Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

...yes, at which point he's equally vulnerable to all attacks. I'm not sure what your point is.

Your argument is that Mario has beyond human durability (without a Super Mushroom) since he takes no more damage from, say, a Bullet Bill than a Goomba, correct? This doesn't mean much, since they both kill him in one hit. In fact, this seems to indicate that he doesn't have superhuman durability (getting killed by a walking mushroom in one hit is rather pathetic, actually).

Never said it was part of main canon or that they should get HW Zelda properties...

Okay, I was also addressing Nerdicon and the others involved in the discussion.

Hmmm, well I'm not saying G&W is 2D as opposed to flat, but if he was the only gaming comparison I can think of is Super Paper Mario, where I believe 3-D Mario couldn't be touched or even interact with 2-D enemies. They weren't even aware he existed. Of course I don't believe he could hurt them either. So if G&W was truly 2D, and dimensions acted like in Super Paper Mario, almost every match would end in a tie.

True, but that's a rather big "if". I haven't found a source that says that Mr. Game & Watch is 2D in a way where he would be intangible (and if he was, then he couldn't harm anyone either). Smash says that he's "2D", but it says that that makes him easy to launch; this seems to indicate that "2D" means "flat" in this context and thus rather lightweight.

Exactly, G&W can't be harmed so he deserves to be in his own tier
Anyway I found a Youtube video that details the theoretical properties of a 2D object, pretty interesting video but it helps my case and that's what's important.

Haha, nice April Fools prank.

 

[Crystanium]

With ice, this does not work because the ice will melt. With reinforced carbon-carbon, this does not work because it goes beyond the material's intended temperatures (and presumably melts it/penetrates it/etc. as a result). With Magic Armor, this would not apply as no attack has been shown to just deactivate the Magic Armor.

You're not understanding. I don't care if the magic armor will deactivate or not. You said before that if the magic armor and the blue holy ring are worn, it should allow Link to withstand 1,900+ centigrade. I demonstrated why "stacking" the two things doesn't make sense in that regard. Not to mention, we never see any of Link's gear stack. You are appealing to ignorance, though. (I wouldn't be surprised if the magic armor is programmed in the game so that no damage is ever received. Chances are, that magic armor turns off the hitbox.)

Okay.

Et cetera, et cetera.

What am I supposed to say about this?

Believing in a magic talking boat and riding in a magic talking boat are two different things. I don't deny that they believed in a magic talking boat, but that's not what's happening in the Zeldaverse; people are sailing in them there.

My point was that talking boats aren't unique.

Not in the remake. In Wind Waker HD, the person that upgrades it references that a Forest Firefly was needed in the past, and he just upgrades it after you complete a sidequest. Apparently technology advanced so much since the GameCube version that the firefly could be replaced.

All right, but do you know what technology is being used?

Link receives the Tingle Tuner from Tingle whether or not the player owns a Game Boy Advance. Also, if we're counting something as non-canon because it represents something outside the game world, then the KopPad (from Pikmin 3) is non-canon because it represents the Wii U's Gamepad.

Okay?

While automata did exist in the past, the robots in Skyward Sword are much more advanced, more intelligent, and heck, they even have electricity for arms:

Not to mention the mechanical/electrical mining facility these robots inhabit:

Yes, that's impressive.

True. I was just suggesting using a clearer point of reference than Link's hat (which isn't too visible in the image, unless I'm missing something).

I had a before and after image. I took the distance between Link's shoulders and then checked how many pixels that required and then went to the image with the explosion and added as many pixels necessary.

 

[Munomario777]

You're not understanding. I don't care if the magic armor will deactivate or not. You said before that if the magic armor and the blue holy ring are worn, it should allow Link to withstand 1,900+ centigrade. I demonstrated why "stacking" the two things doesn't make sense in that regard. Not to mention, we never see any of Link's gear stack. You are appealing to ignorance, though. (I wouldn't be surprised if the magic armor is programmed in the game so that no damage is ever received. Chances are, that magic armor turns off the hitbox.)

I didn't see you demonstrate why this wouldn't make sense. I saw you provide an instance where it wouldn't happen without explaining why. I would like an explanation of why the Magic Armor and the Blue Holy Ring would not stack.

What am I supposed to say about this?

I dunno. That's your decision really.

My point was that talking boats aren't unique.

And my point is that riding in talking boats is unique.

All right, but do you know what technology is being used?

Presumably those used in instant cameras in the real world.

Okay?

So the Tingle Tuner is canon, and Wind Waker has access to Game Boy Advance technology.

Yes, that's impressive.

Quite.

I had a before and after image. I took the distance between Link's shoulders and then checked how many pixels that required and then went to the image with the explosion and added as many pixels necessary.

Ah, I see.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I always thought he committed mass murder and slept. Same thing I guess.

I will never look at Infants the same way ever again!

Disagree, Nihil doesn't specify offensive skills, it says "battle skills"

Monado Shield, Speed and Armor are more like buffs(Compare to the Ward/Barrier Staff).

(what do you mean by AOEs? They have attacks that can hit multiple units at once?

Ashera Battle: youtube.com/watch?v=ff3sXXhXjQ8(15:20-16:20)
AOE Details: serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/inventory/judge-weapons/

It's not important for 90% of the roster so we haven't discussed, but I'm assuming day time.

Okay so he gets the inferior daytime buffs(Cooldowns reduced 10% and Strength up 10%). Who else performs differently based on time of day?

The arena is 10 miles by 10 miles.

That sounds like enough room for Team Star Fox vehicles.

• Ganon's passive invincibility
• Any sort of effect chance or critical hit

Ganondorf’s passive invincibility comes from the Triforce piece of Power so Nihil probably won’t work. Ragnell might work because of the 2 blessings of Ashera and Yune that negated the blessings of the Black Knight’s armor in FE9 and the wielders of the Mantle Skill in FE10. The problem here is we would have to compare Ashera and Yune’s powers to Din’s powers and that could get messy, though I would side with the former Duo.
Nihil doesn’t negate critical hits, as that is what the Fortune skill does.

Well, all the skills are automatic in the sense that players can't choose when to activate them.

Not all Skills in Fire Emblem are automatic. Examples of Player activated Command skills include Smite, Gamble, Parity, Sacrifice and Glare, all of which are used from the map screen.

1. Shulk's talent arts

Talent Arts are used Manually.

Other things to worry about:

How exactly do we treat non-Physical attacks like Magic(Zelda, Fire Emblem), Ether(Xenoblade), Special(Pokemon) and PSI(Mother)?
How do critical hits interact between characters like Ike and Shulk(We can’t ignore the Monado III’s 75% boost to critical Hit Rate).
For Fire Emblem characters do we base performance off of Average stats or Max stats? Do any of the characters get the movement boosting boots?
Ike could also use Beastfoe(Ganon, Duckhunt Dog), Birdfoe(Duckhunt Duck) and Dragonfoe(Charizard). Would this change anything?
For Robin and Lucina what classes, skills and stats should we use?
For the Human RPG characters we can probably sync some of their stats like strength, agility and HP. Though this would fall apart against Ness and Lucas due to them being children. Shall I try converting Shulk’s stats to Ike’s System?

In regards to April fools SmashRiki(SmashWiki)>Shaqboards.

 

[Crystanium]

I didn't see you demonstrate why this wouldn't make sense. I saw you provide an instance where it wouldn't happen without explaining why. I would like an explanation of why the Magic Armor and the Blue Holy Ring would not stack.

The simple answer is there's no evidence of items stacking in the Zeldaverse.

And my point is that riding in talking boats is unique.

Of course it is.

Presumably those used in instant cameras in the real world.

Well, the firefly was switched to something else, but we don't know the mechanics.

So the Tingle Tuner is canon, and Wind Waker has access to Game Boy Advance technology.

Or the Tingle tuner has the form of a GBA.

All right, so I've been curious about what kind of explosive material is used in warheads. I suppose based on the definition of a conventional weapon, Samus' missile would be considered conventional. That should not be thought of as "weaker". It just means the weapon is not a weapon of mass destruction, i.e., nuclear weapon. According to Wikipedia, the majority of explosive weapons use chemical explosives, such as nitroglycerin, TNT, HMX, PETN, and nitrocellulose. I'm perfectly fine using TNT because of its common use in the military.

So what this means if that if I use TNT, then I can finally try coming up with how powerful one super missile is. TNT has an explosive velocity of 6,900 m/s. So, a blast radius is the distance from the source that will be affected when an explosion occurs. Here, we can see the distance of the shock wave, or maybe it's the thermal radiation.

The blast radius seems to almost hit the entire area, except where the walkway is. The area is pretty wide. I will assume 10 meters, though, even though I think the area is actually wider. I'm willing to bet Samus' height would give a longer distance, but I don't want to go beyond 10 meters, even though I've checked how long 10 meters is in my own home. For the fireball, I will assume 5 meters. Using G. I. Taylor's formula, one super missile produces 7,290,281,250 joules, or 1.74 tons of TNT. That means one normal missile produces 1,458,056,250 joules, or 348.48 kg. of TNT.

Should Samus use the seeker missile, which launches one super missile and four normal missiles, the TNT equivalent would be 3.14 tons of TNT. One super missile alone produces more energy than the eight bombs in WW.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Ganondorf’s passive invincibility comes from the Triforce piece of Power so Nihil probably won’t work. Ragnell might work because of the 2 blessings of Ashera and Yune that negated the blessings of the Black Knight’s armor in FE9 and the wielders of the Mantle Skill in FE10. The problem here is we would have to compare Ashera and Yune’s powers to Din’s powers and that could get messy, though I would side with the former Duo.

I think any holy weapon will work, not dependent on how powerful the god is.

How exactly do we treat non-Physical attacks like Magic(Zelda, Fire Emblem), Ether(Xenoblade), Special(Pokemon) and PSI(Mother)?

How do we treat them in relation to what?

How do critical hits interact between characters like Ike and Shulk(We can’t ignore the Monado III’s 75% boost to critical Hit Rate).

I personally think we should remove critical hits.

For Fire Emblem characters do we base performance off of Average stats or Max stats? Do any of the characters get the movement boosting boots?

Max stats, but movement is a game mechanic and is removed.

Ike could also use Beastfoe(Ganon, Duckhunt Dog), Birdfoe(Duckhunt Duck) and Dragonfoe(Charizard). Would this change anything?

It would change things, though Charizard isn't a dragon.

For Robin and Lucina what classes, skills and stats should we use?

All of them.

For the Human RPG characters we can probably sync some of their stats like strength, agility and HP. Though this would fall apart against Ness and Lucas due to them being children. Shall I try converting Shulk’s stats to Ike’s System?

It wouldn't really mean anything if you did.

 

[Munomario777]

The simple answer is there's no evidence of items stacking in the Zeldaverse.

And yet we're working with them stacking (or at least you are, given your analyses).

Of course it is.

Okay. I'm not quite sure what your initial point was.

Well, the firefly was switched to something else, but we don't know the mechanics.

Presumably, they are the same as/similar to those used in real life instant cameras. Gameplay and lore don't give specifics, so we can resort to real life.

Or the Tingle tuner has the form of a GBA.

...which is rather advanced technology for a medieval setting.

All right, so I've been curious about what kind of explosive material is used in warheads. I suppose based on the definition of a conventional weapon, Samus' missile would be considered conventional. That should not be thought of as "weaker". It just means the weapon is not a weapon of mass destruction, i.e., nuclear weapon. According to Wikipedia, the majority of explosive weapons use chemical explosives, such as nitroglycerin, TNT, HMX, PETN, and nitrocellulose. I'm perfectly fine using TNT because of its common use in the military.

So what this means if that if I use TNT, then I can finally try coming up with how powerful one super missile is. TNT has an explosive velocity of 6,900 m/s. So, a blast radius is the distance from the source that will be affected when an explosion occurs. Here, we can see the distance of the shock wave, or maybe it's the thermal radiation.

The blast radius seems to almost hit the entire area, except where the walkway is. The area is pretty wide. I will assume 10 meters, though, even though I think the area is actually wider. I'm willing to bet Samus' height would give a longer distance, but I don't want to go beyond 10 meters, even though I've checked how long 10 meters is in my own home. For the fireball, I will assume 5 meters. Using G. I. Taylor's formula, one super missile produces 7,290,281,250 joules, or 1.74 tons of TNT. That means one normal missile produces 1,458,056,250 joules, or 348.48 kg. of TNT.

Should Samus use the seeker missile, which launches one super missile and four normal missiles, the TNT equivalent would be 3.14 tons of TNT. One super missile alone produces more energy than the eight bombs in WW.

Are you sure that there's not a better angle that could be used to calculate the explosion's power? That is a rather large distance between Samus (the best point of reference here) and the blast, after all.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Your argument is that Mario has beyond human durability (without a Super Mushroom) since he takes no more damage from, say, a Bullet Bill than a Goomba, correct? This doesn't mean much, since they both kill him in one hit. In fact, this seems to indicate that he doesn't have superhuman durability (getting killed by a walking mushroom in one hit is rather pathetic, actually).

No, my argument is he's no more vulnerable to a bullet bill than a Goomba in any of his forms.

True, but that's a rather big "if". I haven't found a source that says that Mr. Game & Watch is 2D in a way where he would be intangible (and if he was, then he couldn't harm anyone either). Smash says that he's "2D", but it says that that makes him easy to launch; this seems to indicate that "2D" means "flat" in this context and thus rather lightweight.

I was just saying if he is 2d. I'm assuming he's just flat, which could make him extremely hard to see if he maintains the right angle, but that wouldn't be a big deal for anyone with an AoE attack or who is fast. Might give him the edge over some of his fellow bottom tier peers though.

Monado Shield, Speed and Armor are more like buffs(Compare to the Ward/Barrier Staff).

Shield isn't a buff (it would be closer to dual guarding in FE:A), Speed is debatable (essentially a drastic evasion boost, but if I'm not mistaken makes you dodge almost all physical attacks assuming the enemy your fighting isn't much stronger than you), but you're right about Armor being a buff.

Ashera Battle: youtube.com/watch?v=ff3sXXhXjQ8(15:20-16:20)
AOE Details: serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/inventory/judge-weapons/

Nihil not working probably means her attack isn't an advanced skill, not that it works against AOE.

Okay so he gets the inferior daytime buffs(Cooldowns reduced 10% and Strength up 10%). Who else performs differently based on time of day?

No one that I'm aware of.

Not all Skills in Fire Emblem are automatic. Examples of Player activated Command skills include Smite, Gamble, Parity, Sacrifice and Glare, all of which are used from the map screen.

I was referring to battle skills.

Talent Arts are used Manually.

You can't manually use any skills in an FE battle, so I don't think that limitation should apply.

How exactly do we treat non-Physical attacks like Magic(Zelda, Fire Emblem), Ether(Xenoblade), Special(Pokemon) and PSI(Mother)?

Treat them as far as what?

How do critical hits interact between characters like Ike and Shulk(We can’t ignore the Monado III’s 75% boost to critical Hit Rate).

So his attacks critical 75% of the time?

For Fire Emblem characters do we base performance off of Average stats or Max stats? Do any of the characters get the movement boosting boots?

We're not using stats like that since they don't translate smoothly to a non RPG. But when stats do apply it's always max.

Ike could also use Beastfoe(Ganon, Duckhunt Dog), Birdfoe(Duckhunt Duck) and Dragonfoe(Charizard). Would this change anything?

Yes, they would make his attacks stronger. None of us have done those match-ups, so we can't say if it would change the match-up.

For Robin and Lucina what classes, skills and stats should we use?

Lucina's a Great Lord but can change into any class. Robin also can switch classes at will. So if he wants to change into a Dark Flier to avoid ground attacks he could. I've argued his default class should be Sorcerer with the skills. I'll explain my reasonings for the ones you might question:

• Vantage
• Sol- combined with Aversa's night, can let him recover 100% of hp dealt. You could also argue for Luna here, but I feel constantly being able to heal is more helpful.
• Counter- limits most people from being able to attack with melee options
• Limit Breaker- so he can have max stats. Difference between his skills activating around 40% of the time vs 50% of the time.
• Armsthrift

Assuming Lucina's mom is Robin:

• Aether
• Armsthrift
• Limit Breaker
• Vantage
• Counter

Feel free to make counter suggestions.
For the Human RPG characters we can probably sync some of their stats like strength, agility and HP. Though this would fall apart against Ness and Lucas due to them being children. Shall I try converting Shulk’s stats to Ike’s System?

Not really, we're not going to bother trying to match different stat systems.

@ Kirby Dragons ,
I thought we were holding FE characters to only 5 skills?
And who Lucina's mother is needs to be decided, since that affects what skills she gets. I'm assuming we just make her Robin's daughter so she'll have access to all classes and skills?

 

[Munomario777]

No, my argument is he's no more vulnerable to a bullet bill than a Goomba in any of his forms.

Mario's power-ups can each block a deadly blow in the Mario games. Thus, I'd like to propose that we treat Mario's power-ups as essentially another human's worth of durability (so once he takes a deadly amount of damage with a Fire Flower, he reverts to Super Mario, etc.). What do you all think?

I was just saying if he is 2d. I'm assuming he's just flat, which could make him extremely hard to see if he maintains the right angle, but that wouldn't be a big deal for anyone with an AoE attack or who is fast. Might give him the edge over some of his fellow bottom tier peers though.

Ah. I agree then.

 

[Crystanium]

And yet we're working with them stacking (or at least you are, given your analyses).

We don't have to. Perhaps the golden gauntlets override the power bracelet in terms of enhanced strength, so it wouldn't matter if Link wore the power bracelets or not.

Presumably, they are the same as/similar to those used in real life instant cameras. Gameplay and lore don't give specifics, so we can resort to real life.

Presumably it looks like an instant camera, but does not share the same or similar tech specs. I don't understand the logic of resorting to real life because lore doesn't offer tech specs.

...which is rather advanced technology for a medieval setting.

That still doesn't prove Link's bombs use TNT.

Are you sure that there's not a better angle that could be used to calculate the explosion's power? That is a rather large distance between Samus (the best point of reference here) and the blast, after all.

Not that I know of. There's more to an explosion than a fireball. There's the blast wave, thermal radiation, and radiation as well. Should we be able to see the shock wave, that would at least indicate it's near 10 meters. That makes me wonder if I could determine how many grams are in one bomb in WW just by looking at it, assuming the inside consists entirely of black powder, while the outside consists of the layering.

In my previous calculation with the video of Link next to a bomb, Link's height was 86 px. It was presumed Link's height is 147.32 cm. Link's bomb is 38 px., or 65.094883720930237012 cm. in diameter. The casing of the bomb will be 1 px., or 1.713023255813955544 cm. thick. Using the volume of a sphere, we end up with a volume of 133,319.467801275954623030977 for the inside of the sphere.

It looks like modern day gunpowder has a density of 1.7 g/cm^3, so that would mean one bomb contains 226.64 kg. of gunpowder. There are 3,000 joules per gram of gunpowder. If there are 226,643.1 grams in one bomb, then that means one bomb would produce 679,929,285.79 joules, or a TNT equivalent of 162.51 kg. A total of 8 would produce 1.3 tons of TNT. (TNT has an energy density of 4.6 MJ/kg, while gunpowder has 3 MJ/kg., which is why the numbers look different when seen from a TNT equivalent.)

 

[Munomario777]

We don't have to. Perhaps the golden gauntlets override the power bracelet in terms of enhanced strength, so it wouldn't matter if Link wore the power bracelets or not.

I think we should allow stacking items as long as they don't physically interfere with each other (i.e. two pairs of power gloves).

Presumably it looks like an instant camera, but does not share the same or similar tech specs. I don't understand the logic of resorting to real life because lore doesn't offer tech specs.

When lore does not provide tech specs, we can resort to real life. It's an instant camera with many similar components to those found in real life (lens, flash, etc.), so it's reasonable to assume that the interior is also similar.

That still doesn't prove Link's bombs use TNT.

Your using gunpowder for the calculations was based on the medieval setting and similar level of technology. Since the level of technology has been proved to be at least that of modern times, we cannot assume that it's gunpowder based on these reasons.

Not that I know of. There's more to an explosion than a fireball. There's the blast wave, thermal radiation, and radiation as well. Should we be able to see the shock wave, that would at least indicate it's near 10 meters. That makes me wonder if I could determine how many grams are in one bomb in WW just by looking at it, assuming the inside consists entirely of black powder, while the outside consists of the layering.

In my previous calculation with the video of Link next to a bomb, Link's height was 86 px. It was presumed Link's height is 147.32 cm. Link's bomb is 38 px., or 65.094883720930237012 cm. in diameter. The casing of the bomb will be 1 px., or 1.713023255813955544 cm. thick. Using the volume of a sphere, we end up with a volume of 133,319.467801275954623030977 for the inside of the sphere.

It looks like modern day gunpowder has a density of 1.7 g/cm^3, so that would mean one bomb contains 226.64 kg. of gunpowder. There are 3,000 joules per gram of gunpowder. If there are 226,643.1 grams in one bomb, then that means one bomb would produce 679,929,285.79 joules, or a TNT equivalent of 162.51 kg. A total of 8 would produce 1.3 tons of TNT. (TNT has an energy density of 4.6 MJ/kg, while gunpowder has 3 MJ/kg., which is why the numbers look different when seen from a TNT equivalent.)

Hmm, interesting. That's actually a bit less than your previous calculation using one bomb's blast radius. Apparently it's just really packed in there (that or the outer shell is a bit thinner than that). How much TNT force would this be with other common explosives out of curiosity? (Preferably using your previous calculation based on the blast radius.)

 

[Crystanium]

I think we should allow stacking items as long as they don't physically interfere with each other (i.e. two pairs of power gloves).

As I mentioned in the past, stacking is only seen in the Metroid series. Not even Mega Man has that ability. I will just ignore it in favor of using optimal items and gear.

When lore does not provide tech specs, we can resort to real life. It's an instant camera with many similar components to those found in real life (lens, flash, etc.), so it's reasonable to assume that the interior is also similar.

That seems to be the consensus, but only because it simplifies things.

Your using gunpowder for the calculations was based on the medieval setting and similar level of technology. Since the level of technology has been proved to be at least that of modern times, we cannot assume that it's gunpowder based on these reasons.

Gunpowder is still used today.

Hmm, interesting. That's actually a bit less than your previous calculation using one bomb's blast radius. Apparently it's just really packed in there (that or the outer shell is a bit thinner than that). How much TNT force would this be with other common explosives out of curiosity? (Preferably using your previous calculation based on the blast radius.)

I'm not aiming for what is a bit less or a bit more. I'm aiming for a more reasonable approach. The inside of a bomb is probably not as simplified as I made it. After all, one bomb is way above what your typical RPG can produce. A thinner shell would make it more pliable and not ideal for holding in the explosive. I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you're asking me the TNT equivalent if I used TNT instead of gunpowder?

TNT has a density of 1.65 g/cm^3. That would mean there's a total of 219,977.12187210532512800111205 grams in one bomb. 1 gram of TNT in joule is 4,184, which would mean that if we used TNT instead of gunpowder, one bomb would be equal to 219.98 kg. of TNT. With eight, that'd be 1.759 tons of TNT. That would put be slightly higher than the one super missile that produces 1.74 tons of TNT.

 

[Munomario777]

As I mentioned in the past, stacking is only seen in the Metroid series. Not even Mega Man has that ability. I will just ignore it in favor of using optimal items and gear.

I think we should allow items to stack. I suggest we put it up to a vote.

That seems to be the consensus, but only because it simplifies things.

That and it gives us specifics that we wouldn't have otherwise.

Gunpowder is still used today.

Yes, but so is TNT. Since there are other explosives that are used today, we can't just assume that it's gunpowder.

I'm not aiming for what is a bit less or a bit more. I'm aiming for a more reasonable approach. The inside of a bomb is probably not as simplified as I made it. After all, one bomb is way above what your typical RPG can produce. A thinner shell would make it more pliable and not ideal for holding in the explosive. I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you're asking me the TNT equivalent if I used TNT instead of gunpowder?

Hmm, true. And yes, that is what I'm asking.

TNT has a density of 1.65 g/cm^3. That would mean there's a total of 219,977.12187210532512800111205 grams in one bomb. 1 gram of TNT in joule is 4,184, which would mean that if we used TNT instead of gunpowder, one bomb would be equal to 219.98 kg. of TNT. With eight, that'd be 1.759 tons of TNT. That would put be slightly higher than the one super missile that produces 1.74 tons of TNT.

I see. Seeing as how Bombs and Super Missiles appear to be a similar size, this seems reasonable.

 

[Crystanium]

I think we should allow items to stack. I suggest we put it up to a vote.

Well, I'm going to oppose it for the simple fact that it's an entirely Metroid thing.

That and it gives us specifics that we wouldn't have otherwise.

They're simply assumptions, however.

Yes, but so is TNT. Since there are other explosives that are used today, we can't just assume that it's gunpowder.

We cannot assume it's TNT, either. Gunpowder has a longer history. Considering it was part of Medieval technology, I see no reason to use any other explosive than that. There is no indication of bombs being used for military use in the Zeldaverse, but there are bomb flowers (and the acquisition of bombs) located around the Goron regions, meaning their use is likely for mining.

I see. Seeing as how Bombs and Super Missiles appear to be a similar size, this seems reasonable.

Except the blast radius is wider for a super missile than it is for a bomb.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue

I thought we were holding FE characters to only 5 skills?

Oh, okay then. Robin as Lucina's mom sounds good.

 

[Crystanium]

I want to demonstrate how powerful the hyper beam is.

If the hyper beam also one-shots Mother Brain in Metroid: Other M's cut-scene, then I'd imagine that's how it would be against the majority of the bosses in the video.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, I'm going to oppose it for the simple fact that it's an entirely Metroid thing.

Okay. Stacking items isn't exclusive to Metroid, by the way; off of the top of my head, in Mario, Starmen can stack with any other power-up. Also, Super Sonic can have any type of Shield equipped, and the effects will stay (i.e. with a Thunder Shield, Rings will attract).

They're simply assumptions, however.

And they are assumptions we must make, since the games don't clarify.

We cannot assume it's TNT, either. Gunpowder has a longer history. Considering it was part of Medieval technology, I see no reason to use any other explosive than that. There is no indication of bombs being used for military use in the Zeldaverse, but there are bomb flowers (and the acquisition of bombs) located around the Goron regions, meaning their use is likely for mining.

There isn't a Goron region in Wind Waker, so I doubt they were used for mining in that game. However, for the time being, I'll go with mining. The most commonly used explosive for mining today (and Zelda games are rather advanced as far as technology goes even in Ocarina, because this is post-Skyward Sword and its robots) is ANFO, which appears to be much more dense than gunpowder; thus, much more could be crammed into one bomb for a much more powerful blast. My calculations were rather rough, but it seemed to have a rather large force output.

Except the blast radius is wider for a super missile than it is for a bomb.

Do you have a clearer comparison image than the one you provided earlier?

 

[Crystanium]

Okay. Stacking items isn't exclusive to Metroid, by the way; off of the top of my head, in Mario, Starmen can stack with any other power-up. Also, Super Sonic can have any type of Shield equipped, and the effects will stay (i.e. with a Thunder Shield, Rings will attract).

Having a fire flower active while using a star is not the same thing as stacking, though. If Mario could use a fire flower in conjunction with an ice flower, he would have a freezing and burning effect. This doesn't happen. If one shield in Sonic overrides another, that's not stacking.

There isn't a Goron region in Wind Waker, so I doubt they were used for mining in that game. However, for the time being, I'll go with mining. The most commonly used explosive for mining today (and Zelda games are rather advanced as far as technology goes even in Ocarina, because this is post-Skyward Sword and its robots) is ANFO, which appears to be much more dense than gunpowder; thus, much more could be crammed into one bomb for a much more powerful blast. My calculations were rather rough, but it seemed to have a rather large force output.

ANFO was discovered in 1955, which is later than TNT.

Do you have a clearer comparison image than the one you provided earlier?

Here's a closer explosion, but this is the best I could get where the explosion is dissipating.

If I take the radius of that explosion as it is here, it'd be about 3 Samus' long, or 5.7 meters, which would result in 2.58 tons of TNT. This is only taking the fireball into consideration and ignoring that shock wave or whatever it was.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I think any holy weapon will work, not dependent on how powerful the god is.

Ok.

How do we treat them in relation to what?

In relation to their respective Resistance/Magic Defense stats. For example, do we use Mewtwo’s special defense(Pokemon) stat to defend against Robin's Aversa’s Night(Fire Emblem Magical Attack)?

I personally think we should remove critical hits.

That would nerf Shulk, and severely nerf several of Robin and Lucina’s options including wrath and killer weapons.

Max stats, but movement is a game mechanic and is removed.

The Movement stat is a representation of how far a character can move in a given period of time. Characters with faster movement can chase down slower characters so that sounds pretty important to me!

It would change things, though Charizard isn't a dragon.

Charizard may not be a dragon but Mega Charizard X is classified as a Fire/Dragon type.

All of them.

Acceptable.

I was just saying if he is 2d. I'm assuming he's just flat, which could make him extremely hard to see if he maintains the right angle, but that wouldn't be a big deal for anyone with an AoE attack or who is fast. Might give him the edge over some of his fellow bottom tier peers though.

Agreed.

Shield isn't a buff (it would be closer to dual guarding in FE:A), Speed is debatable (essentially a drastic evasion boost, but if I'm not mistaken makes you dodge almost all physical attacks assuming the enemy your fighting isn't much stronger than you), but you're right about Armor being a buff.

Monado Shield does not have a 2nd person come in and block a attack, and it is a Buff(youtube.com/watch?v=imKVglbON1w&index=8&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP(6:22-6:40), you can see it in the character windows on the left side of the screen where buffs are usually displayed. Reyn’s buff indicator even switches between displaying it and his Defense up buff.). You’re right about Speed being dramatic as +190 to Evasion is nearly impossible to overcome. Just to let you know you can use Enchant, Shield, Speed and Armor in the time between giving the order to attack and when the battle is joined(Example: Magestic Mordred: youtube.com/watch?v=nQcT8iRXZf8(0:10-0:20).

Nihil not working probably means her attack isn't an advanced skill, not that it works against AOE.

Nihil is never seen blocking any AOEs because there are no AOE skills. Maybe I shouldn't have brought up Nihil.

No one that I'm aware of.

okay.

I was referring to battle skills.
You can't manually use any skills in an FE battle, so I don't think that limitation should apply.

Gamble(Halves hit rate and doubles crit rate) and Parity(Cancels both combatants’ skills along with support and terrain bonuses) are battle related skills that are activated manually before combat commences.

Treat them as far as what?

In relation to their respective Resistance/Magic Defense stats.

So his attacks critical 75% of the time?

More than 75%! 5%(base)+75% Monado III(Weapon Bonus)+30%(very high Tension Bonus)+20%(Bravery Skill Tree bonus)+25% Critical Up gem=155% Critical hit rate. The first 2 bonuses combined with any one of the latter 3 give him a perfect critical hit rate against anyone who lacks means of mitigating(FE Luck stat) or negating(FE Fortune Skill) it. Unfortunately if we use account for Critical Hits we would have to account for how much extra damage is receive. For example Xenoblade uses 1.25 times damage and Fire Emblem uses 3 times damage.

We're not using stats like that since they don't translate smoothly to a non RPG. But when stats do apply it's always max.

Understood.

Yes, they would make his attacks stronger. None of us have done those match-ups, so we can't say if it would change the match-up.

Understood. Can Fire Emblem characters hit Pokemon type weaknesses with Weapons and Elemental Magic, Ex. Aversa’s Night(Dark) vs Mewtwo(weak to Dark type).

Lucina's a Great Lord but can change into any class. Robin also can switch classes at will. So if he wants to change into a Dark Flier to avoid ground attacks he could. I've argued his default class should be Sorcerer with the skills. I'll explain my reasonings for the ones you might question:

• Vantage
• Sol- combined with Aversa's night, can let him recover 100% of hp dealt. You could also argue for Luna here, but I feel constantly being able to heal is more helpful.
• Counter- limits most people from being able to attack with melee options
• Limit Breaker- so he can have max stats. Difference between his skills activating around 40% of the time vs 50% of the time.
• Armsthrift

• Wouldn’t Vantage only be good for getting First Blood? Surely there is a better use for that slot.
• Good.
• Ike can break through with Nihil or Parity. Shulk can halve auto attack-counter damage with a Talent Boost gem, Suppress counter damage with Monado Purge(disables Spike damage for a short time) or ignore it entirely with Spike Defense gems and skills. It would be effective against the greater part of the cast though.
• Good.
• The 10 uses of Aversa’s Night might not last the whole battle, so I agree with this pick.

And who Lucina's mother is needs to be decided, since that affects what skills she gets. I'm assuming we just make her Robin's daughter so she'll have access to all classes and skills?

Class and Skill diversity is probably better than a few different stat caps, so go with it.

Mario's power-ups can each block a deadly blow in the Mario games. Thus, I'd like to propose that we treat Mario's power-ups as essentially another human's worth of durability (so once he takes a deadly amount of damage with a Fire Flower, he reverts to Super Mario, etc.). What do you all think?

Has anyone considered using Super Mario RPG(Mario, Bowser, Peach) or the Mario and Luigi(Self Explanatory) games’ health systems to get around the OHKO Goomba problem.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
Sp. Def and Resistance stats are only good against energy attacks, that's how it should work.

@ Munomario777
If we're altering health systems based on durability, then that means each of Kirby's health units equals a planetary+ attack, because that's what his durability is like.

Also, power-ups don't block deadly blows. Lava, crushing, and black holes can all instantly one-shot Mario with a power-up.

 

[Munomario777]

Having a fire flower active while using a star is not the same thing as stacking, though. If Mario could use a fire flower in conjunction with an ice flower, he would have a freezing and burning effect. This doesn't happen. If one shield in Sonic overrides another, that's not stacking.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Still, it's not unique to Samus. Off of the top of my head, if Super Sonic (who is usually vulnerable to drowning) has a Bubble Shield equipped, then he will be able to breathe underwater like Hyper Sonic can.

ANFO was discovered in 1955, which is later than TNT.

And? The Zeldaverse is clearly advanced enough as far as technology goes to have access to at least 1955 technology.

Here's a closer explosion, but this is the best I could get where the explosion is dissipating.

If I take the radius of that explosion as it is here, it'd be about 3 Samus' long, or 5.7 meters, which would result in 2.58 tons of TNT. This is only taking the fireball into consideration and ignoring that shock wave or whatever it was.

I see. That doesn't seem to be three Samuses tall, though, especially since she's sort of crouching down a bit. Now, if I just find an image of Samus standing upright, scale it correctly, and...

...It seems to be a little under 2.5 Samus heights. What would the TNT equivalent be with that measurement?

Has anyone considered using Super Mario RPG(Mario, Bowser, Peach) or the Mario and Luigi(Self Explanatory) games’ health systems to get around the OHKO Goomba problem.

I'd rather not mix health systems. I say we just keep it simple and treat every power-up stage as a human's durability.

 

[Nerdicon]

Mario's power-ups can each block a deadly blow in the Mario games. Thus, I'd like to propose that we treat Mario's power-ups as essentially another human's worth of durability (so once he takes a deadly amount of damage with a Fire Flower, he reverts to Super Mario, etc.). What do you all think?

No, a small harmless fish swimming towards Mario counts as a fatal attack? Not in this universe.

Ah. I agree then.

While I was mostly joking in the spirit of the holiday (), a purely 2D object could not be harmed. But since real world logic is below alternate canon, and G&W can be launched like a ragdoll in Smash, you should've figured that I was joking.

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
@ Munomario777
If we're altering health systems based on durability, then that means each of Kirby's health units equals a planetary+ attack, because that's what his durability is like.

Also, power-ups don't block deadly blows. Lava, crushing, and black holes can all instantly one-shot Mario with a power-up.

Except Kirby uses his health bar which is a more dynamic measure of health, and a better representation then the bars.

We've gotten quite sidetracked here haven't we?
And I honestly don't think a bracket is the best way to measure strength: it leads to unfair match-ups that may down otherwise good characters
Best example being vs
If Samus didn't go up against Ganondorf she would've made it much farther in the bracket, making the whole thing rather inaccurate and luck based.
In my opinion, we should represent the characters and discuss all of the match-ups involving them so we get a good idea what each character can do, like making match-up charts for a fighting game.
(For the record I'd be fine representing Kirby and Pit)

 

[Munomario777]

No, a small harmless fish swimming towards Mario counts as a fatal attack? Not in this universe.

Poison-coated fish perhaps?

While I was mostly joking in the spirit of the holiday (), a purely 2D object could not be harmed. But since real world logic is below alternate canon, and G&W can be launched like a ragdoll in Smash, you should've figured that I was joking.

Oh, haha.

And I honestly don't think a bracket is the best way to measure strength: it leads to unfair match-ups that may down otherwise good characters
Best example being vs
If Samus didn't go up against Ganondorf she would've made it much farther in the bracket, making the whole thing rather inaccurate and luck based.
In my opinion, we should represent the characters and discuss all of the match-ups involving them so we get a good idea what each character can do, like making match-up charts for a fighting game.
(For the record I'd be fine representing Kirby and Pit)

Hmm. We could do that, but I still think that the bracket would be fun to have.
(I'm fine with representing Sonic, by the way )

 

[Kirby Dragons]

We've gotten quite sidetracked here haven't we?
And I honestly don't think a bracket is the best way to measure strength: it leads to unfair match-ups that may down otherwise good characters
Best example being vs
If Samus didn't go up against Ganondorf she would've made it much farther in the bracket, making the whole thing rather inaccurate and luck based.
In my opinion, we should represent the characters and discuss all of the match-ups involving them so we get a good idea what each character can do, like making match-up charts for a fighting game.
(For the record I'd be fine representing Kirby and Pit)

Are we not doing Shadow's tier list idea? Or will we do your idea in the new thread?

 

[Nerdicon]

Hmm. We could do that, but I still think that the bracket would be fun to have.
(I'm fine with representing Sonic, by the way )

If you want the bracket to be finished that's fine, I just don't think it's the most effective way of determining strength. But if it is going to be finished we need to get this thread back on track.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0
Sp. Def and Resistance stats are only good against energy attacks, that's how it should work.

It looks like some Poison-type moves are powered by the Special stat, such as Sludge which doesn‘t sound like an energy attack to me. Your line of thinking seems accurate in most situations though.

Also, power-ups don't block deadly blows. Lava, crushing, and black holes can all instantly one-shot Mario with a power-up.

I remember Mario takes normal damage from lava in Super Mario 64, but that might only be an isolated incident.

Poison-coated fish perhaps?

The Mushroom Kingdom isn’t located in Australia, so I doubt poison is the culpret.

 

[Munomario777]

The Mushroom Kingdom isn’t located in Australia, so I doubt poison is the culpret.

Who says the Mushroom Kingdom can't have poisonous fish?

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Who says the Mushroom Kingdom can't have poisonous fish?

Cheep Cheeps. More specifcally the Porcupuffer, which is a parody (assumingly) of a Puffer fish, which has poisonous barbs.

Of course the Porcupuffer never poisons so my theory may be incorrect.

 

[Crystanium]

And? The Zeldaverse is clearly advanced enough as far as technology goes to have access to at least 1955 technology.

You're missing the point that gunpowder was still commonly used as an explosive. Even if we extended up to a period of the 1800s for the Zeldaverse (considering the railroads in Spirit Tracks, though railroads have a long history as well), TNT was invented in 1863. ANFO was invented much later. That does not mean it was used as a weapon at that time, however. I also suspect there is some sort of fallacy in your reasoning. You are taking a whole (advanced technology ranging from lasers to electricity) and assuming that explosives like TNT and ANFO are a common explosive material in the Zeldaverse. I suspect this is not the case because:

• The Zeldaverse is set in a Medieval theme (ranging from the 5th to 15th century).
• Gunpowder was a common explosive in those days.

In fact, I'm going to settle this debate once and for all simply because I recalled the bomb, "powder keg". In MM, there are those creatures that look like Gorons. They're called Nejiron. If you Z-target (or L-target), Tatl says, "It smells like gunpowder!". Then there's the Gossip Stone, which says about the blast mask, "The old woman with knowledge of explosives has a dangerous mask filled with gunpowder." Now let's be done with this since you prefer lore.

I see. That doesn't seem to be three Samuses tall, though, especially since she's sort of crouching down a bit. Now, if I just find an image of Samus standing upright, scale it correctly, and...
View attachment 45680
...It seems to be a little under 2.5 Samus heights. What would the TNT equivalent be with that measurement?

I was basing the blast radius off a horizontal direction, just like I did for the bomb from WW. The explosion is larger than what's being dissipated. The explosion would have produced 1.49 tons of TNT if we went with 2.5. Not that I prefer your rip of Samus from SSB4, since that skews data.

By the way, Mario should be granted with Super Suit, which prevents every status ailment and receives no damage from elemental attacks. I don't know if Mario's head, hands, and feet are exposed, but I doubt most would go for hands and feet anyway. I don't know the extent of immunity from elemental attacks, either. For example, if there's no light or dark elemental attacks in the game, then there's no reason to think Mario is immune to light or dark attacks. The lore is making the claim, so evidence would need to come from it.

 

[Munomario777]

You're missing the point that gunpowder was still commonly used as an explosive. Even if we extended up to a period of the 1800s for the Zeldaverse (considering the railroads in Spirit Tracks, though railroads have a long history as well), TNT was invented in 1863. ANFO was invented much later. That does not mean it was used as a weapon at that time, however.

Wait, what do you mean "extending" to the 1800s? Remember, we're looking at a world that has access to robots, electric lighting, instant cameras, and even the Game Boy Advance! In terms of technology, the Zelda world is practically caught up with ours.

I also suspect there is some sort of fallacy in your reasoning. You are taking a whole (advanced technology ranging from lasers to electricity) and assuming that explosives like TNT and ANFO are a common explosive material in the Zeldaverse. I suspect this is not the case because:

• The Zeldaverse is set in a Medieval theme (ranging from the 5th to 15th century).
• Gunpowder was a common explosive in those days.

• While there may be castles and such, the technology (which is what we're discussing here, no?) is far more advanced.
• And ANFO is a common mining explosive in these days (which Zelda has practically caught up to due to the GBA).

In fact, I'm going to settle this debate once and for all simply because I recalled the bomb, "powder keg". In MM, there are those creatures that look like Gorons. They're called Nejiron. If you Z-target (or L-target), Tatl says, "It smells like gunpowder!". Then there's the Gossip Stone, which says about the blast mask, "The old woman with knowledge of explosives has a dangerous mask filled with gunpowder." Now let's be done with this since you prefer lore.

Powder keg/blast mask =/= traditional bombs.

I was basing the blast radius off a horizontal direction, just like I did for the bomb from WW. The explosion is larger than what's being dissipated. The explosion would have produced 1.49 tons of TNT if we went with 2.5. Not that I prefer your rip of Samus from SSB4, since that skews data.

Ah, I see. Samus in SSB4 is based on Other M, which is where that image is from, no?

By the way, Mario should be granted with Super Suit, which prevents every status ailment and receives no damage from elemental attacks. I don't know if Mario's head, hands, and feet are exposed, but I doubt most would go for hands and feet anyway. I don't know the extent of immunity from elemental attacks, either. For example, if there's no light or dark elemental attacks in the game, then there's no reason to think Mario is immune to light or dark attacks. The lore is making the claim, so evidence would need to come from it.

Yeah, that could come in handy, especially when he's fighting a Pokemon character.

 

[Crystanium]

Wait, what do you mean "extending" to the 1800s? Remember, we're looking at a world that has access to robots, electric lighting, instant cameras, and even the Game Boy Advance! In terms of technology, the Zelda world is practically caught up with ours.

• While there may be castles and such, the technology (which is what we're discussing here, no?) is far more advanced.
• And ANFO is a common mining explosive in these days (which Zelda has practically caught up to due to the GBA).

Powder keg/blast mask =/= traditional bombs.

I already explained what I mean. Spirit Tracks has railroads, though the history goes back farther than that. Here's some history.

• 1804, the first steam-powered locomotive was invented.
• 1809, the first electric light.
• 1814, the first photograph known as camera obscura.
• 1825, the first electromagnet is invented.
• 1831, electric dynamo is invented.
• 1884, George Eastman patents paper-strip photographic film.

In spite of presenting lore where gunpowder is clearly the explosive material of choice even after many years from Skyward Sword, you still are incredulous. You shouldn't speak highly of lore if you're not going to accept it.

Ah, I see. Samus in SSB4 is based on Other M, which is where that image is from, no?

It might be ripped from MOM, but that does not necessarily mean she's properly proportioned compared to the image of Samus within the game itself.

Yeah, that could come in handy, especially when he's fighting a Pokemon character.

Or even Samus.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Continuing the bracket, eh? This should be good.

Anyways, we were on v and v. I have a way for Kirby to win.

• The Helper function takes the Copy Ability that Kirby is using, and turns it into a helper that gives the Copy Ability.
• Kirby uses the Galaxia or Master Copy Ability, then uses the Helper function to create Meta Knight.
• Meta Knight uses Knight Call to create a couple of knights, and they all fight off the Lumas.
• When the Starman wears off, Meta Knight teleports or flies to Rosalina and slashes her dead.

Also, we haven't done a proper battle for v, so let me do that now.

vs
FIGHT!
Attacker: Link
's Attack: Arrows
Link can fire different kinds of arrows at Mewtwo, including the Ice Arrow that freezes.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to redirect the arrows and send them back.

's Attack: Boomerangs
Link can throw different boomerangs at Mewtwo, including the Magic Boomerang, with a path that can be controlled.
's Counter: Barrier
Barrier would increase Mewtwo's resistance to the boomerangs.

's Attack: Great Spin Attack
The Great Spin Attack is a powerful attack that would damage Mewtwo.
's Counter: Counter
This is a physical attack, so Mewtwo could send the damage back.

's Attack: Bombs
Link can throw bombs at Mewtwo, like the powerful Super Bomb.
's Counter: Teleport
Mewtwo could easily teleport to dodge the explosions.

's Attack: Master Sword
This is a powerful blade with the ability to repel evil.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to fling away the sword. In addition, the first move would confuse Link, making him attack with things that aren't the sword.

's Attack: Din's Fire
This coats Link with fire that can be used to hurt an enemy.
's Counter: Protect
Mewtwo could use a forcefield to protect himself from the fire.

's Attack: Hammers
Link wields powerful hammers that can be used as weapons.
's Counter: Counter
The hammers are physical, so Counter would send the damage back at Link. Mewtwo could also just dodge the hammers.
Attacker: Mewtwo
's Attack: Psychic
Mewtwo can fire a wave of psychic energy.
's Counter: Magic Armor
The Magic Armor protects Link from any attack.
's Counter: Mind Control
Mewtwo can control Link into taking off the armor.
's Counter: Magic Armor
Link's armor would block the mind control.
's Counter: Nice Try Bro
You can't block what you can't touch.

's Attack: Psystrike
Mewtwo can use a powerful pulse of psychic energy.
's Counter: Magic Cape
The Magic Cape turns Link both invisible and intangible.
's Counter: Magic Meter
The cape would greatly drain Link's magic.
's Counter: Chateau Romani
The Chateau Romani gives Link unlimited magic for three days.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to crush the drink.

's Attack: Hyper Beam
Mewtwo can fire a long-ranged beam.
's Counter: Hylian Shield
Link would block the beam with an indestructible shield.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to fling the shield away.
's Counter: Hookshot/Clawshot
These chains would allow Link to get the Hylian Shield back.
's Counter: Hyper Beam
Mewtwo would fire his beam while Link is retrieving the shield.

's Attack: Aura Sphere
Mewtwo can fire a sphere of aura that's effective against normal-types (Link), and never misses.
's Counter: Hylian Shield
Link could block the sphere with an indestructible shield.
's Counter: Type Advantages/Disadvantages
The shield is metal, and Aura Sphere is effective against metal.

's Attack: Thunder
Mewtwo can strike with a bolt of lightning from above.
's Counter: N/A
Nothing would stop the lightning bolt.

's Attack: Mega Mewtwo
Mewtwo can Mega Evolve into a being of universal power.
's Counter: N/A
Mega Mewtwo's power is too extreme for Link.
Summary
Mewtwo can easily dodge or block all of Link's attacks. Confusion/Psychic would allow Mewtwo to get rid of Link's items, leaving him with nothing useful. The winner is .

 

[Munomario777]

I already explained what I mean. Spirit Tracks has railroads, though the history goes back farther than that. Here's some history.

• 1804, the first steam-powered locomotive was invented.
• 1809, the first electric light.
• 1814, the first photograph known as camera obscura.
• 1825, the first electromagnet is invented.
• 1831, electric dynamo is invented.
• 1884, George Eastman patents paper-strip photographic film.

I'll make my points as clear as possible.

The Game Boy Advance was introduced in 2001.
Wind Waker contains a Game Boy Advance.
Therefore, Wind Waker has access to 2001 technology.

Wind Waker (and the whole series, because robots) has access to 2001 technology.
ANFO was around in 2001.
Therefore, the Zelda series has ANFO.

The Zelda series has ANFO, which is used for mining.
Bombs are used for mining.
Therefore, it is most likely that the bombs use ANFO.

Bombs use ANFO.
ANFO is really freakin' powerful.
Therefore, bombs are really freakin' powerful.

Bombs are really freakin' powerful.
The Magic Armor can withstand eight of them at once, repeatedly.
Therefore, the Magic Armor is nigh-indestructible.

Therefore, Link wins.

In spite of presenting lore where gunpowder is clearly the explosive material of choice even after many years from Skyward Sword, you still are incredulous. You shouldn't speak highly of lore if you're not going to accept it.

The lore in question is referring to the powder keg and the blast mask, not the traditional bombs.

It might be ripped from MOM, but that does not necessarily mean she's properly proportioned compared to the image of Samus within the game itself.

True. I measured the helmets to get it scaled properly, but it's obviously not going to be perfect.

Or even Samus.

Yes, depending on the attack.

Continuing the bracket, eh? This should be good.

Anyways, we were on v and v. I have a way for Kirby to win.

• The Helper function takes the Copy Ability that Kirby is using, and turns it into a helper that gives the Copy Ability.
• Kirby uses the Galaxia or Master Copy Ability, then uses the Helper function to create Meta Knight.
• Meta Knight uses Knight Call to create a couple of knights, and they all fight off the Lumas.
• When the Starman wears off, Meta Knight teleports or flies to Rosalina and slashes her dead.

Since when can Kirby create Meta Knight?

Also, we haven't done a proper battle for v, so let me do that now.

vs
FIGHT!
Attacker: Link
's Attack: Arrows
Link can fire different kinds of arrows at Mewtwo, including the Ice Arrow that freezes.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to redirect the arrows and send them back.

Confusion and Psychic have limited uses, and they aren't used to move objects.

's Attack: Boomerangs
Link can throw different boomerangs at Mewtwo, including the Magic Boomerang, with a path that can be controlled.
's Counter: Barrier
Barrier would increase Mewtwo's resistance to the boomerangs.

Barrier has limited uses.

's Attack: Great Spin Attack
The Great Spin Attack is a powerful attack that would damage Mewtwo.
's Counter: Counter
This is a physical attack, so Mewtwo could send the damage back.

Mewtwo cannot learn Counter.

's Attack: Bombs
Link can throw bombs at Mewtwo, like the powerful Super Bomb.
's Counter: Teleport
Mewtwo could easily teleport to dodge the explosions.

Teleport has limited uses.

's Attack: Master Sword
This is a powerful blade with the ability to repel evil.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to fling away the sword. In addition, the first move would confuse Link, making him attack with things that aren't the sword.

Confusion and Psychic have limited uses. Confusion only has a small chance of confusing the target.

's Attack: Din's Fire
This coats Link with fire that can be used to hurt an enemy.
's Counter: Protect
Mewtwo could use a forcefield to protect himself from the fire.[/quote{
Protect has limited uses.

's Attack: Hammers
Link wields powerful hammers that can be used as weapons.
's Counter: Counter
The hammers are physical, so Counter would send the damage back at Link. Mewtwo could also just dodge the hammers.

Mewtwo cannot learn Counter.

Also, you're ignoring many of Link's items such as his speed, defense, strength, etc. enhancements.

Attacker: Mewtwo

's Attack: Psychic
Mewtwo can fire a wave of psychic energy.
's Counter: Magic Armor
The Magic Armor protects Link from any attack.
's Counter: Mind Control
Mewtwo can control Link into taking off the armor.
's Counter: Magic Armor
Link's armor would block the mind control.
's Counter: Nice Try Bro
You can't block what you can't touch.

Protect blocks psychic attacks.
Magic Armor is similar to Protect.
Mind control is a psychic attack.
Therefore, Magic Armor can block mind control.

's Attack: Psystrike
Mewtwo can use a powerful pulse of psychic energy.
's Counter: Magic Cape
The Magic Cape turns Link both invisible and intangible.
's Counter: Magic Meter
The cape would greatly drain Link's magic.
's Counter: Chateau Romani
The Chateau Romani gives Link unlimited magic for three days.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to crush the drink.

Magic Armor can be equipped prior to drinking Chateau Romani. This would prevent the bottle from being attacked.

's Attack: Hyper Beam
Mewtwo can fire a long-ranged beam.
's Counter: Hylian Shield
Link would block the beam with an indestructible shield.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to fling the shield away.
's Counter: Hookshot/Clawshot
These chains would allow Link to get the Hylian Shield back.
's Counter: Hyper Beam
Mewtwo would fire his beam while Link is retrieving the shield.

Magic Armor.

's Attack: Aura Sphere
Mewtwo can fire a sphere of aura that's effective against normal-types (Link), and never misses.
's Counter: Hylian Shield
Link could block the sphere with an indestructible shield.
's Counter: Type Advantages/Disadvantages
The shield is metal, and Aura Sphere is effective against metal.

Magic Armor. Also, the Hylian Shield can block all attacks, even magical ones, and the Mirror Shield can reflect them.

's Attack: Thunder
Mewtwo can strike with a bolt of lightning from above.
's Counter: N/A
Nothing would stop the lightning bolt.

Magic Armor. Also, the Master Sword attracts lightning like a lightning rod.

's Attack: Mega Mewtwo
Mewtwo can Mega Evolve into a being of universal power.
's Counter: N/A
Mega Mewtwo's power is too extreme for Link.

Magic Armor.

Summary

Mewtwo can easily dodge or block all of Link's attacks. Confusion/Psychic would allow Mewtwo to get rid of Link's items, leaving him with nothing useful. The winner is .

Summary:
Link's Magic Armor allows him to block all of Mewtwo's attacks, which all have limited uses to boot. The winner is Link.

 

[Crystanium]

The Game Boy Advance was introduced in 2001.
Wind Waker contains a Game Boy Advance.
Therefore, Wind Waker has access to 2001 technology.

Your second premise presupposes that the Tingle Tuner is actually a GBA. Considering it's called a "Tingle Tuner" and behaves rather differently than a GBA, it's not the same as the GBA you're thinking of. You also failed to prove that the Tingle Tuner is actually a GBA, rather than having the form of one. Considering the Tingle Tuner's form is changed into a bottle (hence the name, Tingle Bottle in the HD version), it proves my point as it being an add-on.

Wind Waker (and the whole series, because robots) has access to 2001 technology.
ANFO was around in 2001.
Therefore, the Zelda series has ANFO.

Your first premise needs to be proved. Your second premise is true, but your conclusion is both invalid and unsound.

The Zelda series has ANFO, which is used for mining.
Bombs are used for mining.
Therefore, it is most likely that the bombs use ANFO.

Your second premise is irrelevant, as there are other methods for mining, so your argument is a non sequitur.

Bombs use ANFO.
ANFO is really freakin' powerful.
Therefore, bombs are really freakin' powerful.

Bombs also use other types of explosive material. Your first premise is irrelevant.

Bombs are really freakin' powerful.
The Magic Armor can withstand eight of them at once, repeatedly.
Therefore, the Magic Armor is nigh-indestructible.

Probably due to the lack of a hit box. This syllogism makes no sense, though.

The lore in question is referring to the powder keg and the blast mask, not the traditional bombs.

Except it's not referring to the powder keg at all. It's referring to the Nejiron and the blast mask given by a woman with knowledge about explosives uses gunpowder. I figured you wouldn't budge, which makes me suspect that you're not interested in accepting everything that's lore. Here's more.

Bomb-Master Cannon: Cannon is the world's only maker of bombs. He considers himself a magician with gunpowder and other explosives. His hairstyle is as unique as his talent.

The blast ring in OoS is known as "gunpowder ring" in Japanese. So much for lore. Now it's excuses. Have fun with that.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Since when can Kirby create Meta Knight?

I just explained how he does it.

Confusion and Psychic have limited uses, and they aren't used to move objects.

Sometimes, they're used to move objects. And Link doesn't have an unlimited amount of arrows.

Barrier has limited uses.

And the boost lasts for a while.

Teleport has limited uses.

So do the bombs.

Confusion and Psychic have limited uses. Confusion only has a small chance of confusing the target.

He can still use telekinesis.

And, even if the moves do have limited uses, Link doesn't know that. He won't keep attacking if Mewtwo keeps countering everything he does for a long time.

Protect blocks psychic attacks.
Magic Armor is similar to Protect.
Mind control is a psychic attack.
Therefore, Magic Armor can block mind control.

Mind controlling isn't a psychic attack. Not to mention, Magic Armor is more similar to Barrier and Light Screen than it is Protect, and Mewtwo can still affect Pokemon that are using those.

 

[Munomario777]

Your second premise presupposes that the Tingle Tuner is actually a GBA. Considering it's called a "Tingle Tuner" and behaves rather differently than a GBA, it's not the same as the GBA you're thinking of. You also failed to prove that the Tingle Tuner is actually a GBA, rather than having the form of one. Considering the Tingle Tuner's form is changed into a bottle (hence the name, Tingle Bottle in the HD version), it proves my point as it being an add-on.

It has a color screen, a wireless antenna, buttons similar to those on electronic devices (such as itself), etc. etc. Even if it isn't actually a GBA, it shares many properties and parts with a GBA.

Your first premise needs to be proved. Your second premise is true, but your conclusion is both invalid and unsound.

First premise proved. Allow me to restate my conclusion:
Therefore, the Zeldaverse could potentially have ANFO, and the time period is not an issue.

Your second premise is irrelevant, as there are other methods for mining, so your argument is a non sequitur.

(...) there are bomb flowers (and the acquisition of bombs) located around the Goron regions, meaning their use is likely for mining.

Bombs also use other types of explosive material. Your first premise is irrelevant.

And mining bombs usually use ANFO.

Probably due to the lack of a hit box. This syllogism makes no sense, though.

No, there's a hitbox; Link loses Rupees due to the blast. "Nigh-indestructible" as in, Samus probably won't break it anytime soon.

Except it's not referring to the powder keg at all. It's referring to the Nejiron and the blast mask given by a woman with knowledge about explosives uses gunpowder. I figured you wouldn't budge, which makes me suspect that you're not interested in accepting everything that's lore.

I will accept lore. I will not take lore describing the blast mask and apply it to a completely different item.

Here's more.

Bomb-Master Cannon: Cannon is the world's only maker of bombs. He considers himself a magician with gunpowder and other explosives. His hairstyle is as unique as his talent.

The blast ring in OoS is known as "gunpowder ring" in Japanese. So much for lore. Now it's excuses. Have fun with that.

Let me know when these start applying to the bombs.

I just explained how he does it.

Do you have a source to back up your claim?

Sometimes, they're used to move objects. And Link doesn't have an unlimited amount of arrows.

When are they used to move objects?

Link can hold up to 100 Arrows at a time. Psychic and Confusion have a combined total of 35 PP.

And the boost lasts for a while.

And the Magic Armor lasts much longer.

So do the bombs.

Link can hold up to 99 bombs. Teleport has 10 PP.

He can still use telekinesis.

Has Mewtwo been shown to have the reaction time required to catch an arrow, block a high speed sword attack, etc. even with its psychic abilities?

And, even if the moves do have limited uses, Link doesn't know that. He won't keep attacking if Mewtwo keeps countering everything he does for a long time.

Link isn't one to just give up a fight because he's getting countered.

Mind controlling isn't a psychic attack.

It is a psychic attack on one's mind. Protect blocks psychic energy, which mind control relies on.

Not to mention, Magic Armor is more similar to Barrier and Light Screen than it is Protect, and Mewtwo can still affect Pokemon that are using those.

Barrier and Light Screen are walls, which only protect the front and leave the back, sides, etc. exposed. Protect and Magic Armor are force fields covering the whole body.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Do you have a source to back up your claim?

"By sacrificing his ability, Kirby can create a Helper. Helpers are normally CPU-controlled, but can also be controlled by another player. Each Copy Ability has a corresponding Helper, excluding the limited-use abilities Crash, Mike, Paint, Cook, and Sleep."

When are they used to move objects?

It doesn't really matter, because Mewtwo has used TK before.

Link can hold up to 100 Arrows at a time. Psychic and Confusion have a combined total of 35 PP.

And when Mewtwo redirects the arrows a few times, Link stops using them.

And the Magic Armor lasts much longer.

Not when it's off.

Link can hold up to 99 bombs. Teleport has 10 PP.

And Link stops throwing bombs after a couple uses of Teleport.

Has Mewtwo been shown to have the reaction time required to catch an arrow, block a high speed sword attack, etc. even with its psychic abilities?

He's actually pretty quick. And since when do Link's attacks move at high speeds?

Link isn't one to just give up a fight because he's getting countered.

I never said he was. If one of Link's attacks consistently fails, he's not going to use the same attack.

It is a psychic attack on one's mind. Protect blocks psychic energy, which mind control relies on.

No, it doesn't damage the mind. And the Magic Armor only prevents damage on the body.

Barrier and Light Screen are walls, which only protect the front and leave the back, sides, etc. exposed. Protect and Magic Armor are force fields covering the whole body.

Magic Armor isn't a forcefield, it's a barrier. Magic Armor and Barrier/Light Screen both block damage only.

 

[Munomario777]

"By sacrificing his ability, Kirby can create a Helper. Helpers are normally CPU-controlled, but can also be controlled by another player. Each Copy Ability has a corresponding Helper, excluding the limited-use abilities Crash, Mike, Paint, Cook, and Sleep."

And when does he create Meta Knight via this method?

It doesn't really matter, because Mewtwo has used TK before.

Has he redirected arrows at those speeds though?

And when Mewtwo redirects the arrows a few times, Link stops using them.

And when Link goes through all of his items, he tries arrows again and eventually, they work.

Not when it's off.

Why would Link ever turn the Magic Armor off?

And Link stops throwing bombs after a couple uses of Teleport.

And when Link goes through all of his items, he tries bombs again and eventually, they work.

He's actually pretty quick. And since when do Link's attacks move at high speeds?

When is it shown that Mewtwo is that quick?

Link's sword slashes are rather quick in most games (off of the top of my head, a good example is A Link Between Worlds, where he can spam the sword slash like nobody's business).

I never said he was. If one of Link's attacks consistently fails, he's not going to use the same attack.

Until he uses all of his other items and gets back to the original attack.

No, it doesn't damage the mind. And the Magic Armor only prevents damage on the body.

I never said it damaged the mind. As I brought up earlier in the thread:

Attack: an aggressive and violent action against a person or place.

Anyway, in Wind Waker, there happens to be an enemy called a Poe that can "possess" Link, similar to Mewtwo's mind control. This has the effect of reversing the movement controls. I believe the Magic Armor negates this effect as well.

Magic Armor isn't a forcefield, it's a barrier. Magic Armor and Barrier/Light Screen both block damage only.

A force field is a type of barrier. I don't see why the word used matters anyways. Light Screen and Barrier don't block everything because they are vulnerable on all but one side (since they're walls in front of the user), while Magic Armor and Protect cover the whole body.

 

[Crystanium]

It has a color screen, a wireless antenna, buttons similar to those on electronic devices (such as itself), etc. etc. Even if it isn't actually a GBA, it shares many properties and parts with a GBA.

All you've demonstrated is that it looks like a GBA. Not that it matters, since the HD version portrays it as a bottle.

First premise proved. Allow me to restate my conclusion:
Therefore, the Zeldaverse could potentially have ANFO, and the time period is not an issue.

And the Zeldaverse could potentially not have ANFO. That was simple, but it's not evidence, is it? Of course not. You're working on an argument from ignorance, as I have demonstrated. You need to either present a premise we both agree on, or you need to provide evidence for said premise. If for whatever reason it is contrary to what you perceive to be true, you must allow truth to correct. I'll be waiting, preferably from lore.

And mining bombs usually use ANFO.

And black powder, and dynamite, and TNT.

No, there's a hitbox; Link loses Rupees due to the blast. "Nigh-indestructible" as in, Samus probably won't break it anytime soon.

Assuming we're using the HD version.

I will accept lore. I will not take lore describing the blast mask and apply it to a completely different item.

In spite of gunpowder being the common explosive in the Zeldaverse, especially from two persons with knowledge in explosives. If I cannot outright prove with certainty, I can prove with probability.

Let me know when these start applying to the bombs.

Well, let's see. You earn bombs in MM from the old lady. You earn bombs from Bomb-Master Cannon, more or less in WW. (He was robbed.) "Gunpowder" is the explosive they work with. Let me know when TNT or ANFO is being used and is a common explosive in the Zeldaverse.

 

[Munomario777]

All you've demonstrated is that it looks like a GBA. Not that it matters, since the HD version portrays it as a bottle.

It has a full color screen. That alone makes it far beyond medieval technology.

And the Zeldaverse could potentially not have ANFO. That was simple, but it's not evidence, is it? Of course not. You're working on an argument from ignorance, as I have demonstrated. You need to either present a premise we both agree on, or you need to provide evidence for said premise. If for whatever reason it is contrary to what you perceive to be true, you must allow truth to correct. I'll be waiting, preferably from lore.

Your claim that the bombs use gunpowder (and thus not ANFO) was based on the medieval setting. Since that is no longer a factor, and the Zeldaverse has been shown to have modern technology (robots alone prove my point), then we look at the other factors, such as its use. The time period isn't proof either way, but the modern technology level opens up more possibilities besides gunpowder, if that makes sense.

And black powder, and dynamite, and TNT.

ANFO is the most common, though.

Assuming we're using the HD version.

Why specifically the HD version?

In spite of gunpowder being the common explosive in the Zeldaverse, especially from two persons with knowledge in explosives. If I cannot outright prove with certainty, I can prove with probability.

I'll prove with probability as well:
Bombs are used for mining.
ANFO is the most common explosive for mining.
Therefore, ANFO is the most likely explosive for bombs (based on their use for mining).

Well, let's see. You earn bombs in MM from the old lady. You earn bombs from Bomb-Master Cannon, more or less in WW. (He was robbed.) Let me know when TNT or ANFO is being used and is a common explosive in the Zeldaverse.

The quote about the old lady, from the Gossip Stone:
"The old woman with knowledge of explosives has a dangerous mask filled with gunpowder."
Her mask containing gunpowder doesn't mean that the bombs at the shop use this material. A comparison would be the owner of a gas stove store owning an electric one at his house. Just because he owns an electric stove doesn't mean he sells them.
As for Bomb-Master Cannon:
"He considers himself a magician with gunpowder and other explosives."
So yeah. This doesn't rule out other explosives at all. In fact, it would be a bit odd to include this if the bombs were made of gunpowder.