Which would be worse for Falco?

[Varist]

If his D-air were a Meteor Smash
or
If he had Fox's laser shine

if i'm stupid and it ends up being really dumb and one-sided i'm going to change it.
yes i stole the format, preemptively go away hangrybax.

edit: discuss. because you need to be told.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Lasers. The dair being a meteor would not inhibit his pillaring and combos, but changing lasers would make virtually every situation worse.

 

[Varist]

explain why meteor canceling a dair wouldn't stop his combos.

 

[JonnyW]

If Falco had Fox's lasers he would be way worse. There goes 50% of his approach.

 

[Varist]

approach into what? his combos can be jump-canceled now. reasoningggg.

 

[JonnyW]

approach into what? his combos can be jump-canceled now. reasoningggg.

His approach to the opponents character. Stun lasers make the opponent either have to 1)Shield 2)Dodge/jump/spotdodge/runaway 3)powersheild. By switching his stun lasers to regular non-stun lasers you take away the pressure that Falco can put on just by SHL'ing. its more than his approach to though, it would take away from his ability to camp too. Switching his dair to a meteor attack instead of a spike would not be THAT noticeable because he would still be able to combo pretty much the same. (It would be way easier to get out of pillars though) You would immediately notice a different fight if Falco had fox's lasers instead while switching the dair would seem pretty much the same.

 

[Varist]

The fight would be different because Falcos would be approaching with nair. The potential's still the same, but the ease of execution is different. Taking away lasers puts him in line with every other character. Taking away dair ruins combos. because seriously, how's he going to punish someone who jumps out of his dair? use his broken up-air?

i just don't see how you think his combos wouldn't change.

 

[choknater]

wowwww falco would be sooooo *** without his lasers

 

[Varist]

definitely. but is limiting approach options (which hax says doesn't matter anyway LOL) worse than neutering combo ability?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lasers.

/thread

 

[Varist]

ALL RIGHT LASER HARD-ON ******S.

how about that, damn.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

Lol falco would be soo gay with a meteor dair. Forcing people to use their jump? Sooooooooo gay.

 

[Varist]

fgdfs, they don't have to use their jump, they get to. or their up-b.

 

[Roneblaster]

I think falcos dair change would be worse than lazer change.

But shine change worse than dair change.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't think the shine change would be that bad, at least at high level play. Combos would be weaker, but mostly just different. I'm sure falco could make fairly decent use of the shine onstage. You'd probably see mediocre falcos never missing an edgeguard lol.

With the dair, not sure. I could see it differing with a particular player's style. I could see mango saying **** lasers i want my regular ntsc dair, while maybe lambchops would want lasers.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I think the dair change could be neat. Dair->read the meteor cancel->double jump nair/dair/whatever.

 

[Max?]

Falco with Fox's shine would be pretty jank. He can still use Utilt to launch, so his pillaring wouldn't change that drastically. And now you have Fox's shine, which opens up a whole different world of possibilities.

Falco without laser's would still be very good, he just wouldn't get in as free as he can now.

 

[udhaya_ko]

May be his attitude to be really annoying.

 

[Geenareeno]

I didn't read the thread but I want to point out that Falco wouldn't have a lot of the same options as Fox does with his shine becuase his jump is slower. The height of his sh and dj would also **** things up.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

the dair wouldnt be nearly as bad as losing lasers

 

[Varist]

I noticed the same thing. Can't waveshine with slow-*** Falco. Can't even shinegrab probly. And it'd be a lot harder to shine gimp people because his dash -> shorthop isn't as quick, nor does it go as far, as Fox's.

so he'd lose combo flexibility. He'd keep pillaring though. that's pretty swag.

 

[Massive]

If Falco had fox's shine he could dair > shine > shorthop laser > repeat.

That'd be pretty cool to see, actually.

 

[Varist]

i wonder if shine would hitstun seamlessly into a sh laser. Otherwise we'd see a **** ton of pseudo-buffered power shields.

 

[crush]

If falco had foxes shine I think shine sh side b laser reset up smash three hit fair down tilt bair would work against fox DI'ing in at a 23 degree angle with the wind blowing in the direction opposite to what direction shine is sending fox on dream land.

 

[Varist]

a rarity; i lol'd.

that has legitimacy.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I noticed the same thing. Can't waveshine with slow-*** Falco. Can't even shinegrab probly. And it'd be a lot harder to shine gimp people because his dash -> shorthop isn't as quick, nor does it go as far, as Fox's.

so he'd lose combo flexibility. He'd keep pillaring though. that's pretty swag.

falco can shinegrab .-.
he can waveshine too... just not as well..

anyways, loosing lasers would be worse. falco's dair would just be like the stomp. still combos into random stuff. and lasers make laser-> fsmash.

falco is a bit to slow to be able to laser camp and such like fox does anyways.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Falco's shinegrab is actually really powerful. He can put people who are comfortable in shield out of position, and it's a brilliant mixup that characters like Sheik, Peach, Marth, and the spacies themselves (characters with very strong OoS options) have to worry about. Which frees Falco up to do more intensive shield pressure, once they're worrying about the shinegrab.

tl;dr: Falco can shinegrab, and it *****.

 

[Varist]

i think you have the wrong idea about what i meant by shinegrabbing. i meant shining someone unshielded, JCing the shine via JC grab. AFAIK Falco's jumpsquat is too slow for that.

 

[Blistering Speed]

i think you have the wrong idea about what i meant by shinegrabbing. i meant shining someone unshielded, JCing the shine via JC grab. AFAIK Falco's jumpsquat is too slow for that.

IIRC, you CAN do this (with Falco's regular shine) in frame by frame conditions. Falco has better options from shine anyway though.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm fairly sure (Strong Bad can correct me if I'm wrong) that jumpsquat doesn't matter. If both Fox and Falco shine, and they both jump cancel the shine at the same time, and then input grab at the same time, then they will both execute at the same time.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the jumpsquat is the time in which Falco/Fox are squatting before they jump. So, in that time, you can press Z to grab, and since they are on the ground, they will begin a grab. Falco's longer jumpsquat only means that he has more leeway for shine grabbing than Fox.

Actually, I don't think it's possible to shinegrab anyone who isn't shielding. Don't the shines send them too far away for that?

 

[Bones0]

I am just LOLing at all the misinformation in this thread. Fox's JC grab is faster than Falco's apparently. XD


Krush owns this thread.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Wait, is what I'm saying wrong, Bones? Or is it right? As a Falco main, I trust your word.

 

[crush]

I thought you could jc shine/grab/usmash/bake cookies at any frame in ur jumpsquat?

am just stupid maybe? or not?

 

[Bones0]

Wait, is what I'm saying wrong, Bones? Or is it right? As a Falco main, I trust your word.

I thought you could jc shine/grab/usmash/bake cookies at any frame in ur jumpsquat?

am just stupid maybe? or not?

You are both correct. If you had to wait until jump squat was finished, JCed grabs would be just as hard as multishining. LOL

 

[crush]

Lol I never needed to ask that question, I just felt like it since I cam here by namesearching "krush"

Normally since lots of people (kage) use the verb crush while posting I usually just namesearch "crush stop trolling" or "crush stop posting"

 

[KirbyKaze]

LAWL skimmed the OP. I didn't realize you changed it.

I think Falco with Fox's shine would be really good because one of his biggest issues is setting up a KO move at the end of his combos. His combo tree changes, but in a lot of respects I think it actually improves. Shine > d-smash / f-smash on Sheik & co. seems pretty cruel. SHFFL Dair > Shine > SHFFL Dair > Shine > SHFFL Dair > Shine > Shine > smash attack of choice also seems kind of cruel on anyone he can waveshine combo. You can even continue the combo with up tilt if you want, which is kind of bonkers. I guess his pressure gets a bit worse because of his slow jump but... I think people would just shine-grab and retreat aerial even more than they currently are to counter that, or just camp more.

I dunno. Call me crazy, but in a lot of respects this Falco actually seems slightly better to me than the current one against a lot of characters. Having an automatic 40% flatland combo that transitions into an air-combo is pretty bonkers. His game vs Fox gets worse, though. But against everyone but Fox (and maybe Puff to a small extent) I think he actually improves LOL.

edit: The more I think about that kind of Falco and all the little positional traps he would have, the more disturbingly good it sounds. Waveshine the opponent so they're close to the edge and then dairing them would be such a stupid trap for killing Marth and several other characters. I'm gonna stop editing this here but like... wow that's stupid good. So many doors open for him...

Okay, so yeah. Since I think Falco with Fox's shine might actually be better than current Falco and Falco with MCable dair is obviously worse than current Falco my opinion is pretty obvious LOL.



Laser thing is here:

Lasers by far. The other two don't even affect him that much as a character because they just alter his punishment game. All his fundamentals remain the same, the only difference is that his combo execution becomes different, and his edgeguard algorithms change slightly.

That said, for his combos alone a Falco without stunning lasers would not drop below top of mid tier. I'm pretty sure that Falco is still better than like Ganon. Falco's not actually THAT slow, it's just his speedy movement is awkward; his walk is significantly faster than his run and he therefore needs to WD to build momentum first to get moving. This is a pretty big handicap, but more because it telegraphs his movement than actual speed issues IMO.

His defense without stun lasers is still pretty decent. CC shine, CC d-smash, shine oos, etc. would still be amazing against low-range aerial approaches and stuff. He's also got his retreat AC bair. It's not as good as it used to be, but it's still a pretty good mixup. He would still be able to shoot them from a distance to force people to leave certain zones too, just not as well as before (and he couldn't approach if the opponent remained in the zone, which would make for pretty big playstyle differences).

His combos largely wouldn't change except his tech chase on the stage's ground level would be worse because in situations where roll away can't be followed directly, he wouldn't be able to shoot lasers to force them to auto-shield.

 

[Beat!]

anyone he can waveshine

How many would that be, though, considering his slow jump?

 

[crush]

7 3

 

[KirbyKaze]

How many would that be, though, considering his slow jump?

It's only 2 frames slower than Fox's...

I also think it goes further so I think the greater length would compensate the 2 frames but I'm not 100% on that one.

For sure he could do it to Peach, Sheik, Ganon, and Falcon though. I think shine > smash on Marth would probably fail (except maybe down smash) but I think he could probably do the shine > dair stuff.

 

[Beat!]

If we're talking waveshine-->dair combos, it's a 4 frame difference, since you jump at two different points during the combo. Still not a huge deal I guess, but it feels like it'd be getting to the point where it could prove to be pretty frame-tight against some characters.