Who wrecks fox?

[burntfish44]

Im not asking for another matchup thread i just want short simple - who has significant advantage over fox?

In brawl shiek did well vs him - does this hold true in PM?

 

[Quag]

Brawl is very different from Project M, VERY different, so no. Fox is still like his melee self, so with I've found so far there is nobody that wrecks him, but characters like Marth still have an even matchup vs. him.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Armada's pit

 

[BJN39]

Zelda wrecks Fox.










Then he uses Usmash.


But on a serious note, It doesn't seem like anyone really wrecks fox, at least, to whoever does, it has not been discovered yet.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Characters that probably go even with Fox:

Marth, Sheik, Pit (Armada says it's a hard match-up for pit, but Pit's stellar offstage game probably brings this to 55-45. USmash is always an issue though), Falco, Wolf. Meta Knight might come close, but I think that's probably 60:40. Mario has better odds than most. Past that I can't say.

 

[Mr.Random]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IHYEv9qxJE this just proves Fox isn't as good.

 

[Problem2]

I don't think Metaknight has an advantage against Fox. He's such big combo food and struggles with Fox's superior speed in the air.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IHYEv9qxJE this just proves Fox isn't as good.

No, that proves that Armada can beat Mew2King.

It illustrates that Pit can gimp Fox.

It proves nothing about Fox's power level. Sample size = 1 isn't really evidence for jack.

 

[Daftatt]

No, that proves that Armada can beat Mew2King.

It illustrates that Pit can gimp Fox.

It proves nothing about Fox's power level. Sample size = 1 isn't really evidence for jack.

Lordling is correct in his points, however back on topic, I think pit is a fantastic (maybe the best) counter pick against fox. His arrows (assuming you are good with them) are a REALLY strong edgeguarding technique. Another character (again, assuming you are pro at them) to counterpick against a fox is squirtle, just avoid using withdraw too much or you are going to get Smashed in the face.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lordling is correct in his points, however back on topic, I think pit is a fantastic (maybe the best) counter pick against fox. His arrows (assuming you are good with them) are a REALLY strong edgeguarding technique. Another character (again, assuming you are pro at them) to counterpick against a fox is squirtle, just avoid using withdraw too much or you are going to get Smashed in the face.

I've played a few squirtles who were decent and they defiantly aren't the answer the fox. I feel like he doesn't have the tools to take on a furry.

 

[Armada]

Lordling is correct in his points, however back on topic, I think pit is a fantastic (maybe the best) counter pick against fox. His arrows (assuming you are good with them) are a REALLY strong edgeguarding technique. Another character (again, assuming you are pro at them) to counterpick against a fox is squirtle, just avoid using withdraw too much or you are going to get Smashed in the face.

If Pit is the best pick against Fox this game would be way more unbalanced than I first thought (hopefully it's not that way).
Sheik/Peach/Puff is all great chars in Melee to edgeguard Fox but that does not make them great vs Fox.

From my experience in PM so far Pit feels like a GREAT char, just not so much vs spacies (not sure about vs Wolf though)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If you'd like myb input on it - Pit has an easier time with Wolf because Wolf's lasers are slower and more of a zoning/approach tool. They can also be clanked in addition to dodged and shielded. Wolf's recovery is better than Fox's, but he doesn't have Fox's insane up-smash and up-air isn't a killing move at all. Wolf also can't shine-spike. I am very sure Pit v/s Wolf is even.

You know, because Wolf is the only fair spacie in the game and is still one of the best chars.

 

[Armada]

Yeah from my experience playing vs Wolf he feels for sure way more even than the other two vs Pit.
Thanks for the answer =)

 

[didds]

I have a secret theory that mewtwo can handle all spacies pretty well, but I'm not explaining and I have like 4 posts so f me right. I also don't think squirtle does especially well against fox, but not as bad as a match against someone like marth

 

[G13_Flux]

i dont believe that fox has no disadvantageous MUs in PM. Theres just too many characters that got really good, and recieved streamlined movesets that handle fox's game very well. characters like metaknight, charizard, ivysaur, roy, and surprisingly game and watch are all characters that i think have great characteristics to deal with fox. I believe that all of those characters are at least even, with some like metaknight and zard possibly being advantageous.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

i dont believe that fox has no disadvantageous MUs in PM. Theres just too many characters that got really good, and recieved streamlined movesets that handle fox's game very well. characters like metaknight, charizard, ivysaur, roy, and surprisingly game and watch are all characters that i think have great characteristics to deal with fox. I believe that all of those characters are at least even, with some like metaknight and zard possibly being advantageous.

I feel like all the characters you listed, are negative against fox. MK would probably be the closet to even and could possible have the MU in his favor. But that's it.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Bowser takes a **** on fox. Everyone else Fox can beat without too much trouble

 

[CyberZixx]

I doubt Fox has any disadvantageous match ups. Maybe 55-45 to some random character but ore are even or close to even ones at least.

 

[G13_Flux]

the only one i might take of my list is ivysaur, now reconsidering it. the others i still hold there. those characters have solid approach options against fox, great priority against him, and can combo the hell out of him into kills much more efficiently than others can. fox might still have advantages here and there in the neutral game, but all of those characters have either great spacing or pressure options that set them up directly to segway into combos and kills.

i can go more in detail, but what is your reasoning for those characters being negative?

also yes, i think bowser might have to make that list as well. forgot about him.

@ CyberZixx , with all due respect, i feel that your statement might be a bit closed minded. I mean thats pretty much what everyone says. they just take it from melee assume that fox is still on top. tier list wise, that can possibly be true, but to say that fox has no disadvantageous MUs in a carefully designed game streamlined for competitiveness and riddled with character buffs is a tad bold. Beyond that, I do have specific reasons why the characters ive listed can be even or possibly advantageous against him. you didnt really provide much evidence to anything though with your statement

 

[CyberZixx]

@ CyberZixx , with all due respect, i feel that your statement might be a bit closed minded. I mean thats pretty much what everyone says. they just take it from melee assume that fox is still on top. tier list wise, that can possibly be true, but to say that fox has no disadvantageous MUs in a carefully designed game streamlined for competitiveness and riddled with character buffs is a tad bold. Beyond that, I do have specific reasons why the characters ive listed can be even or possibly advantageous against him. you didnt really provide much evidence to anything though with your statement[/quote]

That is a good point. I just don't see it seeing how dominant fox is in neutral. So a character needs a solid punish game on him so when they win neutral it can hurt. There are plenty of character like that in PM of course which makes Fox have a more even playing field. But I still see him being so darn powerful in neutal, able to overrun anyone else and his tools are broad, varied and work on most characters.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Hey guys Im trying to create an updated tier list since Apex and 3.0 being out for 2 months, I am putting in tourny results as before and trying to make a community tier list that reflects the most recent of opinions so if you guys could help and vote in the survey thatd be great! Im posting in a lot of threads so there can be more more opinions as that will reflect more accurately so please vote!

The first one has you rank each character individually 1-41, I arranged it to what I think so it can be easier but itll still take a little time.
<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GDPZ53B">Click here to take survey</a>

If you dont care as much and/or dont wanna spend as much time then this one is just rankings based on tier.
<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GD3NDM9">Click here to take survey</a>

Please don't just destroy it with joke rankings. Thanks!

 

[Deleted member]

i agree with armada that pit does poorly vs space animals. his punishment game vs them at low % is pretty unreliable.

oddly enough i think the best char vs fox so far is peach.

 

[dRevan64]

I still honestly marth has an advantage in neutral against fox, an advantage very slightly increased by the loss of invincibility on shine. The scale of this advantage is inversely proportional with the ability of fox to use platforms, however.

I don't know if that + marth's obviously strong punish game on fox makes the matchup explicitly in marth's favor, and I don't think I would've said that in melee either. I just know that it's non negligible.

i agree with armada that pit does poorly vs space animals. his punishment game vs them at low % is pretty unreliable.

oddly enough i think the best char vs fox so far is peach.

As opposed to melee? Elaborate?

 

[Strong Badam]

Bowser takes a **** on fox. Everyone else Fox can beat without too much trouble

against bad foxes yeah

@ dRevan64 : Marth vs Fox is even in Melee but Marth doesn't have a guaranteed FD pick in Bo5, DL64 is the only "super weak" stage that Marth has, in PM he's got like DL64/Dracula's Castle/YI:B/Lylat/a few others depending on stagelist.
And Marth doesn't win the neutral against Fox or he'd beat him in Melee. He punishes harder but it's harder to get in.

 

[dRevan64]

against bad foxes yeah

@ dRevan64 : Marth vs Fox is even in Melee but Marth doesn't have a guaranteed FD pick in Bo5, DL64 is the only "super weak" stage that Marth has, in PM he's got like DL64/Dracula's Castle/YI:B/Lylat/a few others depending on stagelist.
And Marth doesn't win the neutral against Fox or he'd beat him in Melee. He punishes harder but it's harder to get in.

Well at least in PM then it varies based on ruleset, Drac's wasn't allowed at apex for example so it didn't come into play as a factor. I think part of this question comes down to whether the mu question is discussed at a semi-theoretical level of gameplay where a marth is using his superior grounded movement basically flawlessly or in a more middling, average, etc level of play which is hard to discuss at all because what average play consists of is dubious at best. So working with the first assumption–
FD is commonly accepted as marth's best stage in the matchup because of marth's ridiculously strong punishes against fox. But that rationale fails to recognize that platforms aren't just something that gets fox out of combos, they're something that gives him an advantage in movement, because he gets on and off of them far faster than marth can. All other thing's being equal, a stage with platforms gives fox options against marth that he doesn't have on FD. But that advantage is limited. Platforms are still a marginalized stage positioning –to a variable degree, obviously using platforms on dream land or brawl yoshi's is way better than using them on fountain or wario ware–and when the fox uses them, he hurts himself because marth is still sitting (more likely dashing) on the ground, like a shark waiting to punish fox's decisions, and marth simply has faster movement options than fox in that position. Is that positional advantage easy to take advantage of? Not even remotely. But even more importantly, it's a hard place for a fox to be in, and he doesn't have too much of a choice but to use it since playing on the ground puts him in danger of being run down by a calculating marth player's movement pressure.

Combine this logic (mostly born from the melee MU, obviously) with the loss of shine invincibility and the weakening of laser camping although by no means removal of laser camping as an option, and I still give marth an edge in the matchup. It's still an incredibly challenging one, though, for both parties, and is probably one of the fairest matchups in the game. I just don't believe in a 50:50 that isn't a ditto, claiming a 50:50 means acknowledging that both sides have advantages without applying a hypercritical perspective to every one of those advantages.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

i think wolf won vs pit until the 2.6/3.0 buff (buffed the dthrow and grabrange=chaingrab), now pit wins.
and yhea, i have some experience in the matchup

i need more experience in the matchup to determine, but i feel like lucario has potential to do good vs fox

honestly though, fox is to powerful, in particular his NTSC usmash. due to really, really good recoveries and overall bigger stages (edgeguards/stage control aren't as big as it was in melee) having a garaunteed kill upwards is even more powerful then it was in melee

big thumps up to pmbr for nerfing his laser btw, that was like the best design choice ever. nerf it some more lol.

 

[Xenozoa425]

Fox obviously

 

[SSS]

There's not reallllly enough info to know this. Because Apex happened fifty people have said "Pit omg totally Pit raeps Fox Pit is best character nerf Pit plz". We'll have to see what develops.

 

[nessmaster1]

Im not asking for another matchup thread i just want short simple - who has significant advantage over fox?

In brawl shiek did well vs him - does this hold true in PM?

Gannon.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There's not reallllly enough info to know this. Because Apex happened fifty people have said "Pit omg totally Pit raeps Fox Pit is best character nerf Pit plz". We'll have to see what develops.

Well think about it, m2k can pretty much bring the full potential of fox out. Armada, while not being able to do the same, is a lot closer than any other pit player, when it comes to reaching the full potential of the character. m2k has some experience in the MU and armada has the experience as well. I realize the level of experience does differ, but for Armada to preform so convincingly against m2ks fox, that has to say something about the MU.
Having chain grabs, gimps, reliable kill moves/setups, good normals(i think?), (etc) plus what was done in several matches at apex 2014, should show all the foxes out there, this MU isn't completely in our favor or at least not free, if anything, it could be inching in pits favor.
imo this MU should be 50:50 at the least
It could be like lordling said 55:45 pits favor
Then again, m2k and armada are so above us... meh

 

[SSS]

Well think about it, m2k can pretty much bring the full potential of fox out. Armada, while not being able to do the same, is a lot closer than any other pit player, when it comes to reaching the full potential of the character. m2k has some experience in the MU and armada has the experience as well. I realize the level of experience does differ, but for Armada to preform so convincingly against m2ks fox, that has to say something about the MU.
Having chain grabs, gimps, reliable kill moves/setups, good normals(i think?), (etc) plus what was done in several matches at apex 2014, should show all the foxes out there, this MU isn't completely in our favor or at least not free, if anything, it could be inching in pits favor.
imo this MU should be 50:50 at the least
It could be like lordling said 55:45 pits favor
Then again, m2k and armada are so above us... meh

But let's not forget, Armada knows the Fox matchup REALLY WELL, while M2K didn't know the Pit matchup that well. And M2K sometimes has hard times adapting to matchups that should be in his favor but that he's not used to ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0 ). So it's hard to say.

 

[dRevan64]

But let's not forget, Armada knows the Fox matchup REALLY WELL, while M2K didn't know the Pit matchup that well. And M2K sometimes has hard times adapting to matchups that should be in his favor but that he's not used to ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0 ). So it's hard to say.

That was not an MU that m2k wasn't used to.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That was not an MU that m2k wasn't used to.

This.

Plus, m2k has played the fox v pit MU before, so he isn't a total stranger to what pit can do or what to do to him. I'm sure there is a good amount of Armada's pit on the interwebs. Armada(pit) v (fox/falco)mango videos have been out for while, so he probably has seen those and got some idea on what this character is capable of, especially against a player of mango's caliber. And yes I know, he doesn't play PM, but this mango we're talking about.

I feel like m2k knows more on the MU then he is given credit for.

 

[Nemiak temp]

*nonsense about nonsense*

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

??
Who let that in here

 

[Deleted member]

marth sucks vs fox in this game

 

[Strong Badam]

Strong Bad once again being a douchebag. Most toxic PoS for this community yet he's ****ing praised by all of you. Get the **** out of the BR scumbag

You should really get used to people disagreeing with you and not throwing a fit when it happens. You're new and you're going to be wrong a lot. Everyone goes through it dude. "It's everyone's fault but mine" doesn't work here. Bowser's biggest weakness is a lack of mobility, and Fox happens to be among the 3 fastest characters in the game and has a godlike kit to compliment it. Bowser certainly doesn't even go even with Fox in 3.0, and if you ask most Bowser players before he didn't even in 2.0-2.6.

 

[Nemiak temp]

You should really get used to people disagreeing with you and not throwing a fit when it happens. You're new and you're going to be wrong a lot. Everyone goes through it dude. "It's everyone's fault but mine" doesn't work here. Bowser's biggest weakness is a lack of mobility, and Fox happens to be among the 3 fastest characters in the game and has a godlike kit to compliment it. Bowser certainly doesn't even go even with Fox in 3.0, and if you ask most Bowser players before he didn't even in 2.0-2.6.

*some more nonsense*

 

[Strong Badam]

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never stated you were bad, I stated that the matchup is only in Bowser's favor at low levels of play, which obviously isn't relevant to the topic at hand, or any important topic for that matter. Sorry if you came to your conclusions through personal experience as a Fox player, but I had no way of knowing that.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Why do I even ****ing post here.