Which of these buffs would be enough to make Bowser a tournament threat?

[MagiusNecros]

I totally forgot to mention that Bowser's Dair has a spike box that lasts much longer than any other spike in the game. Do we really need it buffed?

You mean the first initial frames that only spikes on start up? Only really lasts as long as Dorf's.

Otherwise it's just a strong yet predictable attack.

 

[LRodC]

After some comparisons, Charizard's fire starts three frames sooner and ends 7 frames sooner. However, it doesn't have as much damage potential - it pushes enemies away more than Bowser's fire does and seems to decay faster. Zard is faster to change his angle while breathing, too.

The biggest difference is that Zard's fire ALWAYS flinches opponents if it damages them, while Bowser's fire doesn't flinch near the edge of it's range. Bowser's is better for damage output but it's too slow to recover and can be punished on hit. I would assume Zard's fire pushing enemies away further makes it harder to punish.

Wow, I knew about the flinch part but not the end lag or damage part. The end lag should definitely be reduced by a few frames then.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Endlag is short enough on Zard that after roasting them at the edge if they overshoot their recovery they can eat a Fsmash.

Bowser is unable to do this because of endlag.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah, Bowser's fire breath needs some work for sure...

 

[pitfall356]

The way that Bowser's fire works, what it needs is more range/less endlag, and perhaps extra hitstun as enemies near the edge of the range so that they can't punish it on hit. It deals a lot of damage if you can land it point blank, so honestly it's a good move. It just tends to trade, which sounds absurd. And if you whiff and they get behind you, may god have mercy.

But it's funny because you can wall out Jigglypuff who charges Nspecial by just breathing fire and pointing the tiny flames downwards. Hmm... I should run some tests on Sonic, Ike, and the Space Animals to see if I can pull off something similar...

 

[MagiusNecros]

You know if they gave the Fire Breath angling of Giga Bowser's Fire Breath I would be A okay with it.

 

[LRodC]

Trading speed for damage is fair, but it shouldn't be punishable on hit. That's just dumb. I'm okay with Zard's being faster if we have the damage advantage, as long as it's more safe.

Another thing I noticed is that Fire Breath's animation doesn't seem to match the hitboxes, especially at the tip. The actual move hitboxes are fine IMO, but the animation should be accurate.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If I'm right we can breathe on Sheik and get a nice Fair while we close our mouth

 

[MrEh]

Fire Breath is fine. You use it to bait defensive reactions and impossible punishes.

You usually never hold down the button.

 

[Xandercosm]

So basically all this thread is is us never coming to an agreement...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fire Breath is fine. You use it to bait defensive reactions and impossible punishes.

You usually never hold down the button.

I HOLD IT DOWN ;__;

 

[MagiusNecros]

I hold it down for all the damage.

But I usually use Fire Shot more for even more damage.

 

[S_B]

It's just so difficult trying to fix Bowser without breaking him.

I don't think it would be that hard at all: just give him a guaranteed kill followup off a throw and he's fine.

Because, yes, Bowser hits hard, but it's LANDING those hits that's the challenge, especially when the only non-punishable attack Bowser has is jab (and some characters can even punish THAT...).

Bowser has plenty of power. What he needs are a few more reliable ways to convert that power into kill confirms, and without overpowering him in casual play.

I think throw followups are, by far, the best way to do that because casual players don't know how to take advantage of them.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's really a bummer that balance patches are more centered around casual play most of the time even though no patch notes are provided and the actual changes are found by the competitive side of the game.

 

[Xandercosm]

It's really a bummer that balance patches are more centered around casual play most of the time even though no patch notes are provided and the actual changes are found by the competitive side of the game.

Yeah. They really have to stop being so stuck on catering 100% to the casuals...

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's just the unfortunate position Bowser is in. He can roflstomp anyone that directly challenges him in melee but he has to fight the world in a ranged battle.

And since he's so large he is subject to obscene land lag and grab cheese.

He not bad. But he isn't great either.

And online you can't always powershield everything like a lvl9 cpu because of bad latency. And one mistake could mean you losing half your health.

Despite supposedly being the most tanky character in the game.

If it was me I'd be taking a few elements from Giga Bowser. GB's ledge attack is insanely good. You need to check it out.

 

[pitfall356]

I HOLD IT DOWN ;__;

I'm with this one. Holding it down gives you some serious damage output when it lands. I usually snag 17-20 when I land it point blank.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'm with this one. Holding it down gives you some serious damage output when it lands. I usually snag 17-20 when I land it point blank.

The funny thing about it is Fire Breath on average will do more damage then Fire Roar ever will.

And Fire Shot my favorite Breath attack is only great if the opponent can't adapt to harassment if they don't have a projectile or just go over it.

The massive cooldown on Fire Roar and the pitiful damage it does makes it unviable and completely pointless.

Now if it destroyed any projectile and could save you then I might use it more. But it doesn't.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Back when customs were a thing, someone used Fire Shot and I reflected it with Zelda's neutral B and the graphic continues going through Bowser without actually hurting him.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Were you close range? Might not have transferred ownership.

 

[S_B]

He not bad. But he isn't great either.

On this subject, there's a term we've been using for a while that I can't help but take some issue with...

"Poke and Punish Gameplay™"

What character, to some extent, DOESN'T poke and punish? Every character throws out attacks in the hopes that something will land or that they can bait out an attack of some kind that they can then punish.

Am I missing something here? Is it really even worth calling that a kind of gameplay style...?

Or is this a polite way of saying Bowser has no approaches to speak of?

Oh, and just to hammer my earlier point home:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_s22BwxUOc

Now that DK has his guaranteed hoohaa, ZeRo considers him high tier and that he can "hang around with the top tiers" now.

This confirms my suspicions: Bowser is ONE kill confirm off of a throw away from no longer being mid to trash (since everything below B-tier is kinda amorphous...).

ZeRo's advice on fighting DK is awesome: "Camp him out!", which beats the strategy Bowser often gets used against him which is "get in his face and don't let up".

 

[Xandercosm]

On this subject, there's a term we've been using for a while that I can't help but take some issue with...

"Poke and Punish Gameplay™"

What character, to some extent, DOESN'T poke and punish? Every character throws out attacks in the hopes that something will land or that they can bait out an attack of some kind that they can then punish.

Am I missing something here? Is it really even worth calling that a kind of gameplay style...?

Or is this a polite way of saying Bowser has no approaches to speak of?

Oh, and just to hammer my earlier point home:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_s22BwxUOc

Now that DK has his guaranteed hoohaa, ZeRo considers him high tier and that he can "hang around with the top tiers" now.

This confirms my suspicions: Bowser is ONE kill confirm off of a throw away from no longer being mid to trash (since everything below B-tier is kinda amorphous...).

ZeRo's advice on fighting DK is awesome: "Camp him out!", which beats the strategy Bowser often gets used against him which is "get in his face and don't let up".

I ****ing love DK, by the way. But that's another subject.

I think we have to remember not to be too hard on ol' Bowser. Who knows? Maybe he'll get DK-like monster patch himself someday. We have to remember that he's a fine character, though. He just has his pitfalls like ALL characters. And, at the end of the day, are approaches really THAT important? I mean, they definitely are important. But, a character can still be good without them (I'm sort of looking at you, Luigi).

Bowser just needs tweaking. Which is really what this thread was originally about. Let's not bash him, let's try to figure out how he could be improved. And, really, he's not low tier. We need to at least get that straight...

 

[MagiusNecros]

A majority of bowser is punishing for mistakes.

Which is why people scream at our fortress.

 

[S_B]

I ****ing love DK, by the way. But that's another subject.

Same. I love all heavyweights.

I think we have to remember not to be too hard on ol' Bowser. Who knows? Maybe he'll get DK-like monster patch himself someday. We have to remember that he's a fine character, though. He just has his pitfalls like ALL characters. And, at the end of the day, are approaches really THAT important? I mean, they definitely are important. But, a character can still be good without them (I'm sort of looking at you, Luigi).

Oh, I don't mean to rag on Bowser at all. The way I see it, Bowser is pretty much balanced. He has a great toolkit, but he loses to characters that have a great toolkit + something else that gives them an edge.

I think the hoohaa (which Weegee has via nado) is enough to give Bowser everything he needs (maybe a few tweaks here and there).

The reason DK's hoohaa is such a great tool is because it gives DK a chance to suddenly and abruptly bounce back from an otherwise losing battle. It also gives characters a reason to respect him, which he didn't really have before.

I think those two things would put Bowser right where he needs to be, and given that Sakurai has been buffing HWs by giving them things like kill throws and combo throws (aka Zard), I too am hopeful.

Bowser just needs tweaking. Which is really what this thread was originally about. Let's not bash him, let's try to figure out how he could be improved. And, really, he's not low tier. We need to at least get that straight...

That's why I said "mid to trash".

I've not found anything that looks like a reliable tier list that covers tiers below A tier. It's just kind of confused below that...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Needs more tough guy buffs.

 

[S_B]

Needs more tough guy buffs.

If only it worked on Sheik's needles...

 

[LRodC]

Bowser isn't unviable, but he and Dedede have been getting more ignored than other heavyweights who have received tons of great buffs to make them more viable characters. He just could use some buffs here and there to really solidify him as a "good enough" character to a "good to great" character. There are certainly characters that could use even more than him, and Bowser doesn't need a ton to be viable. I think a Klaw hitbox buff, a buffed grab game, and a fire breath lag reduction would be enough for him. He doesn't need any buffs to attack speed or power. That's fine as is, IMO. Tough Guy buffs would be the icing on the cake, but he doesn't need buffs to it to be viable.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If only it worked on Sheik's needles...

All it needs to do really.

 

[LRodC]

All it needs to do really.

I think we can all agree that Sheik needs a Diddy/Greninja type nerf. I always thought she was better than Diddy even when hoo-hah existed. Everybody was complaining about Diddy though, so she got less exposure.

 

[Xandercosm]

Same. I love all heavyweights.

YUS!

That's why I said "mid to trash".

I've not found anything that looks like a reliable tier list that covers tiers below A tier. It's just kind of confused below that...

I've been waiting for someone to say that. It's because of Smash 4 itself, really. The game is very balanced and (technically) all the characters are POSSIBLY viable. Personally, I love that the game is so balanced. Not that it couldn't be more but it's pretty good. Honestly, I think A tier is probably the most reliable, like you said (still it has its randomness). I'd say, for Smash 4, we shouldn't even try to put characters below A tier in tiers at all.

 

[S_B]

I've been waiting for someone to say that. It's because of Smash 4 itself, really. The game is very balanced and (technically) all the characters are POSSIBLY viable. Personally, I love that the game is so balanced. Not that it couldn't be more but it's pretty good. Honestly, I think A tier is probably the most reliable, like you said (still it has its randomness). I'd say, for Smash 4, we shouldn't even try to put characters below A tier in tiers at all.

I definitely think that SSB4 is, by far, the most balanced of all the games to date (even before balance patches).

There's still some tweaking that needs to happen, but thankfully there aren't many cases of characters COMPLETELY invalidating other characters (ala Melee and Brawl...).

 

[Xandercosm]

I definitely think that SSB4 is, by far, the most balanced of all the games to date (even before balance patches).

There's still some tweaking that needs to happen, but thankfully there aren't many cases of characters COMPLETELY invalidating other characters (ala Melee and Brawl...).

Yup. That's what I love about Smash 4.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If I hate anything about this game it's how DLC characters get no custom moves and are therefore already outclassed.

And with Mewtwo he will always be outclassed. Bowser might be one of the few matchups Mewtwo can win and even then it is pretty close.

And the fact Omega stages have no platforms and really favor any dweeb with a projectile. And we don't really have anything to counter that except do as Ganon does and Powershield.

 

[pitfall356]

haha imagine if Dsmash actually reflected projectiles haha

 

[Xandercosm]

If I hate anything about this game it's how DLC characters get no custom moves and are therefore already outclassed.

And with Mewtwo he will always be outclassed. Bowser might be one of the few matchups Mewtwo can win and even then it is pretty close.

And the fact Omega stages have no platforms and really favor any dweeb with a projectile. And we don't really have anything to counter that except do as Ganon does and Powershield.

Well, it would be cool if you could add your own platforms to any omega stage wherever you want. Also, specials are barely allowed in tournaments. So how does that even matter?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well, it would be cool if you could add your own platforms to any omega stage wherever you want. Also, specials are barely allowed in tournaments. So how does that even matter?

It's just a gripe I have.

On the same token since DLC characters have no customs that will serve to push the no customs thing.

 

[conTAgi0n]

It seems like the only moves everyone agrees to be deficient are nair, dthrow, and dsmash. Firebreath and klaw need improvements but are already good for at least some purposes.

In other words all of Bowser's tools considered in isolation are pretty good, or at least their shortcomings are balanced by their strengths. The problem is that considered collectively they have some blindspots that are just a little too wide for Bowser to penetrate high tier.

So the question then is, what are his blindspots, and what moves could be adapted to help cover them?

• Bowser's weakness to camping is something that pisses off even casuals, and it's a good argument for making firebreath safer in my opinion. If firebreath were less punishable, then sh fb against campers could be useful.
• Bowser's inability to interrupt strings is another common complaint. Towards that end it sounds he needs to be able to throw out some faster/safer/higher priority aerial hitboxes. Fair and nair are the obvious candidates.
• Bowser's lack of safe landing options has come up here sometimes, and it was one of two big weaknesses Zero cited for Bowser in that video on mid tiers he did. The obvious solution is improving landing lag on fair and nair. Maybe bair and dair could have their landing lag toned down a little, but they hit so hard that it would be kind of silly if they were much safer on landing.
• Finally the idea of giving him better throw follow ups is popular. The trick is to do this without making Bowser kind of broken. Look at how improved DK is from his new cargo throw uair combo. Bowser's uair hits harder and kills earlier than DK's. dthrow does not send foes at an angle conducive to uair, so maybe turning that into a combo throw rather than improving uthrow would be best. Reducing the knockback and lowering the faf on dthrow would make for an easy fair followup, which would be extremely useful.

So based on those ideas, what would make most sense for Bowser would be making firebreath less punishable, perhaps giving nair some faster, higher priority hitboxes, decrease landing lag on nair and fair, and make dthrow a combo throw. To address what is probably the most common complaint, improve the hitbox of klaw. And to make everything in his toolkit useful, perhaps also give dsmash some kind of buff (I still like the vacuum idea).

Those changes combined still aren't going to solve all of Bowser's problems completely, but that's a good thing. Every character has to have some weaknesses after all. We just need Bowser's to be a little less glaring at high level play.

 

[VioletSmashfan]

I'd love for it if Bowser had his B-Air landing lag shorten a bit, it bugs me whenever I try short hopping with it and he stays still for a few seconds, other than that he's fine, although maybe a few combo strings would be a nice treat as well.