Which of these buffs would be enough to make Bowser a tournament threat?

[pitfall356]

If you want Nair buffed, take a look at the move. It can deal 20%. I want it buffed too but as it is now it deals a ton of damage.

I think Bowser would benefit from landing options the most. It's just so difficult trying to fix Bowser without breaking him.

 

[Xandercosm]

Also, obviously Bowsercide needs to come back.

 

[MagiusNecros]

They won't fix it because of Magicant though. So we lose like half of our intimidating presence in a battle since players who know about our current weakness can use our own move against us.

 

[Xandercosm]

They won't fix it because of Magicant though. So we lose like half of our intimidating presence in a battle since players who know about our current weakness can use our own move against us.

What was the glitch with Magicant again?

 

[S_B]

In my opinion, Bowser deserves reduced landing lag on almost all of his moves.

Here's an idea that might be good for all heavies period: when they land on the stage (just regular landing), their screen-shaking impact emits a small shockwave which hits for 1% around them, either that or it'll be a windbox on landing that pushes foes back so it's not stupidly easy to run in and punish them for just trying to land on the damn stage.

If you want Nair buffed, take a look at the move. It can deal 20%. I want it buffed too but as it is now it deals a ton of damage.

I'd rather it did 5% and came out instantly to free us from combos. Nair is so bizarrely situational that I just never see a good time to use it.

If it pushed people downward like Weegee's 'nado, then it'd be an amazing edgeguarding tool. As it sits, the damage is nice, but there's almost always a better option and its landing lag is horrendous.

 

[Xandercosm]

Windbox FTW.

 

[S_B]

What was the glitch with Magicant again?

I can't find the video now, but if Bowser klawed the flying man and then went off the stage, he and the flying man would stay stuck at the bottom of the screen forever because the flying man couldn't die that way.

Their solution was to make Bowser die first. So basically, Bowsercide was ruined for the sake of the ****ing flying man (and maybe Nabbit).

 

[Xandercosm]

Wow. They should have just made it so you can't klaw flying man at all. How dumb are they???

 

[Zethoro]

Fix Bowsercide so it works like Ganoncide (Not like pre-1.0.4 though because stages like Delfino become the instant go to CPs for free stocks), give him a combo throw that works past 0%, and give him PM Bowser Bomb, being able to cancel after the upward hit.
Also, remove that atrocious landing lag on his hard landing. Seriously, why does that exist?

 

[TehMud]

I also strongly feel D-Smash NEEDS a windbox to suck people in. As of now it's just kinda useless because of the endlag. I'd rather use Fortress to punish a dodge.

With a windbox DSmash would be a much better option and something opponents would actually have to avoid rather than standing a couple inches away and immediately punishing.

 

[LRodC]

I would like Bowser to get a kill throw and a combo throw, similar to Charizard. Up throw could have reduced knockback and combo into a forward or up air, and forward or down throw could be a kill throw that knocks the opponent horizontally. This would make his grab game much better. I would also fix the hitboxes on Fire Breath and make it more safe (possibly reduce lag too), and I would decrease the lag on his n-air. He's not a character that needs too much, but a couple of these buffs would go a long way.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dthrow should bury honestly. I mean we are the heaviest no?

 

[S_B]

Dthrow should bury honestly. I mean we are the heaviest no?

Imagine if down throw had bomb as a guaranteed follow up...

no really, just imagine it...

 

[EarthBound18]

Imagine if down throw had bomb as a guaranteed follow up...

no really, just imagine it...

Or even Forward Smash.

 

[LRodC]

That's likely why it doesn't bury. If it was going to bury, I think it would just be for a visual effect like Lucas' down throw or just bury for a very short time like Wii Fit Trainer's jab. Not something on the level of DK's side B or a pitfall.

 

[Xandercosm]

Imagine if down throw had bomb as a guaranteed follow up...

no really, just imagine it...

**** that would be awesome...

 

[MagiusNecros]

That's likely why it doesn't bury. If it was going to bury, I think it would just be for a visual effect like Lucas' down throw or just bury for a very short time like Wii Fit Trainer's jab. Not something on the level of DK's side B or a pitfall.

Bury for a short time is all we need though.

 

[pitfall356]

dthrow to bomb is why it doesn't bury.

Being able to cancel bomb on the way up removes the risk/reward for the move because you can just cancel it if it misses. The hit on the way up is supposed to ensure the move works correctly - I think that's enough for it.

Bowser hits HARD. He's not necessarily slow, it's just that his attacks don't come out as fast as other characters. Those that do, have considerable endlag. If they didn't, Bowser would be OP because he'd have super safe attacks that KO ridiculously early.
**** that ****.

You want a move to do X? Make sure there's something taking away from it. Nair comes out faster? It better deal less damage. uthrow leads to consistent combos? It's probably going to deal less damage, and as a result our aerials might even deal less damage (I don't want that!). Bowser Bomb can be cancelled on the way up? Goodbye, rising hit - or maybe even shield breaking power.

The only move I can honestly say deserves a straight buff is klaw, and that's just to fix the hitboxes - nothing else. Always remember to keep balance in mind with buffs and remember that we have a character that with a slight tweak could shoot straight to top tier. Perhaps they're all that way - but without changes in damage and kill power to compensate for changes, he becomes unstoppable.

All this stated, I'd like to see some buffs to his firebreath to make it less painful on whiff (or hit). I'd like a combo breaker. I wouldn't mind some tweaks to his armor. Throw combos would be appreciated.

May god have mercy on the man that gets his dthrow to bomb combo. rip jigglypuff at 60% the second that grab connects.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The only move I can honestly say deserves a straight buff is klaw, and that's just to fix the hitboxes - nothing else. Always remember to keep balance in mind with buffs and remember that we have a character that with a slight tweak could shoot straight to top tier. Perhaps they're all that way - but without changes in damage and kill power to compensate for changes, he becomes unstoppable.

You still want Bowser to die first even though he is on top of thing and you want your opponent to survive and laugh at you? Sounds legit.

Never made sense to me.

The fact that they completely changed 2 of Charizard's throws to the point you only need to jab 15 times and fish for a an Up Throw and the notion that Sheik has low power but has a safe everything alongside one of the best if not the best projectile in the game which also happens to be invisible and one where our complete ass mechanic that is Tough Guy doesn't even work against.

Furthermore Ganondorf can now kill anything that breathes at the edge at sub 70% with his new revamped Dsmash no questions asked.

And we have to remember being buried and taking a big attack that launches has it's own launch power decreased by around 20%. I do it all the time if I eat a Headbutt from DK and just eat his punch. Often being weak enough to not kill with proper DI.

It wouldn't be as obnoxious as a Sinking Skull > Blast Burn. If the opponent stood still long enough for it to work.

But let's be honest if they refuse to fix Klaw what future does a non customs Bowser have? It is still bugged and the hitboxes are still ass. At this point if you see a opp attack to throw it out you play a bigger risk then it needs to be since you let everything be decided by a coin flip. And even if you do connect you won't ever use the move if you aren't ahead since they can use your own move against you.

And if no customs is a very likely thing for future tourneys Bowser won't have much more room to grow other then being a better player then the guy using another character that can roflstomp you because you were too fat.

 

[MrEh]

At this point, the air Klaw's only use is to punish people who think that you're going to fall on them with an aerial. It doesn't even do that right half the time, since the hitbox is so small.

I use Klaw more often to change directions in the air compared to actually hitting people with it. That's... pretty depressing actually.

 

[LRodC]

I'll be honest right off the bat, I don't use Bowser as much as any of you, but I was thinking of picking him up soon. You guys probably know more about him than I do, but I wanted to address this anyway.

I'm not sure what problem you guys have with Flying Slam. Aside from hitbox issues, I think the move is fine as is. It beats shields, it's more powerful than any of Bowser's throws, and it KOs reasonably early with rage. You can move closer to the blast line and hit platforms with it as well to kill even earlier. I don't think it was ever intended to be a guaranteed "Bowser wins" suicide move like Ganoncide, as it would probably be pretty risk free if it was to stay like that. Ganoncide at least has some risk attached to it since it leaves Ganon in free fall (although ledge camping with him is stupid), but Bowsercide would have none.

What would you guys want out of the attack?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'll be honest right off the bat, I don't use Bowser as much as any of you, but I was thinking of picking him up soon. You guys probably know more about him than I do, but I wanted to address this anyway.

I'm not sure what problem you guys have with Flying Slam. Aside from hitbox issues, I think the move is fine as is. It beats shields, it's more powerful than any of Bowser's throws, and it KOs reasonably early with rage. You can move closer to the blast line and hit platforms with it as well to kill even earlier. I don't think it was ever intended to be a guaranteed "Bowser wins" suicide move like Ganoncide, as it would probably be pretty risk free if it was to stay like that. Ganoncide at least has some risk attached to it since it leaves Ganon in free fall (although ledge camping with him is stupid), but Bowsercide would have none.

What would you guys want out of the attack?

The problem is very simple. The hitbox is crap. And the end result offstage is inconsistent. Half the time Bowser dies first and the opponent dies second or can recover and be fine. Half the time both players die.

That's the problems right there.

 

[MrEh]

What would you guys want out of the attack?

Did you ever see what Klaw was like in Melee and Brawl?

 

[LRodC]

The problem is very simple. The hitbox is crap. And the end result offstage is inconsistent. Half the time Bowser dies first and the opponent dies second or can recover and be fine. Half the time both players die.

That's the problems right there.

Isn't it programmed so that Bowser always dies first? Regardless of what it does, it never KOs the opponent first, and it usually isn't worth the risk to use off stage unless you're trying to land it on an opponent who is trying to edge guard you to try and save yourself.

Despite the faulty programming, I don't think it's worth the risk to use off stage at all. It's obviously intended now to be an attack to use on the ground. The hitbox problems should be fixed though.

Did you ever see what Klaw was like in Melee and Brawl?

Wasn't Melee's Koopa Klaw completely different? And in Brawl, wasn't it the same but with less knockback and the ability to suicide?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Isn't it programmed so that Bowser always dies first? Regardless of what it does, it never KOs the opponent first, and it usually isn't worth the risk to use off stage unless you're trying to land it on an opponent who is trying to edge guard you to try and save yourself.

Despite the faulty programming, I don't think it's worth the risk to use off stage at all. It's obviously intended now to be an attack to use on the ground. The hitbox problems should be fixed though.


Wasn't Melee's Koopa Klaw completely different? And in Brawl, wasn't it the same but with less knockback and the ability to suicide?

Klaw Bowsercide will result in Sudden Death, seemingly at random, on most stages. Otherwise, yes, Bowser just dies 1st.

Klaw in Melee was slow, but had a good grab box. Its back throw function would kill even earlier than the flying slam version at the edge of FD. Klaw in Brawl had a ridiculously good aerial grab box. It extended farther beneath Bowser at an angle than FAir and had almost the same horizontal range. It was reliable, and allowed for much stronger horizontal aerial spacing.

 

[MagiusNecros]

And the main reason why Flying Slam changed at all was the Flying Men gimmick in Magicant.

So now we have a move that has Bowser on top of his opponent die first even though logically the opponent would hit the blast zone first.

Not to mention both Bowser who is the heaviest and has the biggest muscles in the game and his opponent are fighting each other for control of where you are landing.

 

[MrEh]

Wasn't Melee's Koopa Klaw completely different? And in Brawl, wasn't it the same but with less knockback and the ability to suicide?

Melee Klaw had a hit portion, but it's the grab portion that made the move good. Amazing move for platform pressure or shieldgrab baiting when you fall on your opponent.

Brawl Klaw was an insane footsie tool because Klaw hopping was a thing. It was also amazing at zoning because the hitbox was utterly massive and the move beat almost everything.


The thing about Smash4 Klaw is that the hitbox is so utterly tiny that it's a terrible move. Not only that, the hitxbox is only active for 1 frame in this game. It was essentially active 3x as long in the previous games. Considering how landing on people's shields was a huge part of Klaw usage before, this is a huggge nerf in this game. Pretty unwarranted since Bowser was trash in both melee and brawl.

Klaw doesn't even punish shields well in Smash 4. The range of Klaw is so small that you have to literally be humping your opponent for Klaw to hit. If you're in a situation where your opponent is right in front of Bowser's face, you opponent is obligated to mash normals because they will always beat Bowser out at that kind of spacing.

 

[Xandercosm]

WAIT GUYS! This means something. I think that we've all just come to a consensus about what buff Bowser needs. A buff to Klaw!

Booyah, baby!

 

[Cronoc]

I'd take a klaw hitbox fix and super armor during activation and the active frame... But I'd take just about any improvement right now.

 

[pitfall356]

Give Bowser complete control over klaw trajectory and make him die second means that all a Bowser would have to do is fish for klaw until game is over. We got a super nerf and Bowser had less control and died second, meaning it was suddenly a suicide "attack". Now Bowser has more control, but can lose control at higher percents, and dies second. At least it was recognized that they went overboard on the klaw nerf.

From a casual perspective, the attack is OP because players can just keep using klaw to win, and you guys gotta understand that the casual community is an actual thing that Sakurai pays attention to. In teamfights and ffa, you can land on other players to deal damage to them, which I'm sure is a balance factor they keep in mind (not that it matters to what we do). I personally don't want a win tool - I grabbed with klaw, you die first and I have complete control! It's ****ing ridiculous. I don't want to win a match because I land two grabs.

Either Bowser should have less control over klaw but die second, or he should have control and die first. All that power in one tool is OP. Fix the hitboxes and I'd say klaw is fine. As stated before, it deals great damage and kills at reasonable percents - even moreso with platforms. Explain to me why we need it to be the perfect suicide tool.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Doesn't need to be perfect. Just needs an actual hitbox and a consistent result. End of ****ing discussion.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah, I have to say, I would prefer having Bowsercide back over complete control. That was what made the move so nuanced and interesting. At high level play, you had to be really on the ball to get the Bowsercide. Nothing about it was guaranteed or OP. It was a move that the opponent, if skilled, could escape from but when you used it strategically, you could get some well-earned wins.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It also intimidated opponents to stay away from the edge. Covering Bowser's weakness of getting spiked.

We don't have a fear factor anymore.

And that hurts us.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yup. They should really bring Bowsercide back. I think that statement sums the whole issue up neatly.

 

[pitfall356]

Fix Klaw's hitboxes for sure and think about a better way to deal with Bowsercide. Obviously the system now and the system at launch isn't quite right. I think the best course of action would be to make enemies enter freefall when they are let go of after Bowser dies. This ensures that all characters grabbed can't recover when Bowser dies first, as well as covering up other problems/potential exploits. The Flying Man glitch doesn't stick around, people grabbed can't just jump back to stage (covering up some sad MUs), Bowser can't use a win move when he's on his last stock, etc etc. I honestly think this is the most balanced klaw change we could make and would overall fix all issues as long as the current priority system is left in place.

Bowser needs more than a suicide tool to fix him up into a tournament threat, though. The rest of the changes have been stated in this thread and I'm going to list them off in no particular order.

Firebreath is an insane zoning tool that we can't use properly due to the very large punish window - even when it doesn't whiff. It also decays quickly and is kinda small - Charizards firebreath is much better imo. Some small tweaks to firebreath would really go a long way.

Tough Guy is an inconsistent mess. Rework him so he has constant armor against certain attacks (preferably ranged ones) or make it more concrete so that it isn't affected by rage and current %. Make it something we can keep in mind and take advantage of when an opponent tries to wall us out with weak attacks or ranged nuisances (I'm looking at you, Falco.)

Shellguard on all shell attacks is a questionable move - Grounded Fortress is his best OoS option, deals nice damage and comes out faster than his jab. It's reliable, has plenty of hitboxes and lasts plenty long for punishing dodges and even landing options! Dair is a wonky move in the way it works but it already has plenty of killpower and lots of priority. People often respect dair and punish later, although only a few characters have moves Bowser must respect when it comes to dair. For some reason I can't fathom a buff to dair.

Finally, Dsmash. Basically, a stronger version of Fortress that doesn't move but has more range and killpower. Hitboxes stop coming out sooner resulting in a higher endlag and is overall considered one of his worst moves. I've gotten some disgusting edgeguards with it and if you can read a dodge or landing option it's a reliable kill move - even moreso after the buff it got. However, it's easily punishable and still isn't that great. Drag out the hitboxes so that you're dealing damage for longer, or add more hitboxes and decrease each one's damage so that it has more active frames. Furthermore, a windbox would be helpful to pull in enemies that try to stand just outside range. Finally, concerning shellguard: I could see this move having it. Fortress already moves and has more active frames - perhaps trading maneuverability and active frames for damage and armor wouldn't be a bad idea, giving us options for different situations.

Uthrow being a more consistent combo throw would be nice. Bowser already has great grab range (sweet jesus that pivot grab), so a change like this would be nice. Decrease the damage of uthrow to, say, 4-6%? At 0% it might combo into nair but after that it should be a DI choice of whether you need to fair or uair for the combo.
Dthrow forcing a tech chase situation would also be cool, as it would allow for more mindgames concerning "is he going for the combo or do I need to choose a get up option?" These changes would give Bowser an unparalleled throw game (Since we already have Bthrow the kill move when we have suitable rage (rip Ness)) which can be considered overpowered and we'd have to pick and choose buffs of this caliber.

Fixing jabs so that Jab 1 leads to jab 2 every time sounds nice, same goes for fixing the rising hit of Dspecial. Making it so that fortress doesn't spit out enemies at higher % before the final hitbox actually launches them would be nice - I can't count the number of times they fly across the stage in a trip animation during fortress, robbing me of valuable % as well as positioning advantage (ESPECIALLY on zoners!).

Anything else I should add to this list? I don't want to be missing a single reasonable point or idea.

 

[Xandercosm]

Fix Klaw's hitboxes for sure and think about a better way to deal with Bowsercide. Obviously the system now and the system at launch isn't quite right. I think the best course of action would be to make enemies enter freefall when they are let go of after Bowser dies. This ensures that all characters grabbed can't recover when Bowser dies first, as well as covering up other problems/potential exploits. The Flying Man glitch doesn't stick around, people grabbed can't just jump back to stage (covering up some sad MUs), Bowser can't use a win move when he's on his last stock, etc etc. I honestly think this is the most balanced klaw change we could make and would overall fix all issues as long as the current priority system is left in place.

Bowser needs more than a suicide tool to fix him up into a tournament threat, though. The rest of the changes have been stated in this thread and I'm going to list them off in no particular order.

Firebreath is an insane zoning tool that we can't use properly due to the very large punish window - even when it doesn't whiff. It also decays quickly and is kinda small - Charizards firebreath is much better imo. Some small tweaks to firebreath would really go a long way.

Tough Guy is an inconsistent mess. Rework him so he has constant armor against certain attacks (preferably ranged ones) or make it more concrete so that it isn't affected by rage and current %. Make it something we can keep in mind and take advantage of when an opponent tries to wall us out with weak attacks or ranged nuisances (I'm looking at you, Falco.)

Shellguard on all shell attacks is a questionable move - Grounded Fortress is his best OoS option, deals nice damage and comes out faster than his jab. It's reliable, has plenty of hitboxes and lasts plenty long for punishing dodges and even landing options! Dair is a wonky move in the way it works but it already has plenty of killpower and lots of priority. People often respect dair and punish later, although only a few characters have moves Bowser must respect when it comes to dair. For some reason I can't fathom a buff to dair.

Finally, Dsmash. Basically, a stronger version of Fortress that doesn't move but has more range and killpower. Hitboxes stop coming out sooner resulting in a higher endlag and is overall considered one of his worst moves. I've gotten some disgusting edgeguards with it and if you can read a dodge or landing option it's a reliable kill move - even moreso after the buff it got. However, it's easily punishable and still isn't that great. Drag out the hitboxes so that you're dealing damage for longer, or add more hitboxes and decrease each one's damage so that it has more active frames. Furthermore, a windbox would be helpful to pull in enemies that try to stand just outside range. Finally, concerning shellguard: I could see this move having it. Fortress already moves and has more active frames - perhaps trading maneuverability and active frames for damage and armor wouldn't be a bad idea, giving us options for different situations.

Uthrow being a more consistent combo throw would be nice. Bowser already has great grab range (sweet jesus that pivot grab), so a change like this would be nice. Decrease the damage of uthrow to, say, 4-6%? At 0% it might combo into nair but after that it should be a DI choice of whether you need to fair or uair for the combo.
Dthrow forcing a tech chase situation would also be cool, as it would allow for more mindgames concerning "is he going for the combo or do I need to choose a get up option?" These changes would give Bowser an unparalleled throw game (Since we already have Bthrow the kill move when we have suitable range (rip Ness)) which can be considered overpowered and we'd have to pick and choose buffs of this caliber.

Fixing jabs so that Jab 1 leads to jab 2 every time sounds nice, same goes for fixing the rising hit of Dspecial. Making it so that fortress doesn't spit out enemies at higher % before the final hitbox actually launches them would be nice - I can't count the number of times they fly across the stage in a trip animation during fortress, robbing me of valuable % as well as positioning advantage (ESPECIALLY on zoners!).

Anything else I should add to this list? I don't want to be missing a single reasonable point or idea.

I actually think that's a pretty smart list. Nice.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Fix Klaw's hitboxes for sure and think about a better way to deal with Bowsercide. Obviously the system now and the system at launch isn't quite right. I think the best course of action would be to make enemies enter freefall when they are let go of after Bowser dies. This ensures that all characters grabbed can't recover when Bowser dies first, as well as covering up other problems/potential exploits. The Flying Man glitch doesn't stick around, people grabbed can't just jump back to stage (covering up some sad MUs), Bowser can't use a win move when he's on his last stock, etc etc. I honestly think this is the most balanced klaw change we could make and would overall fix all issues as long as the current priority system is left in place.

Bowser needs more than a suicide tool to fix him up into a tournament threat, though. The rest of the changes have been stated in this thread and I'm going to list them off in no particular order.

Firebreath is an insane zoning tool that we can't use properly due to the very large punish window - even when it doesn't whiff. It also decays quickly and is kinda small - Charizards firebreath is much better imo. Some small tweaks to firebreath would really go a long way.

Tough Guy is an inconsistent mess. Rework him so he has constant armor against certain attacks (preferably ranged ones) or make it more concrete so that it isn't affected by rage and current %. Make it something we can keep in mind and take advantage of when an opponent tries to wall us out with weak attacks or ranged nuisances (I'm looking at you, Falco.)

Shellguard on all shell attacks is a questionable move - Grounded Fortress is his best OoS option, deals nice damage and comes out faster than his jab. It's reliable, has plenty of hitboxes and lasts plenty long for punishing dodges and even landing options! Dair is a wonky move in the way it works but it already has plenty of killpower and lots of priority. People often respect dair and punish later, although only a few characters have moves Bowser must respect when it comes to dair. For some reason I can't fathom a buff to dair.

Finally, Dsmash. Basically, a stronger version of Fortress that doesn't move but has more range and killpower. Hitboxes stop coming out sooner resulting in a higher endlag and is overall considered one of his worst moves. I've gotten some disgusting edgeguards with it and if you can read a dodge or landing option it's a reliable kill move - even moreso after the buff it got. However, it's easily punishable and still isn't that great. Drag out the hitboxes so that you're dealing damage for longer, or add more hitboxes and decrease each one's damage so that it has more active frames. Furthermore, a windbox would be helpful to pull in enemies that try to stand just outside range. Finally, concerning shellguard: I could see this move having it. Fortress already moves and has more active frames - perhaps trading maneuverability and active frames for damage and armor wouldn't be a bad idea, giving us options for different situations.

Uthrow being a more consistent combo throw would be nice. Bowser already has great grab range (sweet jesus that pivot grab), so a change like this would be nice. Decrease the damage of uthrow to, say, 4-6%? At 0% it might combo into nair but after that it should be a DI choice of whether you need to fair or uair for the combo.
Dthrow forcing a tech chase situation would also be cool, as it would allow for more mindgames concerning "is he going for the combo or do I need to choose a get up option?" These changes would give Bowser an unparalleled throw game (Since we already have Bthrow the kill move when we have suitable rage (rip Ness)) which can be considered overpowered and we'd have to pick and choose buffs of this caliber.

Fixing jabs so that Jab 1 leads to jab 2 every time sounds nice, same goes for fixing the rising hit of Dspecial. Making it so that fortress doesn't spit out enemies at higher % before the final hitbox actually launches them would be nice - I can't count the number of times they fly across the stage in a trip animation during fortress, robbing me of valuable % as well as positioning advantage (ESPECIALLY on zoners!).

Anything else I should add to this list? I don't want to be missing a single reasonable point or idea.

I like everything said here. And that would fix Klaw nicely.

However as far as Shellguard is concerned I think of his 4 shell attacks it should only proc on initial start up. Like first 1-3 frames. I mean Upsmash has top priority so I don't see why not.

Would also want a bit more shield damage on Dair since if blocked we get to sit on our shell for a long time.

I'm not asking for flat out intangibility. You should see the **** we can do against max Aura Spheres and Shadow Balls with Bowser Bomb. Or my favorite Bair.

 

[pitfall356]

I totally forgot to mention that Bowser's Dair has a spike box that lasts much longer than any other spike in the game. Do we really need it buffed?

 

[LRodC]

I'm a Charizard user. For Charizard, Flamethrower is an important tool that allows for easy damage off the ledge and it's great for walling out characters without projectiles. What makes Bowser's that much worse? Does it have more lag?

 

[pitfall356]

After some comparisons, Charizard's fire starts three frames sooner and ends 7 frames sooner. However, it doesn't have as much damage potential - it pushes enemies away more than Bowser's fire does and seems to decay faster. Zard is faster to change his angle while breathing, too.

The biggest difference is that Zard's fire ALWAYS flinches opponents if it damages them, while Bowser's fire doesn't flinch near the edge of it's range. Bowser's is better for damage output but it's too slow to recover and can be punished on hit. I would assume Zard's fire pushing enemies away further makes it harder to punish.