Which of these buffs would be enough to make Bowser a tournament threat?

[Sp0nge]

I agree with him needing a combo breaking aerial. Fair having a faster startup would be good enough.

Air fortress should auto snap backwards. The fact that it doesn't means Bowser can't recover well against certain moves that turn him around (Sonic's back throw) so he can get edgeguarded even more easily. It also means you have to edgeguard with bair which is really annoying because fair has more range, but it'll make you face backwards.

I think just one followup from a throw would be good enough, even if it was early percents only. Like, up throw to fair should be guaranteed until 20% on average. If he had consistent follow ups then he would be too good considering how good his grab range is and how easily he can kill.

 

[Big Sean]

@ Sp0nge in cases like sonic backthrow just side b towards the stage and you are immediately turned around.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Big Sean I think Sonic's back throw should send himself offstage instead.

 

[Sp0nge]

@ Big Sean That's a really good idea, never thought about that. The only problem is that it has some end lag so you can't up b right away. But it's better than being down smashed at the ledge because you didn't sweet spot.

 

[S_B]

If he had consistent follow ups then he would be too good considering how good his grab range is and how easily he can kill.

I think it would take far more than just consistent grab followups for Bowser to be "too good".

His grab range may be amazing, but missing it leaves him wide open and it's not very hard to bait out.

That said, I'd still take ANY guaranteed grab followup over the 0 followups he has now...

Or, holy crap, if we had ONE 50/50 like Sheik.......

 

[Big Sean]

@ S_B you know about up throw -> fair right?

 

[Cassius.]

@ S_B my guy, what are you talking about? We do have a 50/50 LOL

The same way people escape Sheik's 50/50 (DI out/in, progresses to airdodge/jump away)

In fact I would say our 50/50 on paper is even better, considering there really are only two ways to DI UThrow. You either go up or forward. The only problem is that we are Bowser, of course.

 

[S_B]

@ S_B you know about up throw -> fair right?

Maybe it's wifi lag, but I've never been able to land that successfully: the opponent always seems to have time to jump away before I can hit them. :\

I'll try it some more when next I get a chance. What % should it work to on middleweights?

Also, do opponents get their double jump back if we grab them out of the air and they'd already used it? I know they didn't in Brawl in some cases (or even get Up+B back) and we could grab Sonic at the edge of the stage, release him, and he'd plummet helplessly to his death...

 

[Cassius.]

It's super easy dude. At 0 we have UThrow to NAir UAir and FAir . UThrow to FAir works until like 40 percent on everyone except floaters and fast fallers is like 60.

 

[TehMud]

I'd like see less lag on Firebreath. It feels way too unsafe right now. I use it now and then, but a slightly less endlag would help I think.

As for fortress I would like some super armor on the first few frames, similar to DK's Cyclone. It makes sense sense he is inside of a giant shell.

Most of all I'd like an easier way to land, maybe less landing lag on dair? I'm not really sure of what could help without being silly.

As for Shell Armor ala USmash, I think a few frames here and there could help and not break him. UpB, Dair, and DSmash are what come to mind.

Overall I think a few minor tweaks would really help Bowser. I just don't know exactly which.

 

[S_B]

Weird, last I heard, we were looking into whether or not Uthrow had its endlag reduced to the point where we could do this and the general consensus seemed to be that it wasn't.

I'll definitely try it soon.

Overall I think a few minor tweaks would really help Bowser. I just don't know exactly which.

I'd definitely like FB to have its lagginess reduced. It's hugely risky in its current state because if it's shielded, the opponent has enough time to drop shield, run up to Bowser and punish in the time it takes for him to just close his friggin' mouth.

And we used to have invuln frames on the startup of fortress but we lost that for some reason. :\

 

[MagiusNecros]

Buff Fire Shot

 

[Jerodak]

I think at the moment the best way for Bowser to build damage is with landing traps, tech chases and snapbacks. Although the upthrow is still pretty good.

 

[Cassius.]

You don't see UThrow as a landing trap setup?

 

[Jerodak]

You don't see UThrow as a landing trap setup?

I do, but what I'm getting at is that learning to rack up damage in those situations is more valuable because it also teaches the player how to make the most of the advantage state. Meanwhile there isn't much to learn from doing a guaranteed follow up off a throw. It's useful, of course, but I believe the bulk of Bowser's potential lies elsewhere.

 

[S_B]

Also, I'd prefer it if all of Nairs hitboxes came out quickly. It might actually be able to break some combos on us that way...

 

[Jerodak]

This game's air to air combat is like playing Balloon Fighter or Joust. Except you win by being lower than your opponent.

 

[MrEh]

Dthrow should ground people like DK's headbutt.

The resets would be HARDCORE.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That might be a bit broken, lol.

 

[Jerodak]

Oh we suggesting Smash 4 minus stuff now?

Jab 1 should trip 100% of the time. Give fortress invincible start up and full auto guard. Give side b a strong hitbox that comes out when the grab whiffs but still let it auto cancel. Put full shellguard on down smash, buff it's damage, and give it an obnoxious vacuum windbox.

 

[Cassius.]

It'd actually be hilarious if DThrow became a Snake-esque setup, since he flattens everyone.

It should just leave them there lmao

 

[Jerodak]

It'd actually be hilarious if DThrow became a Snake-esque setup, since he flattens everyone.

It should just leave them there lmao

This could work if the FAF was sped up. Otherwise they could probably mash and win. I wonder if it would be techable.

 

[S_B]

I was pondering what it would be like if down throw was a genuine kill throw, but it actually just sent people very far at an angle of like, 15-30°.

You would want to use it primarily at the edge, facing the blast zone, as you'd set them up for some decent edgeguarding if nothing else, but you wouldn't want to use it mid stage because they'd likely be able to DI down and tech it.

 

[Cassius.]

So it would be like Wolf's DThrow. I think Bowser would prefer a tech chase setup over that though.

Regardless, either one of those would be pretty interesting to have

 

[MrEh]

That's such a hilarious thing though. A throw that doesn't set up into guaranteed kills, but sets up into resets. (because Heavyweight and all)

Imagine Dthrow grounding someone. Your opponent doesn't mash, and you SH Klaw them when they pop out. GLORIOUS.

 

[Jerodak]

That does sound pretty cool to be honest. And If you think about it, Yoshi's egg lay basically does the same thing.

 

[pitfall356]

Only problem with that is the timing. If they get up too fast you won't be able to attempt another grab due to how that works in this game. It's kinda annoying that klaw counts as a grab. Like, I get it, it technically is a grab, but imagine being able to combo a grab into klaw.


So I've done some thinking lately, and I thought I'd point out firebreath. When you catch someone in it point blank, how much damage do you usually do? I tend to deal 13% at the MINIMUM. Usually I get away with 15-17, and 20 on rare occasions. Firebreath is actually pretty powerful, it's just a little... Risky. Usually I can get punished after ending the move despite ending it right as they're pushed as far away as possible.

 

[Jerodak]

@ pitfall356 sometimes you might want to hold the fire a bit longer than usual. It's a decent mix-up to the punish timing; ending it early can have similar results.

 

[S_B]

Dair could totally have autoguard and still not be broken though. Usmash has it, so the precedent is there. Dair would still be hella punishable, so why not? I personally would like the autoguard addition just for consistency's sake.

I was thinking about this recently and I would absolutely LOVE for this to be the case.

This would negate one of Sheik's primary kill confirms on Bowser (the 50/50) by making it dangerous to chase Bowser into the air.

The startup of Dair moves Bowser upward, meaning that it already helps to move him out of the way of Sheik's attack. If it had that one autoguard, though, nothing Sheik does to us would actually be a threat (unless Sheik's entire lower body is intangible during her Uair, which it might be).

Then, Sheik would be relying upon bouncing fish and sweetspotted platform Usmashes to KO Bowser.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Autoguard should be present at the start of all shell attacks which is like what 4? Up Smash, Dsmash, Dair and Whirling Fortress.

And if you call it a Fortress it should damn well be impregnable.

 

[TehMud]

I'd agree with the shell armor thing. I feel Dair should really have some Super Armor, especially since it doesn't stop going like most Dairs that thrust downward. It's also super punishable upon landing and Bowser already has some trouble landing.

And with Fortress, Bowser's inside of his shell. A gigantic spiked shell. It shouldn't be so easy to break him out of it.

And with Dsmash again he's inside his shell. I feel a little armor at the start wouldn't hurt.

Most of all though the ending lag on Netural B really needs to be shortened. It already loses power and has to recharge. I feel it should be a more useful tool. Even used at a good range it does little damage and the opponent can still punish since it takes so long for Bowser to close his mouth.

 

[Xandercosm]

+: necessary -: not necessary +-: maybe

• Decrease nair landing lag +
• Decrease fair landing lag -
• Decrease start up time of aerial side b to match that of grounded side b -
• Decrease end lag of dash attack +
• Decrease end lag of missed grab/dash grab +
• Reduce base knockback of up throw (so it becomes a combo throw at low percents) +
• Reduce end lag and base knockback of down throw (so it becomes a combo throw at low percents) +
• Increase knockback growth of forward or back throw +-
• Improve recharge rate of fire breath +
• Reduce the decrease rate of fire breath -
• Reduce the startup and end lag of fire breath +
• Add hitboxes at the end of the fire breath animation (so the last few flames actually damage the opponent +
• Increase hitstun caused by fire breath -
• Give downsmash a slight vacuum effect (like Ganondorf's utilt or Sheik's side b) -

Just my thoughts on this particular list of buffs.

 

[Jerodak]

I think there might be a misunderstanding on air klaw start up. The special itself isn't slower in the air. It's just that you have to get airborne in the first place. The only way that making the the start up match would be possible is if you either reduced jump squat by one frame and made klaw frame one in the air or took one frame off air klaw and made Bowser's jump frame one. Either change could cause some issues.

I should have brought this up sooner, sorry about the delay.

Edit: Gonna correct this before I get called out on it five years later or something. I made a mistake, please disregard everything I wrote in this post.

 

[C0rvus]

I would say copy PM Bowser, but that character is worse than Smash 4 Bowser atm lmao. What a sad mess.

Would love to see Klaw have a bigger hitbox and Bowsercides work as they should. Brawl/Melee Fortress would be amazing, but it's not happening, so invincibility would be nice. The rest is gravy, but a better Nair would save Bowser from a lot of dumb situations, and less crappy Fire Breath would be nice. Seriously, my friend plays Charizard and his Flamethrower is pretty much all-around better. It stinks.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Who knows maybe we can get up throw changed into the giga bowser version.

It kills pretty much at 110%.

Basically the current Charizard throw.

Pair that with pivot grab and that there is pure cash.

Either give us that or buff fire shot.

I like Fire Shot btw.

 

[Cassius.]

Buffing fire shot won't do anything important for us with how tournaments stand right now. I'd rather see improvements to his core functionality instead of custom moves that may never be used in a main event anymore lol

I really don't think we need a killing throw.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Then buff tough guy. Throw out the current mechanic and let it be Bowser is tough all knockback received is 20% less.

With any luck projectiles besides the big ones become a non issue.

Or simply make the crouch tg values the standard on bowser for every state.

 

[C0rvus]

20% reduced knockback while already being the heaviest character in the game? That's devilish. Honestly, Bowser would benefit from better landing options the most. That or Fortress being safer.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well Smooth lander would solve all our landing problems but that uses equips and if everyone popped on smooth lander nothing really changes and any openings we could exploit based on land lag disappear.

With TG I just want our unique mechanic to be good and or useful. Most cases it just hinders us.

We maybe get passive super armor on like 2 matchups for a specific type of attack which is really just negating hitstun based on weak knockback values.

 

[Xandercosm]

In my opinion, Bowser deserves reduced landing lag on almost all of his moves.