Who wrecks fox?

[Nemiak temp]

SORRY GUYS. #argumentativeprickfornoreason
#illprobablydoitagaintho
#ifitwerentforthosemedlingmods

 

[dRevan64]

marth sucks vs fox in this game

GUESS I'VE GOT BRAIN PROBLEMS THEN
not that I've even seen the matchup happen on anything resembling a high level though so this is largely conjecture anyway

 

[Deleted member]

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never stated you were bad, I stated that the matchup is only in Bowser's favor at low levels of play, which obviously isn't relevant to the topic at hand, or any important topic for that matter. Sorry if you came to your conclusions through personal experience as a Fox player, but I had no way of knowing that.

hey, i remember when i was a moderator. if i thought someone was stupid, i just banned them for being an adbot. did you ever do that when you were a mod? also i really hate that guy.

 

[dRevan64]

Giga bowser is a reliable fox counter.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Giga bowser is a reliable fox counter.

try smash ballz bro

 

[Player -0]

I think Fox has that MU in the bag, waveshine all day.

 

[Jolteon]

With very few exceptions, almost no one at this point of the metagame has meaningful "matchup experience" vs any new character. Stating that m2k has Pit experience is like a new player claiming they have Fox experience after playing against a few Fox players after a few tournaments.

 

[Deleted member]

...yo

i bet fox does good against fox.

 

[Darkgun]

Lucario! Sort of.... I'm probably showing a bit of bias here.

Because on the one hand, Lucario gets impossibly long combos on fast fallers, and who falls faster than spacies? Can't lock him in hitstun? Tech chase! Silly things like the jab combo start tech chases. usmash links into practically anything needed for the matchup. There's probably some more here that I'm not listing a well, but it inevitable is just the long way of saying that Lucario cleans house with fast fallers.

However, most people have two hands, and on that second hand we have the fact that, Fox has the ability to crowd Lucario into any part of the stage he may want, fairly noncommittal approach options, excellent shield pressure, simple walling opportunities, the free damage laser, an awesome OoS, an oddly decent gimp option (namely shine spike) for the matchup... and, ya know, the rest of his unbelievable neutral game aspects that aren't listed.

Let's see some more Fox-Lucario matches! Might help. And it'll be real fun to watch.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Nearly 50 people have voted in the past two weeks and itd be awesome if 100 people could participate in this community involved 'tier list'. Just trying to gather the most recent opinions on character placement and then I'll make a tier list combining these results with tournament results. Im posting in a lot of threads so there can be more more opinions as that will reflect more accurately. If you havent voted yet please do! (just 3.0 opinions please)

The first one has you rank each character individually 1-41, I arranged it to what I think so it can be easier but itll still take a little time.
<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GDPZ53B">Click here to take survey</a>

If you dont care as much and/or dont wanna spend as much time then this one is just rankings based on tier.
<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GD3NDM9">Click here to take survey</a>

Thanks guys!

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lucario

no

1) Sucks in neutral
2) Relies on jabs/dash atk to get things started. Those moves are extremely sustainable to CC shine and as we all know, shine=profit because there is always a favorable follow up coming right after said shine. If this happens every time you try to get something started, you aren't going to get much done.
3) Lacks a good approach option. Aura balls aren't getting you in. You can DD all you want, but these lasers are still hitting you. You can dash attack in, but then you activated my trap card.
He can do cool stuff an all, but fox has his number. Just like most of the cast.

 

[tripwire]

Fox is broken. Lucario can combo fox really well, but who cant? Fox is just so controlling. I really hate going against Marth, Yoshi, Ness, Link. More or less with Fox you just need to know your match up.

 

[DiZZ]

Hows the sonic v fox mu? I play with a guy called darky alot and he has a setup on spacies where you are auto killed offstage at any percent

 

[Player -0]

I think people say it's about even.

 

[CyberZixx]

marth sucks vs fox in this game

I'm curious why you think this. I know the stage list favors fox heavily in the match up in PM but do you think that has that great an effect on the match up?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm curious why you think this. I know the stage list favors fox heavily in the match up in PM but do you think that has that great an effect on the match up?

yeah that pretty much nailed it. 10/10

 

[foxygrandpa]

I still dont really think fox is broken. I main sheik in melee, and I could handle the fox matchup with sheik, but in my opinion, zelda has a near even matchup with fox. She sets up really hard on him for lightning kicks, dins limit mobility (only slightly if placed right), neutral b is good for escaping pressure, and the teleport is really fast for approaching/retreating, and its usable out of shield. Its probably not completely even on fox, but its certainly not as difficult as it is with some other characters.

Falco is definitely even on fox though, mario is pretty solid, and diddy's new banana tripping things are certainly annoying for a fox player to deal with if they dont adapt correctly.
Roy stands a better chance vs fox in this than marth does, since stages are so negative in the matchup for marth.

 

[GeZ]

Well think about it, m2k can pretty much bring the full potential of fox out. Armada, while not being able to do the same, is a lot closer than any other pit player, when it comes to reaching the full potential of the character. m2k has some experience in the MU and armada has the experience as well. I realize the level of experience does differ, but for Armada to preform so convincingly against m2ks fox, that has to say something about the MU.
Having chain grabs, gimps, reliable kill moves/setups, good normals(i think?), (etc) plus what was done in several matches at apex 2014, should show all the foxes out there, this MU isn't completely in our favor or at least not free, if anything, it could be inching in pits favor.
imo this MU should be 50:50 at the least
It could be like lordling said 55:45 pits favor
Then again, m2k and armada are so above us... meh

I disagree with this post. I think that M2K's best character is Shiek, on account of her lending herself to his super rudimentary playstyle. That's actually really my problem with M2K, is how he plays. Not the stalling or the cheese, but his peerless focus of basics. It sounds weird to a lot of players because he's one of the best Smash players ever, but it makes a lot of sense to anyone who understands how growth as a player works in Smash. But since I'm working on a Smash basics guide right now and I don't want to blow my load prematurely let the cat out of the bag, I'll succinctly say that M2K only plays Shiek to her full potential. Every other character he plays well, he plays as if he was adverse to their potential.

Also Fox has bad matchups. Saying he doesn't is silly as hell. If we're assuming a theoretical level of prowess on both players parts, their are plenty of characters that can take advantage of his comboability and 0 to death him for free. If we're speaking in more realistic realms, that ****ing point still stands because fox is made of Wombus Combonium. Seriously, competent players playing characters with solid combo games should be able to kill off of any starter. And while Fox does own the neutral game with his movement, unlike theoretical realms, actual players have actual habits which can actually be punished.

It's crazy, I know.

 

[Armada]

You do underrate the fact that Fox aswell have a VERY good punishgame.
People overall don't punish hard enough.

The further the metagame progress the less of a weakness it is to be a "spacie that gets 0 to death at all times".
The neutral game is a fact for the most part, it's set in stone even if humans can get better, how good this chars are in the neutral. The punish game is just overall very bad level at. The further you get into the punishgame the more you will realize that the gap is way smaller than you most likley currently think

 

[tripwire]

**** Armada just JC Up-Smash made my Fox way better the second I started using it to punish when ever I could.

Edit- I just wanna say Pit vs Fox isn't free either way. Fox can waveshine over the banna to grab it. I wonder if he could combo to GT to Upsmash?

 

[Kaoculus]

thoughts on mewtwo in this mu?

 

[Nausicaa]

You do underrate the fact that Fox aswell have a VERY good punishgame.
People overall don't punish hard enough.

The further the metagame progress the less of a weakness it is to be a "spacie that gets 0 to death at all times".
The neutral game is a fact for the most part, it's set in stone even if humans can get better, how good this chars are in the neutral. The punish game is just overall very bad level at. The further you get into the punishgame the more you will realize that the gap is way smaller than you most likley currently think

I love this, and have to say (though we've discussed it before in ways), using your comments about how people need to work on their punishment game, as a reference of a popular figure to get people to do it for their own benefit, capped with some elaboration or the basic logic behind how and why, has been one of the greatest tools towards helping people get better at Smash.

These kinds of comments are exactly why. So again, thanks for spamming it, more people should both spam it and work on it, especially given how nobody has really scratched the surface of it in any way in the entire PM community.

Details or insight on Mewtwo vs Fox?
When you hit the opponent, finish the Stocks.

 

[SuperNova!]

I'm really surprised that no one mentioned Lucario sooner. He can really punish Fox's somewhat predictable side-b and can take advantage of his fast falling in so many ways. I do better against Fox with Lucario than I do with any other character. I'm not saying Lucario has an especially good match up, but he does better than a lot of characters.

 

[Aidebit]

I don't think anyone can really counter Fox, but Lucario has given me trouble before.

We need a shortening for 'Armada's Pit', ArmPit, perhaps?

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm curious why you think this. I know the stage list favors fox heavily in the match up in PM but do you think that has that great an effect on the match up?

50:50 matchup in melee
In Melee, Marth gets FD in bo5 set

In PM, he doesn't.
In PM, there are 10 dreamlands.

 

[KariteSama]

the only one i might take of my list is ivysaur

Yes. Remove Ivy. She gets bopped by Fox. She cannot deal with his pressure at all. DD past backair=kill.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser certainly doesn't even go even with Fox in 3.0

Except on WW/Yoshi's

huehue

 

[TKD]

Maybe Pika/Mew2/MK.

MK's nair beats every aerial and he can edgeguard well.
M2 has an absurdly good recovery and good edgeguard/combo game.
Pika is already around even in Melee; even with skidturn hops available I don't think Fox should do much better in PM.

Oh yeah and I give whoever said Bowser poops on Fox the benefit of the doubt because JHR is winning pretty much every tourney he attends as Bowser, and he's bound to have put a beating on several foxes every time.

The game is widely unexplored but at the moment no character is considered a counter to Fox.

Mostly I feel like I just need to adapt to wreck people if I have a bit of trouble. But then again, I haven't played anyone good. All the other good players can't get away from Brawl/Melee for even a second LOL (and the better Brawl players have a steeper hill to climb when it comes to playing PM). Eddy did beat me in a friendly though. I was so disappointed! He doesn't even play PM at all and I can beat him in SSBM wtf

 

[Zimflare]

I know how this sounds but what about fox against Ike? I have only experience this twice (on netplay) but if I made one mistake it would be utilt ->utilt->(insert however many utilts necessary here) fsmash->dead. I secondary fox but I am still very familiar with him and do well against the characters that can juggle him (all of them lol) similar to this. When Ike can get an extremely powerful hit that's send you far offstage, and a giant disjointed sword to intercept your recovery, it seems a little difficult for fox.

 

[Player -0]

I know how this sounds but what about fox against Ike? I have only experience this twice (on netplay) but if I made one mistake it would be utilt ->utilt->(insert however many utilts necessary here) fsmash->dead. I secondary fox but I am still very familiar with him and do well against the characters that can juggle him (all of them lol) similar to this. When Ike can get an extremely powerful hit that's send you far offstage, and a giant disjointed sword to intercept your recovery, it seems a little difficult for fox.

Talk in the MU thread?

 

[Zimflare]

Talk in the MU thread?

Ok I will throw it in there too but it just seemed at this point that is sort of what this has turned into. I came here because it is titled "Who Wrecks Fox" and I was suggesting Ike. The only thing that comes from saying "Ike wrecks fox" is just people getting mad about me stating it as a fact which obviously doesn't help and doesn't go anywhere. That is why I made it into a question with some reasoning. But apparently that doesn't work either so let me rephrase: Ike wrecks fox wouldn't you guys say so? (Queue angry comments claiming my inexperience with fox and the metagame) But seriously can I get some insight?

 

[Foxy K]

Ok I will throw it in there too but it just seemed at this point that is sort of what this has turned into. I came here because it is titled "Who Wrecks Fox" and I was suggesting Ike. The only thing that comes from saying "Ike wrecks fox" is just people getting mad about me stating it as a fact which obviously doesn't help and doesn't go anywhere. That is why I made it into a question with some reasoning. But apparently that doesn't work either so let me rephrase: Ike wrecks fox wouldn't you guys say so? (Queue angry comments claiming my inexperience with fox and the metagame) But seriously can I get some insight?

I don't really think Fox struggles against Ike on paper, but I guess I can see how it would be a tough MU to play. Since you're Fox, getting hit once can easily lead to losing a stock, and it's pretty easy to get hit by Ike's hitboxes, since they're so big. He's not as slow as you think he would be, so it can be tough to figure out where his openings are and when to punish. And quickdraw is pure shenanigans. Still, you're faster, and if you can get in his face, he has like zero reversal options. But I could see how it would be a hard time.

 

[PajamasM]

Honestly, he has very few bad (If any) matchups, but your best bet is likely: Marth, Samus, Diddy, Meta Knight, Falco, Wolf, Mewtwo, and mayyyybe yoshi if a good yoshi player comes around who knows how to combo spacies i could see that being close to even

 

[HK_Spadez]

I dont know. As a lucario player I have to agree with darkgun on the lucario matchup. I feel like lucario is at least 50-50 if not 55-45 in his favor vs fox.

yeah cc shine is amazing and does well vs lucario but at low %'s u can up throw combo for at least ~50-70% into a possible kill.

 

[Praxis]

marth sucks vs fox in this game

Why? I can't see why.

Marth loses some edgehogging because of shorter edge holding time from a roll from the ledge.

Fox loses the "Marth killer" light shield SDI, has weaker lasers at range, no longer has invincibility from shine, and also loses some edgehogging because of the roll nerf.

I think the matchup should be pretty similar to Melee, with maybe a couple extra points in Marth's favor.

@ CyberZixx , with all due respect, i feel that your statement might be a bit closed minded. I mean thats pretty much what everyone says. they just take it from melee assume that fox is still on top. tier list wise, that can possibly be true, but to say that fox has no disadvantageous MUs in a carefully designed game streamlined for competitiveness and riddled with character buffs is a tad bold. Beyond that, I do have specific reasons why the characters ive listed can be even or possibly advantageous against him. you didnt really provide much evidence to anything though with your statement

That is a good point. I just don't see it seeing how dominant fox is in neutral. So a character needs a solid punish game on him so when they win neutral it can hurt. There are plenty of character like that in PM of course which makes Fox have a more even playing field. But I still see him being so darn powerful in neutal, able to overrun anyone else and his tools are broad, varied and work on most characters.

There's plenty of characters in PM that can kill Fox off of a touch and that he has a harder time killing. Simplest examples:

Mewtwo is very hard for Fox to combo due to floatiness, can escape from option coverage via up-B so can rarely get zero death'd, Fox has to read his teleport to finish the combo. Meanwhile, Mewtwo destroys Fox from a hit.

Pit and Fox wreck each other, but Pit's neutral game actually beats Fox, because Fox's lasers are now weak from a distance but Pit's arrows bring Fox in to combos.

 

[Praxis]

Honestly, he has very few bad (If any) matchups, but your best bet is likely: Marth, Samus, Diddy, Meta Knight, Falco, Wolf, Mewtwo, and mayyyybe yoshi if a good yoshi player comes around who knows how to combo spacies i could see that being close to even

I think Diddy vs Fox is pretty even. Fox can mess up Diddy's recovery bad, and Diddy beats Fox in neutral if Diddy has a banana, but Fox is so fast that Diddy cannot safely pull and obtain a banana without risk of getting hit. Fox's dash attack goes over grounded bananas, his reflector takes control of them, he gets more results out of a trip than Diddy does, and can slide with JC naner throws.

Both characters basically wreck each other from a touch.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Charizard is the anti-spacy. 'Nuff said.

 

[Lukingordex]

Villager wrecks Fox

 

[Praxis]

50:50 matchup in melee
In Melee, Marth gets FD in bo5 set

In PM, he doesn't.
In PM, there are 10 dreamlands.

Ah.

Oh well. As a Diddy player, people love counterpicking me to Yoshi's Island, so I'm going to hold on to my Marth second.

 

[Deleted member]

Why? I can't see why.

I think the matchup should be pretty similar to Melee, with maybe a couple extra points in Marth's favor.

all of fox's stuff is much easier
larger stages ruins marths autokills on fox
ban system makes it easy to eliminate stages with marth's CGs

thats basically all it takes. theres more than that but i'm lazy