science in the first place) the air from Metroid has the properties to slow the sound waves down to that speed.

I'm quite aware of that. The typical speed used for sound in discussions is 343 m/s because it's simpler. Considering that the Solar System is in the Metroidverse, I don't think that's the case. Sanctuary Fortress is high up, but even at an elevation of 20,000 miles, it would be traveling 660 mi/h. Considering these echo gates are also on the lower regions and can be seen, I'm going to consider Samus can see sound traveling and thereby see things moving at sonic and supersonic speed.

Yes, we accept it because gameplay cannot convey that speed and, unlike the sound waves, the speed is clearly stated.

And yet, you're trying to dismiss Samus' ability to react to supersonic things in spite of creatures and devices moving firing sonic and supersonic objects. So sound and light in the Sonicverse move slower than our real-world counterparts. Who cares if game play and cut-scenes can't convey it. Sonic isn't in our universe, only a derivative.

Yes, the travel speed is much slower. That is my point. Unless it's said to be travelling at the speed of sound, then we cannot assume that it is just because it consists of ripples in the air.

Dude, they're sonic devices and attacks.

I actually haven't found a source for Serris moving at supersonic speeds. Care to share where you got that from?

Deduction. Before Metroid: Other M was released and stated that the gravity suit protects Samus from gravitational fields, I pointed out from Metroid Fusion that the gravity suit is absorbed after defeating Nightmare, who is capable of manipulating gravity. This meant that Samus could manipulate gravity with the gravity suit so that it's always normalized.

Considering the Fusion Suit "absorbs powers" from X parasites, according to the official Metroid Fusion Web site, and considering that Serris is absorbed and thereby grants Samus the speed booster, Serris was able to travel at supersonic speed. Its animation color is the same, save the afterimages, which was probably not added because of how long Serris is.

 

[Nerdicon]

"With Hyrule Warriors, there is a link between the two, but it exists as a separate dimension, so it doesn't exist as part of the main canon."

Exactly, it's an alternate canon. In accordance to the hierarchy of discussion, it has a place here.

 

[Munomario777]

You thought I wasn't presenting an argument, which is why I reiterated my point. I don't know why reinforced carbon-carbon wouldn't stack. (I'm assuming that's what you're asking. I really don't know.)

In that case, do you have a source for where exactly you found that information?

I can show you the video I used. See the 1:24, 1:32, and 1:40 mark.

I cannot say the bombs in WW are comparable, simply because the camera angle appears rather close. The shock wave produced by the super missile in the 1:32 mark is larger than what I've seen from the bombs in WW, though. I've also seen how the bombs look at a distance similar to the distance between Samus and Nightmare, and they're small. I've already given an estimate for the amount of joules produced by one bomb from WW.

They seem pretty similar in size to me. Remember, we're using eight WW bombs, not one. The ones in your video are one each, while the picture I provided shows eight being detonated at once.

I'm sorry?

You said that I shared the sentiment of treating Mario as a human without a Mushroom. I showed the exceptions that you didn't include in your post. Mario can be treated as a human except for his feats, such as falling long distances. Likewise, Link can be treated as a human except for his feats, such as taking eight bombs to the face with little harm.

What I'm saying is being of different universes, we shouldn't be applying our own physics to anything, including what cannot be based on.

I'd say there are enough consistencies (gravity makes you fall, hot things hurt, etc.) that we can use them when there's not a contradiction.

I'm quite aware of that. The typical speed used for sound in discussions is 343 m/s because it's simpler. Considering that the Solar System is in the Metroidverse, I don't think that's the case. Sanctuary Fortress is high up, but even at an elevation of 20,000 miles, it would be traveling 660 mi/h. Considering these echo gates are also on the lower regions and can be seen, I'm going to consider Samus can see sound traveling and thereby see things moving at sonic and supersonic speed.

I'm not going to continue with this discussion for now, since it assumes that we're using real life over gameplay (which I don't believe we should do).

And yet, you're trying to dismiss Samus' ability to react to supersonic things in spite of creatures and devices moving firing sonic and supersonic objects. So sound and light in the Sonicverse move slower than our real-world counterparts. Who cares if game play and cut-scenes can't convey it. Sonic isn't in our universe, only a derivative.

Sonic is stated to move at speeds surpassing that of sound/light/etc., and is moving about as quickly as the game/the gamer can handle. (Sonic has gone much faster in other games like Unleashed, but since we're talking about system limitations here, I used a Gamecube title to make it a fair comparison.) The attacks and such from Metroid are stated to be ripples in the air, and move at a relatively leisurely speed.

Dude, they're sonic devices and attacks.

Brah, they move slowly in gameplay.

Deduction. Before Metroid: Other M was released and stated that the gravity suit protects Samus from gravitational fields, I pointed out from Metroid Fusion that the gravity suit is absorbed after defeating Nightmare, who is capable of manipulating gravity. This meant that Samus could manipulate gravity with the gravity suit so that it's always normalized.

Considering the Fusion Suit "absorbs powers" from X parasites, according to the official Metroid Fusion Web site, and considering that Serris is absorbed and thereby grants Samus the speed booster, Serris was able to travel at supersonic speed. Its animation color is the same, save the afterimages, which was probably not added because of how long Serris is.

While Serris's power and the Speed Booster may be similar, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're the same speed. As you said, it lacks the after images that Samus has when using the Speed Booster, suggesting a lower speed.

Anyway, I'm fine with Samus reacting to things at around the speed of sound (the Speed Booster allows her to run at said speed, after all), but I don't agree that the enemies in question travel at said speeds. Since our disagreement here doesn't really affect the topic at hand, though, we should agree to disagree and move on with things. I do think we should establish a standard for using real-life physics and such though, as that would greatly affect the discussion. I say we put it up to vote. I vote that we use it unless there's a contradiction with games, media, etc., in which case we use the games, media, etc.

Exactly, it's an alternate canon. In accordance to the hierarchy of discussion, it has a place here.

Alternate canon as in a canon separate from that of the main Zelda series. There's Zelda canon with games like Ocarina, Majora, LttP, etc., and then there's the canon that Hyrule Warriors is in. It uses the same elements, but it doesn't have bearing on the main Zelda timeline (and thus this discussion).

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I thought i did. Im fine with it, but i don't understand 7th one.

Some characters like Mario and Kirby have varying health systems. For side scrollers and Super Mario 3D world, Mario has small Mario, Super Mario and a power-up form, while in the 3d Platformers for consoles he has between 6 to 8 hit points.

• K
• K
  
• K
• K
• K
• Okay, I think you know what I'm voting for.
• It's obvious that she grants him the Power of Flight, and the wiki says she does this for the other Powers as well. I haven't played Uprising myself, so I can't speak for that, but I'm sure's said/demonstrated somewhere.

This is just for the last 2 bullet points

1. K.
2. Well on wiki does, not the other. I've played it, and I don't recall her saying it specifically, but regardless I feel it should count. But I'll try to go back and look at it.

• K
• Of course.

Good.

1. Priority as in, which sources take precedence in the case of a contradiction (i.e. lore > gameplay > etc.). What I'm saying is that we should determine which system to use as such:
   - First, we ask where each health system comes from. For instance, if one comes from gameplay and the other comes from another media (anime etc.), we use the first one.
   - If those match, then we see which one appears more often. For instance, if one appears in five games and the second appears in seven games, we use the second one.
   - If those match, then I agree that we can use the one that is more advantageous to the character.

That sounds agreeable to me. Do @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon or @ BaganSmashBros have any objections?

 

[Nerdicon]

Alternate canon as in a canon separate from that of the main Zelda series. There's Zelda canon with games like Ocarina, Majora, LttP, etc., and then there's the canon that Hyrule Warriors is in. It uses the same elements, but it doesn't have bearing on the main Zelda timeline (and thus this discussion).

I disagree, any alternate canon should be counted but as a lower source. Since Zelda and Sheik really don't have any feats, there are no contradictions and therefore their powers from Hyrule Warriors should be counted

 

[Munomario777]

@ ShadowLBlue @ Nerdicon

I say the Powers and Hyrule Warriors situations call for a vote, since we're at a bit of a stalemate. I vote no for Pit getting Powers and no for using Hyrule Warriors.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue
I have an objection. Health systems are game mechanics (which we removed for the most part), and don't actually tell how much damage one can withstand in some cases. They're something that all the other websites ignore as well.

I'm ignoring most of your stuff about the Star Rod so we can focus on making the rules and tier list for the new thread.

Are you talking to me or Muno?

Also, I'm confused. Are we doing a round robin tournament where everyone faces everyone? Or a tier list where we vote to move characters up or down, like the thread for SSB4'S tier list?

@ Munomario777
I say no to Powers for Pit, because Palutena isn't in the arena to give them to him.

Normally, I'd say no to HW. But we're using Composite Link, and that means things that aren't canon are allowed.

 

[Crystanium]

In that case, do you have a source for where exactly you found that information?

If you're asking about the temperature, check here on page 3. If you're asking how I concluded that two different things of the same material don't stack, that's just a logical explanation I came to.

They seem pretty similar in size to me. Remember, we're using eight WW bombs, not one. The ones in your video are one each, while the picture I provided shows eight being detonated at once.

I thought you said five, not eight. I saw that at a close-up angle, so I don't know if I'm seeing exactly what I should, especially when watching the video to Jabun. From the calculation I did, Link's bombs should be using 75 grams of TNT per bomb. Samus can already produce 1.82 kilograms of TNT as an equivalent with her own speed booster (if we use 411.6 m/s, rather than 686 m/s). Super missiles are more powerful than that and even rockets from RPGs produce more than that.

The 9M133 Kornet has a TNT equivalent of 7 kg. for a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warhead. Its thermobaric counterpart has a TNT equivalent of 10 kg. From this video, I captured this image. Compare.

Assuming Samus' super missile is not a thermobaric weapon, we could work with 7 kg.


You said that I shared the sentiment of treating Mario as a human without a Mushroom. I showed the exceptions that you didn't include in your post. Mario can be treated as a human except for his feats, such as falling long distances. Likewise, Link can be treated as a human except for his feats, such as taking eight bombs to the face with little harm.[/quote]

But losing health in video games is mostly indicative of injury or death.

I'd say there are enough consistencies (gravity makes you fall, hot things hurt, etc.) that we can use them when there's not a contradiction.

Except they're not consistent. Did you know the gravity Mario experiences is 8 times greater than that of Earth's? Yet we're assuming it's 1 g. The Marioverse doesn't care about convection, so it must not be there, either. We already know those planetoids would violently explode. Link sinks in magma in TP, so he must be denser than magma, yet his people come from a world that would require his bones to be hollow. While we have the illusion that everything is consistent with reality, the reality is that it's not. Even the ice arrow in WW can turn lava into ice. It doesn't change it to rock, but ice! Oh, and water can apparently make magma cool down to the point it's solidified. Yet, we assume for simplicity that everything abides by our laws.

I'm not going to continue with this discussion for now, since it assumes that we're using real life over gameplay (which I don't believe we should do).

Which again, sound and light in video games don't travel at the rate they should, therefore, their definition of these cannot be treated the same.

Sonic is stated to move at speeds surpassing that of sound/light/etc., and is moving about as quickly as the game/the gamer can handle. (Sonic has gone much faster in other games like Unleashed, but since we're talking about system limitations here, I used a Gamecube title to make it a fair comparison.) The attacks and such from Metroid are stated to be ripples in the air, and move at a relatively leisurely speed.

But why should I care? It's lore, not reality. It looks nothing like how it should. Sonic should be blowing up or becoming massless. So sound and light and whatever else in the Sonicverse behave differently than ours, so it's not a good idea to apply our physics on those. The attacks in the Metroid games are not stated to be ripples in the air. That is blatantly false. They're stated to be sound.

Brah, they move slowly in gameplay.

While textual evidence states they're sonic attacks/devices.

While Serris's power and the Speed Booster may be similar, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're the same speed. As you said, it lacks the after images that Samus has when using the Speed Booster, suggesting a lower speed.

That's your assumption that this is indicative of lower speed.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@ ShadowLBlue @ Nerdicon

I say the Powers and Hyrule Warriors situations call for a vote, since we're at a bit of a stalemate. I vote no for Pit getting Powers and no for using Hyrule Warriors.

I know I was the one who proposed it, but I changed my mind after seeing that link you posted and listening to the arguments.

@ ShadowLBlue
I have an objection. Health systems are game mechanics (which we removed for the most part), and don't actually tell how much damage one can withstand in some cases. They're something that all the other websites ignore as well.

Not sure what these other websites you keep referring to are. Also, what do you propose instead?

Are you talking to me or Muno?

Muno. I want you to respond to the rules proposal I listed and tagged you in.

Also, I'm confused. Are we doing a round robin tournament where everyone faces everyone? Or a tier list where we vote to move characters up or down, like the thread for SSB4'S tier list?

I'm asking everyone to make a tier list like the Smash 4 tier list that we can then form into an aggregate tier list to use for the new thread. Of course anyone who doesn't want to make a list doesn't have too. You can still comment on the proposed tier list. Did you not see either of the posts I tagged you in? I listed an example.

@ Munomario777
I say no to Powers for Pit, because Palutena isn't in the arena to give them to him.

Normally, I'd say no to HW. But we're using Composite Link, and that means things that aren't canon are allowed.

Well only you and Nerdicon are in favor of it, so you've kind of been out voted on HW 2-4.

@Dryn Since you've ignored my many tags while doing other posts, I'm assuming you have no objections to the rule proposals and counting you as abstaining from the vote.

 

[Crystanium]

@ ShadowLBlue My apologies for not getting to you sooner.

• I agree that teleporting shouldn't be restricted to one specified area. Farore's wind does state that it can only be used in dungeons, though.
• A turn should depend on how quick an attack is. If I tried punching you and missed, I wouldn't have to wait a full minute before I got another chance at punching you.
• Chaos control should last as long as it does during game play. If the duration is longer or shorter in multiplayer, that should be disregarded for the simple fact it's not pertaining to canon.
• Beam combos require missiles, but if you're suggesting we should remove Samus' concentration ability, I might be up for that if she's in her composite form. The amount of missiles and super missiles would be a lot anyway.
• Yeah, I don't agree that there should be composite items like a boomerang stacked with multiple abilities at once, simply because the boomerangs are their own, individual items. Link may possess all of the different boomerangs, but really, as far as I'm aware, only Samus has the whole stacking stuff because that's part of the series.
• I don't accept health systems because they're a game mechanic. I'm content with treating health systems as what they actually represent, such as vitality or the breath of life, but that's it. In other words, a bullet to Mario's, Link's, Samus' (outside the armor) head would kill them instantly.
• I think power points shouldn't be ignored, but be treated as an ability to use a number of times. If Blastoise is holding 50 gallons of water in his system that he can launch from his cannons, once those 50 gallons are used up, Blastoise is "out of power points".

 

[Munomario777]

If you're asking about the temperature, check here on page 3. If you're asking how I concluded that two different things of the same material don't stack, that's just a logical explanation I came to.

I'm referring to the latter. How did you reach this conclusion, out of curiosity?

I thought you said five, not eight. I saw that at a close-up angle, so I don't know if I'm seeing exactly what I should, especially when watching the video to Jabun.

The Jabun video is one bomb. The image I provided is eight bombs.

From the calculation I did, Link's bombs should be using 75 grams of TNT per bomb. Samus can already produce 1.82 kilograms of TNT as an equivalent with her own speed booster (if we use 411.6 m/s, rather than 686 m/s). Super missiles are more powerful than that and even rockets from RPGs produce more than that.

The 9M133 Kornet has a TNT equivalent of 7 kg. for a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warhead. Its thermobaric counterpart has a TNT equivalent of 10 kg. From this video, I captured this image. Compare.

Assuming Samus' super missile is not a thermobaric weapon, we could work with 7 kg.

The calculation you did for Link's bombs was based on them using gunpowder, wasn't it? Would you mind sharing your reasoning for that conclusion, if it's not too much to ask?

Also, compare:

But losing health in video games is mostly indicative of injury or death.

Indeed it is. Link loses little health; thus, he sustains little injury.

Except they're not consistent. Did you know the gravity Mario experiences is 8 times greater than that of Earth's? Yet we're assuming it's 1 g. The Marioverse doesn't care about convection, so it must not be there, either. We already know those planetoids would violently explode. Link sinks in magma in TP, so he must be denser than magma, yet his people come from a world that would require his bones to be hollow. While we have the illusion that everything is consistent with reality, the reality is that it's not. Even the ice arrow in WW can turn lava into ice. It doesn't change it to rock, but ice! Oh, and water can apparently make magma cool down to the point it's solidified. Yet, we assume for simplicity that everything abides by our laws.

Which again, sound and light in video games don't travel at the rate they should, therefore, their definition of these cannot be treated the same.

But why should I care? It's lore, not reality. It looks nothing like how it should. Sonic should be blowing up or becoming massless. So sound and light and whatever else in the Sonicverse behave differently than ours, so it's not a good idea to apply our physics on those. The attacks in the Metroid games are not stated to be ripples in the air. That is blatantly false. They're stated to be sound.

While textual evidence states they're sonic attacks/devices.

As I said in my previous post, I suggest that we put it up to vote. @ ShadowLBlue @ Nerdicon @ Kirby Dragons @Everyone else's, what are your votes?

That's your assumption that this is indicative of lower speed.

Fair enough.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@ ShadowLBlue My apologies for not getting to you sooner.

• I agree that teleporting shouldn't be restricted to one specified area. Farore's wind does state that it can only be used in dungeons, though.
• A turn should depend on how quick an attack is. If I tried punching you and missed, I wouldn't have to wait a full minute before I got another chance at punching you.
• Chaos control should last as long as it does during game play. If the duration is longer or shorter in multiplayer, that should be disregarded for the simple fact it's not pertaining to canon.
• Beam combos require missiles, but if you're suggesting we should remove Samus' concentration ability, I might be up for that if she's in her composite form. The amount of missiles and super missiles would be a lot anyway.
• Yeah, I don't agree that there should be composite items like a boomerang stacked with multiple abilities at once, simply because the boomerangs are their own, individual items. Link may possess all of the different boomerangs, but really, as far as I'm aware, only Samus has the whole stacking stuff because that's part of the series.
• I don't accept health systems because they're a game mechanic. I'm content with treating health systems as what they actually represent, such as vitality or the breath of life, but that's it. In other words, a bullet to Mario's, Link's, Samus' (outside the armor) head would kill them instantly.
• I think power points shouldn't be ignored, but be treated as an ability to use a number of times. If Blastoise is holding 50 gallons of water in his system that he can launch from his cannons, once those 50 gallons are used up, Blastoise is "out of power points".

1. I know, but I think it's a game mechanic since there's no stated reason why it only works in dungeons but I think that was a yes from you. Regardless, everyone else has agreed so we're lifting this limitation.
2. I'm not referring to attacks, I was talking about buffs and debuffs.
3. It can't be used in gameplay, that's why I proposed going off of how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes multi-player mode (10 seconds per emerald).
4. All I was suggesting was that Samus be able to do beam combos if she were to ever run out of missiles by substituting one super missile in place of 5 missiles. I can't imagine her running out unless she is wasteful with Beam combos.
5. Noted.
6. I don't really agree with this but it feels like I'm in the minority. My objection is I dislike applying real world physics when we clearly see them survive attacks normal people normally shouldn't (i.e. Regular Mario can literally get crushed and still live)
7. Noted.
8. Also you missed the one about Pokemon only being able to hold one item but since that's how it is in gameplay, I'm assuming you'll be in favor of it.

Latest game mechanics update

• Majority agreed to allow teleport in pokemon and Kid Icarus to work like other teleports
• Majority agrees to allow Farores wind to work on this battlefield, but it still requires set teleport points. That being said, Link can reset these points whenever/wherever he likes.

GAME MECHANIC
- If an attack says it has certain properties, should it go that speed? (For example, does a lightning bolt attack mean it has the heat and speed of actual lightning, do sound attacks move at speed of sound?)
I'm with @ Munomario777 , I don't always trust those descriptions. At least not for enemy attacks. If Kirby's capable of dodging actual lightning bolts from Kracko, then how does he ever get hit by anything else? His reflexes can't be THAT inconsistent. With certain exceptions, I think attacks go at the speed shown. I buy technology, weapons or abilities on characters containing said properties. Thoughts @ Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros ?

PROPOSALS

RULE PROPOSALS CURRENT VOTING NUMBERS:

1. I think a turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs. 3-0
2. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well. 3-0.
3. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out. 4-0. (I took Dryn's and Muno's responses as Yes votes.) 4 is a majority so this is a pass.
4. Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 is silly just because it has 2 hands. As I said before, many items aren't actually "held", and many 'mons lack hands. 3-0
5. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise. Denied in a 2-4 vote.
6. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang. So far 2-2 (muno and Dryn being the opposition).
7. Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning. 2-2 (Me and muno For; Dryn and Kirby Dragons Against.
8. Kirby Dragon's proposed ignoring PP. Was outvoted 1-4.

 

[Nerdicon]

@ ShadowLBlue @ Nerdicon

I say the Powers and Hyrule Warriors situations call for a vote, since we're at a bit of a stalemate. I vote no for Pit getting Powers and no for using Hyrule Warriors.

I vote no powers for Pit but Hyrule Warriors can stay; it's the same kind of relationship the Pokémon anime and games share: one is non-canon, another is, but they contain a lot of the same content

 

[Nerdicon]

PROPOSALS

RULE PROPOSALS CURRENT VOTING NUMBERS:

1. I think a turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs. 3-0

I'm in favor of this

1. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well. 3-0.

   And this

2. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out. 4-0. (I took Dryn's and Muno's responses as Yes votes.) 4 is a majority so this is a pass.

   And this

3. Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 is silly just because it has 2 hands. As I said before, many items aren't actually "held", and many 'mons lack hands. 3-0

4. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise. Denied in a 2-4 vote.

   I feel it is hypocritical of the community to give Pokémon and Kirby characters their anime abilities, but not the Zelda cast's Hyrule Warriors abilities

5. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang. So far 2-2 (muno and Dryn being the opposition).

   This makes things more interesting so I'll support it.

6. Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning. 2-2 (Me and muno For; Dryn and Kirby Dragons Against.

   Hierarchal Position > Reoccurrence > Benefiting the character

7. Kirby Dragon's proposed ignoring PP. Was outvoted 1-4.

   lol nope

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Munomario777
I'll just agree with Shadow on the speed of attacks debate. They go at the speed that's shown.

I agree with Samus' rule and Sonic's rule.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I'm in favor of this

1. And this
2. And this
3. I feel it is hypocritical of the community to give Pokémon and Kirby characters their anime abilities, but not the Zelda cast's Hyrule Warriors abilities
4. This makes things more interesting so I'll support it.
5. Hierarchal Position > Reoccurrence > Benefiting the character
6. lol nope

1. k That's 4-0 in favor of.
2. k That's 4-0 in favor of
3. k That's 4-0 in favor of
4. That's a fair point... @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , counters to his point that it's hypocritical some people get anime only powers but Hyrule Warriors doesn't count?
5. Well that's 3-2 in favor of composite weapons
6. So this means you agree with muno on priority > commoness > advantage? And that you're voting yes?
7. Also, what's your vote on if speed of attacks going fast as shown?

@ Munomario777
I'll just agree with Shadow on the speed of attacks debate. They go at the speed that's shown.

I agree with Samus' rule and Sonic's rule.

Ok. What about a turn equaling a minute in terms of buff and debuffs and composite items? (reminder of what composite items means: Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games with same name but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.

So then here's the latest update:

PASSED:

• Game Mechanics
  • Teleport in Kid Icarus, Pokemon and Zelda can be used freely, although Kid Icarus and Pokemon have limited uses and Link's involves him setting a warp point the first time he uses it and then the second time he uses it he can either warp there or make where he is using Farore's win a new warp point.
• Rules:
  1. A turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs. -0 (I don't believe Kirby Dragons voted and Dryn misunderstood but regardless a majority have voted For.)
  2. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well. 5-0. ( Dryn misunderstood but regardless a majority have voted For.)
  3. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out. 5-0. (I took Dryn's and Muno's responses as Yes votes.) 5 is a majority so this is a pass.
  4. Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 items just because it has 2 hands is flawed. Many "held" items aren't actually held, and many 'mons lack hands. 4-0 Kirby Dragon being Against and Dryn's opinion pending.

PENDING

1. Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise. Currently 2-3 vote. Nerdicon's opinion changed my mind so I rescinded my no.
2. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang. So far 3-2 (Me, Nerdicon and Bagan For muno and Dryn are against.
3. Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning. 3-2 (Me, Nerdicon and muno For; Dryn and Kirby Dragons Against.
4. Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (not sure if I worded this right). 3-1 Me, muno and Kirby-D for; Dryn against.
5. Pit getting Powers. 1-3 (Me for, Nerdicon, muno and Kirby-D against)

REJECTED
- Removing limits like PP, BP, etc

@ Nerdicon , @Dryn , @ Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros , do you guys have any other rule proposals, or things you want dismissed as game mechanics?

I personally have one, though it doesn't really qualify as a rule: Me and muno were arguing about the Star Rod's power. This is important because whether the star rod can grant any wish or just the ones shown would have a noticeable affect on his tier ranking. I'll try to briefly and objectively lay out both cases:

• I say it can grant any wish because it's stated multiple times in game to be able to do so. The reason he lost is because of a mix of arrongance, stupidity, and plot armor for Mario. It's never shown or indicated to need a power source. That it was powered-up in the final battle doesn't mean it's limited without a power source.
• Muno argues it can only do what it was shown doing in the game without a power source and is limited otherwise. Otherwise he shouldn't have lost to Mario. He believes the game implies it needs a power source to maximize it's powers.

BTW, muno, you're saying that (in the speed of attacks debate) for example, Samus's speed booster goes supersonic even though it doesnt look like it but an enemy shooting soundwaves isn't actually shooting at the speed of sound? I wasn't really paying attention to yall's argument, so I'm not sure exactly what his and your arguments on the matter are.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm referring to the latter. How did you reach this conclusion, out of curiosity?

Intuition. If by using reinforced carbon-carbon as a layer meant one could survive 4,000°C instead of 2,000°C, then it would be simple to keep adding layers until we're able to enter the Sun. I'll put this another way. Ice melts at 32°F. (Same freezing and melting point.) Does that mean if you add another piece of ice that it'll melt at 64°F? That'd be silly.

The Jabun video is one bomb. The image I provided is eight bombs.

I'm aware of that, but one bomb demonstrates for us the radius of the explosion, which is how I came to the conclusion of Link's blast radius and TNT equivalent.

The calculation you did for Link's bombs was based on them using gunpowder, wasn't it? Would you mind sharing your reasoning for that conclusion, if it's not too much to ask?

Sure. The Zeldaverse takes place in a time similar to that of Medieval times. I wouldn't use TNT, considering it wasn't made until 1,863. (It's commonly used in the military, which Link isn't part of, either.) I'm not going to use dynamite either for similar reasons. I doubt oil is being used for Link's bombs. Black powder goes back before dynamite and TNT, so I'm using that instead. 75 grams multiplied by 8 would give us 600 grams of TNT, or 2,510,400 joules.

Also, compare:

Do you have a video of those eight bombs?

Indeed it is. Link loses little health; thus, he sustains little injury.

So you think if Link dives off the bridge leading to Gerudo Valley head first and only loses 1 heart, he wouldn't actually be a paraplegic or dead?

BTW, muno, you're saying that (in the speed of attacks debate) for example, Samus's speed booster goes supersonic even though it doesnt look like it but an enemy shooting soundwaves isn't actually shooting at the speed of sound? I wasn't really paying attention to yall's argument, so I'm not sure exactly what his and your arguments on the matter are.

Both shriekers and the alpha blogg in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes fires a sonic stun blast. The echo gate requires the echo keys to be activated the proper way and we can see the sound waves traveling. Munomario777 is saying these are the actual speed these things are traveling and that they're not traveling at sonic or supersonic speeds, since that's not how it's being portrayed in game play. I pointed out that these are sonic attacks, which means they travel at the speed of sound. (The alpha blogg's sonic stun waves would travel at Mach 4+, due to sound traveling faster in water.)

I used the example of Shade Man's attack firing "supersonic waves" and Beepboxer's sound waves traveling at a snail's pace by comparison to how fast sound would really travel to demonstrate that video games aren't going to have sonic attacks travel at sonic speed during game play. I pointed out that if these visually traveled at the speed of sound or faster, we wouldn't be able to react to them. As a result, there would be no way of winning against these bosses. It's already difficult enough to evade the alpha blogg when it charges at you.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

To avoid quoting a lot of text, i'll just say i agree with those rules and now i understand what you meant by 7. I don't have anything to dismiss as game mechanic that i haven't said anything about before.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue
I think things like the Magic Boomerang should get all their abilities.

To avoid quoting a lot of text, i'll just say i agree with those rules and now i understand what you meant by 7. I don't have anything to dismiss as game mechanic that i haven't said anything about before.

Okay, but what about the health system rule? Earlier, you said we should use what somebody can actually take. Like humans having the durability of humans.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

• Bombchus are an option, and I believe they home in on enemies.

You want to use Bombchus as viable weapons? I remember them having incredibly finicky accuracy when trying to use them in the mini-games.

• Magic Boomerang can be controlled to go where ever Link wants it to, another version where he can throw 3 at once, and another that OHKOs every enemy (including the final boss). I propose we stack the effects of all his boomerangs since they have the same name. If we have composite Link, why not composite magic boomerang?

Are you referring to the boomerang from Link’s Awakening? According to the zeldawiki it only 1HKOs certain enemies, and the game itself takes place in a dream world, right?

1. I think a turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs.
   [*]Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down but I'm not sure.
   [*]Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs out.
   [*]Pokemon only can hold one item. Saying Mewtwo can hold 2 is silly just because it has 2 hands. As I said before, many items aren't actually "held", and many 'mons lack hands.
   [*]Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise.
   [*]Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
   [*]Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning.

No, we need more precision than that.
Agreed, beat sonic with the nerf stick.
Abstaining.
Agreed.
Disagree. Warriors games can get pretty ridiculous and we all would rather have Smash warriors.
Disagree. They are all separate boomerangs.
Agree.

And about health bars, I don't think we should use the actual bars, but use them to sort of estimate the damage someone can take.

Taking away Ness’s Rolling HP meter(Ness won’t die until his HP gradually rolls down to Zero after taking a fatal blow) would severely nerf him.

But not all characters have levels, so how would that translate for non-RPG characters? And the leveling system for FE and Xenoblade are different, so there's no way to determine how it translates.

I was only stating how effective agility stacking is in Xenoblade’s world and I recommend ignoring Level Disparity between the RPG-based combatants. I just remembered the bulk of Evade-tanking in Fire Emblem comes from things like terrain bonuses, overleveledness and supports which won’t be available in this scenario, so Shulk can still get the upper hand with agility stacking against them.

No, you're loadout was fine, but I'd replace that last agility gem with a resistance gem like Blow-down or another gem, pending the specific match-up (arts seal resist would be GREAT against Mewtwo.)

Blow-Down can be negated with a Skill link to Dunban’s Solid Foundation skill and Arts Seal Resist is rendered redundant by Debuff Resist VI(I understand where your coming from about Mewtwo).

No, the dodge is an inherent ability of the character and as little logical sense it makes for a simple movement like this to grant invincibility, it does.

Does the Dodge Roll protect against area of effect attacks like Nova Bombs(Star Fox) or non-physical attacks like Psychic attacks(Mewtwo/Ness).

Then why not count invincibility frames when character gets hit? Its same thing.
Invincibility is given them in the game because its a dodge, so, character should be able to avoid attacks with it. Not because they can become invincible. Just a game mechanic. And since even Tingle can do it...

Characters that have mercy frames should keep them as removing them could cripple characters like sonic and the Mario family.

Of course, we should take into account his feats of survival without taking any damage, such as, say, falling from great heights without taking damage.

Agreed, but only if those feats don’t contradict gameplay otherwise they would be outliers.

That sounds agreeable to me. Do @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon or @ BaganSmashBros have any objections?

That seems fair.

@ ShadowLBlue
I have an objection. Health systems are game mechanics (which we removed for the most part), and don't actually tell how much damage one can withstand in some cases. They're something that all the other websites ignore as well.

Disagree. You can’t just take Game Mechanics out of a game, and why do we have to copy what other websites are doing?

@ ShadowLBlue My apologies for not getting to you sooner.

• I agree that teleporting shouldn't be restricted to one specified area. Farore's wind does state that it can only be used in dungeons, though.
• A turn should depend on how quick an attack is. If I tried punching you and missed, I wouldn't have to wait a full minute before I got another chance at punching you.
• Chaos control should last as long as it does during game play. If the duration is longer or shorter in multiplayer, that should be disregarded for the simple fact it's not pertaining to canon.
• Beam combos require missiles, but if you're suggesting we should remove Samus' concentration ability, I might be up for that if she's in her composite form. The amount of missiles and super missiles would be a lot anyway.
• Yeah, I don't agree that there should be composite items like a boomerang stacked with multiple abilities at once, simply because the boomerangs are their own, individual items. Link may possess all of the different boomerangs, but really, as far as I'm aware, only Samus has the whole stacking stuff because that's part of the series.
• I don't accept health systems because they're a game mechanic. I'm content with treating health systems as what they actually represent, such as vitality or the breath of life, but that's it. In other words, a bullet to Mario's, Link's, Samus' (outside the armor) head would kill them instantly.
• I think power points shouldn't be ignored, but be treated as an ability to use a number of times. If Blastoise is holding 50 gallons of water in his system that he can launch from his cannons, once those 50 gallons are used up, Blastoise is "out of power points".

Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Abstain.
Agreed.
Disagreed. Part of what makes video games characters like Link so awesome is their ability to withstand attacks that would kill normal people outright. There are many games where even individual headshots come up short.
Disagreed.

GAME MECHANIC
- If an attack says it has certain properties, should it go that speed? (For example, does a lightning bolt attack mean it has the heat and speed of actual lightning, do sound attacks move at speed of sound?)
I'm with @ Munomario777 , I don't always trust those descriptions. At least not for enemy attacks. If Kirby's capable of dodging actual lightning bolts from Kracko, then how does he ever get hit by anything else? His reflexes can't be THAT inconsistent. With certain exceptions, I think attacks go at the speed shown. I buy technology, weapons or abilities on characters containing said properties. Thoughts @ Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons , @ BaganSmashBros ?

Agreed as game developers don’t strike me as competent physicists and we all know they have a tendency to exaggerate.

Anyone have any ideas on how effective Ike's skill Nihil would be?

 

[Nerdicon]

Does the Dodge Roll protect against area of effect attacks like Nova Bombs(Star Fox) or non-physical attacks like Psychic attacks(Mewtwo/Ness).

Depends on how long the attack lasts; similarly to Smash there are pretty long periods of vulnerability between each dodge so it's not very effective for continuous protection, it's more effective for on reaction dodging. The psychic abilities of those characters would be able to catch them after they dodged and then psychic them into pulp.

Also welcome to the boards

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Okay, but what about the health system rule? Earlier, you said we should use what somebody can actually take. Like humans having the durability of humans.

Yes, that still should be at least considered. Kinda forgot about it. This obviously should not apply to Samus even without her suit even though she is a human (she has Chozo DNA for example).

Characters that have mercy frames should keep them as removing them could cripple characters like sonic and the Mario family.

No, its fine to remove those since those are simly a game mechanic to avoid everything always being instant death like in that one X-Men game. Mario family could still take a punch to the face and survive, so, its not that bad and they have super mushrooms, which should make them twice as durable.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Disagree. You can’t just take Game Mechanics out of a game, and why do we have to copy what other websites are doing?

For cleaner debates. To avoid being outliers. Also, we're not using the games. We're using the characters from the games. I just don't believe the mechanics should come with them.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can change your vote.

Anyways, I have another proposal. We should ignore the activation requirements of certain things. Like for Kirby's Megaton Punch, he has to perfectly line up two targets.

 

[Munomario777]

Intuition. If by using reinforced carbon-carbon as a layer meant one could survive 4,000°C instead of 2,000°C, then it would be simple to keep adding layers until we're able to enter the Sun. I'll put this another way. Ice melts at 32°F. (Same freezing and melting point.) Does that mean if you add another piece of ice that it'll melt at 64°F? That'd be silly.

Except the Magic Armor doesn't melt. Ice melts at higher temperatures, while nothing really deactivates the Magic Armor.

I'm aware of that, but one bomb demonstrates for us the radius of the explosion, which is how I came to the conclusion of Link's blast radius and TNT equivalent.

Ah, I see.

Sure. The Zeldaverse takes place in a time similar to that of Medieval times. I wouldn't use TNT, considering it wasn't made until 1,863. (It's commonly used in the military, which Link isn't part of, either.) I'm not going to use dynamite either for similar reasons. I doubt oil is being used for Link's bombs. Black powder goes back before dynamite and TNT, so I'm using that instead. 75 grams multiplied by 8 would give us 600 grams of TNT, or 2,510,400 joules.

I wouldn't say it's similar to medieval times. Ignoring the obvious magic-related things that could never happen in medieval times (talking boats, bird people, etc. etc.), there's also the Tingle Tuner (AKA Game Boy Advance), the Picto Box (AKA the instant camera, which didn't come around until the 1900s), spotlights (in Forsaken Fortress), lasers and such (in the Tower of the Gods), and even mentions of sonar and radar (in the introduction to the Sunken Ships minigame). Heck, even the official timeline suggests advanced technology by this point! In Skyward Sword (which is the first game chronologically), there's electric lighting, plumbing, automatic-flush toilets, pedal-powered electric generators, robots, an entire mining facility powered by electricity, the list goes on.

Do you have a video of those eight bombs?

So you think if Link dives off the bridge leading to Gerudo Valley head first and only loses 1 heart, he wouldn't actually be a paraplegic or dead?

Do you have a video detailing this? That would be good to have when determining its fatality.

Anyway, since I'm not sure if I've spoken on the matters:

• I don't think we should include invincibility frames, whether they be mercy frames or dodge rolls. If a character can dodge, fine, but that shouldn't make them suddenly invincible.
• I think for Kirby's Megaton Punch, the lining up the targets and all is meant to represent that it's hard to perform. It depends on the example, but I think in the Megaton Punch's case we can translate it into the difficulty of using the punch.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I've come up with my own proposal ruleset;

• The arena is a square that is 20 miles x 20 miles in diameter.
• Fighters can use abilities or powers from any incarnation of them.
  
• All fighters are scaled to be equal sizes (like if we have Rosalina and Ridley fight, either Rosalina becomes Ridley's size or Ridley become's Rosalina's size).
• All characters have "Super Moves", which are their strongest attack. As some examples, Mewtwo's Super could be Mega Evolution, Sonic's could be Super Sonic, Link's could be the Fierce Deity's Mask, Ganondorf's could be turning into Ganon, etc. Super Moves would have to derive from canonical sources to ensure accuracy. Instant-kills or transformations all count as Super Moves.
• Characters should use canonical information from their series of origin primarily, only resorting to non-canon media like Smash if required in order to ensure proper potrayal.
• That being said, moves that require activation requirements should retain said requirements if they would become ridiculously overpowered otherwise to make sure matches don't get lopsided. Kirby's Megaton Punch or Samus' Hyper Beam are examples of such restricted moves.
  
• Characters that can fly retain the ability in battle; if it requires a powerup or upgrade to preform, that upgrade is automatically applied to them (ex: if Mario is fighting Rayquaza, he automatically gets the Red Star).

Is this any good?

 

[Nerdicon]

Anyway, since I'm not sure if I've spoken on the matters:

• I don't think we should include invincibility frames, whether they be mercy frames or dodge rolls. If a character can dodge, fine, but that shouldn't make them suddenly invincible.
• I think for Kirby's Megaton Punch, the lining up the targets and all is meant to represent that it's hard to perform. It depends on the example, but I think in the Megaton Punch's case we can translate it into the difficulty of using the punch.

I sort of disagree on the first point, I feel that no matter how illogical if someone has the ability to do something, they should have that ability. Granted dodge rolls' invincibility is debatable, but any other invincibility maneuvers should be counted if they are an inherent ability of the character
And I would like to point out that the Megaton Punch is a non-canon minigame.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I sort of disagree on the first point, I feel that no matter how illogical if someone has the ability to do something, they should have that ability. Granted dodge rolls' invincibility is debatable, but any other invincibility maneuvers should be counted if they are an inherent ability of the character
And I would like to point out that the Megaton Punch is a non-canon minigame.

I don't think so. Invincibility frames should count only on things like, say, Screw Attack (even then, its limited since bosses like Ridley can break through it). Invincibility upon getting hit are here to give player chance to get out of the way to avoid getting hit again or just to avoid everything being one-hit kill in games where enemies deal touch damage.

 

[Nerdicon]

I don't think so. Invincibility frames should count only on things like, say, Screw Attack (even then, its limited since bosses like Ridley can break through it). Invincibility upon getting hit are here to give player chance to get out of the way to avoid getting hit again or just to avoid everything being one-hit kill in games where enemies deal touch damage.

I'm not arguing for invincibility frames upon getting hit, I'm talking more about moves in-game that grant you invincibility for the duration of the attack

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I'm not arguing for invincibility frames upon getting hit, I'm talking more about moves in-game that grant you invincibility for the duration of the attack

Then it depends on the attack. If it is possible to anyhow explain (like Screw Attack), then it should be left, but if it just has invincibility frames, then they should go.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

And I would like to point out that the Megaton Punch is a non-canon minigame.

Just because it's a minigame, that doesn't mean it's non-canon. What do you think Kirby does in his free time?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

You want to use Bombchus as viable weapons? I remember them having incredibly finicky accuracy when trying to use them in the mini-games.

Yes, they're viable, just very low on his weapon's list, like I said at end of post. That being said, most people it would be most effective on could be defeated more easily with better weapons.

Are you referring to the boomerang from Link’s Awakening? According to the zeldawiki it only 1HKOs certain enemies, and the game itself takes place in a dream world, right?

Well certain enemies includes the final boss, so it it's not like it's only effective against weaklings. I'm not implying it should OHKO people here, just that it's very strong in said game.

No, we need more precision than that.
Agreed, beat sonic with the nerf stick.
Abstaining.
Agreed.
Disagree. Warriors games can get pretty ridiculous and we all would rather have Smash warriors.
Disagree. They are all separate boomerangs.
Agree.

1. Such as? BTW, you did see I'm only talking about buffs and debuffs, not attacks?
2. ok
3. ok
4. k
5. Noted.
6. noted.
7. k.

Blow-Down can be negated with a Skill link to Dunban’s Solid Foundation skill and Arts Seal Resist is rendered redundant by Debuff Resist VI(I understand where your coming from about Mewtwo).

ok

Disagreed. Part of what makes video games characters like Link so awesome is their ability to withstand attacks that would kill normal people outright. There are many games where even individual headshots come up short.
Disagreed.



Agreed as game developers don’t strike me as competent physicists and we all know they have a tendency to exaggerate.

Well that's two For votes.

Yes, that still should be at least considered. Kinda forgot about it. This obviously should not apply to Samus even without her suit even though she is a human (she has Chozo DNA for example).

So you're in favor of health systems then? I'm not sure if this is a yes or no.

I've come up with my own proposal ruleset;

• The arena is a square that is 20 miles x 20 miles in diameter.
• Fighters can use abilities or powers from any incarnation of them.
  
• All fighters are scaled to be equal sizes (like if we have Rosalina and Ridley fight, either Rosalina becomes Ridley's size or Ridley become's Rosalina's size).
• All characters have "Super Moves", which are their strongest attack. As some examples, Mewtwo's Super could be Mega Evolution, Sonic's could be Super Sonic, Link's could be the Fierce Deity's Mask, Ganondorf's could be turning into Ganon, etc. Super Moves would have to derive from canonical sources to ensure accuracy. Instant-kills or transformations all count as Super Moves.
• Characters should use canonical information from their series of origin primarily, only resorting to non-canon media like Smash if required in order to ensure proper potrayal.
• That being said, moves that require activation requirements should retain said requirements if they would become ridiculously overpowered otherwise to make sure matches don't get lopsided. Kirby's Megaton Punch or Samus' Hyper Beam are examples of such restricted moves.
  
• Characters that can fly retain the ability in battle; if it requires a powerup or upgrade to preform, that upgrade is automatically applied to them (ex: if Mario is fighting Rayquaza, he automatically gets the Red Star).

Is this any good?

1. Why the increase from 10 by 10 in diameter? We don't want it too large. If anything it should be smaller imo.
2. As far as I'm aware, this a rule we're already using
3. Disagree with equal sizes, but I would like it if ridiculously small characters got size upgrades, but I don't see that happening, since that's probably too non-canon.
4. If characters are granted their moves from any incarnation, I'm not sure why this needs to be a specific rule. I do think Pokemon who can Mega Evolve should get to do so even though (to my knowledge) only Mewtwo evolved without an item (movie only)
5. I think we're already using this, although we're allowing non-game info if it doesn't contradict the games.
6. Yes, although Samus doesn't get Hyper Beam.
7. Red Star doesn't count since it's more like a stage item, but there's no rule saying flying characters can't fly.

@ Munomario777 I think whether dodge rolls get invincibility depends on the roll. But what characters have invincible dodge roll on this roster?

Anyone have any ideas on how effective Ike's skill Nihil would be?

Oh, that's interesting, it says it negates any combat-related skills. I'm not sure what qualify as skills for some people though. BTW, munomario, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , and @Dryn , what do you guys think qualify as skills for purpose of Ike's Nihil skill? Skill (at least offensively) in fire emblems are non-basic attacks.
Here's somethings I think am certain qualify. Please weigh in:

1. Pokemon abilities
2. Shulk's talent arts
3. Shulks skills
4. Mario characters' power-ups and Pixls
5. Mario's badges
6. Kirby's Hypernova
7. Palutena's powers
8. Obviously skills of FE characters
9. Sonic's Chaos Emeralds, wisps and moves like Sonic Wind.
10. Pokemon's Mega Stones

I can't think of anythin else, but depending on how much Nihil covers, Ike might get a big boost.

EDIT: "
skills are any non-basic attacks. Basically, advanced attacks. An example of skills would be: ability to strike 5 times at once (because it's beyond characters normal attacking speed in FE), adding damage received from last attack to damage dealt, ability to ignore defense, ability that boosts magic when attacking first, etc. I can list more if you or whoever likes.

It activates automatically, has no limits and blocks all skills for the whole battle.
"

EDIT

RULE UPDATE:

1. (DENIED) Zelda and Shiek should get their moves from Hyrule Warriors just since theyre so barren movewise. Currently 2-5 vote. Reckless-G makes this a majority against.
2. (PASS) Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes C) kill any enemy (including the final boss) in one hit D) have 3 out at once. I say it should get all of it's effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang. So far 4-3 (Me, Nerdicon, Kirby Dragons and Bagan For; muno, Reckless-G and Dryn are against.
3. (PASS) Characters get the health System that gives them the best chance of winning. 4-2 (Me, Nerdicon, Reckless G and muno For; Dryn and Kirby Dragons Against.
4. Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (not sure if I worded this right).4-1 Me, muno, Reckless-G and Kirby-D for; Dryn against.