Who jab works on (for real this time, with explanation!)

[Supermodel From Paris]

I tested today who the jab works on and who it doesn't. This has been done before but I added some more characters to the list today by using a technique (well, not really a technique) that makes it work a little better. Basically, if you're ever right next to the opponent and you jab and simply hold the A button, the jab will connect every time, all the time, unless they are ducking when hit with the first jab, on the following characters:

Mario
Luigi
Peach
Yoshi
Zelda
Toon Link
Samus
Pit
Ice Climbers (yes, it's true, but occasionally nana powershields for no reason. Dark.pch and I could not figure that out)
ROB
Kirby
Olimar
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Ness
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch

Keep in mind most of these only work at very close range. For instance, if you jab Ice Climbers and they're far enough away, you will get grabbed and die.

Jab 3 connects to every character:

1. Out of a tech roll
2. after a ledge attack
3. after a get-up attack
4. If they are tilting the control stick "up" when hit
5. After a dash attack (HOLD A)

 

[Zero]

No MK, Snake or Falco make me sad.

Good stuff though.

 

[solecalibur]

I thought Squirtle could jab out?
I think he has a 1 frame jab (or something fast) if I remember correctly

edit - lucario, toon link and pit make me =D

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He has to DI down.

Most of these characters can actually escape/shield/counter you if they are fast enough.

Marth, for example can always up+b out. Maybe Mario, too.

Squirtle can jab out if he DIs down.

Most everyone can PS if they are ducking when hit by jab 1.

This is just a list of characters who can't, without DI, hold R to powershield jab 3.

 

[Nefarious B]

well this is really useful, i remember wondering why it would only work sometimes on Pit, Toonlink, Ivy, and Olimar, guess this explains why.

 

[Deathfox30]

Jab 3 connects to every character:

5. After a dash attack (HOLD A)

At any percent? DA > Jabx3

 

[Zero]

Not any percent, probably low-mid percents.

 

[SuSa]

Just in case someone tries bringing it up...


Zamus having a frame 1 jab means DI'ing down to avoid the rest of the jabs would take inhuman reaction speeds. (And I'm assuming the 2nd and 3rd jabs come out within 10~ frames...)

:leek:

 

[Zero]

To DI the first one down, you need to already be holding down. No question about it.

You can definitely DI the 2nd > 3rd hit on reaction though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DI on jab 2 has no effect on their ability to powershield jab 3.

 

[solecalibur]

Olimar still seems 100% even with DI, I've only gotten them to DI away when I jab
Jeeze Olimar MU is so fun knowing your jab is a workable thing

 

[Judo777]

ur data confuses me. Squirtle should not matter if he has a frame 1 jab or not. Cause he has a frame 1 shield too. Same with marth unless ur jab picks him up off the ground. If they DI down and can shield than its not legit and if they can't then it should be for most cases.

eh nvm i didn't read the other posts im gonna leave mine up tho

 

[FIERCE]

From what I recall as well, doesn't Jab 3 connect on DDD after his Up tilt no matter the range?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I was hoping this'd work on D3 : (

 

[Dakpo]

i was getting naired out of my 2nd jab by illmatic's peach at mlg

 

[Zero]

looool that's BS. **** pichi

 

[FIERCE]

LOL Dakpo! And you beat my lovely little Oats </3

Peach's Nair beats the jab, but I'm not sure if it does 'all' the time. I think at lower percents when her hitsun is low is when I try to avoid the jab. Then just camp with short hop Neutral + B

 

[Dakpo]

was oats the lucas?

 

[Zero]

Too Good Oats Pro <3 <3 <3

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Dakpro, next time I see you, mm. For PK Love/Pride/$5/whatever. <3

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpro....hahaha legit nickname, thanks yea sure. GGs

 

[z00ted]

wahahahahhahahhahahaha

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nair is 3 frames. Jab comes out in 3 frames. Aerials beat ground moves. So yeah, I could see that.

Dark.pch does it sometimes by accident. I think at higher percents it stops working.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Tested naring out of jab with Peach. It doesn't work, unless they are in the air when hit or SDI up. This is a good thing, since the match-up is already 65:35 in Peach's favor. lol

 

[culexus・wau]

test luc dair.

its 4f

but I seem to get out of jab half the time with it :S

 

[Zero]

Tested naring out of jab with Peach. It doesn't work, unless they are in the air when hit or SDI up. This is a good thing, since the match-up is already 65:35 in Peach's favor. lol

r o f t l

 

[solecalibur]

oh boy it here it goes

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If the best Peach he's played is zxv I'm not going to bother

<3 zero

 

[Zero]

You should bother with explaining yourself because it just makes you look like you're overreacting.

but w/e, zxv da bess

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach has the game's best shield pressure and you don't have a grab. Peach has shield pressure strings that can literally assault you until your shield breaks unless you roll. Rolling is very easy to read and react to and will get you hit. If Peach attacks your shield and knows how ZSS ticks, there is a very good chance you will eventually eat a hit. When Peach hits you, it means a minimum of 15% damage (being nice, especially at low percents). Thus, you shouldn't really shield. I think Nick Riddle has said this much.

Not being able to shield in a match-up where a character can take you from 0% to 60% in a single guaranteed string is a really big deal.

So, you have to camp. Your camping game isn't really as good as Peach's. The saving grace is that she must pull turnips which takes a while and is punishable. The bad news is any Peach that pulls a turnip when you're close is an idiot, so that's out. All you can really do is space side-b and paralyzer shot (except paralyzer shot sucks) outside of turnip range and hope she makes an error. If you PS+walk to get close, she'll jab you. You can't really beat this option since you'll have been shielding. Her jab out-ranges yours, and leads into about a dozen combos and mix-ups, all of which are just going to lead to you having to roll away, because you can't grab.

Her float game is air-tight because she can cancel everything to a jab making it impossible for you to punish because you don't have a grab. If the Peach is a bad player, you can utilt her between dairs, but not really. If the Peach is a bad player, you can nair her float approach (HAHAHA I can' tremember the last time Dark.pch approached me with a float from a position I could actually punish with nair). If the Peach is a bad player, you can uair her from the ground. All of these things only work when the Peach player makes a tactical error though, and they aren't reliable.

Yes you can juggle her, except all she has to do is hold away from the stage and recover low, you can't really do anything about that except hope she doesn't sweetspot the ledge.

None of this even touches on the fact that it's very easy for Peach to gimp ZSS if she is forced to recover low. You have to recover high, which means attempting to land on the stage. ZSS' landing game is godawful and Peach is amazing at punishing it.

Bad match-up is bad.

 

[z00ted]

Tested naring out of jab with Peach. It doesn't work, unless they are in the air when hit or SDI up. This is a good thing, since the match-up is already 65:35 in Peach's favor. lol

L.O****ingL where do i start

 

[Nefarious B]

Of all matchups I think Peach is one of the ones that I least wish I had a real grab in. Her bair and fair are safe from grabs anyways, and her dair obviously isn't getting grabbed. NO ONE should shield much against Peach, shield pressure is what she does. ZSS shouldn't be shielding much anyways since she can outspace almost everyone.

I duno, I'm not really seeing your points SFP. It is a hard matchup, mentally, I def agree. I don't see it being worse than 45-55. Credentials: Raz, Bone, Fierce, you (online), Lancestern

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS wins the MU.
Meh.
Turn away from Peach, and approach with SHs?
**** shielding.
Throw veggies back.
Kill her dead first.
Yup.

 

[z00ted]

lol... Nick just summed everything up with "**** shielding"

 

[Zero]

Someone needs to steal the General Discussion topic off Hence so they can change the topic to "**** shielding".

 

[Zero]

Peach has the game's best shield pressure and you don't have a grab.

um, hello Metaknight?

Peach has shield pressure strings that can literally assault you until your shield breaks unless you roll. Rolling is very easy to read and react to and will get you hit.

Stop respecting Peach's pressure and do something other than sit in shield getting *****. downB OOS invincible on frame 5. Since every other character can shieldgrab her, it should work...

Why are you on the ground? If Peach's shield pressure is so fantastic, why are you willingly putting yourself in a situation where you are playing her game and not yours?

If Peach attacks your shield and knows how ZSS ticks, there is a very good chance you will eventually eat a hit. When Peach hits you, it means a minimum of 15% damage (being nice, especially at low percents). Thus, you shouldn't really shield. I think Nick Riddle has said this much.

Not being able to shield in a match-up where a character can take you from 0% to 60% in a single guaranteed string is a really big deal.

Um, hello Meta Knight? Hello Marth?

So, you have to camp. Your camping game isn't really as good as Peach's. The saving grace is that she must pull turnips which takes a while and is punishable. The bad news is any Peach that pulls a turnip when you're close is an idiot, so that's out.

I think you're forgetting our side b range is quite large. Factored in with a jump, you can reach quite a long way away.

All you can really do is space side-b and paralyzer shot (except paralyzer shot sucks) outside of turnip range and hope she makes an error. If you PS+walk to get close, she'll jab you. You can't really beat this option since you'll have been shielding. Her jab out-ranges yours, and leads into about a dozen combos and mix-ups, all of which are just going to lead to you having to roll away, because you can't grab.

Instant catching + tossing is the business against item projectiles.

Her float game is air-tight because she can cancel everything to a jab making it impossible for you to punish because you don't have a grab. If the Peach is a bad player, you can utilt her between dairs, but not really. If the Peach is a bad player, you can nair her float approach (HAHAHA I can' tremember the last time Dark.pch approached me with a float from a position I could actually punish with nair). If the Peach is a bad player, you can uair her from the ground. All of these things only work when the Peach player makes a tactical error though, and they aren't reliable.

Why are you on the ground? Seriously. Stay the **** away and space your aerials, like you're meant to do against every other character. SHFFing aerials and fakeouts is great.

Yes you can juggle her, except all she has to do is hold away from the stage and recover low, you can't really do anything about that except hope she doesn't sweetspot the ledge.

Fair enough I guess. You could try to gimp her I guess, for fun.

None of this even touches on the fact that it's very easy for Peach to gimp ZSS if she is forced to recover low. You have to recover high, which means attempting to land on the stage. ZSS' landing game is godawful and Peach is amazing at punishing it.

Mix up your recovery more? Why don't you downB flip a turnip?

Bad match-up is bad.

Like the rest of us, I don't see it.

NO ONE should shield much against Peach, shield pressure is what she does. ZSS shouldn't be shielding much anyways since she can outspace almost everyone.

Pretty much this.

**** shielding.
.

this matchup in 2 words.