Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Crystanium]

It has a full color screen. That alone makes it far beyond medieval technology.

It doesn't matter, since it's not a GBA in the HD version.

Your claim that the bombs use gunpowder (and thus not ANFO) was based on the medieval setting. Since that is no longer a factor, and the Zeldaverse has been shown to have modern technology (robots alone prove my point), then we look at the other factors, such as its use. The time period isn't proof either way, but the modern technology level opens up more possibilities besides gunpowder, if that makes sense.

Considering it has the longest history, especially in Medieval times, which the games are based around, yes I did claim these and my claim was justified by lore. Advanced technology isn't proof, either. "The Zeldaverse has advanced technology, therefore the bombs must also be advanced." Honestly, where is the connection? I would expect Link's chain mail to be plate armor or see him driving an Impala all because the Zeldaverse has advanced technology. Your reasoning makes no sense in this regard.

ANFO is the most common, though.

And I proved that gunpowder is the common explosive material in the Zeldaverse.

Why specifically the HD version?

Why not? You used that when I brought up the pictograph having to use the forest fairy. Don't call the kettle black. We may as well use the HD version, since it's the current one.

I'll prove with probability as well:
Bombs are used for mining.
ANFO is the most common explosive for mining.
Therefore, ANFO is the most likely explosive for bombs (based on their use for mining).

Your premise is only applicable for today's world. There's no evidence of its existence in the Zeldaverse. You do realize that, right? It doesn't matter how many times you assert that, it doesn't make it true.

The quote about the old lady, from the Gossip Stone:
"The old woman with knowledge of explosives has a dangerous mask filled with gunpowder."
Her mask containing gunpowder doesn't mean that the bombs at the shop use this material. A comparison would be the owner of a gas stove store owning an electric one at his house. Just because he owns an electric stove doesn't mean he sells them.

It's a more likely candidate than ANFO, however. Again, I'm not even trying to prove with certainty, only with probability based on its commonality.

As for Bomb-Master Cannon:
"He considers himself a magician with gunpowder and other explosives."
So yeah. This doesn't rule out other explosives at all. In fact, it would be a bit odd to include this if the bombs were made of gunpowder.

Yes, other explosives. I'm quite aware of that and I posted it anyway because I'm not going to sidestep the evidence. It's up to you to prove that "other explosives" refers to ANFO. After all, considering he's in WW and considering there aren't any mines in WW as you pointed out, it makes no sense for him to have possession of ANFO. Furthermore, as Wikipedia states, ANFO is more of a blasting agent than it is a high explosive. Not only that, but because of its insensitivity, i.e., shock won't affect it, it generally requires an explosive booster. Link can hit those bombs, though, and he doesn't require an explosive booster. Just strike it and it blows up. Now that's sensitive.

 

[Protocol 02]

Ok, I've been reading this thread for awhile now and decided to make an account to participate a bit from time to time.

Now about the technology in Zelda, weren't all the robots, mining facility, etc. All from the past centuries before skyward sword? As from what I remember all the robots (execpt for the two you destroy) no longer work unless you activate a timeshift stone in their vincinity, which basicly locally reverses time to when they still worked.

Also seeing as they run on the oil from a now long extinct plant they should have no influence on WW technology as none are present, plus Gondo never figured out how it worked or that it lacked fuel until he tries the flower from the past recommended by his grandad on Scrapper the only working robot (which will eventually require fuel again) of that time.

Furthermore it seems likely that it was the thunder dragon Lanayru who actually made the robots both from design perspective (electric limbs and all) and because they refer to him as master, plus he proposes a new name for Link : LD-Link-16 a name which resembles all the model names of the ancient robots. Of course after being revived and singing his song this dragon is nowhere to be seen in the present and can only be talked to in the distant past of timeshift stones.

Theory time!
It is also theorised that Lanayru desert becomes gerudo valley later on, so since no ancient robots or mining facility can be seen they were likely looted by the thieves who didn't know how they worked and thus discarded the ''pottery'' as it looks, if I remember correctly I think there was a video outlining how the spirit temple and other structures were the actual minig facility and other parts of the now forgotten Lanayru.As for beamos they tough they still exist they aren't used by anyone and have shown no sign of being able to be reproduced asside from in-game dungeon spawn points.

Next up bomb damage was brought up earlier I think to 1 quarter heart for 8(I'd also like to mention I feel in-game health systems shouldn't be used for these vs battles, instead isn't better to go with survival feats?), altought I don't quite remember if it was disproved, that is very innacurate. in game 1 bomb will deal 1 quarter heart damage, while 2 simultanus bombs will also deal 1 quarter heart damage and so on, doesn't really make sense now does it? It simply how the game works in gameplay whenever you are hit by a bomb you automatically get invincibility frames ( flash red I think) and negate all further damage for a brief moment even when bombs explode simultanusly.Yes I have WW HD and I just tested, that's how it works, its the same reason why ( if I remember correctly) after you pass the take damage distance for falls you'll take the same amount of damage for all distances.

Finally as Dryn says tingle tuner is a non factor especially when it got replaced by the bottles, for the photograph isn't it iffy that in one period of time a man requires a magic fairy for color pictures and in the exact same time period the same man no longer needs them and says that was a thing of the past? I say it got a retcon.

That's all for now I guess. Oh! and gunpowder seems likely.

 

[Crystanium]

Ok, I've been reading this thread for awhile now and decided to make an account to participate a bit from time to time.

Welcome.

Furthermore it seems likely that it was the thunder dragon Lanayru who actually made the robots both from design perspective (electric limbs and all) and because they refer to him as master, plus he proposes a new name for Link : LD-Link-16 a name which resembles all the model names of the ancient robots. Of course after being revived and singing his song this dragon is nowhere to be seen in the present and can only be talked to in the distant past of timeshift stones.

Considering he oversees the Lanayru Province and has control over electricity, that is an interesting point. Now it is curious to me if there are buildings that use electricity as a power source. On Windfall Island, the lighthouse uses a flame, as does Tingle's prison cell and the pictograph building. Now that I think of it, I cannot think of any time where electricity is used for houses, which would be very useful when you compare that to using flames for your home or work.

Next up bomb damage was brought up earlier I think to 1 quarter heart for 8(I'd also like to mention I feel in-game health systems shouldn't be used for these vs battles, instead isn't better to go with survival feats?), altought I don't quite remember if it was disproved, that is very innacurate. in game 1 bomb will deal 1 quarter heart damage, while 2 simultanus bombs will also deal 1 quarter heart damage and so on, doesn't really make sense now does it? It simply how the game works in gameplay whenever you are hit by a bomb you automatically get invincibility frames ( flash red I think) and negate all further damage for a brief moment even when bombs explode simultanusly.Yes I have WW HD and I just tested, that's how it works, its the same reason why ( if I remember correctly) after you pass the take damage distance for falls you'll take the same amount of damage for all distances.

That's interesting to mention, considering this could possibly be applied to the magic armor if that's how it behaves.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Monado Shield does not have a 2nd person come in and block a attack, and it is a Buff(youtube.com/watch?v=imKVglbON1w&index=8&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP(6:22-6:40), you can see it in the character windows on the left side of the screen where buffs are usually displayed. Reyn’s buff indicator even switches between displaying it and his Defense up buff.).

That's fine it shows up on the character window, but it's still not a buff. Armor and Speed temporarily boost stats, Shield, assuming it's strong enough, blocks any one Talent art.

Gamble(Halves hit rate and doubles crit rate) and Parity(Cancels both combatants’ skills along with support and terrain bonuses) are battle related skills that are activated manually before combat commences.

Key word in your sentence is before combat commences. I'm talking about skills that can only be used once combat commences. None can be activated manually.

In relation to their respective Resistance/Magic Defense stats.

Only as a general guideline in the event they are especially weak or strong against physical/special attacks.

More than 75%! 5%(base)+75% Monado III(Weapon Bonus)+30%(very high Tension Bonus)+20%(Bravery Skill Tree bonus)+25% Critical Up gem=155% Critical hit rate. The first 2 bonuses combined with any one of the latter 3 give him a perfect critical hit rate against anyone who lacks means of mitigating(FE Luck stat) or negating(FE Fortune Skill) it. Unfortunately if we use account for Critical Hits we would have to account for how much extra damage is receive. For example Xenoblade uses 1.25 times damage and Fire Emblem uses 3 times damage.

Well that means all of his attacks hit hard.

Understood. Can Fire Emblem characters hit Pokemon type weaknesses with Weapons and Elemental Magic, Ex. Aversa’s Night(Dark) vs Mewtwo(weak to Dark type).

Yep. Applies for any match-ups, not just pokemon. Since Robin (granted by DLC) can get book of Naga, it means he can actually kill Ganondorf since that's a light spell.

• Wouldn’t Vantage only be good for getting First Blood? Surely there is a better use for that slot.
• Good.
• Ike can break through with Nihil or Parity. Shulk can halve auto attack-counter damage with a Talent Boost gem, Suppress counter damage with Monado Purge(disables Spike damage for a short time) or ignore it entirely with Spike Defense gems and skills. It would be effective against the greater part of the cast though.
• Good.
• The 10 uses of Aversa’s Night might not last the whole battle, so I agree with this pick.

• Drawing first blood can be a big deal, but the way I imagine it translating to a non-turn based scenario is something like Spidey sense or Shulk's visions, granted without actually knowing what attack is coming and only working at 50% or less health. You can proposed another skill if you think one works better.
• k.
• Yea, but that's why I said most
• k
• k

Class and Skill diversity is probably better than a few different stat caps, so go with it.

cool.

Has anyone considered using Super Mario RPG(Mario, Bowser, Peach) or the Mario and Luigi(Self Explanatory) games’ health systems to get around the OHKO Goomba problem.

What do you mean?

It's late and this post is long, so I'm just responding in bold.

Continuing the bracket, eh? This should be good.

Anyways, we were on v and v. I have a way for Kirby to win.
Also, we haven't done a proper battle for v, so let me do that now.

vs
FIGHT!
Attacker: Link
's Attack: Arrows
Link can fire different kinds of arrows at Mewtwo, including the Ice Arrow that freezes.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to redirect the arrows and send them back.
Link has more arrows than Mewtwo has uses of Psychic and confusion.


's Attack: Great Spin Attack
The Great Spin Attack is a powerful attack that would damage Mewtwo.
's Counter: Counter
This is a physical attack, so Mewtwo could send the damage back.
Mewtwo still takes the damage though, so he'd need to Recover eventually, he can't spam counter for all of Link's physical attacks.


's Attack: Master Sword
This is a powerful blade with the ability to repel evil.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to fling away the sword. In addition, the first move would confuse Link, making him attack with things that aren't the sword.
Not with Link's Titan Mitts. He can lift some ridiculously heavy objects, so let's not assume Mewtwo can easily flick away his sword. And confusion only has a 10% chance of confusing.
's Attack: Din's Fire
This coats Link with fire that can be used to hurt an enemy.
's Counter: Protect
Mewtwo could use a forcefield to protect himself from the fire.
Gets less effective with each consecutive use. Link could spam Din's Fire until breaks, which would only take 2 or 3 times.

Attacker: Mewtwo
's Attack: Psychic
Mewtwo can fire a wave of psychic energy.
's Counter: Magic Armor
The Magic Armor protects Link from any attack.
's Counter: Mind Control
Mewtwo can control Link into taking off the armor.
's Counter: Magic Armor
Link's armor would block the mind control.
's Counter: Nice Try Bro
You can't block what you can't touch.
Link uses Magic Cape instead. Can't control mind of something that is intangible.
's Attack: Psystrike
Mewtwo can use a powerful pulse of psychic energy.
's Counter: Magic Cape
The Magic Cape turns Link both invisible and intangible.
's Counter: Magic Meter
The cape would greatly drain Link's magic.
's Counter: Chateau Romani
The Chateau Romani gives Link unlimited magic for three days.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to crush the drink.
If link has Magic Cape on, neither would effect him.

's Attack: Hyper Beam
Mewtwo can fire a long-ranged beam.
's Counter: Hylian Shield
Link would block the beam with an indestructible shield.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to fling the shield away.
Not with his Titan mitts. So the below about hitting him while he's recovering his sheild is nullified.
's Attack: Aura Sphere
Mewtwo can fire a sphere of aura that's effective against normal-types (Link), and never misses.
's Counter: Hylian Shield
Link could block the sphere with an indestructible shield.
's Counter: Type Advantages/Disadvantages
The shield is metal, and Aura Sphere is effective against metal.
Doesn't change the fact it's indestructible.
's Attack: Thunder
Mewtwo can strike with a bolt of lightning from above.
's Counter: N/A
Nothing would stop the lightning bolt.
Magic cape, magic armor, Nayru's love, the green holy ring that protects him from electricity....

Summary
Mewtwo can easily dodge or block all of Link's attacks. Confusion/Psychic would allow Mewtwo to get rid of Link's items, leaving him with nothing useful. The winner is .

He is not. Barrier only reduces the damage of attacks.
Confusion and psychic only have 35 combined uses while Link has 99 arrows and bombs alone. It's a big assumption that Mewtwo can break Link's grip while he's wearing Titan's Mitt.
Protect only has 10 uses and usually used consecutively.
His only viable defense teleport, which also is limited to 20pp. Counter works, but Mewtwo takes full brunt of damage and can be easily gotten around by Link's ridiculous number of projectiles. Plus under Magic Armor/cape, Link would receive no returned damage.
You also failed to account for his Sword beam, which he could use the whole fight since Magic armor/cape can be applied in a snap and let him preserve full health.
On the other end, Link can avoid all of Mewtwo's attacks with Magic Cape and still swipe his sword at him. With Link not being tangible, Mewtwo (likely) can't use his psychic sense to detect him.

 

[Munomario777]

Considering it has the longest history, especially in Medieval times, which the games are based around, yes I did claim these and my claim was justified by lore. Advanced technology isn't proof, either. "The Zeldaverse has advanced technology, therefore the bombs must also be advanced." Honestly, where is the connection? I would expect Link's chain mail to be plate armor or see him driving an Impala all because the Zeldaverse has advanced technology. Your reasoning makes no sense in this regard.

To be clear, I wasn't saying that the advanced technology meant that the bombs were also advanced. I was saying that that meant that advanced bombs were a possibility.

Yes, other explosives. I'm quite aware of that and I posted it anyway because I'm not going to sidestep the evidence. It's up to you to prove that "other explosives" refers to ANFO. After all, considering he's in WW and considering there aren't any mines in WW as you pointed out, it makes no sense for him to have possession of ANFO. Furthermore, as Wikipedia states, ANFO is more of a blasting agent than it is a high explosive. Not only that, but because of its insensitivity, i.e., shock won't affect it, it generally requires an explosive booster. Link can hit those bombs, though, and he doesn't require an explosive booster. Just strike it and it blows up. Now that's sensitive.

Hmm, true. I suppose the top part of the bomb that connects with the fuse itself could have gunpowder or another explosive (which would make sense given the "gunpowder and other explosives" statement), but it seems a bit too complicated for a simple bomb item. Out of curiosity, does TNT share this property?

Anyway, I'm fine with working with gunpowder. Because it doesn't really matter much anyways. Let's look at the numbers. First up, Samus's Seeker Missile (one Super Missile and three regular Missiles) yields 3.14 tons of TNT, as you calculated before. Also based on your calculations, eight of Link's bombs from Wind Waker yield 1.3 tons of TNT combined, using gunpowder. The eight bombs are blocked by the Magic Armor, and they normally deal Link a quarter heart of damage (meaning that he can take this explosion 80 times in a row and live). Assuming that the Magic Armor blocks 1.3 tons of TNT from an explosion, that leaves Link withstanding 1.84 tons of TNT. This is a bit more than 1.5x the eight bombs' blast force. This equals about 3/8 of a heart per hit, or about 53 survivable hits. So Samus would need to use 53 Seeker Missiles to take down Link. However, this isn't even taking into account Link's protective items. First off, we have the Blue and Red Rings from the original game, which decrease damage taken to 1/2 and 1/4 their original amounts respectively. Should he wear both at once, this equals 1/8 the original damage. This equals 0.046875 hearts, or about 426 Seeker Missiles being survived. Samus can't even hold that many Missiles if I'm not mistaken, let alone Super Missiles, which use up four! However, I'm not stopping here. Appearing in The Adventure of Link, the Shield Spell once again reduces the damage by half. 0.0234375 hearts, or about 862 Seeker Missiles. There's also the Red and Blue Mail, but those presumably only affect his tunic area and not his entire body, so I won't be using them (although they would increase Link's survivability greatly, and could help elsewhere). Finally, in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, the Great Fairy can grant Link Enhanced Defense, reducing damage taken by half. 0.01171875 hearts, or about 1,724 Seeker Missiles.

Yeah, Samus won't be taking Link out anytime soon.

 

[Nerdicon]

Continuing the bracket, eh? This should be good.

Anyways, we were on v and v. I have a way for Kirby to win.

• The Helper function takes the Copy Ability that Kirby is using, and turns it into a helper that gives the Copy Ability.
• Kirby uses the Galaxia or Master Copy Ability, then uses the Helper function to create Meta Knight.
• Meta Knight uses Knight Call to create a couple of knights, and they all fight off the Lumas.
• When the Starman wears off, Meta Knight teleports or flies to Rosalina and slashes her dead.

That is the biggest longshot I've ever heard, and I feel there is already sufficient evidence that proves Kirby would defeat Rosalina (Invincibility + Hypernova to swallow the black holes and spit a giant killer singularity at Rosalina)

 

[Crystanium]

To be clear, I wasn't saying that the advanced technology meant that the bombs were also advanced. I was saying that that meant that advanced bombs were a possibility.

"Anything is possible, until proven otherwise." - Sherlock Holmes.

Hmm, true. I suppose the top part of the bomb that connects with the fuse itself could have gunpowder or another explosive (which would make sense given the "gunpowder and other explosives" statement), but it seems a bit too complicated for a simple bomb item. Out of curiosity, does TNT share this property?

I think all that's being said is there are other explosives Bomb-Master Cannon has, but you'll see how gunpowder is specifically worded, then "other explosives" is mentioned. So he deals with other explosives as well. I'd expect that from a master of bombs. We just don't know what those other explosives are because it's never specified. We couldn't reduce it down to ANFO, either, since there are so many explosive, not just gunpowder, dynamite, TNT, ANFO, silver azide, &c. I wouldn't be surprised if dynamite exists in the Zeldaverse, since it is at least mentioned once when the witches in OoT use their "Double Dynamite Attack" and transform into Twinrova. That could just be informal usage, though. We don't know because dynamite is never used.

TNT is also insensitive. Then again, so is black powder, unless we define its sensitivity based not only on shock, but also on an introduction to heat. In that case, then no, it's not insensitive. We can see that the bombs can be hit and will explode, however. I'm not sure why this would be the case. Arrows work on bombs as well, so I wonder if that has anything to do with the myth that if you fired a bullet at a gasoline tank that it would explode. (It wouldn't, which is why it's a myth.) So I'm not sure.

Anyway, I'm fine with working with gunpowder. Because it doesn't really matter much anyways. Let's look at the numbers. First up, Samus's Seeker Missile (one Super Missile and three regular Missiles) yields 3.14 tons of TNT, as you calculated before. Also based on your calculations, eight of Link's bombs from Wind Waker yield 1.3 tons of TNT combined, using gunpowder. The eight bombs are blocked by the Magic Armor, and they normally deal Link a quarter heart of damage (meaning that he can take this explosion 80 times in a row and live). Assuming that the Magic Armor blocks 1.3 tons of TNT from an explosion, that leaves Link withstanding 1.84 tons of TNT. This is a bit more than 1.5x the eight bombs' blast force. This equals about 3/8 of a heart per hit, or about 53 survivable hits. So Samus would need to use 53 Seeker Missiles to take down Link. However, this isn't even taking into account Link's protective items. First off, we have the Blue and Red Rings from the original game, which decrease damage taken to 1/2 and 1/4 their original amounts respectively. Should he wear both at once, this equals 1/8 the original damage. This equals 0.046875 hearts, or about 426 Seeker Missiles being survived. Samus can't even hold that many Missiles if I'm not mistaken, let alone Super Missiles, which use up four! However, I'm not stopping here. Appearing in The Adventure of Link, the Shield Spell once again reduces the damage by half. 0.0234375 hearts, or about 862 Seeker Missiles. There's also the Red and Blue Mail, but those presumably only affect his tunic area and not his entire body, so I won't be using them (although they would increase Link's survivability greatly, and could help elsewhere). Finally, in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, the Great Fairy can grant Link Enhanced Defense, reducing damage taken by half. 0.01171875 hearts, or about 1,724 Seeker Missiles.

Yeah, Samus won't be taking Link out anytime soon.

I'm sorry to see that you're fine with working with gunpowder only because you think the results don't matter, rather than because the reasoning favors the results. You do realize that's indicative of being biased, right? It tells me you only care about Link winning. I didn't have to be so kind to provide evidence or even the yield of one bomb, but I did because it's whatever the truth favors, not what I feel it should favor. So, I'm going to reiterate what Protocol 02 said about the bombs. When all eight bombs explode, Link doesn't receive more damage, he just receives the same damage if he was injured by one bomb. This means the same would apply for the magic armor.

I don't know how you got from 1.3 tons of TNT to 1.84 tons of TNT. I also don't see why I should accept your notion of heart containers. Prove that Link's items stack. Also feel free to explain how the damage reduction works for Link. Are you saying that if a bullet hit Link's forehead, he wouldn't die? Finally, let's play your little game of desperation. So one missile would equal 348.48 kg. of TNT, or 1,458,056,250 joules. One power bomb uses 58,322,250,000 joules, or 13.94 tons of TNT. It's also infinite if we're just using MOM alone, though I heard we're using composite forms now.

Edit: I tested MM and TP because those are the only Zelda games I have. In MM, I let a real bombchu hit me and received only a quarter of damage. Using the bomb mask also resulted in a quarter of damage. I set three bombs (which is the limit) and received a quarter of damage. I also set three bombs and detonated all of them using the blast mask, which resulted in only a quarter of damage. In TP, I set one bomb and resulted in half damage. I set three and that also resulted in half damage.

What this means is the amount of damage received by Link with any number of bombs is coded so that it always results in that amount of damage. To receive more than a quarter damage or half damage, another bomb has to blow up at a different time, otherwise the game reads it as one bomb. This would apply to the magic armor. As I pointed out before, you could put as many bombs as you want and still not damage the magic armor. It's coded to be that way. You could place a billion bombs in WW and nothing would happen. Therefore, the thought that multiple bombs blew up at once on Link is meaningless.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

And when does he create Meta Knight via this method?

Um, now.

That is the biggest longshot I've ever heard, and I feel there is already sufficient evidence that proves Kirby would defeat Rosalina (Invincibility + Hypernova to swallow the black holes and spit a giant killer singularity at Rosalina)

It's not really a longshot. Creating Meta Knight is the only thing that could happen when Kirby uses the Helper ability with Master/Galaxia. There's no doubt there.

Has he redirected arrows at those speeds though?

I don't think anyone's shot it with arrows. But, Mega Mewtwo's speed stat is supreme, meaning he can at least dodge everything that comes for him.

And when Link goes through all of his items, he tries arrows again and eventually, they work.

Link is defeated before that happens.

Why would Link ever turn the Magic Armor off?

Mewtwo takes it.

And when Link goes through all of his items, he tries bombs again and eventually, they work.

Link is defeated before that happens.

When is it shown that Mewtwo is that quick?

Mega Mewtwo's (and regular Mewtwo, maybe) speed stat.

Link's sword slashes are rather quick in most games (off of the top of my head, a good example is A Link Between Worlds, where he can spam the sword slash like nobody's business).

Mewtwo is fast too. And after Mewtwo dodges the slashes, he could use Mimic to use them on Link.

Until he uses all of his other items and gets back to the original attack.

Which he can't do after Mewtwo defeats him.

I never said it damaged the mind. As I brought up earlier in the thread:

definition of violent: using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

Mind controlling doesn't do any of these things, so it isn't an attack.

Anyway, in Wind Waker, there happens to be an enemy called a Poe that can "possess" Link, similar to Mewtwo's mind control. This has the effect of reversing the movement controls. I believe the Magic Armor negates this effect as well.

Mewtwo takes the Magic Armor using Trick then. Magic Armor only protects Link, it doesn't protect itself. Mewtwo doesn't have a Magic Meter, so he can use the armor indefinitely.

A force field is a type of barrier. I don't see why the word used matters anyways. Light Screen and Barrier don't block everything because they are vulnerable on all but one side (since they're walls in front of the user), while Magic Armor and Protect cover the whole body.

Yet, Pokemon attacks always hit opponents in the front, where Light Screen/Barrier are.
@ ShadowLBlue

Link has more arrows than Mewtwo has uses of Psychic and confusion.

Talked about this with Muno.

Mewtwo still takes the damage though, so he'd need to Recover eventually, he can't spam counter for all of Link's physical attacks.

Mewtwo can't actually use Counter, but he can use Mimic (and dodge Link's physical attacks).

Not with Link's Titan Mitts. He can lift some ridiculously heavy objects, so let's not assume Mewtwo can easily flick away his sword. And confusion only has a 10% chance of confusing.

Mewtwo could flick the mitts away as well, they aren't attached to Link's hands.

Link uses Magic Cape instead. Can't control mind of something that is intangible.

Mewtwo flicks the cape while Link is putting it on.

Not with his Titan mitts. So the below about hitting him while he's recovering his sheild is nullified.

Mitts get flung away.

Doesn't change the fact it's indestructible.

Hylian Shield only protects Link in one area, so Aura Sphere would go around it.

He is not. Barrier only reduces the damage of attacks.

And Protect negates it, and dodging dodges it.

Confusion and psychic only have 35 combined uses while Link has 99 arrows and bombs alone. It's a big assumption that Mewtwo can break Link's grip while he's wearing Titan's Mitt.

Mewtwo can fling the mitts away.

Protect only has 10 uses and usually used consecutively.

Dodging has infinite uses.

His only viable defense teleport, which also is limited to 20pp. Counter works, but Mewtwo takes full brunt of damage and can be easily gotten around by Link's ridiculous number of projectiles. Plus under Magic Armor/cape, Link would receive no returned damage.

Most of Link's projectiles are solid, meaning Counter would work on them (though Mewtwo can't use it anyways).

You also failed to account for his Sword beam, which he could use the whole fight since Magic armor/cape can be applied in a snap and let him preserve full health.

Magic Armor gets taken, Magic Cape gets flung.

On the other end, Link can avoid all of Mewtwo's attacks with Magic Cape and still swipe his sword at him. With Link not being tangible, Mewtwo (likely) can't use his psychic sense to detect him.

Link can't use Magic Cape because it is gone. Mewtwo dodges the swipes. Intangibility doesn't mean psychic sense doesn't work. Mewtwo also has Future Sight to see where Link attacks, then Mewtwo makes sure he isn't there.[/quote]

 

[SalsaSavant]

Villager.

He simply move his hands at a distance as summon whales to his pockets, where they will be completely helpless.
All he has to do is look at you, move his hand, and boom. You're his helpless captive.

Obviously, he's too kind to do this in AC, and can't do it in Smash because balance, but think about it.

 

[Crystanium]

It seems for the most part, non-physical attacks are considered special attacks, whereas non-physical defense is known as special defense. If magic armor is supposed to be anything like a special defense, considering there's honestly no difference between magic and psychic, then magic armor may be equivalent to special defense. Psychic is a special attack, so the magic armor might be useful against it if it's treated as special defense. If it's considered "normal" because of its lack of association with anything elemental, then it won't protect Link.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

It seems for the most part, non-physical attacks are considered special attacks, whereas non-physical defense is known as special defense. If magic armor is supposed to be anything like a special defense, considering there's honestly no difference between magic and psychic, then magic armor may be equivalent to special defense. Psychic is a special attack, so the magic armor might be useful against it if it's treated as special defense. If it's considered "normal" because of its lack of association with anything elemental, then it won't protect Link.

There are several differences between magic and psionics, so they can't really be considered the same thing. Magic Armor should be treated as both Defense and Special Defense, because it blocks both physical and non-physical attacks.

 

[Crystanium]

There are several differences between magic and psionics, so they can't really be considered the same thing. Magic Armor should be treated as both Defense and Special Defense, because it blocks both physical and non-physical attacks.

"Psychic" abilities were probably once thought to be magic in the time where magic and religion were intertwined. "Telekinesis" is magic in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

So, if the magic armor is also special armor, then psychic shouldn't be effective. It could probably do something, but it shouldn't be effective.

 

[Munomario777]

"Anything is possible, until proven otherwise." - Sherlock Holmes.

Yes. It was proven otherwise (with your medieval era argument), and now it's not (since I disproved your proof), so it is once again a possibility.

I think all that's being said is there are other explosives Bomb-Master Cannon has, but you'll see how gunpowder is specifically worded, then "other explosives" is mentioned. So he deals with other explosives as well. I'd expect that from a master of bombs. We just don't know what those other explosives are because it's never specified. We couldn't reduce it down to ANFO, either, since there are so many explosive, not just gunpowder, dynamite, TNT, ANFO, silver azide, &c. I wouldn't be surprised if dynamite exists in the Zeldaverse, since it is at least mentioned once when the witches in OoT use their "Double Dynamite Attack" and transform into Twinrova. That could just be informal usage, though. We don't know because dynamite is never used.

Very true.

TNT is also insensitive. Then again, so is black powder, unless we define its sensitivity based not only on shock, but also on an introduction to heat. In that case, then no, it's not insensitive. We can see that the bombs can be hit and will explode, however. I'm not sure why this would be the case. Arrows work on bombs as well, so I wonder if that has anything to do with the myth that if you fired a bullet at a gasoline tank that it would explode. (It wouldn't, which is why it's a myth.) So I'm not sure.

Hmm, that is odd. If I had to guess, I'd say that perhaps there's some friction being created and the heat is lighting the black powder. I dunno though.

I'm sorry to see that you're fine with working with gunpowder only because you think the results don't matter, rather than because the reasoning favors the results. You do realize that's indicative of being biased, right? It tells me you only care about Link winning.

If it's gunpowder, then Link survives. If it's ANFO, Link survives. The end result is the same, so I feel that it's not worth arguing over.

I didn't have to be so kind to provide evidence or even the yield of one bomb, but I did because it's whatever the truth favors, not what I feel it should favor. So, I'm going to reiterate what Protocol 02 said about the bombs. When all eight bombs explode, Link doesn't receive more damage, he just receives the same damage if he was injured by one bomb. This means the same would apply for the magic armor.

They're both measured as 1/4 of a heart, so Link can survive them both X amount of times. To me it seems like one bomb is a rather small amount, and 1/32 of a heart would be a bit hard to see, so the developers rounded it up to 1/4.

I don't know how you got from 1.3 tons of TNT to 1.84 tons of TNT.

1.3 is eight bombs, and is blocked by the Magic Armor. 3.14 is one Seeker Missile. 3.14 - the 1.3 blocked = 1.84.

I also don't see why I should accept your notion of heart containers.

They're used to measure how much of a beating Link can take. Regardless of whether or not we're actually using them in a fight, we can translate them into Link's toughness. In this case, Link's toughness allows him to survive that many Seeker Missiles.

Prove that Link's items stack.

Since there is no major proof either way (unless you have something you'd like to present), I say we put this up to a vote. Should item effects stack, or no? @ ShadowLBlue @ Nerdicon @ Kirby Dragons @everyone else

Also feel free to explain how the damage reduction works for Link. Are you saying that if a bullet hit Link's forehead, he wouldn't die?

I'd imagine it's some sort of magical barrier that protects Link from attacks (by reducing their effects). Seeing as how Link has been shown multiple times to have resilience far beyond that of a normal human, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he could take a bullet to the head at least with his upgrades.

Finally, let's play your little game of desperation. So one missile would equal 348.48 kg. of TNT, or 1,458,056,250 joules. One power bomb uses 58,322,250,000 joules, or 13.94 tons of TNT. It's also infinite if we're just using MOM alone, though I heard we're using composite forms now.

If my math is correct (granted, with me that's a rather large "if" ), Link should be able to withstand about 47 Power Bombs. How many can Samus carry at once?

Edit: I tested MM and TP because those are the only Zelda games I have. In MM, I let a real bombchu hit me and received only a quarter of damage. Using the bomb mask also resulted in a quarter of damage. I set three bombs (which is the limit) and received a quarter of damage. I also set three bombs and detonated all of them using the blast mask, which resulted in only a quarter of damage. In TP, I set one bomb and resulted in half damage. I set three and that also resulted in half damage.

What this means is the amount of damage received by Link with any number of bombs is coded so that it always results in that amount of damage. To receive more than a quarter damage or half damage, another bomb has to blow up at a different time, otherwise the game reads it as one bomb. This would apply to the magic armor. As I pointed out before, you could put as many bombs as you want and still not damage the magic armor. It's coded to be that way. You could place a billion bombs in WW and nothing would happen. Therefore, the thought that multiple bombs blew up at once on Link is meaningless.

As I said earlier, a likely explanation is that it was rounded up to 1/4 of a heart because 1/32 would be too small.

Um, now.

I'd like a source from canon, not fanon.

It's not really a longshot. Creating Meta Knight is the only thing that could happen when Kirby uses the Helper ability with Master/Galaxia. There's no doubt there.

Or, you know, he could make a generic swordsman holding a Galaxia.

I don't think anyone's shot it with arrows. But, Mega Mewtwo's speed stat is supreme, meaning he can at least dodge everything that comes for him.

The Speed stat in Pokemon represents the speed of attacks (higher Speed stat attacks first), and it hasn't been shown to universally have an impact on reaction time. If Mewtwo could dodge that speed of attack, he would. He doesn't, so we don't have a reason to believe that he could.

Link is defeated before that happens.

Except he isn't.

Mewtwo takes it.

How? Trick can only take held items, and Link never actually holds the Magic Armor. It just activated. Presumably it's in his bag/pocket/etc., and Trick cannot take items from a trainer's bag.

Link is defeated before that happens.

See above.

Mega Mewtwo's (and regular Mewtwo, maybe) speed stat.

See above.

Mewtwo is fast too.

See above.

And after Mewtwo dodges the slashes, he could use Mimic to use them on Link.

Can Mimic replicate weapon/item based attacks?

Which he can't do after Mewtwo defeats him.

Which Mewtwo cannot do after Link defeats it.

Mind controlling doesn't do any of these things, so it isn't an attack.

"Damage: physical harm caused to something in such a way as to impair its value, usefulness, or normal function." I'd say controlling one's mind impairs normal function.

Mewtwo takes the Magic Armor using Trick then. Magic Armor only protects Link, it doesn't protect itself. Mewtwo doesn't have a Magic Meter, so he can use the armor indefinitely.

See above. If Mewtwo does not possess a Magic Meter, then he does not possess Magic, and thus he cannot use the Magic Meter. It's like putting a gasoline engine in a vehicle without a gas tank. If there is no tank to contain the gasoline for the engine to run on, then the engine cannot run.

Yet, Pokemon attacks always hit opponents in the front, where Light Screen/Barrier are.

Barrier and Light Screen only reduce damage taken rather than negating it entirely, seeming to hint that either A) them covering only the front makes them more susceptible to damage or B) they are just plain less durable than Protect. Magic Armor A) covers more than just the front and B) can survive a lot of force. I still don't see how Magic Armor is more similar to Barrier or Light Screen than Protect.

Mewtwo could flick the mitts away as well, they aren't attached to Link's hands.

They are attached to his hands; he is wearing them.

Mewtwo flicks the cape while Link is putting it on.

Similarly to the Magic Armor, the Magic Cape is also never held by Link, as shown here.

Mitts get flung away.

See above. Even if they did get flung away, Link has incredible grip on his items on his own. The Hookshot comes to mind.

Hylian Shield only protects Link in one area, so Aura Sphere would go around it.

Has Aura Sphere been shown to maneuver around shields?

And Protect negates it, and dodging dodges it.

And Protect has limited uses, and Mewtwo hasn't been shown to have that sort of dodging speed.

Mewtwo can fling the mitts away.

See above.

Dodging has infinite uses.

>

Most of Link's projectiles are solid, meaning Counter would work on them (though Mewtwo can't use it anyways).

Yes, because punching an arrow will do so much for Mewtwo.

Magic Armor gets taken, Magic Cape gets flung.

One does not simply fling that which is not there to be flung.

Link can't use Magic Cape because it is gone. Mewtwo dodges the swipes. Intangibility doesn't mean psychic sense doesn't work. Mewtwo also has Future Sight to see where Link attacks, then Mewtwo makes sure he isn't there.

Link can use Magic Cape because he still has it. Mewtwo hasn't been shown to be quick enough to dodge the swipes. How would Mewtwo sense an opponent that is invisible and non-solid? Future Sight does not actually foresee the future; it attacks two turns after the move is used.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Since there is no major proof either way (unless you have something you'd like to present), I say we put this up to a vote. Should item effects stack, or no? @ ShadowLBlue @ Nerdicon @ Kirby Dragons @everyone else

I'd say it just depends on what the items do in their games. Like for example, Link can only have five rings at a time.

I'd like a source from canon, not fanon.

And a source from canon is that Kirby can use the Helper on any Copy Ability that doesn't have limited usage. Galaxia and Master are both Copy Abilities. Meta Knight is the only one that uses either sword (besides Kirby), so using the Helper function would create Meta Knight.

Or, you know, he could make a generic swordsman holding a Galaxia.

And what enemy/midboss/boss would that generic swordsman be? Helper function doesn't create new enemies, it only uses existing ones. Meta Knight is already existing, and the only source of Galaxia or Master, so yeah.

The Speed stat in Pokemon represents the speed of attacks (higher Speed stat attacks first), and it hasn't been shown to universally have an impact on reaction time. If Mewtwo could dodge that speed of attack, he would. He doesn't, so we don't have a reason to believe that he could.

Evasion.

Except he isn't.

And he is.

How? Trick can only take held items, and Link never actually holds the Magic Armor. It just activated. Presumably it's in his bag/pocket/etc., and Trick cannot take items from a trainer's bag.

Like Shadow said, Pokemon don't actually hold items. It's just in their body. Magic Armor is on Link's body.

Can Mimic replicate weapon/item based attacks?

Rocks from Rock Smash, horns from Horn Drill, etc.

Which Mewtwo cannot do after Link defeats it.

Link doesn't defeat Mewtwo.

"Damage: physical harm caused to something in such a way as to impair its value, usefulness, or normal function." I'd say controlling one's mind impairs normal function.

Mind controlling doesn't impair the normal function, it changes the function. After mind controlling is stopped, Link still has his value, usefulness, and normal function.

See above. If Mewtwo does not possess a Magic Meter, then he does not possess Magic, and thus he cannot use the Magic Meter. It's like putting a gasoline engine in a vehicle without a gas tank. If there is no tank to contain the gasoline for the engine to run on, then the engine cannot run.

The magic is in the Magic Armor, which Mewtwo now has.

Barrier and Light Screen only reduce damage taken rather than negating it entirely, seeming to hint that either A) them covering only the front makes them more susceptible to damage or B) they are just plain less durable than Protect. Magic Armor A) covers more than just the front and B) can survive a lot of force. I still don't see how Magic Armor is more similar to Barrier or Light Screen than Protect.

Protect is spherical, while Barrier/Light Screen/Magic Armor conform to the body. Barrier/Light Screen/Magic Armor are straight barriers, while Protect is something that is a barrier.

They are attached to his hands; he is wearing them.

I'm wearing my shirt, yet I can take it off whenever I want to.

Similarly to the Magic Armor, the Magic Cape is also never held by Link, as shown here.

And items aren't actually held by Pokemon.

See above. Even if they did get flung away, Link has incredible grip on his items on his own. The Hookshot comes to mind.

Mewtwo could crush Link's hand, decreasing his grip.

Has Aura Sphere been shown to maneuver around shields?

It's not going to miss if it doesn't have to.

And Protect has limited uses, and Mewtwo hasn't been shown to have that sort of dodging speed.

High evasion.

>

Um, I don't get it.

Yes, because punching an arrow will do so much for Mewtwo.

When did I say anything about punching?

One does not simply fling that which is not there to be flung.

And he flings what there is there to be flung.

Link can use Magic Cape because he still has it. Mewtwo hasn't been shown to be quick enough to dodge the swipes. How would Mewtwo sense an opponent that is invisible and non-solid? Future Sight does not actually foresee the future; it attacks two turns after the move is used.

Future Sight does such by foreseeing the future.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes. It was proven otherwise (with your medieval era argument), and now it's not (since I disproved your proof), so it is once again a possibility.

Still, possibility doesn't mean anything. There's a possibility God exists. There's a possibility God does not exist. Who cares?

Hmm, that is odd. If I had to guess, I'd say that perhaps there's some friction being created and the heat is lighting the black powder. I dunno though.

Insensitivity would allow an explosive to not blow up from too much shock, heat, or friction. If the bombs are made in an iron casing, then that should really make it difficult to blow up. It's probably a mechanic. Think of it this way. If you throw a bomb off a cliff in the Zelda games, will it explode? In OoT, throwing a bomb flower off a part of Death Mountain to open the way to the Dodogo Cavern says it won't. It has to blow up on its own. The amount of energy produced from falling is likely more than what Link is swinging, unless he hits with the tip, which would produce more pressure. So it could just be a common mechanic, possibly based around the myth that things will blow up if you strike them.

They're both measured as 1/4 of a heart, so Link can survive them both X amount of times. To me it seems like one bomb is a rather small amount, and 1/32 of a heart would be a bit hard to see, so the developers rounded it up to 1/4.

If Link only receives a quarter damage from one bomb, then that means without the enhanced defense provided by the great fairy, Link would receive half damage. One bomb would produce half damage (0.5). Two bombs would have to produce one-hundred percent damage (1.00), meaning Link would lose one heart. With three bombs including the blast mask, Link should lose one heart, but we know this doesn't happen.

The way you're understanding 1/4 and 1/32 is honestly making me think you don't understand fractions. This isn't to insult your intelligence. This is just the impression I am getting. Again, I'm not making fun of you or insulting you. It's not an issue and you should not be made fun of for it. If you do understand fractions, that's fine, too. I just get the impression that you're confusing 1/4 (0.25) with 1/40 (0.025). Fractions can be confusing.

It's clear the games register multiple bombs as one bomb, so Link doesn't receive the amount of damage we might think he would. The point that's being made is that since this is the case, then the idea that Link can withstand multiple bombs with the magic armor is a faulty argument based on the premise that multiple bombs is equivalent to greater damage, which is clearly not the case.

1.3 is eight bombs, and is blocked by the Magic Armor. 3.14 is one Seeker Missile. 3.14 - the 1.3 blocked = 1.84.

This argument is faulty as it rests on the idea that multiple bombs produces greater damage. Sure, in reality that would be the case, but it's not the case here, since the game reads it as only one bomb, rather than one bomb blowing up on Link at separate times. This doesn't mean I accept game mechanics, but since the argument for the amount of damage the magic armor can withstand is based on a game mechanic, it must be dismissed.

They're used to measure how much of a beating Link can take. Regardless of whether or not we're actually using them in a fight, we can translate them into Link's toughness. In this case, Link's toughness allows him to survive that many Seeker Missiles.

No we cannot. At this time, it would make more sense to use cut-scenes to determine Link's durability.

Since there is no major proof either way (unless you have something you'd like to present), I say we put this up to a vote. Should item effects stack, or no? @ ShadowLBlue @ Nerdicon @ Kirby Dragons @everyone else

When Link acquires the red mail in ALttP, it's not as if the blue armor is adding more defense. This would be equal to 75% damage reduction, not 25% damage reduction. Red mail only reduces damage by 25%. I'm fine with Link wearing ten rings on his fingers, since he has ten fingers. (I'd say it's a game mechanic for Link to be able to wear only one ring.) Silver gauntlets are replaced with golden gauntlets. Link's obviously not wearing gauntlets over gauntlets. The silver scale is replaced with the golden scale. So far, I'm not aware of anything in the Zeldaverse that stacks.

I'd imagine it's some sort of magical barrier that protects Link from attacks (by reducing their effects). Seeing as how Link has been shown multiple times to have resilience far beyond that of a normal human, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he could take a bullet to the head at least with his upgrades.

In TP, Link was knocked unconscious by a club to the back of his head. Tetra has to prevent him from running off a cliff as he tries to save his sister, Aryll.

If my math is correct (granted, with me that's a rather large "if" ), Link should be able to withstand about 47 Power Bombs. How many can Samus carry at once?

In Metroid Fusion, she collects a total of 64. Again, in Metroid: Other M, she just charges a normal bomb and releases, making it infinite (or a vast amount), though it has a cool down. If I recall correctly, collecting accel charges reduces the cool down time.

 

[Range]

It seems for the most part, non-physical attacks are considered special attacks, whereas non-physical defense is known as special defense. If magic armor is supposed to be anything like a special defense, considering there's honestly no difference between magic and psychic, then magic armor may be equivalent to special defense. Psychic is a special attack, so the magic armor might be useful against it if it's treated as special defense. If it's considered "normal" because of its lack of association with anything elemental, then it won't protect Link.

Mewtwo has Psystrike, which could circumvent the special defense issue.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Talked about this with Muno.

Mewtwo's fast enough to dodge arrows, so I'll give you that.

Mewtwo can't actually use Counter, but he can use Mimic (and dodge Link's physical attacks).

Actually he can use Counter.

Mewtwo could flick the mitts away as well, they aren't attached to Link's hands.

Even if we went with the longshot he can flick off of Link's gloves, Link's fist would be closed 99% of time as he is always holding something in his hand. He'd be unable to remove them.

Mewtwo flicks the cape while Link is putting it on.

You presume Mewtwo will see Link putting on the cape and instantly react. Link's cape is put on in an instant, and in the slim event Mewtwo could react in time he'd be unable to remove it from the grip of Link's Titan Mitts.

Mitts get flung away.

Disproved this and all other "flicked away" earlier.

Hylian Shield only protects Link in one area, so Aura Sphere would go around it.

Aura sphere goes in a straight path, how would it go around?

Dodging has infinite uses.

Mewtwo isn't dodging everything. Plus it's hard to dodge AoE attacks.

Most of Link's projectiles are solid, meaning Counter would work on them (though Mewtwo can't use it anyways).

As I said earlier, he still takes full damage from being hit with Counter, and Link's invincibility would negate the returned damage.

Magic Armor gets taken, Magic Cape gets flung.

If you're referring to Trick, it only works on items, not equipment.

Link can't use Magic Cape because it is gone. Mewtwo dodges the swipes. Intangibility doesn't mean psychic sense doesn't work. Mewtwo also has Future Sight to see where Link attacks, then Mewtwo makes sure he isn't there.

Magic Cape is not gone, Mewtwo's not dodging everything, and yes it would because there is nothing for it to sense. Future Sight wouldn't work because Link was intangible with Magic Cape.

@ Munomario777
I think it depends. I don't think gloves should be able to stack, because that means he's wearing two gloves at once, but in general if their is not problem like that, stacking is fine. Although I don't see how you're for this and against having the effects of all Boomerangs on one Boomerang.

Anyway, now that a majority has voted on all the rules and game mechanics, I'm reposting them since it's been a few pages:

1. Teleport in Kid Icarus, Pokemon and Zelda can be used freely, although Kid Icarus and Pokemon have limited uses and Link's involves him setting a warp point the first time he uses it and then the second time he uses it he can either warp there or make where he is using Farore's win a new warp point
2. Bowser's Star Rod grants any wish, but he can't wish opponents from existence because it goes against his mentality.
3. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well
4. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs outs, and from there can use one Super Missile in place of 5 missiles.
5. Pokemon only can hold one item.
6. Zelda and Shiek do NOT get their moves from Hyrule Warriors
7. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes; C) have 3 out at once. Should get all of listed effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
   
8. Characters have health systems and are given the one that is used most often in their primary games. Excludes characters who have HP bars for health systems.
   
9. Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)
   
10. A turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, @Dryn , @ Nerdicon , @ Munomario777 , @BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , can we pause these ongoing debates so we can vote on a tier list? We can just resume these discussions in the new thread. Even if you don't want to make a tier list, you still might have a suggestion/question/complaint. If you're going to make a tier list, please be sure to put numbers besides the characters. Also, if you only want to make tier list of only the top 20 or so that's fine, since tbh that's what the majority of this thread has gone towards.

I'll repost my tier list

S tier
1
-I think with Star Rod, he should be able to take down Sonic since the Star Rod grants all wishes and only takes a few seconds to activate. He's quite durable, so I think he could get the wish off before even Sonic has time to turn Super and kill him. He asks for invincibility (intangibility against Sonic), then from there has a variety of options.
2
Can turn into Super Sonic, which makes him able to move at light speed if need be. Also is nearly invincible, vulnerable only to mental attacks, and the strongest of attacks (in theory). But with 999,999 rings (thanks to Chao Garden according to Munomario) he'll last too long for the few people who could beat regular Sonic.

A tier
3 Unlimited ammo on many of her weapons, can can turn into a invincible, supersonic moving when she needs to go on defense (takes 1 second of running to activate.)
4 Composite Link, with access to equipment and items from all of his games. Chateau Romani gives 3 days of unlimited magic, which means he can use Magic Cape (makes him intangible and invulnerable) defensively while spamming his ice/fire rods and medallions. Also has 250k rupees to power his magic suit in the rare event his 3 days of magic depletes or if he wants to be more offensive (he can't use other magic items while using magic cape)
5Lacks as much offense, as composite Link, and chataeu romani, but still has magic armor plus 250k rupees, which should let him outstall even Kirby.
6 multiple guards that grant near or total invincibility, the warp star moves at high speeds, hypernova swallows almost anything (albeit is a one time use skill), and has a variety of projectiles.
7Access to all the powers (albeit with limited uses) from Uprising, the various light powers her staff provides, flight and the Palutena's Bow.
8
9
10 Can summon Lumas that turn into stars or black holes. Also has a near-impenetrable shield. Has access to one of every power-up from Super Mario 3D world.
11 Can't be killed by non-holy attacks, although he can be sealed/trapped in other dimension. As far as I know Kirby lacks holy attacks, but Palutena (being a god) and Rosalina (trap him in a black hole) have the edge over Ganondorf but not Kirby, thus Ganon being placed below someone he can beat. Ganondorf can turn invisible and intangible temporarily, fire magical balls, and wield 2 swords at once. As Ganon he can do the above except also wield a trident which shoots out lightning. Only thing Ganon can't do that Ganondorf can is float.
12
13
-Give Mewtwo the edge over Ness because although Ness can fully recover all HP for a tiny fraction of his total PP, and has a shield which halves damage while reflecting some, I believe Mewtwo can out last him by peppering him with his variety of specials. Mewtwo can put up a light screen (raises defense by 100%) and than copy either Ness's shield or healing move and out last him.

Tier B:
14
15 Can switch classes during battle to fit best situation. Best offense in general though is as a sorceror, where Aversa's Night guarantees she recovers health = 50% of damaged deal with each attack; the skill sol guarantees she gets 100% every other attack. Vantage (when she's under 50% health) acts like visions. Armsthrift makes her not need to worry about durability. Can change into a flier for evasion while attacking from up high with attacks. Changing into a general makes him a stone wall.

16
17
18
19
- w/vehicles. Barrel Roll can block even lasers. Below 64. Mario Bros because between their various invincibility granting items plus using Barry to reflect lasers, I think they could probably win. Unsure though.
Tier C
20 Double team makes illusions that can boost his evasion by 300%, and going off the anime, these illusions can appear to attack. Then Charizard attacks with an AOE attack to catch MK from flying around too much. Flight gives it edge over other Pokemon.
21
22
23
-various projectiles, protect and dodging techniques put them over the FE characters.
24 Rose since my last list. Her parasol blocks almost any attack, she has access to Pixls that make untouchable and can reflect any attack, plus a bomb and hammer pixl, not to mention her power-ups fro 3D world, has healing skills (Therapy only costs 2 of her 99 FP), and Psych Bomb (15 fp) which is an AoE attack that can't be resisted. Has a variety of items to restore FP should see run out. She can use Carry to move and guard with her parasol.
25skills: Counter, Limit Breaker, Aether, Armsthrift, Cancel
-Despite all the discussion about Nihil, I'm dropping it for Limit Breaker, for 2 reasons: 1) We can't agree if Nihil works on only skills, skills and advanced attacks, and if it should only apply to automatic advanced attacks/skills or manual ones to. 2) Cancel negates counterattacks (requires Ike to attack first) when activated, and with Limit Breaker would activate every other attack.
-Rose since my last list because of Cancel+Limit Breaker, remembering Ragnell can attack at range, and Counter.
26 immune to all non-projectiles attacks except from manaketes (dragons)
27 I feel as MK's size and quick flying speed makes him hard to keep track of and gives him the ability to just fly around these 2 FE characters It'd be like trying to bat a giant fly with an 8 inch sword.
28 Rose since my last list because I read about his disguises. Quick list of the relevant ones plus other transformations:

• Sparky Wario - Wario can create electricity and light up dark places. Can shoot electric after certain events. This is activated by clicking the screen and Wario cannot move while sending out electricity.
• Space Wario- Wario is equipped with a space suit and a laser gun, by touching the screen Wario fires in that direction.
  
• Wicked Wario- Can Fly.
• Jet Wario- can also fly, difference is it goes quicker horizontally but can't rise any higher than Wario can jump.
• Dragon Wario- Can shoot fire
• King Dragon Wario- Can fly and shoot fire that goes till end of the screen.

-Despite all this, is below the FE characters because none of his projectiles go fast except for his gun, and all of his power-ups disappear after a hit if I'm not mistaken.
29 That his clown car can fly and turn into a race car, plus has an indefinite amount of bombs, and he can breathe fire gives him edge over apes and most below him. Also has a snarl that paralyzes people who get to close.
30
31 Yes his car is fast and but as far as I'm aware all it can do is ram into people, and he can't go too fast since the arena is only 10miles by 10 miles and he wouldn't want to crash into a wall...
32
33
Tier D
34 & 35 Can use light arrows and the goddess items because she is good with magic. Sheik has all those plus is agile and has that vanishing bomb.
36 Can shoot pellets. Also has one time use items that last for 15 seconds that let him: turn into metal, run around the enemy and create a ring that closes in and attacks, ground pound that also releases shock waves, shoot electricity
37 supreme agility, paralyzing gun, strong
38 Can eat people and turn them into eggs, and can throw eggs but has a very limited supply.
39
Tier F:
40 Can make his body into anything seen in G&W, including a giant octopus
41 2 people with super jumping abilities wielding big hammers.
42 Mario without the power-ups, badges or equipment, but can throw pills.
43
44
45
46
47
48 Outside of cameo appearances, only game is Mario Kart DS where his only move is spinning his arms like his side B.

I can't figure out who, but I'm missing a character or two...

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Wait, what do you mean "extending" to the 1800s? Remember, we're looking at a world that has access to robots, electric lighting, instant cameras, and even the Game Boy Advance! In terms of technology, the Zelda world is practically caught up with ours.

• While there may be castles and such, the technology (which is what we're discussing here, no?) is far more advanced.
• And ANFO is a common mining explosive in these days (which Zelda has practically caught up to due to the GBA).

Just because a setting has a GBA expy and Ironclad warships doesn’t mean they have advanced explosives. The Zelda setting has taken a different course in it’s technological progression compared to the real world.

Examples: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchizoTech.

's Attack: Master Sword
This is a powerful blade with the ability to repel evil.
's Counter: Confusion/Psychic
Both these moves grant Mewtwo telekinesis, which could be used to fling away the sword. In addition, the first move would confuse Link, making him attack with things that aren't the sword.

In regards to confusion, can the Magic Armor block status ailments like the Jinx and Curse from Bubbles? If so that would be a major boon for Link.

That's fine it shows up on the character window, but it's still not a buff. Armor and Speed temporarily boost stats, Shield, assuming it's strong enough, blocks any one Talent art.

Not all buffs boost stats. Examples include Monado Enchant, Debuff Immunity(Sharla’s Cure Bullet/Round), Damage Shield(Sharla’s Shield Bullet), Damage Heal(Sharla’s Heal Counter) and Regenerate(those accursed Quadwings).Would Shield even be useful against Ike considering Aether is heavily telegraphed and the fact that it can miss.

Only as a general guideline in the event they are especially weak or strong against physical/special attacks.

That was what I was thinking.

Well that means all of his attacks hit hard.

25% harder plus the passive healing of the Critical Drain skill.

Yep. Applies for any match-ups, not just pokemon. Since Robin (granted by DLC) can get book of Naga, it means he can actually kill Ganondorf since that's a light spell.

It’s actually better than that! If it is the same tome from FE4(Genealogy of the Holy War) then it already has beaten near-invulnerability from dark magicks. Source: fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Naga

• Drawing first blood can be a big deal, but the way I imagine it translating to a non-turn based scenario is something like Spidey sense or Shulk's visions, granted without actually knowing what attack is coming and only working at 50% or less health. You can proposed another skill if you think one works better.
• k.
• Yea, but that's why I said most
• k
• k

Ok.

What do you mean?

Those Mario games use the standard RPG HP-based health system.

I don't think anyone's shot it with arrows. But, Mega Mewtwo's speed stat is supreme, meaning he can at least dodge everything that comes for him.

Mewtwo is hardly supreme with speed as Deoxys has a significant edge over him(140 vs 180). Speed isn’t used for determining Evasion.

I know I might regret this but may I weight-in on earlier matchups?

Edit:

Range

Psystrike won’t do much good because it will hit the regular defense stat instead.

ShadowLBlue

You forgot Mr. I’m really feeling it!

 

[Munomario777]

Still, possibility doesn't mean anything. There's a possibility God exists. There's a possibility God does not exist. Who cares?

Possibility doesn't mean anything, you're right. It does open the door for evidence to prove the possibilities, though.

Insensitivity would allow an explosive to not blow up from too much shock, heat, or friction. If the bombs are made in an iron casing, then that should really make it difficult to blow up. It's probably a mechanic. Think of it this way. If you throw a bomb off a cliff in the Zelda games, will it explode? In OoT, throwing a bomb flower off a part of Death Mountain to open the way to the Dodogo Cavern says it won't. It has to blow up on its own. The amount of energy produced from falling is likely more than what Link is swinging, unless he hits with the tip, which would produce more pressure. So it could just be a common mechanic, possibly based around the myth that things will blow up if you strike them.

Yeah, this does seem to be a case where game physics differ from ours.

If Link only receives a quarter damage from one bomb, then that means without the enhanced defense provided by the great fairy, Link would receive half damage. One bomb would produce half damage (0.5). Two bombs would have to produce one-hundred percent damage (1.00), meaning Link would lose one heart. With three bombs including the blast mask, Link should lose one heart, but we know this doesn't happen.

You mean the enhanced defense I referred to in one of my posts? That's not present in Wind Waker IIRC, and that's the game I got the numbers from. Thus, the enhanced defense would only reduce this number. Gameplay > real-world logic. In gameplay, Link takes only 1/4 of a heart from eight bombs.

The way you're understanding 1/4 and 1/32 is honestly making me think you don't understand fractions. This isn't to insult your intelligence. This is just the impression I am getting. Again, I'm not making fun of you or insulting you. It's not an issue and you should not be made fun of for it. If you do understand fractions, that's fine, too. I just get the impression that you're confusing 1/4 (0.25) with 1/40 (0.025). Fractions can be confusing.

Allow me to elaborate. 1/4 is the amount of a heart that is taken away by eight bombs. If the designers were to portray one bomb accurately in relation to the amount dealt by eight, it would be 1/32. 1/32 would be one bomb, and 8/32 (which is equal to 1/4) would be eight. Since 1/32 of a heart is a bit too precise for a health system, then they made it the minimum amount that the health system allows, which is 1/4 of a heart.

It's clear the games register multiple bombs as one bomb, so Link doesn't receive the amount of damage we might think he would. The point that's being made is that since this is the case, then the idea that Link can withstand multiple bombs with the magic armor is a faulty argument based on the premise that multiple bombs is equivalent to greater damage, which is clearly not the case.

In the game, Link takes 1/4 of a heart from eight bombs. In the game, Link can survive the equivalent of 1.3 tons of TNT eighty times before dying. This would be a relatively easy fix for the developers if they wanted the bombs to add up, but they didn't.

This argument is faulty as it rests on the idea that multiple bombs produces greater damage. Sure, in reality that would be the case, but it's not the case here, since the game reads it as only one bomb, rather than one bomb blowing up on Link at separate times. This doesn't mean I accept game mechanics, but since the argument for the amount of damage the magic armor can withstand is based on a game mechanic, it must be dismissed.

Do you have technical data to back up this claim?

No we cannot. At this time, it would make more sense to use cut-scenes to determine Link's durability.

Why is that?

When Link acquires the red mail in ALttP, it's not as if the blue armor is adding more defense. This would be equal to 75% damage reduction, not 25% damage reduction. Red mail only reduces damage by 25%. I'm fine with Link wearing ten rings on his fingers, since he has ten fingers. (I'd say it's a game mechanic for Link to be able to wear only one ring.) Silver gauntlets are replaced with golden gauntlets. Link's obviously not wearing gauntlets over gauntlets. The silver scale is replaced with the golden scale. So far, I'm not aware of anything in the Zeldaverse that stacks.

Link could only wear one tunic at once (with two, it could make him uncomfortable, hot, and possible impede his movement). The same goes for gauntlets (although likely to a higher degree, seeing as how they're so bulky and heavy-duty). As for the scales, it seems like they actually might stack. On his own, without upgrades, Link can dive for three seconds, or three meters. The silver scale adds three to those numbers, allowing Link to dive for six seconds, or six meters. The golden scale adds another three onto that limit, making it nine seconds and meters. It might seem like the golden scale would be better than the silver one, but the game doesn't state that, or even imply it. The in-game description for the golden scale reads, "Now you can dive much deeper than you could before!" Just because it's golden doesn't mean it's more powerful; just look at the Gold Mario amiibo.

In TP, Link was knocked unconscious by a club to the back of his head. Tetra has to prevent him from running off a cliff as he tries to save his sister, Aryll.

The Twilight Princess scene is one instance, and is overridden by Link toughing it through tons of attacks in not only the other games in the series, but Twilight Princess itself. I'm not sure what your point is with the Wind Waker example. I assume you mean Tetra had to save Link because he would fall and die, but Link can jump from up there just after and be fine. As for why she stopped him, that's a rather natural reaction to someone jumping off of a cliff.

In Metroid Fusion, she collects a total of 64. Again, in Metroid: Other M, she just charges a normal bomb and releases, making it infinite (or a vast amount), though it has a cool down. If I recall correctly, collecting accel charges reduces the cool down time.

Hmm, I see. How long does it take a Power Bomb to explode, from the time it's deployed? Because if it's long enough, Link would have time to equip the Magic Cape (which makes him completely intangible and thus resistant to the blast).

@ Munomario777
I think it depends. I don't think gloves should be able to stack, because that means he's wearing two gloves at once, but in general if their is not problem like that, stacking is fine. Although I don't see how you're for this and against having the effects of all Boomerangs on one Boomerang.

Yeah, that's also how I feel about it. The reason I feel that way about the Boomerang and such is because those are separate items with different properties. Power Gloves and such apply boosts to Link, but the Boomerang has boosts itself. It's like having three cars, same make and model, but with slightly different properties under the hood. One has better brakes, one has a better engine, and one has more fuel capacity. Without gutting the cars, you can't combine them into one "supercar". Seeing as how magical properties don't seem to have a way to be removed and slapped on another item, they shouldn't stack here.

Anyway, now that a majority has voted on all the rules and game mechanics, I'm reposting them since it's been a few pages:

1. Teleport in Kid Icarus, Pokemon and Zelda can be used freely, although Kid Icarus and Pokemon have limited uses and Link's involves him setting a warp point the first time he uses it and then the second time he uses it he can either warp there or make where he is using Farore's win a new warp point
2. Bowser's Star Rod grants any wish, but he can't wish opponents from existence because it goes against his mentality.
3. Chaos Control (the time freeze version) should last 10 seconds per use, going off how long it lasted in Sonic Heroes. It could last up till 70 since he has all 7. I feel like they're should probably be a cool down as well
4. Samus should have missiles and Super Missiles, and her beam combos should draw their ammo from Missiles until she runs outs, and from there can use one Super Missile in place of 5 missiles.
5. Pokemon only can hold one item.
6. Zelda and Shiek do NOT get their moves from Hyrule Warriors
7. Characters who have attacks/moves/abilities that appear in multiple games but varying characteristics should have all of their best effects accumulated. EX: Depending on the game Magic Boomerang can either do one or some of the following: A) hit 5 targets at once B) be controlled as long as link likes; C) have 3 out at once. Should get all of listed effects, but not those of the Gale Boomerang.
   
8. Characters have health systems and are given the one that is used most often in their primary games. Excludes characters who have HP bars for health systems.
   
9. Attacks from enemies go at the speed shown unless the're is reason to believe otherwise (when using an enemies attack speed as reference point)
   
10. A turn should equal one minute of real time, for purposes of moves that grants buffs or debuffs

1. Agreed.
2. I'd like to point out that the Star Rod violates a rule that I proposed a while back, but was never recognized by anyone. The rule was basically characters can use any items and such of their own, but not ones that they just happened to use in one game. Examples include the sacred swords from Sonic and the Black Knight (the knights lent them to Sonic so he could become Excalibur Sonic), the Triforce from the Zelda games (Ganondorf steals it in the non-game-lore, Link/Zelda make a wish on it at the end of some games, etc.), and of course, the Star Rod from Paper Mario (Bowser steals it from Star Haven, does some bad things, and it gets returned at the end of the game). What do you all think of this proposal?
3. Agreed.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. Disagreed, for reasons previously mentioned.
8. Agreed, unless the HP bars are due to a specific attribute (i.e. Samus's armor durability VS Pokemon HP).
9. Agreed.
10. I'd say it depends on the game, honestly. If an average turn in Pokemon takes 15 seconds, we should count it as such. Granted, the time period varies depending on user input, but I think we can find a reasonable number for each game.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, @Dryn , @ Nerdicon , @ Munomario777 , @BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , can we pause these ongoing debates so we can vote on a tier list? We can just resume these discussions in the new thread. Even if you don't want to make a tier list, you still might have a suggestion/question/complaint. If you're going to make a tier list, please be sure to put numbers besides the characters. Also, if you only want to make tier list of only the top 20 or so that's fine, since tbh that's what the majority of this thread has gone towards.

Okay, that sounds good.

I'll repost my tier list

S tier
1
-I think with Star Rod, he should be able to take down Sonic since the Star Rod grants all wishes and only takes a few seconds to activate. He's quite durable, so I think he could get the wish off before even Sonic has time to turn Super and kill him. He asks for invincibility (intangibility against Sonic), then from there has a variety of options.
2
Can turn into Super Sonic, which makes him able to move at light speed if need be. Also is nearly invincible, vulnerable only to mental attacks, and the strongest of attacks (in theory). But with 999,999 rings (thanks to Chao Garden according to Munomario) he'll last too long for the few people who could beat regular Sonic.

A tier
3 Unlimited ammo on many of her weapons, can can turn into a invincible, supersonic moving when she needs to go on defense (takes 1 second of running to activate.)
4 Composite Link, with access to equipment and items from all of his games. Chateau Romani gives 3 days of unlimited magic, which means he can use Magic Cape (makes him intangible and invulnerable) defensively while spamming his ice/fire rods and medallions. Also has 250k rupees to power his magic suit in the rare event his 3 days of magic depletes or if he wants to be more offensive (he can't use other magic items while using magic cape)
5Lacks as much offense, as composite Link, and chataeu romani, but still has magic armor plus 250k rupees, which should let him outstall even Kirby.
6 multiple guards that grant near or total invincibility, the warp star moves at high speeds, hypernova swallows almost anything (albeit is a one time use skill), and has a variety of projectiles.
7Access to all the powers (albeit with limited uses) from Uprising, the various light powers her staff provides, flight and the Palutena's Bow.
8
9
10 Can summon Lumas that turn into stars or black holes. Also has a near-impenetrable shield. Has access to one of every power-up from Super Mario 3D world.
11 Can't be killed by non-holy attacks, although he can be sealed/trapped in other dimension. As far as I know Kirby lacks holy attacks, but Palutena (being a god) and Rosalina (trap him in a black hole) have the edge over Ganondorf but not Kirby, thus Ganon being placed below someone he can beat. Ganondorf can turn invisible and intangible temporarily, fire magical balls, and wield 2 swords at once. As Ganon he can do the above except also wield a trident which shoots out lightning. Only thing Ganon can't do that Ganondorf can is float.
12
13
-Give Mewtwo the edge over Ness because although Ness can fully recover all HP for a tiny fraction of his total PP, and has a shield which halves damage while reflecting some, I believe Mewtwo can out last him by peppering him with his variety of specials. Mewtwo can put up a light screen (raises defense by 100%) and than copy either Ness's shield or healing move and out last him.

Tier B:
14
15 Can switch classes during battle to fit best situation. Best offense in general though is as a sorceror, where Aversa's Night guarantees she recovers health = 50% of damaged deal with each attack; the skill sol guarantees she gets 100% every other attack. Vantage (when she's under 50% health) acts like visions. Armsthrift makes her not need to worry about durability. Can change into a flier for evasion while attacking from up high with attacks. Changing into a general makes him a stone wall.

16
17
18
19
- w/vehicles. Barrel Roll can block even lasers. Below 64. Mario Bros because between their various invincibility granting items plus using Barry to reflect lasers, I think they could probably win. Unsure though.
Tier C
20 Double team makes illusions that can boost his evasion by 300%, and going off the anime, these illusions can appear to attack. Then Charizard attacks with an AOE attack to catch MK from flying around too much. Flight gives it edge over other Pokemon.
21
22
23
-various projectiles, protect and dodging techniques put them over the FE characters.
24 Rose since my last list. Her parasol blocks almost any attack, she has access to Pixls that make untouchable and can reflect any attack, plus a bomb and hammer pixl, not to mention her power-ups fro 3D world, has healing skills (Therapy only costs 2 of her 99 FP), and Psych Bomb (15 fp) which is an AoE attack that can't be resisted. Has a variety of items to restore FP should see run out. She can use Carry to move and guard with her parasol.
25skills: Counter, Limit Breaker, Aether, Armsthrift, Cancel
-Despite all the discussion about Nihil, I'm dropping it for Limit Breaker, for 2 reasons: 1) We can't agree if Nihil works on only skills, skills and advanced attacks, and if it should only apply to automatic advanced attacks/skills or manual ones to. 2) Cancel negates counterattacks (requires Ike to attack first) when activated, and with Limit Breaker would activate every other attack.
-Rose since my last list because of Cancel+Limit Breaker, remembering Ragnell can attack at range, and Counter.
26 immune to all non-projectiles attacks except from manaketes (dragons)
27 I feel as MK's size and quick flying speed makes him hard to keep track of and gives him the ability to just fly around these 2 FE characters It'd be like trying to bat a giant fly with an 8 inch sword.
28 Rose since my last list because I read about his disguises. Quick list of the relevant ones plus other transformations:

• Sparky Wario - Wario can create electricity and light up dark places. Can shoot electric after certain events. This is activated by clicking the screen and Wario cannot move while sending out electricity.
• Space Wario- Wario is equipped with a space suit and a laser gun, by touching the screen Wario fires in that direction.
  
• Wicked Wario- Can Fly.
• Jet Wario- can also fly, difference is it goes quicker horizontally but can't rise any higher than Wario can jump.
• Dragon Wario- Can shoot fire
• King Dragon Wario- Can fly and shoot fire that goes till end of the screen.

-Despite all this, is below the FE characters because none of his projectiles go fast except for his gun, and all of his power-ups disappear after a hit if I'm not mistaken.
29 That his clown car can fly and turn into a race car, plus has an indefinite amount of bombs, and he can breathe fire gives him edge over apes and most below him. Also has a snarl that paralyzes people who get to close.
30
31 Yes his car is fast and but as far as I'm aware all it can do is ram into people, and he can't go too fast since the arena is only 10miles by 10 miles and he wouldn't want to crash into a wall...
32
33
Tier D
34 & 35 Can use light arrows and the goddess items because she is good with magic. Sheik has all those plus is agile and has that vanishing bomb.
36 Can shoot pellets. Also has one time use items that last for 15 seconds that let him: turn into metal, run around the enemy and create a ring that closes in and attacks, ground pound that also releases shock waves, shoot electricity
37 supreme agility, paralyzing gun, strong
38 Can eat people and turn them into eggs, and can throw eggs but has a very limited supply.
39
Tier F:
40 Can make his body into anything seen in G&W, including a giant octopus
41 2 people with super jumping abilities wielding big hammers.
42 Mario without the power-ups, badges or equipment, but can throw pills.
43
44
45
46
47
48 Outside of cameo appearances, only game is Mario Kart DS where his only move is spinning his arms like his side B.

I can't figure out who, but I'm missing a character or two...

You're missing , , , , and . Anyway, I'll do my top ten.

1. - 11 day invincibility, blistering speed, teleportation, time freezing, etc. make him an extremely powerful character, and he could take on most of (if not all of) the other contenders.
   
2. - Black holes, stars, a practically endless army of Lumas, and other cosmic feats make her a force to be reckoned with, especially with items like the Starman.
   
3. - Being composite gives him access to the deadly Magic Armor and Chateau Romani combination, meaning that he can be practically invincible for up to three days straight. All of his speed, strength, durability, etc. upgrades make him formidable even without this though, in addition to his items.
   
4. - Super-durable armor, a variety of beam weapons, missiles, bombs, speed, agility, the works.
   
5. - While his invulnerability to non-holy attacks gives him the advantage over most characters, his comparative lack of powerful offensive techniques bumps him down a notch.
   
6. - Need I explain?
7. - With his variety of life-giving, ability-enhancing power-ups, he is a very formidable fighter.
   
8. - Powers make her rather, well, powerful, and the Mega Laser gives her a great option to use at the start of a match.
   
9. - Weapon variety makes him very adaptable to almost any situation.
   
10. - (Yay Smash 4 smilie! :D) Psychic powers make him the most powerful Pokemon.

Bowser isn't on the list because the Star Rod doesn't belong to him.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Does no one rank the Pokemon Trainer?

I'd like to point out that the Star Rod violates a rule that I proposed a while back, but was never recognized by anyone. The rule was basically characters can use any items and such of their own, but not ones that they just happened to use in one game. Examples include the sacred swords from Sonic and the Black Knight (the knights lent them to Sonic so he could become Excalibur Sonic), the Triforce from the Zelda games (Ganondorf steals it in the non-game-lore, Link/Zelda make a wish on it at the end of some games, etc.), and of course, the Star Rod from Paper Mario (Bowser steals it from Star Haven, does some bad things, and it gets returned at the end of the game). What do you all think of this proposal?

Yeah, no. What makes a one-game item different from a multiple-game item in terms of allowance?

Anyways, here is my tier list.

1. Six powerful Pokemon give him control over space, time, antimatter, dimensions, and effectively the universe.
2. The Monado lets him do anything he wants.
3. Most powerful Pokemon with ridiculous stats, has Trick to disarm his foes, variety of useful moves.
   
4. Ridiculous feats, can summon Meta Knight, variety of OHKOs, Mirror Kirby can reflect any projectile, Inhale can disarm weapons.
5. The Star Rod lets him do anything he wants.
6. Can gain invincibility for three days.
   
7. Durability is greatly increased as Super Sonic.
8. Invincible to anything non-holy.
9. The Powers allow her access to several different abilities, can summon Centurions.
10. Black holes as instant kills, forcefield can block tons of force.
11. Can use Luna to cut durability in half, can negate all damage with the Lightsphere, can break through defensive powers with Rapier.
12. Same as above.
13. Galactic attacks and Lifeup.
14. Teleportation, FTL speed, defeated the strongest warrior in the galaxy.
    
15. Has a couple instant kills, has Gunship for offense and defense, planetary beams.
16. Defeated Hades, tons of weapons.
17. Pit's equal, tons of weapons.
18. Defeated the planetary Queen Sectonia.
    
19. Can tear holes through space and time, can use other weapons.
20. Powerful items and abilities.
21. Expert healing skills.
22. Power from a goddess, can negate skills with Nihil.
23. Powerful items and abilities.
24. Can negate elemental attacks with Super Suit, can grow large, can gain invincibility.
25. See above.
26. Master swordsman with useful skills.
27. Pretty invincible, and is smarter than he looks.
28. Can heal himself or protect himself using the power of PSI.
29. Landmaster and Arwing.
30. See above.
31. Knocked down a small moon with a punch.
32. Same as Fox/Falco.
33. Can petrify opponents, can steal moves, poisoning, Magic Painbrush.
34. Aura reading is an effective fighting style, Double Team lets him dodge attacks, Aura Sphere never misses.
35. Knocked down a small moon with his head.
36. Same as Mario/Luigi, but with floating as an added bonus.
37. Speedy and quick, hides from damage with Substitute, Hydro Pump and Giga Impact for power, Shadow Sneak to bypass defense, blocks damage with Mat Block.
38. Took down giants robots, has grenades and bullets.
    
39. Fast and powerful.
40. Negates fire attacks, possesses speed.
41. Keeps opponents at distances with his projectiles.
42. Telepathy, telekinesis, Light Arrows.
43. Can knock down moons with his punches.
44. Drives a supersonic vehicle.
45. Gunship for offense and defense.
    
46. Has eggifying as an OHKO, also has the Mega Eggdozer.
    
47. Fly is useful, Fire Blast and Flare Blitz for power.
48. Can heal himself.
49. Has a counter and reflector, has his Final Smash if he ever needs it.
50. Pseudo-teleportation, speed, and athletic abilities.
51. Can sing his enemies to sleep, heal damage, and copy enemy attacks.
52. Paralyzation and Volt Tackle.
53. Hydro Pump and Withdraw.
54. Strong enough to lift a castle.
55. Physically fit.
56. Defeats enemies larger than he is, and has a spaceship, also blocks certain attacks with his Pikmin.
57. Strong enough to chop down a tree in a few swings, also random equipment.
58. Teamwork + hammers.
59. Random equipment.
60. He's a weakling.
    
61. See above.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Kirby Dragons

It's not about the number of games the item appeared in. It's about whether or not that item actually belongs to the character. Also, I feel that we should establish a standard for Pokemon Trainer. Does he get the three Pokemon you play as (Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard) or a choice of any six Pokemon? I vote for the former, since that's the character you actually play as, and the Trainer represented in Smash only has those three.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that some of your reasons for characters' positions don't make sense. For example, you say that Link is at that level because of his three day invincibility. Sonic can do that for eleven days. Also, you haven't provided actual evidence for Kirby summoning Meta Knight, and Shulk getting Alvis to change the universe for him was voted against earlier in the thread IIRC.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Kirby Dragons

It's not about the number of games the item appeared in. It's about whether or not that item actually belongs to the character. Also, I feel that we should establish a standard for Pokemon Trainer. Does he get the three Pokemon you play as (Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard) or a choice of any six Pokemon? I vote for the former, since that's the character you actually play as, and the Trainer represented in Smash only has those three.

Bowser took the Star Rod, and he uses it. I vote the latter for the trainer.Pokemon Trainers have the ability to summon any Pokemon, and there is still a trainer in the character. The character uses the trainer's name, and the trainer is the center of attention in the artwork.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that some of your reasons for characters' positions don't make sense. For example, you say that Link is at that level because of his three day invincibility. Sonic can do that for eleven days. Also, you haven't provided actual evidence for Kirby summoning Meta Knight, and Shulk getting Alvis to change the universe for him was voted against earlier in the thread IIRC.

We're nerfing Sonic so he gets less time as Super Sonic. I've provided plenty of proof of Kirby summoning Meta Knight, you've failed to debunk it. Alvis is a machine, and inside Shulk's sword, so why would he be disallowed?

Something I've noticed in your list is how ridiculously high Mario is. He has no impressive feats, and everyone else on the list would curbstomp him 1,000,000 times in less than a day.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Not all buffs boost stats. Examples include Monado Enchant, Debuff Immunity(Sharla’s Cure Bullet/Round), Damage Shield(Sharla’s Shield Bullet), Damage Heal(Sharla’s Heal Counter) and Regenerate(those accursed Quadwings).Would Shield even be useful against Ike considering Aether is heavily telegraphed and the fact that it can miss.

I guess you didn't read my tier list, but I'm not putting Nihil on Ike (although you're free to in your list or any hypothetical match-up), so I"m over this debate.
Also all FE physical FE attacks, which I'd consider a game mechanic.

It’s actually better than that! If it is the same tome from FE4(Genealogy of the Holy War) then it already has beaten near-invulnerability from dark magicks. Source: fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Naga

Good find.

Mewtwo is hardly supreme with speed as Deoxys has a significant edge over him(140 vs 180). Speed isn’t used for determining Evasion.

Good point I forgot to mention.

I know I might regret this but may I weight-in on earlier matchups?

Sure, anytime you want.

You forgot Mr. I’m really feeling it!

Ah. He probably would have gone under Bowser Jr.

Yeah, that's also how I feel about it. The reason I feel that way about the Boomerang and such is because those are separate items with different properties. Power Gloves and such apply boosts to Link, but the Boomerang has boosts itself. It's like having three cars, same make and model, but with slightly different properties under the hood. One has better brakes, one has a better engine, and one has more fuel capacity. Without gutting the cars, you can't combine them into one "supercar". Seeing as how magical properties don't seem to have a way to be removed and slapped on another item, they shouldn't stack here.

I get your point but the a big difference is unlike in the car scenario, all those cars exist in the same world. Meanwhile the land of Zelda constantly changes despite most of the games taking place in Hyrule. I think it's more likely they simply change the Boomerang's properties with each game than that they're are a dozen different boomerangs in Hyrule.

1. Agreed.
2. I'd like to point out that the Star Rod violates a rule that I proposed a while back, but was never recognized by anyone. The rule was basically characters can use any items and such of their own, but not ones that they just happened to use in one game. Examples include the sacred swords from Sonic and the Black Knight (the knights lent them to Sonic so he could become Excalibur Sonic), the Triforce from the Zelda games (Ganondorf steals it in the non-game-lore, Link/Zelda make a wish on it at the end of some games, etc.), and of course, the Star Rod from Paper Mario (Bowser steals it from Star Haven, does some bad things, and it gets returned at the end of the game). What do you all think of this proposal?
3. Agreed.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. Disagreed, for reasons previously mentioned.
8. Agreed, unless the HP bars are due to a specific attribute (i.e. Samus's armor durability VS Pokemon HP).
9. Agreed.
10. I'd say it depends on the game, honestly. If an average turn in Pokemon takes 15 seconds, we should count it as such. Granted, the time period varies depending on user input, but I think we can find a reasonable number for each game.

2: You realize this rule would keep Sonic from using his Wisps right? And TBH I'm not crazy about this rule as you've written it. If you want to say characters don't get access to items or powers that only appeared in one game and didn't really belong to them, I'd be interested in that. (Star Rod for Bowser and possibly Kirby, Sonic's Excalibur, Triforce for Zelda characters, other examples I can't think of.)
10: Well you and 3 other people agreed to a minute, so until a different amount of time is established we're using a minute. But we can try to find another alternative if we can all agree on one.

You're missing , , , , and .

Eff. And I excluded Mii's on purpose since they lack any game besides Smash.

Anyway, I'll do my top ten.

1. - 11 day invincibility, blistering speed, teleportation, time freezing, etc. make him an extremely powerful character, and he could take on most of (if not all of) the other contenders.
   
2. - Black holes, stars, a practically endless army of Lumas, and other cosmic feats make her a force to be reckoned with, especially with items like the Starman.
   
3. - Being composite gives him access to the deadly Magic Armor and Chateau Romani combination, meaning that he can be practically invincible for up to three days straight. All of his speed, strength, durability, etc. upgrades make him formidable even without this though, in addition to his items.
   
4. - Super-durable armor, a variety of beam weapons, missiles, bombs, speed, agility, the works.
   
5. - While his invulnerability to non-holy attacks gives him the advantage over most characters, his comparative lack of powerful offensive techniques bumps him down a notch.
   
6. - Need I explain?
7. - With his variety of life-giving, ability-enhancing power-ups, he is a very formidable fighter.
   
8. - Powers make her rather, well, powerful, and the Mega Laser gives her a great option to use at the start of a match.
   
9. - Weapon variety makes him very adaptable to almost any situation.
   
10. - (Yay Smash 4 smilie! :D) Psychic powers make him the most powerful Pokemon.

Bowser isn't on the list because the Star Rod doesn't belong to him.

1. Where is Dark Pit? He has access to everything Pit does, or are we not letting him use any weapons he didn't use in single player mode?
2. What powers does Mario have that Luigi lacks that make them not near each other on your list? The correct answer would be RPG powers, but I don't think that's why you put him so much stronger.
3. Why in your opinion is Mario better than Palutena?
4. Why is Link under Rosaluma?

Also I have another proposal, though I'm sure it will get shot down: Couldn't you argue the only reason Powers were limited in Uprising is because Pit was limited by not being a god (which would also explain why he could only hold a couple at a time unless it was a lot of weak ones), and ergo Palutena would be able to use them with unlimited uses?

Does no one rank the Pokemon Trainer?

I'm only using characters who appeared in Smash 4, but if y'all want to use anyone who has ever appeared we can do that. I do think we if rank Pokemon Trainer we should use him as he appeared in Brawl since we don't know for sure how good he is.

I have a lot of comments on tier list, so I'm sorry but I'm going in bold again. I'm only addressing things I find as flaws, not subjective things.

1. The Monado lets him do anything he wants. This is only possible with Alivs, who was ruled as an ally and thus illegal.
2. Most powerful Pokemon with ridiculous stats, has Trick to disarm his foes, variety of useful moves.
   
3. Ridiculous feats, can summon Meta Knight, variety of OHKOs, Mirror Kirby can reflect any projectile, Inhale can disarm weapons. No one agrees he can summon Meta Knight, and even if he could it would violate the ally rule.
4. The Star Rod lets him do anything he wants.
5. Can gain invincibility for three days.
   
6. Durability is greatly increased as Super Sonic. Sonic has 11 days of invincibiliy
7. Invincible to anything non-holy.
8. The Powers allow her access to several different abilities, can summon Centurions. Palutena is holy and can hurt Ganondorf
9. Black holes as instant kills, forcefield can block tons of force. Can seal Ganondorf in a black hole, and we've never seen him teleport before so he'd be stuck.
10. Can use Luna to cut durability in half, can negate all damage with the Lightsphere, can break through defensive powers with Rapier. Lightsphere only negates critical hits, terrain damage and effective damage. You also forgot his Falchion (different from Lucina's) that negates all non-projectile attacks from non-manaketes
11. Same as above.
12. Galactic attacks and Lifeup.
13. Teleportation, FTL speed, defeated the strongest warrior in the galaxy. When has he ever gone FTL?
    
14. Has a couple instant kills, has Gunship for offense and defense, planetary beams.
15. Defeated Hades, tons of weapons.
16. Pit's equal, tons of weapons.
17. Defeated the planetary Queen Sectonia. He's 8 inches tall, lacks the speed of Kirby or even MK, only one mediocre projectile...how is he so high?
    
18. Can tear holes through space and time, can use other weapons.
19. Powerful items and abilities. Magic Armor + 250k rupees means he should be higher.
20. Expert healing skills.
21. Power from a goddess, can negate skills with Nihil.
22. Powerful items and abilities. Magic Cape plus chateau Romani means he should be higher.
23. Can negate elemental attacks with Super Suit, can grow large, can gain invincibility.
24. See above.
25. Master swordsman with useful skills.
26. Pretty invincible, and is smarter than he looks.
27. Can heal himself or protect himself using the power of PSI.
28. Landmaster and Arwing.
29. See above.
30. Knocked down a small moon with a punch.
31. Same as Fox/Falco.
32. Can petrify opponents, can steal moves, poisoning, Magic Painbrush. What is this petrify move you speak of?
33. Aura reading is an effective fighting style, Double Team lets him dodge attacks, Aura Sphere never misses.
34. Knocked down a small moon with his head.
35. Same as Mario/Luigi, but with floating as an added bonus. Look at my tier list, she can do things the Mario Bros. can't.
36. Speedy and quick, hides from damage with Substitute, Hydro Pump and Giga Impact for power, Shadow Sneak to bypass defense, blocks damage with Mat Block.
37. Took down giants robots, has grenades and bullets.
    
38. Fast and powerful.
39. Negates fire attacks, possesses speed.
40. Keeps opponents at distances with his projectiles.
41. Telepathy, telekinesis, Light Arrows.
42. Can knock down moons with his punches. When did he punch out the moon?
43. Drives a supersonic vehicle.
44. Gunship for offense and defense.
    
45. Has eggifying as an OHKO, also has the Mega Eggdozer. Eggifying?
    
46. Fly is useful, Fire Blast and Flare Blitz for power. Don't see how he's below Falcon, ZSS, or Yoshi.
47. Can heal himself.
48. Has a counter and reflector, has his Final Smash if he ever needs it.
49. Pseudo-teleportation, speed, and athletic abilities.
50. Can sing his enemies to sleep, heal damage, and copy enemy attacks.
51. Paralyzation and Volt Tackle.
52. Hydro Pump and Withdraw.
53. Strong enough to lift a castle.
54. Physically fit.
55. Defeats enemies larger than he is, and has a spaceship, also blocks certain attacks with his Pikmin.
56. Strong enough to chop down a tree in a few swings, also random equipment.
57. Teamwork + hammers. You don't think 2 people with a hammer can take your 54, 55 and 56? You also forgot their super jumping skills.
58. Random equipment.
59. He's a weakling.
    
60. See above.

[/quote]

 

[Crystanium]

I still think the one minute turn is silly, but whatever.

 

[Crystanium]

You mean the enhanced defense I referred to in one of my posts? That's not present in Wind Waker IIRC, and that's the game I got the numbers from. Thus, the enhanced defense would only reduce this number. Gameplay > real-world logic. In gameplay, Link takes only 1/4 of a heart from eight bombs.

I don't understand what you're trying to convey here.

Allow me to elaborate. 1/4 is the amount of a heart that is taken away by eight bombs. If the designers were to portray one bomb accurately in relation to the amount dealt by eight, it would be 1/32. 1/32 would be one bomb, and 8/32 (which is equal to 1/4) would be eight. Since 1/32 of a heart is a bit too precise for a health system, then they made it the minimum amount that the health system allows, which is 1/4 of a heart.

This relies on taking 0.25 and dividing it by 8 to give the result of 0.03125. Tell me why I should accept this? One bomb alone already produces a quarter of damage with Link's enhanced defense from the great fairy in both OoT and MM. If the developers were concerned about precision, then a total of 8 bombs would remove 2 hearts. By this logic, you're telling me Link would only receive 0.125 damage from one bomb if he lacked the defense enhancement. Really? Because it would then at least be easy to round it to a quarter of damage, since that's precise as well.

In the game, Link takes 1/4 of a heart from eight bombs. In the game, Link can survive the equivalent of 1.3 tons of TNT eighty times before dying. This would be a relatively easy fix for the developers if they wanted the bombs to add up, but they didn't.

You're presupposing the developers even considered the amount of yield from one bomb. Not only that, you're presupposing that the developers who worked on one Zelda game are the same as the ones who worked on another. The fact is that whether it's one bomb or eight, Link receives the same amount of damage no matter what. Link falls from 10 meters or 100 meters, he receives the same damage. If Link gets knocked off a high spot by an enemy, he only receives damage from that enemy and not the fall itself.

Do you have technical data to back up this claim?

Do you want me to ask you the same question about your opinion on the possibility that the developers rounded to a quarter because 1/32 would be too precise? Let's not call the kettle black. I've demonstrated from both MM and TP that multiple bombs only produce damage equal to one bomb because the game reads it that way. Protocol 02 apparently tested this in WW HD. It follows that this would apply to the magic armor as well.

Why is that?

Because we're not coming up with consistent results from game play. It's also better to avoid the game mechanics by this point, since that is the current issue.

Link could only wear one tunic at once (with two, it could make him uncomfortable, hot, and possible impede his movement). The same goes for gauntlets (although likely to a higher degree, seeing as how they're so bulky and heavy-duty). As for the scales, it seems like they actually might stack. On his own, without upgrades, Link can dive for three seconds, or three meters. The silver scale adds three to those numbers, allowing Link to dive for six seconds, or six meters. The golden scale adds another three onto that limit, making it nine seconds and meters. It might seem like the golden scale would be better than the silver one, but the game doesn't state that, or even imply it. The in-game description for the golden scale reads, "Now you can dive much deeper than you could before!" Just because it's golden doesn't mean it's more powerful; just look at the Gold Mario amiibo.

Yes, Link could, but by that point, he'd be better off wearing plate armor, which exists in the Zeldaverse. (See Darknut and Iron Knuckle.) You're more than welcome to prove that the scales stack. Just because the golden scale allows Link to dive three seconds extra doesn't mean it stacked onto the silver scale.

The Twilight Princess scene is one instance, and is overridden by Link toughing it through tons of attacks in not only the other games in the series, but Twilight Princess itself. I'm not sure what your point is with the Wind Waker example. I assume you mean Tetra had to save Link because he would fall and die, but Link can jump from up there just after and be fine. As for why she stopped him, that's a rather natural reaction to someone jumping off of a cliff.

Why do you suppose it's a natural reaction? If I saw someone trying to do that, I think my reaction would be the same. Think about it.

Hmm, I see. How long does it take a Power Bomb to explode, from the time it's deployed? Because if it's long enough, Link would have time to equip the Magic Cape (which makes him completely intangible and thus resistant to the blast).

It depends. In the Metroid Prime trilogy, it's instant. In SM and MF it's about a second. In MOM, it'll take as long as Samus wants it to.

 

[Munomario777]

Bowser took the Star Rod, and he uses it. I vote the latter for the trainer.Pokemon Trainers have the ability to summon any Pokemon, and there is still a trainer in the character. The character uses the trainer's name, and the trainer is the center of attention in the artwork.

These have been left up to voting, so I won't provide a rebuttal. I've stated my reasons in the past, and they don't need restating.

We're nerfing Sonic so he gets less time as Super Sonic. I've provided plenty of proof of Kirby summoning Meta Knight, you've failed to debunk it. Alvis is a machine, and inside Shulk's sword, so why would he be disallowed?

Wait, since when are we "nerfing" characters? You haven't provided proof for Kirby summoning Meta Knight. You've provided speculation. Alvis is a Hom, and he is an ally, and he has been voted against, so he is not allowed.

Something I've noticed in your list is how ridiculously high Mario is. He has no impressive feats, and everyone else on the list would curbstomp him 1,000,000 times in less than a day.

He has the Mega Mushroom, Starman, and other invincibility items, as well as years of experience, huge variety, potential to take a ton of beating (each power-up is another layer of protection), and more.

I get your point but the a big difference is unlike in the car scenario, all those cars exist in the same world. Meanwhile the land of Zelda constantly changes despite most of the games taking place in Hyrule. I think it's more likely they simply change the Boomerang's properties with each game than that they're are a dozen different boomerangs in Hyrule.

The boomerangs are in the same world (I don't see how them being in separate worlds would allow them to be combined anyways). The land of Hyrule changes so much between each game is because each game takes place generations after the last. Each game has a different Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, and likely a different boomerang.

2: You realize this rule would keep Sonic from using his Wisps right? And TBH I'm not crazy about this rule as you've written it. If you want to say characters don't get access to items or powers that only appeared in one game and didn't really belong to them, I'd be interested in that. (Star Rod for Bowser and possibly Kirby, Sonic's Excalibur, Triforce for Zelda characters, other examples I can't think of.)

The Wisps have been with Sonic for three main series games now; Sonic Colors, Generations, and Lost World (and those games' respective handheld versions). They function as standard power-ups; one of the creators of the Sonic games even said that he wants them to be a mainstay power-up for the franchise. What you underlined is pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting, by the way. I think I forgot to include the "belonging to them" part, though. My bad.

10: Well you and 3 other people agreed to a minute, so until a different amount of time is established we're using a minute. But we can try to find another alternative if we can all agree on one.

Shall we have another vote then? I propose that we base turn durations on the average length of a turn in the respective game. Given @Dryn's latest post, I'm assuming he's voting against the universal one minute rule.

Eff. And I excluded Mii's on purpose since they lack any game besides Smash.

What about Wii Sports?

1. Where is Dark Pit? He has access to everything Pit does, or are we not letting him use any weapons he didn't use in single player mode?
2. What powers does Mario have that Luigi lacks that make them not near each other on your list? The correct answer would be RPG powers, but I don't think that's why you put him so much stronger.
3. Why in your opinion is Mario better than Palutena?
4. Why is Link under Rosaluma?

1. To avoid redundancy.
2. RPG powers are the main point, but he also has the Wing Cap and other odds and ends. Also, again, to avoid redundancy. (Haha, irony.)
3. Because Mario can become huge and invincible and crush Palutena. Palutena cannot do the same to Mario.
4. Because Rosalina can create a black hole and spaghettify Link. Link cannot do the same to Rosalina.

Also I have another proposal, though I'm sure it will get shot down: Couldn't you argue the only reason Powers were limited in Uprising is because Pit was limited by not being a god (which would also explain why he could only hold a couple at a time unless it was a lot of weak ones), and ergo Palutena would be able to use them with unlimited uses?

While that is an interesting theory, until we get official confirmation, we should take it as-is.

I'm only using characters who appeared in Smash 4, but if y'all want to use anyone who has ever appeared we can do that. I do think we if rank Pokemon Trainer we should use him as he appeared in Brawl since we don't know for sure how good he is.

Agreed. We've only seen the Trainer in Smash with those three Pokemon, so that's all we can assume that he has.

I have a lot of comments on tier list, so I'm sorry but I'm going in bold again. I'm only addressing things I find as flaws, not subjective things.

I agree with your comments, although I'd like to point out that Toon Link from Wind Waker can only hold up to 5,000 Rupees, not 250,000 (I'm not sure where you're getting that number from, by the way).

I still think the one minute turn is silly, but whatever.

I agree; I feel that we should base it on the specific game. A turn doesn't usually take a full minute in Pokemon, so we shouldn't treat a turn as a full minute.

I don't understand what you're trying to convey here.

You referred to the enhanced defense granted by the Great Fairy. I pointed out that that doesn't exist in Wind Waker, so the enhanced defense would be added to the defense Link demonstrates in that game (1/4 of a heart from eight bombs).

This relies on taking 0.25 and dividing it by 8 to give the result of 0.03125. Tell me why I should accept this? One bomb alone already produces a quarter of damage with Link's enhanced defense from the great fairy in both OoT and MM. If the developers were concerned about precision, then a total of 8 bombs would remove 2 hearts. By this logic, you're telling me Link would only receive 0.125 damage from one bomb if he lacked the defense enhancement. Really? Because it would then at least be easy to round it to a quarter of damage, since that's precise as well.

One bomb produces a quarter of damage because that's the minimum portion of a heart that the game is coded to display. That also happens to be the amount that eight bombs yield. The fact that it's easy to round it to a quarter is exactly my point. 0.125 of a heart is much too precise, and is not accounted for in the game's engine, so they increased it to 1/4 of a heart.

You're presupposing the developers even considered the amount of yield from one bomb. Not only that, you're presupposing that the developers who worked on one Zelda game are the same as the ones who worked on another. The fact is that whether it's one bomb or eight, Link receives the same amount of damage no matter what. Link falls from 10 meters or 100 meters, he receives the same damage. If Link gets knocked off a high spot by an enemy, he only receives damage from that enemy and not the fall itself.

Why wouldn't the developers consider the yield of a bomb? They coded it, after all. The same group of people does make most of the Zelda games, that group being Nintendo EAD. Terminal velocity could explain the lack of distance in falling heights (albeit a rather exaggerated version of it). Is Link on his back when he is falling after being hit? If so, the added air resistance plus distributing the impact of the landing could be the culprit here.

Do you want me to ask you the same question about your opinion on the possibility that the developers rounded to a quarter because 1/32 would be too precise? Let's not call the kettle black. I've demonstrated from both MM and TP that multiple bombs only produce damage equal to one bomb because the game reads it that way. Protocol 02 apparently tested this in WW HD. It follows that this would apply to the magic armor as well.

Multiple bombs counting as one is something that would exist in the game's coding, while the 1/32 > 1/4 case would be in development and would likely not have an impact on the game's actual coding (or at least one revealing the reason for the decision). By "technical data" I mean data from the game's coding and such that demonstrates this. Do you have a link to Protocol 02's research?

Because we're not coming up with consistent results from game play. It's also better to avoid the game mechanics by this point, since that is the current issue.

In gameplay, Link can survive eight bombs eighty times in a row. Whether or not we're actually using hearts, you cannot deny that fact.

Yes, Link could, but by that point, he'd be better off wearing plate armor, which exists in the Zeldaverse. (See Darknut and Iron Knuckle.) You're more than welcome to prove that the scales stack. Just because the golden scale allows Link to dive three seconds extra doesn't mean it stacked onto the silver scale.

Link doesn't own plate armor, though (plus, it would likely impede his movement). Link doesn't seem to get rid of the silver scale once he gets the golden one, and they're very similar other than the color. Anyway, as I said earlier, I say we leave this up to a vote, especially since it affects many characters other than Link. So far, both Shadow and Kirby Dragons have voted in favor of the stacking, barring cases where it would be physically impossible (i.e. two pairs of Power Gloves).

Why do you suppose it's a natural reaction? If I saw someone trying to do that, I think my reaction would be the same. Think about it.

That's what I mean by "natural". Tetra acted on reaction, regardless of whether or not she knew she could fall from that height (which, considering they just met, she probably didn't know).

It depends. In the Metroid Prime trilogy, it's instant. In SM and MF it's about a second. In MOM, it'll take as long as Samus wants it to.

I see. How quickly does the explosion spread?

 

[Crystanium]

I agree; I feel that we should base it on the specific game. A turn doesn't usually take a full minute in Pokemon, so we shouldn't treat a turn as a full minute.

Well, as I stated before, if I tried striking my opponent, I wouldn't have to wait an entire minute for my opponent to try striking back. That's why I don't agree with it.

You referred to the enhanced defense granted by the Great Fairy. I pointed out that that doesn't exist in Wind Waker, so the enhanced defense would be added to the defense Link demonstrates in that game (1/4 of a heart from eight bombs).

I thought so. Since this is composite Link, I would find it applicable anyway. It appears consistent from three different Zelda games so far. I'm sure with OoT having the same engine, that counts as four games that behave the same.

One bomb produces a quarter of damage because that's the minimum portion of a heart that the game is coded to display. That also happens to be the amount that eight bombs yield. The fact that it's easy to round it to a quarter is exactly my point. 0.125 of a heart is much too precise, and is not accounted for in the game's engine, so they increased it to 1/4 of a heart.

Yes, and with 8 bombs, the game could have been programmed so that Link loses 2 hearts with his enhanced defense. That's also precise. This argument is just as valid as yours. The only difference is I'm not taking 0.25 and dividing it by 8 for whatever reason you're doing so. (Probably because you've been working with 8 bombs all this time.) The fact is Link receives only half damage (without the enhanced defense) regardless of the amount of bombs present. He receives only a quarter of damage (with the enhanced defense) regardless of the amount of bombs present.

Why wouldn't the developers consider the yield of a bomb? They coded it, after all. The same group of people does make most of the Zelda games, that group being Nintendo EAD. Terminal velocity could explain the lack of distance in falling heights (albeit a rather exaggerated version of it). Is Link on his back when he is falling after being hit? If so, the added air resistance plus distributing the impact of the landing could be the culprit here.

They coded it, but it doesn't mean they thought, "Hm, one bomb should be equal to x kilograms of TNT." Nintendo EAD is a group of people under that name. Retro Studios has different employees today than it did when it worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy. You're not going to reach terminal velocity from 10 meters, let alone 100 meters. I'm not sure what position Link is in, but regardless, you hit the ground, you're going to get hurt. The game doesn't take these into consideration because of its programming. The point is these are demonstrating that the magic armor's extreme defense against 8 bombs is resting on a game mechanic.

Multiple bombs counting as one is something that would exist in the game's coding, while the 1/32 > 1/4 case would be in development and would likely not have an impact on the game's actual coding (or at least one revealing the reason for the decision). By "technical data" I mean data from the game's coding and such that demonstrates this. Do you have a link to Protocol 02's research?

The games coding would be based on the developers. Please prove that the developers were rounding 1/32 to 1/4. You've only given your opinion on this so far. If that was honestly such an issue, I don't see why they couldn't use a meter like they did in Adventure of Link. To this day, developers have no issue making the magic meter a meter where consumption of magic is not an issue with reduction.

In gameplay, Link can survive eight bombs eighty times in a row. Whether or not we're actually using hearts, you cannot deny that fact.

Yes, in game play riddled with game mechanics in the context we're speaking.

Link doesn't own plate armor, though (plus, it would likely impede his movement).

He should. He'd look more bad***. As for impeded mobility, that's untrue.

Link doesn't seem to get rid of the silver scale once he gets the golden one, and they're very similar other than the color. Anyway, as I said earlier, I say we leave this up to a vote, especially since it affects many characters other than Link. So far, both Shadow and Kirby Dragons have voted in favor of the stacking, barring cases where it would be physically impossible (i.e. two pairs of Power Gloves).

He doesn't seem to, but he also doesn't seem to get rid of the silver gauntlets, either. They're replaced either way. Of course the scales will look similar. Chances are they're both the same item, one simply with a different coloration. It seems only one of them agreed with something like multiple rings being used. Really, when stacking has never been demonstrated in the Zelda series, it's foolish to assume it should behave that way. Let's work with canon, not fanon.

That's what I mean by "natural". Tetra acted on reaction, regardless of whether or not she knew she could fall from that height (which, considering they just met, she probably didn't know).

Considering they're both Hylians, I would suspect they have an idea of how durable they are.

I see. How quickly does the explosion spread?

If it's TNT, a common explosive in the military, the explosion would travel 6,900 m/s, or 20.16 times faster than the speed of sound. To put that in perspective, the explosion could cover 62.88 football fields in one second, or 4.29 miles.

Edit: I've just realized something. In Metroid: Other M, the hologram concerning the Queen Metroid says she is 6 meters tall, 11 meters long. I've been working with the assumption that the power bomb has a blast radius of 10 meters based on the official Metroid Prime Web site. However, the battle against the Queen Metroid shows that the room is at least two-and-a-half Queen Metroids, or 27.5 meters. Using TNT, this means the amount of time it takes for the power bomb to cover this distance is 0.0039855072463768 seconds. This means the yield of the power bomb is 1,212,920,542,968.76 joules, or 289.89 tons of TNT!

 

[Munomario777]

Well, as I stated before, if I tried striking my opponent, I wouldn't have to wait an entire minute for my opponent to try striking back. That's why I don't agree with it.

Ah. The turn time rule is meant for attacks that provide an effect over X amount of turns (i.e. poison for 2 turns, added defense for five turns, etc.) rather than the duration between attacks.

I thought so. Since this is composite Link, I would find it applicable anyway. It appears consistent from three different Zelda games so far. I'm sure with OoT having the same engine, that counts as four games that behave the same.

Since Link in Wind Waker doesn't have the enhanced defense granted to him, the damage taken from bombs doesn't take the defense enhancement into account. The enhanced defense from other games would thus further reduce this amount.

Yes, and with 8 bombs, the game could have been programmed so that Link loses 2 hearts with his enhanced defense. That's also precise. This argument is just as valid as yours. The only difference is I'm not taking 0.25 and dividing it by 8 for whatever reason you're doing so. (Probably because you've been working with 8 bombs all this time.) The fact is Link receives only half damage (without the enhanced defense) regardless of the amount of bombs present. He receives only a quarter of damage (with the enhanced defense) regardless of the amount of bombs present.

Since this doesn't seem to be going anywhere, I suggest that we put it up to vote. @ ShadowLBlue @ Kirby Dragons @ Nerdicon , should eight bombs count as a quarter heart like they do in-game or two hearts like they would in real life?

They coded it, but it doesn't mean they thought, "Hm, one bomb should be equal to x kilograms of TNT."

They would be measuring in hearts, not TNT equivalent. We're the ones doing the latter.

Nintendo EAD is a group of people under that name. Retro Studios has different employees today than it did when it worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy.

Did EAD's development team change between those Zelda games?

You're not going to reach terminal velocity from 10 meters, let alone 100 meters.

As I said, exaggerated terminal velocity.

I'm not sure what position Link is in, but regardless, you hit the ground, you're going to get hurt.

The impact would be lessened by distributing the force throughout the body. Seeing as how the norm for this is a quarter heart, this seems to reduce it to a very small amount.

He should. He'd look more bad***. As for impeded mobility, that's untrue.

True. He still doesn't own a suit of armor though (at least I haven't heard of him owning one), regardless of whether or not it would be advantageous for him to wear one.

He doesn't seem to, but he also doesn't seem to get rid of the silver gauntlets, either. They're replaced either way. Of course the scales will look similar. Chances are they're both the same item, one simply with a different coloration. It seems only one of them agreed with something like multiple rings being used. Really, when stacking has never been demonstrated in the Zelda series, it's foolish to assume it should behave that way. Let's work with canon, not fanon.

Since this has been put up to vote, I'll move on to the next topic.

Considering they're both Hylians, I would suspect they have an idea of how durable they are.

True. Perhaps Link being a legendary hero and all that would have some impact, but I dunno.

If it's TNT, a common explosive in the military, the explosion would travel 6,900 m/s, or 20.16 times faster than the speed of sound. To put that in perspective, the explosion could cover 62.88 football fields in one second, or 4.29 miles.

Do you have a video of the other uses of the Power Bomb? The Other M instance seems like it would give Link some time to react (during the charging period), so I'm interested to see how the others stack up.

 

[Crystanium]

Ah. The turn time rule is meant for attacks that provide an effect over X amount of turns (i.e. poison for 2 turns, added defense for five turns, etc.) rather than the duration between attacks.

Ah, I see. I suppose that would really be dependent on the different effects of say, poison. Burns would take days, if not weeks to heal, especially from flames produced by fire-types.

Since Link in Wind Waker doesn't have the enhanced defense granted to him, the damage taken from bombs doesn't take the defense enhancement into account. The enhanced defense from other games would thus further reduce this amount.

It's still applicable, even without the enhanced defense added into the equation, since Link can receive damage in all of the games anyway. Maybe you could test how much damage Link receives from one bomb. I wouldn't be surprised if it's half a heart as it was in OoT, MM, and TP.

Since this doesn't seem to be going anywhere, I suggest that we put it up to vote. @ ShadowLBlue @ Kirby Dragons @ Nerdicon , should eight bombs count as a quarter heart like they do in-game or two hearts like they would in real life?

Munomario777, this isn't going to resolve anything. The lose of two hearts would equally be something from in-game, since we're working on the amount of damage caused by bombs during game play.

They would be measuring in hearts, not TNT equivalent. We're the ones doing the latter.

Of course, but I was speaking in terms of TNT, as you already know.

Did EAD's development team change between those Zelda games?

I'm not sure. I'm sure there are still a few people who are part of the same development team between the games. I'm sure Koji Kondo would be the same person who makes the music, whereas the producer or director would probably be Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma, or even Satoru Iwata with Leslie Swan and Jeff Miller being those who do the localization.

The impact would be lessened by distributing the force throughout the body. Seeing as how the norm for this is a quarter heart, this seems to reduce it to a very small amount.

Even from a higher distance, it wouldn't make any difference. It's because it's a game mechanic. That's how the game is programmed. I only brought this up because of the magic armor's defense.

True. He still doesn't own a suit of armor though (at least I haven't heard of him owning one), regardless of whether or not it would be advantageous for him to wear one.

I think he should. The Zelda series makes it quite clear that Link has the traits of a knight and I think in ALttP, he's supposed to be a knight. SS also works around this concept where Link is going into knighthood.

Do you have a video of the other uses of the Power Bomb? The Other M instance seems like it would give Link some time to react (during the charging period), so I'm interested to see how the others stack up.

Metroid: Zero Mission

Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes

Super Metroid

Metroid Fusion

 

[Nerdicon]

I don't even know what's going on at this point.
But if you're arguing about how much damage the magic armor blocks then no need to fuss, because it negates all damage
Anyway we have a bracket to finish.
I've already done Kirby vs Palutena. (Kirby wins)
I think someone has done Mega Man vs Robin (Correct me if I'm wrong)
So I can definitely do Pit vs. Samus

 

[Crystanium]

This is even better. So, the last calculation I did assumed Samus was in the center of the room when battling the Queen Metroid. If she had been on one end of the room, however, only half of the power bomb would cover the room. If that is the case, then this would mean the power bomb could cover at least 55 meters, which would result in 2.32 kilotons of TNT. Little Boy produced 15 kilotons of TNT, so that's also not out of the realm of possibility.

@ Nerdicon , please prove the magic armor can negate all damage. Never mind, that won't matter. Considering the darkburst can pull in space pirates who are taller and heavier into a dark dimension, this should end the battle against Link.

Also, Samus versus Pit? I've played both games (with the exception of Kid Icarus: Of Monsters and Myths), so I can figure that one out.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Munomario777 Where's Luigi on your list then? Luigi has everything you said about Mario, plus he's faster and jumps higher. Peach also has the power-ups, and the addition of floating. And unless Mario has any universal feats, he really shouldn't be above Mewtwo.

Some even claim Mario would lose to this guy.

@ ShadowLBlue I agree to the Palutena rule.

I thought we got rid of the outside help rule, if the fighter could make the help come to the arena.

Well no, I guess we don't allow certain summoned allies. I'd be in favor of allowing summoned allies as long as A) it's not using teleportation to physically go get the ally to help them or B) they're not calling a separate entity(s) for help. So if Sora was a character, he could use summons (temporarily bring Disney characters to help him in some way) but Star Fox can't call for back-up in his arwing. I guess Palutena's Centurions count since I believe she can actually summon them like Rosalina does Luma but truthfully I'm not sure.

I would define "outside help" as assistance from one with a personality of its own, i.e., one who possesses personhood. Outside help would require one to be conscious and self-aware, but not necessarily sentient (capable of feeling or experiencing pleasure and/or pain). Hard artificial intelligence would be considered another person. Spirits would fall in this category, as would anthropomorphic characters.
Summoning should be permitted if and only if the one summon is conjured out of nowhere or if the one summoned is coerced by some means, such as telepathy. Blessings may also be permitted in spite of coming from another conscious and self-aware being, such as Din's blessing towards Ganondorf, or Lady Palutena's blessing towards Pit. That's the only thing granted to them, though. If Wisps behave similarly, then Sonic is permitted this, too.

"We've only seen the trainer with the three Pokémon he has in Smash." And we've only seen Mario with the Fire/Cape Flower, Kirby with a few of his Copy Abilities, Link with a few of his items, etc.

 

[Munomario777]

Ah, I see. I suppose that would really be dependent on the different effects of say, poison. Burns would take days, if not weeks to heal, especially from flames produced by fire-types.

I'd say it really depends on the characters involved for burns. In the 3D Mario titles, Mario can get his rear end burnt off by lava and be fine the next second, so that sort of burn recovery wouldn't surprise me.

It's still applicable, even without the enhanced defense added into the equation, since Link can receive damage in all of the games anyway. Maybe you could test how much damage Link receives from one bomb. I wouldn't be surprised if it's half a heart as it was in OoT, MM, and TP.

Actually, in Wind Waker, Link only takes a quarter heart of damage per bomb (note that this is without the enhanced defense).

Munomario777, this isn't going to resolve anything. The lose of two hearts would equally be something from in-game, since we're working on the amount of damage caused by bombs during game play.

Then why, may I ask, does Link not take two hearts of damage from eight bombs in-game?

Of course, but I was speaking in terms of TNT, as you already know.

Yes, but the developers were working in terms of bombs and hearts of damage.

I'm not sure. I'm sure there are still a few people who are part of the same development team between the games. I'm sure Koji Kondo would be the same person who makes the music, whereas the producer or director would probably be Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma, or even Satoru Iwata with Leslie Swan and Jeff Miller being those who do the localization.

Yup.

Even from a higher distance, it wouldn't make any difference. It's because it's a game mechanic. That's how the game is programmed. I only brought this up because of the magic armor's defense.

I think a good way to test this would be to jump off of a ledge and see when exactly Link stops accelerating, and compare that with when he starts taking damage. If they line up, then that's the reason.

I think he should. The Zelda series makes it quite clear that Link has the traits of a knight and I think in ALttP, he's supposed to be a knight. SS also works around this concept where Link is going into knighthood.

He should, of course, but perhaps the peaceful village on Outset Island (Link's home in Wind Waker) isn't the best place to acquire a suit of armor.

Metroid: Zero Mission

Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes

Super Metroid

Metroid Fusion

I see. The shockwaves seem to expand slowly enough that Link could put on the Magic Cape in time.

@ Munomario777 Where's Luigi on your list then? Luigi has everything you said about Mario, plus he's faster and jumps higher. Peach also has the power-ups, and the addition of floating. And unless Mario has any universal feats, he really shouldn't be above Mewtwo.

Some even claim Mario would lose to this guy.

Mario has F.L.U.D.D. as well. The Turbo Nozzle makes the running speed point moot (it allows Mario to run at high speeds, to the point of running on water), the Rocket Nozzle and the Cape Feather make jumping height a non-issue, and the Hover Nozzle allows him to float. The reason that Mario is above Mewtwo is because Mario's Starman would allow him to take down Mewtwo before it could even lay a hand on him.

@ ShadowLBlue I agree to the Palutena rule.

I thought we got rid of the outside help rule, if the fighter could make the help come to the arena.

Meta Knight is a separate entity being called for help (from the first quote) and has a personality, consciousness, etc. (from the second quote). I don't see where you're getting this from.

"We've only seen the trainer with the three Pokémon he has in Smash." And we've only seen Mario with the Fire/Cape Flower, Kirby with a few of his Copy Abilities, Link with a few of his items, etc.

Pokemon are separate characters. Power-ups, Copy Abilities, and items are not. Also, we have seen Link with other items in the Zelda games. Since there are many Pokemon trainers, and the one in Smash isn't specified, we can only assume that he's exclusive to this game. This trainer has only been shown to have those three Pokemon, so we cannot assume he has any others.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Mario has F.L.U.D.D. as well. The Turbo Nozzle makes the running speed point moot (it allows Mario to run at high speeds, to the point of running on water), the Rocket Nozzle and the Cape Feather make jumping height a non-issue, and the Hover Nozzle allows him to float. The reason that Mario is above Mewtwo is because Mario's Starman would allow him to take down Mewtwo before it could even lay a hand on him.

Those things you've mentioned don't change the fact that he should be low on the list. Mewtwo won't be laying hands on Mario. He could just use Teleport to avoid Mario until the Starman wears off, mind control him into running away, evade Mario with his high evasion, etc.

Meta Knight is a separate entity being called for help (from the first quote) and has a personality, consciousness, etc. (from the second quote). I don't see where you're getting this from.

He's not being called for help, he's being summoned by the Helper function. The second quote also said summons with personalities are allowed.

Pokemon are separate characters. Power-ups, Copy Abilities, and items are not. Also, we have seen Link with other items in the Zelda games. Since there are many Pokemon trainers, and the one in Smash isn't specified, we can only assume that he's exclusive to this game. This trainer has only been shown to have those three Pokemon, so we cannot assume he has any others.

Summons are allowed. Since the trainer isn't anyone specific, that means he should be composite. It's like Link, because there are different Links. Pokémon Trainers have been seen with a variety of Pokémon in the canon games.

 

[Munomario777]

Those things you've mentioned don't change the fact that he should be low on the list. Mewtwo won't be laying hands on Mario. He could just use Teleport to avoid Mario until the Starman wears off, mind control him into running away, evade Mario with his high evasion, etc.

Teleport has limited use. Mario is invincible, so he cannot be mind controlled. What high evasion? As I said earlier, the Speed stat measures the speed of attacks, not swiftness of dodging and such.

He's not being called for help, he's being summoned by the Helper function. The second quote also said summons with personalities are allowed.

I would define "outside help" as assistance from one with a personality of its own, i.e., one who possesses personhood. Outside help would require one to be conscious and self-aware, but not necessarily sentient (capable of feeling or experiencing pleasure and/or pain). Hard artificial intelligence would be considered another person. Spirits would fall in this category, as would anthropomorphic characters.

Outside help is not allowed, and is defined as the above. Meta Knight falls under the underlined categories. Therefore, Kirby is not allowed to use him in this discussion. Of course, this entire discussion is irrelevant and rather pointless if you cannot actually prove that Kirby has summoned Meta Knight in a canon source.

Summons are allowed. Since the trainer isn't anyone specific, that means he should be composite. It's like Link, because there are different Links. Pokémon Trainers have been seen with a variety of Pokémon in the canon games.

Yes, and this Trainer has the summons of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. The difference between Link and the Trainers is that being a Trainer is almost like a profession/hobby/etc., in that there are many Trainers at any given time. All of the Links share the "Spirit of the Hero", and are all descended from one another. Neither of these apply to the Pokemon Trainers of the world, so there's no reason to combine them. If we're combining all of the Pokemon Trainers just because of their profession, then we might as well combine Mario and Luigi because they're both plumbers.

Also, going back to the quote I underlined things in, other Pokemon also share the underlined attributes, so they should not be allowed.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Teleport has limited use. Mario is invincible, so he cannot be mind controlled. What high evasion? As I said earlier, the Speed stat measures the speed of attacks, not swiftness of dodging and such.

Starman has limited use too. And I was referring to Mewtwo's actual evasion stat. Invincibility doesn't equal immunity to mind control.

Outside help is not allowed, and is defined as the above. Meta Knight falls under the underlined categories. Therefore, Kirby is not allowed to use him in this discussion. Of course, this entire discussion is irrelevant and rather pointless if you cannot actually prove that Kirby has summoned Meta Knight in a canon source.

I have proved it. Speculation without debunking is proof. If you care to attempt to disprove what I'm saying, go ahead. But just saying "I disagree." doesn't do anything. I can disagree to Link using the Chateau Romani with the Magic Armor/Magic Cape, he hasn't done that before.

"Summoning should be permitted if and only if the one summon is conjured out of nowhere or if the one summoned is coerced by some means, such as telepathy."
Meta Knight is conjured out of nowhere.

Yes, and this Trainer has the summons of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. The difference between Link and the Trainers is that being a Trainer is almost like a profession/hobby/etc., in that there are many Trainers at any given time. All of the Links share the "Spirit of the Hero", and are all descended from one another. Neither of these apply to the Pokemon Trainers of the world, so there's no reason to combine them. If we're combining all of the Pokemon Trainers just because of their profession, then we might as well combine Mario and Luigi because they're both plumbers.

Mario and Luigi aren't named Plumber. And we don't have to bind the trainer to the rules of Brawl, when the rules of Pokémon overrides them.

Also, going back to the quote I underlined things in, other Pokemon also share the underlined attributes, so they should not be allowed.

They're summons.

 

[OmegaSorin]

I'd have to say if we're talking about Nintendo Canon and not Smash Canon, the strongest would have to be Ganondorf.

 

[Munomario777]

Starman has limited use too. And I was referring to Mewtwo's actual evasion stat. Invincibility doesn't equal immunity to mind control.

Starman grants the user invincibility for the entire duration. Mewtwo has no such ability. Has Mewtwo mind controlled an opponent which is invulnerable to all other attacks before? If not, I have no reason to believe that he could.

Speculation without debunking is proof.

"Summoning should be permitted if and only if the one summon is conjured out of nowhere or if the one summoned is coerced by some means, such as telepathy."
Meta Knight is conjured out of nowhere.

In what Kirby game does this occur?

Mario and Luigi aren't named Plumber. And we don't have to bind the trainer to the rules of Brawl, when the rules of Pokémon overrides them.

I'd imagine that the Brawl character in question wasn't named "Pokemon Trainer" at his birth. What "rules of Pokemon" say that each Trainer can choose from any six Pokemon even if they do not possess said Pokemon?

They're summons.

...which this Trainer does not have.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Starman grants the user invincibility for the entire duration. Mewtwo has no such ability. Has Mewtwo mind controlled an opponent which is invulnerable to all other attacks before? If not, I have no reason to believe that he could.

And Mewtwo could teleport to the other side of the arena, Mario can't get there that quickly. I have no reason to believe the Starman grants Mario immune to mind control. It only protects him from damage, and not even all damage, so why would it stop mind control?

You can't reject something without reason to reject it.

In what Kirby game does this occur?

KSSU, he creates helpers out of nowhere. What Zelda game does Link use Magic Armor with Chateau Romani?

I'd imagine that the Brawl character in question wasn't named "Pokemon Trainer" at his birth. What "rules of Pokemon" say that each Trainer can choose from any six Pokemon even if they do not possess said Pokemon?

Pokémon Trainer is no specific trainer, so he's all trainers. Simple. Every Pokémon is controllable by a trainer.

...which this Trainer does not have.

Not in Brawl, but in canon, because a "Pokémon Trainer" has legendaries.

 

[Munomario777]

And Mewtwo could teleport to the other side of the arena, Mario can't get there that quickly. I have no reason to believe the Starman grants Mario immune to mind control. It only protects him from damage, and not even all damage, so why would it stop mind control?

When Mewtwo teleports away and waits out the Starman, it teleports back to fight Mario. When Mewtwo teleports back, Mario uses the Statue Leaf/Lucky Bell to become a statue. Mewtwo teleports back, rinse and repeat. When Mewtwo runs out of Teleports, Mario uses his Mega Mushroom to squash Mewtwo like a Bug type.

As for mind control, Starman users are immune to magic attacks (as shown by the Magikoopas). If you can prove that Mewtwo has conducted mind control on an opponent with a similar level of invulnerability, then he gets to mind control Starman Mario.

You can't reject something without reason to reject it.

Okay, I'll give you a reason. If we're accepting any unproven speculation, then I could just as easily say that Mewtwo can only mind control Nurse Joy. It's not disproven, because it never mind controls anyone else.

Speculation is not proof. If it is, anyone can just make up evidence to an unproven claim.

KSSU, he creates helpers out of nowhere. What Zelda game does Link use Magic Armor with Chateau Romani?

And which one of those Helpers is Meta Knight?

In Majora's Mask, Chateau Romani gives Link infinite magic. In Wind Waker, the Magic Armor runs on magic. It's putting two and two together really.

Pokémon Trainer is no specific trainer, so he's all trainers. Simple. Every Pokémon is controllable by a trainer.

Pokemon Trainer is a specific trainer, that trainer being the one portrayed in Brawl. This particular trainer's Pokemon are Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.

Not in Brawl, but in canon, because a "Pokémon Trainer" has legendaries.

What about being a "Pokemon Trainer" automatically gives you Legendaries?